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First Draft Pitfalls—5 Things for Writers to Watch for · Reality Writes

• 0:05
  Ellie Alexander: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Reality Writes.
• 0:09
  Ellie Alexander: I am author Ellie Alexander.
• 0:11
  Ellie Alexander: This is the podcast where we talk about all things bookish, writer-ish, reader-ish.
• 0:16
  Ellie Alexander: And uh I'm here with the tech guy, as always.
• 0:20
  Tech Guy: Hello, hello, hello.
• 0:22
  Tech Guy: Uh, what are we talking about today?
• 0:25
  Ellie Alexander: Today we are gonna talk about five things that really trip up new writers, especially in a first draft.
• 0:35
  Tech Guy: Oh, okay.
• 0:36
  Tech Guy: So these are five things new writers should watch out for when they're creating the first draft of their book.
• 0:43
  Tech Guy: Is this mystery specific or is this any this is pretty global, I would say.
• 0:49
  Ellie Alexander: Okay.
• 0:49
  Ellie Alexander: Um, and this is after you've written a first draft.
• 0:51
  Ellie Alexander: So you you've finished a book.
• 0:53
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 0:54
  Ellie Alexander: And now you're going through it and you're doing the first pass.
• 0:58
  Ellie Alexander: Um, and these are all things that I have had to learn over time myself and I've improved on, obviously, over the course of 15 years.
• 1:07
  Ellie Alexander: And when I'm teaching and coaching writing students, I see these patterns time and time and again.
• 1:15
  Ellie Alexander: And um I notice a lot of writers, you get so excited because you've finished a first draft, which is giant.
• 1:22
  Ellie Alexander: It's monumental.
• 1:23
  Ellie Alexander: Monumental.
• 1:24
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 1:24
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 1:24
  Ellie Alexander: I mean, seriously, yeah.
• 1:27
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 1:27
  Ellie Alexander: You've written a book, like you should celebrate, you should do all the things.
• 1:31
  Ellie Alexander: But what tends to happen is you then are just like, I gotta send it out in the world.
• 1:36
  Ellie Alexander: Like it's ready.
• 1:37
  Ellie Alexander: I finished a book.
• 1:38
  Ellie Alexander: Go, go, go, go, go.
• 1:39
  Ellie Alexander: And books and writing take time and they take distance.
• 1:44
  Ellie Alexander: And you have to sort of step out of yourself and the story to be able to come back in and go, okay, that was great.
• 1:51
  Ellie Alexander: I did it.
• 1:52
  Ellie Alexander: Now we need to fix it.
• 1:54
  Ellie Alexander: So these are five things that I see consistently time and time again when I'm coaching writers.
• 2:01
  Tech Guy: Interesting.
• 2:02
  Tech Guy: All right.
• 2:03
  Tech Guy: Um I'm very curious to hear where these are because um this is like I I I would say that 99% of the time when it comes to episodes of Reality Writes, like we'll have a big discussion and plan out episodes and like really, you know, dive deep on topics.
• 2:21
  Tech Guy: But when we get into these very writer-focused topics, I'm obviously a lay person.
• 2:28
  Tech Guy: Like I don't know.
• 2:28
  Tech Guy: I I've picked up a thing or two over the years, just you know, uh being with you, but um, but this is this is your show.
• 2:37
  Tech Guy: So it's gonna be I'm gonna learn.
• 2:40
  Tech Guy: So let's hit it.
• 2:41
  Tech Guy: What's number one?
• 2:41
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, you're gonna um you're gonna learn, but also right before I get to number one, I I hope for the darlings out there that are readers, it'll be interesting for you too, because you might, as we're going through this list, pick up on books maybe that you've read that you're like, ooh, actually, yeah, I noticed this, or you know, things that might pull you out of a story, let's say.
• 3:00
  Ellie Alexander: And also just to be aware of like all those layers that go into creating a finished book.
• 3:07
  Ellie Alexander: It it's not usually that you I don't know any single writer that has finished a first draft and the book is done.
• 3:13
  Ellie Alexander: Like it just doesn't happen.
• 3:16
  Tech Guy: Yeah, I know totally.
• 3:17
  Tech Guy: And and those are both very good points and and exactly where I'm coming from because I am not a writer.
• 3:22
  Tech Guy: So I am very interested because I'm I'm as we go through these five things, I'm gonna be thinking about all the books I've read and trying to think, well, did I see any of that in any of those books?
• 3:33
  Tech Guy: And then yes, the other piece, like being married to you and and seeing the progression of your writing over the years and everything, that is, I would say, the number one thing that readers don't understand or don't fully comprehend, I would say, because I I think a lot of people clearly know that like writing a book takes more than just writing that first draft and then putting it out in the world.
• 3:57
  Tech Guy: But what they don't really fully comprehend is like the the revs of the book, right?
• 4:04
  Tech Guy: Like the the the the layering, the editing, all of the things that go into it.
• 4:09
  Tech Guy: And then then it goes to the publisher or an editor, and then it comes back and you do it all over again.
• 4:16
  Ellie Alexander: Two or three times.
• 4:17
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 4:17
  Ellie Alexander: Yes, it's true.
• 4:19
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 4:20
  Tech Guy: So this is uh definitely a peak behind the curtain as well.
• 4:24
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 4:25
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 4:25
  Ellie Alexander: And if you're some if you're a darling that's new to writing or you're, you know, working on a first book or just getting started in the process, hopefully like you take a few notes on this, and it's something that will help you when you're going through your first draft, too.
• 4:40
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Ellie Alexander: Okay.
• 4:41
  Ellie Alexander: So without further ado, we will get to number one.
• 4:45
  Ellie Alexander: I would say the number one thing that I see the most often is that scenes are taking place in a vacuum.
• 4:55
  Tech Guy: Ooh, what does that mean?
• 4:57
  Ellie Alexander: So you have characters and they're maybe talking to each other.
• 5:03
  Ellie Alexander: Um, something's happening, but this scene could be taking place on Mars or it could be taking place in North Dakota.
• 5:12
  Ellie Alexander: There's there's nothing else happening in the world around the story.
• 5:17
  Ellie Alexander: And this tends to happen a lot with mystery writers because mysteries are plot-driven, right?
• 5:22
  Ellie Alexander: So we're and when I teach, you know, I talk to writers all the time about the fact that, like, okay, we're starting with a body, and then we need suspects, and we need these twists and turns and red herrings.
• 5:32
  Ellie Alexander: So that is all true.
• 5:33
  Ellie Alexander: And that's important that you get down in your first draft.
• 5:36
  Ellie Alexander: But as you're coming back to a manuscript with fresh eyes, then it's time to start thinking about like, oh, what is happening in the world around this story?
• 5:46
  Ellie Alexander: It cannot take place in a vacuum because it's not a fun experience for a reader.
• 5:54
  Ellie Alexander: Have you ever Yeah, go ahead.
• 5:57
  Tech Guy: Oh, I was just gonna say, is that where the phrase set the scene comes from?
• 6:02
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:03
  Ellie Alexander: And that makes sense.
• 6:04
  Ellie Alexander: You've had an experience.
• 6:06
  Ellie Alexander: I know I've had an experience of reading even finished books where I'm like, wait, where are we?
• 6:10
  Ellie Alexander: Like, whose POV are we in?
• 6:12
  Ellie Alexander: Like, you know, like if if you're getting confused as a reader, that means I have not done my job correctly as a writer by creating that world that we are anchoring this story in.
• 6:24
  Tech Guy: Yeah, I have had that happen.
• 6:27
  Tech Guy: Uh names of the books aren't important, but um where in a book there are, let's say, like a l there's like a quick sequence of events happening, but they're taking place in different places.
• 6:43
  Tech Guy: Right.
• 6:44
  Tech Guy: You know, maybe the characters are moving through different, you know, let's say three different buildings, and the author, the author sees all of this in their head, but it doesn't make it down onto the page so that you you are reading and you're like, well, wait, but they were just up on the second floor and now the way now they're on the street.
• 7:03
  Tech Guy: How did they get out on the street?
• 7:04
  Tech Guy: Like, right, you know, you just and it takes you out of the story.
• 7:07
  Tech Guy: It like it makes you stop and it's it's jarring.
• 7:12
  Tech Guy: It really kind of yeah.
• 7:15
  Ellie Alexander: And it's so fixable and one of those things that once you know it.
• 7:18
  Ellie Alexander: So my advice when I'm coaching new writers is like, okay, now that you have that draft, as you're reading through it a second time, like make sure that you know and you're showing the reader where we are, you know.
• 7:32
  Ellie Alexander: And if you're moving to a room, if we're suddenly outside in the cold, it needs to stay cold.
• 7:37
  Ellie Alexander: Uh, you can't step outside and it's a hundred degrees when it was just negative two below, or you know, all of those things that are gonna drag you as the reader out of the story.
• 7:46
  Ellie Alexander: Because that's a point when a lot of readers might just stop reading.
• 7:51
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 7:51
  Tech Guy: DNF.
• 7:53
  Ellie Alexander: Oof.
• 7:54
  Ellie Alexander: Could happen.
• 7:55
  Ellie Alexander: I'm just saying.
• 7:56
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 7:56
  Ellie Alexander: Okay.
• 7:56
  Ellie Alexander: So number one is scenes that are just happening in a vacuum.
• 8:02
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 8:02
  Ellie Alexander: Number two, this is a big one.
• 8:05
  Ellie Alexander: Too many characters.
• 8:09
  Tech Guy: Oh.
• 8:09
  Tech Guy: Oh, now this one I'm very familiar with.
• 8:12
  Ellie Alexander: I'm speaking your language.
• 8:15
  Tech Guy: Very familiar with.
• 8:15
  Tech Guy: And you know, darling you know, and I'm not again, I'm not gonna say it, but you know that I read a book recently where this was a massive, massive problem, in my opinion.
• 8:28
  Tech Guy: It was just like, not only were there too many characters, but they uh several of them had very similar names.
• 8:34
  Tech Guy: And it was, I'd go pages thinking that the character was referring to another character, but then realizing, oh, wait, he's been talking about this other woman this whole time.
• 8:46
  Tech Guy: And I'd just be like, oh yeah.
• 8:50
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 8:50
  Ellie Alexander: And again, this this kind of plays to the same um concept as, you know, having a scene that's happening in a vacuum where we don't know where we are in space and time and nothing is grounded in reality.
• 9:01
  Ellie Alexander: And by reality, like even in a sci-fi or fictional world, you still have to know where you are where you are.
• 9:09
  Ellie Alexander: That's why I'm saying, like, if it's Mars or some made-up planet or whatever.
• 9:12
  Ellie Alexander: Um, the upside down, like you need to know where you are.
• 9:15
  Ellie Alexander: Too many characters.
• 9:18
  Ellie Alexander: You as the author might have a good sense of who all these characters are, but characters need to A, be able to engage and interact with each other.
• 9:28
  Ellie Alexander: And especially in a mystery, this is unique to the mystery, more so than other genres, they also have to move the plot forward.
• 9:36
  Ellie Alexander: So in a mystery, let's say if you have 17 suspects, no one is retaining all of those suspects.
• 9:42
  Ellie Alexander: It's too much.
• 9:44
  Ellie Alexander: And I think sometimes it's too much.
• 9:47
  Ellie Alexander: I think sometimes it's a crutch for new writers because it's like, oh, okay, I'll I'll throw this person in because then they're also suspicious, but it doesn't work.
• 9:55
  Ellie Alexander: And a lot of times what I see in a mystery is someone who comes in at the end, and we've seen this in shows that we watched.
• 10:04
  Ellie Alexander: I know what you're gonna say to bring somebody in who we haven't met for let's say the book is 300 pages, and suddenly at page 279, you're introducing someone and they end up being the killer.
• 10:17
  Ellie Alexander: No, absolutely not.
• 10:19
  Ellie Alexander: Because in mystery, you darlings get the same opportunity to solve the book as the sleuth.
• 10:24
  Ellie Alexander: So you have to play fair.
• 10:26
  Tech Guy: Yeah, it's like it was the guy that changed his oil.
• 10:29
  Tech Guy: And it's like, wait, what?
• 10:31
  Tech Guy: Like, where did that guy come from?
• 10:33
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 10:34
  Ellie Alexander: Exactly.
• 10:34
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 10:35
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 10:37
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 10:37
  Ellie Alexander: And especially when you're um, if you're working on a series, I talk a lot about this in my course, and when I'm coaching students, you really need to do a slow build of the secondary cast of characters.
• 10:49
  Ellie Alexander: Those characters are going to continue to grow and expand in time, but they don't all need to be in the first book.
• 10:55
  Ellie Alexander: Um, and so really thinking about like, what are these characters doing to propel the story forward?
• 11:01
  Ellie Alexander: How are they engaging with each other?
• 11:03
  Ellie Alexander: How are how are they creating conflict and tension?
• 11:06
  Ellie Alexander: Um, but not 47 characters in the novel.
• 11:10
  Ellie Alexander: It's too many.
• 11:11
  Tech Guy: Right.
• 11:12
  Tech Guy: Well, and they don't all need to be included in the first or introduced in the first book.
• 11:17
  Tech Guy: And and is it fair to say then too, they don't all need to be in every subsequent book?
• 11:24
  Ellie Alexander: Absolutely.
• 11:25
  Ellie Alexander: Right.
• 11:25
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Ellie Alexander: Especially like if we think of Bake Shop, for example, because the Bake Shop has grown over time, of course.
• 11:30
  Ellie Alexander: And so we'll all have multiple books where you might not see one of the secondary characters and then they find their way back in, just like, you know, maybe they're off on vacation or they're working at a different spot.
• 11:40
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 11:41
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 11:42
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 11:42
  Tech Guy: Okay, that makes sense.
• 11:44
  Ellie Alexander: Number three.
• 11:45
  Ellie Alexander: You can't see my hands if you were watching this, darling.
• 11:48
  Ellie Alexander: Sorry.
• 11:49
  Ellie Alexander: Uh number three is info dumping.
• 11:53
  Tech Guy: Info dumping.
• 11:54
  Tech Guy: Ooh.
• 11:55
  Tech Guy: That sounds bad.
• 11:57
  Ellie Alexander: It's bad.
• 11:58
  Ellie Alexander: It's bad.
• 11:59
  Ellie Alexander: It's easy to do.
• 12:00
  Ellie Alexander: Um, and it's something that happens a lot when you're new to writing because you have all this information in your head about the character or the story or the idea, and you want to just sort of vomit it on the page to start.
• 12:12
  Ellie Alexander: Um, so this is where, you know, instead of showing us, you're just telling us a lot.
• 12:17
  Ellie Alexander: It's like, okay, this person is this and they're that and they're this, and la la la la la la la.
• 12:22
  Ellie Alexander: And we're getting backstory about someone's second grandmother twice removed and what happened at her afternoon tea that has nothing to do with the current plot.
• 12:34
  Ellie Alexander: Maybe that is essential later on to some other thing, but finding way ways to taper the information that you're sharing about a character, because that adds tension.
• 12:46
  Ellie Alexander: If you've if you're peppering in these little Easter eggs early on, and then we're slowly learning.
• 12:52
  Ellie Alexander: But if it's all front-loaded, it doesn't matter.
• 12:56
  Ellie Alexander: And then we as the reader aren't going to be connected to this character because we don't really know them short of just kind of this word vomit on the page, for lack of a better word.
• 13:04
  Ellie Alexander: Sorry.
• 13:05
  Tech Guy: Right.
• 13:05
  Tech Guy: Well, and if you learn every absolutely everything about a character in the first like 50 pages by page 250, there's no way you remember that.
• 13:15
  Tech Guy: I mean, you know what, what would like be the primary cause for info dumping?
• 13:24
  Tech Guy: Is it like a is it a word count thing?
• 13:26
  Tech Guy: Like what like for including information that isn't relevant to the plot, for example, like you said second grandmother twice removed or whatever, or second cousin twice removed.
• 13:35
  Tech Guy: Like what would what would cause that?
• 13:40
  Ellie Alexander: I think because um, when you're first starting a novel, and this is something that I talk a lot about, you want to know more than you need to know about your character.
• 13:49
  Ellie Alexander: But you need to know that it's the writer, the reader doesn't need to know everything up front.
• 13:54
  Ellie Alexander: And so a lot of times the process is that you've created all of these backstories and arcs and connections, and you just lay them all out on the page for us, and then there's no mystery to it because we're seeing it all.
• 14:09
  Ellie Alexander: Like play your cards a little bit closer to the chest, let those build.
• 14:14
  Tech Guy: Right, right.
• 14:15
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 14:15
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 14:18
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 14:19
  Tech Guy: All right.
• 14:20
  Tech Guy: So that's number three.
• 14:21
  Tech Guy: What's number four?
• 14:24
  Ellie Alexander: Number four is no emotional arc for your main character.
• 14:31
  Tech Guy: Oh.
• 14:32
  Ellie Alexander: Mm-hmm.
• 14:32
  Ellie Alexander: So we wanna we wanna see ourselves on the page or we want to learn something about a character.
• 14:40
  Ellie Alexander: We need to see a character grow and evolve and change and struggle.
• 14:47
  Ellie Alexander: And um, especially in the mystery genre, one thing I see often with new writers is like, okay, so this horrific thing has happened.
• 14:57
  Ellie Alexander: Your character has stumbled upon a dead body, and they're just immediately solving the crime.
• 15:03
  Ellie Alexander: Well, wait a minute, hold up.
• 15:05
  Ellie Alexander: Like, what is your emotional response to finding a dead body?
• 15:10
  Ellie Alexander: I don't think you're just gonna be like, okay, it's me.
• 15:13
  Ellie Alexander: I'm ready to go.
• 15:14
  Ellie Alexander: Let me get my pen.
• 15:15
  Ellie Alexander: Um, so making sure that you're building an authentic emotional arc throughout the story, not just in response to the to finding the body or, you know, suddenly being confronted by a killer and like fearful of your life, but also like what other things are going on in their world in their, are they, you know, looking for love?
• 15:39
  Ellie Alexander: Are they in a breakup?
• 15:41
  Ellie Alexander: Do they have family issues and resentments?
• 15:44
  Ellie Alexander: You're not dumping this all at the beginning.
• 15:46
  Ellie Alexander: This isn't the info dumping.
• 15:47
  Ellie Alexander: You're taking all of that and you're layering it in as you go.
• 15:52
  Tech Guy: That's so interesting.
• 15:53
  Tech Guy: And and actually very timely because just the other night, and this I think is one way that illustrates where books are, you know, probably have an advantage over like TV or movies, in that, you know, TV or movies are constrained by time.
• 16:08
  Tech Guy: But uh, we just had a discussion about this after we watched a mystery.
• 16:12
  Tech Guy: Uh, I can't remember it as a BBC mystery or whatever.
• 16:15
  Tech Guy: It's not important.
• 16:16
  Tech Guy: But I said the something that is common in every crime show, in every mystery that we murder mystery that we watch is somebody is murdered, and then the investigator goes to that person's family or significant other and is like, we're sorry, this person's been murdered.
• 16:35
  Tech Guy: And they're like, oh no.
• 16:36
  Tech Guy: And then like cut to the next scene and they're like, okay.
• 16:40
  Tech Guy: And they're just calm, cool, and collected, just providing all this information to the investigator, even trying to help solve the crime in some way.
• 16:51
  Tech Guy: Like they're not collapsed on the on the floor in a pool of their own tears.
• 16:56
  Tech Guy: Like they're just they're going about business as usual.
• 16:59
  Tech Guy: So I imagine that's what you're talking about, right?
• 17:03
  Tech Guy: It's like having a more realistic like arc in terms of like on the page.
• 17:08
  Tech Guy: I feel like as a writer, you have uh more opportunity or more leeway to describe that and to take the reader through that um than TV and film producers do, because you know, you can only get so much done in a 60-minute uh uh mystery, which is usually 42 minutes to account for advertising.
• 17:29
  Ellie Alexander: So yeah, exactly.
• 17:31
  Ellie Alexander: No, you've nailed it completely.
• 17:33
  Ellie Alexander: And that's really what I think a lot of new writers don't see in their first draft, which is why when you're going back to it for a second or third time, being aware of these few things can really help where you're like, oh, wait, is my character responding to the fact that there's a dead body like in the middle of her bake shop?
• 17:51
  Ellie Alexander: How would I feel?
• 17:52
  Ellie Alexander: How would I respond?
• 17:54
  Ellie Alexander: And it doesn't matter if the response doesn't match, you know, what readers might think.
• 18:00
  Ellie Alexander: Maybe they have a completely bizarre reaction to it.
• 18:03
  Ellie Alexander: Maybe they're happy, you know, like I don't know.
• 18:05
  Ellie Alexander: Like it doesn't matter what the what the emotional reaction is, but there needs to be an emotional arc and a thread that goes throughout it.
• 18:13
  Ellie Alexander: And then also, how does that continue?
• 18:16
  Ellie Alexander: How do you follow that line through?
• 18:17
  Ellie Alexander: You know, like, okay, halfway through the book, are they like feeling a little more um motivated and determined because they're personally invested now?
• 18:28
  Ellie Alexander: And how is that rippling out to their other relationships?
• 18:31
  Ellie Alexander: So making sure you have a clear sense of the emotional layer of the book is so important.
• 18:39
  Tech Guy: Definitely.
• 18:39
  Tech Guy: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:40
  Tech Guy: That that that is uh very relatable.
• 18:44
  Tech Guy: It hopefully they're not happy.
• 18:47
  Tech Guy: Um, because be like another dead body?
• 18:49
  Tech Guy: Yes.
• 18:50
  Ellie Alexander: Yes, I don't know.
• 18:50
  Ellie Alexander: Maybe they're the secret serial killer, we don't know.
• 18:53
  Tech Guy: Like it could be little dexter action, yeah.
• 18:57
  Ellie Alexander: A little dexter action, or they're baking something special in the pie.
• 19:01
  Ellie Alexander: I don't know.
• 19:01
  Tech Guy: Like well, could be, yeah, it could be, but at least it'd be there, even if they were happy.
• 19:08
  Tech Guy: The arc would be there.
• 19:09
  Tech Guy: Yeah, okay.
• 19:10
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 19:12
  Ellie Alexander: Or maybe they're furious and they're like, How dare you mess up my pristine kitchen?
• 19:16
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Tech Guy: Totally.
• 19:19
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Tech Guy: All right.
• 19:21
  Tech Guy: Uh that was four.
• 19:22
  Tech Guy: Well, that brings us to number five.
• 19:24
  Ellie Alexander: Number five.
• 19:25
  Ellie Alexander: Last but certainly not least is stilted dialogue or dialogue that does not feel authentic.
• 19:34
  Tech Guy: Oh, interesting.
• 19:35
  Ellie Alexander: This one is it's a tough one for new writers, and it's something that um it took me a while and lots of practice and um lots of help from my mentor teachers back in the day to get right.
• 19:48
  Ellie Alexander: First of all, dialogue also needs to move the story forward.
• 19:54
  Ellie Alexander: In a book, we don't need, hi tech guy, how are you today?
• 19:59
  Ellie Alexander: I'm fine.
• 20:00
  Ellie Alexander: How are you?
• 20:01
  Ellie Alexander: Oh, tech guy, hi.
• 20:02
  Ellie Alexander: We don't one one crutch that I see a lot is using a character's name over and over.
• 20:09
  Ellie Alexander: And sometimes like a first and a last name.
• 20:11
  Ellie Alexander: Oh, I got you again.
• 20:12
  Ellie Alexander: Yes, right.
• 20:13
  Tech Guy: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:14
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:16
  Tech Guy: Definitely.
• 20:16
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Tech Guy: I I think I just read you an example of a book I was reading where the character's name was used like seven times on the same page.
• 20:24
  Tech Guy: And I was like, I know that it's Janice.
• 20:27
  Ellie Alexander: Like, I just like it, it's Janice.
• 20:29
  Ellie Alexander: Don't tell me again, right?
• 20:31
  Ellie Alexander: And we don't talk like that in real life.
• 20:33
  Ellie Alexander: Um I mean, maybe we do.
• 20:35
  Ellie Alexander: I I don't tend to be like, and so um, so you're just as a writer, that's an area to improve because the reader's gonna pick up on that.
• 20:47
  Ellie Alexander: Um, and also what are we learning from the dialogue?
• 20:51
  Ellie Alexander: And dialogue, like going back to our first one where a scene just happens in a vacuum.
• 20:57
  Ellie Alexander: Dialogue shouldn't happen in a vacuum either.
• 20:59
  Ellie Alexander: We don't you can't see me, but like I'm pretending that I'm just like have my hands folded in front of me and I'm staring straight at the tech guy.
• 21:07
  Ellie Alexander: We don't just talk back and forth at each other, right?
• 21:10
  Ellie Alexander: This happens a lot in a first draft of writing.
• 21:14
  Ellie Alexander: It's just like he said, she said, he said, she said, that's great for a first draft.
• 21:18
  Ellie Alexander: In a second draft, what are the movements?
• 21:21
  Ellie Alexander: What else is happening?
• 21:22
  Ellie Alexander: Am I taking a sip of water?
• 21:24
  Ellie Alexander: Am I fiddling with my earring?
• 21:25
  Ellie Alexander: Like, what are those physical cues?
• 21:28
  Ellie Alexander: What internal thoughts are we also having?
• 21:30
  Ellie Alexander: Because even when you're saying something, I might be thinking something in my head as you're talking.
• 21:35
  Ellie Alexander: Like, do I believe this guy?
• 21:37
  Ellie Alexander: Is he telling me a lie right now?
• 21:39
  Ellie Alexander: Like, is he the killer?
• 21:40
  Ellie Alexander: You know, you need all of those additional layers in addition to whatever the character's saying.
• 21:46
  Ellie Alexander: So they're saying one thing, but are they feeling something else internally?
• 21:49
  Ellie Alexander: Are they acting strange?
• 21:52
  Tech Guy: Interesting.
• 21:53
  Tech Guy: That so, would would this also include characters you Using words or language that you it uh from based on what you know of them would be out of character.
• 22:08
  Ellie Alexander: Absolutely.
• 22:09
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 22:09
  Ellie Alexander: Yes.
• 22:10
  Tech Guy: I have a theory for why that's happening.
• 22:13
  Ellie Alexander: Okay.
• 22:13
  Ellie Alexander: Interesting.
• 22:14
  Tech Guy: It's AI.
• 22:15
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:16
  Tech Guy: It's AI.
• 22:17
  Tech Guy: No, I mean, I uh so this isn't this isn't book writing specific, but this happens in the corporate world.
• 22:24
  Tech Guy: Um I'll get an email from you know a coworker, and it'll have like three words.
• 22:30
  Tech Guy: I'm like, buddy, I've worked with you for seven years.
• 22:33
  Tech Guy: You've never used those words once in your life.
• 22:36
  Tech Guy: I don't I don't even think you could spell that word.
• 22:38
  Tech Guy: Like, I know, like yes.
• 22:40
  Tech Guy: I it just so it just and that takes you out of like it makes me angry when I read the message.
• 22:48
  Tech Guy: When in reality, he maybe the coworker was just asking me to lunch or whatever, but it's like, would you like to dine with me later?
• 22:54
  Tech Guy: Or I'm like, dine?
• 22:55
  Tech Guy: What?
• 22:55
  Ellie Alexander: Like no.
• 22:56
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 22:59
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 22:59
  Ellie Alexander: And um, that's something that will come up with copy editors, for example.
• 23:02
  Ellie Alexander: This is obviously later down in the process.
• 23:05
  Ellie Alexander: But once you know, you have a book contract and you're you're working with the editorial staff at the publishing house, a copy editor might come and like want to correct your grammar in dialogue.
• 23:14
  Ellie Alexander: But like Jules is never gonna say, for whom uh will I be doing blah, blah, blah.
• 23:22
  Ellie Alexander: Right.
• 23:22
  Ellie Alexander: I mean, that might be the proper way to say it.
• 23:24
  Ellie Alexander: Right.
• 23:24
  Ellie Alexander: But if we're having a real conversation with somebody, I'm gonna say, Who's coming tonight?
• 23:28
  Ellie Alexander: Or, you know, whatever.
• 23:29
  Ellie Alexander: Um so you need to make sure that your dialogue is authentic to the characters.
• 23:36
  Ellie Alexander: One tripping point to this actually made me think of it when you were saying that, is um accents.
• 23:43
  Ellie Alexander: They can get like a little goes a long way.
• 23:48
  Ellie Alexander: You know, but if you're using somebody that's like talking like a country bumpkin and all of that dialogue is like that, that can get really taxing for the reader.
• 23:57
  Ellie Alexander: So there are some interesting ways where you can maybe like pepper that in, um, but you're not having that be the main focus of the dialogue.
• 24:06
  Tech Guy: So the character could have like a catchphrase that's in, you know, whatever um, you know, dialect or or you know, regional specific language that they're using, but then the rest of the time they're pretty much straight and straightforward, right?
• 24:21
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:22
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 24:22
  Tech Guy: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 24:24
  Ellie Alexander: But yeah, and then dialogue should serve a purpose.
• 24:27
  Ellie Alexander: You know, it could be an argument, it could be a reveal, it could be um, you know, so many interesting things, but it shouldn't be wasted on just talking about like, I am picking up the phone now to call so-and-so.
• 24:43
  Ellie Alexander: Like you don't use dialogue in the same way that we would an everyday conversation, unless there's a purpose for that or the story.
• 24:53
  Tech Guy: Right.
• 24:53
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 24:54
  Tech Guy: So I am going to pick up the phone now and call your dad, is not the same as I'm calling your dad.
• 25:00
  unknown: Right.
• 25:01
  Tech Guy: Right?
• 25:01
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 25:01
  Tech Guy: Exactly.
• 25:02
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Tech Guy: Because I would never, yeah.
• 25:05
  Ellie Alexander: Do we need to know that you're calling my like is that central to the thought?
• 25:09
  Ellie Alexander: Because if it isn't, I don't need to know that.
• 25:11
  Tech Guy: Like I think that goes back to what is it, number three info dumping, right?
• 25:16
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:16
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:18
  Ellie Alexander: You they all really tether together.
• 25:20
  Tech Guy: It's kind of you know, I'm actually seeing that, yeah.
• 25:23
  Tech Guy: Now that I think of it, they all they so uh recap them again.
• 25:27
  Tech Guy: We had scenes in vacuums was number one.
• 25:31
  Ellie Alexander: Number two was too many characters.
• 25:34
  Ellie Alexander: Too many characters.
• 25:36
  Tech Guy: Number two for two, yeah.
• 25:38
  Tech Guy: Three is info dumping.
• 25:39
  Ellie Alexander: Four is emotional arcs.
• 25:41
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 25:42
  Ellie Alexander: And five is stilted inauthentic dialogue.
• 25:47
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 25:47
  Tech Guy: Wow, yeah.
• 25:48
  Tech Guy: If you've got all five of those going on in your first draft, like it's gonna, it's gonna be a bit of work.
• 25:55
  Ellie Alexander: You probably do have all five of those going on in your first draft, and that's okay.
• 25:59
  Ellie Alexander: Like you should.
• 26:01
  Ellie Alexander: The key now is to in your second and third and fourth draft, yeah, be aware and add those layers in.
• 26:07
  Ellie Alexander: So don't beat yourself up for that.
• 26:09
  Ellie Alexander: It's an awareness issue because then I think what happens is you get so excited, you're like, oh my gosh, I've written a book, it's done.
• 26:16
  Ellie Alexander: It's probably not done.
• 26:18
  Ellie Alexander: Um, it's gonna take a few more passes with having these things in mind to flesh it out to a point where it's ready for beta readers or an editor or whatever's next.
• 26:29
  Tech Guy: So the goal is to not have these five things in the final draft.
• 26:32
  Ellie Alexander: Exactly.
• 26:33
  Ellie Alexander: Yes.
• 26:34
  Tech Guy: Okay.
• 26:34
  Tech Guy: Yes.
• 26:35
  Ellie Alexander: These are common in every first draft.
• 26:36
  Ellie Alexander: There's still things that I do in a first draft.
• 26:38
  Ellie Alexander: You know, I don't have a lot of fluid movement around my dialogue in a first draft.
• 26:44
  Ellie Alexander: It is a lot of like placeholders.
• 26:46
  Ellie Alexander: He walked, they sat, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:48
  Ellie Alexander: Now, because I've been writing for so long, I tend to flesh out more of my world as I go just because I've I've been in it for so long.
• 26:57
  Ellie Alexander: It's easy to do.
• 26:58
  Ellie Alexander: But I still use this list with every second and third pass that I take to go, okay, wait, is this happening in a vacuum?
• 27:05
  Ellie Alexander: How is this character feeling right now?
• 27:07
  Ellie Alexander: What are they concealing?
• 27:08
  Ellie Alexander: What are, yeah.
• 27:09
  Tech Guy: So And I imagine that takes some practice too, right?
• 27:12
  Tech Guy: To understand that you have to really look at this from the, you know, the lens of a reader to understand what is what from a reader's perspective, where do they think this action is taking place right now?
• 27:27
  Tech Guy: That's right because you know in your head, as the writer, because and and especially you, because I know how you write, like you're envisioning yourself in that place, sitting there watching this take place while you're writing it.
• 27:41
  Tech Guy: That's right.
• 27:42
  Tech Guy: So I imagine once you get to that point, it also might be difficult to not do that right to just assume that, well, everybody knows that I'm sitting here in tort next to Andy and Jules having this conversation in a booth by the window, right?
• 28:00
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah, right.
• 28:00
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 28:00
  Ellie Alexander: I'm at tort.
• 28:01
  Ellie Alexander: Where at tort?
• 28:03
  Ellie Alexander: Are you downstairs?
• 28:03
  Ellie Alexander: Are you in the kitchen?
• 28:04
  Ellie Alexander: Are you by the fireplace?
• 28:05
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 28:06
  Ellie Alexander: So, like, yes, having that lens as you're going back through and really then being much more um aware and critical of your own space and time on the page.
• 28:18
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 28:18
  Tech Guy: That's good advice.
• 28:20
  Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Ellie Alexander: And for all you darlings out there, if you've read some books like this, which I think we all probably have, um, it's good insight for you to fix that for your own.
• 28:33
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 28:33
  Tech Guy: So that'd be a good question out there for the uh for the darlings listening.
• 28:37
  Tech Guy: Like, have you run into these things in books?
• 28:39
  Tech Guy: And we don't need to name titles.
• 28:41
  Tech Guy: Like, let's not, let's not drag anybody through the mud here.
• 28:45
  Tech Guy: Like it's just, but but it would be interesting to know, like, uh for the listeners out there, who like how many of these things have you encountered in books?
• 28:52
  Tech Guy: Um, I I'm just curious because I know myself in going through these, and this list was surprising.
• 28:58
  Tech Guy: You probably saw and heard my reaction to a few of them.
• 29:02
  Tech Guy: Um, I I have myself encountered these in final drafts before.
• 29:06
  Tech Guy: So some of them very recently.
• 29:08
  Tech Guy: Um Yeah.
• 29:09
  Ellie Alexander: And what are the things that then make you also as a reader go, oh no?
• 29:15
  Tech Guy: Yeah, totally.
• 29:17
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 29:17
  Tech Guy: Let us know in the comments.
• 29:19
  Tech Guy: Yeah.
• 29:20
  Ellie Alexander: Absolutely.
• 29:21
  Ellie Alexander: All right.
• 29:21
  Ellie Alexander: Well, I hope that's helpful.
• 29:23
  Ellie Alexander: And um, I guess that means it is until next time.
• 29:28
  Tech Guy: Until next time, thanks for listening to another episode of Reality Rights.