Latest / Do Small Business Like a Big Boss Podcast / How Joy L. King Built Two Businesses on Intuition + Referrals (While in a Chief Role)

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How Joy L. King Built Two Businesses on Intuition + Referrals (While in a Chief Role) · Do Small Business Like a Big Boss Podcast

• Aisha Massengill: You gotta focus on building repeatable value first, right? Like, what is it, you know, if you think about growth in stages, you can't scale everything at once, right? Like, what's the repeatable value? What is it that you can have 100 products, but there's gotta be that one thing that you deliver really well, really clearly, you know, clear processes and outcomes. That's that foundational piece, and that's really what you're gonna, when things get hard, And it's time to like scale back, right? Sometimes you got to go back to go forward. You got to know what that repeatable value is. And it's not always five things. Sometimes it's one. And so getting very clear about if I do nothing else, I do this is I think important for business owners to hone in on for themselves. Welcome to Do Small Business Like a Big Boss, where we explore the real stories, hard-earned lessons, and game-changing strategies of entrepreneurs who've moved beyond the side hustle and built businesses that scale with confidence. This show is proudly sponsored by Project Icon. I'm your host, Aisha Jorge Massengill, your Small Business Legal Guide. Let's dive in. Hey, bosses. Welcome to the latest episode of Do Small Business Like a Big Boss. If there were a picture that represented multi-hyphenated talent, there will be a picture of our next guest, L. King, next to it. I'm gonna let Joy tell us about herself in a second, but for now, I just wanna say welcome, Joy. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat today. Thank you, thank you so much. So how would you describe what you do? Not the bio version, but like if you ran into someone at the grocery store, how would you explain who you are and what all the things are that you do? That's a great question. I'd like to think of myself as a lifestyle architect. I really am about access work in particular. So how do I help people, you know, break through barriers in their lives, in their careers, in their homes, in order to kind of access whatever it is that they desire on the other side of that. And so, like, if I was going to explain it to a five-year-old, it's kind of that, right? Like, you've got big dreams, you feel stuck in some way. My job is really to help remove those barriers to access. Okay. So you have the lifestyle architect business, which you just gave us a little sense of, and then there's a coaching business and then there's something that many people would describe as a day job. Yes. So let's unpack that a little bit and just start with the lifestyle architecture. Cause I think the story behind that is fascinating. Tell us how you came to, ⁓ I guess. design an architect or explain to me the difference between the two, that particular business. Sure. So the pandemic happened to all of us. I was working, a nonprofit and found myself let go kind of, you know, we adjust the pandemic adjust hit. had to kind of pivot my team from in-person services. ⁓ we were providing, ⁓ training, IT training services we were providing the students and we had to quickly pivot from. in person to a virtual environment. And shortly after kind of getting the organization physically moved out of the space into homes, getting students back up and running with kind of virtual equipment and totally shifting the model, I got laid off and found myself at this kind of crossroads place. I think a lot of people found themselves. Do I continue in this kind of unknown space or do I look at this as an opportunity to try something different and. I think I was in a space at the time of like, I think I'm just over it. think I'm over kind of being told like what to do and when to do it and where to show up and where to not show up. And I felt a little bit defeated in the, I had done so much hard work for this particular organization and then to just kind of be let go in the midst of what was unknown for so many people. And so I said, you know what? I'm just going to start a business. I had been planning to. started business and it never felt like the right time. It never felt like I could afford, know, literally afford the risk. And I had been talking to a coach and she's like, is there ever really a good time? What are you waiting for? You know, you could, you can have all your ducks in a row and still not feel ready. So, you know, what are you going to do? And so honestly, I, I just leapt. just decided that. Interior design in particular was something that I had always been interested in. I had always kind of studied to some degree, not formally, but we all watched HGTV and I had kind of designed my own home and helped some friends. And so I kind been doing it, but it was an opportunity to really launch the business. I launched my business in the way that nobody ever tells you to launch a business. You know, I didn't follow any rules. There were actually too many layers going on at one time. So. Right now you see two separate and distinct businesses with their own kind of message and branding. But when I first started Lifestyles by Joy, it was everything. It was like, you want to design your home? Sure, let's do that. You want to launch your own business? Let's do that. You want coaching for how to do strategic work? We can talk about all of the things. All of the things are kind of nestled under this Lifestyles brand and for three years of working for myself during the pandemic as my sole job at the time. I learned what you learned very quickly, right? Like there's your brand gets muddied. People don't know what you're talking about. had clients say, how are we picking out paint colors over here? And you're launching LLCs over there. Like, you know, so it, it, was a lot of like dive in and figure it out as you go. What do they say? You know, build the plane as you fly it. And so that's really kind of how the business started. The interesting thing is. It was crazy successful, like, you know, like right away. And I think part of it was because everybody was at home. So it was this perfect storm of like, well, I am at home and I knew, do need to figure out what to do with this space in my house since I'm going to be here every day. And kids do need to have a place where they can work. So I started working with a lot of families who were looking to just create function in their homes. And it just really took off from there. So I call myself a lifestyle architect because it really is. It's not just about design and it's not just about coaching. It's truly about living kind of the life you want. know, what does it look like to architect or craft the life of your dreams? And how can I be part of that solution for people? There's so much in there to unpack. think in my view, like the pandemic, as horrible as it was birthed a lot of things because people had to really be thoughtful about the life that they wanted and realizing really how truly delicate it was. So I appreciate that you were able to crystallize in your mind, that you were ready to take the leap. And one of the things I think for a time I was really into watching the Marie Kondo show, especially I read the book and then especially when it was on Netflix, how transformational it was in people's lives on an emotional level when you come in and you transform people's spaces. Is that something that you experienced in your business? Yes. It's probably my most favorite part of the work. You know, you think you have an idea in your mind, it always starts in one place. And then by the time we finish a project, I mean, it's, it's complete therapy. ⁓ but you know, it may start with, you know, I, for example, my very first client is a friend of mine and she's like, I just need my bedroom to be a place where I want to come every night and I want to relax. And so it was about. taking her vision for how she wanted to use the space and kind of creating this oasis. And, you know, to this day, I don't know how many years later now, it's still her favorite place in her home. And that really, I think, was the piece of the work that I enjoyed the most. It's helping people get from a place of, is how I think I want to use the space, or this is what I think will bring relief to actually experiencing that relief. ⁓ Suite life business coaching kind of got born out of that same thing. You know, just from a business standpoint, how do you see yourself as as a founder or a CEO or you, when you look at your business goals, you know, where do you want to see yourself? And then how do we backwards map to kind of create that vision for you? And so it's the same principles that I carry kind of throughout all of the work that I do, even at NCAN, you know, as, the people who takes care of. kind of people and strategy and operations, right? Like, where do we want to be as an organization and how do we kind of craft the experiences to get there? And I think that level of strategy really cuts across everything that I do, regardless of if we're picking out fabrics or if we are writing strategic plans, it's really about creating space. that supports how people actually want to live or show up in their workspaces. in the early days, you just said that you actually got business right away. What was it about the pandemic that helped that to happen and how did you get the word out? Yeah, so my business has always ⁓ almost always been just for a short time, I opened it up to things like thumbtack and those kind of places. But it's been word of mouth. It's been a referral based business. The deal is that's a business strategy for me now to to take referrals only. So it started with one friend who, you know, I don't know if you've heard the term the first follower, like you got a great idea and then you got your first follower. So one friend who was my first follower, and then it kind of went from there. was, you did this person's bedroom? Well, I have a home office that I've been thinking about. And then it was another friend, and then it was somebody I didn't know. And then I got connected with a contractor, which was great because during the pandemic, contractors were finding themselves also out of work. So I had an opportunity to like start to build a team of people that could just follow me from project to project. And so then they brought people, they're like, you know, actually I know a designer. and it helped, it helps me as a designer to have a, to have contractors at the ready. Cause it cuts down on our, you know, production time, but it also helps contractors to have a designer cause contractors are not designers. Right. So it really was about. building this interesting community during the pandemic. think we all found that we needed community and I just kind of kept inserting myself into various community and word of mouth spread fast. I even found myself working in a particular area. So there were a lot of clients in Columbia, Maryland, interestingly, where it was like I did one home there and then suddenly I had four Columbia, Maryland clients because they were all just like, ⁓ you worked in Columbia. So I think in the pandemic in particular, and it probably is still is true now, folks were just looking for something that felt familiar, things that felt safe, people that were kind. And I say to folks all the time, you don't sell your business, you sell yourself. And so I always have wanted to be the kind of person that folks felt like they could rely on and was trustworthy and could connect with them. And it's not about money for me. It's really about, because I say all the time, all money's not good money. It's really about, is there a connection here that makes me feel good as a person delivering a service and that makes you feel good as the person receiving it, right? Like can we form community and connection? And that really is what I think has built the business for me. It's not any particular list of here's how to build a business. Like I said, if I was to write that book, it would be completely about relationships and community and not about, you know, the ones of. building a strong business. So first of all, I want to go like this to you because in a lot of the spaces that I'm in, I have that conversation about, ⁓ money ain't good money. I've probably said it on this show if I went back and listened to some of these episodes. Because it's that combination of does it align with your ethics, your goals, your interests? And I really firmly believe that when you focus the money will fill in from the other places that it needs to fill in when you get so focused as an entrepreneur. If you just take anything, sometimes that's not good. If you're an institution or you're a retail establishment, you may be tempted to take all money, but all money ain't good money. So thank you. feel affirmed in that. But I wanted to pull the thread on this whole idea of network connection community because There's a lot of talk about that now. Your business started, or at least business number one, started in the backdrop of COVID. And now we're in this AI era where everything is like, well, let AI do it and create this bot. But I am feeling this counter movement about human connection and community. How does that resonate for you in your work? Yeah, I'm actually sitting at the center of this kind AI conversation in my day job. because there's more organizations are figuring out it's here. We don't really know what to do with it. We don't know if we trust it, but we know we've got to lean in to some degree. And so I love AI. It's become the world's best assistant. I've used it to expand my capacity and capabilities. And that's really the lens right now that I work from, especially from an HR setting. You'll see AI showing up a lot in ⁓ the HR world and it's really about how do we, for us, that work with in talent, it's about like, how are we utilizing AI to help shorten the distance between what we are trying, you know, the things that we're trying to accomplish without losing that like crucial human element, right? Like behind the machine, there need to be people, right? Like there needs to be people thinking about people, creating experiences for people and your AI can't do that. Now, AI is getting really, really sophisticated in that it's able to replicate a lot of these kind of basic kind of human behaviors, but the crux of who we are can never be replaced. And I think that really, that kind of soul, I think, needs to stay at the center of all conversations and at the center of all work. So while I'm a firm believer in utilizing the resource, I mean, it's a resource, right? Like utilizing the resource to make our lives easier, better, faster, more efficient. We can't lose sight of the fact that we're the ones that need to be doing the thinking. We're the ones that need to be doing the loving. We're the ones that need to truly be the heart and soul at the core of the work and allow the resource to just expand our capability and our capacity. Yeah, I, you know, having practiced employment law for 30 years and I do a lot of speaking on the use of AI, whether it's being aware of potential bias in the tool. Cause at the end of the day, the tool was still programmed by people who bring their own various lenses to things that you always have to keep a human in the center of it. And like you, I use it quite a bit, like an associate. It's an extra associate that I don't have to pay six figures to, right? As I'm running my business. But I always say that the AI has information, but it doesn't have expertise. And in this business, when you're in the people business and you're sitting across from someone who is going through a tough time, going through a crisis, trying to navigate conflict, like that machine is not going to be able to help you make your way to the other sides. least it shouldn't. Yeah, it shouldn't. My, you know, tip free tip is just to not remove the people from it. It is a tool that is incredibly powerful and helpful, but you know, you got to keep the people. I want to circle back a little bit. back to your lifestyle when you started out, because you left, and it sounded like you had success pretty quickly. But was there a time where things got rocky and you like rethought your life choices and said, you know, what the heck am I doing? Tell me about that. I mean, you know, this probably at some point in every day where you're like, why did I do this? So I left, yes. And I was building it as I went. So that meant like figuring out like, ⁓ people have to pay me. OK, well, what does that look like? Right? Or. I need to be able to quickly get a brochure out so that folks know what I'm offering, right? So you're constantly creating on the fly and trying to get more efficient on the fly. I think the biggest shift for me was when I started chasing the money. You know, you have a nine to five, you're like, okay, I know when I get paid. I'm either going to get paid every other Friday, I'm going to get paid on the 15th and the end of the month, right? But that's not the world in entrepreneurship. No, ma'am. You know, you don't always know where that next ⁓ paycheck is going to come from or that next project. And so I think I started to flounder when I allowed that to be my driving force. I got away from the things that you just heard me talk about, right? Like the relationships and that's when I'm like, okay, well, let me get on thumbtack and Let me get on Angie's list and let me put myself in these places so that people can find me. ⁓ and, let me get so good about refining my processes and let me do leads. And again, all these things that I think the reason why they're written in the manuals is because there is, there is credence to them. they're, they're real strategies and tactics that do work. But what I didn't realize is that I had built an intuitive based business and, and that follows an entirely different set of rules and belief systems than. you know, a typical one. Intuitively, I had to make the moves that felt good to me. And when I got away from that, when I did not follow my gut, things went downhill, money started to dry up, projects started to stall. So I think it was really about kind of holding true to who I am and that part of the faith that it took to take that leap means that I had to commit myself to a path that was to some degree... Uncertain, but as long as I stayed the course and stayed, know, kind of bound to my values I would be okay and and I have found that every single time When I go back to listening to my gut when I go back to saying no to things that don't necessarily feel aligned when I go ahead and say yes to something that feels like a stretch and scary but That seems like I should do it. Anyway, right? I have I have found success. I have not had to worry about the money coming I just told you I built an entire business based on referrals. And I have not yet had to worry about like where the money is coming from when I ground myself in those beliefs that it is coming and I follow my intuition and I follow my gut. Now, of course, there are still basic, you know, business practices, right? Like I'm organized and I call people back on time and I don't show up late and I deliver what I say I can. All of those things also have to be true. But in terms of like... What are the core decision-making practices or belief systems that I use to make this business? It's all intuition. Well, we're going to get to the processes because I think ⁓ some, not everyone is blessed with the intuition. Yeah. So they need some grounding. And I would imagine having your hands in three different endeavors requires some of that process system and organization. So why don't you tell me like, okay, At the time of this recording, this is a random Tuesday. What does a random Tuesday look like for you having the architect business, the coaching business, and then the day job? So right now today, I just finished a project. I did a whole home makeover. It was actually supposed to start just in the basement. And then of course, in the process of building relationships and talking through things, she's like, actually, can we just do the whole house? And of course that's what anybody wants to hear, right? Like, yes, we can. Absolutely. which allows me to want to end up taking on more of a project. It was a greater payout, but now I can say, I'm going to take a minute from that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to take another client right now. I am doing some strategic coaching for a nonprofit at the moment. today looks like prepping, because I know I have a coaching call coming up in a day or so. My day job has me doing all kinds of stuff. I'm in the middle of an office move, which... It's interesting it's pulling in that kind of design work again, because I have to design a brand new office space for us. I'm hiring a new team member. So I think the biggest challenge probably above all is holding multiple roles at once. You know, it is a demanding executive role. do, I am building two businesses. But I would say, I think the thing that I navigate, I navigate that through ruthless prioritization and boundaries. Not every opportunity is the right opportunity, just like not every, you know, I get to say when I want to work and when I don't want to work. I have turned down really great projects because from a capacity standpoint, rest was just more important. I talk about rest as a organizational strategy, not just as something, you know, that we see as a luxury. I only focus on work that aligns with my strengths, my strategy, my leadership, my creative vision, so I can structure my time to sustain it long-term. And I think that's what keeps the ambition that I have from turning into burnout. So yeah, they're underneath it, underneath all of that, like people might say, know, witchy ways or intuition or call it what you want, right? But underneath that, there are some very strict structural practices. that keep not only me going, but also the work. there a tool or other kind of system that you use that helps you manage all three of the buckets? Yeah, so I use HoneyBook, like you're talking about legit tools. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I use HoneyBook for both businesses. So I think rule number one, don't kind of outpace yourself with tools, right? Like, find something that... works, find something that works quickly and easily. There are a lot of design based kind of databases and tools, but there weren't a ton of tools that, you other than using like Asana or some project management tools, right? Like it was hard to find kind of an all-in-one solution. And I found HoneyBook and HoneyBook allows you to create, to have two business profiles within one, within one tool. So I can easily switch between Suite Life or Life, excuse me. Suite Life or Lifestyles, and the branding is already folded in there. It's very quick. Same thing with Canva. That's another tool, like creating like quick brochures or templates or things like that. So, I have found some kind of out of the box ⁓ tools that have been really helpful to get information out to people quickly, receive money quickly. I think that's the other piece of it, right? Like it should not be hard for people to pay you. ⁓ figuring out very quickly. how to do that and what tool to do that. So Honeybuck is kind of my one size fits all, even does my taxes and finances. All of that is kind of baked into that. So I do that. I also live and die by my calendar. I have both the calendar and the phone and the calendar that I write on. I'm old school, I'm a former teacher, so I still like to take notes and put pen to paper, but the simpler the better. I don't have a ton of things because you have to then manage a ton of things. So for me, it's really about how can I get as much done as quickly as I can? And my phone, my calendar, my laptop, my honey book are really the places where I have everything organized. That's comforting in a sense. I've been telling my friends that 2026 Aisha, if it's not in my calendar, it doesn't exist. does not exist. Just, you know, it just... has to be that way because I'm at the point where it's just too much stuff happening. It's too much to keep track of that I think like, ⁓ yeah, I'll remember that. you just, you don't want to miss the important things. You don't want to miss the little things. That's right. But I wanted to ask about you doing all these magnificent things. And, you know, many of my listeners are maybe still in their day job and they're trying to plot their next thing. What was that conversation like with? the folks at NCAN to say, I have all these other endeavors. You need to know that and be good with that. Like, did you have to run it through a conflict of interest policy? Was there a formal approval process? Or you just said, this is what I do. How did that conversation go? That's a great question because I realized what a privilege that is. So prior to getting the job at NCAN, I said to myself and on a vision board, it's time for me to be a chief. And I went through an entire exercise, number one. You gotta have a person in your corner that helps give you advice. Even if you're the person giving advice, need coaches, doctors need doctors, therapists need therapists, right? Like you gotta have a person in your corner. So I have had many mentors and coaches and folks that I lean on. So think that's number one. I don't just, I wasn't born with all the answers, right? You gotta have good people. Number two is I laid out my life. Like what is it that I wanted to accomplish? I don't... You know, if you don't, if you do vision boarding or whatever it is that you do to, you know, make lists. And so part of the decision to go back into industry was really about how much money do I want to clear for myself and my kind of once needs, you know, nice to have bucket. And I realized that I didn't want to put all the pressure of that dream on my entrepreneurial ventures. I wanted those to still feel like creative outlets, opportunities for me to give back. And so they couldn't hold the weight of all of my financial desires. So that was one of the reasons to go back into industry. I also wanted to make sure I could go back in the industry the way that I wanted to. So while I did have another job prior to Incan, I said, it's time to be a chief. I want to make sure that I clear this amount of money per year and I need to be able to work the jobs that I currently have. even before applying and actually those guidelines helped even decide which jobs I applied for and which ones I didn't. So I think that was number one, like just being really clear about what I wanted so that when the opportunity to negotiate came, I could just say it, I could state it as fact. And can honestly didn't blink, you know, they were like, yeah, most people have some kind of a side thing. It's just kind of the way of the world. Again, I think the pandemic was helpful in that because suddenly all these businesses were born. had entrepreneurs. You know, trying out things that they never had before. And I think it had become the new way of the world. So when I go in and I'm like, turns out, you know, I got these other two businesses and I want to work for you full time. They were like, yeah, as long as you're not doing work that is directly in conflict with the work that we do or poaching folks or, know, we had, I didn't have to sign anything. It was, it was really just an easy conversation, easier conversation than I thought. But I think that number one is black women. We're never taught to. negotiate, we never really talked, but it's okay to ask for what we want. We're never told to just say the thing, right? Like that's all kind of, you know, new practice. And so I think it was really helpful for me to get very clear about what I wanted all the yeses to be prior to actually having those conversations, because I went into them way more confident. And I think that confidence carries the conversation as well. I didn't really give them any choice to say no. was kind of like, this is what I'm... This is what I see for myself. I want to be here and I want to be committed to this work, but I also am going to have a life outside of here. And you're never going to have to worry about me compromising the work for you, but you should know that I am, this isn't the whole of who I am. And I think that was an important conversation to have. That what you just said is so action packed on multiple levels. Cause I think as someone who's always represented employers, one of the things that you have to be concerned about is. are they using your time that you're paying them for to pursue their other endeavors? That's right. But in the old days, when I was coming up, always joking say, like my first law firm, they wanted you to take the omerta, which is like the blood oath that all of your efforts in life will be devoted to them and only them. Yeah. And there's certainly been a shift, but you do have to have that balance, right? I don't want to walk by you in your cubicle and see that you're doing work for somebody else's company or your own company because I'm paying for that. On the other hand, there's a lot of places where you legally cannot restrict someone's outside work as long as they're getting the stuff done and they're delivering what needs to be delivered day to day. That's the key thing in my view. But I think- it back to that relationship piece, right? Like, I'm going to be somebody you can trust. Maybe you don't know that immediately, right? But I'm going to- value creating a relationship where you won't even have to question how I'm spending my time, right? Like it'll be evident in the work, the quality of the work that I produce and the quality of the person that I am. So I think that again, going back to like tying in those relationship pieces, regardless of the environment is huge. It's like the line from Maxwell, like don't ever wonder if you don't give your boss like reason to wonder whether you're getting the job done. I think you get more latitude afforded you. You do. It's when they're like, I'm still waiting on that assignment and where are they? Right. And then that starts to create the issue. But ⁓ one of the things that you talked about that many folks talk about, I have a coach. I just had the great pleasure of traveling to Denver, Colorado for the first time to watch my beloved Knicks crush the nuggets. it was in part also to have a business meeting with my coach and everyone needs. coaches. So I'm just curious, like in your coaching work, what is the number one mindset block that you see holding business owners back? Even if they have like the talent, they had a real deal as a coach, putting that coach hat, so not architect, now you shifting to coach. What are some of the mindset blocks that you see? Lack of deserving of what they want. They don't believe they actually deserve it or they don't believe they can actually have it. And that's actually I have found that fascinating because I've had people, you know, comment, request my services to help either build a business or to take a business, to scale a business. You know, it's been successful. We want to take it to the next level. But then you kind of get under some of the blockages that you see in the decisions that they're making. And it's really about a personal belief system or lack thereof, this kind of lack mentality. And while I'm... Quick to tell people, you know, my coaching is not life coaching. We can't have business without life. Right. Like we can't, so to some extent we have to get at what, what is holding you back? What is it that you actually believe is true? Um, that isn't in alignment with what we're trying to build. So I think that's been a huge piece of it. think the other thing is that business owners are just busy, you know, doing all the things that I said that, you know, are great 101s when starting a business, they're marketing, they're networking, they're launching things. They haven't defined success though. They don't know what the core business model is. Like what is it that you're trying to accomplish? And it sounds so simple, but that's where we spend the bulk of our time in an initial coaching relationship. It's really about like, what's the problem that you're trying to solve? Who are you trying to solve it for? And then what's, what way are you delivering value? And that value piece, I think really trips people up. They're not quite sure what value it is that they offer. You know, you want to change the world in this way. You know, you've got, I've worked with a woman who, who was starting her own eyelash company. You know that ultimately you want women to feel good about themselves, right? But like, what sets you apart from all of the other folks out here doing the exact same thing? Why are people going to come to you? And I guarantee you it doesn't have anything to do with your marketing or your networking or what package you put the lashes in. It has everything to do with who you are and how you confidently sell yourself to people. So I think those are really, those are kind of really the places where I see business owners trip up. Just not having clearly defined value or a model and also not having quite gotten over the hurdle, that like personal hurdle of like, why am I even deserving to have success here? Because once you realize that you're deserving and you're worthy, then you'll have it. And I truly believe that. Yeah, that is so spot on when you just think the questions that you ask folks, they seem so simple. They're really hard. They're really hard. And I teased my first born when he was a younger fella and he was trying to help me parent his brothers. Your help's not helpful. And I think as a business owner, you want your help to be helpful. That's right. There's the gap between what the services we want to provide, the product is that we want to build, but is that actually helpful to a customer base that will buy it? That's right. Because otherwise it becomes a hobby and not a scalable business. That's true. I would say all the time, is it? You got to focus on building repeatable value first, right? Like, what is it, you know, if you think about growth in stages, you can't scale everything at once, right? Like, what's the repeatable value? What is it that you can have a hundred products, but there's got to be that one thing that you deliver really well, really clearly, you know, clear processes and outcomes. That's that foundational piece. And that's really what you're going to, when things get hard, And it's time to like scale back, right? Sometimes you got to go back to go forward. You got to know what that repeatable value is. And it's not always five things. Sometimes it's one. And so getting very clear about, if I do nothing else, I do this, is I think important for business owners to hone in on for themselves. speaking of, if I do nothing else, what's the first thing someone should do? in like their first 30 days of starting a business before they spend a single dollar or dime on a website or logo or any like branding? Yeah. I think, yeah, before you, before you do anything, what's your why? Like, know, I think getting clear, people will ask you, you asked me in the very beginning of this conversation, now who are you and what do you do? Right? Like you've got to have that clear. If you're fumbling around with, you know, Well, I do this and I do that and I do that, right? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna earn any space with you, right? Like people are gonna be very quickly like, okay, you sound just as confused as I am, right? Like, gotta know your why. Why am I here? You know, it's the old elevator pitch, right? Like if you got 30 seconds to say, what it is that you do, you need to be able to do that. And you don't spend any money on that, right? Like that's the conversation with you and you. Now sure, you can... hire a person to like help you refine that. They talk about finding your niche, but it is really important that you understand why are you even bothering to show up today to do this? What is this even better? I like to call it what? know, if you tell me all these things and then I say, what? Right? Yeah. People get, people are like offended. that's like- Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, hurts somebody's feelings. you got to feel that because- But it means that we're not quite there yet, right? Like you told me a lot of stuff and so what? And so I like to say, so that people have access, right? I want people to have access to design. You know, you don't have to be white and on HGTV to get access to design. You can be, you know, person of color in your small community and have access. You know, I want, I don't want a gatekeep, right? Like you'd have all of what you need. to be successful, whatever that looks like. And I think everybody needs to understand their... Yeah, and winding our conversation down, that idea of access is part of why I do what I do in the model that I do it. Doing, know, shameless plug, subscription-based billing. I had some services performed recently where I got an estimate and I got a bill that was four times the estimate. And I was like, what the what? So that could just blow the budget of a small business owner could just totally blow your budget out of the water. So having access is critically important to me. Last couple of things I wanted to ask you, you have a lot of information on your websites about the legacy that you're trying to build. you think about yourself five or 10 years down the line, what do you want space? Do you want all of these different endeavors to be in and what do you want to leave for your daughter? That's tough. I think it gets refined probably all the time. I would say the thing that really has hit me right here, right today in this moment is I want her to know that everything is possible. If I've done nothing else right, she can look at her mother and say, well, mom did all the things, right? Like even if she can't explain it to people, just the mere fact that I took a chance and I left my mark in homes, businesses, individuals, on students, right? You don't have to, I was telling my English students, I don't care if you remember Shakespeare, but I care that you remember being in this room with me, with each other, and that we tackled important, hard things together. And that you'll carry that with you more than you carry Romeo and Juliet, right? And I think it's the same thing for her. I didn't grow up truly understanding that the world was my oyster. I just kind of had to make it so. And I think the privilege that these kids have is that They kind of know it, right? And I want her, I don't want there to be anything that like scares her in that way. Like just go out and do all the things. She's about to graduate from Spelman. And so we're looking at the real world now and staring it down and she's getting ready to go to grad school. you know, she's, she's like, only got accepted to one grad school and I'm waiting to hear about these others. And I was like, you got your yes. Right? So regardless of whatever happens. You got your is gravy. Everything else is gravy. let that kind of, let that be the door opener, right, for all the other things. You got your yes. You are okay. And that I think is an important part of legacy is just knowing that you got your yes. You got the okay to go out and do whatever it is you want. Even if you totally change your mind and do something different. The fact that you know that you've got somebody behind you that believes in you, that paved the way for you. You got your yes, go out there and be great. And that's what I want. I want people to feel like, I can do this. And if they, if I'm a little bit helpful in why someone feels more relief or why someone feels, you know, more safe or why someone got the push they needed over a hump, then I think I've done enough. And that feels really good to think about. Beautiful. All right. This is the last real question. When you hear... the phrase, do small business like a big boss. What does that mean to you? I think it means it's what I say right now. I want to be paid to think. It really means thinking like a leader, not just working in your business. You know, like I don't want to just be a worker. really want a big boss to understand strategy, protects their time, build systems, focuses on high value decisions. I think it's about operating with intention and confidence so that you don't have to constantly react. Right? Like you can be grounded and settled in the core of who you are and the values that you create for yourself. That really, that's big boss to me and kind of letting the chips fall where they may. And that actually feels really good to think about. Nice. Joy, where can the people find you if they need to find you in all your different spaces? I am, I'm on LinkedIn. I think that's a great place to go look. Lifestylesbyjoy.com is probably the... first really good place to start. Suite Life Business Coaching is a little bit longer, but I'm on suitelifebusinesscoaching.com, lifestylesbyjoy.com, LinkedIn. And yeah, I'm excited, maybe to a podcast near you soon. All right. More things. So thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for your time and lending your talents. All right, bosses, that's all we have for today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please make sure you subscribe because it really helps this podcast grow. And finally, but always, just remember, build that dream messy, build a dream scared, but just don't build it small. We'll see you next time.