Latest / Mythic Mind Games / 13 - Final Fantasy I-III: Order, Chaos, and Early Storytelling

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13 - Final Fantasy I-III: Order, Chaos, and Early Storytelling · Mythic Mind Games

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Games, an extension of
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the Mythic Mind Fellowship, which pursues wisdom on the paths
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  Speaker 1: between primary and secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andreel Snyder, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm glad.
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  Speaker 2: That you're here.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome back as we continue with our final Fantasy series,
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  Speaker 1: now finally actually getting into some specific titles, beginning with
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  Speaker 1: one through three, which i've linked together here just because
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  Speaker 1: they're they're a little bit light on story now. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I will say that they advanced that with each of
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  Speaker 1: these titles. You know, two is a significant step forward
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  Speaker 1: in storytelling versus one. But even still in these first titles,
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  Speaker 1: we're dealing with a lot of the same kinds of
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  Speaker 1: things happening. You know, you got to go fix the crystals,
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  Speaker 1: realign the world. Like. It's a lot of similar sort
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  Speaker 1: of stuff here. So I figured it makes sense to
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  Speaker 1: tie all these together now, as we usually do. I
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  Speaker 1: think it'd be worth just hearing some thing about your
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  Speaker 1: experience with any one or all of these games, or
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  Speaker 1: general thoughts kind of wherever you want to go. First.
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  Speaker 1: I know that I just recently, you know, started playing
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  Speaker 1: through the Pixel remasters, as as mentioned right now, I've
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  Speaker 1: just started on six, so I've been moving through them,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, I know Mike has been doing this
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  Speaker 1: as well, right going through these these early titles. So
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  Speaker 1: maybe you can fill me in on some of the
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  Speaker 1: plot because I've I went through them so quickly and
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  Speaker 1: they'll blend together that it just I can't separate one
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  Speaker 1: Crystal from another. But I really did have been enjoying
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  Speaker 1: this experience. I mean, obviously, these are very simple games.
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  Speaker 1: They're very different kinds of games, and you get versus
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  Speaker 1: like modern RPGs, modern Final Fantasy, and that you know,
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  Speaker 1: obviously you have to rely on the story. You're relying
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  Speaker 1: on the text. Although I will say that I think
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  Speaker 1: that's a certain charm to the Pixels. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: it's just nostalgia or something else, but I think this
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  Speaker 1: is a certain charm to them. And I've really been
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  Speaker 1: enjoying seeing especially how they develop from one one title
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  Speaker 1: to the next, where they'll, you know, one title, the
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  Speaker 1: really emphasized the story, and the next title the really
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  Speaker 1: emphasized some kind of gameplay mechanic and then so you
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  Speaker 1: can see that regarding with gameplay as well as storytelling,
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  Speaker 1: they really are developing with each title to the point
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  Speaker 1: where you get to six, which we'll talk about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a few days or a few weeks down the road here,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, by that point, I think they've really
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  Speaker 1: discovered themselves. You can see that early process moving title
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  Speaker 1: by title, which I've really been enjoying. But look to
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  Speaker 1: hear about your experience, David, why don't you kick us
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  Speaker 1: off here?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't have a whole lot to say here
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  Speaker 3: that I didn't say last week, because I I own
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  Speaker 3: Final Fantasy two and three on the Famicom, and I
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  Speaker 3: think on the PSP at least Final Fantasy two, and
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  Speaker 3: I think I've got two as well on the original PlayStation,
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  Speaker 3: but I have never played two or three. But Final
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  Speaker 3: Fantasy one I bought when it came out on the
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  Speaker 3: NES when I was a teenager, because that was probably
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  Speaker 3: about fifteen, nineteen ninety, and I really enjoyed it. But
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  Speaker 3: like you said, it's a very simplistic, sort of a
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  Speaker 3: straightforward story without a lot of character development. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: but you find like a rat tail and you turn
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  Speaker 3: into an adult. But that's the only growth. It's like
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  Speaker 3: literal growth. The sprites change. But yeah, I love them,
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  Speaker 3: and like you said, it's it's the beginning of something
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  Speaker 3: that went much much farther.
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  Speaker 1: Cool. Michael, want you tell us a little bit about
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  Speaker 1: your experience of these games.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I described in Piecemel the last
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  Speaker 2: time around. But yeah, I started late and late in
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  Speaker 2: the series, like I played like six first, I think,
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  Speaker 2: and then which is like one of the best ones,
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  Speaker 2: But then I backtracked, I played I played fun I
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  Speaker 2: see one of the Game Boy Advanced version originally, which
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  Speaker 2: is a bit different. They changed a lot of things
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  Speaker 2: from the original I know, particularly how MP is handled
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  Speaker 2: sticks out to me because the traditional Final Fantasy one
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  Speaker 2: setup is you have like charges for each tier of
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  Speaker 2: your magic, so like you've got a level one, level two,
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  Speaker 2: level three, and they each have separate char charge counts.
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  Speaker 2: But in the GBA remake, they went with the system
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  Speaker 2: that they used in later games, where it's just straight
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  Speaker 2: MP for everything and the pixel rematch, so they went
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  Speaker 2: back to the charges. So it's just a mechanical thing.
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  Speaker 2: But I think I always preferred the compces to myself.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, I remember thinking this is way more addictive
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  Speaker 2: than it has any right to be. Because I was
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  Speaker 2: coming from much more complex games. I thought, Okay, this
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  Speaker 2: is gonna be too simple, And like I said, the
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  Speaker 2: story is very simple. I wasn't particularly engaged in that,
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  Speaker 2: but it's like it just has a very addicted gameplay
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  Speaker 2: loop and it moves super fast, like you don't realize,
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  Speaker 2: like when you've been used to playing more recent Jerepyg's
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  Speaker 2: how fast older games moved. It's just like you got
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  Speaker 2: a couple of hours and then oh, you're at the
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  Speaker 2: new the next major fiend boss. It's like very little
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  Speaker 2: gap in between. And I remember starting that version of
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  Speaker 2: fan Fantacy two, the GBA version, because they were on
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  Speaker 2: the same cartridge one and two, and I bounced off
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  Speaker 2: of it very quick because of the job. They're not
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  Speaker 2: the job the stat leveling system, which is a really
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  Speaker 2: weird system in that game, and I have not yet
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  Speaker 2: been willing to go back to that. I watch a
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  Speaker 2: story recap for the purposes of this talk, but I'm
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  Speaker 2: not actually played through two three. I just played through
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  Speaker 2: for the first time literally last week. I took a
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  Speaker 2: break from playing Silk Song to play Fummzy three to
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  Speaker 2: kind of see what it was like, and I was, again,
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  Speaker 2: much like with one, I was surprised at how much
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  Speaker 2: I enjoyed it for how simple it was. That was
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  Speaker 2: the first game where they really delved into the job system,
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  Speaker 2: which was later developed further and final S n AC five,
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  Speaker 2: which is five is also excellent, by the way, I
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  Speaker 2: played that several years ago as well. And uh yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and like you said, the story is pretty simple in
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  Speaker 2: three as well. Two is the only one I feel
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  Speaker 2: like was really trying with story, but three still does
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  Speaker 2: some interesting things, Like I think three has one of
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  Speaker 2: my favorite overworlds that I've seen in any RPG, like
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  Speaker 2: even the game for that for a game that old,
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  Speaker 2: because it plays with multiple maps where the map you
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  Speaker 2: start on Surprise is a floating island which is completely
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  Speaker 2: separate from the rest of the world, and like you
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  Speaker 2: go outside and it's like this tiny little dot in
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  Speaker 2: this massive ocean, and then more stuff happens there. At
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  Speaker 2: some point you go get a submarine and go underwater.
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  Speaker 2: They were really playing with making that world feel really
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  Speaker 2: interesting and expansive, and that was probably my favorite thing
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  Speaker 2: about it, which was a surprise but yeah, really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a good point, And you know, going
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  Speaker 1: back and playing them now, perhaps it's easy to miss
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  Speaker 1: how complicated some of these things were. For the time.
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  Speaker 1: You know, like you said with f F three, how
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  Speaker 1: you have you know, world map inside a world map
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  Speaker 1: or at least to to totally you know, connect to worlds.
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  Speaker 1: And and you know that's something that they continue to
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  Speaker 1: play with as you move forward, about having sort of
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  Speaker 1: different worlds laying on top of each other. But and
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  Speaker 1: so that's just again one of those things where you
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  Speaker 1: see them playing with ideas, playing with the technology, and
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  Speaker 1: you know, continuing to tweak it a little bit and
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  Speaker 1: to really maximize what they have available. Well, let's see,
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  Speaker 1: so going to story, I mean going back to the
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  Speaker 1: first one, so the story correct me if I'm missing
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  Speaker 1: any of this. It's not that that's a whole lot
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  Speaker 1: to miss. But basically, you know, the the world's out
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  Speaker 1: of out of sorts because the crystals that symbolize or
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  Speaker 1: I guess represent or embody the primordial elements, right that
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  Speaker 1: they have been corrupted, and so you know, the earth
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  Speaker 1: is rotting, that the waters are not behaving that's supposed to,
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  Speaker 1: like the wind stopping, and and so everything's not really
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  Speaker 1: acting as supposed to. And so you have to go
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  Speaker 1: and actually wait before that we get Garland, right, what
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  Speaker 1: comes first here? Yeah, Garland was, so like, the prologue is,
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  Speaker 1: we've got to go save the princess, right, and then
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  Speaker 1: you go find her in these old ruins, captured by
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  Speaker 1: this evil dark lord named Garland, and you beat him
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  Speaker 1: as the first boss and you take the princess back
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  Speaker 1: and oh, we've just done our fantasy trope of saved
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  Speaker 1: the princess. And that's the prologue.
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  Speaker 2: Now there's the whole rest of the game, which is
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  Speaker 2: about the crystals.
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  Speaker 1: Right right right, which which is I mean, that is
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  Speaker 1: kind of interesting what they do plot wise, and that
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  Speaker 1: what seems to be the initial prologue quest, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it becomes pretty fundamental that you know, once you go
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  Speaker 1: off and do the things and you know, balancing the
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  Speaker 1: crystals and getting rid of these fiends that are corrupting them,
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  Speaker 1: that then you discover like the real source of corruption,
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  Speaker 1: which surprises Garland, right. And so you go back to
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  Speaker 1: the the Chaos Temple where you initially defeated Garland, and
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  Speaker 1: you find out he wasn't really defeated. That the fiends
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  Speaker 1: essentially like that their power sent him back in time
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  Speaker 1: to protect him, and so he gets sent back two
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  Speaker 1: thousand years into the past and then from there he
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  Speaker 1: takes these creatures that would at least become the Fiends,
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  Speaker 1: and he sends them two thousand years into the future
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  Speaker 1: so that way they can send him back. And so
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  Speaker 1: now he's in this this time loop as a way
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  Speaker 1: of achieving immortality, which brings us back to this you
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  Speaker 1: know trope that kind of spills into some of the
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  Speaker 1: Star Wars stuff I've be discussing the other podcast about
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  Speaker 1: the villains trying to grasp that immortality through artificial means,
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  Speaker 1: and so he kind of gains that through this time
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  Speaker 1: loop and then you know, after you strike him down
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  Speaker 1: again in the past, he becomes unveiled as the there's
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  Speaker 1: this demon chaos, right, which again gets to this idea
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  Speaker 1: that we've been talking about that we talked about last
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  Speaker 1: time about how sometimes they'll throw in like the demonical
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  Speaker 1: le villain that then gives way to the outright demonic
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  Speaker 1: at the very end. And so we see that Garland
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  Speaker 1: has sort of merged himself with this this demon of chaos.
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  Speaker 1: And so where you initially recognize that like as your
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  Speaker 1: quest to fix the crystals, like you're trying to bring
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  Speaker 1: order to the chaos, but now you recognize that like
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  Speaker 1: chaos as such is the true enemy, which I think
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  Speaker 1: that's it's interesting. Maybe there's something to do to deal
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: with their but uh, I mean based off that the
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  Speaker 1: plot summary, I mean what, I don't know, what do
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  Speaker 1: you think?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I remember, like when I was thinking through
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  Speaker 2: like overarching themes across the series, like what we talked
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  Speaker 2: about last time, there's this notion of like because like
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  Speaker 2: Chaos has created this time loop thing that there's a
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  Speaker 2: notion of cyclical evil and you have to break it
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  Speaker 2: somehow there at the end. I do think it is
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  Speaker 2: one of the first It is probably the first instance
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  Speaker 2: of fan fantasy being necessarily convoluted, because it's not at
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  Speaker 2: all clear how Garland became Chaos and created this. Dieblue
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  Speaker 2: is like, oh, somehow this happened. Like the story was
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  Speaker 2: supersable up to this point, and it's like super complicated
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  Speaker 2: to understand what's going on all of a sudden.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, like.
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  Speaker 2: Speaking when you mentioned the name being chaos, it makes
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  Speaker 2: me think of how I've heard it said, like one
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  Speaker 2: of the classical epic themes is this idea of civilization
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  Speaker 2: versus barbarism, which you could also characterize as order versus
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  Speaker 2: chaos in a way just not necessarily on a civilizational level,
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  Speaker 2: so you could argue they're playing on that notion, but
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  Speaker 2: it is a fairly simple primal concept in the theme.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we have the four classical elements that show
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  Speaker 3: up so often in video games. I mean, it's just
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: a good way to differentiate different areas. But also it
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  Speaker 3: it just works for this kind of a plot to
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  Speaker 3: have these representing the four different elements and then you
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  Speaker 3: have to deal with the chaos at the end.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that idea of the elements being in harmony
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  Speaker 1: and held together with an overarching order, I mean you
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  Speaker 1: can find that go back to the Presocratic Greek philosophers
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  Speaker 1: when they're trying to say what is the fundamental stuff
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  Speaker 1: of the cosmos? And you know something, you got to
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  Speaker 1: They at least sing it's water, you know, someone else
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  Speaker 1: is fire, it's ether, it's whatever. But you know, ultimately
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  Speaker 1: where where they ended up moving was the primordial stuff
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  Speaker 1: is something like order. It's you know, even hairclid it
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  Speaker 1: says it's the logos, the word, and that you have
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  Speaker 1: more fundamental than any of the elements is the reason
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  Speaker 1: that holds all of the elements together and allows them
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  Speaker 1: to you know, as they move as they as one
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  Speaker 1: ebbs and flows that ultimately they're operating in a way
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  Speaker 1: that's in tune with order, that's in that's that's harmonious.
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  Speaker 1: And so the most fundamental thing is order, which you
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  Speaker 1: know that directly feeds into this game where the primary
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  Speaker 1: enemy is chaos. And I think it's it's interesting that
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  Speaker 1: what we don't see is that the the cycle, the
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  Speaker 1: apparent fatalism like that's not final, which you know we
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  Speaker 1: talked about last time, that that relates to the mass
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  Speaker 1: effect conversations that that we had that it is possible
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  Speaker 1: to break out of this and have something like order
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  Speaker 1: that stands above and beyond and you know, after the
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  Speaker 1: destruction of chaos and so being is good, like order
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  Speaker 1: is fundamentally good, and it's actually achievable. And I think
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  Speaker 1: that that is I mean, it's a very I think
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  Speaker 1: it's a very Christian kind of idea. I know, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know exactly how that you know, it relates to
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  Speaker 1: Japanese philosophy and religion, but my understanding, I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if either you can correct me on this, is that
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you know that there kind of meta narrative doesn't tend
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: to be quite as linear as the Christian understanding. I
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: don't know that you can comment on that, but that's
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  Speaker 1: at least my my general understanding. So I find it
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  Speaker 1: very interesting when we get this theme of the fact
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  Speaker 1: that you can break the cycles and have something like
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  Speaker 1: goodness went out absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I don't know of if they have
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  Speaker 3: the concept of breaking the cycles. I know, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's it's kind of a mix of Shintoism and Buddhism
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  Speaker 3: that Japanese always joke like that we're we're Shinto at
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: birth and we're Buddhist at death, because they just they
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: have Shinto rituals for for their young children, and then
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: they have Buddhist funerals.
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  Speaker 2: It's just.
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  Speaker 3: More tradition than things that they actually follow in adhere
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  Speaker 3: to for the for the most part. But there is
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: that idea of reincarnation and repeating cycles for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, and I assume a lot of is Shintoism.
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  Speaker 2: I know that they have a notion of being in
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  Speaker 2: harmony with nature, which you argue that's kind of the
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  Speaker 2: order the crystals, the like, the like, they represent these
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  Speaker 2: primary forms of matter and classical sense by earth, air, water,
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  Speaker 2: keeping them in harmony and avoiding chaos could be tied
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  Speaker 2: to that, though I don't know how much fil fantasy
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  Speaker 2: specifically is drawing on Japanese philosophy, because it is apparent,
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  Speaker 2: at least to me, that they had some awareness of
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Western fantasy tropes when they were making it. Like, it's
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: got a lot of D and D influence to begin with,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: which started in the West. I know, the soundtrack by
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Nabu Umatsu, I know he was influenced a lot by
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Western styles of music and that. So I don't, like
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I said, I don't know how Japanese the story is
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  Speaker 2: an origin.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's fair enough. I mean, especially when you
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: get to two it. I mean, it's the you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: you strike down the Emperor, and maybe we can start
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of that plot, but just to this
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  Speaker 1: particular point, you know, you kill the Emperor and then
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  Speaker 1: he comes back basically as Satan, and then you have
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: to enter into Pandemonium, you know, drawing from Paradise Lost,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: which and I mean that's been used in several different
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: video games and stories, this idea of Pandemonium as this
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: city in hell that that you know, has some some
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: great conflict at that place. And so obviously we're not
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: just pulling on Japanese or even Eastern ideas, but that
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: there's very intentional engagement with the West. That that's definitely true.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Well it so how would you say, Well, David, what
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: would you say was the appeal of Final Fantasy one
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  Speaker 1: in your initial playthrough?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: I uh, I love and I've said this in several
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: other of these, I believe, but I just the scale
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: of the world and the sense of exploration has always
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: fascinated me in games.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: So the the.
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  Speaker 3: Bigger the world and the less direction I have, I think,
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: the more fun I have. It's one of the reasons
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: that I really enjoyed like Breath of the Wild, Zelda,
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Breath of the Wild because of it kind of rekindled
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: that I'm just going to walk in a direction and
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: then I'm gonna do what I run into.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Final Fantasy does pretty much lead you along a path.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: You hit, you know, roadblocks, you've got to you've got
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: to get a boat before you can get from here
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: to here. You got to get the airship so you
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: can get here. But it still feels like this big
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: world and you're free to go wherever you want. And yeah,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: that was that was a big part of the appeal
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: to me. Yeah, I also really love any game where
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: you can explore. Like to me, that's a lot of
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: the appeal of video games is I think they can
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: capture that much better than just about any other form
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: of entertainment. And yeah, that's one reason I was saying,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: like I said, why I like Fantasy three so much
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: is because the world feels big and it it you
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: kind of stumble on where to go, just kind of
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: meandering around, especially once you get into the larger world map,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: and that's kind of cool. It's like I just happened
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: to fly over this one city and they shot me down.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Oh dear, now what But like.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: You just stumble across that, it doesn't send you there.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And also that's another thing I think video gams do
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: well is they can give you partly because you spend
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: so much time with them, and because you are actually
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: actively interacting, is it builds kind of an automatic connection
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: between you and whatever's going on. So like, even a
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: very simple story can feel much more engaging because you
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: are literally engaging with it in a way you don't
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: with other media, which is more passively consumed. Which is
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I've always been fascinating.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: That is true. The time investment can can make up
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: for a lack of detailed plot at some point because
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: you've still been you're still invests like it. It's like
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: the end of a long running TV series or something
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: when you get to the end of a JRPG.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I recently, as mentioned the discord, I picked up
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: the novelization of one through three. I've only read the
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: first one so far, and I can tell you it's
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: not great literature. If I was just picking this up
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: just to read it independently of this, I would not
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: have made it very far before just putting it down.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Not that it's terrible, but it's I mean, not great
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: source material to work with. I was kind of hoping
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that they would, maybe that he would maybe flesh out
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: more of the story because it's literature versus a game.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: We need a lot of the gameplay they get to
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: cut out. But surprisingly it's actually even more simple, So
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't really know what to do with that.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It is interesting just to see kind of how he
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: goes about it, like he does give each of the
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: characters names and some kind of personalities. I mean, it's
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: it's pretty superficial and try. You know, you've got your
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: kind of stoic warrior, you've got your snide sarcast to
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: thief like it's all super trophy. But it's interesting. Don't
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: recommend it unless you just are really into Final Fantasy?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Where did? Where? Was the story of how that novelization
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: came into being? Was that written by a Western writer?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: When did it happen? No?
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: So it was, it came out and let's see what's
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the couple. I feel like it was like I want
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to say two early to any two thousand and six
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: or they comes to mind?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, well after the game's released.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it looks like a twenty fifth anniversary, So
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I guess it's the twenty fifth anniversary of I don't
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: know if it's f F one maybe yeah, so relatively recently
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: all things considered. Yeah, and so I don't know if
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: it maybe coincided with some of the re releases and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: reformats into you know, other editions, and so maybe that's
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: what it brought it about. So it's interesting but not
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: not great literature.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of like video game novelizations are
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: kind of an interesting area to me. I've never read
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: a good one. There's not that many. But I remember
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: when I was a kid there were I think it's
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: like called like Worlds of Power. There was a series
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: of novelizations of just a few random Anys games, and
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I read the one for Mega Man two, and yeah,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: it was not complex at all, Like how much story
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: can you put into Mega Man two? Right? And it
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: was kind of like when you describe Mega Man going
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: through the levels. It just it's not super engaging literature.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: It's like he shot the zenamy that he jumped over
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: a bit like it obviously gives you more to work
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: with those. That one's interesting.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the Mass Effect games, of course, they had
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: some spin off and like prequel novels that were written
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: by the head writer of the game, so I think
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: those probably work a little bit better, although I only
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: read one of those, the one about how Anderson almost
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: became a specter when he was younger. But yeah, I
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: don't think trying to make a book version of the
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: video game is a way to get kids to read
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: more more books.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that I'm inclined to read these kind
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: of books only because we're doing this, and that's just
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, doing my PhD just taught me
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: that if you're doing something, then read everything you can
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: about it. So that's that's where I'm going into this.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: But as far as just the literary value or the
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: way you're going to spend your time, like, I don't
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: see a lot of purpose in that, because if you're
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: going to pick up a video game book, like you
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: can pick up Lore of the Rings or like an
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: actual book, and I've used that time much more wisely.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Right, read read where the ideas for the games came from.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: It's exactly trying to make a book out of the game. Yeah, well,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: I know about three years ago there was a game
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: Stranger of Paradise, which was like the subtitled Final Fantasy Origin,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: and it was supposed to be kind of a dark
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Fantasy retelling of the original Final Fantasy. And I never
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: played it. I heard it's actually not bad. I mean,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: the story is really tropy and cheesy apparently, but that
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: the gameplay in the world is interesting. But mostly people
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: at the time were just making fun of how it
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: seemed that all the main character said was I must
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: kill chaos through the through the entire game. But at
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: some point I might want to pick that up in
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: the spirit of trying to consume everything I can to
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: understand a concept of a game.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that was developed by Team Ninja, right,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: the guys who make the Ninja gag and right right, Yea.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: It reminds me of when they made a Metroid game
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: other m which everybody hated the story in that game
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: so much.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I remember it was very very odd. Yeah, yeah, I'm
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: such a Metroid fan. I was still okay with it, but.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I was actually the same. I still one hundred percent
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: of it because that's like one of my favorite series.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: But anyway, we're talking about Falasi, Metroid Bought be a
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: interesting one for future talk for sure.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I suppose moving the focus a little
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: bit to the second game. So so in this one,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: it is definitely a step up in storytelling. Uh and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe Mike, you can fill in any gaps
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: that I have here in my memory. But basically, it
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: starts off with these orphans who are part of a
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: besieged community by the Evil Empire. Right, so we get
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the Evil Empire trope and this emperor we're told right
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: at the beating of the prologue, he's like summoning forces
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: of Hell or something, and so there's there's some demonic
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: connection in this this emperor and in this empire by extension.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: So they get knocked down by the imperial forces and
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: they are brought back and recover or revived by the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: good guys the resistance, And basically that the story is
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: just about you opposing the empire in different ways. You know,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: you have to like blow up their their lead airship.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: You you eventually strike down the emperor, as I said
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: later on, or after you kill the Emperor, this this
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: dark Knight that has been a kind of secondary antagonist,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: he takes over and you know, continues the imperial march,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: and uh, you know, eventually you find out that this
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: dark Knight now Emperor, is the brother of one of
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: your companions, and so that there's kind of a Vader
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: esque situation going on there, which is something that Final
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Fantasy will use again, as we'll see in the coming conversations.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: But but then, you know, as you face down this
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: this dark Knight, then suddenly this emp the emperor who
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: you had previously killed, now returns like as Satan or something,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: and and then you you have to follow him into
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: hell in order to defeat him for for real. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and that's basically the story is anything I missed, Michael.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, all I've got to go as a YouTube
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: recap that I watched the other day. So it's hard
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: for me to say. I do remember thinking, wait, he
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: comes back, he somehow took over Hell. How like, is
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: there anything explained of that or is it just kind
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: of out of nowhere?
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I mean it, it's pretty much out of nowhere. I mean,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: they at least gave you that connection from the very beginning,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: right that he's someone of these monsters from Hell, from
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: the underworld, and that's where his monster's minions are coming from.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And so we already see his some kind of relationship
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: with the forces of Hell, with with the demonic I mean,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and so I guess that relationship just runs even deeper
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: than you recognize at first. So there's something going on there,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: something diabolical from the beginning. But as far as exactly
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: how this transformation takes place, I don't really know that
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: that's not really explained. It's just suddenly he's there. It's
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty unnerving because you know, let's you
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen, Like you don't really see it coming,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: you know, you get ready to fight that this dark
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Night and then suddenly he just like comes out of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: nowhere and so like he's going to send you to hell.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I did not see that coming.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Just a sudden, very dark turn there is like, uh,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: never remind me. I think I remember. There was something
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: about like that dark Knight that you face. There's this
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: whole thing where you're trying to turn him away from evil, right,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: like he's tried to take over the empire in the
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Emperor's absence, and then like his sister is like in
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: your party or something, right, and she's like, don't be evil,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: come to join us or something. And that's when he
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the Emperor shows that well he actually so the Emperor
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, I might not be, but I
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: believe that it's when you're about to fight the Dark Knight,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: your companion's brother, when then the Emperor shows up and
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: then basically said, I'm just going to kill all of you.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: And that's when the Dark Knight says, oh wait, I'll
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: side with the good guys at least for a little while,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: and so that he stays with you. But then eventually
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: he kind of goes off on his own anyways, because
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: he's not totally repent, or maybe I think he feels
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: like he can't be accepted back into a society and
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: that's why eventually he leaves again. I guess there is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: an interesting story in there about like what it means
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: to like repent and whether you even whether you can
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: be accepted by those you repent toward, which is a
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: complex question in stories. I know there is some debate
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: when this theme comes up in a lot of stories.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, this guy killed a whole bunch of people,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Like we can't just like absolve that and let him
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: back into our fold, right, Like he has to face
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: some kind of justice, and others are like, no, you
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: need to be able to forgive. So there is definitely
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: a Christian relationship in that theme, But yeah, I don't
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: have a good sense of how well f F two
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: explores that.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of makes it feel like, well, he
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: helped us, and he's you know, he's family, so you know,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: the good guys just want him to just come back
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: and everything will be fine like that. They don't really
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: deal with that issue, although it's you know, it's he
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: the dark Knight that feels this guilt that doesn't allow
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: him to come back into the fold, But they don't
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: really deal with the issue of like what if he
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: did come back into the fold, Like what would that
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: practically look like given what he's done, that he took
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: over this evil empire and who knows what heinous acts?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I yeah, they just really don't deal with that, But
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: it's a question I think we're dealing with.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: That's a thing that you see a lot in media
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: where you can tell that a character is going to
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: have a heroic turn because they don't let them do
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: anything truly evil. They're on the bad guy's side, you know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: but they're not pulling a Darth Vader and killing children
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: or anything like that. They're just, you know, maybe doing
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: what the evil leader tells them to do. And then
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: that way you don't have such a messy turn and
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: they can be accepted once they become a good guy.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And of course if they do end up, you know,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: doing heinous acts like Darth Vader, then it becomes much
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: more convenient to let him have a heroic death because
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: they don't have to deal with it get very messy.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: If Luke is able to actually bring Vader back and
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: see what things away from there, all right, that time
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: to stand trial. Yeah, so go ahead.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to ask, since I've not played this game,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: do you create your characters in any way or choose
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: any classes for them or anything or no?
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: So not for this one. Pretty much everything Yeah, everything
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: just handed to you and so and so this is where,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: like I said, they tend to move between emphasizing gameplay
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: mechanics versus emphasizing story. And so even in the first one,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: you know, you get to pick your classes, your starting classes.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: You can't change it like the drop systems later, but
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: you at least get to pick what your party is
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: going to be for the entire game. And then in
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: the next one, everything's handed to you, but there's more
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: of a story happening here. And then when we move
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: to the third game, well, now we're going to move
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: back on the story, but we're going to allow you
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: to change jobs throughout, and so there's a lot more
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: gameplay mechanics going on. Yeah.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I do remember thinking after I watched it, it's like, oh,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: it's almost like it's almost like two was followed up
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: by four, because I can feel some similar elements and
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: how they told the story, Like it's like you have
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: all named party members who kind of. I think they
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: come in and out of your party, right, like some
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: leave and then others enter, which is very much a
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: four thing, and yeah, rapid fire story, but focusing on
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: the story. And whereas three, although it follows up one
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: with like focus on gameplay, it's also followed up by five,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: which is like three enhanced in a lot of ways. Yeah,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: so that's an interesting point. But they alternate.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like two, four, and six are story.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: One three and five were gameplay.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: So I'm glancing at a synopsis it says something about
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: the last surviving dragoon and stuff. Is it a dragoon
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: in the sense that Caine is in four. It's the
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: same sort of a thing or something else.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's the same sort of thing, and you
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: meet him in the belly of Leviathan. So this is
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: when when Leviathan get gets introduced. And so even though
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: at this point where so I don't think two had
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: summons in the proper form, I can't recall. I don't
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: think it does. I think three might be when that
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: really starts, but don't quote me on that. In any case,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you know, you get Bahama introduced in one. He upgrades
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: your party In two, you meet with Leviathan when you're
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: sailing in your ship and he swallows you, and there's
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: like a whole community inside Leviathan that that's been swallowed,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and that's where you meet this last dragoon, and so
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: then you fight your way out out of Leviathan's innards
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: and eventually you make it out with this dragoon who
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: later sacrifices himself to save the party. And so we
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: do get that rule that that sacrifice theme introduced, and
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: a few different characters I think in two, although maybe
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: confusing it with three as well, and then that you
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: know it's gonna well three else we get to four.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: It does feel like fums he is in love with
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: the heroic sacrifice trope because that, yeah, that happens a
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: ton in four. Like that's one of the things it's
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: famous for, is you keep losing characters because they keep
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: getting themselves killed. Three definitely has it. I remember that
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: sticking out to me with multiple characters, so but I
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: don't remember two, but I don't have a recap.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: It looks like two was also the first to have
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: a character named Sid in it, which is a oh yeah,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: that's also an important recurring Final Fantasy trope.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when did Biggs and Wedge start? I know they're
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: in six.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: I don't even know if Bigs and Wedge are a
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: localization joke or if they're or if they're in the
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Japanese version as well. I can't recall. I think they're
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: probably in the Japanese.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I think they are because I think originally they were
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: mistranslated as like Vix and Wedge, and then someone was like,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: that's supposed to be a Star Wars reference, it's Biggs
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: and Wedge, and so they translate correctly later on.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Right, Japanese has no V, so it's difficult to tell
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: they use a B whenever they're supposed to be a V.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: But yeah, because they're in six and seven for sure.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: But yeah, my son's name is Sid and it is
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: artly Final Fantasy related, but I don't spell it a
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: weird way.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, do you spell with the cer.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: No, it's spelled the best way, the normal way.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: So he's destined to grow up and build airships. Now
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: it's going to be his thing.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder how that got started. But
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's kind of cool to see that
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the beginnings of these final fantasy tropes. I get recycled
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: again again, you know the sid in it two or
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: in Chokobos. Are they in one? I can't remember, maybe
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: maybe two where they start?
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think they're in the first one, yea.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I think two is where they start. You know, you
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: get the Mughals in two or three? I mixed a
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: mop But somewhere in here they get started. And so
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: you see these early early tropes developing here. What what
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: is the story of three? I remember you're aligning that
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the crystals again, or you're fixing them or something. MIKEA,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: can you do you remember? Yeah?
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: This one is at least fresh in my mind. So two, yes,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: two gets you on the crystal thing pretty quickly. The
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: story kind of meanders, and I actually don't think it
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: explains itself very well, because there were several times where
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I was like, wait, what's going on here? Like who's Noah?
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Like why is he here? Other than like the biblical reference,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: and it never really clearly explains what was going on
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: with him, and then like he had these disciples? But anyway, Yeah,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: if I were to try to summarize the gist, it's
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: like you start out you realize like that you need
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: to go find the crystals. They're imbalanced. And there's these
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: people who talk about like some past legend of like
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: these four dark heroes and there's these four light heroes
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: that they're thinking you're that, and you're gonna bring balance
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: between light and dark as well as bringing alignment to
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: the crystals. And then you have like adventures with each
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: random crystal, and then at some point you get off
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: like you're starting islands like I mentioned, and then you
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: see the whole world's flooded for some reason, and there's
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: like the It would be fascinating on the original NES
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: version because I was playing the Pixelary Master, but I
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: think on the original or Fama conversion, it wasn't. On
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the NS. I think the Original Family conversion, you didn't
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: have world maps that you would have just been wandering
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: around the ocean for forever trying to figure out where
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: to go. And then you find like these two tiny
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: little islands and you find like this girl and one
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: of them who takes you to the water crystal and
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: you fix that, and then the whole world like raises
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: up out of the ocean all of a sudden, and
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: there's entire civilizations there, who I guess were like turned
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: into stone or something, so they lasted that entire time
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: while they were underwater, and now they just restarted life
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: again as if nothing ever happened. And then you like
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: save a king who's like being brainwashed by an evil wizard,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: and work your way up successive tiers of airships, and
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: then you end up going and meeting these three disciples
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: of this ancient Noah guy, and two of them are
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to deal with the third
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: one who's gone bad and has been deceived by the
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: forces of darkness, and you end up working with them.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: They heroically sacrifice themselves as one does in a final
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: fantasy game, and then you go and face Zanned, the
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: said disciple who went bad, and as you defeed him,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: you learn that he's being controlled by this ambiguous force
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of darkness that's coming from the world of darkness. And
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: then all your friends who you met along the way,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: like they help you out in your time of need
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: when you're about to collapse, and they're like, oh, fight
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: face darkness. And then you go into the world of
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: darkness and you face you deal with like these were
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: dark crystals which are there for some reason, and free
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: heroes who are trapped in them who come and help you,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: and you fight the Cloud of Darkness is the final boss,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: which just shoots you with particle beams and you hope
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: you have enough HP to survive at all and the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: right jobs, and then you beat it, and it says
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: and it talks about like that there's this cycle again.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: There's cycles to where there's this cycle like every like
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: thousand years or so, darkness rises again and heroes a
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: flight are supposed to rise up and challenge it, and
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: you were the ones for that era, and so there's
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: an implication that sometime in the future heroes don't need
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: to rise again for that. So that's the gist as
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I understood it.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of funny in some of these epilogues
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: when they come out and say, you know, now you
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: go and you know, put the world into order, and
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: so like this charge for you in real life to
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: go and do these heroic things in this world, which
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of cheesy, but I appreciate it
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: even more or less what we're talking about here. And
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: another trope that comes up sometimes in the series that
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: begins in three is this idea of the ancients Dsha
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: think that the guy that you meet up in Muhammad's
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: nest who has Amisia.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeahsh I think was the most interesting of the
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: side characters in that game, even though he's only with
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: you for like a few minutes. And then again at
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the very end, And.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: They do this a few times in these first titles
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: where at the end your heroes are in grave danger
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: and then all these people from your past somehow come
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: to your aid. Or is this someone where it's like
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: you get like paralyzed or something or a cursed at
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: the very end.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like a couple of things that happened. Like
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: first you're you're like surrounded by dragons right before zand
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: and then your friends all come to your aid all
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: of sudden, they get like teleported in somehow, and they
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: fight the dragons where you go fight zand and then
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: you beat zand and then cloud of Darkness obliterates you,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and then your friends kind of pick you.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Up so you can go fight Arness, right, And you know,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I don't fully understand. I don't know if I'm supposed to,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: but the kind of philosophy you get at the end
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: of the light in the darkness. It's like, you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: you you you have to go into the dark world,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: which you know when we hear dark world, I mean,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I think this can be like an evil place, but
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: it's it's not. It's just like a mirrored reality, I suppose.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: And so you go into the dark world and you
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: free the warriors of dark. You know, you're the warriors
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: of Light, and it's like you redeem the warriors of
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: dark that that are there, and in so doing, you
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you know, read balance the dark crystals or something. And
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: then the dark warriors going to join with your the
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: warriors of Light in order to stop this ultimate threat,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: which I don't I don't really know exactly what to
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: make all of all that. There seemed to be something
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I do remember thinking it felt very dualistic, kind of
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: like I think Clos talks about that in mere Christianity.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: It's like dualism is like what it feels like, kind
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: of one of the manliest philosophies, even though it's not correct.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: It's like thinking like light and dark are like equivalent forces,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: and you need to be careful not to let one
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: get the upper hand. I guess is the what foul
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Fantasy three is running with and.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I guess what I don't understand is like we exactly
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: are light and dark because not the same thing as
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: good and evil, because like the warriors, like the Warriors
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: of Dark that you that they help you, right that
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: rightly aligned, they're good guys, just like the Warriors of
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Light are good guys. And so this light and dark
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: that we're getting is not good and evil seems to
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: be just like I don't know if something else I
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: don't I don't quite know what to make of that.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: It's like it's just another dimension.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it does feel like there's definitely evil
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: stuff coming out of it, because like they're deceiving people
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: in your world to try to get their way, and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: they're definitely your enemies. But you're right, the heroes who
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: pop up, Like, what did it explain? Because I feel
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: like this was another thing was unclear. The guys who
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: rescue out of the crystals are those the heroes of darkness?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: That was my understanding that that would track, that would
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: make sense. I think I just didn't get that when
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I played it.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like somehow they were corrupted and so in
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: fighting them, you break the curse and they are heroes.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Again, that makes sense.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: It's looking like place names are like Er and Canaan
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: and stuff in the game.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember laughing when I came to a
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: city called Cadaan, was like a little lot of the nose. Guys.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: That's before you meet you find out about Noah, who
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I don't think you ever actually meet.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Very biblical story, right, Yeah.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: That is another thing that I feel like is very
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: common in Jerepyg's where they will found facy, especially where
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: they like to take like terms and concepts from various
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: world religions, but completely devoid of whatever their root meaning was,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: where they're just using it for random flavor, right.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: Seffie Roth and Genova and all of these things that
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: are very close to Jewish and Hebrew terminology.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: It did at least get no associated with the flood,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: So there's that.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Well. I like.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: What y'all are describing. I can imagine that at the time,
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: repeatedly being introduced to a completely different world map would
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: have been pretty mind blowing. In the what year this
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: come out? Probably the late eighties, right ninety Okay, this
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: came out, so they got this in Japan at the
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: same time, we were just getting the first one. But yeah,
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: I love that when a game lets me think I'm
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: nearing the end and then it just opens up much more.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: I love it jumping ahead. But like in seven, I
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: remember when you first get out of Midgar, I'm like,
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: I've already played this game like eight hours and I
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: just left the first town and got to the world map.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Like that was mind blowing to me.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: And then you play I've seven remake and you play
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: for forty hours and you finish an entire literal game,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, now we get out of Big Guy.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: There's so much more. We got a sequel. But yeah,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: speaking of like when the game came out, Like I
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: feel like I might be wrong on this, but in
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: my head, like Phantasy three might be like the least
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: played of all the fond plane Cy's in the West
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: because we got it so late, Like we got we
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: at least got two with the GBA re releases, but
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: then three. I think the first time we got it
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: was the Nintendo DS version and then now the Pixel remaster,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: which is the closest we've got to the original.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Is the DS? Is that really supposed to be the
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: same story? Is it like The Warriors of Light or
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: something well.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: No worries about is a different game which does actually
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: follow a lot of the systems that are introduced in three,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: but that is a different game. There is an actual
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: fan Plancy three on the DS, which I think you
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: can also get on Steam now, but it's like a
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: full three D remake, albeit Nintendo DS three D, and
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: they do expand a lot on the story. I know,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: like the main characters I think are actually named and
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: have actual want associated with them, But I have not
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: played that one. I didn't look up much on it,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: so I can say how much they change anyway. But
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: like my point was was like it being taken so
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: long to get over here. It's like in the West,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: we just don't have nostalgia for two and three and
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: a little more for five because we got it at
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: least in the GVA era. But I sometimes wonder, like
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: how different like our view on this series would be
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: if we had gotten those over here when they came
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: out and could have played them back when they would
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: have been more revelatory for us versus much much later,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: when we've already experienced so much other stuff after the
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: series had developed. I'm sure these games would have had
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: a lot more impact on some people as kids if
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: we've actually grown up with them.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's that's true. That basically the only
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: time people are going back and playing them now is
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: for the completion run or Yeah. And you know, two
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Get gets a lot of hate because of the leveling
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: system that they played with and unfortunately abandoned moving forward.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: But you know, I actually didn't mind it too much.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not entirely different than a number of
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: modern RPGs. I mean, like you know, Elder Scrolls or whatever,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: where if you want to advance the skill, you use
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: that skill. You know, it's not typically how fine a
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: fantasy works, obviously, and I mean that's why a lot
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: of people don't like it because of what they're used
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: to that actually didn't find it. I mean it kind
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: of made sense this way. So yeah, I don't think
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: that was a major issue. Yeah, well, I mean, is
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: there anything else to discuss about these first three games?
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: I do notice that me thrill seems to come up
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: all the time even in these games, and that's is
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: that a Tolkien invention?
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: I think? So I could be wrong, but I'm pretty
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: sure that's the case.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, I assumed. So it's just funny what tolkien esque
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: things seem to just kind of get stolen. It's like, well,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: it's been around so long, it's just part of when
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: you make fantasy stuff. You just got to use Tolkien
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: stuff and nobody gets mad and or litigates or anything
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he did caudify a lot of stuff, which I'm
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: assuming Dungeons and Dragons drew a lot from Tolkien, and
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: then I don't know much about the history Dungeons Dragons,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: but then obviously fum fantasy drew from it. That might
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: have been like a couple of layers removed, because I
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: don't know when Japan got Dungeons of Dragons and then
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: there was Dragon Quest, and I want to say there
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: was like something earlier, like hide Light or something. But yeah,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: so like all these trips kind of percolated through and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: became part of the standard thing. Because they've also got
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: dwarves and I think elves. I don't remember if elves
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: are much of a fun phasy thing or not, but
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: they are. They are in a final Fantasy one, right,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: you go to Elfheim, which is a city of elves,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: and I just confirm, Yeah, midal is talkien. It comes
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: from a couple of cindar in words put together, and
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: so that's just directly talking. I guess you didn't copyright that,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: so so yeah, so, I mean there are a lot
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: of talking esque elements to this. I mean, yeah, back
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: in the first game, you get Elfheim, you get the dwarfs,
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: and some of these are the games that are you know,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: these bearded miners and you've got you know, in the
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: first game, you've got these people. I think it was
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the town where you don't understand the language and takeet
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: thro Rosetta Stone. I don't know what they're called, but
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: you know they talk about how you know, they're descendants
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: of this long lost kingdom in the sky, and so
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you've got this like, you know, remnants of a former glory.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: You know a lot of these very Tolkienian tropes that
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: are brought in here, both as far as the direct
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: elements as well as general themes. Do we know when
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: like like sky stuff like airships and floating islands got
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: so to be like a fantasy trope because that wasn't
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: a Tolkien thing as far as I can recall, certainly
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: not in Lord of the Rings.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: No it's very much a final fantasy thing though that is,
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: like there always has to be some type of an airship,
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: such as it is in some of the games. It's
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: a I guess there's not well, yeah, I can't. I
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: can't think of one that doesn't have it. Sometimes it's
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: a little shoehorned in late game like fifteen, I think spoilers.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: You can just after the game's done, your car can
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: just fly, I think, is what happens in fifteen. But
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: your base is in an airship that belonged to the
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: ancients that nobody knows who they were. In sixteen and
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: there are some oh maybe there's not an actual airship.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: There are dragons, though I can't remember. It was a
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: weird game.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this reminds me in three Is. It's kind of
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: toying with fantasy tropes and the own series tropes at
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: the very beginning, Like you get an airship in the
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: first few minutes of the game, and then you blow
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: it up because you have to crash it into a
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: rock for some reason, because you can't fly over the
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: mountains in your airship. I guess it has an altitude
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: limit in that game. Yeah, And I find like floating islands.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: I'm a sucker for floating islands. I don't know why.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Like zeal In Corona Trigger is like my favorite part
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: of the game because urs cool floating continent and when
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: you learn, like Fazy three, like the first several hours
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: you've spend on a floating cottons like that's super cool.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: And then you find out like that was like some
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: like there's actual story meaning behind it, because like the
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: whole world's flooded, right, and it was some continent that
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: someone raised up in the sky to kind of preserve humanity.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: So you've just been in this kind of little enclave
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: the whole time.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: That's kind of the plot of East as well, which
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: is one of my favorite series. Why as some people
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: say wise, but it's it's pretty easy easy. Yeah, that
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: is a kingdom floating in this stye they've the whole
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: series is called East, but the kingdom is only in
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: like two of the games.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: I still need to go back and play those first ones.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I've started the series relatively recently. I played Eas eight, which.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Is amazing A great entry point there. I know we're
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: also on a tangent.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's true. That was kind of like an
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: anime lost but yeah, that's not fun fancy.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Well, another trope that kind of continues to well, just
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of JRPGs in general, you'll find a Massa
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Mune sword, which is I think Massamune was like a
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: legendary swordsmith in Japanese folklore. So usually one of the
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: best swords in the games that you can get is
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: Massa Mune. I remember that happens at least in four.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: It also happens in Chrono Trigger and is actually part
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: of the plot in Corona Trigger.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: But and then they get really ridiculous with it towards
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: the end with your jobs, where you can like dual
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: wheeled Masamune and Excalibur, because why not the best of
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: both worlds. Yeah, if you're gonna find darkness, you need
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: the best swords.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that I have much else to
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: say about these early games. I mean, is there anything
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: else either of you.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: I just always loved j RPGs in the way that
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: they when I was young, captured my imagination and I
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: love that. Andrew, You've been enjoying these pixel remasters, and
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna go back and play two and three now
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: after this conversation, I think I could probably get them
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: on the switch, right, I got a big plane ride
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: coming up, so I might buy that version so I
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: can get some time in on them. But yeah, I
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: love the way that they just stimulate your imagination as
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: a child and a desire for adventure in that way.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and for me, like like one of the things
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: I said earlier, like, it's very surprising to me to
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: go back and play those games and realize they are
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: as fun as they are because it doesn't feel like
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: they should be because you think, like video games have
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: developed so much since then, and it's like it's not
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: nostalgia talking like three I had a ton of fun
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: with even though I'm playing it now in twenty twenty five.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: So yeah, they're super fun to come back, go back to.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: And there's something to be said for a simple story.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: It might not be incredibly deep themes, but older games,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: especially because they didn't lay everything out for you super clearly,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: they do evoke the imagination, like you were saying, David,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: where your your imagination is filling in the gaps, Which
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: this is a little bit of a tangent, but like
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: you know, when you'd like read a book, your imagination
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: is filling in the gaps, Like reading a book is
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: an inherently collaborative experience between your imagination and the author
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: in a way that a movie isn't because it's giving
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you so much more visual information, and video games older
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: ones are similar in that regard, where you do have
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: a visual element, but it's a very basic visual element,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: and so you're imagining a lot more with the dialogue,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: how it's delivered, the character relationships, the world, and also
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: like talk about exploration and like how much I love
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: the world map in three Like there's a lot of
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: environmental storytelling that happens where like the structure of the
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: world is interesting where you're like, wait, why is this
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: city over here? And like they have like this big
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: empire on this continent, but then it's like little villages
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: over here, Why was it underwater all of a sudden?
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: What does it mean that it's back up? Like it
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: like what's going on with the floating continent? Like it's
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: like it doesn't answer all these things super clearly, which
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: makes them more interesting in a way when it's not
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: over explained.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. Well, on one hand, I enjoy
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: a deep, complicated novel. I've also as Lewis would say
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: learned to I've become old enough to enjoy fairy tales again, right,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I feel like for the same reason, you know, I
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: don't know if as a teenager, if I would have
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: enjoyed these early games as much as I do now
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: as an adult, Like, there is something that I find
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: very enjoyable about not being surrounded by story, but by
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: experiencing it, seeing it unfold around me, having that more
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: of a casual kind of experience for that simple kind
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: of story, I think that provides a different kind of
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: enchantment than in the more modern games, where everything is
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: happening around you, you know, constantly, you know, just as
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: now I mean I enjoy reading, you know, when I
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: with my kids. You know, I enjoy some of these
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: simple children's fairy tales precisely because of their simplicity, and
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: in their simplicity there's a unique kind of depth. Well,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: as we wrapped this conversation, I meant to ask you
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: as a question last time, and that's like, if somebody's
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: getting into Final Fantasy for the first time, where do
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: you think they should start. What's your recommendation, Michael, what
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: do you think a man?
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: I feel like that does depend on the taste of
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: the person. A lot of people I think would have
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: a really hard time going back to an older game,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Like I started with six, but I started in the
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: when the super and s was still like the main thing. Like,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know how easy it would be to go
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: back to that. Now is like your first unless you
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: just like that older style. If you do, you like
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: the older top down two D graphics, fairly straightforward storytelling.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I think Fambly six is an amazing starting point because,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: like I think you pointed out in like our discord,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: I think or on Twitter, one of those uh six
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: is where the series really found its footing and how
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: it wanted to deliver its story. If you prefer something
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: more modern, my instinct is fum Fancy nine. A lot
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: of people call that their favorite series. It's not my favorite,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: but it does I think, really represent what found Phantasy
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: is as a series really well. You have a lot
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: of the basic archetypes of characters and tropes. It's a
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: mostly pretty lighthearted story, but it still deals with like
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: forces of evil. It's pretty epic. It has a lot
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: of refined mechanics to it. Outside of a really annoying
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: chocobout minigame, ignore that, but in great characters like I
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: would probably say nine overall, And if you want to
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: be in cultural conversation, play seven, because everybody's played seven,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: But I think nine is a little better as a
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: starting point. Outside of that.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Well, good thoughts, David.
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I I would want to probably ask him some questions.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: You know, if I know the person, my recommendation might
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: be different. But yeah, seven, I'm probably biased just because
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: of the being there when seven came out was really
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: something else. Like I jumped up off my sofa at
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: parts of that game. I was so so happy with
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: its ability to tell such a deep story through the
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: video game medium that no one had really been able
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: to do before. I think ten is pretty accessible, although
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: it's a strange story, I think a good one for
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: people to start with. There ones like seven or ten
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: that have a really strong opening. I think that kind
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: of gets you hooked. But I do agree that nine
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: is really solid mechanically, and I like their return to
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: the kind of the fantasy roots. But I believe I
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: only played through it once when it first came out,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: so my memory of that one is not super good.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: For what it's worth. I've heard the PC version of
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: nine if you were to play it it actually if
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: you like mods, there are actually some really excellent mods
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: for Fantasy nine to make it look a lot better
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: visually that are fairly easy to set up and install,
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: but that's only if you're sort to get to that.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: The PC version of seven. Also you can replace the
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: you know, the simplistic character models with others that people
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: have made as well. My son I know has played
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: through it with some of those mods, so yeah, good point.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And also to fan Ptasy seven's credit. Playing it now,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: I played it much like a lot of the other pharmacies.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: I played it very late, like literally the year that
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: final Plasa seven remake came out, and I was also
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: surprised with that one how enjoyable it was. Even now,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: it like, there are parts where it's a little archaic,
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: because you can tell that was when they were first
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: learning how to do a three D fun fantasy. But
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: it's really well executed. The combat's fun, the story doesn't
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: get two bogs down, even though it gets unnecessarily convoluted
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: like a lot of series does at times, the story's
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: still engaging, are great, very memorable, so definitely not a
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: bad option. Also, I personally like Funazy remake and I
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: don't think that's a bad game, but it's also is
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: not the original. It's a very different game.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hoping that's included in the upcoming Steam sale
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: some hold on on. I don't feel like paying full
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: price for it, but I'd like like to check it
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: out if it's a good deal. Allright, Well, I think
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: those are some good thoughts. I am happy with what
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: we pulled out of these early games. I think it's
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: going to be the of the individual titles, probably the
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: hardest one to deal with. I think that as we
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: get into episode or not episode four that's Star Wars,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: as we get into File Macy four, I think we'll
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: have a lot more story elements to deal with. But
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: this is where we'll leave off for now. Till next time,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: God Speak. Thank you for listening or watching if you're
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: over on YouTube, if you enjoy these conversations, and I
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: welcome you to support me over at patreon dot com
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: slash Mythic Mind. Even five dollars a month will provide
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: you with all three Mythic Mind podcasts delivered early and
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: ad free into a single feed. So if you get
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: annoyed by these auto field ads. Well, that's a good
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: way to skip over that. And so that'll provide you
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: with this podcast, the main Mythic Mind podcast, where we're
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: currently doing a CS Lewis series and Mythic Mind Movies
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: and shows where we're working through a Star Wars series.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: And also I encourage you to go ahead and sign
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: up for the Elder Scrolls and Philosophy course which begins
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: next month in October. So whether your patron or not,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: you can purchase that course individually or become a Tier
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: three annual patron and you'll get everything that's included with
• 1:01:38
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• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: that begin within that yearly term. So that's patreon dot
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: com slash Mythic Mind. Whether you want to become a
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: small scale monthly subscriber to get involved in this community,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: or you want the more comprehensive package. But that's it
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: for now. If you're listening on the freebe feeds, make
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: sure you're also sub to the other two podcasts. The
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: next thing to come out from Mythic Mind will probably
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: be an introduction to till we have faces over on
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Mythic Mind. The main Mythic Mind podcast, and so I
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: will talk to you then until then. Gospie The Elder
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Scrolls in Philosophy a new course beginning in October, led
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: by doctor Andrew Snyder. I played a lot of video
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: games in my youth, perhaps more than I should have.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: But as I got older, got married, had kids, and
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: completed a PhD on the Danish philosopher Soaring Kirkey Guard,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: I almost entirely stopped playing games. However, there were certain
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: titles that stayed with me during this time, at the
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: very least in my mind. In fact, looking back, I
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: now realized that most games of my youth were not
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: entirely frivolous, but the instead served quasi literary roles, fueling
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: my imagination, intellectual curiosity, in my appreciation for wonder. Chief
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: among these titles are the mainline games of the Elder Scrolls,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: and in particular Morowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. And I know
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: that I am not alone in this, as the wild
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: success of the recent Oblivion remaster would indicate. Now, in
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: addition to teaching university courses in philosophy and religion, I've
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: also started offering independent courses to anyone who has to
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: come along with me and with the community in pursuit
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: of wisdom through primary and secondary worlds. So far, these
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: independent courses have been literature based, such as the fiction
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: and philosophy of C. S. Lewis, Life, Death and Meaning
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: with Beowulf and Boethius, The Lord of the Rings, A
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: Brief History of Ideas, and Plato's stoicism until we have Faces. However,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: I've recently been leading the Mythic Mind Fellowship into popular
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: media as well, such as movies and games, and it
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: did not take me many steps in this sti direction
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: to decide that I wanted to do something with the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Elder Scrolls. During this six week study the Philosophy of
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: the Elder Scrolls, We're going to go deep into various
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: aspects of morow and Oblivion and Skyrim to better understand
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the driving forces of the subcreated world and our movements
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: within it. Among others, We'll be asking questions like what
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: is the creation mythos of the Elder Scrolls and how
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: does this relate to primary world ideas? What are the
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: thirty six Lessons of EVEC and where do they direct us?
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: What is unique about the hero of Kavacha's particular kind
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: of heroism? What does the Oblivion Crisis reveal about the
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: nature of evil in relation to societal institutions. Why are
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: dragons so prolific in our fantastical imaginations? What unique opportunities
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: for existential exploration are made available in open world games.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Join this community as we enter Taminal with the purpose
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: of learning more about our place within our own world.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Each week will include ongoing discord conversations, at least one
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: or two asynchronous videos to watch whenever you want to,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: and live discussions which will be recorded and made available.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: If you're not able to participate, you can purchase enrollment
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: in the shop over at patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: or become a Tier three annual patron to get access
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: to all courses that begin within your yearly term. This
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: course begins in October, so go ahead and make it happen,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: and I hope to see you there.