Latest / ABA Business Leaders / Nervous System Regulation, Authentic Leadership, and the Humanity Behind ABA
Transcript
- speaker-0: There are beautiful things. We won't get into the details of neurosception and interoception and all of these things, but essentially our nervous system is always scanning the proverbial room and asking this one question. Am I safe? So how can we do that in ways that do no harm, but also create trust and emotional safety? speaker-1: Welcome to ABA Business Leaders, brought to you by 3Pie Square, where we discuss topics on how to create and grow an ethical and sustainable ABA practice. speaker-2: Whether you're starting, scaling, or thinking about selling your business, we're here to share insights, stories, and strategies to help you on the journey. speaker-1: We owned a successful ABA practice for over 10 years. speaker-2: And now we help other ABA business owners do the same without all the chaos. speaker-1: Stick around, you're in the right place. speaker-0: Sure. speaker-2: Or the things that you want to tell us about you. speaker-0: Okay, yes, my deepest, darkest secrets are there. How's that right? Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. I am the CEO of the Jai Institute for Parenting, where I met you and wonderful experience with you there. I am the founder and CEO of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting, the board president for the American Society for the Positive Care of Children, and a real live parent and professional working in the space of speaker-2: There you go. speaker-0: How to be human, if I'm really to boil it down. And we know that every single one of us, including me, has a nervous system. So I have done a lot of research and work in the field of nervous system science and attachment and stuff like that. ⁓ I'm also the author of Peaceful Discipline because this work matters to me as a parent, as a fellow human, and just, you know, as someone who sincerely wants to support others who are out there in the world with me. speaker-2: Well, thank you. What an excellent introduction. I I it's always so awkward these like begetting parts of of the podcast, ⁓ when as as we're like heading into the ⁓ the topic and doing the introductions and all of that. But I do have to share, like we're we're talking about nervous system regulation today. And I think all like the three of us here, our nervous systems are definitely ⁓ tested. As we were getting ready for the podcast, you know, we had like fun technical difficulties and we're trying to figure things out. And the the the best, my favorite part about that though, is that it was such a great icebreaker in the sense of like giving us all reminders of our humanness and the fact that we're like accepting each other's humanness and we're just here as we are. And and I think that's kind of like the vibe that I want to to to kind of flow into this conversation. Yeah, as as Sarah said, ⁓ quite a few years ago now, a few years ago, I ⁓ Sarah was my my teacher, my instructor at Ajay Institute for Parenting and I that was my first introduction to these things, right? So I knew I'd been in the ABA field for decades and ⁓ we were at the point where we were closing our ABA business. And we were working on an international move and it was ⁓ COVID times. It was like twenty twenty-one-ish, right? ⁓ into twenty twenty two. And and like I I don't even have the words. Like looking back on it, I think, wow, it was only by the grace of God that I was able to even make it through those years. Like, how am I still standing right now? You know, we had loss within our family, really deep, you know, hurtful loss. And and I was honestly at the point where I was drinking like two glasses of wine every night. And in months into that, I realized, ⁓ okay. My one glass of wine while I was cooking supper turned into two. And really about to it was about to turn into three. And then I found just what I was searching for was some kind of regulation. I was trying to figure out like how to even be in my body, how to get through. these really tough times that we were in, right? And ⁓ Steven had already started his like journey into mindfulness and meditation and things like that. And I kind of saw his journey and was a little bit resentful of it, a little bit like, ⁓ how can you even, right? Like, you know, we've shared shared some of this on on the podcast before. So those of you who have been around for a while have heard some of this. But ⁓ was also like really done with ABA. I I was I was breaking up with ABA. I was done with ABA. I didn't know if I believed in the science anymore. I didn't know if I wanted to be part of it. And but it was it ⁓ now I can see it was very much my black and white brain trying to put things into categories and buckets and make sense of things. And they weren't working out for me. And I thought so anyway, so I thought okay I'm gonna just start doing parent coaching. You know, I'm just gonna start doing parent coaching. Like that easy enough, right? And and I already work with parents a lot and I help them, right? And I'm a parent myself. And maybe, maybe I can make some good in in like in that way. Well, and then I I showed up to Juper. I showed up to your class and my world was rocked. But like I was like, okay, there's some hope. There there okay, there is a there's a way to do this. And there are people out here who like this hold space, this this term hold space for others. I was like, what in the heck does that mean? and I I didn't know if it was like my ADHD, like neurospicy brain, there again, trying to put things into categories, trying to think very concretely of things. And I'm like, what is this hold space? Well, I will tell you people, Sarah Moore is the queen of holding space. Like, I felt even though we had a classroom, right? It wasn't a one-on-one situation. I just you always showed up. I learned more about just your presence and how you showed up each week than I did about the content that you you spoke. Because I really, you really You modeled what it's like to show up. And I could I think in some sense I was like I didn't understand it then, but I was also like you showed up with like you were grounded and like you're you know, you you were able to like co regulate in some way, right? Like a and and that's what I felt, right? And I felt safe. And and it was it was I I thank you for that. 'Cause I really needed that in my life at that time. speaker-0: Thank you, April, for sharing that. I knew pieces of your story, but I didn't know as much as you just shared now. And I am so grateful for you for modeling what it is to be a human being. Because the truth is I can look at both of you on this podcast right now and say, What lovely people. They have it all put together. They always have and always will. And yet you and me and everybody else is walking around being human with all of the things that come with that. The messiness of figuring out tech on the podcast, the messiness of whether it's the the glasses of wine or the losses or whatever dysregulation people are bringing in, including neurodivergence, like the list does not end. Not to mention just regular everyday garden variety parenting or living among other humans. It's legitimately hard sometimes. So to be able to show up with the authenticity that you just did. Give somebody else out there permission to feel, permission to seek support in evidence-based ways, permission to live in the gray if they have had that black and white experience of thinking so far. So I just sincerely appreciate you naming the humanity that you brought into our exchanges. And it is a joy and a privilege to be able to hold space for you and for anybody else who does this work of being human because we're all winging it and we just need people who will get it and who will love us through it no matter what. speaker-2: Yes, yes, and thank you for that. Yeah. We that's ⁓ it's been our thing here is just getting conversations started, right? And and ha maybe having some conversations that ⁓ maybe others might be a little nervous to have in front of others or to just get those conversations started conversations started with other people within their own ⁓ organizations. so, you know, as As you may know a little bit about us, most of our listeners here are ABA business leaders, meaning that they are decision makers, ⁓ owners, leaders within an ABA agency. They may provide in home services, they may provide ⁓ they may have a clinic space, they may be in school settings. And in the the major ⁓ maybe it's a majority, is that safe to say, are like early, you know, childhood, ⁓ early intervention, you know, birth to eight ish. ⁓ some of the learners that we provide, ⁓ you know, with ⁓ most everyone's most all the learners are on the autism spectrum. And so of course, as you know, there's a very wide variety of learners. And then we do have people here who also provide services for, you know, teens and adults and you know, just a variety of needs within the population. We also know that within our population the the abuse ⁓ rate is really high. you know, a significant portion of our population struggle with being able to communicate in ways that other people can can understand them, right? and and so that adds to that vulnerability of not being able to communicate. And sadly in our field, we have had their cases of abuse. I mean, sadly, you know, trigger warning here for any of you, and we've discussed this on our podcast before, but we will we'll be covering a little bit of that here over the next few minutes. But ⁓ you know, there are technicians in the field who do the one on one work, and there there have been alleged and proven cases of abuse. ⁓ there are individuals in the space who have claimed to get a job in the space. speaker-1: That was the one that got me, right? Like it's like, wow, okay. I maybe I was being naive, ⁓ but like this person said this is the reason why I got this job, because I knew I would be alone in their room, all by themselves right. ⁓ and I could do what what I wanted to do, which was all kinds of terrible things. April and I are so honored to have margin keepers sponsor this podcast. speaker-2: Running an ABA business comes with its share of challenges. Managing clients, staff, insurance. The list goes on. speaker-1: One thing you shouldn't add to your stress, bookkeeping. That's where margin keepers comes in. speaker-2: They're specialists in ABA businesses, which means they understand exactly what we need. speaker-1: With Margin Keepers handling your finances, you can focus on what really matters, your clients, and your practices growth. speaker-2: They're more than just bookkeepers, they're lifesavers in the financial world of A B. speaker-1: So for peace of mind and expert financial management. speaker-2: Turn to margin keepers, it's a decision that will lift the weight off of your shoulders. speaker-1: Check out Margin Keepers at www.marginkeepers.com and see how they can help your business thrive. speaker-2: We've talked before on previous podcasts. If you want to go back and look at those those of you who are listening who wanna know more about it, but you know, we talk about all the things that the the companies can put into place to help protect your staff and protect the the individuals that we're providing services for. but I say all of this to help to help build I don't know, story doesn't seem like the right word, but like to help ⁓ to put all the pieces in place. So we have we have that we're working with really you know, vulnerable population. We have that we know that s there's some not good in our field. ⁓ there's a lot of good in our field, but there's some not good in our field. And and even outside of that, we're working with individuals who can exhibit some pretty severe behaviors, aggressive behaviors, self-injurious behaviors. ⁓ we work with some beautiful individuals who are just the the most amazing humans and But they're just really struggling and having a hard time and they're still learning. So that so I say all of this to help paint the picture of how how stressful it is, how hard it can be to be a clinician and be a technician in this field. Not saying that it's not hard in other fields too, but we are just talking about this field. And so part of My reasoning for wanting to have this conversation because there are also those thanks for following me here. I'm a little bit all over the place as I get to this point, but a part of it is there are those bad individuals who who are unfortunately targeting. But then there are a lot of really amazing humans in this field try they're here to do a good job to help people. Helping field, right? But sometimes they find themselves in really difficult situations. Okay. So here I come to. speaker-1: It's a helping field. speaker-2: nervous system regulation. And so that's why I brought Sarah on so we could have this conversation to understand what that even means. What does this even mean, right? and and how can what are some maybe real life tools and tricks and and what do we need to do to learn this ⁓ for ourselves? Because we want to show up in a compassionate way. And we want to be able to connect with the individuals that we're working with, right? We want to be able to hold space for them. We want to be able to offer that regulating, you know, co-regulation. And but we have to, you know, a lot of times in our field, it's like ignore the bat, you know, ignore, you know, there's all of that like, ⁓ you have to come in with a poker face and show no affect and be very sterile and very neutral. And you're going to ignore the crying. and if there it's attention seeking. But the kind of ABA that we talk about here and that we support and that, you know, in promote is is the compassionate human first kind of ABA. But I think to be able to part of being able to provide that is as we talk about is our own responsibility as a grown up human in this field. To be able to be self-aware of our own self. And there we go. See, we were talking about talking with your hands earlier. That that's my that's my language there. But and and and how, you know, and how to do that in a way where you can be true to yours and show up for this little human. So I don't know, Sarah, where do we start from here? Like, do we do we talk about what nervous regulate like what what that even means? Or you're the expert here. Which direction should we take? speaker-0: Yeah, I have multiple thoughts coming up. First of all, thank you for naming all of that, because all of that is a part of this discussion. We need to be able to authentically discuss the bad alongside the good and not sugarcoat the bad or pretend that the good is just always pure and rainbows and unicorns, right? We are all on the spectrum of humanity with complex emotional responses to every single situation we face in life. So I love what you said about the kind and compassionate parts of ADA, because I'll state the obvious, ADA sometimes gets a bad rap because people perceive it as lacking connection, emotion, attunement. So many of the things that we know humans need in order to thrive. So we really do need to applaud those of you who are moving away from behaviorism. I say with air quotes in, like you said, ignore the crying, it's all attention seeking, whatever. No, first things we need to do are update our nomenclature. Attention seeking is actually connection seeking. And as Dr. Ross Green says, all behavior is communication. He didn't say only for neurotypical kids or only for people outside of the ABA field or only anything. No, it's everyone all the time. If there is a behavior, it is communicating something about the person's inner world, whether it is a young, young child or whether it is a fully grown adult like you and me. So how we figure out the special space where we can still get the work done while also showing up for the human in front of us and saying this isn't a script I need to follow. This isn't a to-do list or a task list, this is a human. And if they feel that I care about them as a human, then we can start applying the tools. But the connection has to be the foundation of everything. So even in the ABA world, it is so important and I'm so grateful that you're normalizing that as part of the discussion because it has to be there before anything else will quote unquote work. So I think that really needs to be our Launching point. The other point that I really want to call out that you touched on is poker face. Okay, I can tell you without a doubt, please never take me to Vegas and ask me to gamble for you. I have no poker face, right? This this thing does not hide my emotions. So I will not succeed in the gambling field. However, it's important, regardless of what we do, maybe with the exception of gambling. We need to show up as our authentic self because our nervous system has really only two options. Show it or suppress it. Suppress it isn't healthy for us. We are not doing anyone a favor by sucking it up and pretending everything is fine if we too are dysregulated. This is for a couple of scientific reasons. Number one, it's horrible for our own body if we are doing nothing but shoving down our own. emotions all day, every day. We will feel the fallout, short term or long term, if we are in emotional suppression mode on a chronic basis. The other thing is that it actually creates a whole lot of confusion for the person we're working with. Because verbal, nonverbal, child, adult, doesn't matter who you are, you can tell when somebody's not being authentic. There's There are beautiful things. We won't get into the details of neuroception and interoception and all of these things, but essentially our nervous system is always scanning the proverbial room and asking this one question. Am I safe? That's it. Am I safe? And if, again, whether I'm a child or an adult, if I show up and s let's pretend for a moment that Stephen is in suppression mode. I am smart enough, just because I'm a human being, to say, I don't think he's being authentic, which translates to I feel less safe with you. And now if you're trying to get me to change my behavior, I'm going to feel that it's manipulation rather than authentic connection. So then the next part of the discussion might be at some point, how can we authentically express what we're feeling without inappropriately putting on the recipient of our feelings our feelings. So how can we do that in ways that do no harm, but also create trust and emotional safety? I'm gonna pause there because that's already a lot, but let me check in. How's that feel to both of you? speaker-2: Yeah, so does that remind you of the creepy mommy voice? No. speaker-1: I like where I was going with this was like you know, I I was there for I don't know thirty seven years, right? And then ⁓ like you said we're all humans winging it, like that broke my heart, right? Because like I got there at I don't know, thirty eight, thirty nine and I realized, whoa, like no one knows what they're doing. Right. And why am I listening to these people? Why am I following this path? and ⁓ like there was probably two years where I was like, okay, where I I lost ⁓ the ground underneath me. It was gone, right? And it was very scary. And it's like, okay, what authority can I listen to? And there's just it's like, you know, I I lost my, I don't know, innocence, I guess you could say, right? And it was It was definitely heartbreaking. It was hard to to go through. But you know, that that authenticity, I think this is something that I I've said in a couple of our podcasts, but I I feel like B C B A's like have this skill where, you know, bad need to shut it off, right? Like that's just a natural thing. And so like to say speaker-2: Natural? Did we get did we learn it? speaker-1: Well, yeah, it's a learned behavior, right? But like some people are really good at that, right? And so that's their like go to superpower. And so and they think, ⁓ well, I shut this off when I leave the session. you do not like this is this is with you all the time, everywhere. And so even on the business side, you know, they're ⁓ you have a problem employee, or ⁓ there's a I need to shut it off. Where you know what I mean? Like bad things are bad. They need to be ignored so that I can move on with my life. And so I think that there's that natural thing. And like it does bleed over into other parts of your life. And so this comes home with you. It's it's your business partner. It's you it not it doesn't just stop when you leave the session that day. speaker-2: And when I started when I started the course with Sarah, I was pretty sure she was gonna teach me how to help everybody be happy so I could be comfortable. Right. And and that that really kind of brought I I like hit like I don't want rock bottom sounds too dramatic, but I like what I learned was really hard for me because it really shook the foundation of what I believed, right? And ⁓ and it it I've I mean I'm still learning. We're all still learning and growing. but but I it was that was what was really hard for me to then be able to step back into ABA and help consult and coach other, you know, providers in this space and me feel like I'm showing up as my authentic self, right? Because I because of this thing, because then during this whole time, my child I thought I was being I thought I was being calm. I thought I was being grounded. I thought I was I was being like like I I thought I didn't realize it was the same behavior as my BC, my my mom a BC ABA, but my behavior analyst poker face. But I thought I had shifted and grown and changed and I thought, ⁓ I was I was being more ⁓ holding space for my child. But all I did was shift my voice. And so then it came across to my child as creepy mommy voice. And and like he was he's very he's he's an amazing communicator. So he was able to like explain these things to me and it confused me so much. And I was like, But no, I'm be I'm here for you. And he's like, Yeah, absolutely not. She she's confusing. So so that that's that ⁓ that was one of my big th when you were saying that and it was all connected to like yeah, as you I mean You're not just calling me out, but you No, no you like what your your observation from that was also living with a behavior analyst who expected like I was very uncomfortable with other people's feelings of that. speaker-1: Like like these are bad things. They need to be stopped. Right. We have to put a plan in place to stop them. Right. And and like so what you're saying is that only part of me can come, right? Only part of me can be here. And so that like that affects everyone when you're pushing, hey, I'm okay with you. Why can't you be okay with me? Do you know what I mean? And and so I I think that I think that's a natural thing for most people that there are parts of themselves that they don't want to show others for fear of being ostracized or whatever, right? But I I think that that is a superpower of behavior and speaker-2: And I may be going kind of off the rails a little bit, but I think that's part of it too, is like the compliance train compliance training and you know, when I see goals with like kids will like a for a two or three year old that's talking about it will reduce tantruming to zero percent to grow what? I don't speaker-1: Temper tantrum on the phone two days ago. speaker-2: And the compliance, right? Like the the and that that leads into the expectation of ⁓ you ⁓ you need to be perfect. We need you little humans speaker-1: We're gonna measure everything. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, I don't yeah. So sorry Sarah, we're totally derailing here, but speaker-0: This is all totally legit and it's so relatable because you're absolutely right. We have focused so much on compliance that we've really taken the humanity out of it, and so much of the healing begins with the inner work that we need to do around accepting the fact that we don't need to be happy all the time, much less anybody else in our presence. In fact, I will join you off the rails. I don't know where we're going, April, but let me join you for a second. I had an opportunity to practice this with my own child the other day. I was having You know, just a phenomenally rough day. And at the end of the day, and I was putting her to bed and she said, Mama, you seem really stressed. Are you okay? And my former self wanted to speak up and say, ⁓ yes, I'm totally fine. Let's focus on bedtime. Sweet dreams, all is well. Like let's just put a nice little bow on this and be happy. But I thought I am doing her a disservice. speaker-2: You know. speaker-0: If I do that, because she's already read the room, the room that is me, and she's called me out and saying, You don't seem okay. So in that moment, I went in a totally uncomfortable place because I too operate from prior narratives. But I was able to say in that moment, Thank you so much for noticing that, sweetheart. You're right, I am feeling really stressed. But I didn't just leave it there. That might have already been cycle breaking. It might have already been helpful because I was validating that what she saw was true. But I decided in that moment, because I have been very intentional about learning some of these new tools, to say if I want to raise a child who has a healthier narrative around her own emotional expression and authenticity, I also can't leave it at you're right, you noticed the correct thing. If I want to raise someone who is resilient and model and grow my own resilience, I have to tell her what I'm doing about it. Which then very briefly turned into, thank you so much for noticing that. You're right. I am feeling a lot of stress. I want you to know that you are not responsible for fixing my stress. I love you and I am so grateful for you and that we can talk about things openly. And I promise you this if my stress gets to be too much for me. I will seek support. And that was enough to actually see her shoulders soften, lower. And she was like, Good, mama's taken care of herself. But that was such a different dialogue than what many of us grew up with and what I would have said up until not that long ago. But we really do have to be able to name it and show here's what we're doing about it. We can't just leave it as, yep, it's messy. Thanks for asking. speaker-2: Yes, I love that. speaker-1: I mean, I can see that in in our own son too, right? Like he he can just read it. He just come on, you're BSM me, right? And and then and then what happens is that he goes into fix it mode and speaker-2: Well, I mean, i I don't I wanna be very cautious not to call out his you know, we're keep his privacy, but he does have like ⁓ I guess it's safe to say honey badger. Like it's been around for years and it's like his protector. And so in our family we understand Honey Badger and so when when when we see little little parts of Honey Badger poking out, w I think we have learned to step back and evaluate where we are. Yeah, most of the time. speaker-1: Yeah, it's totally us. Not most of it. speaker-2: He's starting to read the room and he goes, ⁓ something's and and then yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Sumza, right. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of this really comes from a place too that you just named. We do need to be able to regulate our own nervous system in that moment enough to notice the reactions around us, notice that we are we we all have something called neuroneurons, right? Emotions are literally contagious. Knowing that if we fake it, it's just extra confusing for the person around us and for our own nervous system for that matter. But knowing that emotions are contagious, I get to be curious about what am I feeling right now and what can I do to create some safety in my body right in this moment? Because if I don't start there, doesn't really matter what comes out of my mouth. So I don't know, would now be a good time to talk about just even a few super actionable in the moment things that people can do to sort of ground their bodies and then move forward more authentically. speaker-2: Yeah, I mean, you totally read my mind, I think. yes, because it also keeping in mind, right, just as a lot of parents, I mean, we do have a few parents that listen to this podcast, but just as a parent, in the moment, sometimes we are the pasta's boiling and we have multiple kids with multiple needs and the dogs barking. And so sometimes it's not like we can completely step away into a separate bedroom and take 30 minutes to ourselves. It the same thing with like teachers and technicians and clinicians. I mean, sometimes you're in the middle of a really tough moment when you're recognizing, ooh, I need something. speaker-1: Tid you might be getting kicked a bit, hit, right? Like they're they're ⁓ speaker-2: So keeping that in mind, and which I'm sure you are, of like those little quick I mean, you know, things that we the practical tips that we can we can actually do, because I think sometimes we do think to the other extreme of, ⁓ I need calm. What does calm look like? ⁓ I need I I need a bubble bath or I need two hours to check out and watch Netflix or something, right? Who has that time to do that? And and is that really helpful? So yes, that would be great, Sarah. speaker-0: Yeah, and thanks for naming in the bubble bath. I have never been in a stressful situation and spontaneously, poof, ended up in a bubble bath. Wow. Beautiful magic. If only, right? Does not work that way. speaker-2: Like I'm aging myself with a Calgon, take me away. You're speaker-0: We actually quoted Calgon the other night at home, so I'm right there with you. So yeah. ⁓ yeah. And if anybody is wondering what in the world are Sarah and April talking about, go back and listen to like an eight track, you know, or something and then you'll speaker-2: You'll have back in the dinosaur days, as my child would say. speaker-0: Exactly, exactly, yeah. ⁓ so I digress. So we know about the brain that we have about six seconds between an input and our choice to react before our brain decides for us how we're going to react. Six seconds is both a very long and a very short at the same time, right? So if we are in an interaction with someone else and we are starting to feel triggered, we are feeling that temperature rise, our clock might already be starting with the six seconds. Now let's say we decide I'm just gonna suppress my emotions and pretend that everything is fine. Guess what? Our brain is like, you only think you're suppressing your emotions. Your six seconds are out, my friend. And next thing you know, either we have really embodied the stress, stuffed it down to the point where it It is going to come out later, or we are reactive in a way that is probably suboptimal. So six seconds, really short time when I frame it that way. When we are intentional about noticing our bodies, though, six seconds is plenty. For example, earlier in today's conversation, when April mentioned trigger warning, that was enough for me to know. You know what? I am aware that my feet are on the floor. That is something very simple that I can do. And that took a split second. I still had like five and a half seconds left to do bonus materials if I wanted to. But I was able to regulate myself just saying, prepare to ground myself in whatever simple way I can access in the moment. Now, for better or worse, most people, and particularly children, don't walk around saying, trigger warning, I'm about to melt down. doesn't happen that way. So if only, right? We all need like little labels on our shirts being like, this is my current emotional state. And you know, but it doesn't work that way. So instead, it's our job to be attuned enough to, to the degree that it's within our power, notice when the energy is starting to shift. Notice if it feels like things are starting to change in a way that might get uncomfortable. When we start to sense that Because we too are constantly scanning the room, asking the question, Am I safe? As soon as our body starts to tell us this might get uncomfortable, and some of you might be thinking, Well, is that all day, every day? If so, you're probably in hypervigilant mode and you need to be more intentional about doing these things on a proactive basis, even when there's no chance of an actual threat. So With no further ado, I already mentioned one. I just checked to make sure that my feet were on the ground. Indeed, my soles of my feet are planted. If I had been all balled up and cross-legged and whatever, I probably would have uncrossed my knees just to make sure that my feet were on the ground. It's a very basic thing. I'm actually going to work kind of from the legs up since I started there. Didn't plan that, but improv, right? So I can make sure that my feet are grounded. I can also simply wiggle my toes. That reminds me I have a whole body here. And it's my job to bring my energy, my breath, whatever I want to call it, to my whole body, as opposed to when I'm in fight or flight mode, I'm here. I'm breathing from here to here, if at all, if I'm honest. So if I can just be intentional about I have other body parts. I don't even have to really be involving my brain so much at this point. Just be aware, move those toes, and that will tell you you've got more parts here. As I work up the body, I can notice legs and buttocks in particular are chronic places for tightening when we feel stressed, right? Relax your backside. It feels awkward to be talking about bottoms here on a podcast, but we all have them, okay? Let's just normalize that. See if you can just relax those muscles because interestingly, when you relax those muscles, let me make this an all play. April or Stephen, do you notice what happens if I ask you to relax those parts of you? Do you feel any loosening of any other parts? Amazing, right? Like this is sort of the central holding place in our bodies. So how can we use that to our advantage, as awkward as it may feel, to notice what else we can release in the places we're storing our stress, where we're clenching our fists, whatever it might be. Let's move on to the fists and then I'll kind of move upward even more. I noticed the other day while I was having breakfast on that particularly stressful day that I mentioned. I was literally holding my spoon in one hand, having my cereal or whatever I was having, totally clenched fist with my other hand. And I just decided to open it and put my hand on my leg. It was such a small act of confirmation. I'm in my kitchen. There is no threat here. So notice how you are holding your hands. I for bonus points. Put them on your thighs, squeeze your thighs with your hands. Again, it's just a quick way to mind you, you have a whole body here. Some people are stomach holders of their tension. There are reasons why we have so many expressions in the English language and other languages as well. I can't stomach that, you know, weight of the world on my shoulders. My body connection is a very real thing. It often speaks to where we are holding our stress. Soften that stomach if it feels accessible to you, and I'll unpack that in just a second. See if you can breathe into your stomach. Just picture the oxygen flowing all the way down to those areas that may not be getting oxygen if you're breathing in that fight or flight zone again. I mentioned if it feels safe to you regarding breath work as I continue to work up the body. Breath work is probably one of the most commonly recommended approaches to. Creating safety in the body during times of stress or anxiety. However, what we also know that a lot of people don't is that breath work can actually trigger or activate stress or trauma responses. So sometimes if people try it, they actually end up feeling more tense than if they didn't. So if breath work isn't your thing, you make sense. Don't try to force it. There's nothing wrong with you. Likewise, sometimes Tapping, EFT tapping, evidence-based. You can do it anytime, anywhere. Look, here I am. You can't see my hands, but I'm doing the side of my hand right here. Above the this is awkward on a video, but you know, the eyebrow region. There are places you can tap to help create more safety in your body. Last couple, and I then have just a few. Couple of bonus ones on top of that, if you are able to move your body, because I am right now sharing things you can do if you're not in a position to really move around much. This is something you can do while you're in the room, at a table, sitting still with someone, trying to be professional, whatever that means to you. So I'm trying to do things that are actionable without having to change any simply looking away. In fact, Dean and April, I invite you to look at something other than me, look at another wall, whatever it might be. There you go. Right now, just by doing that, you have told yourself Sarah's not a threat. Let's think about this from an evolutionary perspective, right? If we were out in the field and yonder animal was charging us, we wouldn't look away and say, Huh, nice day here. Right? We would be hyper focused on either fighting or fleeing. Just simply by changing our gaze. It signals to our nervous system that this isn't an emergency. And that's something you can do anytime, anywhere. Staying up in the upper regions now, certainly, and we talked about it a little bit related to Stephen, mindfulness, meditation, prayer, evidence-based things. Some people say, What? Prayer is evidence-based? Yes, it actually is. When you can have that connection with something that feels greater than yourself. Again, I know that this isn't going to be everybody's cup of tea, but I'm pointing to the research and saying it can create an incredible sense of safety in the body. And that's something that you can do again anytime, anywhere. Now for my bonus items that I promised, and then I will take a breath, I promise, if you are in a position where you can move your body, it might be as subtle as progressive muscle relaxation, all the way up to and including dancing. Shaking it out. Bodies are meant to move, and particularly if we are feeling that we are in a fight or flight state. No part of fight or flight is sit still and pretend everything's fine. You can absolutely meet your body's need for movement by engaging your large muscle groups in whatever form that makes sense that is safe and healthy for you. As promised, I am now taking my breath. For your thoughts and reflections. speaker-2: I have a feeling you have things. speaker-1: I mean, yeah, like for me, you know ⁓ you know, I I started the meditation mindfulness journey. I don't know, when I was so ten years ago. Yeah, that's a long time. It doesn't anyway. ⁓ before that, like it was head up right. This is the only thing that mattered, right? My head, my mind. I mean like ⁓ I practiced as an engineer for years and so the rest of my body I didn't like speaker-2: The baby. Decade now? Yeah. speaker-1: Didn't exist. Yeah, it didn't exist. It was like it was a vehicle, right? As any other vehicle would be, like a car or and it ⁓ for me, ⁓ it was a a really crappy car because my I had chronic back pain and ⁓ so it was a it was a really bad car to ⁓ so and that's really where I was. And so when I started ⁓ with my therapist where she brought in mindfulness and ⁓ ⁓ like ⁓ body scanning. ⁓ like okay, feel your feet. Like, dude, what do I don't know what my feet feel like, right? Like that that's where I started. And so, like, is there anything for people like that to get into this? 'Cause like how does your body feel? I don't know. It it's it's this blob thing and it I it kind I you know what I mean? Like I can't recognize it. I don't have words for this. I I don't know what it is. It it just is. And so like where does someone like that begin? Is there a safe place for them to start this process? I speaker-0: I love that question, Stephen. And what you just shared is so incredibly relatable because frankly, most of us have not done the inner work to be able to have any idea what our body is actually feeling and needing at any moment in time. So thank you for normalizing that. I want to talk about the car analogy in just a second too. But yes, there is a beautiful place you can get started. And it is Wildly accessible, even though it doesn't feel like it. All right, I'm gonna be very real again. We already talked about bottoms, so I feel like we can talk about anything, right? Let's just go there. have either of you, and I'm gonna put you both on the spot, have either of you ever been thirsty and thought, ⁓ let me just do two or three more things and then I will go get a drink? Yeah, it's a really basic one, right? Have you ever had that? glass of tea like I have in front of me or your large glass of water. And then three hours later you're like, I really need to use the restroom, but I'll just do two or three more things before allowing myself to go to the restroom. Is that familiar? Yeah, absolutely. There you go. So ⁓ yes, now part of me wants to be like Steven, go to speaker-2: Right now. Yeah, right. speaker-0: Yeah, so much of starting this journey of body awareness begins with I am noticing that I'm thirsty or hungry or have to go to the bathroom. And I am not going to delay that which my body tells me I am needing. And even though I've done a ton of work personally around this and I'm super introspective and very aware of my needs on a regular basis, most of the time, because I'm still human, right? But I still catch myself thinking, I'm just gonna do the next couple of things before I take care of this basic human need, whatever it might be. It is a radical act of self-compassion and self-care to be able to say, you know what? Switching that load of laundry can wait. I deserve a glass of water. I am going to honor my body in this way by getting the glass of water. And it's amazing how. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Loving it feels when we do simple radical acts of kindness. For people who are just getting started, like, I don't know what I'm feeling and how it shows up in my body. You probably know when you're thirsty. Get the water. Prioritize yourself in that small way. And even when you take these baby steps into self-awareness like this, it does open the door for you mean I get to show up for myself. You mean my feelings are valid? You mean I get to do something about it if I'm noticing something in my body? So that's the most beautiful and accessible starting point for all of my engineering and similarly programmed, no pun intended friends who are saying, I just need to start somewhere, but I don't even know what it would look like. And to ever so briefly talk about your car analogy, I can think of no better analogy when it comes to this stuff. These tips and tricks don't work. I'll be totally blunt about that. They don't work if we wait until we are in a panic situation to try them. A couple of years ago, I was in an Uber on my way to the airport, and the driver was going almost double the speed limit on the highway. And terrifyingly fast and recklessly, we had trouble communicating because we had language differences. And I still even if we did understand each other more clearly, probably wouldn't have felt super comfortable being like, hi, feeling terrified back here. Would you would you mind not putting us at at risk? You know, I I wasn't sure what I should say, if anything. So in the backseat of that Uber, I had to very intentionally go through my mental checklist of what can I do to create safety in my body right now. And I actually, even though I had my mental checklist of here are all the things I can do, Probably the two first two or three things that I tried didn't work. So my panic was increasing. And only once I tried that one next thing did I start to feel more safety in my body. Thank God we made it to the airport. You know, all turned out all right. But I was so grateful that I had more than one tool at my disposal. So just like we don't wait until the car is actively exploding before we take it into the shop. We know that we need the oil change. We know that we need the tires rotated, et cetera, et cetera. We have to do these things when there's not an emergency. We've got to practice with our own body. So for anybody listening to this right now, saying, Yeah, I'm the bathroom person. I don't even go when I need to, tell you what, what are you needing right now? Just notice your body right. Here's your invitation right during this conversation. Notice one thing that would help you feel Like a whole person, even if it's just scanning that body and relaxing that muscle, getting that sip of water. This is your version of taking the car into the shop before it breaks. speaker-1: I'm curious, like what what are your thoughts on like regular recreational drug use? Like I it just like 'cause because well like it it it kind of numbs you, right? And a lot of people say yes, that's what I'm saying. Like, does that does that not allow you to even start the process because you're not really you're almost escaping, right? And speaker-2: If I could say first before Sarah, I that's where I mean, I haven't had alcohol in like three years or something now. And I as I learned better coping skills and how to regulate my body and all of those things, it was a process, but that's I'm I feel like I'm much further along in that journey now. But but it it was it I learned c I thought in that moment that yes, it just it would numb it and it would shut it off. What I didn't realize at that time is like it was actually amplify amplifying. ⁓ really? For me, my personal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the moment it was a quick fix. Right. Right. It it made things worse. speaker-1: I just like, does it do you lose the opportunity to feel your like your whole self if you're constantly well drug use, alcohol you, whatever, right? Like like for me, my my ⁓ choice was food, right? Like just dude, just give me all the food, right? And then I can I feel I feel good eating this yummy food, and then I can like negative self-talk myself because ⁓ you you suck. Why did you eat all this food? Right. That was kind of my cycle. But like I then I didn't have to feel the anxiety thought that was really the problem. Do you know what I mean? And so that was my s so I'm just curious, like, do you think people can do this successfully if they are like ⁓ partaking in this on a regular basis? Should can is there can you learn this at the same time? Or do you have to like speaker-2: Can you learn? speaker-1: kind of say, ⁓ I'm gonna stop this for at least temporarily while I work on myself. I I don't know. speaker-2: For me I learned it at the same time. But I will let the expert weigh in. speaker-0: Super good questions because a lot of people do wonder about these things. I'm going to reference the work of Dr. Daniel J. Ayman, who has done probably more brain scans than most other neuroscientists put together. And what we know from all the studies of drug use, alcohol use, things like that. And by the way, congratulations, April, for three years. That's phenomenal. I just want to celebrate your sobriety. So that's that's beautiful. ⁓ we don't we do know that substances do literally, in the most literal, literal senses, change the brain architecture. And they absolutely will mess with our ability to cope in productive ways and have all sorts of other negative short and long-term outcomes. So short answer is, and I can say this without judgment, but simply from a pulling the research. It's not going to be a supportive tool, short term or long term. It's going to be a version of emotional suppression. And frankly, if I can expand that to anything, you mentioned food. Maybe it's even something that most people would consider healthy. And I put that once again in my beloved air quotes. Exercise, right? Exercise is great. You know, it could be anything at all, but anything that is taken to an extreme or done as A reactive way to blunt the pain without working alongside healthier evidence-based coping mechanisms is ultimately going to backfire and put the person in a much worse place than if they worked to scaffold, if appropriate, away from detrimental behaviors and into healthier behaviors. But I mentioned exercise because again, people can look at that and say, How healthy, how wonderful. But I guarantee you, if I were exercising twelve hours a day, can't imagine that because I certainly don't, but if I were, I'd be neglecting some other parts of my life that really do need nurturing and presence. So we have to figure out, and Dr. Dan Siegel talks about this too, humans essentially fail to thrive when we are in a chronic state of chaos or a chronic state of rigidity. And I'm tying this into our discussion because sometimes the coping mechanism becomes a part of our rigidity. I have to do this thing in order to thrive. But when we spend too much time there, our stress tolerance actually decreases substantially. So we really have to figure out how are we creating balance so that we can feel our feelings without getting so hyper focused on how we're feeling all day, every day. Sometimes we just need to live too, without always looking inward, because that too would be exhausting. But long story short, stay away from the drugs and alcohol, move into healthier coping mechanisms and know that you have one precious, beloved, beautiful body that is supposed to be here. So give it options for ways to thrive and swap them out. Have your regular go-tos. For the ones that are healthy, but none of us thrives when we are a one trick pony when it comes to our our healing journey either. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. I I one thing I I'll share with those that seems like a simple thing, but I will share that helped me ⁓ being a very visual person was post-it notes. I had post it notes all over the place reminding myself to breathe, reminding myself of the the the pieces that worked for me. Like I had a post-it note that said balloon and that meant like fill my belly like a balloon. But Like that's all I needed, right? I like I just needed, you know, I maybe it said blow up the balloon. I can't remember. But it like just little also little quirky fun things as well to like keep my attention and not feel like I was like nagging myself. Like to try to make it fun, try to make a game out of it. it but little visuals. And so I don't know, like just as humans, you know, whether you're I know a lot of us listening, well, some of the owners may be at a desk more so than than others, but ⁓ you know, on your phone or your desk or your car dash. I know a lot of us ⁓ ABA providers that that provide in home services or in our car a lot. I I would have like I had a post-it note in my car. ⁓ so that visual because especially as I was learning the new strategies, because my brain wouldn't think to go there. I needed some kind of like reminder and I didn't have someone following me around to remind me. So I had to try to make my own systems. speaker-0: Absolutely. I love that because many of us are visual people and we need a helper, right? But we're not gonna have like I would love to invite both of you over later and be like, hey, can you remind me that I'm supposed to do this, this, and this? But reality is we don't have that. So whatever you need to do, you know, set a reminder on your phone if you need to. ⁓ it's time for me to stretch. Set a reminder, it's time to whatever use the post-it now. Be your own helper, but don't expect it to happen magically. My magic wand has been busted for years. I've got to be intense about it. speaker-2: I know. If anyone has one, let me know. I'd love to borrow. speaker-0: No such luck, I wish. speaker-2: I know, right? ⁓ so I do we're kind of coming at the end of our time. I don't want to respect Sarah's time and I really love the direction that this went because I mean ultimately all of us all of you guys listening today are humans, right? And so I think we talk a lot about self care and how to like how important it is, like the whole oxygen mask on yourself first and to the to the owners out there, the leaders and the owners who are you know, taking care of themselves before they take care of their team and to help model these habits for their team and all the blah, you know, like Pollyanna like ideas, right? That are in reality can be so challenging. And so we really want to help paint that picture and give like actual tangible things to do. And I feel like we've done that. However, I wonder if there is anything that my gosh, Sarah, I could We could talk for three more hours and I would still want to continue talking about this because I'm so passionate about it. But is there anything that you wanted to wrap back around and discuss or cover from some of our earlier points or and or is there anything else that you want to add that could be, you know, helpful ⁓ for those listening? I don't know. I I'm gonna leave it up to you because I know that we left a few things open. ⁓ but I I want to give you that that the ability to decide where how you want to close up. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you for that. I think a couple of things come to mind. One is it's so interesting you use the oxygen mask analogy because sometimes we do have, and I'm guilty of it too, that black and white thinking of I need to start here with the oxygen mask before I can share it with anybody else. There's certainly some validity to that, but at the end of the day we need to remember that there's enough oxygen for all of us. So it doesn't have to be me versus them. It's how can we co-regulate? How can we create safety relationally? rather than I am me in the silo and you are you and I don't get to take care of you until I take care of me. There's enough oxygen for everybody. So I would like to normalize that and say it. I would also like to touch on there was another point we had, ⁓ I remember lucky, got lucky, I remember. ⁓ yeah, so we talked briefly at the beginning about how can we show up authentically In a situation where maybe we're a professional and we feel like, well, how am I supposed to be authentic when I'm also supposed to be professional in this moment? And if I don't suck it up, what's my other option? And this is where I'm going to bring a little bit of a concept developed by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg called nonviolent communication into the discussion. And I'm grossly oversimplifying it, but For our purposes today, start by noticing what you're feeling. Say it to yourself, even if you don't say it out loud. You could be in an interaction with a child, another adult, whoever it is. I am feeling dysregulated. I am feeling scared. I am feeling angry. Whatever it is. Notice what you are feeling, because even naming that internally draws on the research of Dan Siegel and many other people and name it to tame it, right? This is Simply the self-awareness to say this has a feeling, but I actually don't recommend saying I am angry, I am, whatever, because then we absorb it as an identity. If we can simply reframe that as I am feeling angry, scared, et cetera, we remind ourselves at a conscious and subconscious level that this is a feeling. It's gonna wash over us like a wave, like every other feeling we've ever had in the past. This is simply a snapshot in time. But begin with, I am feeling. Notice then what am I needing? And it's not I am needing them to stop doing X, Y, or Z. I know, I wish, I wish, yeah. But maybe if it's I'm feeling scared, I'll take that as an example. I am needing safety. That might be the need that I am trying to get met in that moment. And then I get curious about how I can show up for myself to meet that need in the moment. Maybe it's I need them to stop kicking me, but ideally it has nothing to do with what they are doing. If I am needing safety, maybe that means I need to remind myself that I can move my body. I don't have to stay here and get kicked or whatever it may be. I am going to create that safety that I am needing by being intentional in the very next choice that I am making. And where appropriate, we can verbalize these things. In fact, it can be really beneficial to help others understand where we are coming from. Hey, I am feeling scared right now. It's okay to say that. I am needing safety, therefore, I am moving my body and I'm making a request. Please keep your legs on the floor, whatever it might be. But simply being able to articulate that doesn't make us less professional. If anything, it can increase trust because sometimes the people in our presence need to be reminded we're human too, and we are trying to do our very best to show up alongside each other in emotionally competent ways. But we can't do that if we are pretending everything's fine when it's not. And it doesn't mean we need to blow up. Again, we've got that six seconds that we talked about. We can figure out what can I do to create safety in my body right now, or whatever our need might be. And with that, I think I just want to wrap up by saying how much gratitude I have for both of you and so many others who are listening to or watching this who are really curious about the compassionate side of ABA, the compassionate side of showing up as a human alongside other humans. Because at the end of the day, if you strip away all the professional degrees and all the training we've had, we're just doing our best to survive in the world. And we do that so much better. If we're real with one another. So I'm so thankful for those of you who are willing to see the human in front of you as opposed to the next case on a list or whatever it might be. You you really make a difference. And I'm grateful for you. speaker-2: ⁓ thank you for that. Thank you so much. such a great conversation. I'm so thankful for you. I'm glad that we were able to make this work. Yeah. ⁓ first through, you know, I I don't know. Like we've Sarah and I have gone back and forth for a couple of years now and trying to get her on and like our schedule just haven't. You know, sometimes things don't drive with schedules, they get difficult. And then technology. But I'll tell you. All of that was so worth it. It was so worth it. I really appreciate your time and ⁓ just showing up today and being you. I I appreciate that so much. speaker-0: ⁓ what a gift. Thank you. speaker-2: So I also want to take this moment as we wrap up to remind those of you that we do have a support group ⁓ free. ⁓ you just ⁓ there are the link is in the show notes, you just go there and ⁓ that will take you to the the form for the information that you need. And we actually it's a Discord group, so you do have to download Discord on your phone or the browser, but that all of that's free. ⁓ so it's free free to access it, free to be part of it. We do monthly live events, but then we also have lots of conversation to support each other throughout the month. So that is available at this time for owners and leaders and decision makers. ⁓ and we we we're gonna be opening it up to more groups ⁓ eventually. ⁓ so, anyways, ⁓ please come join us there. ⁓ we would love, we would love to have you even if in the beginning you just want to show up and and just watch and read and and and not interact, that's okay too. So all right. Well, thank you everyone for your time today. Thanks for showing up. Thanks for listening and ⁓ we'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us on ABA Business Leaders. speaker-1: We provide mentorship, courses, handbooks, billing support, credentialing, HIPAA support, web design, and more. Everything you need to build an ethical and sustainable ABA practice. speaker-2: You can find all of our resources at 3piesquared.com. speaker-1: Don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with other ABA business owners. speaker-2: See you next time, and remember, you don't have to build your practice alone. Okay.