Latest / Monero Talk / JP of THORChain on Becoming the Decentralized On-Ramp Monero Needs | EPI 365

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JP of THORChain on Becoming the Decentralized On-Ramp Monero Needs | EPI 365 · Monero Talk

• Doug All right, JP, what's going on, man? JP Hey, that was thanks for having me on. Doug Yeah. Thanks for doing this. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. I've been following Thor Chain since you guys were first considering adding Monero. I guess it's been some time. That sent me down the Thor Chain rabbit hole a little bit at the time. Obviously, I'm a Monero guy. I'm most interested in digital cash and trying to find the crypto that does that the best. But obviously, I see there's other powerful use cases out there, things we can do with crypto. I think Thor Chain is one of those things. I think it's a real utility, whether or not it's Thor Chain or some other version. There's definitely a great utility there in building a deck essentially that runs off liquidity pools. So yeah, excited to have you on because I think it's an exciting technology. And I think it's fair to say, you guys are the leaders in the space. JP Yes, we started building back in 2018 around the idea of multi-sigs, and we looked into all the multi-sig technology on Ethereum, Bitcoin, but we knew it was going to work because multi-sig is, it's all on chain, and it's difficult to, yeah, it's difficult to spend and coordinate. So in 2019, a threshold signature paper got released, GG18 paper by Genara Goldfeder and he's Steven Goldberg, I think it is, and described an ability to use threshold signatures. So a bunch of parties come together, and they hold what we call key shares, and you need to recompile the key shares to extract a private key, but the private key has never existed at any point during the key generation ceremony, and it uses a bunch of technology, including zero-knowledge proofs to pull it off, and what it means is the threshold signature looks like a normal on-chain, but it requires a threshold of parties to sign with. So we took that technology, put a state machine on top of it, and a non-store chain, and allows us to do ECTSA chains and EDTSA chains, so different signature curves, like the Solana or say Bitcoin, and that's been running for five years now, and the bedrock of it is built around this idea of liquidity pools, and liquidity pools are fascinating because they basically can quote from any price to zero or infinity with any amount of liquidity, and so if you get two sides, you know, Bitcoin or another asset on the other side, you have always on liquidity, and the liquidity pool can service any quote, will service any swap if you are okay with the price slippage, and so we built a thought chain around liquidity pools because it's much simpler to orchestrate that and say order books, and yeah, the way the thought chain works is a bunch of nodes get together, generate these keys, and then the state machine keeps those nodes honest, they can't steal the funds unless they were to collude over two-thirds, but that's a responsible assumption of the network, and we've never even come close to even being concerned about collusion risk, there's a lot of other risks on the spectrum to worry about, and yeah, it proves it works, thought chain is unique in that it aggressively churns as valid as so, so it tries every three days to pull new nodes in and kick old nodes out, and that stops the node set from stagnating, a lot of problems with proof of stake networks is you get large nodes that just stagnate in the set and they camp out there and they never leave, and they steer the protocol in a bad direction like, you know, EOS is an example of, and so most of the Cosmos chains, they have these stagnated node sets, and so thought chain is different, it tries to aggressively churn and stop stagnation. Doug So is Thorchain the first implementation of this decentralized liquidity pool network? JP Yeah, so we started building, at the same time, the Uniswap launch in 2018 with a very similar idea, but Uniswap just does liquidity pulls on a chain, full chain try to do liquidity pulls across multiple chains. It's 2025 and there's multiple forks or reimplementations of this idea, Chainflip, Maya, etc. And we will see more of them because it's the correct way of doing it. Threshold signature wallets, much safer. There is an orchestration problem, but we should get around that. It's much safer to have threshold signature wallets than private key-based wallets. But today, it's full chain services, 10 chains, I think. We've got more in the backlog releasing every month. And yeah, we looked at Monero back in 2022, 2023, and Monero doesn't come with an inbuilt threshold signature wallet or a library. So we're going to use Monero's inbuilt multi-sig, which is kind of like a threshold wallet, but it has scaling problems. There's a limit of 60 members in the set because, you know, the bandwidth gets out of control because it has order and square bandwidth problems. So each node needs to prompt every other node to the power of n times. So we're warned by Monero security researchers that the old Monero multi-sig wasn't safe in the first place. So we had to, but we did actually have a functioning Monero swap protocol built around multi-sig with all those limitations in mind back in 2023 when we put it on ice. And yeah, we were getting ready to launch it and then we were told that, you know, the multi-sig implementation. And we knew the problems with the multi-sig implementation. So we're basically waiting for a better threshold signature implementation that is compliant with Monero's ring signatures to come out. So that's why we put it on ice back then. Doug The world would've been a different place, man, if Monero would've gotten implemented back then, right? I think it would've been different for blockchain and for Monero and for crypto. JP I mean there was a bunch of other problems we had to solve like it all the funds need to be audited so to make a deposit into The vaults so the nodes could see it process the swap the user had to disclose the essentially the view key for that transaction or the transaction key and Then the protocol itself would need to gossip its view keys So that other nodes could see into the vault and and in fact everyone could see that the money Monero in the vault is disposable because Monero as you know has this kind of opt-outs a privacy model where by default all transactions are private But you can choose to disclose your transaction key which Allows the the recipient of the transaction key to see the amount And the address and then you can also choose to disclose your view key Which allows someone else to see the funds on those wallets before you send out So there was this kind of additional gossiping protocol that need to be built where view keys and transaction keys were propagated around Doug Yeah, I remember we had you guys at the first Monero topia in Miami and we had, uh, Haven there because they were the ones that were contributing as well. I think they were doing some of the development, uh, cause they're basically, you know, fork in Monero, same, same code base essentially. Um, the idea, the idea, the hope there was, you know, we'd have Monero and Haven on Thor chain, and then we'd be able to, you know, anonymously, uh, just go between Monero and a private stable coin, uh, through a decentralized network, which I know would just be, it's like the holy grail, right? JP Yeah, and the Haven team did a bunch of really important work and hard work with us to try and mature that out. But it, yeah, like you got to the end and we realized there was still so much more work to go and someone had to build a proper threshold signature scheme for Monero. And so since then, obviously, Luke Parker has been trying to launch a, he's a Monero contributor, he's been trying to launch Serai and he's built a threshold signature scheme around Monero and he's doing a lot of work there. And that's perfectly fine. I was looking at his library for the threshold implementation. It's not there yet in terms of usability and immaturity. So where we stand today is, and I'm just chatting to our NPC wallet provider. So take a step back. Thorchain launched, we're using GG19, which was a security improvement over GG18. And then we upgraded to GG20, which was itself another security upgrade. And over the years, the GG20 scheme has some known issues. It's hard to, it's not possible to get an absolute security guarantee that the scheme is actually safe. So there are some dangerous assumptions about it. So we've been in the last year looking to upgrade from GG20 to a better threshold scheme. And that candidate is called DKLS23. It's a three-round gossiping protocol and GG20 is a seven-round protocol. So already we got a big improvement in terms of the amount of bandwidth that needs to be gossiped between the nodes. And the laboratory who built DKLS23 are going to build us a Monero NPC, hopefully delivered by Christmas, ordered early next year. And we hope there's going to be, you know, be open source and available, but it'll be usable and plug and play with Thorchain's code base. Doug That's amazing. You guys are saying by early, early next year. JP Yeah, that's, that's, that's the plan to implement this. It will need to be upgraded because as you know, Monero next year is upgrading to full chain membership proofs. Yes. So that, so instead of having decoys of I think 11 or 16, whatever it is, you, you include all the signatures from the whole UTXO set. So you suddenly jump from an anonymous set, quite small to very large. And for privacy, it's always about your anonymity set. Like how many other people are you hiding in with? And I think it's a big improvement because as you know, like these privacy protocols are vulnerable to temporal analysis and second expertise recent, I think three days ago, show how you can actually just by monitoring the deposits and then within a certain time period, if someone's depositing the same amount as withdrawing, then likely that they are the same person. Yeah, for sure. Doug for sure. That's definitely an attack that can be done there. I'm still in disbelief here. So you're saying by early next year, we could be swapping Monero on Thorchain? JP We're also building VolteSeq. VolteSeq is a threshold signature wallet, and we need a threshold signature scheme for Monero to be built first. So we're going to build this threshold scheme, and hopefully have it delivered by Christmas, implement it in VolteSeq and test it out. So you'll be able to use Monero in a threshold signature wallet, which is VolteSeq which we've been building for the last two years. Additionally, once that's mature and we're happy with it, and we're familiar with code base and how it works, then we'll bring it into ThoughtChain Stagnet where we stage new chains, and then Q1 next year would be hopefully the release cycle on to Mainnet. Doug Right. So yeah, so by early next year, that's amazing, man. You guys have to come to Monero Topia. Any way we make that happen? Where is it? That's in Mexico City in February. JP Okay, maybe maybe maybe Doug I'd be amazing to have you. Oh my God. Yes. Thank you. So so you sell it. I mean you're you're you sound like you're a Monero guy as well. No, or I guess you're You obviously know the tech. Well, you're obviously I'm sure very interested in in a crypto that could be untraceable digital cash whether it's Monero or Zcash So yeah, give it give us your thoughts on that JP I think it's one of Bitcoin's fatal flaws, and even Satoshi mentioned this on Bitcoin Talk Forum, was Bitcoin lacked privacy. And at first Satoshi's idea was, well, because you're paid to a public key hash, there's no really linkability from the outside world onto your own chain world. But because so many, there's so much data on chain, it's very easy to do chain analysis and work at who you are. So he lamented that Bitcoin didn't have a true privacy solution. And if you go from cash, cash is truly private. If no one sees you make the payment, then no one knows that you did the payment. But if you have a bank deposit or a bank transfer, everyone can see who you're paying and how much and why. And censorship around payments is like it's one of the biggest threats to financial sovereignty. And we're losing that as we migrate away from cash towards more digital payments, we're losing our financial privacy and sovereignty because that is just basically an attack surface on us that can catch up to you over time because you leave this giant digital footprint of who you're paying and where. And Bitcoin doesn't have privacy, unfortunately. There are ideas about how to bring more privacy into Bitcoin, but those haven't really seen anything apart from the mixers. And the mixers are also quite flawed in the implementation, as you know, and you can do temporal analysis on them and they're like they're bounced between a hybrid of custodial mixes and non-custodial mixes. But it's a very gray, gray area about who does what and but most mixing services have been brought down over time. So that indicates that they are not truly resilient to pressure and they can be taken offline. So because Bitcoin doesn't have privacy, it opens up a vacuum and that vacuum is being attended to by, you know, Zcash and Monero. I think I believe Monero's implementation is better or Monero's philosophy is better. Privacy should be the default. You should only be opting out because if you make non-privatization default, very few people opt in and suddenly you have this like, you know, you reduce the number of people in your anonymity set. Actually, Monero's biggest flaw is not many people actually use it for payments. And so the number of real users of Monero using is low and you can easily do temporal analysis on the exchanges, the shopping services, the payment gateways. And if you know which transaction is going in and out of those services, and I do know like three led agencies do run a bunch of Monero transactions themselves. And so you build up this awareness that all these transactions are known. So these small amount of real transactions must be the real users. And that mass reduces your anonymity to the point where I think there's a research paper that found that your true anonymity set in a Monero transaction is something down to three because all the others can be discounted for it. It's like, well, it's definitely not them because we know about them. So it must be you down here. So privacy must be default. The other issue with Zcash was the trusted setup ceremony. They didn't have the technology back then to create a trustless setup. JP So there was not many people involved in that trusted setup. Did that destroy the, you know, the toxic material? Who knows? But today I believe Zcash has upgraded to a trustless setup, but it wasn't originally upgraded there. The other issue with Zcash is you actually don't know the true supply of Zcash. It's, you know, there could be a huge amount of over mints. If someone has access to that material or has access to a Zcash zero day, you can't order the full supply. So there's also that issue. We actually don't know how much Zcash there is, right? Or if someone's sitting on a zero day, that could infinite mint Zcash, right? We don't yet know. So there's, there's a couple of issues with Zcash and, you know, you know, it proves in the pudding which, which the coin that is the most effective, what it does is the one that gets banned everywhere, you know, and shut down because it's too good. Right. And so you just look at how many exchanges list Monero versus Zcash. So, you know, it's not to say that Zcash can improve over time and they, they have been working extremely hard on the zero and all the knowledge stack to get better assurances around the Zcash technology. But they're just different interpretations and different trade-offs. Doug P is a Monero chat, man. The Monero community is loving what you're saying right now. Obviously, I guess you've always wanted to add a digital cash crypto to Thorchain. I assume that, right? Given your thoughts on the tech. JP concept. Yeah, so I think it should, like chains that are isolated islands, or they certainly were back in 2018. And it was the only way to move between them was through very dodgy, you know, custodial swap providers or exchanges. And our vision was to offer a decentralized alternative to that. And, you know, there is a cost to that. Like if you do a swap on thought chain, it's not the best quote, because it has to pay for a certain decentralization. Whereas, you know, the other providers can give you better execution, because they are cheating on the decentralization, and they don't have those decentralization expenses. So, you know, that indicates that the protocol, you know, what you're paying for is the fact that it is decentralized, and you're not going to get censored. Yeah, so that's, I guess, my sort of... Doug So that goes very well with the digital cash like crypto versus some other cryptos, right? I mean, that's probably going to be your primary use case ultimately, right? Yeah, and I mean, yeah, exactly. JP People that just want the decentralized censorship resistant route, and instead of having their funds stuck in, you know, processing on, you know, any of the swap providers who are fake decentralized, it can be taken down or sensitive funds, many examples of that. I do want to highlight though that Monero can only be added to DEXs in a non-private way because these DEXs need to audit the supply of Monero in their vaults. So when you swap over these DEXs, whether it be Serai or Thought Chain hopefully, your swap would be fully visible to everyone, your from address and your to address, but then you can immediately jump in the in the anonymity set after the privacy set. And like Ethereum with TornadoCash, I was a big user for TornadoCash back in the day because no one wants to have people snoop around your wallets. Ethereum with Railgun today, Bitcoin has had privacy over the years with Verus Mixing Services and those protocols, no one tries to deal with Ethereum because of Railgun or no one tried to deal with Bitcoin because of Wasabi. So yeah, all these protocols actually privacy can be attained on all these protocols and it just depends on where you're going to get the where you're going to seek the safest refuge, where's the largest set of where's the biggest privacy pool? And Monero has that today, it has the biggest privacy pool and is more effective at hotting your privacy. Doug headlines. And Thorchain has the potential to really add to Monero's utility. And I'd say vice versa for Thorchain as well, but definitely for Monero, right? Because I think one of its biggest issues obviously is the on-ramping and off-ramping and the ability to get more liquidity into Monero. JP Yeah, and that was the side effect of being delisted off the exchanges, that it became very thin in its liquidity and, you know, we need to bring Monero's liquidity back into the DEXs, but to do that, we need to restore some more build to be done. And yeah, that's just, you know, a hardcore work and effort by people who want to make it happen, for sure. Doug What, uh, what can the Monero community do to help you? I know there's been some, I don't know, resistance there because, um, you know, once I lose any mark, any resistance, I know Luke Parker has any, but it's some, some negative comments I'll, I'll put to you that way, right? JP Well, just to be understanding, Luke has been building a Serai for many years as his baby, and he's well entitled to build it and ship it, and I hope to see a world in which Serai exists, right, because these coins need more alternatives. But, you know, Luke is vulnerable to shielding his viewpoint behind a layer of antagonism or a layer of, you know, being indignant sometimes, and that's just personality. I've met him in real life, and he's quite an okay dude, and, you know, I had a good conversation with him, but he's, yeah, and so I would say, like, there's a little bit of competition there. I would love to see us deliver what we said we would try, and we're actually making moves to try and do this right now. We did try back in 2023, and, you know, we had to put the work on ice there. It couldn't have been done safely back in 2023, and so there's a bulk of work to be done, and, yeah, I'd like to see us ship these things. Luke is not the guardian of Monero liquidity. He's, he's just someone that's having to go with building, building stuff. So, yeah, Luke aside, I think, if something needs to be built, then go ahead and build it and may the best implementation win. Doug Yeah, I mean, Luke is, you know, Luke is a god in the Monero community, which is probably bad to say. And he's decentralized networks. But it's the truth. I mean, he's, he's done some amazing work. And now he's implementing. Oh, he's a very gifted engineer. Yeah, it was a big part of implementing full chain membership proofs. And he went off and built Serai in response to, you know, partially in response to Thor not being able to list it at the time. JP he was not helpful at all. And I'll say this honestly, you know, three years ago, he did not want to see thought chain succeed at adding mineral liquidity onto it. Okay. That was his idea and his baby. And I felt here, and it may not interact with them. He was very coy on what was wrong with our implementation. And his throat was like, if you launch this, I will hack you. And I felt that, you know, his world. Doug It's because of his idealism though and believing that if we're gonna do this you got to do it right right I think or do you think it was really just because of competition and he just wanted it to launch on Serai. JP Yeah. And he, he wanted to own that liquidity route, which is, which is fine. And he's done a lot of work and I think, I think like it should exist. But I didn't find him, haven't found him helpful over the years, to be honest. But like I said, he's a very gifted, gifted person. He is building good stuff. His code is good and he's very pragmatic and detail orientated. But there are plenty of people in the world who can try and build these things. And I think we should encourage more people to build. More wallets should have Monero, more DEXs should implement it. And, you know, I want Serai to exist and I was hoping Serai would launch years ago. And I even told Luke, I would be happy to support and add liquidity and run nodes. And I still would if Serai launches, but Serai hasn't launched yet. So we're in 2025. We still don't have a viable DEX route for liquidity. While I was banking on Luke to ship it and, you know, if an engineer ever says it's going to take X amount of time, then multiply that by three. There's just so much work to be done. And so at this point in 2025, Monero still doesn't have a DEX. I know Luke is working really hard on getting Serai out, but it's like, okay, well, maybe we can have another go as well. Doug Yeah, no, I totally welcome it. I mean, I have the ultimate respect for Luke and whatever I could do to support him. I always try to do just because I know how important he is for Monero, but I welcome the competition and it leading to Monero being on more decentralized exchanges. I mean, it sounds like a great outcome and they both win, right? I hope this is Emily there. Serai launched and obviously, Thorchain had Monero as well, and I think there's plenty of you to go around, a rising tide raises all ships, right? So I certainly think that will be the end results. So maybe there's others from the Monero community that could step up, right? Luke isn't the only one. So I'm hoping there's others that will be willing to work with you guys and help you guys along. I mean, ultimately, I guess it's work you need, you're looking to do, you're looking to contribute as well, essentially, to build the missing pieces on the Monero end as you see it. JP Yeah, so we will fund our implementation of a threshold signature scheme and deliver those and we will pay for the order of it because, you know, the world will be a better place if we have multiple implementations of viable signature schemes from NARA. So we're going to go ahead with that. We will, on delivery of that, try and implement it in Valticig to allow users to have because everyone today is using private key based wallets. And I want to go from Tanji here, but a private key based wallet is radioactive and like, do you trust the device which issued you the entropy? Do you roll your own dice? Okay, that's too hard. So you got to trust this device. But in so many cases over the last 10 years, there have been there has been libraries that generate weak entropy. All right, and these just recently I think 120,000 Bitcoin wallets that built on this library with weak entropy were hacked and the funds were moot and even trust for at one stage was vulnerable to this. So there's there's a trust chain there. All right. Do you like you're not going to roll the entropy yourself. So you're going to use a you know, a hardware device like ledger or a software based device like trust for a minimize to to create your private key. Your private key is just a number between 0 and 2 to the power 256. So something has to generate that random number and that once you have stored a private key, you know, it gets represented as a string of 12 or 24 words. You're going to write that down. You can take screenshots sticking your notes putting your keychain, but then it that will live there forever. Even if you press delete is still not deleted. So the idea of a threshold signatures is much more powerful that you bring multiple devices together. One could be a MacBook iOS Android Windows. They don't generate a private key, but they collectively generate almost what you call a virtual private key that doesn't actually exist right because it's held by these multiple parties. It's it's not like the old Shameer secret sharing where you take a private key cut it into chunks and distribute that around because the person who created a private key and who dealt those chunks knows about that private key. Whereas a threshold signature game. It's truly split from day. You know the moment was created and you know, you can there's been so many cases this year where there's so many zero days on Chrome on even Mac iPhone someone can send you a you know as fake zoom link or a video chat link or send you a picture in your iMessage you tap that form it can jump outside a little sandbox go sniff around pulling keys out. Whereas so if you do have one device compromise, you know, it shouldn't mean a giant loss of your funds. If you use a threshold signature wallet, you know, if you lose if you have one device compromise, you don't have you don't you lose your thoughts. So we need to we need to move everyone away from private key baseball to threshold signature wallets where we split the key up and it never exists in the first place and there's so you can do so much more with the threshold signature wallets than you can do with private key. JP You can redeal the shares with new communities. You can expand the set contract it you can give people a key share so they can view your wallets and proposed transactions and then you co-sign it. So you have like this kind of two multi-factor authentication process where and that's where that's where actually what we're building is, you know, you know, and we actually use all this seek for Treasury management. So we have multiple people around the world who have key shares safely and you can you know can propose transaction. So yeah, that's a certain spill. We need to move away from private keys to threshold signatures. Doug And the threshold signatures is a key component of your technology for how the nodes basically do the signing for the liquidity pools, correct? I mean, that's where that's all. JP Yeah, that's correct. So yeah, then the nodes all have one key share. And so they can all join together sign a transaction going out rather. Doug And you're saying bringing this technology to the users as well so that we're not all just using this single one private key that can easily be lost or compromised. JP Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's three months ago, I got phished myself. Um, and I, I had, I thought I'd moved all my phone to fall to see, and, uh, I had these old metamask that I'd literally forgotten about and that was staking in these old default protocols, which I completely forgot about and I work up one day and everyone was texting me, Oh, did you move your funds? And I'm like, no, I didn't. And so yeah, what had happened is someone got access through a, um, a phishing link, zoom link, um, maybe over multiple occasions, I don't know. I was able to get into my key chain, um, and just pull out all my old private keys. Um, or they may, they may even like jumped in the Chrome storage. I don't know. And was able to sit them methodically and look at everything and found, uh, these old lost funds, which yeah, it was my mistake. Doug I saw a wild wild that we live in and those were like North Korean hackers or JP Supposedly, I mean, I don't fully believe that story. I think the whole idea of North Korea hacking everyone's crypto is propaganda and it's, you know, there's a front there. I won't get into too much details there, but there's a very dubious of that front message. Doug We do have, we do have an XMR chat, no name tip 32 cents. Will you jointly, which is probably a point, a point. Oh, I'm an arrow. Will you jointly collaborate on an open source TSS scheme with Serai or anyone else? Also for your wallet that you are building, will you commit to making a fully open source? Welcome. Welcome to the Venera. Sorry. JP Yeah, yeah, so the second part, Voldersig is open-sourced, with the exception of one of the libraries. It is an open-source library, but it's a commercial non-use library. And we paid for it to be open-source, and we are yet to pay for another chink to make it MIT. And we agreed with this with the provider to have a short period in which we get to use it and test it out, because it was a new scheme that launched a year ago, and we wanted to test it out with them. And they built it and had it ordered, so they wanted to recover the costs. So we pay for that. That license will move from the non-commercial-use license open-source to a MIT-slash-apache license early next year, which we'll pay for, because it's been out enough time. It's mature enough now that it can be fully open-sourced. But yeah, the whole stack is open-source and auditable. It's just there is one annoying, I find annoying. I didn't want it that way, and I was willing to pay for MIT straight away, but the provider wasn't willing to make that step a year ago, but they're now willing to make that step now. So this is not a fault on our behalf. In fact, we're paying for it to be fully MIT and usable. So yes, fully open-source, as in free, MIT license style is coming for sure. And the threshold signature scheme that we're building will be at this standard. I've made that clear with our provider. We're only going to embark construction if it's MIT from day zero. It's very annoying to me that that license was put in there, and I tried really hard to push back on it, but we had to compromise at one point. So we'll address that for sure. The second part of the question is collaborate with Serai on the threshold signature scheme. So we're having a look at the library now. We're trying to understand what state is it in, and our MPC provider, Science Laboratory, is a world class. They are developing frontier threshold signature technology. So we'll look at do we contribute to the Serai one, or do we go off on a slightly different tangent? Because there's many ways to do threshold signatures. In fact, I think there's probably 15 viable alternatives out there for ECTSA and Schnoor. And so there's many different ways to do it. And so do we want to just have one threshold signature scheme or do we want two? Do we want a more modern one? What are the assumptions made in Serai's implementation? That we can improve on. Does that make sense? Doug Yeah, yeah, it does. And I'm just thinking of all the other questions I have for you, too, man. Do you think door chain will be out? JP Yeah, I, I do want to highlight that there was this big thread that thought Shane didn't add Monero because the node operators were scared of Monero. That is one hundred and I was going to get to that as well. I was going to get to that as well. I mean, there was some commentary from some node operators saying that they didn't want it, but if we had built a fully safe and I do admit our implementation 2023 as, and Luke was right, was not safe because our patch had to be released if, but even still that old multistake implementation had too many restrictions around it. That wasn't fully compatible with the way thought chain works because thought chain, you know, we would have to make too many differences to make it work for Monero. So it was just getting too hard at that point, but, um, uh, especially into 2025 there's, and at some point, some node operators of fortune were like, Oh, you know, we can't touch privacy is too bad, but you know, with, with all chains now from salon, aetherium, um, pushing half privacy, this is the right time to do it and the node operators are on board. Um, the, the way in the second part is both fortunate at Zcash, uh, I believe so, uh, we're trying to say fortune and mayor, uh, folks are the same code base. Right. And we're trying right now as we speak to bring mayor chain diverted a little bit over the last three years, we're actually trying to bring the two code bases fully, uh, compliant with each other as we speak. And then that means Doug They would still be two separate chains. JP but two separate chains, but operating on the same code base so that the Maya developers, devs and the Thorchain devs are not, you know, splitting their focus and can contribute to one code base. That's number one. Number two, we're trying to separate the Bifrost out of Thorchain. It's very entangled, so adding Zcash to Maya doesn't automatically allow us to add it to Thorchain. There's too many differences there. So right now, we're working with Maya devs to bring all the Bifrost together in a single package so that both Maya and Thorchain can pick and choose which chains to run easily. So Maya can add all the Thorchain chains and Thorchain can add all the Maya chains so that basically they're just backups, they're just complete backups of each other so that if one has to go down, you know, you can do swaps through the other one. So that's work we're doing right now. The other bit of work is we do want to actually make chain clients opt in. So the way Thorchain works is every node operator today has to run every node of every connected chain. And some chains don't have the economic throughput to justify the cost to add that client or RPC, if that makes sense. So we're trying to make it opt in so that nodes can pick and choose which chains to run and they will earn the fees on a per chain basis. And getting this work done will allow Thorchain to easily add new chains like Monero with a small subset of its nodes and then nodes and as economic activity increases on those routes, then more nodes will go like it's worth the effort to split up a Monero node or etc and then and join. And yeah, and so this work needs to get done. And also this work will allow to if there's any Thorchain node operators that don't want Monero or for whatever reason, their own people, they can make their own decisions, then they don't have to run those chains. Doug Right. So even if they don't want to run it because they don't feel it's profitable, they may, if they don't want to run it for whatever they see as potential legal reasons to say they're opting out for that. JP Yeah, I mean, but I, like at the end of the day, if, if something's making money and it's, there's a clear path to accessing those margins, then the economics will always, uh, are very convincing and we will address most people's friction to, to participating. And it is funny. Doug that it is funny that Maya added zcash and outdoor chains is looking to add Benero that's that's that's kind of interesting JP Well, I hope that both chains are fully back up to each other. So, filtering has Zcash and Monero, and Maya also has Zcash and Monero. Once the work is done, then that should be ideally easy. Doug So I'm sure there's plenty of people that are listening, plenty of Monero bros or whatever that are listening to this that are perhaps getting interested in Thorchain itself, right? I know me personally. Like I said, obviously the digital cash thing is what interests me the most. I think Monero is the best at it, but I'm also looking to support other crypto projects that are going to help Monero succeed. I certainly see Thorchain potentially being one of those. So what would you say, kind of like get the Monero community excited about Thorchain itself as to why people might want to be interested in supporting the project, owning some rune, JP Yeah, for sure. So for so long, and this is true back in 2018 when we started building this project, was all, all the liquidity and all of the users were stuck in central exchanges, which is just, you know, three dudes with a multi-sig. You know, Bitmex at one stage had, you know, a huge amount of Bitcoin and it literally just was a three or four multi-sig doing manually approved outbound transactions once a day. All right, so we need to get better than that. We, and Thorchain doesn't try to be like this crazy, you know, decentralized protocol with 10, 10s of thousands of nodes. That's not possible because of, you know, it's a very heavy chain and there's a lot of code there. There's a lot of moving paths. It just tries to be better than two dudes, three dudes with a multi-sig. And today it's, it's a hundred nodes with, you know, 67 out of a hundred, you know, two thirds of threshold consensus. So it's just trying to be a lot better than two dudes with a multi-sig. And like, you know, like today, hyperliquid is just a two or three multi-sig on Arbitrum, which is, and, you know, they have these, you know, they can facilitate the Bitcoin deposits for spot trades. But if you peel back the onion, you know, the nodes that run the guardians of that Bitcoin vault, there's just three nodes and two of them are associated with hyperliquid or the hyperliquid foundation. And the third is run by a hyperliquid market maker. So it's like, how, how are we in 2025? And we've not improved on that. And, you know, hyperliquids is good. It should exist. It's more open and decentralized than, you know, the Binance alternatives. But why aren't they using, you know, a much larger node set with threshold signatures and churning vaults and, you know, why are they still, you know, using something as risky as a two or three, right? So there's, we, the industry should be better. And I've always just been interested in building software that works, products that people use. And, you know, I was hoping that by 2025, all of these kind of swap providers and, you know, L2s, et cetera, are doing better than two or three multi-six because that's where we were, you know, it feels like 10 years ago. Speaker 2 Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug Yeah, no, I was just trying to get you to basically shill or change shill rune like like, you know, I think the Monero community, you know, I'm excited about what you guys are doing. Obviously, I've been waiting for Serai as well. But you know, what's going on with the project in general, like I saw, you know, it was, there was some issue with the with the debt, like you guys went into debt somehow, I guess with lending that you're offering and it's like the project itself took a major, like major hit. But now, and it seems like also the project is is kind of trying to get back to its cypherpunk roots, right, especially with this talk of adding Monero, right, and which all for me are very bullish things and things I'm excited about. So, you know, what is going on? Birds Eye View? What is going on with the project? Why should Monero people be interested? Or maybe they shouldn't. I don't know. Maybe, maybe it's something that we shouldn't be touching right now. JP For sure. So thought chain as hard as has tried to be a decentralized liquidity network for multiple chains, right? Because the multiple, the multi-chain thesis will always be true. One chain can't do everything. So you need multiple chains and we're going to see this giant influx of more stablecoin chains, et cetera, so that you will always have multiple chains. Right. And so then you need a protocol to allow you to move between those multiple chains. And over the years, you know, the protocol has, you know, focus on the largest of those chains and try to build useful features around that. The largest, one of the largest features you can ever build is a functioning lending product to allow you to deposit collateral against it. But that's, that's exceedingly hard to build. And there's been many cases of failed lending projects over the years. But the one that seems to work is the CDP or Cladars deposition where, you know, there is a liquidation schedule against the price. You have to pay an interest rate. The interest rate governs, you know, the difference between the, well, the deficit between the reserves and how much people are borrowing. So we, yeah, so our lending project basically failed and we had to, well, the protocol had to like annex that off and do debt recovery. But now the future of LawShane is, go back to its roots, just being a, just decentralized cost custodian network to multiple chains. And we're doing all the hard work now to, in 2026, we'll hopefully add a lot more chains to pull it off. Sorry, I was going to call you. And then, yeah, the idea with Full Chain is that you can, it will quote you on as many, you know, 30, 50 chains possible and between any, any routes that you need. So even if it's an asset that's not supported as liquid equals, it will try and give you a range and intent. So yeah, the, the thought chain is good. It works. It's got a lot of work to do to get it up to where it is, where, you know, it doesn't create a vacuum, you know, the fact that thought chain didn't add a bunch of coins, let Maya add them. Um, and then that, you know, that, and Maya took all of that liquidity routes, which is fine, but we need to get to a point where the protocols are servicing as many routes as possible. And it's doing what it does best, which is just focusing on the liquidity and the security of that liquidity. Doug What do you think will start to bring liquidity back into it? I mean, so it's functioning as intended, you guys got rid of the, you know, the debt issue, obviously, I guess there's some, you know, rebranding that needs to be get done there or messaging, right? So people understand that that's, you know, no longer an issue. So the normies get that. But what do you think ultimately will start to bring in more liquidity so you guys can get back to gangbusters and, you know, having it? Yeah, I mean, JP Quantico runs on a very efficient liquidity model with streaming swaps. So if you just do a swap through an XYK pool, then you're exposed to quite a bit of slippage, depending on the size of your swap. So three years ago, we rolled out streaming swaps, which basically allows time for arbitrage agents to swap back while the swap is taking place. Because while these chains like Bitcoin has a confirmation time of 10 minutes, while the users are already waiting, we can start processing the ARB to finally settle them. So the sharing top is quite liquidity efficient. It really comes down to building the routes and allowing people to earn the fees on those routes and the nodes to secure that. And yeah, but Thorchain also supports an expressive uplier. So we worked really hard to launch Ruji on top of Thorchain. And the protocol allows Ruji, who will build a lending, building lending, perps, order books, to build on top of Thorchain. And we're going to let the Ruji community build all the extra stuff on top so that the base protocol just can focus on liquidity swaps and decentralize custody. Doug I mean big vision is people are trading everything on Thor chain eventually is that like kind of right like your yes So there's there's the L1 your hours stock on Thor chain eventually like into I mean JP Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's all possible to do that. You need an Oracle of, of, you know, Apple or the stock price. And the thought chain now has an Oracle to ingest third party prices and make it available. But for all those apps will be done at the like at the rougie layer. So the idea is that the protocol can service L1 flow between a lot of routes, which is the primary fee fee driver of the network. And then it allows apps to build on top to access those those representations of those assets to allow you to do that. So that that's the task of rougie. And they are well. When is rougie launching? Doug Or, yeah, obviously. JP So the Ruji upload is launched by three. Yeah, the bit the big feature that I was waiting for is Ruji's version of Lending or credit accounts and you you know within six six twelve months you'll be able to deposit any asset into Ruji into what we call a credit account and then you can borrow against let's say you Deposit five different coins Bitcoin, you know tokens Monero even then you allows you and that has a value Let's say your your credit account has a total value of a hundred grand or whatever It'll allow you to borrow against that at some margin in collective And then you can earmark which assets you want liquidated first If your debt that goes below your Clara or if your Clara drops the value So, you know, the idea is that people will deposit, you know, all their assets into a same account Withdraw against that basket of assets and then in the case of volatility they could say are it will liquidate in this order preference Start with my low value assets and but leave my Bitcoin last if that makes sense so that's coming and we think that's gonna be a killer feature because Credit accounts allow you to essentially borrow against any price priceable assets in you all Doug Do you think, I mean, Thor, Thor chain was really rocking and rolling. And then obviously it took this small hit, but like you said, it's coming back. I mean, do you, JP That's true. So it's a very resilient protocol that just keeps on going. So it's obviously a good directory, but yeah, it's, it's faced an existential threat every single year. In 2018, the project got shut down because, you know, we thought multisig was the dead end and it was, but we restarted in 2019 with threshold signatures in 2020. We were struggling to launch our mainnet where there's a whole bunch of problems. In 2021, the theorem router got hacked, had to address that, you know, in 2022, the giant bear market, everything going below value, you know, so on and so forth. It seems like every year the protocol has almost died. And you know, you kind of, you kind of, it is very resilient and you, you know, a protocol that keeps on surviving is a protocol that will just keep on surviving. Doug the windy effect right the Lindy effect uh yeah and partially uh JP protocols are very, these are very complex protocols, right? There is a lot of moving parts. It's not simply just a, you know, a ledger of coin accounts and every block, all you're doing is processing transactions. You know, the, these, the swap protocols are exceedingly complex because they've got to plumb into all these other chains and, you know, tolerate all the nuances and, you know, the, uh, yeah, gas and gas spikes and UTXO. Doug Yeah, no, they're complicated. They're complicated systems. I mean, you're basically trying to build the whole, the whole, a whole financial network. Hey, that's the essential us. So where do you see 13 ultimately getting to? I mean, are you are you super bullish on it? Like, do you see it becoming like one of the main ways that people get in and out of cryptos, like, or between cryptos? Like, does it become like, what part of the pie does it end up taking? Yeah. JP So thought chain is plumbed into most of the world's wallets today. You can jump on ledger, trust, et cetera. And when you swap those, those routes are quoted against full chain routes. Um, so it's, it's plumbed into the wallet infrastructure of the world. Uh, so, and, and that's the primary fee driver of where it is today. But going forward with the app layer, we, uh, you know, this will be under the Ruji brand, we want to attract more TVL into the protocol. And, uh, so like take lending, you deposit, you know, say $100,000 of, you know, one Bitcoin in and you borrow against it. So funds have gone in and then funds have been drawn out. And the protocol is just managing, uh, you know, who owes, who what and charges the interest rate on that. So the TVL, uh, the TVL that's kind of managed by the protocol may only need, need to be low. Uh, but as long as it's generating fees in that TVL, then, uh, you know, that's, that's the future. So in summary, there's two strong drugs with thought chain, decentralized, uh, liquidity network, allowing swaps between the majors and the tokens, and then supporting an expressive app layer to build on top of that. Uh, yeah, so for sure, the, honestly, the best way we, we actually don't need much more support other than when we get this thing live, participate, use it because the more people use it, uh, then, and actually choose to use decentralized swap providers rather than the centralized ones, then it, it drives revenue to, uh, decentralized protocols that people can participate in. Doug Yeah, I'm sure you'll have a lot of people stepping up to do that because they'll be excited about this and they'll want to help bring in more users to Monero via ThorChain. People can now swap into it. It is very exciting, man. So is there also price pressure maybe just from the amount of rune that's in existence or that's being put out, that's being issued? Is that, is that, I don't, why is it Poconomics? What are the... JP Yeah, sure. So ruin is deflationary since last year. There's a fixed supply, and 5% of the system income buys ruin and burns it every day. So that is first the continual deflationary pressure. There's no block rewards, so no's are only earning fees. And I think Fortune is one of the only protocols that's fully, and not just, there's no inflation, but it's fully deflationary. And the system income generates, you know, $20-30 million a year, and all of that $20-30 million of fees are actually buying ruin, burning some of it, and giving the rest into the node operators. So there's a continual, as long as Fortune exists and it swaps, there's this continual bid on the ruin asset itself. And then you can talk about what's the fair valuation of this protocol. I mean, if the protocol is able to support billions of cross-chain flows every day, then, you know, you can run a PE analysis on that, and you can very quickly work out if it's overvalued on the value. Doug What would you say currently right now? JP Uh, I mean with 30 million a year times a modest P 10, uh, yeah, I mean, that's where it is today. It's, it's at 10 XPA, right? But if we can, if we can 10 X the system income, then at 10 XPA, like 10 XPA is very low for a crypto protocol. All these protocols live up in a thousand XPA. All right. So those ones are valued, right? You can run the P for Ethereum and it's overvalued. So your fortune X today is undervalued compared to the comp, you know, the other chains, some chains, you know, make $2 a daily income and I thought she makes 50 to a hundred grand of daily income. All right. So it's, it's undervalued, but the protocol is going in a, uh, you know, a new trajectory. You know, this is the next gen protocol where we have, you know, many chains, many routes supported. It focuses the protocol itself just focuses on the liquidity and security as assets and supports apps to build on top. Right. Doug You probably think I'm crazy because I keep smiling over here. I have my 11 month old That is fast. She keeps grabbing my attention. I look forward to the day rune burns get cranked up I mean, yeah, what what's going to spur that? I mean when so room bursing it cranked up as more people use rune as more people are staking essentially bonding No, no, when do wonder what is there? JP The burn is proportional to the system income. So okay, the protocol needs to make money. It does. It makes a lot of money. It's in the top 10 chains of the world that make money for daily, weekly, monthly income. And so we just need more of that. So how do we access more flows? Well, one is get better price execution, get more routes supported. One of the missteps that we made was we only supported just the majors and that forced aggregators to pop up who were aggregating different protocols together. And that allowed them to charge a margin and take away from thought chains margin. So one of the efforts next year we'll be making is to aggressively add more chains and even quote on routes that aren't fully supported throughout like intense architecture. So you can basically say, hey, I've got this coin, put into the protocol and the protocol will try and match you up with someone willing to buy it and settle you that way. And so that will mean that in the future, you just need to wrap thought chain and it will be willing to quote you on many routes with no middleman in the middle. Doug using the that that in that near intense concept in which is it's uh that that is nice what what Zashi did with uh near intense integrated it's it's very smooth um i'm hoping that we see a version of that for Monero uh with with Thorchain obviously with with Serai as well but they would be nice to see a super slick wallet uh like Monero based primarily but you know with with Thorchain built in it becomes a very super slick way to get in and out of Monero and hold it in a wallet i'm hoping to see the Zashi of Monero with Thorchain JP Yeah, and that's that's certainly possible. Like I said, there's a few missing pieces that that just need to get built. And there are, you know, we're building that right now. And, you know, the vision is clear. The protocol needs to quote on routes and service users. And it needs to. Yeah, access flows that way. And then like protocols need to work and charge fees for those services for them to survive. And the fortune has already crossed that hurdle. Doug Amazing. Yeah, so you mentioned like money-making chain like like, you know cryptos that actually make money through like, you know fees or whatever What are some of the bigger ones? So I think JP Hyperliquid's number one. So Hyperliquid is a giant perps engine. They've made a bunch of compromises along the way, like I said, about the multisead. They have a very fast chain with a very small node count, et cetera. But trying to build for a perps market is a different user experience than trying to build for a lending market. You don't need 200 millisecond block times to build around a lending market because your users, you know, they don't need instant execution. So there's room for many and, you know, but what's clear is people need to be able to move their assets in a decentralized way with no risk of censorship. And you know, the Bybit hack, as unfortunate was to everyone, like there was, when that happened, the Bybit hackers were trying to move their funds through as many protocols as possible. And a lot of them shut down. They just took the nodes offline and said, because the pressure is too great. But, you know, there was no way for thought chain to just hit the pause button on the swaps. You know, all of those early features have been removed in terms of that low safety. And so it was really up to the nodes to do they all go offline or do they just keep swapping because, you know, they are different to where the flow is coming as they should be. And so and that's what happened, that the node operators decided to just stay online and just service the flows and be indifferent to where the flow is coming to and from. So that was a giant test of decentralization. And it was essentially resistant if it worked. Yeah. Yeah. And while the smaller protocols were going offline, the largest one, arguably the one under the most pressure, stayed true to the philosophy of being indifferent to flow with, you know, flow source and stayed online. And, you know, that was, yeah, that a lot of people say that was a negative event for thought chain, but I view it as a positive event for thought chain because, you know, you know, this actor was using Ethereum, Ethereum being offline, was using Bitcoin, Bitcoin being offline. So why should anyone have any expectation that thought should go offline? Doug Yeah, yeah for sure. I mean but Thor chains price reacted negatively to that or there were other things happening at the time Because it like you said it is it does seem to prove concepts like JP Right. So one of the biggest mistakes that we made early on was centralized exchanges. And today, a large essential exchange, I would say is the biggest counterparty to thought chain. It has too much ruin and two minutes users are not users of the protocol. They just speculate on the price on these exchanges. And like that, that needs to be like your new projects shouldn't spend all the time and energy and effort and resources, you know, sucking up to centralized exchanges to get listings, because that will end up being the Achilles heel at the time. And the price action around ruin over the last, you know, 12 months has been driven just literally by centralized exchanges, you know, and, you know, the sentiment of the users who don't care about the protocol, who don't use it. And so, and Monero is a good example. The de-listings of the Monero has led to much, you know, a much fair and much more, you know, Monero has removed its counterparty, which were the exchanges. So that's good. And Monero shouldn't take on another counterparty, like, you know, the large exchanges of the world, and it should see decentralized alternatives where the price is fair, liquid, fair, and it shouldn't have any counterparties. Doug But I love that. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I've been one of the people saying, no, I would love to see Monero on more exchanges. I love the fact that we have, that we're building these decentralized routes, but just for purposes of getting more normies, more users onboarding more people to Monero, because I've had, personally, I've had so many experiences, especially here in New York, where people, I know they're interested in Monero. They want to get their hands on it. They have a Coinbase account. They're new. They're new, right? They have some Dogecoin, whatever it is. They have some Bitcoins, some Litecoin. They're like, how do I get it? You know, just walking them through. JP We, we need to remove the speculators out of a crypto and create more users. And because speculators, you know, over the years, speculators have ruined so much of what crypto is really about because they just speculate on the price of things. And, you know, they're not in it for the tech, they're in it for the, for the gang. Doug But we got to balance that against not wanting to create a moat for ourselves or people who want to use it that are noobish can't easily get it, right? That's like the balance to be made. Which I guess is where Thor Chain hopefully comes in and it becomes just so super slick that it's like as simple as using a set, a centralization change, right? JP Protocols should focus on usage and users and not speculators in playing those silly games. Monero is very decentralized. It's not run by a foundation or like a committee. It's anyone that wants to contribute to Monero can. It will stand the test of time because it actually has users. Whereas protocols that just are in it for the speculators hype pump and dumps and they and they never focus on the users then they are the ones that will die. So I think Monero will always be around and it just needs to focus on you know its top focus should be on privacy. I'm sorry full chain membership proofs is like the most important thing Monero can do. And the second thing is what we can all do is for the builders you know build what's required to get Monero in your products. So for Volusig we're trying to get it in with a threshold signature scheme and we're trying to get a thought chance that people actually move between the two and yeah and just stay true to your ideas because people you got to think the labor force of the future will be the bots. They'll be much bigger than you know us in number and intelligence and agency and you know the nefarious actors of the world will try and censor the bots as they have been. So the bots are going to naturally seek out a solution which gives them privacy against us. And you know the bots will choose the best technology they are indifferent to and they will use it right. They will seek payments and and wrap it. So we've got to we've got to build tools that are not just human friendly but also bot friendly and you know everything should be exposed on API that's and everything should be done on chain. So these bots when they come out in the force and they want to use Monero because they don't want to be censored and they want to like remove the linkages they will use it and we have to get ready you know build the products so that they are ready to start using it. Doug That was going to be one of my final questions because I heard your last interview, we were talking about the bots and yeah, I agree with your thesis there. And I was going to ask you, do you see Monero as being one of those top choice coins is what the bots will be looking to use, right? I mean, they're going to want untraceable digital cash, right? JP Yeah, that's correct. I mean, money is just the ability to start by someone else's time and effort, right? So, you know, it's a temporary parking facility for the future purchase of some machine's time and effort. And the bots are going to want to, well, they're going to need data and information, and they're going to need energy. And so they're going to use a currency that is high bandwidth, low latency, private, and allows them to quickly and efficiently, you know, allow them to buy and sell off each other, or even humans, you know, use us as a data mining or information mining or emotion mining. Who knows what they want from us, but that's coming. So from the top down, we need to build tools that are bot friendly, so not hidden behind API keys and KYC that is literally on chain. It's, you know, audible, verifiable, censorship proof, online, and easily to ingest. And so that's what we try to build. Doug Alright, we have almost 400 live viewers. JP, I'm just going to quickly play a Monerotopia ad for... It's about a minute long, and then we'll close this out. We'll finish it off with one last question, and I'll let you get back to building the financial future. Alright, I had to get that shill out there, especially when I have some Thorchain people that are probably tuning in. I don't really watch this show. JP, what do you think, man? Any chance we could get you down there or somebody from Thorchain? JP Yeah, actually, yeah, well, yeah, we'll check the community and team and see what we can do. Oh, that would be great. Thanks for the chat, Doug. Good to clear out the software. So in summary, we are embarking right now on building a Threshold Signature Scheme for Monero for the purpose of adding it to Voldysig, which is a threshold signature wallet. It will be fully open source as in MIT from top to bottom. And once that's proven and tested out, and we're happy with the assumptions there and the compromises we've made, we will attempt to add it to our stage app, test it all out, and at the same time, do a bunch of work to make, you know, it's easy to add chains, both on Maya and Torchain, but also easier for nodes to run new chains. And that will hopefully happen in 2026. But firm believe is in private, unsatisfiable, financial protocols. Doug Fantastic, man, you know, I'm bullish on Torche and I'm going to go ahead and say it just because, you know, I love that you guys are doubling down on kind of the cypherpunk ethos, I do I do think I do think you guys got a little lost there at some point. I know there was reasons, whatever. But it's nice to see now that, you know, that the cypherpunk roots are strengthening in Torche and it's Monero needs you now more now than ever. So extremely thankful that you're looking to do this work and you guys are going to be putting in the effort and you're going to put in the resources to do it. And I think the Monero community should definitely be behind this effort. So thank you again, man. And hopefully we see you down in Mexico City. Who knows? Awesome. Thanks. Speaker 2 Hi, Monero Land, thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. Monero Talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you. 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