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He Rewrote Her Choices: How a Man Architected Memory Theft · Dark Psychology: The Control Game

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: At eight fifty two in the morning on May twenty first,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, a utility lineman named April Moore pushed open
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: the back door of a house on Fenwick Lane and
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: stopped moving. On the kitchen table an uncut birthday cake
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: with candles still in chellophane, a bouquet of dried carnations
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: shedding pedals onto an open laptop, and a single wineglass
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: with a dark red ring dried into its bottom. The
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: laptop screen showed a video call application frozen. On a
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: connection screen, the cursor was still blinking, the battery read
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: four percent. More called nine one one, she had been
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: dispatched for a routine non payment disconnect. What she found
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: instead was a table set for a celebration that never happened,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and a woman who had been waiting alone since six
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: o'clock the night before. The woman's name was Connie Ford.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: She was forty four years old. She lived at the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: end of a dead end gravel road four miles west
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: of Peller, Indiana, and for eight months she had been
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: building what she believed was the most genuine connection she
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: had found since her divorce. The person on the other
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: end of that connection did not exist. What makes this
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: case worth sitting with and what kept investigators unsettled long
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: after the verdict is not the fraud itself. It is
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the precision. Someone had spent months learning exactly who Connie
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Ford was, what she feared, what she needed, and when
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: she would be alone, and then they used every single
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: piece of that information with patients that is difficult to
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: describe as anything other than deliberate. By the time Connie
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: sat down at that table on the night of May twentieth,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: she had no reason to suspect anything was wrong. That
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: is exactly how it was designed to work. Peller, Indiana
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: is the kind of town where a neighbor can tell
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: you without hesitation what time someone waters their garden. It
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: is small enough that a dead end gravel road feels
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: like privacy, and quiet enough that routine becomes identity. Connie
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Ford had lived there long enough that her routines were
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: known facts. She worked as a billing coordinator. She was
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: organized in the particular way that people who manage other
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: people's numbers tend to be precise, methodical, attentive to small discrepancies.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: On Thursday evenings, she drove to the Lutheran Church on
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Maple Street to sing with the Pellar Community Charral. In
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: her garden, she kept two tomato beds, one pepper bed,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and a shared row of lettuce and herbs. She watered
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: on Tuesday and Friday mornings. She fertilized the first Saturday
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: of every month. Her neighbor al Steck, later told investigators
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: he could set a clock by her garden routine. She
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: had been divorced. The details of that chapter of her
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: life did not come out publicly, but the fact of
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: it mattered because it meant she was navigating something genuinely difficult.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: When she joined an online dating platform called Heartline roughly
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: eight months before the night April More found that table.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: She joined in late September of twenty eighteen. The first
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: message she received from a profile called Daniel Marsh was
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: not like other first messages. It was a detailed, literary observation,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the kind of thing that suggests someone has been paying
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: attention to the same things you have. Connie printed it
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: out and put it in a folder. That detail the
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: printing the folder says something important about how this felt
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: to her. It was not casual, It was worth keeping.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Daniel Marsh's profile described a civil engineer based in Indianapolis.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: His photograph showed a trim, dark haired man in his
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: early fifties standing on a boat dock. He appeared thoughtful,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: He appeared real. The photograph had been taken from a
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: public linked profile belonging to a man in Ohio who
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: had no idea his image was being used. The man
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: writing as Daniel Marsh was Harvey Weaver, fifty one years old,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: renting a room in Anderson, Indiana, roughly forty miles from Peller.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: He was not a civil engineer. He did not own
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a boat. He had intermittent work as a project estimator.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: What he did have, according to evidence later presented a trial,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: was a system. In December of two thousand eighteen, about
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: three months into the correspondence, Connie received a physical card
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: in the mail. It had been sent from an Indianapolis
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: zip code. The handwriting said he had not felt this
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: way in a long time. It said he was aware
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: it was too early to say so. It said he
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: was saying it anyway. She kept that too. What Connie
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: did not know was that the card had never passed
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: through Weaver's hands directly. He had sent a seal to
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: a woman named Sandra an Indianapolis contact who forwarded it
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: as a small favor. According to investigators, Sandra Polque had
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: no knowledge of what she was participating in. By spring
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, Connie Ford had been talking to Daniel
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Marsh for the better part of a year. She had
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: told him about choir, about her garden, about her mother,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: about the bank that kept updating its mobile app in
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: ways she found frustrating, about the street where she learned
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: to ride a bike. She told him these things the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: way anyone tells someone they trust, not all at once,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: not as a list, but woven through ordinary conversation, over
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: ordinary months. Every word was being written down. The first
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: sign that something was wrong came in March of twenty nineteen,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: not a dramatic sign, a small one, easy to dismiss.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Connie had offered to text Daniel her home address so
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: he could send her something. Declined. He said he was
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: old fashioned about privacy. She found that charming. Two days
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: later he called her while she was driving home from
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: choir practice. The conversation was easy, warm until he said
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: it you must be on your way home from singing.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: He named Maple Street, the street where the Lutheran Church stood.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: The street she had never given him. Connie, let it pass.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: People remember things. He was attentive. She had probably mentioned
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: the church at some point, she told herself, and simply forgot.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: That is exactly the kind of explanation a person reaches
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: for when someone they trust says something they shouldn't know.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: But she had not mentioned the church, not once. That
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: phone call was the first thread to pull, and it
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: would take another two months before anyone pulled it. In
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: April of twenty nineteen, Connie's debit card was declined at
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: a gas station on Route nine. She checked her balance
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: and found two transfers had not made. Each one was
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: under two hundred dollars. Six days separated them. Together, they
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: came to three hundred twelve dollars, moved to an account
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: she did not recognize from a device she did not own.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: She called her bank. She called Daniel. He was concerned,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: He was careful. He told her she needed to be
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: more vigilant about where she used her card. He asked
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: whether she had done any banking on public Wi Fi recently.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: She had not, but she appreciated that he was thinking
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: of her safety. She appreciated that he cared enough to
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: ask the bank reversed both charges within the week. No
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: permanent loss. The account was flagged, and that flag eventually
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: reached a fraud unit, and that fraud unit eventually reached
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Peller PD. What the bank's investigative notes would later show
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: was this, The access had not come through any technical breach.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: No one had cracked a firewall, no one had installed anything.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: The answers to Kanie's security questions, her bank's name, her
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: mother's maiden name, the street where she learned to ride
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: a bike had been provided correctly from the outside by
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: someone who already knew them. Every one of those answers
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: had surfaced in conversation with Daniel marsh The bank's name
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: came up when she complained about the mobile app update.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Her mother's maiden name came up during a discussion about
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: family history. The childhood street came up during a memory
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: about learning to ride a bike one summer afternoon. Not
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: a list, not an interrogation, months of ordinary conversation, and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Weaver had been logging each answer as it arrived. Detective
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Eric Zimmerman of Peller PD had been on the force
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: for nineteen years. When the fraud flag crossed his desk.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: He pulled the account records, traced the device and found
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: something that changed the shape of the case entirely. Harvey
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Weaver's laptop contained a shared document for Inside that folder
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: were three tabs. Each tab was color coded. Each tab
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: represented a woman. Connie Ford was the blue tab. Her
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: tab contained a contact timeline, a log of every detail
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: she had disclosed, a column for what she wanted, a
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: column for what she feared, and a column labeled in
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Weaver's own formatting leverage. The leverage column for the blue
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: tab listed her ex husband's name, her mother's name, her bank,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and one more entry, garden schedule alone. Two's fry. A. M.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Zimmerman would later label what he found on that laptop
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: as evidence of two operational phases. The first he called
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the foundation phase, the months of building trust, accumulating detail,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: constructing a person Connie would believe incompletely. The second he
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: called the minimization phase, the moment Weaver began to test
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the edges of what he had built, charding with those
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: two small transfers, each under the reporting threshold six days apart.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: There is something about that Garden's schedule entry that sits
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: differently from the rest the financial data. The bank name,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: the security answers. Those fit a clear pattern. They unlock accounts,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: but a woman's schedule the hours she is alone in
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: her yard four miles down a dead end gravel rope.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Zimmerman declined to specify in public case notes what Weaver
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: intended to do with that information. He never answered that
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: question publicly. The record does not answer it either. Connie
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: was not the only one. When Zimmerman's team pulled the
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: full scope of Weaver's activity, The shape of what they
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: found was not a single relationship. It was an operation
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: running across three cities simultaneously. In Kokomo, forty seven miles
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: from Peller, a woman named Brenda Sutton had matched a
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: profile called Kevin Aldrich. Brenda was thirty nine. In February
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, two months before Connie's card was declined,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: an unauthorized charge appeared on Brenda's credit card. She reported it.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: In Lafayette, sixty miles in the other direction, a woman
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: named Pam Novak had matched a profile called Warren Slade.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Pam was fifty. In March of two thy nineteen, she
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: transferred six hundred dollars to a fraudulent account after Slade
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: provided her with what appeared to be legitimate routing information.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: On the night of May twenty first, twenty nineteen. The
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: same night April More found an uncut birthday cake and
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a dying laptop on a kitchen table in Pellar, Weaver's
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: device logs showed three simultaneous active sessions Daniel marsh Kevin Aldrich,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Warren Slade, all open at once. The last session on
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Connie's laptop was logged at eleven forty one seven pm.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Three windows open on one screen, Three women in three cities,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: each one believing she had found someone who saw her clearly.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: There had been a fourth in twenty fifteen, four years
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: before any of this reached a court room, A woman
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: named Cheryl Vance in Elwood had matched the Warren Slade
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: profile on Heartline. She corresponded with Slade for three months.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Then something shifted. She could not name it precisely. She
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: described it later as hearing a word mispronounced in a
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: way the speaker thought was correct, a tone that didn't
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: match the sentence in ease with her, details that felt
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: less like attention and more like inventory. She stopped. She
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: blocked the profile. She did not go to police. She
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: had no financial loss. She had no crime to report.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: She moved on. Four years later, when Weaver's arrest appeared
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: in the Anderson Paper, Cheryl Vance called Peller p d.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Within six days, she identified Weaver from his photograph without hesitation.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: The message logs she had saved became People's Exhibit forty
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: one at trial. Her instinct had been correct the whole time.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: She simply had no framework in twenty fifteen for what
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: she was sensing. Now, picture what that instinct had to
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: work against. Picture a man who declined to receive Connie's
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: home address, performing privacy, performing restraint, while simultaneously logging that
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: her garden was unattended on Tuesday and Friday mornings. A
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: man who expressed concern about her online security while using
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: her own disclosed answers to access her account. A man
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: who sent a handwritten card confessing feelings he was aware
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: it was too early to share using an intermediary, so
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the postmark would read Indianapolis. Every gesture of intimacy was constructed,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: every expression of care was operational. But here is the
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: thing that recontextualizes everything that came before it. The detail
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: that looks different once you know what Weaver's laptop contained.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: When Connie printed that first message from Daniel Marsh and
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: put it in a folder. She was doing what a
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: person does when something feels worth keeping. She was marking
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the beginning of something. She was treating the correspondence as
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: a record of a real relationship forming in real time.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Weaver was doing exactly the same thing for exactly the
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: opposite reason. She was building a memory. He was building
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: a file. The trial lasted several days. The jury deliberated
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: six hours. They returned guilty verdicts on all counts, three
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: charges of wire fraud, three charges of identity fact one
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: charge of computer fraud. Harvey Weaver was arraigned in Fulton
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: County in the fall of twenty nineteen. Sentencing was scheduled
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: for January of twenty twenty. The defense had character the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: transfers as misunderstandings. The jury did not agree. The second
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: bottle of wine was never opened. Detective Eric Zimmerman noted
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: that detail in his case file without elaboration. Connie Ford
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: had bought two bottles for the evening. She expected Daniel
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Marsh to appear on her screen. She opened one. She
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: sat at the kitchen table through the night, waiting. By morning,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: she was gone and the second bottle stood exactly where
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: she had placed it. Zimmerman located her at work the
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: following day. She had not called anyone. She had simply
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: gotten up from the table, gotten dressed, and gone. In.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: The charges filed against Harvey Weaver covered what the evidence
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: could prove, three counts of wire fraud, three counts of
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: identity theft, one count of computer fraud. The wire fraud
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: counts corresponded to the three women whose financial information he
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: had accessed or whose accounts he had touched. Brenda Sutton
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: in Kocomo, whose credit card showed an unauthorized charge in
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: February of two thousand nineteen, Pam Novak in Lafayette, who
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: transferred six hundred dollars to a fraudulent account in March
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen. And Connie Ford in Peller, whose
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: bank reversed two transfers totaling three hundred twelve dollars test
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: amounts each under two hundred spaced six days apart, drawn
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: from a device she did not own. Connie's bank made
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: her hold the money came back. What the charges could
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: not quantify was the eight months of careful, methodical dismantling
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: that preceded the fraud, The foundation phase, as Zimmermann labeled it,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the phase in which Weaver had done nothing technically illegal.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: He had asked questions, he had listened, he had logged.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: The laptop contained a shared document folder organized into three
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: color coded tabs, one per woman. Each tab carried a
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: contact time line, a log of disclosed details, a column
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: for what she wanted, and a column for what she feared.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: The column at the far right was labeled leverage. Connie
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Ford was the blue tab. Her leverage column listed her
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: ex husband's name, her mother's name, her bank, and her
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: gardens schedule, specifically that she was alone at the house
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: on Tuesday and Friday mornings. Zimmermann declined to specify in
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: public case notes what Weaver intended to do with that
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: last entry. The record does not say the entry is there.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Sheryl Vance had encountered Warren Slade, one of Weaver's profiles,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: four years earlier. In two thousand fifteen, she stopped communicating
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: after three months. She blocked the profile. She told no
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: one because she had nothing concrete to report, only a
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: feeling she could not name at the time, something like
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: hearing a word mispronounced in a way the speaker believed
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: was correct. She had simply walked away. When Weaver's or
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: rest appeared in the Anderson Paper six days after he
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: was taken in, Cheryl Vance called Peller p D. She
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: identified him from the photograph without hesitation. Her message logs
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: from two thy fifteen became People's Exhibit forty one at trial.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Her instinct had been right the whole time. She had
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: simply had no language for what she was sensing. That
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: is perhaps the most difficult thing this case leaves behind.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Means not the fraud, not the logistics of how one
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: man maintained three simultaneous relationships across three cities while logging
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: leverage in a color coded spreadsheet. The most difficult thing
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: is the gap between what Connie and Brenda and Pam
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: and Cheryl each experienced a specific private feeling that something
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: was slightly wrong, but and the moment any of them
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: would have had enough to act on it. Weaver was
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: arraigned in Fulton County in the fall of two thousand nineteen.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: The jury deliberated six hours. They returned guilty verdicts on
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: all counts. Sentencing was scheduled for January of twenty twenty.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: No sentencing result is part of the public record reviewed here.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: There were three confirmed victims and one woman who got
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: out early enough that the law could not count her
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: as one. All four of them had felt something, All
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: four of them had been right. Connie Ford still lives
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: in Pellar. According to public records available at the time
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of this reporting, she sang with the Pellar community Churale
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: on Thursday nights. She kept her garden on Fenwick Lane,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: two tomato beds, one pepper bed, one for lettuce and herbs.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: She watered on Tuesday and Friday mornings. She kept the routine,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: She kept the life. The birthday cake was never cut,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: the laptop battery finally died, the flowers went dry. But
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the second bottle of wine, the one she never opened,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: is the image that stays. It was not pessimism, It
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: was not defeat. It was a woman who had prepared
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: for something real, who had held herself ready for it,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and who, when it did not come, simply got up
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: the next morning and went to work. That kind of
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: steadiness is not a small thing. This show is made
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: by Oboe Media,