Latest / NO FILTER / Woman decapitates ex after marrying stepson in fatal love triangle(MP3_160K)

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Woman decapitates ex after marrying stepson in fatal love triangle(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: A word of warning. This podcast explores graphic and disturbing
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: stories and includes some strong language. It therefore may not
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: may find it disturbing. Hello and welcome to True Crime News,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the podcast covering high profile and under the radar cases
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: from across the country every week. I'm your host, Anna Garcia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Our case this week. It is the messiest love triangle yet.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: A former adult film actress is charged with beheading the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: father of her children. But at the time that she
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: allegedly killed her baby daddy, she was married to that
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  Speaker 1: man's son. According to prosecutors, she had started a sexual
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: relationship with the man's son when the son was a teenager.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Now hold on, because there's more here. Prosecutors say that
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: she was trying to reconcile with her father in law
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to regain custody of the two children that she had
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: with him. Okay, we have an update on this case.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: After we recorded this podcast, the jury deliberated for two
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: hours and came back with a guilty verdict. Devin Michaels
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: was convicted of first degree murder. We can't wait to
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  Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on this one. We are recording this
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  Speaker 1: on Friday, November fourteenth of twenty twenty five. Our guest
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: today is Elennie marcantonis a clinical and forensic psychologist who
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: has testified as an expert witness on behalf of the
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: state of New Jersey in numerous criminal cases, and she
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: has also worked as a clinical supervisor at Rikers Island,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: one of the toughest correctional facilities in the country. Elenni,
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. It's great to thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on the show.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. For those of you who are regulars, Elenni is
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: a new contributor and guest. I met Elenni at my
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  Speaker 1: godson's home at a dinner party. We started talking about
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: life and crime and on which you told me your background.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you've got to come on this podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Yeah. This story is absolutely fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: It has all the elements of a sensational case, an
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: adult film star, a very bizarre love triangle, beheading. It's
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: really really remarkable. You know, when I look at a
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: case like this, I often think about, what are the
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: decisions and the experiences that led this woman to be
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: in a room with her ex boyfriend and allegedly bludgeons
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: him and beheads him. Like, what happened? How did we
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: get here? This is why I find cases like this
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: so fascinating, just to get a real rundown of what happened?
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  Speaker 2: What were you thinking?
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  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what she was thinking. Clearly,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: she was not thinking. Clearly, all three of them were
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: not thinking. This is absolutely dysfunctional. You know, you're in
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: a relationship with man, you have children with him, then
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: you start a relationship with his son. You are not
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: in any way related to him biologically, but nonetheless you're
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the adult here.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes.
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  Speaker 1: And then you marry that man. And I just the
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: whole thing is insane.
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  Speaker 2: It is insane. And you know, from you know, from
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: a forensic perspective, you know, we would look at how
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: to construct motive intentions here, and what we really look
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: at is what are the relationship dynamics? What are these
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: relationships really like? What is the relationship between her and
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: the stepsum You know it was sexual, it wasn't sexual.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: He said it was, and he said it wasn't. What
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: was the current relationship between her and Jonathan? Clearly it
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: was not good. I mean, she had lost custody of
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: her kids. She was obviously felt angry about this. I'm
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: assuming he was going to move back in with her,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, really interesting because he's moving in
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: with his son who was her husband.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I know, we need an ORG chart for.
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  Speaker 2: This, Yeah, we really do, really because it's.
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  Speaker 1: So hard to follow, and we're going to do our
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: best here to make it as easy as possible for
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: you to follow. There are three main people involved in
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: this love triangle. Involved in this case, so the accused
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: here is a former adult film actress, Devin Michael, who
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: is forty seven years old, and she is currently on
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  Speaker 1: trial for the murder of her baby daddy, her ex boyfriend.
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  Speaker 1: They never married, Jonathan Willett, who was forty six years
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  Speaker 1: old at the time of his death. They had two
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: girls together. Again never married. However, she did marry his son,
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  Speaker 1: Deveri Willlett, who is now twenty nine years old, and
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: she reportedly started a sexual relationship with the son while
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: she was with the father, and she when she was
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: still married to the son, that is when she's accused
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: of killing his father and decapitating him. Police say that
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  Speaker 1: she killed Jonathan, so she could get custody of their children,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and then she could be with his son without interference. Listen,
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  Speaker 1: this is one of the craziest and worst plans I've heard.
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  Speaker 1: It didn't work out for anybody here.
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  Speaker 2: No no one, no one, no one. No. Okay, it's yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And to complicate matters, as if it's possible to complicate
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  Speaker 1: this anymore, Devin had agreed to plead guilty to a
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: lesser charge to avoid trial. Okay. On the day that
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: this was to be sealed, meaning she was going to
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: be sentenced, she freaks out in court. She starts crying.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't like to always use the term hysterical,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: but I think it fits her demeanor that day. She
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: was undone. She was undone, unhinged, and she says, wait
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: a minute. I did not agree to this. I was
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  Speaker 1: forced into this. I am innocent. I didn't do it.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't do it. So then the prosecutor's like, well,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, what do you do. You cannot force someone
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: to take a plead deal that they've agreed to. The
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: judge couldn't force her, so they said, okay, then we're
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: going to trial her husband. Her husband, right, the victim's
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  Speaker 1: son he's already testified against her, he was on the stand,
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  Speaker 1: and he's not been charged in any way with the
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  Speaker 1: father's death. Now I am going to say, while he's
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: not been charged with anything, the man is for sure
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  Speaker 1: guilty of very bad judgment when it comes to this woman,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and who knows other things. I mean, everyone here is
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: guilty of bad judgment. The testimony has been fascinating, and
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: you know, we're going to get to the background of
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: this love triangle so we can figure out, you know, ELENNI,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: like you said, how did we get here? How did
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: we get to this point? But his testimony was very
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: troubling to me because he admitted multiple times on the
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: stand that he had lied to police. He said, you know,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: when his father is found murdered, right then they police
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: start talking to everyone, and he's obviously police are like,
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  Speaker 1: what do you mean you're married too, you know, exactly right.
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  Speaker 1: They're all like trying, they're all very confused, and he said, oh,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: it's a marriage of convenience. It's just for medical instruments purposes.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Then he tells police, no, no, we don't sleep in
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  Speaker 1: the same room. Oh no, we don't have a sexual relationship. Well,
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  Speaker 1: all of that is a lie. According to his most
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: current testimony, Yes they had a sexual relationship. Yes he's married,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Yes he's in the bed with her. What you know?
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: So what happens? And he also admitted on the stand
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that he lied to the grand jury, which is how
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: we ended up with this case going to trial, absolutely
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: with the indictment. So I'm I don't know how credible
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  Speaker 1: he is. He claims that the reason he lied is
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: because he was embarrassed.
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  Speaker 2: He claims he was embarrassed. He also said somewhere that
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: he only recently told his dad his dad found out
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  Speaker 2: that he was married to her.
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  Speaker 1: That's crazy. That doesn't make sense.
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  Speaker 2: If none of it made any sense whatsoever, He's clearly
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  Speaker 2: not credible. He's lying about the nature of their relationship, which,
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  Speaker 2: again from a forensic perspective, this is what I would
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: want to know. I would want to know what everyone's
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  Speaker 2: relationship really is, what everyone's really up to, what's everyone
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  Speaker 2: angling for? What does everyone what is? What does everyone want?
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  Speaker 1: Here?
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  Speaker 2: It seems like Devin wanted to have her life with Devier, right,
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  Speaker 2: That's what it's seem like. I don't know what he wanted.
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  Speaker 2: Did he want a life with her? Was he threatened
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  Speaker 2: by all of this. There's multiple ways that we can
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: look at this case right now. But you know, the
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  Speaker 2: reports also indicate though that he wasn't near the crime scene.
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  Speaker 2: But he definitely sounds he sounds afraid, and he sounds
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  Speaker 2: a poor judgment, and he's just been lying, lying, lying.
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  Speaker 1: Now, what's interesting about how the jury will view his
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: testimony is that the defense has clearly gone in very
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  Speaker 1: boldly from opening statements and said she didn't do it,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: but we believe that the son had motive. Now the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: man is not charged at all, But again the defense
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: has made it clear as far as from their position
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  Speaker 1: that he had motive, that he and his father didn't
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  Speaker 1: have a relationship, they didn't get along. He was about
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  Speaker 1: to be kicked out of the house. In order for
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  Speaker 1: her to regain some kind of custody or contact with
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  Speaker 1: her daughters, she would have to be with Jonathan, the
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  Speaker 1: victim here. So he lied about knowing that they were
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  Speaker 1: getting together. He lied about knowing that he was being
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  Speaker 1: pushed out of the house. I mean several things that
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  Speaker 1: he admitted on the stand that he lied about. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: just based on his testimony, he is not credible, No.
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  Speaker 2: He's not credible. And you know, I mean again, the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: police are going to try to put together a story
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: or the defense is going to try to put together story.
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  Speaker 2: Did he show up? There were they both involved in
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: some way? Who knows? But he's definitely not credible, And
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. This might really raise doubt in someone
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  Speaker 2: whether or not. She was very hysterical though during her sentencing,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: which is she's hysterical? It was, and I don't it
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: was a reaction to really being sentenced, really like, this
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  Speaker 2: is it? You did it? You agreed to this, this happened.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: She seems like she was shocked and panicked, So who knows?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Who knows? I would want to know more about these
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: people's personalities. In terms of her, I would really want
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: to know does she have a personality disorder? What is
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: her abuse history? Like? Why did she join the adult
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  Speaker 2: film industry? What led her to that career choice? You know,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: not everyone in the adult film ministry has an abuse history?
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: But did she have an abus history? Was she triggered?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Did she have PTSD? Again, none of this excuses, it
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: just explains, and most importantly, does she have psychopathy? Like
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I said, psychopathy is very underdiagnosed in women. You know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: psychopathy is someone who's cold calculated, someone who would have
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: planned something like this, perhaps doesn't have a lot of remorse,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: doesn't have any guilt, you know, can easily point the
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: finger at someone else. I'm not sure. I don't know.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Before we get in to the background on how we
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: got here, I just have one question, just from your perspective,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: as you know, an expert in this area, if three
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: people come to you, let's remove violence and let's remove
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: murder from this equation. And you see the dynamics of
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: a woman who's with a man, and while she's with him,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: she has babies, and then she starts a relationship with
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: that man's son and then marries that man's son. What
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: does this tell you about these.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Three very very dysfunctional family dynamics. Poor poor boundaries. You know,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: boundaries are what kind of keeps us together. It's knowing
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: right from wraw, it's not giving in to impulses. And
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: you know, there is some literature that will show that
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: in the adult film industry there's boundaries are very blurred.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: People leave the adult film industry and they have a
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: very different perception of the relationships and sex. So could
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: that play a role in these poor boundaries. Absolutely, absolutely,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you know, deviant themes in porn of sleeping with your
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: step son are not unusual. Does that yes? Does that
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: normalize it's deviant? But does that normalize it for her?
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: How's that? How has that informed her her boundaries? But
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: yet violence aside? If I had this family in my
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: office for some type of family therapy, I would start
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: by trying to figure out how they plan on all
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: being together because they can't.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Clearly they can't, and now they're not.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: They can't and now they're not, you know, and you
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: know if she and I would also want to know
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: what her relationship was with Jonathan. Was it? Clearly it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: was contentious. I mean, he got custody of the children,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: So why does he want to move back in with her? Like,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: if you've taken custody and you're clearly you don't like
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: this person, I'm assuming, why do you want to move
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: in with her?
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I well, I probably guess that he's very angry at
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: his own son for marrying his girlfriend. I'm mad, you're
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: mad at everybody. Everyone's angry at everyone. Yes, I've really
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: never seen anything to this level. We've had some very
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: close similar but man, This one is an unbelievable case.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the background on how we
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: got to this point. So, Devin Michaels initially found fame,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: made a name for herself as an adult film actress,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: working under the alias of Nikki Fairchild. After her adult
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: film career, then she started working as a realtor and
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: living in Las Vegas at the time of Jonathan's death. Okay,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: so Devon also went under the name of Tracy Tavares
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: for a period of time. Now, this to me, if
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: you are a true crime person, this is the part
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: that you just are like, what what? Okay? She was
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: once married to Robert Baker, a very famous male adult actor.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Hold On, and if that name sounds familiar, not because
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: of a porn video you've seen, but because you are
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: into true crime, you're gonna say, isn't that the very
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: same man who was convicted of murdering a celebrity hairstylist
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: in Los Angeles very recently by the name of Fabio Semonelli.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Is this not the same man who was in a relationship,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with this man's wife, Monica semon Telly.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: And were they not just convicted of plotting to murder
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: her husband for insurance money and to be together, and
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: they're both sitting in prison. This is this is this
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: is Devin's ex husband. Okay, so when I say an
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: org chart, I am not kidding here. Does this have
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: anything to do with anything? I don't know, but let
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: me you know, I don't believe in coincidence. There is
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: something very at the very least, this is all very
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: negative energy it is.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in coincidence either. However, what's interesting here
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: is that this was her exes her husband, right, husband.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know they have things in common for sure,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: but they pre boundaries. I mean, look at the poor
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: boundaries that this man and his wife did in killing
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: her ex. You know, poor boundaries, very impulsive, irresponsible, callous, no.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Remorse, no regard for human life, regard.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: For human life. Again, my brain is going to psychopathy.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Who does this? It's a lot more than just antisocial behavior.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: It is antisocial behavior, But are there elements of because
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: of the callousness? Are there elements of just psychopathy? And
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: these people and have they all just kind of attracted
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: each other? Oh?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I guess they do attract each other. I don't because
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: how else you can't function in a relationship if those
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: are your behaviors and how you deal with other people
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: in an interpersonal relationship, How does like, you know, a
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: fairly average person who's got their.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Own attached person going to show up in your life.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: They're not.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: You can't. It's like, this is we can't communicate like this,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: this is this is off the charts, nutty. Okay, Now
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: back to the history here. So Devin and Jonathan were
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: in a long term relationship, never married, had two girls,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and you know, while she's playing house with Jonathan, she
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: starts this relationship with his son, who was nineteen at
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the time. According to records, that would have been you know,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: just a few years before she actually ends up marrying him.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: She ends up marrying him in twenty twenty one. Unbelievable.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And then you know, Devory said on the stand he said,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: after he married Devon, his father stopped talking to him.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Now there's the one truthful thing he certainly said on
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: the stand. Of course he stopped talking to you father. Yeah,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: did you think.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course, yeah. I mean, I'm sure
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the father was furious about this, furious, perhaps jealous, possessive
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: guy I mean, I can't imagine, Oh, can't imagine.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So at the time of Jonathan's death, he and Devin
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: were in custody dispute over the girls, and this had
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: gotten very, very ugly. While Jonathan had custody, he did
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: so because Devon had been accused of child abuse in
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two after a childcare worker reported bruising on
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: one of the girl's legs. Eventually, Devin was sentenced to
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: one year of probation for the child abuse charge. According
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: to the victim's mother Okay, Jonathan's mother, Devon was trying
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to get back together with Jonathan so she could be
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: with her daughters. That's where she had put her priorities.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So this story of reconciliation, I'm afraid is a bit muddied.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I can't see this very clearly because it all depends
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: on whose version you believe or hear. So it appears
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that she was willing to divorce her current husband, Devery,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: in order to be back with Jonathan in order to
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: be with her kids, or maybe the plan was maybe
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to be with him, but I can't
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: and then I kill him. Obviously, she says she's innocent here,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: So can we go to the crime scene, because I
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: think here's what's interesting. She makes some admissions which to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: me sound truthful, only because I always think when you
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: hear the truth, it's like, ah, that makes sense. So
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: let's see the crime scene. Jonathan's home, Henderson, Nevada. It's
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: August seventh, twenty twenty three nine, when one call comes
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: in from Jonathan's mother. This is the victim's mother. She
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: discovers can you imagine she discovers her son's headless body
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: in his bed. He's been wrapped up in blankets, and
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: it's a bloody mess.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And dowsed with chemicals. Awful, just awful. She's traumatized.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable, unbelievable. According to the initial arrest report, Jonathan's head
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: had been severed from the body. They noticed a very
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: strong chemical smell. They saw chemical burns on Jonathan's body
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: at the crime scene, likely from cleaning fluids. They're thinking
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: it's a mixture of maybe ammonia and bleach. Horrible, horrible.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: To this day, Jonathan's head has never been found, and
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the murder weapon has never been found, and the medical
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: examiner cannot say conclusively what caused his death. They say,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: because they don't have the head, they have some limitations
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: on what killed him. They believe his head was removed
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: post mortem. They believe that two saws were used to
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: remove the head. Is not an easy thing to do,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: not an easy thing to do. So the going theory,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and we'll get into this because it's a little controversial
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: what police say that she They're saying Devin took Jonathan's
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: head with her, took it back to Las Vegas and
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: put it in a trash can, and then it was
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: picked up by the trash collectors, never to be found again.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: What is your diagnosis, opinion, observation of taking his head off?
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So the capitation is very interesting. The literature on crime
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: and decapitation is very interesting. These are usually highly emotional crimes,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: a crime that you will see with jealousy, possessiveness, rage,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to actually chop someone's heads. It is sometimes done post mortem,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: It is sometimes taken away as a trophy, but it
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: really is also symbolically meant to destroy one's identity, like
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I have destroyed you, I've taken your head, I've destroyed
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: your identity, I've destroyed your body. It also could be
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a way of just starting to dismember the body some way.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: But you know, however, she didn't. You know, there are
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: chemical burns all over the body that she's being accused of,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: so I don't know what she was trying to do.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: There was she trying to wipe prints off? I don't
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: know if there's any prints on his body. But decapitation
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: is a very emotional, very emotional.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's when people chop up body.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Hatred, real hatred, Yeah, real hatred, because it's a labor
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: in your power. Yeah.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not an easy thing to do. It's physically
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: difficult and exhausting, and it doesn't happen immediately, so the
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: person has to remain in that moment for a long
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: while for a while.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, you know, not to get graphic, but
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: depending on where you're trying to cut, it doesn't have
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: to be that difficult all the time. So she can't
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: do it physically, she can do it. So yeah, that's
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: they probably know that. Yes, I'm surprised there's no video anywhere.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: You know, Las Vegas, there's cameras everywhere, there's no video
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: of her anywhere with this head, with the trash bag
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: You think that would have come up already.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: The I mean, do you think so? Yeah, I would
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: think so. But yeah, but that is a crime of hatred,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: very very jealous, angry homicidal rage. If the person's already
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: de ceased, why do you want to chop their head off?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, It just I think it would. This sounds
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just looking at it from the crime
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: perspective that this is going to slow you down. It's
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: just like, what are you going to do with it?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: You're gonna have to dispose of it? If he's dead already,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the damage has been done.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And the and about videos, you know, there are videos
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that show the two of them together, Devin with Jonathan
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: at stores and things like that, but none of that
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: other and then when she leaves, apparently leaves Jonathan's house.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Police say that there's a gap in time between yes,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: when she says she left and when she left, and ye,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: that it's unaccounted for. But other than that, you're right,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of that kind of digital
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: evidence for two cities that you would think would have
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a ton of cameras.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what happened within that hour? And again, why why
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: take the head? You know, if she didn't do it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Did some random person do this?
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Well, she does admit, and we're going to get to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that now. When police finally question her, she does admit
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: to striking him and that she doesn't seem to have
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a problem admitting. So police bring Devon in for questioning.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: She consented to a polygraph interview, which is really interesting.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I, in the if I had
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: done this, what I consent to that, unless I know
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: I'm a really good lot, I have no idea. I
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: just think that that's interesting. She consented to it. Police
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: says she failed inadmissible in court. Whether she passed or failed.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: She said that Jonathan was abusive and you know, and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: she was talking about, you know, what was going on
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: with the relationship and stuff. But she she said that
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: she was massaging him on the bed. This is what
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: she says. She's massaging Jonathan and then he wants her
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to do some kind of sex act that she doesn't
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: want to do, and she's offended, and so she gets
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: mad and there's some kind of a wooden stick and
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: she beats him with it, and this is what she
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: tells police. And she says it was self defense and
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: that he went limp, and that she didn't tend to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: kill him. She said, quote, she only wanted to hurt
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: him enough that he would have to go to the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: hospital because she wanted him out of the way so
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: she could figure out what she could do with her children.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: That's the part that I believe.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I believe that too. I mean the other thing about
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: this defendant that again, if you're doing like a forensic
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: psychological evaluation, I would want to know what her cognitive
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: functioning is, like, how smart is she? She's making clearly
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: really bad decisions that make no sense whatsoever. I wanted
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: to put him in the hospital for a little bit
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: so I could figure out what to do with my kids.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: None of that really makes sense. It doesn't. The other
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: part here is, you know, just because someone has custody, right,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Let's say Jonathan has custody of his kids, right, If
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you have custody, that doesn't mean that you are not
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: allowed to let your kids go hang out with your
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: ex wife girlfriend. Your ex can't the mother, right, The
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: mother can't do something, but you can let her do
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: whatever you like if you have custody of your kids.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: The same way you can have your friend come pick
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: up your kids. And take them out to dinner. You
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: can do that, you know, you don't need the court's
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: permission to do that. So I don't know why he
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: wanted to move back in with her, Like, who did
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: he want to move back in with her? Was she
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: really trying to reconcile with him? Was she trying to
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: convince him? Why did she go over there to begin with?
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Was she trying to convince him of something? Some report
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: said that he was packing the night before and he
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: was going to move back in. But again, the whole,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the whole thing. She's made a lot of really awful
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: decisions that make no sense. Even agreeing to a polygraph
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: if you know you did it, you really shouldn't be
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: taking a playgreph unless you really thought you could get
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: away with the polygraph. Again, it's not indivisible in court,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: but still we know about it, and it adds to people.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's entirely possible that as admitted that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: she did strike him, she didn't mean to kill him
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: and she didn't decapitate him, or if she did, she's
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: blurred and blocked that out, And that's why she took
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: the polygraph, because that part of it. She's like disconnected
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: from I don't know how people do that.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: But well, yeah, dissociation, Yeah, dissociation. I mean again, dissociation.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Dissociation absolutely. I don't know if she has a mental illness.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to her in that moment. Uh,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean you can speculate a lot of things.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Did you try to coerce her into an app Did
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: she have a PTSD reaction to this? Did she just
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: kind of go blank and go into an homicidal rage?
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Who knows? Uh, you know. Again, diagnostically, I don't know
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: what her diagnosis is, but I would want to look
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: for antisocial personality disorder. I'd want to look for you know,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: she has psychopath tendencies. What would cause someone to do this?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Clearly shows very poor judgment and the decisions that she's
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: made or not at all.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: No, they made no sense. So this is again according
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: to Devon and what she told police. She allegedly then
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: covered up Jonathan's body with blankets, and that fits with
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: what his mother found, and then this is odd. She
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: briefly spoke with Jonathan's mother around one before leaving the residence,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: and police claim that she was seen on surveillance footage
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: around two four am. So there's that one hour unaccounted for,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and when Devon was questioned about what was going on
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: in that hour, and she really couldn't account for that time.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Usually when something so traumatic happens, Let's say she did
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: hit him with a stick and then he passed out.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether he was alive or not. I
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: would think you would remember what you did in that
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: next hour unless you don't want to tell anyone. Yeah, exactly,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: that's just me. So police arrested Devon on August fifteenth
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, and they charged her with one
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: count of what's called open murder, which is very interesting
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: in Nevada, which allows for a wide variety of charges
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: for the jury to decide on. So could go all
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the way from first degree down to manslaughter. That to
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: me is fascinating. So last September, prosecutors reached this deal
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: that we talked about early on, where Devin would plead
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: guilty to second degree murder with the use of a
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: deadly weapon. In exchange for her plea, Devon would have
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: been eligible for parole after serving fifteen years behind bars.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Now it's a crapshoot. I mean, she had that change
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: of heart, and as we said at that formal sentencing,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: she just came undone. So this to me is really interesting.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: A police officer testified that, without the presence of her attorney,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: she allegedly told this officer that she put Jonathan's head
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: in a laundry basket. That's very specific.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: That's very specific, very specific.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: In a laundry basket, and then drove it to her
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: neighborhood where she put it in a trash can, and
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: she sent to and she said it went quote bye bye.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: And at the time she's saying this, apparently during the interrogation,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you can hear a the beeping of a trash truck
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: and she said, just like that, bye bye.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: And I was like, wow, that's very specific, Jamway.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: And do you think that beeping was triggering.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Perhaps perhaps hearing the beeping of the but for her
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to say bye bye, that's pretty callous. Yeah, it's very
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: very callous. You know, if we look at again what
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: we know about decapitation, this is jealous greage. I want
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: to destroy you, I want to destroy your identity, I
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: want to take away your power. I'm going to put
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: your head in a laundry basket and throw it in
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: the trash and by by you go callous, lack of
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: remorph no embasy. This is the father of her two children, right,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: this found ruthlessness in this case.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I just, honestly I can't sort this one out. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: I just can't sort it out because you know, everyone
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: is responsible for their contribution to this situation, all three
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: of them. How they got themselves in this mess. Not
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the murder, not the murder at all, but this triangle,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: part of this relationship with children and people and sons
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and marriages, and now the three of them are wholly
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: responsible for this dysfunctional situation that they have found themselves in.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And what in the world are those two girls, like
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: what about the mind? Are children in this?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Yes? I don't know who's taking care of them? I mean,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: what are they? How are they going to process all
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: of this as they go into their teenage years, as
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: they're in middle school?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, because so father is dead and murdered violently. Mother
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: is behind bars, accused of killing father, your half brother
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: maybe step dad, right, yeah, yeah is you know, he's
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: not accused, but he's he's got a weird relationship with
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: your mother and your father. Like how do you help
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: those children? How do you model good behavior for them?
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I mean they're going to need therapy, they're going to
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: for sure, But yeah, I mean hopefully they wind up
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: in a place where better behavior can be modeled.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Again, these really really poor boundaries and the fact that
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: she was in the adult sex business. I think there
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: might be some connection. I do. I think there might
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: be some connection. Again, all adult film stars are not
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: all created equal. Perhaps there are plenty of people who
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: have very intact self esteem, don't have an abuse history,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: are absolutely fine, And there are some who have a
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: history of trauma who are trying to get away from
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: something they need an easy fix, and they are further
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: trauma tized and exploited in some way. So I don't
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: know what kind of trauma she has. But you know,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: the comment about go bye bye, that's a pretty angry
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: lack of empathy, no guilt, you know. And again maybe
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: that speaks to her agreeing to take a life detector test.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to have any emotional reaction because I
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: just don't care, right, Perhaps, Yeah.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I think if the testimony I've heard so far there's
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: more a little bit more evidence, I'm going to get into.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: But honestly, for me, the most challenging testimony, the biggest
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: whole for the prosecution, is her husband, Devery, the victim's son,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: testifying that he indeed has lied, lied to the police,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: lied to the grand jury, lied on the stand about
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: his relationship with her and his relationship with his father.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And what I cannot figure out about him is like
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: his answers, His answers don't make any sense. He will
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: say I had a great relationship with my dad, and
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: then the defense attorney would say, but you haven't spoken
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: to him since you married her. That's true, Well, how
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: can you have a good relationship if you haven't spoken
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to your father in years? So, you know, he clearly
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: shows the dysfunction in this family. I am by no
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: means putting any blame on him for the death of
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: his father, but I have to say, I I don't know.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I think there's going to be some reasonable doubt in this.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: There's going to be some reasonable doubt in this, but.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: There really might be, And you know, I would want
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: to know more about him and about his personality. You know,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: he needs to be questioned further about somebody's things, because
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: you're right, how do you have a good relationship with
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: your dad. That the dad. He also said the dad
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: didn't know that he'd married her.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's crazy.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's completely crazy. So in his head, well, he
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't know I married her, So I had a good
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: relationship with him this whole time. But then another point,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: there's evidence that he said he didn't have a good
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: relationship with him. Who knows, But that's what I would
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: want to know. In terms of motive and constructing, you know,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: the idea of intention, these relationship dynamics become very important
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: to cover in a case like this.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I really think he's he's the weak spot
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: for the prosecution. He gives, you know, some reasonable doubt
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: to the defense, and look, he knows his situation is.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, people are going to judge. Hello, yeah,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: people are going to judge you. And maybe he's uncomfortable
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: about it. But you can't make a decision to marry
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: someone and then like, you know, you really are going
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: to tell the police, Oh no, we married for health insurance. Please.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I just really, that's quite a lie.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: That's quite the lie. They clearly have a sexual relationship.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, on the other hand, you can have poor judgment,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: poor boundaries and not commit a violent crime like this. Yeah, so,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I think I think it's going to be
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of police work to see if they can
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: figure out where he was. You know, I don't know
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: what else they need to do for that where was?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Any digit information would be great here.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And I think to be completely fair in looking at
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: this whole situation, because he was a teenager when this
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: relationship started with her, I think it's entirely possible that
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: maybe some of his confusion, his shame, which could be
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: why he lies about the relationship, could be that he
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: was groomed exactly.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly there may have been Again, there's a lot of
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: possible manipulation here. You know, was he groomed by Devin?
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: You know, did Devin just find him sexually attractive? Who knows?
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: You know? Was she the more adult in the situation
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: she's supposed to be. She's a lot older than him,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: you know, so in terms of you know, sex offender
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: sexual stuff, you know, he groomed? Was he manipulated? He's
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: also clearly he might be scared. I think he probably is.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: You know, he's potentially being accused of something extremely serious.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know, how he feels about the fact that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: his dad is gone. Yeah, traumatic, traumatic, and the fact
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that this relationship has has played a role in his
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: dad's death. Even if he didn't, you didn't actually do it,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: but yeah, there's a lot of manipulation here. And if
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: she did, let's just go with this, married him for
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: insurance purposes. How manipulated is that? How self serving is that?
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Here?
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: You got this kid and you're going to marry him
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: for insurance purposes? Are you thinking if this is the
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: best for him? You know, what is this going to
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: do to his life? How is he going to show
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: him in the world saying I married my stepmom, I
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: married my dad's girlfriend.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: You know, we will never sort this out. So authority say,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: also incriminating Devon. Here is authority say they found Jonathan's
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: things in Devon's home, and there's no logical explanation for
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: that if the two of them are actually fighting. So
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: they found in these items were found in the home
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and in the car and in her purse. So his
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: bloody cell phone, which one of the girls apparently yes, yes,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: very disturbing right there, His Social Security guard wallet ID,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and truck keys.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: That's a lot that's a lot. I mean the thing
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: that I would want to know and that I would
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: really ask if I were on you, But if I
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: got to interview this person, I would want to know details.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: What has your relationship been like for the past six
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: weeks with this man? When did you see him? How
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: much did you hang out with him? How much did
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: you talk to him? Did you get into any arguments
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: with him? What was your relationship like? I would want
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: to dig and dig and dig to find out, to
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: really get to a place of motive and intent, and
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: then to see what kind of person are we dealing
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: with here in terms of intent? I think that that
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: would be very important. Now did she panic or was
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: this callous? Something very callous about go bye bye to
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the head in the trash.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: After we recorded this podcast, the jury convicted Devin Michaels
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of murder. She did not take the stand in her defense.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Devin faces a sentence of fifty one years to life
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: in prison, much more than if she had taken the
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: plea deal. Lenny, this has been so much fun. I mean,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: and when I mean fun, I mean I have enjoyed
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: the conversation with you. This case is horrific. I can't
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: wait to hear what all of you think about this,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: because this is just plain old nuts. Just we have
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: a second or two. I just I'm so curious. I
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: just want to hear about your experiences like a Rikers Island.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: I just I cannot imagine what that was like.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Well, actually, you know, Rikers is a well oiled machine,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: or was a well oiled machine. Usually, what the role
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: of a correctional psychologist is is to make sure that
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: people who have a mental illness, or people who are
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: under a great deal of stress and are desperate and
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: hopeless because they have committed some crime, are protected. The
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: goal in Rikers is to make sure that no one
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: harms themselves. That is the primary goal, and that is
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: what we do with Rikers, or did when I work there.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: That is still a goal there, but that is what
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: we do because people come in after committing a horrible crime.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Because you know, Rikers is a jail, it's not a prison, right,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: So they're big help there and sometimes they don't have bail,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: and sometimes they're held there for weeks and they're stressed out,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: they're guilty, they're afraid. Some of them have committed crimes
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that they know if they get convicted they will go
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: to jail for a long time. You know, certain types
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: of breaking an entry back, bank robbery's assaults, and they're
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: really stressed out and scared, and these are the people
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: who might want to harm themselves to kind of get
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: out of it. So that's what we do. Yeah, that's
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: what we do.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: And was it very stressful for you going here. We've
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: had some attorneys on the podcast who describe just the
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: difficulty of getting to Rikers.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: It's hard to get to Rikers. Yeah, like physicifically get there, yes, yes, yes,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: well as the clinical supermarns. I had a special pass
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: so I was allowed to drive on and off the island.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: If you don't have a pass, you are not allowed
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: to drive on and off the island. You have to
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: be on the bus. So that is very difficult for
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: some people to get in. Once you're in the island,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: in where your offices are, you're not allowed to have
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: your phone, you can only dress a certain way, you're
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: not allowed to wear certain clothing. It's you know, it
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: takes it takes a minute to get in, even with
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: a car pass, and then it takes a while to
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: get out and then back in because they do check
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: your bags, make sure that no one's bringing in any contraband.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And was that stressful for you to be in that
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: kind of an environment with so much violence?
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I'll tell you I'll tell you Anna, it's
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: almost because I worked in forensics for so long. Because
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: remember when I you know, when I did my residency.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: I did a forensic residency at raised On Psychiatric Hospital,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: and then I did a post doc for the State
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: of New Jersey, and then I worked as an expert
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: witness for the State of New Jersey in you know,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: these these sexually violent predator prisons that we have in
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: New Jersey. So I was so used to working in
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: these environments that you almost did you develop a tolerance.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: And it's not until you leave and you're kind of
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: out of it that you look back and you think, wow,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: that was really hard, you know, very very hard. So,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: you know, being on the show today definitely reminded me
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: of some of that, you know, about what it was
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: like back then to work at these places. My life
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: now is obviously very different, my work is very different.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, those are tough environments to work in. But
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: like anything, we get used to it.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: We just yeah, wow, it's fascinating, just fascinating, you know,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: And this is why you never know who you're going
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: to meet at any given time. Sit down, you have
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: a conversation and you're like, oh my gosh, you're fascinating.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Please come on the podcast, and I'm thank you. I'm
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: so glad that this that this worked out. Where can
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: people I know you're in private practice in Manhattan, Where
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: can people find you? Follow you?
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Sure they can look at Manhattan Cognitive Therapy Consultants dot
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: com and right now have a practice that works on
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: people with depression, anxiety disorders and a lot of dating issues.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: So a lot of dating issues.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Please elaborate a lot of dating issues. Yes, people want
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: to be with someone. People have a lot of dating problems.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I think the apps have caused a lot of addiction
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to dating, a lot of problems with finding someone. Everyone
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: says they want to be in a serious relationship, yet
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: they really don't. They keep searching and searching and searching
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: for the next best thing. Definitely pushing for more in
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: person events so people can meet people. But I look
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: at people's attachment styles and help them change their attachment
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: styles when they cannot find someone that they can have
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: a secure and loving relationship with We look at what
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: are some of the problems that are holding you back?
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Why haven't you found the right one? So that is
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: what my practice very much focuses on them.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Fascinating. This has been so cool. I hope you come back.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I can talk about dating.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I know, well, you know what crime we will find
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: a case. You know there's one out there that's gonna
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: come up and we'll talk about it. So you know,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: you can share some of your observations and you know,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: maybe help us with our bad behaviors.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I would love to.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Well, you can find this podcast all our podcasts wherever
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: That's where we have this great, vibrant conversation. Can't wait
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on this crazy case today. You
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: can also get a newsletter you can subscribe at True
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: crime News dot com. So until next week, this is
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: True Crime Us the podcast. I'm your host, Santa Garcia.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: And as we say, crime never stops, and neither do
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: we