Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Serj Tankian Talks Toxicity and Activism

Transcript

Serj Tankian Talks Toxicity and Activism · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin, System of a Down's classic Rick Rubin produced album
0:27
Speaker 1: Toxicity turns twenty this year. Released in two thousand and one,
0:32
Speaker 1: one week before nine eleven, the politically charged and wildly
0:36
Speaker 1: bizarre nature of Toxicity provided the perfect soundtrack for a
0:40
Speaker 1: world descending into chaos and the river and water after
0:50
Speaker 1: the swimming through the mine, we hear the word search Tonkin,
1:06
Speaker 1: the lead singer System, is no stranger to conflict. His
1:10
Speaker 1: families Armenian and migrated to la from Lebanon to escape
1:14
Speaker 1: a civil war when Surge was seven years old. In
1:17
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, he grew up in a tight knit Armenian
1:20
Speaker 1: community along with the rest of his younger System bandmates.
1:25
Speaker 1: As Surgeon's star began to rise in the late nineties,
1:27
Speaker 1: his activism intensified, and to this day, he continues to
1:31
Speaker 1: raise awareness around the Armenian genocide and the impact of
1:35
Speaker 1: corporate greed. Last month, he released the documentary Truth to Power,
1:40
Speaker 1: which documents the intersection of Serge's work as a musician
1:43
Speaker 1: and an activist. Today we'll hear Rick Ruman talked to
1:47
Speaker 1: his good friend's Surge about how hearing bombs drop outside
1:50
Speaker 1: his childhood bedroom turned him into a lifelong activist. Surge
1:54
Speaker 1: also explains how a pretty odd and funny line about
1:57
Speaker 1: a tapeworm almost caused System of a Down to break up,
2:01
Speaker 1: and why the first time Tomorello of Rage against the
2:03
Speaker 1: Machine hurt System Play. He called it music for crazy people.
2:11
Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age.
2:14
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and searche Tonkian. Maybe
2:24
Speaker 1: we start by talking about the movie. How did the
2:27
Speaker 1: movie come about? So the idea originally was in twenty eleven.
2:31
Speaker 1: We're you know, two elevens, the year that System of
2:34
Speaker 1: a Down started touring again after years of hiatus, and
2:38
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to have an incredibly busy
2:40
Speaker 1: professional year. I was touring with System of a Down,
2:43
Speaker 1: touring with my backup BANDFCC, doing orchestral shows with different
2:46
Speaker 1: orchestras around the world, going to Armenia protest movements like,
2:51
Speaker 1: doing all this crazy. That year I knew was going
2:54
Speaker 1: to be insane in terms of work. So I thought,
2:56
Speaker 1: you know what, I should put on a camera on
2:59
Speaker 1: my head like a GoPro and spyglasses and have someone
3:02
Speaker 1: following me the whole time, and let's record everything. And
3:05
Speaker 1: I did but I realized watching the footage after a
3:08
Speaker 1: while that, you know, the idea of a POV film
3:11
Speaker 1: of an artist looking behind the scenes is interesting if
3:15
Speaker 1: the artists can keep their heads still. But my head
3:17
Speaker 1: was like a bird like. It was impossible to watch
3:21
Speaker 1: and what is the meaning of all these experiences? Anyway?
3:23
Speaker 1: There was no narrative, no written theme or script or
3:27
Speaker 1: anything like that. So a friend of mine and I
3:29
Speaker 1: were discussing this, and I had the drives of all
3:32
Speaker 1: the footage, and he's like, what are we really trying
3:35
Speaker 1: to say? What do you what's the story you want
3:37
Speaker 1: to tell? And after discussing, you know, system of a
3:40
Speaker 1: down music art and all of this, it turned out,
3:44
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the most interesting story was that
3:46
Speaker 1: of the activist in me, and how before music and
3:51
Speaker 1: before the success of the band, no small thanks to you,
3:55
Speaker 1: you know, I had a smaller voice, and then with
3:58
Speaker 1: the success of the band, my voice became more pronounced,
4:02
Speaker 1: and that had its ramifications as well as the fruits
4:05
Speaker 1: of that labors in terms of seeing things come into fruition.
4:09
Speaker 1: When did you first feel the desire to participate in
4:13
Speaker 1: the culture in this way as an activist? I was
4:17
Speaker 1: a teenager Rick and my grandfather, all my grandparents were
4:21
Speaker 1: survivors of the Armenian genocide, and their stories were very powerful,
4:26
Speaker 1: you know, how they saw their family parish and how
4:29
Speaker 1: they survived, and yet the US government hadn't formally recognized
4:34
Speaker 1: the Armenian Genocide. And for me, it was like, why
4:37
Speaker 1: are we living with this hypocrisy in a democracy where
4:41
Speaker 1: the government hasn't properly recognized the truth of history of
4:45
Speaker 1: what's happened to my people. And to me, that instantly
4:49
Speaker 1: made me an activist because I realized that there are
4:52
Speaker 1: so many other truths out there that are being denied
4:55
Speaker 1: for political expediency, economic purposes, or for whatever reason. That's
5:00
Speaker 1: what it was, So I was an activist before becoming
5:02
Speaker 1: an artist. Yeah, it's an interesting way in and the
5:06
Speaker 1: point you make about so much of what we're told
5:10
Speaker 1: it's not true. You know, it's like there's always a
5:13
Speaker 1: narrative that's for our whole lives. We've been presented these
5:17
Speaker 1: series of narratives and the history books that we were
5:21
Speaker 1: given as kids, probably you know, ninety percent of what's
5:24
Speaker 1: in them is not really true. It's a crazy revelation
5:28
Speaker 1: to have. Yeah, but it's interesting that you took that
5:31
Speaker 1: information and wanted to do something about it. I almost
5:35
Speaker 1: have the opposite feeling. It's like I don't want to
5:37
Speaker 1: do anything, like I just I accept that we're not
5:41
Speaker 1: being told what's going on. That's that's very interesting. And
5:45
Speaker 1: I have that feeling too sometimes, Rick, because you get overwhelmed,
5:49
Speaker 1: you know, on that end, and when you do, you're
5:51
Speaker 1: just like, I just want a musical project to jump
5:54
Speaker 1: into so I can lose myself in it and not
5:57
Speaker 1: think about all these worldly things, so I could just
6:00
Speaker 1: be an artist and be free again, and then I
6:03
Speaker 1: can gain that battery energy and love energy and then
6:07
Speaker 1: come back and fight a good fight. Beautiful. It's interesting
6:10
Speaker 1: because also I feel like the fact that you're taking
6:13
Speaker 1: action there is some belief in you that you can
6:16
Speaker 1: change something. And that's awesome, thanks brother. But you've changed
6:19
Speaker 1: a lot of things yourself, you know, in different ways though,
6:22
Speaker 1: and not on purpose, you know. Never it has never
6:26
Speaker 1: happened through wanting to change anything. It's always happened just
6:30
Speaker 1: through wanting to make something good and then something changes
6:34
Speaker 1: in reaction to it. But it's never been the goal
6:37
Speaker 1: to change anything, I don't think. But isn't that what
6:41
Speaker 1: it is? Like your vision, whatever that vision is, and
6:43
Speaker 1: you're following it properly, and you're you're you're being in
6:46
Speaker 1: tune with it, which I know you've always been, at
6:48
Speaker 1: least as far as I know. On you makes that change,
6:51
Speaker 1: whether it's music or or having artists that you work
6:55
Speaker 1: with feeling incredibly comfortable to create the best of what
6:58
Speaker 1: they create. I mean, that's it's a very unique gift
7:01
Speaker 1: that you know that I'm grateful that you've shared with us. Yeah,
7:05
Speaker 1: cool man, Let's talk about music a little bit. First
7:09
Speaker 1: varience of music in your life? What do you remember?
7:11
Speaker 1: First experience of music in my life would be my
7:13
Speaker 1: dad singing in the house. My dad had a wonderful,
7:17
Speaker 1: beautiful voice, still does, and loved singing musician, but not professionally,
7:23
Speaker 1: and because his dad died when he was really young,
7:26
Speaker 1: and he didn't think he could make a living doing music,
7:29
Speaker 1: and so he became a designer, shoe designer and studied
7:34
Speaker 1: in Milan and got into that business. But he would
7:37
Speaker 1: sing at home a lot. And in fact, the song
7:40
Speaker 1: that we show in the film that I sing with
7:42
Speaker 1: my dad, the song about the Stork, is a song
7:45
Speaker 1: that could be the first song I ever heard when
7:48
Speaker 1: I was really young and him singing it, and I
7:50
Speaker 1: would try to harmonize with him and sing with him.
7:52
Speaker 1: But I think that's the first musical memory that I
7:56
Speaker 1: have as a kid. Did your family speak Armenian in
8:00
Speaker 1: the house or English predominantly Armenian? Interesting, So would you
8:03
Speaker 1: say Armenian would be your first language? Sort of wow,
8:09
Speaker 1: I never knew that. Yeah. So I was born in Lebanon,
8:13
Speaker 1: and I was seven when we came over during the
8:16
Speaker 1: Lebanese Civil War and still spoke Armenian. Went to a
8:20
Speaker 1: private Armenian school here in Hollywood. I knew a little
8:23
Speaker 1: English when I was a kid, but you know, I
8:24
Speaker 1: learned it mostly in Los Angeles. And it's funny because
8:28
Speaker 1: when you're bilingual or multilingual, I think you always think
8:32
Speaker 1: in your first language, and that can change over time.
8:36
Speaker 1: So now when I speak Armenian, I'm actually thinking in
8:39
Speaker 1: English and speaking in Armenian, whereas before I used to
8:41
Speaker 1: think in Armenian and speak in English when I was younger.
8:44
Speaker 1: Really interesting. It also makes sense for some of your
8:47
Speaker 1: lyrical choices have always been While it's always poetic, sometimes
8:52
Speaker 1: the choice of the order of some of the words
8:55
Speaker 1: is like it's it's unusual, and I'm wondering if that
8:58
Speaker 1: comes from it being a second language. Very likely. Yeah, yeah,
9:02
Speaker 1: that reminds me. I remember people because when we were
9:06
Speaker 1: doing our first record, you were talking to me about
9:08
Speaker 1: certain miracle stanzas and don't ever get like, don't ever
9:13
Speaker 1: get stuck in this sky. And you told me, well,
9:16
Speaker 1: whatever you're on, whether it's pot or whatever, aren't you
9:20
Speaker 1: supposed to be in this? Guy Like you were like
9:22
Speaker 1: going yeah, But I'm like, yeah, but the way I
9:24
Speaker 1: see it is don't ever get stuck in the sky
9:26
Speaker 1: because it's too good, like that kind of a thing.
9:28
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I know what you're saying. It's a
9:31
Speaker 1: kind of different way of seeing things. It's a different perspective,
9:34
Speaker 1: I guess. Interesting. So cool. It's fascinating because we know
9:39
Speaker 1: each other so well to talk about this stuff. Just
9:42
Speaker 1: really interesting, it is. Do you remember your first experience
9:46
Speaker 1: of Western music of like popular music. I don't remember
9:50
Speaker 1: what's the first popular or Western music, but I do
9:53
Speaker 1: remember the first records that I ever bought, and I
9:56
Speaker 1: was probably seven or eight years old. Columbia House had
10:00
Speaker 1: the you know, the club where you could join and
10:03
Speaker 1: you get like five or six finals for free and
10:05
Speaker 1: then you had to buy one a year or two
10:07
Speaker 1: a year. I forgot what it was, and I remember
10:09
Speaker 1: being really excited about it and getting those first five records,
10:14
Speaker 1: you know, I want to say. I mean it was
10:15
Speaker 1: seventy probably seventy six or seventy seven, right, So Rick
10:20
Speaker 1: James was in there, which was also at the time
10:24
Speaker 1: Barbara Streisan and Barry Gibb Guilty. Like I think about
10:27
Speaker 1: seven eight records that first year. What else was in there?
10:30
Speaker 1: Not a lot of rock, maybe Chuck Mangione or something
10:34
Speaker 1: like that, trumpet player, just different things whatever as a
10:37
Speaker 1: kid that I had heard from my uncle or someone play.
10:40
Speaker 1: My uncle really loves Stevie Wonder. He would play stev
10:43
Speaker 1: Wonder when we were living with them when we first
10:45
Speaker 1: came to the States. And a lot of soul. I
10:48
Speaker 1: remember a lot of soul from the seventies and disco obviously. Yeah.
10:53
Speaker 1: Do you remember living in Lebanon as a kid. I
10:57
Speaker 1: have specific visual memories, almost like snapshots, because I was young.
11:01
Speaker 1: So I remember my grandparents house where that was our house,
11:05
Speaker 1: and our little backyard where we used to play. I
11:09
Speaker 1: remember my school, our school that we went to, and
11:13
Speaker 1: a couple of others like the beach and a couple
11:15
Speaker 1: of sceneries, and then I remember the war, and what
11:17
Speaker 1: I remember about the war is in the war I
11:20
Speaker 1: just started. I remember ducking in our bedroom with my
11:23
Speaker 1: brother because of the bombs falling, and school was closed,
11:26
Speaker 1: and that really made a huge impression on me as
11:29
Speaker 1: a child, which translated into my activism as an adult,
11:33
Speaker 1: because you know, when we were making that song Boom
11:35
Speaker 1: and Michael Moore directed the video. If you remember, I
11:38
Speaker 1: still can't get the feeling out that dropping bombs is
11:42
Speaker 1: literally on the other side of being If hearing those
11:45
Speaker 1: bombs drops, it's a terrorizing feeling. Hearing bombs drop. They
11:49
Speaker 1: feel random and they terrorize the population. And if you've
11:53
Speaker 1: ever been in that situation of hearing bombs drop, you'd
11:56
Speaker 1: be very reluctant to order your own government or anyone
12:00
Speaker 1: to do that to anyone else. How quickly were you
12:04
Speaker 1: able to leave when that started? Your family? We were lucky.
12:08
Speaker 1: My dad was already planning on us migrating to the
12:11
Speaker 1: to the US and had done paperwork ahead of time,
12:14
Speaker 1: so we weren't We didn't know obviously before the war started,
12:17
Speaker 1: and so we were lucky. We were We got out
12:19
Speaker 1: pretty early. How long does that process take typically, I
12:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't know years, I would assume because he yeah, he
12:27
Speaker 1: had a brother in the you know, my uncle lived
12:30
Speaker 1: in New York and so I think he came visited him,
12:33
Speaker 1: started our paperwork in terms of you know, immigration, and
12:37
Speaker 1: then and then the war broke out. It became more difficult,
12:41
Speaker 1: and you know, it just my dad had to come
12:44
Speaker 1: six months after us. We had to come here with
12:46
Speaker 1: our mom and my dad followed us six months after.
12:50
Speaker 1: Was it only Ourmenians that were targeted? Oh no, No,
12:54
Speaker 1: I mean Ourmenians weren't specifically targeted. It was a whole
12:57
Speaker 1: civil war between you know, there were the Christian Phalunge movement,
13:02
Speaker 1: there were the Shiite movement, and there were the Sunnis.
13:06
Speaker 1: And it was just complete sectarian war, each supported by
13:09
Speaker 1: different you know, proxy nations from outside. And it was
13:15
Speaker 1: it was a mess and it's still a mess now
13:17
Speaker 1: after that huge bomb that went off last year. And
13:20
Speaker 1: I have a friend there, and the banking system is
13:23
Speaker 1: all frozen up. I mean, people with money can't even
13:26
Speaker 1: get you know, they can only get a thousand dollars
13:27
Speaker 1: a month out of their bank account, even if they
13:30
Speaker 1: have a lot of money. I mean, there's a lot
13:32
Speaker 1: of you know, COVID's bad and you know from what
13:35
Speaker 1: I hear, I've only been to Lebanon once since we
13:38
Speaker 1: left as a kid in twenty eleven, the year that
13:40
Speaker 1: I decided to shoot everything that I was you know, experiencing,
13:43
Speaker 1: and I took my parents back and they were older
13:46
Speaker 1: when they moved. You know, my brother and I were
13:48
Speaker 1: like four and seven, but they were in their thirties
13:51
Speaker 1: when they moved. So for them it was a very
13:54
Speaker 1: prolific kind of you know, experience going back. How don't
14:00
Speaker 1: I don't know whether the word is tight or cohesive?
14:03
Speaker 1: Was the Armenian experience in Los Angeles. There are a
14:06
Speaker 1: lot of Armenians in Los Angeles, probably the second largest
14:09
Speaker 1: diasporan community outside of Armenia. Russia would probably be the first,
14:13
Speaker 1: but it's quite close. Those are the two largest UM
14:17
Speaker 1: communities UM. And that's very interesting to you politically for me,
14:21
Speaker 1: because you've got you know, a lot of Armenians in
14:23
Speaker 1: the Russian sphere and then you've got a lot of
14:25
Speaker 1: Armenians here on polar opposite side of the political spectrum,
14:29
Speaker 1: you know, between those two nations. But the community, it
14:33
Speaker 1: got bigger over the years. When I came there, there
14:36
Speaker 1: were there were a number of Armenians. It wasn't as
14:38
Speaker 1: big as there is now, like Glendale or Hollywood, but
14:42
Speaker 1: it was nice, you know, having the you know, especially
14:46
Speaker 1: when you're just learning the language. It's nice having people
14:49
Speaker 1: from your culture around to kind of guide you and
14:53
Speaker 1: you know, especially as a kid. But at the same time,
14:56
Speaker 1: we were in mainstream you know, American culture and growing
14:59
Speaker 1: up in Los Angeles with all all that. I remember.
15:03
Speaker 1: I remember we lived in Hollywood in the mid seventies, right,
15:07
Speaker 1: and we used to walk to school in Hollywood, you
15:10
Speaker 1: colorful Hollywood pimps and hookers and all this stuff happening
15:13
Speaker 1: in My parents they didn't even, you know, wonder whether
15:17
Speaker 1: we were safe or not. They're like, yeah, grab your
15:18
Speaker 1: brother's hand and walked to school. I was like seven
15:21
Speaker 1: to eight. He was like fun. And now I'm thinking
15:24
Speaker 1: I would never let my kid walk up the street
15:27
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, you know or whatever. But like at the
15:29
Speaker 1: time it was it was more laxed, I guess, and
15:32
Speaker 1: maybe the violence wasn't as pronounced as it is now. Yeah,
15:37
Speaker 1: does California feel like home? Like if you think of
15:40
Speaker 1: home California. Look, majority of my friends and family are
15:45
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, so you know, I feel comfortable here,
15:49
Speaker 1: but it does feel more like an office than a
15:52
Speaker 1: home to me. I remember hearing you talk to Ferrell
15:55
Speaker 1: on the show. I'm a fan of the you Know
15:58
Speaker 1: Broken Record podcast and I've been listening to it for
16:00
Speaker 1: a while and that really hit home for me because
16:04
Speaker 1: I feel more at home in New Zealand, lived there
16:07
Speaker 1: part of the year, got residency years ago, have a
16:10
Speaker 1: nice place there I'm thankful for and but and here
16:14
Speaker 1: I feel like it's more I do have a lot
16:16
Speaker 1: of friends and family, but it feels more of a
16:18
Speaker 1: rat race it is. You know, would you say that
16:22
Speaker 1: politics were part of system of a down from the beginning?
16:27
Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean, you know, a band is
16:29
Speaker 1: you know a good band. I think that creates interesting
16:32
Speaker 1: music is always going to be a push and pull
16:34
Speaker 1: of different personalities and different agendas. I think when you
16:39
Speaker 1: have everyone on one page doing one thing, that's cool
16:42
Speaker 1: because that makes things simpler. But I think the music
16:47
Speaker 1: is probably is not as interesting. And our band is
16:50
Speaker 1: like that. We're we're for distinct personalities with distinct ways
16:53
Speaker 1: of doing things, and the political was more my thing
16:57
Speaker 1: because I was an activist before becoming an artist, and
17:00
Speaker 1: luckily I had these guys in my band that would
17:03
Speaker 1: kind of make me go, Okay, you're going too far.
17:06
Speaker 1: And that's good because, you know, unless the whole thing's
17:10
Speaker 1: got to be political like rage, which is awesome because
17:12
Speaker 1: that's what they agreed upon, and I think that's amazing.
17:15
Speaker 1: But System was never just political, as you well know,
17:18
Speaker 1: but it was always there, you know. And and it's
17:21
Speaker 1: not just me, to be honest, the specifically there and
17:25
Speaker 1: I think also has a lot of ideas more social
17:28
Speaker 1: than necessarily political, but also challenging the social fabric of
17:33
Speaker 1: society some of the hypocrisies that are, you know. So
17:36
Speaker 1: I think it was definitely in our DNA as a
17:39
Speaker 1: band from the beginning. We'll be right back with more
17:41
Speaker 1: from Surge Tonkian and Rick Rubin. After a quick break,
17:49
Speaker 1: we're back with more from Searge Tonkian. What was the
17:53
Speaker 1: scene that System was born into, Like, what was going
17:56
Speaker 1: on in LA at the time that you guys started
17:59
Speaker 1: when we started radio wasn't playing our kind of music? Definitely,
18:03
Speaker 1: we kind of We're in this warehouse in North Hollywood
18:06
Speaker 1: doing our own thing. Not knowing what was going on
18:08
Speaker 1: in the musical world outside of us. It was very
18:12
Speaker 1: incubated in that sense. And when we first started playing
18:16
Speaker 1: on the scene, like the Rocksy and Whiskey were primarily
18:19
Speaker 1: opening up for you know, anything from an industrial band
18:24
Speaker 1: to other heavy bands out of Los Angeles or Santa Barbara.
18:29
Speaker 1: We had this band Snot that we used to play
18:31
Speaker 1: around town with a lot, and you know, they were
18:36
Speaker 1: very much hardcore slash punk kind of band, and we
18:40
Speaker 1: gravitated because we have definitely a lot of punk ethos
18:43
Speaker 1: to our metally type of rock music and it kind
18:47
Speaker 1: of really fit. But we didn't know what scene we
18:50
Speaker 1: were a part of until later we were like, oh,
18:53
Speaker 1: there's Corn and Deft Tones, there's this new metal scene
18:55
Speaker 1: coming out of Los Angeles. And then lucky for us,
18:59
Speaker 1: as we started working together, radio switched formats like literally
19:03
Speaker 1: at that time. I always say, as hard as you
19:05
Speaker 1: work and as creative as you can try to be,
19:09
Speaker 1: there's definitely a matter of a little matter of luck
19:11
Speaker 1: as well to kind of land in the right place
19:14
Speaker 1: at the right time. Absolutely, and so that's what was
19:16
Speaker 1: going on. Ki Rock wasn't playing our type of music
19:18
Speaker 1: when we started they switched right when we were about
19:21
Speaker 1: to get that second record out. Not only was ki
19:25
Speaker 1: Rock not playing your sort of music after they switched,
19:30
Speaker 1: and after they were playing hard music. The program director said,
19:35
Speaker 1: when hearing System were down, this is a band that
19:38
Speaker 1: we will never play on our station ever. I remember
19:42
Speaker 1: that when the first album came out, Yeah, we will
19:45
Speaker 1: never play this band. And then one year later, System
19:49
Speaker 1: was the number one requested band on the station. Isn't
19:52
Speaker 1: that amazing? And look, I you know again, I'm not
19:55
Speaker 1: on your show to do wax poetic on you, but honestly,
20:00
Speaker 1: like you know, if it wasn't for your support in
20:02
Speaker 1: those first years of being out there was no radio
20:05
Speaker 1: support and touring opening for Slayer, one of your it
20:10
Speaker 1: was amazing, like just building that, you know, foundation for
20:14
Speaker 1: a band, going on tour, playing Europe, getting shit thrown
20:17
Speaker 1: at from this layer crowd and learning how to handle
20:19
Speaker 1: an audience and boot camp, you know, proper boot camp
20:22
Speaker 1: as as as artists on the road, and that really
20:25
Speaker 1: built us so that when the second record came and
20:28
Speaker 1: we did and radio did switch format, so we were
20:31
Speaker 1: ready and we actually had a base, So it wasn't
20:34
Speaker 1: some radio band you're introducing into you know, the community.
20:38
Speaker 1: You know, instead you had this plethora of fans wanting
20:42
Speaker 1: to hear the music, and that was that really kicked
20:44
Speaker 1: in properly. Yeah, and it really all happened naturally. We
20:47
Speaker 1: can't say any of that was actually planned. The only
20:50
Speaker 1: plan was to make something really good and stick to it,
20:54
Speaker 1: you know, like make something great. And whoever was interested
20:58
Speaker 1: in this great thing we made, we wanted them to
21:00
Speaker 1: find out about it. I don't think there was ever
21:02
Speaker 1: the idea of converting people who don't like it to
21:05
Speaker 1: like it. I remember, you know, our friend Tamarrella. The
21:08
Speaker 1: first time I played it for him, He's like, this
21:10
Speaker 1: is crazy person's music. This is music for crazy people.
21:14
Speaker 1: It's like it was just so on the fringe at
21:18
Speaker 1: the time. And still I feel like, still it holds
21:21
Speaker 1: up in how extreme and ridiculous it is, but we
21:26
Speaker 1: get more used to it because it's gotten popular. If
21:29
Speaker 1: you if you took away the popularity, it's it's really crazy.
21:35
Speaker 1: It is, it really is. Tom said he was with
21:38
Speaker 1: you that first day you saw us at the Viper room.
21:40
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Yeah, Tom was with us. I
21:42
Speaker 1: didn't remember that. And when I was talking to him,
21:45
Speaker 1: recently he was like, oh yeah, I was there, and
21:47
Speaker 1: I told Greg, this is nuts, this is crazy. But
21:51
Speaker 1: it was really fun. And I just as as I've
21:53
Speaker 1: told you before, I just remember laughing the whole show.
21:56
Speaker 1: You were laughing. I remember seeing you sitting on one
22:00
Speaker 1: of those booths, you know, up on top of the
22:02
Speaker 1: booth because there were so many heads in the audience
22:04
Speaker 1: and viper rooms a tiny place, and I just remember
22:07
Speaker 1: seeing you laughing and I and it's a positive encouragement that,
22:10
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, that's cool. It was super power.
22:13
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a positive It's a funny thing
22:17
Speaker 1: doing you know, kind of screaming somewhat questionable lyrics and
22:25
Speaker 1: how that can be interpreted as this positive like unity experience.
22:30
Speaker 1: And it was, you know, it really was. It felt
22:32
Speaker 1: like there was great solidarity in the audience. People were
22:35
Speaker 1: getting what they needed at that show, and the band
22:38
Speaker 1: was just great. That was fun. I remember talking to
22:41
Speaker 1: you after we went outside and we were so enthused
22:45
Speaker 1: that you were there, bro, like so excited. If you
22:47
Speaker 1: look at System of a Down it's an established band
22:50
Speaker 1: now and whatnot. But like you said, it was this
22:52
Speaker 1: crazy man's music just going off and these weird lyrics.
22:56
Speaker 1: I might have even had a distortion pedal feeding back
22:59
Speaker 1: on stage, which is like, who the fuck wants to
23:01
Speaker 1: sign that? Right? Like you know, and here you are
23:04
Speaker 1: checking us out And I remember, oh, guy Siri Ambino
23:08
Speaker 1: were friends. So guy at called saying, oh, Rick's coming,
23:11
Speaker 1: but we're running late or something, and we're like, we
23:13
Speaker 1: looked at we gotta we gotta delay the show, like
23:16
Speaker 1: we gotta Were you guys wearing paint? I don't remember
23:21
Speaker 1: were we I don't. I can't remember either. It's it's
23:23
Speaker 1: all a blur, but I mean i've seen you guys
23:25
Speaker 1: wear When did when did that start? The uh the paint?
23:29
Speaker 1: That's a good question. It was early on obviously, um
23:32
Speaker 1: and and it was very much Darren and Shovel were
23:35
Speaker 1: huge Kiss fans, and they were really into the whole
23:38
Speaker 1: makeup and craziness and colorfulness of that and uh, you know,
23:43
Speaker 1: so I that was their influence completely, And it was
23:47
Speaker 1: pretty early on. I don't know if it was from
23:49
Speaker 1: the first show or not, I mean first you know,
23:52
Speaker 1: uh run of shows on the strip or not. It
23:55
Speaker 1: felt more tribal than it did like Kiss, like what
23:58
Speaker 1: I saw mine tribal. Yeah, but I remember also like
24:04
Speaker 1: the what looked like Armenian folk dancing while playing these
24:09
Speaker 1: essentially heavy metal songs. Yeah, I mean that's what it is.
24:13
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's kind of the sound of System
24:15
Speaker 1: of a down that it brings our kind of filtered
24:18
Speaker 1: Armenian experience into heavy music in a way that doesn't
24:25
Speaker 1: copy either and just kind of becomes its own thing.
24:29
Speaker 1: That includes rhythms that includes weird solos and whatnot, and harmonies.
24:34
Speaker 1: I feel like the harmonies really feel like they're rooted
24:37
Speaker 1: in They don't sound like the harmonies that you hear
24:40
Speaker 1: in any other hard music. It does feel like it's
24:44
Speaker 1: rooted in an ancient folk. Yeah, a lot of thirds
24:47
Speaker 1: like Greek and Armenian Mediterranean harmonies. Yeah, Darren and I
24:51
Speaker 1: for sure. And in our voice really match. Our ranges
24:54
Speaker 1: and our voice really match in a very unique way.
24:57
Speaker 1: And that's that was from day one. You know, before System,
25:00
Speaker 1: we used to have a band called Soil, which was
25:02
Speaker 1: way more progressive and nutty, like just kind of how
25:06
Speaker 1: can it be way more progressive? What does that sound like?
25:10
Speaker 1: Almost unlistenable? Like no, not unlistenable, but it was it
25:15
Speaker 1: was just think of every System song but being more
25:19
Speaker 1: just crazier, like not crazier, but how do I say it?
25:22
Speaker 1: Less pop format? Right? In terms of the format, it
25:25
Speaker 1: was just go on and on. But it was a
25:27
Speaker 1: good learning experience. It was the first time I had
25:29
Speaker 1: ever sang in a band, and that was eight months.
25:31
Speaker 1: The whole band was just around. We had one show
25:34
Speaker 1: where Darren fell off the stage and he struck and
25:38
Speaker 1: he still does that, so, uh, you know, it was
25:43
Speaker 1: It was interesting, but that was good experience because I
25:45
Speaker 1: didn't know what I was doing as a vocalist. I mean,
25:47
Speaker 1: for me, it was always trying to make a sound
25:50
Speaker 1: with my voice. To me, singing was two different separate things,
25:55
Speaker 1: trying to get the words in there, and sometimes there
25:57
Speaker 1: were a lot of words, and I had to get
25:59
Speaker 1: him in there because as a as a as someone
26:01
Speaker 1: who wrote poetry, it was important to get the words
26:03
Speaker 1: in there. So I wasn't thinking does this sound right
26:06
Speaker 1: to someone singing. I was more like, I gotta get
26:08
Speaker 1: the words in there. It doesn't matter how fast I
26:11
Speaker 1: go with right and two to try to make sounds
26:16
Speaker 1: with a voice like it's a guitar or a synth
26:18
Speaker 1: or something like that. Very dada as kind of interpretation. Um,
26:22
Speaker 1: and also create relationships between things that don't have a
26:25
Speaker 1: pre existing relationship with each other, whether it's musical parts
26:29
Speaker 1: going from one part to another, or lyrical words that
26:32
Speaker 1: don't belong together. Terracotta pie, you know, banana terracotta pi?
26:36
Speaker 1: What the fuck is that? Right? Um, we still don't
26:39
Speaker 1: know what that is? But how did I talk about
26:42
Speaker 1: banana terracotta pie? You had to get the words in?
26:45
Speaker 1: Tell me how did you decide those are the words
26:47
Speaker 1: you had to get in? I don't remember. I remember
26:50
Speaker 1: writing the song on acoustic guitar and just kind of
26:53
Speaker 1: playing it fast and and just trying to you know,
26:57
Speaker 1: I was trying to sing whatever I was playing, and
27:00
Speaker 1: I was just like banana. But we turned out to
27:03
Speaker 1: be banana terracotta Da da da da da terracotta terracota pi.
27:07
Speaker 1: And I remember, dude, I remember our first reaction when
27:10
Speaker 1: we were working on that song. On the demos of
27:12
Speaker 1: that song, You're just like, what is that like? It
27:16
Speaker 1: was like, it wasn't a compliment. You were just like,
27:19
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is like. But once we
27:21
Speaker 1: were done with it, you're like, yeah, this is really good.
27:24
Speaker 1: We have to keep it. This is really and I
27:26
Speaker 1: found that to be interesting because it's challenging. Some of
27:30
Speaker 1: it is challenging. I think you know all of it.
27:35
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I learned so much about
27:37
Speaker 1: music working with you guys, because it was so far
27:40
Speaker 1: out and broke so many accepted rules, and the mission
27:46
Speaker 1: was okay, taking into account it's going to break these rules,
27:50
Speaker 1: how do we still achieve What's something that we could
27:54
Speaker 1: listen to and have this like I don't want to
27:57
Speaker 1: call it accessibility because it's not. It's by nature it's
28:01
Speaker 1: not understandable. So how can we present it where it's
28:05
Speaker 1: the most understandable while retaining that it never be understood.
28:12
Speaker 1: That was like there was like a quantum theory formula
28:15
Speaker 1: right there. It was that was our work. That was
28:18
Speaker 1: our work. But I also learned a lot from you.
28:21
Speaker 1: I still to this day brow when I do vocals,
28:24
Speaker 1: I hear you in my head going pronounce it better,
28:27
Speaker 1: pronounce it better. It's like, don't you those words? Pronounce
28:32
Speaker 1: it better? I mean there's times where you want to
28:34
Speaker 1: throw away words, you know. But yeah, a lot a
28:37
Speaker 1: lot in terms of how you hear things. And I
28:40
Speaker 1: love how you basically eat music and then interpret it
28:44
Speaker 1: from almost a fans' perspective as a producer, really get
28:48
Speaker 1: into it and love it, love it, love it, and
28:50
Speaker 1: then know what the best thing about it is kind
28:53
Speaker 1: of you narrow it down to that one strong foundation
28:59
Speaker 1: and then you want to hear that more or or
29:01
Speaker 1: you give ideas where that's more pronounced, and I think
29:04
Speaker 1: that's really special. Yeah, it's I definitely into the idea
29:07
Speaker 1: of like putting a focus on the thing that speaks
29:12
Speaker 1: the most, and because it can, it can get lost.
29:15
Speaker 1: So the job is to like think about where the
29:18
Speaker 1: spotlight is shining while all these things are going on
29:22
Speaker 1: at the same time. How do we keep this this
29:24
Speaker 1: one aspect and focus when we need to, and then
29:27
Speaker 1: how to and when to switch the focus to this
29:30
Speaker 1: other thing to focus on and giving everything its turn.
29:35
Speaker 1: Talk about the the the vocal phrasing in the verses
29:38
Speaker 1: of Chop Suey, wake up Greg, you know, just kind
29:43
Speaker 1: of going with that neurotic kind of you know, attacky
29:48
Speaker 1: music and stop the it's the pauses that make it interesting,
29:51
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's hard to do live because I
29:54
Speaker 1: literally have to listen to John so I could be
29:57
Speaker 1: syncopated with him, and he looks at my body motion,
30:00
Speaker 1: so I try to go left and right so he
30:03
Speaker 1: knows like it's kind of like we have to be
30:05
Speaker 1: on the same page. I don't know. I don't know
30:07
Speaker 1: how that came about. It's it's probably my naivete going
30:11
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. He or so I'm
30:12
Speaker 1: gonna do exactly what the guitars are doing. But how
30:15
Speaker 1: did you and I remember us talking about it and
30:18
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it at the time, about you doing
30:21
Speaker 1: like the responses also, yeah, the whispered responses, yes, which
30:30
Speaker 1: sounds so creepy. Yeah, I don't know. I you know, again,
30:34
Speaker 1: I don't remember. It's you know, it's been quite a
30:36
Speaker 1: number of years, a couple of decades, right, but hey,
30:38
Speaker 1: congratulations because toxicity or I want to say, was it Chopsuy?
30:43
Speaker 1: I think Chopsuy was voted by Metal Hammer best Metal
30:46
Speaker 1: song of the twentieth century. Wow. Yeah that's good, big accolade.
30:51
Speaker 1: Wow Yeah, yeah, incredible. I never studied singing. I had
30:54
Speaker 1: no idea what I was doing. So for me, it
30:56
Speaker 1: was a sound and if the guitars can do it,
30:59
Speaker 1: then my voice can do it, you know. So I
31:01
Speaker 1: was trying to match that, which is irregular. I mean,
31:04
Speaker 1: someone who's learned how to sing is never gonna do
31:07
Speaker 1: that knowing they can't properly repeat it every day, every night,
31:10
Speaker 1: which is a pain in the butt, right. But I
31:13
Speaker 1: think that's what's beautiful about art and about exploration, about
31:18
Speaker 1: not being a you know, walking into something and just
31:22
Speaker 1: being creative, not knowing, not having previous experiences of it,
31:27
Speaker 1: because I think that exploratory nature can really lead to
31:31
Speaker 1: something new. It's the reason I started painting a number
31:34
Speaker 1: of years ago, because again I didn't know what I
31:36
Speaker 1: was doing. I got into it, and I feel that
31:39
Speaker 1: same kind of feeling of lost and losing time and
31:43
Speaker 1: just doing something without knowing what the results are going
31:46
Speaker 1: to be, and that kind of what I felt when
31:49
Speaker 1: I first started doing music. Amazing. I want to talk
31:53
Speaker 1: a little more about lyrics, just because it's such a
31:56
Speaker 1: interesting part of what you do. I love the way
31:59
Speaker 1: you sing, but the lyrics of this whole other thing,
32:02
Speaker 1: it's like, it's radical. Do you remember the drama over
32:09
Speaker 1: the tapeworm song? Yes? How can I? How can I
32:17
Speaker 1: forget that? Okay? So originally the song the chorus was
32:22
Speaker 1: pulled a tapeworm out of my ass right as I recall, yes,
32:26
Speaker 1: Darren in Shabo didn't like my ass right. They were like, no, no, no,
32:31
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound cool, that sounds bad, that sounds vulnerable
32:35
Speaker 1: or whatever it was, you know, whatever word you want
32:38
Speaker 1: to use as an adjective. And I'm like, you know,
32:42
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is philosophical, like, you know,
32:44
Speaker 1: take this negativity out of me or whatever at the
32:47
Speaker 1: time I was trying to portray, and they're like, no, no, no, no,
32:51
Speaker 1: that's not cool. We don't want to be in a
32:53
Speaker 1: band where it's your you know, Like it seemed like
32:56
Speaker 1: the band could have broke up over the lyric, like
33:00
Speaker 1: it was so extreme. Yeah, but it talked. It speaks
33:04
Speaker 1: to the passion in the band, like there's real passion.
33:09
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I mean, the fact that a lyric, an insignificant,
33:14
Speaker 1: one word and arguably comical line totally is enough to
33:22
Speaker 1: potentially break up a band or or discard a great song.
33:26
Speaker 1: There was another possibility. It's like, well that song just
33:29
Speaker 1: goes away and all we have to do is change
33:31
Speaker 1: it to your out of your ass, it might became
33:35
Speaker 1: your And then in the middle part where I'm singing
33:38
Speaker 1: nicely pull the taproom out of me. They were okay
33:40
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, And it's really beautiful. When you get
33:43
Speaker 1: to that, it's like you're you're part of the you
33:46
Speaker 1: become part of the community. It's like it goes from
33:49
Speaker 1: this ass taproom community. Yeah, it's like like you you, you, you, you,
33:56
Speaker 1: and then me. Well, I'm curious from your point of view,
34:00
Speaker 1: since you were there and you saw that, like, what
34:04
Speaker 1: was your reaction? You probably thought these guys are fucking
34:07
Speaker 1: nuts there. It's like number one is one word, and
34:10
Speaker 1: what the why are they arguing over this? It wasn't
34:13
Speaker 1: obvious that it was one word. That was like when
34:16
Speaker 1: when that got decoded, when we realized it wasn't pull
34:21
Speaker 1: the tapeworm ass problem. When we realized it was pulled
34:24
Speaker 1: the tapeworm out of my ass problem, and that when
34:29
Speaker 1: you said my ass, it represented everybody in the band's ass,
34:34
Speaker 1: and everybody wasn't comfortable with that. And now you know
34:38
Speaker 1: you could essentially be saying pull the tapeworm out of
34:41
Speaker 1: your ass to the rest of the band, right, and
34:44
Speaker 1: they're okay with it. It's fascinating. I don't think you've
34:50
Speaker 1: done any Broken Record podcasts and use the word ass
34:54
Speaker 1: in so many minutes at all. We broke a record today.
34:59
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's funny. I mean with all of
35:03
Speaker 1: the like you know, prison song with like all that
35:06
Speaker 1: stuff that's written and very kind of essay form. And
35:10
Speaker 1: we didn't have any arguments about that, but that one
35:13
Speaker 1: tape where you know it's and it's funny. The other
35:16
Speaker 1: thing about it is that it's clearly funny. We were
35:19
Speaker 1: all pretty stout and you are laughing the whole time.
35:21
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was funny. But yes, it does have
35:24
Speaker 1: like a bigger meaning I understand, but they weren't upset
35:27
Speaker 1: with the bigger meaning. It was purely the language and
35:29
Speaker 1: it's and it was a very funny line. It's kind
35:33
Speaker 1: of funny because I think it's the metal attitude versus
35:36
Speaker 1: the non metal attitude as well. So for me, I
35:39
Speaker 1: like showing vulnerability in our music and whatever I do.
35:43
Speaker 1: I don't mind showing it because I think as an artist,
35:46
Speaker 1: you're vulnerable either way, you either show it or you don't. Yeah,
35:49
Speaker 1: you know, but the metal attitude, there is no way, dude, like,
35:53
Speaker 1: you know, no way we're metal, right, you know, you
35:55
Speaker 1: can't show a vulnerability, you know. That kind of a thing.
35:58
Speaker 1: I think That's what it was. More than anything else.
36:00
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a way in the future to
36:03
Speaker 1: lean into exactly what you're saying and the fact that
36:07
Speaker 1: there's that difference. And when I think of the example
36:09
Speaker 1: you talk about prison song and the way the chorus works,
36:14
Speaker 1: pushing little children with their fully automatics semi automatic, that's
36:19
Speaker 1: that's not the prison song. The prison song is they
36:21
Speaker 1: tried to build a prison. Confused pushing little child. I
36:26
Speaker 1: never know titles ever, I forget myself. What are the lines?
36:30
Speaker 1: Pushing little children with their fully automatics. They like to
36:34
Speaker 1: push the week around? Right, So you're singing that from
36:38
Speaker 1: this place of compassion or your compassion makes you angry.
36:43
Speaker 1: And Darren's character joins in for pushed a week around
36:50
Speaker 1: and he so he's doing the authoritarian side of the story.
36:58
Speaker 1: And like you said earlier, the thing that makes a
37:02
Speaker 1: band great is those difference. It's not it's not everybody
37:06
Speaker 1: unified on the same message. It's those different messages and
37:09
Speaker 1: how they bump up against each other to make something
37:12
Speaker 1: really interesting. I'd never thought of it this way before
37:15
Speaker 1: until we were having this conversation, But it's an interesting dichotomy.
37:20
Speaker 1: The reason you said prison song. Is that same thing
37:22
Speaker 1: exists in there because Darren comes in with what was it,
37:26
Speaker 1: I buy my crack, I smack my bitch right here
37:28
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, which is playing into the negativity, yes, where
37:32
Speaker 1: the lyrics are talking about the injustice of the you know,
37:36
Speaker 1: three strike law, the prison system, the racist policies that endure,
37:40
Speaker 1: and he comes in as the guy like, yes he
37:43
Speaker 1: doesn't the foil, Yeah, blast off, you know, it's party time.
37:48
Speaker 1: We don't live in a fascist nation whatever. Like it's
37:51
Speaker 1: it's a character kind of portrayal back and forth, which
37:55
Speaker 1: is interesting. I never even thought of it this way
37:57
Speaker 1: until you just brought it up right now. Yeah, same,
37:59
Speaker 1: The same thing existed in Public Enemy, where Chuck d
38:02
Speaker 1: was always really serious and Flavor. Flavor was the foil,
38:06
Speaker 1: and sometimes he was the comic foil. But sometimes it
38:08
Speaker 1: was like a different point of view, like calm down, Chuck,
38:14
Speaker 1: you know, like sometime it was it was just like
38:16
Speaker 1: another perspective. Yeah, and together it was It's like, I
38:22
Speaker 1: don't know that Public Enemy would have done what it
38:25
Speaker 1: did without the foil. It made it less finger shaking,
38:32
Speaker 1: you know, totally, and people people don't like having finger
38:35
Speaker 1: shakeed at them nobody, even if even if they like
38:38
Speaker 1: what you're saying, they don't like that. No, you know,
38:41
Speaker 1: I think you either have to make them dance, you
38:44
Speaker 1: have to make them laugh. I've realized this doing this
38:46
Speaker 1: for a few decades or so, is you have to
38:50
Speaker 1: entertain while you get that message out, because otherwise, you know,
38:54
Speaker 1: you're just giving a speech and that's not very exciting
38:57
Speaker 1: and it's not going to get very far. I say
39:00
Speaker 1: it in the movie. It's like in the twenty fifteen
39:03
Speaker 1: when we played Armenia for the first time, those words
39:05
Speaker 1: came out of me where I said what I needed
39:07
Speaker 1: to say politically on stage age and then I said,
39:10
Speaker 1: we're here to tell you the truth and rock you
39:12
Speaker 1: at the same time. And I think that's the magic. Yeah,
39:14
Speaker 1: it's interesting also how you could lyrically have deadly serious
39:19
Speaker 1: lyrics right next to really zany wacky lyrics and make
39:24
Speaker 1: it work. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it's the other esque Verry
39:28
Speaker 1: Zappo esque, and you know it is cool again. I
39:32
Speaker 1: like that kind of I think Darren does too. I
39:34
Speaker 1: think that's where we get along creatively, is finding relationships
39:38
Speaker 1: between things that don't have a common relationship, Like wow,
39:43
Speaker 1: if we can make these two things work together. We've
39:46
Speaker 1: never heard that before. That's really interesting experiment and take
39:49
Speaker 1: it to the next level. I'm gonna take a quick break,
39:52
Speaker 1: but we're back with more from Searge Donkian. We're back
39:59
Speaker 1: with the rest of Rick's conversation with Searge Tonkian. Let's
40:03
Speaker 1: talk about the three years between the first album and Toxicity.
40:08
Speaker 1: What that ride was like, touring, touring, touring. I remember
40:12
Speaker 1: the only radio we even had on the first record
40:14
Speaker 1: was Jed the Fish played Sugar on his specialty show
40:19
Speaker 1: and I got to hear it in the car and
40:20
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, dream come true. I heard our
40:23
Speaker 1: song on the radio kind of thing. But there was
40:25
Speaker 1: not a lot of radio on the first record, and
40:29
Speaker 1: it was a lot of touring. We were on tour
40:31
Speaker 1: with Slayer in Europe and then the US, and then
40:35
Speaker 1: we did a bunch of os Fests shows and a
40:38
Speaker 1: bunch of other shows, small, you know shows, and just
40:42
Speaker 1: getting out there for people to really experience our music,
40:45
Speaker 1: opening for bands and kind of doing the dou That's
40:48
Speaker 1: that's the foundation, and I remember those those days. They
40:53
Speaker 1: were not easy because you know, we're traveling in you
40:55
Speaker 1: know ur vs that broke down that in the middle
40:58
Speaker 1: of the night, we had to climb fences and find
41:00
Speaker 1: a phone. There were no cell phones at the time,
41:03
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of tough times, but we
41:05
Speaker 1: remember them fondly because that was the beginning of this
41:08
Speaker 1: whole incredible experience. I remember at one point, you know,
41:12
Speaker 1: we were we were in an RV and John would
41:14
Speaker 1: drive a lot because he was responsible. You didn't want
41:18
Speaker 1: Darren driving. Shaba would drive. He was he was good. Um,
41:22
Speaker 1: but I remember Darren and I were sleeping on this
41:25
Speaker 1: RV bed and I guess we were about to hit
41:29
Speaker 1: something and John must have slammed on the brakes and
41:31
Speaker 1: I remember Darren grabbing me. I was flying in the air,
41:34
Speaker 1: he just grabbing me. You know, there's just these incredible
41:38
Speaker 1: experienced experiences that you can't forget. Funny ones, crazy ones
41:42
Speaker 1: talk about Slayer's audience a little bit. What was Slayer's audience, Like,
41:46
Speaker 1: oh my god, so I know that Alison Chains is
41:52
Speaker 1: opened for Slayer. All these bands have opened for Slayer,
41:55
Speaker 1: and their their audience just hate everyone but Slayer. Right, everyone,
41:59
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether you're rock or And that was
42:02
Speaker 1: the phase where we were like makeup. Darren had his
42:06
Speaker 1: little like glam toys on him, and it was it
42:10
Speaker 1: was the worst thing you could do to Slayer fans.
42:12
Speaker 1: It was like it was just like you were getting
42:14
Speaker 1: ready for them to kill you. I remember at one
42:16
Speaker 1: point we started we started a show with Sweepee, which
42:21
Speaker 1: is a heavy song but funny and funky. We got
42:25
Speaker 1: booed and I remember Darren going, oh, you liked that song,
42:29
Speaker 1: We're gonna play it again, and we played it again.
42:32
Speaker 1: It was like we were learning how to take the
42:35
Speaker 1: attitude and and you know, not to get upset and
42:38
Speaker 1: have fun with it. I remember playing in Poland and
42:42
Speaker 1: we were being killed by these coins. They were throwing
42:44
Speaker 1: coins at us as we were performing because because there
42:49
Speaker 1: was another band, the Polish death metal band that played
42:53
Speaker 1: after us, and we were the direct support. Who are
42:56
Speaker 1: these fucking clowns to, you know, get a better position
42:59
Speaker 1: and you know, before Slayer than And of course we
43:01
Speaker 1: were on tour with Slayer the whole time, and so
43:04
Speaker 1: we were getting pelted and at one point, and this
43:07
Speaker 1: is like must have been ninety nine, so it wasn't
43:11
Speaker 1: far back that Poland was part of the Soviet Union
43:13
Speaker 1: and they were like Swasti because there was like shit
43:16
Speaker 1: going on right, like crazy shit, like they were threatening
43:18
Speaker 1: us and all this stuff, pelting us. And at one
43:21
Speaker 1: point I got so angry I told the lighting guy
43:23
Speaker 1: to turn the lights on the audience. I saw the
43:26
Speaker 1: guy that pelted me last, and I just started cussing
43:29
Speaker 1: at him and yelling at him. With the lights on
43:31
Speaker 1: the audience, Rick, you could have heard a pin drop.
43:35
Speaker 1: Everyone went silent. It's the scariest thing I've ever seen
43:39
Speaker 1: on tour because I exercised authority. Wow, and authority was
43:45
Speaker 1: something that they had just gotten out of. And when
43:48
Speaker 1: I exercised that authority from stage, they froze and it's
43:52
Speaker 1: scared the shit at him. Me and I go okay,
43:54
Speaker 1: I think we're done, guys, and we walked out just
43:57
Speaker 1: feeling really weird. Just just interesting stuff that you learn
44:01
Speaker 1: playing in different countries with different cultures. You know, I've
44:05
Speaker 1: toured with different orchestras around the world. For example, no
44:07
Speaker 1: orchestra plays the same. Every orchestra plays based on their
44:11
Speaker 1: cultural idioms, based on how they see Italians, for example,
44:16
Speaker 1: best soloists in the world together. It's just the culture.
44:21
Speaker 1: It's just the culture. Russians play like broom when when
44:24
Speaker 1: the conductor does this, it's down like all at the
44:28
Speaker 1: same time. It's just it's so interesting seeing cultures play
44:32
Speaker 1: the same piece of music completely differently. How different are
44:36
Speaker 1: the audiences. The audiences are quite diverse, you know, both
44:40
Speaker 1: for System and my own solo stuff. That the orchestral
44:43
Speaker 1: shows are interesting because you'll see older people and you'll
44:46
Speaker 1: see you know, people in a system of down t
44:48
Speaker 1: shirt in their twenties and wanting to rock. You know,
44:51
Speaker 1: it's like this weird combination. And I think with System
44:55
Speaker 1: there's a little more male the demographic i'd say, than female.
44:59
Speaker 1: But um, you know, it's it's quite interesting. But but
45:03
Speaker 1: the age is quite what you see kids and dad's
45:06
Speaker 1: going together to concerts. I love seeing that. I really
45:09
Speaker 1: really love saying that. Okay, so today's the first day.
45:12
Speaker 1: I'm driving my son to our relative's house and I decided,
45:17
Speaker 1: I'm like, have you listened to you know, death metal?
45:20
Speaker 1: And he's like, what's that? And I'm like, oh good.
45:23
Speaker 1: So I played him Slayer for the first time today.
45:26
Speaker 1: I played him the band death and he really loved it.
45:30
Speaker 1: Was just you know, and I'm like, it's just so
45:35
Speaker 1: so interesting, you know, the energy. Yeah, it's just an energy. Yeah,
45:40
Speaker 1: I can feel it. And I asked, what do you
45:42
Speaker 1: like about this? Do you like the drums? Do you
45:43
Speaker 1: like the guitars? Like you said, I like both. You know,
45:47
Speaker 1: I play him Tom Waite's I play him everything obviously,
45:49
Speaker 1: because you know, it's like food. If they learn from
45:52
Speaker 1: a young age to eat everything, they won't want mac
45:54
Speaker 1: and cheese for the rest of their life. It's interesting
45:56
Speaker 1: before you talked about how the luck and the improbability
46:01
Speaker 1: of things that either work for you or against you.
46:04
Speaker 1: What are the odds that Toxicity came out week of
46:09
Speaker 1: September eleventh. How is that possible? And to have the
46:14
Speaker 1: number one album in the country when that happened, It's
46:18
Speaker 1: just surreal. It's incredibly surreal, you know, with a song
46:22
Speaker 1: whose chorus was trust in myself righteous suicide. I cry
46:26
Speaker 1: when Angels deserve to die. You know, it's like completely surreal.
46:31
Speaker 1: When people talk about the record, I mean, I remember
46:34
Speaker 1: our recording sessions and stuff, but the majority of my
46:37
Speaker 1: memories have to do with the stress of the release
46:41
Speaker 1: because right before we released it, we held a First
46:44
Speaker 1: of all, we held a free show in Hollywood right
46:48
Speaker 1: behind the Roosevelt Hotel. You remember, we were expecting three
46:51
Speaker 1: to four thousand people, and fifteen twenty thousand people showed
46:54
Speaker 1: up and it became you know, fire Marshall came down
46:58
Speaker 1: and said you can't play the show. They closed the show.
47:00
Speaker 1: Police threatened to arrest us if we got on stage
47:03
Speaker 1: to play a song because there were no specific entries,
47:07
Speaker 1: the barriers were incorrect or whatever, and it was so tenuous.
47:11
Speaker 1: It was so stressful. And I don't know if you
47:14
Speaker 1: know this, but I gathered the guys that day and
47:16
Speaker 1: I'm like, let's get arrested, will be perfect, Let's go
47:20
Speaker 1: for it. And then and then our lawyer goes overheard
47:23
Speaker 1: and said everyone here is going to sue you if
47:26
Speaker 1: you go up there and the fire marshal is closed it,
47:29
Speaker 1: whether they arrest you or not, Like don't you know,
47:31
Speaker 1: He's like don't. And it was just crazy. And then
47:35
Speaker 1: there was the riot, you know, like there was an
47:38
Speaker 1: LA riot before the release of Toxicity because the show
47:41
Speaker 1: that we were supposed to play. We even said, like,
47:44
Speaker 1: let us go play one song and just announced, well,
47:47
Speaker 1: redo the show because obviously there's too many people. This
47:50
Speaker 1: is not you know, they wouldn't let us. I mean,
47:52
Speaker 1: it was so myopic in retrospect. It was of LAPD
47:56
Speaker 1: and not allowing us to at least calm down the crowd.
48:00
Speaker 1: They're canceling the show made everybody go crazy. They made
48:02
Speaker 1: everyone go crazy. They attacked our crew and equipment went everywhere,
48:06
Speaker 1: and police came in with horses and it's just a mess.
48:10
Speaker 1: And then watching all of that on the news and feeling,
48:13
Speaker 1: you know, even though we did all we could, but
48:15
Speaker 1: those were our fans, those are people that wanted to
48:17
Speaker 1: hear our music. It was wrong, you know that that
48:20
Speaker 1: happened anyway, So toxicitys really started with that. Then, of
48:24
Speaker 1: course September eleven. On September twelve, I posted an essay
48:29
Speaker 1: called Understanding Oil, which was my way of understanding how
48:34
Speaker 1: something like this couldn't happen, and it spoke about fifty
48:37
Speaker 1: years of US foreign policy the need for multilateralism in
48:41
Speaker 1: terms of how we deal with this issue, not unilateralism
48:45
Speaker 1: like it was with going after Iraq, a country that,
48:49
Speaker 1: for example, nothing to do with ninety eleven, but at
48:51
Speaker 1: the time they were making these ties and a lot
48:54
Speaker 1: of people felt that it was wrong, and we had
48:56
Speaker 1: the protests before the Iraq War, the Michael Moore video.
48:59
Speaker 1: All I remember is this incredible stress? Oh, we were
49:04
Speaker 1: on I had to defend myselves on the Howard Stern Show.
49:08
Speaker 1: Remember that. I remember I remember calling Howard before because
49:12
Speaker 1: Howard was ready to really attack. Yeah, and I called
49:18
Speaker 1: them and I said, these are good guys, and keep
49:23
Speaker 1: in mind you're getting one side of a story. Their
49:27
Speaker 1: intentions are good, they mean good. You know. It was
49:31
Speaker 1: really like a positive call. And he's like, okay, I'm
49:34
Speaker 1: you know, I'll listen to what he says. But it
49:36
Speaker 1: was it really could have it could have gone the
49:38
Speaker 1: other way, you know, like I really could have. Oh.
49:41
Speaker 1: We had calls, you know, coming in and death threats
49:43
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff with the band. I remember,
49:46
Speaker 1: and mind you were on tour the week after September
49:49
Speaker 1: eleven with all those additional you know, red and and
49:53
Speaker 1: and and orange like danger there might be more terrorist attacks,
49:57
Speaker 1: and we're in front of fifteen twenty thousand people a night.
49:59
Speaker 1: You know. Scary, man, It was really really scary and stressful.
50:04
Speaker 1: I remember the band got me in a room and
50:07
Speaker 1: they're like, what are you doing? Are you trying to
50:09
Speaker 1: get us killed? I'm like, but it's the truth, and
50:13
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, so what you know, you know, like
50:17
Speaker 1: you're a smart guy. What are you doing? You know?
50:20
Speaker 1: And I always say I was naive to think that
50:24
Speaker 1: the truth being the truth was the most important thing.
50:28
Speaker 1: And I'm still that naive. In other words, I haven't changed,
50:31
Speaker 1: It's just who I am. Have any of your ideas
50:36
Speaker 1: or beliefs or thoughts changed over the course of your life,
50:40
Speaker 1: like something that you really believed firmly in and that
50:43
Speaker 1: now you might think differently or opposite. I don't know
50:46
Speaker 1: if I think of anything that's completely opposite, but I
50:50
Speaker 1: definitely have changed, you know, over time, what's evolved? What's
50:55
Speaker 1: think of something that's really evolved. Let's say, so my worldview,
50:59
Speaker 1: I think I came from a very small community, or
51:02
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean in population of the planet is
51:04
Speaker 1: six million people, seven million people, right, And so I
51:08
Speaker 1: came from the small kind of idea and community and
51:12
Speaker 1: caring for that community. And then seeing over time over
51:16
Speaker 1: these last twenty number whatever years traveling the world, would
51:21
Speaker 1: you know, due to touring and and seeing that we're
51:25
Speaker 1: all living that same experience, right that injustice is everywhere.
51:29
Speaker 1: Corruption is everywhere, whether it's hidden between an oligarchic regime
51:36
Speaker 1: or with k Street lobbying firms in Washington, DC, you know,
51:40
Speaker 1: which is legalized corruption. It's everywhere. So seeing some of
51:44
Speaker 1: the same common denominators around the world and at the
51:48
Speaker 1: same time people's good will around the world. That I
51:53
Speaker 1: think that's what's changed the most about me, is developing
51:57
Speaker 1: from an ethnocentric artist, activist to a universal kind of
52:02
Speaker 1: Probably I've never even thought about this, but I guess
52:04
Speaker 1: that would be it. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I tend
52:07
Speaker 1: to think of people being good and systems being bad.
52:13
Speaker 1: That's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah, did you
52:17
Speaker 1: talked about growing up in this small community. Did all
52:20
Speaker 1: of the band members have a similar experience growing up?
52:22
Speaker 1: Would you say similar? I'm sure it's quite a little different,
52:27
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean growing up. We all grew up
52:29
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. John's originally from Toronto, born in Lebanon.
52:33
Speaker 1: Chabo was the only one of us that were born
52:35
Speaker 1: in Armenia, but he was really young. I think he
52:37
Speaker 1: was three when his migrated to the US. So we
52:41
Speaker 1: all grew up in the community. We went to different schools,
52:43
Speaker 1: but at one point three out of four of us
52:45
Speaker 1: went to the same Armenian private school that's in the film,
52:49
Speaker 1: and they were younger than Michevo and Darren, so they
52:53
Speaker 1: remember me. I don't remember them from that time, but
52:55
Speaker 1: obviously later. So there are these interesting pre system of
53:01
Speaker 1: a down experiences that we can all relate to, like
53:03
Speaker 1: teachers that three out of four of us knew and
53:07
Speaker 1: would laugh at just you know, mentioning, like these interesting
53:10
Speaker 1: common experiences. I think being in the community definitely somehow
53:14
Speaker 1: brought us together as artists who had different musical experiences,
53:19
Speaker 1: but a very common community experience. It's interesting also that
53:24
Speaker 1: living in Los Angeles and making music, you could conceivably
53:28
Speaker 1: play with anyone, and you all chose to do it
53:32
Speaker 1: within this community. It's just interesting. It's interesting. It feels
53:38
Speaker 1: like it limited your choices in terms of who to
53:42
Speaker 1: play with. Right Well, it's funny. The way it happened
53:45
Speaker 1: is I was playing keyboards in this one band that
53:48
Speaker 1: we did, like kind of alternative music in our Meenian
53:50
Speaker 1: and English, and we were rehearsing in Burbank or North
53:53
Speaker 1: Hollywood somewhere, and I was just their keys guy. And
53:57
Speaker 1: there was another band that was sharing the studio with us,
54:00
Speaker 1: and it was a number of our meaning guys and
54:02
Speaker 1: non our meaning guys as well. Actually was a combination,
54:05
Speaker 1: and they just got Darren to come in as their guitarist,
54:09
Speaker 1: like they needed a good guitar, so they got there,
54:11
Speaker 1: and he was young, it was like sixteen or seventeen,
54:14
Speaker 1: so we started playing with them, and him and I
54:16
Speaker 1: I remember, okay, so remember Waco, Texas when David Koresh
54:21
Speaker 1: had the whole thing right? How can we forget that right?
54:24
Speaker 1: So when that happened, I helped write a song that
54:29
Speaker 1: Darren contributed to called Waco Jesus. And it's the first
54:32
Speaker 1: time I ever sang on a recording. So here I
54:35
Speaker 1: am from this band, but I wrote the song for
54:37
Speaker 1: our singer and that band to sing and he wasn't around,
54:40
Speaker 1: so I ended up singing it myself and Darren contributed
54:44
Speaker 1: as well and played on it. That's when him and
54:46
Speaker 1: I really met and started kind of playing around with ideas,
54:50
Speaker 1: musical ideas, and we realized a lot of the guys
54:52
Speaker 1: were jamming with they were like, you know, into girls
54:55
Speaker 1: and drinking and having fun, and him and I were
54:58
Speaker 1: really like into more philosophical ideas of music and understanding things,
55:04
Speaker 1: and he was serious. We were both somehow we connected
55:08
Speaker 1: as lifers as they say, right, Yeah, And I remember
55:11
Speaker 1: Darren playing acoustic guitar and us singing our first harmony,
55:14
Speaker 1: and like you said, something was special about that. And
55:17
Speaker 1: I don't even know if that song was ever became
55:19
Speaker 1: a song or whatever. It was just something and that's
55:22
Speaker 1: how that's how we started. And then Shovel was a
55:24
Speaker 1: friend of Darren's, and Shovel came in to manage us,
55:28
Speaker 1: you know, and he was a guitarist, not a bassist,
55:31
Speaker 1: but he's you know, Darren was like, this guy really
55:34
Speaker 1: understands my musical mind, and I think he should work
55:37
Speaker 1: with us kind of thing. And so Shovel became our bassist.
55:40
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was like it was all natural. Although
55:43
Speaker 1: we're all from the same community, but there was something
55:47
Speaker 1: very organic that led each other to each other. And
55:50
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, when we played Armenia for the first time, Man,
55:54
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I remember right before the show, when
55:57
Speaker 1: we did our little band huddle, I was really calm.
56:01
Speaker 1: It felt like the band was created to play that
56:03
Speaker 1: one show, and everything we had experienced in the middle
56:06
Speaker 1: was designed so that we could be there. That it
56:09
Speaker 1: felt like this culmination of history coming bringing us to
56:15
Speaker 1: that point. It felt so special, incredible. And it's not
56:18
Speaker 1: just your history or the band history, but it's the culture.
56:22
Speaker 1: It's the history of that culture coming together. Yeah, and
56:26
Speaker 1: and coming back from the other side of the world
56:31
Speaker 1: to fly a flag of art to bring people together.
56:34
Speaker 1: I feel start crying talking about it. It's just unbelievable.
56:41
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Yeah, man, it was unbelievable and and it
56:45
Speaker 1: felt incredible. Honestly, I am really really grateful for you
56:51
Speaker 1: being on this road with us, this journey. It's meant
56:54
Speaker 1: the world to me. And and you know, learning from
56:57
Speaker 1: you and being your friend, and so I'm I'm I'm
57:01
Speaker 1: extremely grateful for where where we're at. It is my
57:04
Speaker 1: honor to be in service to you, sir. Thank you.
57:08
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you and I'm gonna go West. I'm
57:10
Speaker 1: gonna go. Great seeing you man, Great to see you.
57:20
Speaker 1: Thanks to Surge, Tonky and for talking music and activism
57:23
Speaker 1: with Rick. To hear a playlist of our favorite songs
57:26
Speaker 1: from Surge and System of a Down, head to Broken
57:28
Speaker 1: record podcast dot com, where you can also find a
57:31
Speaker 1: playlist Surge put together as some of his favorite tunes.
57:34
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube
57:37
Speaker 1: dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you can find
57:40
Speaker 1: extended cuts of new and old episodes. You can follow
57:44
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Records produced help
57:47
Speaker 1: from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and
57:52
Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive
57:56
Speaker 1: producer is me a Little. Broken Record is a production
57:59
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries, and if you liked the show, please
58:02
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast
58:04
Speaker 1: app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,
58:08
Speaker 1: Pace four