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Herbal Support for Chronic Lyme Disease with Richard Mandelbaum | Holistic Pharmacy Podcast · Pharmacy Podcast Network

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  Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
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  Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the Pharmacy podcast Network.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. I'm your host,
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  Speaker 2: Marina books of and I'm a functional medicine pharmacist in
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  Speaker 2: New York. I'm also a clinical herbalist and an integrative
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  Speaker 2: health coach specializing in mindfulness and empowerment. I'm on a
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  Speaker 2: mission to transform the way we approach healthcare by bridging
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  Speaker 2: the wisdom of traditional medicine with modern practice, and in
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  Speaker 2: this podcast, I will be highlighting guests who do just that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm constantly inspired by them and I know you will
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  Speaker 2: be as well.
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  Speaker 3: Hi everybody, Welcome back to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. And
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  Speaker 3: I have a returning guest today. His name is Richard
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  Speaker 3: Mandelbaum and he was my teacher at arber Vita. He's
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  Speaker 3: a clinical herbalist with a private practice offering personalized health
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  Speaker 3: consultation online and in person in the Southern Catskills, New York.
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  Speaker 3: He has been an avid student of Arnita Flora for
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  Speaker 3: close to forty years, and in addition to seeing clients,
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  Speaker 3: he teaches classes in clinical herbal medicine, field, botany, and phytochemistry.
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  Speaker 3: He's a co founder and core instructor at the arber
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  Speaker 3: Vita School of Traditional Erbalism, and is on the faculty
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  Speaker 3: at David Winston's Center for herbal Studies and the One
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  Speaker 3: Institute of Graduate Studies. He has been a registered herbalist
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  Speaker 3: since two thousand and three and was a member of
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  Speaker 3: the American Herbalist Guild Board of Directors from twenty twelve
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  Speaker 3: to twenty eighteen. He lives with his wife Apriel and
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  Speaker 3: his daughter Rose in their straw Bale home in Forrestburg,
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  Speaker 3: New York. And I will have all the links of
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  Speaker 3: how to get in touch with rich later on in
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  Speaker 3: the show notes and without further ado.
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  Speaker 4: Welcome back, Richard, Thank you, Thank you, Marina. Happy to
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  Speaker 4: talk to you today.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So today we wanted to tackle some of the
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  Speaker 3: topics that we ran out of time from last time,
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  Speaker 3: and I think one of the big ones that we
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  Speaker 3: had wanted to discuss was lime lime disease. Right, it's
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  Speaker 3: kind of a biggie. More and more people are talking
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  Speaker 3: about chronic lime. The literature is there, and the cases
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  Speaker 3: are there. Conventional medicine is finally starting I think to
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  Speaker 3: see that it's there and it needs to be treated
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  Speaker 3: and addressed.
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  Speaker 5: So let's talk about it.
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  Speaker 3: What did you know, what kind of got you into
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  Speaker 3: this work of working with lime?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for that. So for me personally, I've had
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  Speaker 4: lime twice myself. The second time were recently and caught
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  Speaker 4: it pretty quickly. Actually in both cases I was fortunate
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  Speaker 4: to catch it pretty quickly. But the first time, which
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  Speaker 4: goes back, oh over twenty years now, I got a
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  Speaker 4: particularly bad case, particularly of facial palsy from the lime
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  Speaker 4: that took a long time to improve and like a
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  Speaker 4: pretty aggressive approach, So that's kind of a secondary outcome.
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  Speaker 4: Sometimes that's not uncommon with lime and some of the
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  Speaker 4: co infection. As we talk about lime, sometimes I use
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  Speaker 4: lime kind of as a shorthand to include the whole
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  Speaker 4: spectrum of other tikeboar and illnesses so called co infections
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  Speaker 4: on a plasma orliki bartonella bavisio, the ones most common
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  Speaker 4: in our part of the world. But in any event,
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  Speaker 4: sometimes people think, oh, I dealt with it myself. I
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  Speaker 4: had to address it with my own health. Therefore I
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  Speaker 4: want to to like reach out and help other people.
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  Speaker 4: And that's a nice story. But that's not what happened. Really,
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  Speaker 4: it came to me and maybe that was part of it.
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  Speaker 4: And certainly some people sometimes ask if I've ever dealt
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  Speaker 4: with it personally because they find that meaningful that they
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  Speaker 4: want someone to understand, and it's compassionate, and I don't
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  Speaker 4: think you have to have gone through something yourself for
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  Speaker 4: that to be the case. But really, it was no
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  Speaker 4: conscious choice of my own to focus on working with lime.
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  Speaker 4: It just started and I kept working with people, and
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  Speaker 4: we don't have enough practitioners who are both knowledgeable and affordable.
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  Speaker 4: That's sort of the threading that needle is tough out
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  Speaker 4: there who work with lime and chronic lime, and eventually
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  Speaker 4: just started working with it enough that got a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of a reputation, if we can call it that,
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  Speaker 4: for working with it, kind of known for that. I
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  Speaker 4: work with all sorts of things in my practice, not
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  Speaker 4: limited to lime at all, but it's a pretty high percentage,
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  Speaker 4: I would say, of what I work with. And of course,
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  Speaker 4: you know you have to address and I'm sure this
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  Speaker 4: is what we'll get into. You have to address the
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  Speaker 4: whole person with chronic lime, and so in some cases,
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  Speaker 4: the line is central to that approach and honestly. In
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  Speaker 4: other cases it's not and needs to be de emphasized
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  Speaker 4: over other things to address or anything in between. But
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  Speaker 4: individualizing is key. Anyway. It was accidental or at least
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  Speaker 4: not conscious on my part, but now I'm in it
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  Speaker 4: and work with it pretty regularly.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, I completely agree with something that befalls yourself
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  Speaker 3: or your family or a loved one, that gets you
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  Speaker 3: to have an experience or research it or understand certain
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  Speaker 3: aspects and go down rabbit holes.
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  Speaker 5: So it can certainly be very helpful to speak to
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  Speaker 5: people and go.
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  Speaker 3: To a practitioner that has had success personal success and
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  Speaker 3: as a story to share and also can relate and
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  Speaker 3: empathize and understand what people are going through.
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  Speaker 5: So I think that's important.
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  Speaker 3: So what do you feel like is the most challenging
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  Speaker 3: aspect of working through line?
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  Speaker 5: You know, both personally and professionally?
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  Speaker 4: Oh? Can I give maybe two or three? One is
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  Speaker 4: what I was alluding to already. It has to be individualized,
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  Speaker 4: and there are so many cookie cutter approaches. Oh, you
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  Speaker 4: have lime do this and as you know, as other
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  Speaker 4: holistic practitioners know, and holistic and alternative are not the
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  Speaker 4: same thing. I just want to say that off the bat,
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  Speaker 4: and you can use herbs or supplements or other alternative
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  Speaker 4: approaches in a way that's holistic or in a way
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  Speaker 4: that's not holistic. And for me, a fundamental part of
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  Speaker 4: being holistic in my approach is individualizing things. You have
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  Speaker 4: to pay attention to the individual. Certain herbs, for example,
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  Speaker 4: that work with eighty percent of people cause adverse reactions
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  Speaker 4: in the other twenty percent, and sometimes people are told
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  Speaker 4: to power through it, which can be a mistake. We
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  Speaker 4: could talk about hurtz reactions and things like that. So
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  Speaker 4: individualizing crucial in terms of one of the challenges. Another
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  Speaker 4: challenge is once someone has chronic line so we're not
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  Speaker 4: talking about oops, I got bitten by a tick two
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  Speaker 4: weeks ago or yesterday, but this has become deep seated
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  Speaker 4: now and chronic. So in that context, another challenge is
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  Speaker 4: it's a slog It is like you have to be
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  Speaker 4: ready to dedicate time, and as difficult as this is,
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  Speaker 4: I don't say this easily. Be patient that it's going
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  Speaker 4: to take time to pull yourself up out of that hole,
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  Speaker 4: and improvement within months, sometimes quicker, but sometimes I'll work
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  Speaker 4: with people for a year or two or then you know,
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  Speaker 4: gradually less and less as time goes on. But there's
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  Speaker 4: no quick fix here, and along with that a need
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  Speaker 4: to re examine and deconstruct the ideological perspective on what
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  Speaker 4: it is we're trying to accomplish in the first place,
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  Speaker 4: and that can be a real challenge. So if, and
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  Speaker 4: again we're talking about chronic line as opposed to something
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  Speaker 4: more recent as an infection, if we only view that
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  Speaker 4: or primarily view that as an infection that needs to
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  Speaker 4: be killed off, what we end up doing is using
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  Speaker 4: a very depleting approach, even if it's herbal, a very
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  Speaker 4: depleting approach that never really pulls somebody out of the
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  Speaker 4: hole they're in, and you get into this vicious cycle
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  Speaker 4: of symptomatic relief followed by relapse, followed by more symptomatic
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  Speaker 4: relief followed by relapse, without ever breaking free of that cycle.
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  Speaker 4: And the need for nourishment is huge, the need to
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  Speaker 4: support a healthy balanced immune system function, nervous system function,
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  Speaker 4: nutritional support, gut health support, making sure sleep is there,
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  Speaker 4: emotional and mental health. All of these things are actually
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  Speaker 4: what pull you out of it eventually, and attacking the
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  Speaker 4: infection is only a part of it. That and so
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  Speaker 4: sometimes whether it's alternative or conventional. I find there's ninety
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  Speaker 4: percent focus on attacking, and people never really improve in
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  Speaker 4: a deeper, more substantive way. So anyway, you asked for
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  Speaker 4: one charge, I gave you half a dozen. But those
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  Speaker 4: are some of the ones I would think of.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that last point is really important because
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  Speaker 3: you see Western medicine, conventional medicine really go on the
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  Speaker 3: attack a lot of the times on any disease, right,
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  Speaker 3: like war on cancer and let's, you know, use antibiotics
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  Speaker 3: for everything, and let's just kill the germ.
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  Speaker 5: But they often miss the terrain, right, the germ versus
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  Speaker 5: terrain theory that we always talk about in holistic approaches.
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  Speaker 3: So how does this concept play a role when you
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  Speaker 3: try to create a treatment plan for somebody with chronic lime?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought up germ versus
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  Speaker 4: terrain And and I sometimes think we should just call
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  Speaker 4: it germ and terrain right, because they're both true. So
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  Speaker 4: we can sometimes swing the pendulum too far in another
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  Speaker 4: direction as a as a reaction, And there are times
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  Speaker 4: which are vitally important where you view lime and and
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  Speaker 4: the other tick boarn illnesses as infections that you do
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  Speaker 4: want to use approaches that are a little more attacking,
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  Speaker 4: if you will, in in in their activity more anti
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  Speaker 4: microbi antimicrobial activity, for example. But a lot of those
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  Speaker 4: herbs and and and again it's it includes herbs. So
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  Speaker 4: we can talk about antibiotics, and there's a place for that,
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  Speaker 4: but there's a place to be uh deliberate and careful
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  Speaker 4: about that too. But even some of the herbs, like
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  Speaker 4: let's take Japanese not weed for example. Uh, a lot
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  Speaker 4: of people are just making Japanese not weed or andrographists
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  Speaker 4: or we could do cat's claw every day for months
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  Speaker 4: and months, if not longer to address their line. And
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  Speaker 4: those herbs are depleting traditionally, Japanese not weed in Eastern
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  Speaker 4: Asian medicine, as an example, is a depleting herb. You
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  Speaker 4: actually have to be careful using it. If someone's overall vitality,
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  Speaker 4: their overall chi is depleted and deficient. And so even
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  Speaker 4: within an herbal context, we have to be really careful
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  Speaker 4: not to overdo that part of the approach. That said,
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  Speaker 4: I'm absolutely not rejecting that part of the approach. That
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  Speaker 4: part of the approach is vital as well, but it
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  Speaker 4: needs to be deliberate cycled in and out, and at
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  Speaker 4: the same time, like we're saying more nourishing approaches to
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  Speaker 4: just get you out of that cycle. It's interesting because
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  Speaker 4: there are some people who come to me and where
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  Speaker 4: a chronic line might be one of the main things
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  Speaker 4: or the principal thing they want to need to work
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  Speaker 4: with them on addressing. And in some cases we dive
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  Speaker 4: right in and use some of the Lime protocols if
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  Speaker 4: you will, which you know I mentioned a couple rbs
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  Speaker 4: just now, but we can talk. There's a lot more
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  Speaker 4: to it. In other cases, Honestly, I have had some
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  Speaker 4: people in my practice where we end up never doing
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  Speaker 4: that because they end up feeling better gradually over time
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  Speaker 4: without it. It's like, well, should we use those Lime
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  Speaker 4: herbs quote unquote, It's like, well, actually, you're feeling well,
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  Speaker 4: so I don't think so. And so we kind of
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  Speaker 4: are circling back to the need to really individual. If
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  Speaker 4: somebody's very depleted when they come to me, I usually
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: don't go for the stronger liners immediately. I like to
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  Speaker 4: nourish and build someone's strength back up a little bit first,
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: for a couple months. I mean, it depends on the person.
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  Speaker 4: But let's just say before we even consider that, but
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  Speaker 4: these are judgment calls. Working with lime is about judgment
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  Speaker 4: calls from beginning to end all the time, and paying
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  Speaker 4: like I said, paying close attention to the person and
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  Speaker 4: being willing to step back and say, oh, no, that's
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  Speaker 4: a dead end for you, that wasn't the right choice
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  Speaker 4: for you. Let's go that way instead. And being very
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  Speaker 4: responsive that way to how someone is doing is really
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  Speaker 4: important too, I think. So approaching it with humility I
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  Speaker 4: think is really important too.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you bring up really great points around that holistic
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  Speaker 3: approach and being responsive, and it really doesn't differ than
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  Speaker 3: treating anything else. Not that this is medical advice, right,
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  Speaker 3: and we're not saying that we are treating or diagnosing anything.
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  Speaker 3: But when we have that diagnosis of lime, right, it
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  Speaker 3: may make us think that there's some protocol that we
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  Speaker 3: need to be following that takes care of the line.
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  Speaker 3: But what you're saying is that you still have to
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  Speaker 3: look at it in context of the person and everything
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  Speaker 3: else that they have going on, and then figure out
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  Speaker 3: what's the step by step approach, what's the order of operation,
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  Speaker 3: et cetera.
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  Speaker 5: So I completely get that it's individualized. My question to.
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  Speaker 3: You, is is there ever a role for you know,
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  Speaker 3: the more aggressive, perhaps prescription anti microbial regimen approach when
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: somebody gets diagnosed with the lime, let's.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Say, and of course with lime, you'll get every opinion
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  Speaker 4: under the sun. And my joke is, get ten or
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  Speaker 4: bliss in a room and you get eleven different opinions.
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  Speaker 4: But absolutely there's a place for that, particularly when lime
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  Speaker 4: is caught early. And use the word diagnosis Marina, just
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  Speaker 4: to say, that's a whole other can of worms. There's
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  Speaker 4: a lot of lime that goes underdiagnosed or undiagnosed because
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: of the fallibility of the blood work and labs we use.
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  Speaker 4: That's a discussion in and of itself, but it is
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: important for people to know that those tests are not infallible.
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  Speaker 4: And just to briefly say this and then I'll answer
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  Speaker 4: your question more, address that more. What I like to
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: say about the labs that are used for diagnosis, for
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: diagnostic purposes is that they never actually tell you if
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  Speaker 4: you have lime or not. What they tell you is
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: the probability of whether you have lime or not. And
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  Speaker 4: I think that's an important reframing that said, back to
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  Speaker 4: the point you brought up, which is really important. Absolutely,
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  Speaker 4: there's a place from where aggressive antimicrobial protocols. So let's
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  Speaker 4: take antibiotics for instance, and doxa cycline is the standard,
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  Speaker 4: but others come into play for different reasons, different times,
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  Speaker 4: different co infections, et cetera. Certainly, I fully believe that
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  Speaker 4: for the vast majority of people, the if you have,
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: if you have been infected or have a good suspicion
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  Speaker 4: that you have been right, all the clues are adding up,
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  Speaker 4: and it's fairly recent you absolutely should have four weeks
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  Speaker 4: of doxa cycline. Now there are herbs and supplements, vitamins,
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: nutritional support, other things that I think you should be
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  Speaker 4: doing probiotics at the same time continue afterwards, so it
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: doesn't end there, but I think, and again there's always exceptions.
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  Speaker 4: Are people very sensitive to antibiotics, of course, maybe switch
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: to a different one, But there are always exceptions. But
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: for most people, honestly, that would always be my advice,
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: and that would be it's a personal choice, but that
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: would be what I would do for myself my own family.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: Is if you think you've caught it early like that,
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: and herbally in terms of the herbs that have a
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: stronger antimicrobial activity. There's absolutely a crucial place for them
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: in the protocol too. But what I like to do
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: is cycle those in and out. So you're doing let's say,
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: six weeks of a stronger kind of attack mode, and
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: then you pause and you see how the person's doing,
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: and you're nourishing along the way, and you may need
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: to keep going with that a bit longer, or you
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: may a couple months later need to repeat that. That
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: varies individually, but that's an incredibly important part of the protocol.
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  Speaker 4: And again, herbs like japanese not weed like andrographis like
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: kat's claw is satus bone set. Different herbs come into
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: play teasel. But then there are herbs that are more nourishing,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: like sarsparilla, which is a key herb when it comes
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: to lime, and interestingly it lives on both sides of
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: that equation of attack and nourish, which makes it really useful.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: So the point is what I would what I think
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: is you absolutely the vast majority of people do benefit
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: from and do need, in fact, some of those stronger remedies,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: but they should be used judiciously and deliberately and not
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: in an ongoing, tenuous way. If you need those in
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: an ongoing, continuous way. There's some deeper work that needs
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: to be done that hasn't been done yet, and you'll
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: never dig yourself out doing that. So both sides equally important.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: We don't have to reject either one. It's about teloring
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: it to the person and managing all of it in
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: a balanced way.
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for that.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: And a quick follow up to that, I have heard
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: of alternative or naturopathic doctors doing IV antibiotics over periods
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: of time and also APPY therapy.
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  Speaker 5: So what are your thoughts on that?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so interesting where I start to get a bit
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  Speaker 4: more wary of antibiotic therapy when it becomes IV, when
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: it becomes three or four different antibiotics, when it's like
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: six months, eight months, nine months of it, you're starting
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: to talk about a lot of damage to the microbiome
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  Speaker 4: at that point. You know, four weeks of doxy could
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  Speaker 4: do that too. But for most people it's okay, you know,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: compared to the possibility of having a lime infection that's
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: not being addressed. Right, If you weigh those two against
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  Speaker 4: each other, I get a lot more wary when it's
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: continued ongoing approach. Uh, that's that strong, and I'm not
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: as convinced that it's a good idea I do. For
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  Speaker 4: for some people, it's very clear they get symptomatic relief
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: from it, but my question is is it really helping
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: them to dig out of that hole over the longer term.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: So it's it's there's kind of ironic twists with lime.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: You can have a lime literate doctor practitioner, but that
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: doesn't mean they're more holistic. It means the more knowledgeable
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: about line, which is crucial, but it doesn't you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: you can have a line literate doctor who just pummels
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: somebody with antibiotics for three years, So that's something too.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: It's really important for someone with one of these challenges
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: like chronic line to find a practitioner who matches their
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: own perspective and viewpoint. Of course, results are what matter ultimately,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: but there are so many even just thoughts about it.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: And again, if somebody feels like there's certain of what
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: to do in every case out of the gate, that
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: would be enough to make me wary. To be honest,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: I think we have to be humble and recognize how
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: little we understand about lime. And in terms of other therapies,
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: there's ozone therapy, there's APPA therapy. Like you're saying, APA
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: therapy can be quite helpful for rheumatic and arthritic can editions.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know that it's addressing the underlying line, but
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: addressing someone's pain, someone's discomfort, someone's lack of mobility is
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: all crucial to helping them recover as well. So certainly
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: I'm in favor. And there was an interesting study published
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: a few years ago that showed that there are genetic
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: fragments DNA fragments of Burrellia Burgdorfry, which is the primary
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: species of Spira key that causes line. There's actually a
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: few others in the mix, but that that you can
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: actually detect in the joints of people with chronic arthritic
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: symptoms from having had lime disease. So there there's now
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: now definitive scientific evidence that this is real. I think
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: anyone who at this point is still saying chronic line
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: is not real is ignoring the science on it. But
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: another interesting irony in all this is if you go
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: to the CDC, which does not recognize chronic lime, they
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: also are wary of long term iv antibiotic therapy. So
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: in some strange twist, I'm more in agreement with that
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: specific part of their opinion, despite the fact that it's
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: based on a denial of reality. But then also one
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: of the things they point out is that you might
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: have like a post disease syndrome where you're experiencing inflammation,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: other which is am mediated, other neurological symptoms that may
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: not actually be an active infection. And I actually think
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: there's some truth to that too, which is why some
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: people never need actually that attack mode to get better.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: They actually need their immune system reminded how to calm
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: itself down. So as in all things, it gets complicated,
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: but there's there's there's a place for all of this.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: But but some of it can get to extreme levels,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: I think, and I would say continued ongoing antibiotic therapy
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: is one of the things that I I'm pretty wary
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: of personally.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely agree with that too, because even like
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: you said, short dose like dosing courses and interventions can
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: do a lot of harm, a lot of damage, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: it's very hard to rebuild what you have lost once
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: there's damage there in the microbiome. And you know, even
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: like through lineages of the human that all the species
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: that we have probably lost over the couple last generations
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: as we were doing, you know, no longer breastfeeding as much,
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: no longer having vaginal delivery as much. So the biome
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: has been changing, and probably not in a good way.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: And now antibiotics are just routinely used, and each course
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: that you have to take orre are told that you
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: have to take, can potentially throw you over the edge.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: And so it's very it's something to really keep in mind,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: I think, the pros versus the cons, and also trying
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: to be on the more like preventative side of not
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: having to take antibiodis not getting to a point where
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: there's this need or this question, and.
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: That's difficult to do, right.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: But let's talk a little bit about the prevention, like
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: what would be your best tips about not having lime
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: infections or other co infections, how to avoid that, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: then also if you do see a tick, what should
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: you do?
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Yes, let's talk about that. And also if there's any time,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: I'd love to share a little more about mental health
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: aspects of chronic lime because it gets sometimes not discussed
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: and it can be quite traumatic for people going through that.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: But yeah, in terms of prevention, I so much agree.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: And one of the interesting things about lime is that
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: we don't actually know what percentage even vaguely of people
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: who are infected with lime infected with Barellia burgdorfry actually
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: ever get symptomatic or sick. In other words, it might
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: be a strong majority of people infected who get sick,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: or it might be very low. And the reason we
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: don't know that is, first of all, the tests are fallible,
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: like we said earlier, but then also on top of that,
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: you generally only get tested for lin if you have
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: a suspicion that it might be the case, and so
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: we actually don't even know. For example, back to germ
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: and terrain, it may be that only a very small
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: percentage of people quote unquote infected ever gets sick. So
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: prevention so key that you brought up nourish your terrain. Now,
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: we're all in different places. We don't get to always
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: choose when something tragic or traumatic or stressful happens to us. Right,
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: some of us are more fortunate than others, So we
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: don't want to create like an illusion that we're always
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: in control of how we're doing health wise. People have
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: different access financially and otherwise to healthy food, and so
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: but we do the best we can. And so the
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: best we can do with food, with sleep, with immune
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: system health, with nervous system health, with microbiome health, as
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: you're pointing out, the better we're going to do. And
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: one of the interesting things that I've started really paying
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: attention to with chronic lime is that it's very often
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: a one two or one two three punch, Meaning most
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: people that I talk to who are suffering from chronic
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: line lingering lime, oh, maybe there's mold toxicity, maybe there's
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: long COVID, maybe there is heavy metal, a heavy metal load,
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: something that, very frequently something emotionally stressful or challenging or
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: traumatic happened leading up to this. Not always, none of
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: those things are always true, but very often so it
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: changes our perspective on like preventing lime. It's a saying,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: just like we were both saying earlier, our health as
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: a whole, and not just like, oh, how do we
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: prevent this bacterium from getting in our bloodstream? There's a
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: there's a there's a value to that, but that's missing
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: a lot. I think if we just kind of laser
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: focus on that, that said, how do we prevent how
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: do we reduce the likeli and of the bacteria met
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: during our bloodstream. First of all, there are natural tick repellents.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: Natural based repellents, you have to keep in mind have
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: a very short efficacy window. So if you have a
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: very effective essential oil based repellent, which they can be
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: very effective, and even the CDC recognizes that some of
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: the essential oils are as effective as deep but their
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: efficacy only lasts about a half hour, so you have
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: to keep reapplying throughout the day to really keep up
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: the efficacy. And then the biggest, most important thing down
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: in my opinion, the most important thing is a full
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: body tick check at the end of every day, and
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: even if you haven't been outside that day, if you
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: live in a lime area, and what is a lime area,
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: increasingly it's anywhere on the planet. I mean, I've had
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: clients in parts of the US or other countries where
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: there's not supposed to be lyme and it turns out
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: they have it. We get on planes, we carry ticks
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: all over the planet, so you have to keep it
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: in mind. But that full body tick check, if you
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: have someone who can help look the places you can't
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: readily see, even better crucial because the statistical likelihood of
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: the infection having been passed to you is very very low.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: If you catch the tick the same day, it's the
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: ones that we missed and opes this has been on
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: me for a day or two or three, then we're
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: more likely to be in trouble. Not every tick is
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: infected if you catch it. If you find a tick
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: and you think you missed it and it's been on
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: you while you can send it to a lab to
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: be tested, you can take a single day's worth of
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: doxy which has been shown to help prevent it if
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: you catch it that early, or you can jump on
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: herbs as well, and vitamin D is crucial. B vitamins
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: are often helpful. Golden seal can be helpful. So there's
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: a number of things to do. But that tick check
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, and they can be
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: quite small when they're in the nymph stage. To look
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: really carefully, I think is actually the best. And of
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: course keeping our immune system strong, so to name an herb,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: for instance, Astraggalus wonderful erb along with medicinal mushroom, shaitaki rashi,
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: things like that turkey tail. To keep our immune system
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: as strong as we can. Again, nutritionally vitamin C, vitamin D,
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: zinc is going to be really helpful. That said, just
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: a note about it. A straggleists because a lot of
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: the functional medicine world gets this wrong, and there are
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: a lot of lime products and formulas out there, and
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: even not just functional medicines, some in the herbal world
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: get this wrong. A straggles should not be used when
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: you're actively fighting off an infection. So if you're using
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Japanese notweed in cat's claw and et cetera, a straggler
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: should not be in the mix at that stage. It's
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: a nourishing herb, so it should be used both before
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: preventively and then in the rebuilding strengthening stages of a protocol.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: And I'm amazed that just is all over the place
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: right now there are lime formulas mixing those herbs together
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: and saying no, those these should be us at different stages. Actually, anyway,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: I'm digressing a little bit, but those are some thoughts
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: on prevention.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then if you do spot a tick, you're
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: supposed to take it out with tweezers, so you get
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: the whole thing out and it's pretty tough to kill, right,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: So you either have to light on fire. But now
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: the new sort of strategy is to put in a
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: little ziplog baggie and send it out for testing. So
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: that is the most surefire way to kind of see
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: if there's any risk at all that it passed something
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: onto you.
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: Is that correct?
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And some people mistakenly say, oh, all the ticks
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: have lime or one of the confections. It's not true.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: I forget if the exact number is closer to fifty percent,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: but it's not true that they all are. And so yeah,
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: you know, if you spend a lot of time outdoors
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: like I do, you can't send every tick away that
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: you find on yourself. It's really about, oh I think
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: I missed this one. It's a little engorged. This might
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: have been on me for over twenty four hours something
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: like that. Then it is definitely useful to send those
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: away and see what the if they are in fact infected. Absolutely.
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: So because we mentioned that, it's kind of tricky to
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: understand the diagnosis or get an accurate diagnosis of lime
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: because our ways of testing that are flawed. And again,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: even if you test the tick, it's unclear whether it
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: got a chance to pass it on to you, et cetera.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: So when we are working with somebody that may suspect lime,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: or maybe you suspect it as a differential diagnosis, what
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: are some of the things that you look for, some
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: symptoms that would kind of ring off to you that, okay,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: maybe I should suspect lime.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, thank you for that. So lime is almost always
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: a wind disharmony. That's how it would be described in
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: Chinese medicine. It's a erratic, it's unpredictable, it's moving. So,
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: for instance, arthritic symptoms, if somebody tells me, oh, yeah,
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: this really hurts, is it always that joint? Yeah, it's
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: out suddenly your hip or your left knee or then
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: switches to your righting. No, not really, it's like, okay,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: lower likelihood. We're talking about lime. Lime is like it's
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: here and then it's here, and then it's my hip
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: and then I have a good two weeks and then
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: it's horrible again. So very windy and symptoms. Not everyone
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: has arthritic symptoms, but that's just as an example. Sometimes
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: people know the story like this all started with a
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: tick bite, but they told me, based on the blood tests,
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I don't have it. But I was fine. Beforehand, I
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: wasn't chronically fatigue like I am now. I wasn't depressed,
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: I you know, mentally, So I mentioned mental health. This
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: isn't true for everyone. Some people don't experience this, but
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: lime can send you to dark places, nightmares, feeling like
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: you're being overtaken, feeling like you're not yourself anymore, having
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: thoughts that don't feel like your own native health, a
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: word recall in particular, just like not being able to
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: kind of get to the words you're thinking of. So
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: there are definitely clues in there. And again some people
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: that creating the timeline is so crucial because some people
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: already know or again, you know you can recreate that
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: with somebody. At the same time, it's important for practitioners,
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: I think, to always check themselves and not see something everywhere.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: So there are people who come to me initially thinking, oh,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: line's the thing I think we need to address, and
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: I might come to a different conclusion. I had one client,
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: just as an example, Marina, who was experiencing all sorts
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: of arthritic rheumatic condition symptoms, had a history of lime
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: back in the past, just assumed like, oh, this is
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: still the lime. I looked at her blood work and
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: her uric acid levels were sky high. Well that's not lime.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: You could have both, but uric acid alone will cause
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: all sorts of red painful gout like inflammation in the
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: body and a very different approach. So we also it's
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: also important to kind of check ourselves and not see
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: lime everywhere. But those are those are some of the
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: things that I would look for.
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's really helpful, Thank you, Richard.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: And let's also throw this question in there. This might
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: be a big one, but let's try to keep it succinct.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: If you had unlimited resources and somebody came to you
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: and you both decided and agreed based on the whole
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: holistic picture that the person's presenting with that lime is
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: definitely part of the problem that needs to be prioritized.
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: Then what would you create as.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: A sort of plan in order of priority for this person,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: including herbs or maybe like heat.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: Therapy and sweat therapy. We haven't talked about that yet.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: You mentioned ozone, Like, what would be the things that
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: you would want to have on board without again overwhelming
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: the person with the amount of treatment that being is
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: being thrown at them.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's a good point, and I think it's
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: important that it's practical and affordable to somebody. At the
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: same time, I think you do have to be a
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: little aggressive with this. You can't just sort of, you know,
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: drink one or a bit a tea per day and
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: expect a big shift. Right. So it is work, which
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: is harder because of the society we're in. We really
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: should have a community around us that's bringing us food
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: and bringing us irves and like it's you know, but
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: instead we feeling sick have to do this for ourselves often,
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: which is not the way it should be. That said,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: you mentioned heat therapy, so saunas I think are the best,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: better than hot baths or hot tubs, although that can
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: still be helpful, but taking some diaphoretic herbs that help
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: release to the exterior, induce healthy sweating, yarrow boneset and
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: if someone has access to a sauna, so you said
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: without limitations, right, So sauna best case scenario as much
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: as you can, but not to depletion, right. Not you
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: should not feel horrible, horrible coming. That means you overdid it.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: And I think mindfulness practices addressing gut health and digestion
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: if it needs to be making sure the person is
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: sleeping enough, that's crucial. And when we're recovering from illness,
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: sometimes we need to sleep more. So forget eight hours,
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: that's hard enough, but someone might need nine or ten
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: for several months. Sometimes I'll recommend to people just try
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: getting nine a night now. Of course they might need
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: help getting nine a night right with herbs or other things.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: But even if we don't need the help, sometimes we
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: don't allow ourselves to sleep. Our our culture's attitude towards
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: sleep is incredibly dysfunctional, and so giving someone permission to
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: sleep enough to start to recover is huge. And then
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: I would say gentle immune system support, the medicinal mushrooms
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: rati cortyceps, which is also adaptogenic, so helping with adrenal
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: response and stress response. Sarsparilla I mentioned as an adaptogenic
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: herb that helps with recovery, and vitamin D often a
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: B complex if it's indicated, which it often is, vitamin C.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: In terms of nutritional support, microbiome support, so pre and
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: probiotic foods, anti inflammatory foods that are rich and solicolates
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: for example, and healthy fats moving away from the unhealthy fats.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: So all of that's important and then what I would
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: say in addition besides just of course paying attention to
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: the this person might need this, this person might need that.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: Like I said, mental health is huge for some people,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: not there for other people, cognitive health, et cetera. But
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: other than that, what I tend to do is I
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: have a six week protocol that often gets amended for
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: the individual, but that has a series of different herbs.
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: It's three different formulas that I rotate people through for
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: six weeks. They're doing other stuff at the same time,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: and then we pause and we reassess, and sometimes we
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: repeat that or sometimes no, let's focus on nourishing, and
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: we might return to that in a month or three months,
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: or six months or a year. Sometimes I'll get a
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: call from someone, you know, two years later after they
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: stopped working with me, and they're like, I'm having a relapse.
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: Almost always something stressful happened to trigger that something happened.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: But then we address it as needed, and Michael is
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: always to give somebody the tools they need to address
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: it themselves as much as possible. And then other things
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: can come up, like chronic line can be a can
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: a little bit morph into a certain degree of autoimmunity
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: when the immune system is revved up and then doesn't
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: know how to calm itself back down. So anti inflammatory
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: herbs that are kind of being a little metaphorical here,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: like reminding the immune system how to calm itself back down.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: Sometimes more important or as important as like fighting an
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: infection by call skull caps whinner that can be really
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: helpful for that. Anyway, those are some things that often
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: come in the mix, but any one of those might
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: be inappropriate for a specific person.
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: Wow, thank you so much for sharing all of that.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: You've mentioned so many herbs, and I think whoever is
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: listening to this podcast, you know we'll get a lot
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: of gold from this episode, especially if you're dealing with
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: lime or wanting to get exposed to new approaches for it.
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: But I want to end with this, Richard.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: We kind of started this episode by talking about managing
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: expectations as related to healing and somebody's goals, And so
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering, is the goal to completely eradicate lime and
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: get back to life the way it was before somebody
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: got lime? Is that even possible? Or is it about
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: finding a way to coexist? Like how do you manage
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: somebody's reframes around this.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks, thank you for that, Marina. And it is
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: a good place to end on and it's an important topic.
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: And again you'll get all sorts of opinions. I think
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: that that sort of idea that you mentioned earlier, of
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: you know, six months or nine months or twelve months
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: of ivy and antibiotic therapy, the idea is just to
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: kill kill it, get it out, eradicate it. I what
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: I like to remind myself of and talk to people about,
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: is this goes back to the testing. We have no
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: way to even prove that it's gone like we literally
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: do not. Anyone who says we do is ignoring the
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: limitations of our scientific knowledge. We cannot ever say that definitively.
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: And again we also don't know how many people have
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: LINE in their systems but are fine and asymptomatic. So
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: you kind of put those two together, and for me,
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: it does not make sense. And again we're talking chronic line.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: We're not talking about a recent infection. That's different. Go
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: get the doxy. In my opinion, get it out right,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: I think that's possible, and it's in your mirror, your
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: good in a lot of those scenarios, but chronic line
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: very different. I do not think the goal is to
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: kill something off and eradicate it. The metaphor I use
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: is you've got a roommate now, and it's kind of
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: like a roommate or a housemate. You know, are they
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: doing their dishes, are they paying their share of the
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: rent on time? Or are they making messes and keeping
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: up all night with noise and right, so there is
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: a place for like getting things under control with stronger remedies.
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: But then it's really about coexistence, which is not I
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: was just talking to a client recently about this. This
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: does not in any way mean giving into the fact
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: that you're going to feel sick. I do not mean that.
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: I do not believe that it's about feeling well. But
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: with this new context for yourself, and it may very
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: well be that you need to keep it in mind
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: in the future and you need to remind yours. Oh yeah,
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: I'm feeling unwell because maybe this is a flare up.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: So I know what to do about it now so
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: that it doesn't spiral out of control and I regain
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: feeling well. Right. So, but it's about it no longer
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: interfering with your wellness emotionally, physically, and otherwise. And that's
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: that's really the goal. I think.
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: All right, yeah, thank you so much for your wisdom.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Everything that you've shared today again is really really useful
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: information and really applicable. So I want to end with
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: a very quick rapid fire around. And the first question
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: I'm going to ask is if you could share something
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: with a person struggling with lime chronic line in particular,
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: right now, what would be the number one tip that
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: you can give them so they could improve their quality
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: of life right now?
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: Oh? I know you said rapid fire. I mean find
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: a practitioner who believes you and who respects you. I
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: think that's that's what I would say.
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: Love that so important.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: Okay, second question is what would you say to somebody,
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: whether or not they had lime or some other issue
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: that they're sort of losing faith and hope in ever
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: overcoming or crossing a particularly challenging hurdle. What could you
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: tell that person right now?
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: I have worked with a number of people I've never
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: counted the numbers, but with a fair number of people
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: at this point who have had chronic line for five years,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: ten years, fifteen years, And like I said, earlier. I
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: don't want to paint it as easy. It's a slog,
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: it's a lot of work, it will take time. But
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: if you do it, if you really address what you
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: need to, you get better. You do.
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: All right, awesome message, Richard, Thank you again, and I'd
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: love for you to finish off by sharing with folks
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: how they can get in touch and maybe something that
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: you're looking forward to, maybe this summer or just in general,
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: any events or things that you're having or you're excited about.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you for that, Marina. So the best place
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: is to go to my website, which is my full name,
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: Richard Mandelbaum dot com. I'm not on social media, so
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: you won't find me there. It's a conscious choice just
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: to reduce my screen time. But for folks in the area,
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: so again, I'm in the Southern Catskills. Like you mentioned,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: I do offer classes and workshops through the summer. Most
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: of my teaching is within established programs, but in the
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: summer I offer stuff for folks who are nearby. And
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: in terms of something I'm looking forward to, one thing
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: I need for myself every summer is a little bit
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: of wilderness camping and I like to do that with
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: friends and family, but I also make it a point
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: every year to disappear for several days at least by myself,
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: to reset. That's kind of my own silent retreat out there.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: And where I'm going to go this year was one
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: of my absolute favorite places in the world, which is
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: the Adirondacks up in northern New York and just this
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: treasure of wilderness. And sometimes I go backpacking. Sometimes I
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: take my kayak and just go out onto some of
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: the lakes and ponds and disappear for a bit. So
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: I'm really looking forward to that.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds so good and an awesome reminder too
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: for everybody.
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: Just get off your.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: Screen once in a while and lose yourself in nature,
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: so so important for healing and mental health and everything
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: that we talked about, even lime.
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: You know, don't let lime.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Scare you away from nature is I think another message too,
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: And just wear along clothing, cover yourself, protect yourself, tick check,
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: et cetera. But don't let it scare you away.
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: All right, Thank you.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: So much, Richard, and enjoy everything that you have mentioned
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: and I hope to see you again soon.
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: Bye.
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: Thanks Marina. Yeah, take care, Thank.
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: You for tuning.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: In to another episode of the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast, and
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I truly hope you enjoyed the show. If you learn
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: so thing useful in this episode, please consider giving the
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: show a five star rating and a sincere review so
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that more people can find it or share it with
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: a friend directly. To get in touch with me, you
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: can find me on social media by looking up my
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: name Marina books Of, or email me at Marina at
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: rawfork dot com. Take good care and see you soon.