Latest / ChangeMakers with Katie Goar / Episode 127: Janine Betsey, Director, Tax Credit Operations, GLICK

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Episode 127: Janine Betsey, Director, Tax Credit Operations, GLICK · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

0:05
Speaker 1: This is change Makers with Katie Gore finding the right
0:09
Speaker 1: solutions for the affordable housing community.
0:13
Speaker 2: Today's change Maker is Janine Betsi, the director of tax
0:18
Speaker 2: Credit Operations at the Gene b Glick Company, where she
0:22
Speaker 2: leads strategies to preserve and rehabilitate affordable housing communities using
0:28
Speaker 2: low income housing tax credits. Janine has a deep background
0:33
Speaker 2: and community development and a passion for helping people in
0:38
Speaker 2: affordable housing. I'm so excited to have her here on
0:41
Speaker 2: the change Makers podcast and to highlight everything that she
0:45
Speaker 2: is currently doing and to get to know her better.
0:47
Speaker 2: So Janine, welcome to the podcast.
0:51
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. You've had some amazing guests. I
0:54
Speaker 3: feel really honored to be one of them, so thank you.
0:59
Speaker 2: And it's pleasure to have somebody from Indianapolis too. So
1:03
Speaker 2: I want to dive deep because you know, it's all
1:05
Speaker 2: the rage right now with the fever and the pacers,
1:10
Speaker 2: and we can have some fun conversations related to Indianapolis.
1:14
Speaker 2: So let's get started though what I usually like to do.
1:19
Speaker 2: You know, I want to open it up to have
1:21
Speaker 2: you just kind of talk through your current role. But
1:25
Speaker 2: why don't you first start to tell us about how
1:28
Speaker 2: you got started in affordable housing, and just what your
1:31
Speaker 2: journey has been like to get you into that current role.
1:35
Speaker 3: Okay, So I worked out in Washington, d C. For
1:38
Speaker 3: a few years, and then when I moved back to Indianapolis,
1:41
Speaker 3: a colleague of mine who was working out a community
1:44
Speaker 3: development corporation, was like, Hey, I have this asset management
1:48
Speaker 3: job that you'd be perfect for. And I was like, really,
1:51
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about asset management and she's like, no,
1:54
Speaker 3: you know all about grant compliance, all these other things.
1:58
Speaker 3: Come on, apply for the job. So I applied for
2:01
Speaker 3: the job and worked for a community development corporation that
2:05
Speaker 3: worked in the downtown Indianapolis area, went on and got
2:10
Speaker 3: my master's degree, and then from the learnings at that
2:14
Speaker 3: particular agency, I went to become an executive director at
2:18
Speaker 3: another community development corporation called King Park Area Development Corporation.
2:24
Speaker 3: It was a very interesting time. We're talking like early
2:27
Speaker 3: two thousands, mid two thousands, so money was tight. Obama
2:33
Speaker 3: came in and implemented some really exciting programs, So neighborhood
2:37
Speaker 3: stabilization came out. We were one of five national Smart
2:41
Speaker 3: Growth districts in the country, so we got investments from
2:44
Speaker 3: Dot HUD coordination with IHCDA, and we really focused in
2:50
Speaker 3: on this area around the mon On Trail in Indianapolis,
2:53
Speaker 3: kind of sixteenth to twenty fifth Street. That's just continuing
2:56
Speaker 3: to grow and flourish from those initial investments that we
3:01
Speaker 3: made in two thousand and five. After that, I had
3:05
Speaker 3: the pleasure of working with Mike pre Petrie, who's the
3:08
Speaker 3: president of Merchants Bank of Indiana at and at the time,
3:12
Speaker 3: we had a Section eight property that was at the
3:15
Speaker 3: end of its tax credit compliance and we were trying
3:19
Speaker 3: to figure out what to do with it. Could we
3:21
Speaker 3: It was supposed to be home ownership, and it really
3:24
Speaker 3: wasn't set up for home ownership. So we had all
3:26
Speaker 3: these conversations about it, and then he says, you know, Janine,
3:30
Speaker 3: I have this small nonprofit and you know, I think
3:33
Speaker 3: you'd be great at running it. So I went to
3:37
Speaker 3: join Mike's team as one staff person, and we grew
3:42
Speaker 3: that organization into over one hundred million dollars of assets.
3:46
Speaker 2: We added.
3:48
Speaker 3: We came to twenty five hundred units and there was
3:52
Speaker 3: seven hundred and eighty three in there when I started,
3:56
Speaker 3: and I really got the bug for the deal. The projects,
4:01
Speaker 3: closing the projects I already had the passion and the
4:04
Speaker 3: nonprofit background of working with residents, but I really figured
4:08
Speaker 3: out how much the financial side made me tick. So
4:13
Speaker 3: at the time, we worked with a lot of developers
4:17
Speaker 3: that had never done four percent deals. So we had
4:21
Speaker 3: the pleasure of working with Glick, and once they decided
4:25
Speaker 3: to kind of build out a tax credit team, I
4:28
Speaker 3: was like, Oh, this is for me because the irony
4:31
Speaker 3: is the first place I ever lived as a child
4:36
Speaker 3: was a Glick property, and then the last place my
4:40
Speaker 3: grandma lived before she passed away was a Glick property.
4:45
Speaker 2: So I was like, this is.
4:47
Speaker 3: Meant for me. You know they we just do a
4:50
Speaker 3: great job with resident services, and we have all these
4:54
Speaker 3: amazing assets in high quality suburbs that were going back
4:59
Speaker 3: through and recapitalizing both the physical and the other people
5:06
Speaker 3: assets on site.
5:08
Speaker 2: When you grew up in that or when you first
5:11
Speaker 2: lived in that Click property, was it mixed income or
5:16
Speaker 2: do you remember anything that stands out from your time there?
5:20
Speaker 3: It was a mixed income property. It was a great townhouse.
5:24
Speaker 3: My parents were babies when they had me, so they
5:26
Speaker 3: were very young, and I do think when my dad
5:30
Speaker 3: first moved in, they when they moved in they qualified
5:33
Speaker 3: for Section eight at the time, and then they transitioned
5:37
Speaker 3: off of it, but and they could stay, which is important,
5:42
Speaker 3: you know. So, yes, it was a mixed income property,
5:45
Speaker 3: it had a pool, it was right by all kinds
5:48
Speaker 3: of amenities, so it was great.
5:53
Speaker 2: So you kind of had the trifecta there. You had
5:57
Speaker 2: some you know, subsidy associate, he had an excellent management
6:02
Speaker 2: company and a great location. So which is what jing
6:05
Speaker 2: Glick does very very well. Are those that nice trifecta there.
6:11
Speaker 2: And then in Indianapolis, which is a great market, just
6:15
Speaker 2: kind of thinking about the market dynamics. Indianapolis, I remember
6:19
Speaker 2: back in the I guess that would be the nineties
6:24
Speaker 2: really went through some substantial community development and it started
6:28
Speaker 2: creating all of those community development corporations and the Department
6:34
Speaker 2: of Metropolitan Development really got aggressive with the use of
6:39
Speaker 2: how they were curing slum and blight it with federal
6:44
Speaker 2: funds and so it really started a lot of development
6:48
Speaker 2: and it was featured in many national awards and so forth.
6:52
Speaker 2: But you know, now look at what those properties have become,
6:57
Speaker 2: and they're still standing strong and they have done exactly
7:00
Speaker 2: what the original goal was is to keep creating investment
7:04
Speaker 2: in those neighborhoods. Just thinking about the Indianapolis market, how
7:08
Speaker 2: have you seen that change through your time and your involvement,
7:12
Speaker 2: and maybe give us a glimpse of what's going on
7:15
Speaker 2: now with market dynamics.
7:18
Speaker 3: So I think it continues to evolve. And one of
7:21
Speaker 3: the good things that's really happened in the last ten
7:24
Speaker 3: to twelve years is organizations. What was King Park Area
7:28
Speaker 3: Development Corporation is now INTEND Indiana, and they're taking such
7:32
Speaker 3: a more active role in really trying to provide affordable
7:37
Speaker 3: opportunities in our best neighborhoods. So there's such a good
7:42
Speaker 3: focus on making sure that the affordable also can support
7:48
Speaker 3: the market. That was one of the really interesting things
7:51
Speaker 3: about NSP is that it went up to one hundred
7:53
Speaker 3: and twenty percent AMI, so it kind of hits that
7:56
Speaker 3: mid point in the market where you really need that
8:01
Speaker 3: because you've got your affordable buyers here with your subsidy,
8:04
Speaker 3: and then you've got your eighty two one twenty that
8:07
Speaker 3: just need a little bit of subsist and then you've
8:10
Speaker 3: got market. And sometimes when you don't have the middle
8:13
Speaker 3: you can't quite get to the market because the market says,
8:18
Speaker 3: why do I have to pay seventy thousand dollars more
8:21
Speaker 3: than x, you know, whereas when you have the flow,
8:25
Speaker 3: it just works a little better. So I see that
8:29
Speaker 3: it's difficult right now with the interest rate environment for
8:34
Speaker 3: affordable buyers and the appreciation, even in a market like
8:38
Speaker 3: Indianapolis that was not a high appreciator, in the last
8:42
Speaker 3: four to five years, it's been so significant that it's
8:46
Speaker 3: really pricing people out. And then it becomes this spiral
8:54
Speaker 3: effect because you have these eighty to one twenty percent
8:58
Speaker 3: renters in naturally affording you know, naturally occurring affordable rentals,
9:03
Speaker 3: trying to save, trying to get ready for that house,
9:06
Speaker 3: and there's not space for that lower income person that
9:11
Speaker 3: needs to be in that unit, right, So it creates
9:14
Speaker 3: this whole stranglehold in the housing market. And I really
9:20
Speaker 3: see that it's getting more intense here just because of
9:26
Speaker 3: all those factors.
9:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the market has really changed, and they usually
9:31
Speaker 2: put in Indianapolis bunch together with Columbus, Ohio as far
9:36
Speaker 2: as how it is radically shifting and quickly in the
9:39
Speaker 2: last five years, So that pinch on buyers, that pinch
9:44
Speaker 2: on affordable renters is really being exaggerated right now, which
9:49
Speaker 2: I guess folds nicely into what you guys are doing
9:52
Speaker 2: as far as your development and your rehab projects. So
9:56
Speaker 2: to try to get in front of that tide a
9:57
Speaker 2: little bit, click in what thirteen states, Why don't you
10:03
Speaker 2: tell us what you guys are doing and maybe give
10:08
Speaker 2: us some overview of those projects you're working on.
10:11
Speaker 3: Okay, So what we're doing is we're really looking back
10:15
Speaker 3: through our portfolio and saying we've taken incredibly good care
10:20
Speaker 3: of our properties. They're usually they're older than forty years.
10:24
Speaker 3: Kitchen cabinets get tired, you know, furnaces need replace you know,
10:29
Speaker 3: and those have been replaced on going wise, but in
10:32
Speaker 3: terms of how do we really give a fresh update
10:37
Speaker 3: for our residents and our properties. So we work with
10:41
Speaker 3: a company called CRG Residential on a rapid rehab model.
10:45
Speaker 3: It's fantastic where you're going in. We're doing all new kitchens,
10:49
Speaker 3: new bats. We're putting in solid surface countertops like you're
10:52
Speaker 3: seeing in any suburban partner apartments. We're enhancing on site amenities,
10:58
Speaker 3: building dog parts. This year we.
11:00
Speaker 2: Implemented like we're doing.
11:02
Speaker 3: A package of you know, what do the residents really want?
11:06
Speaker 3: We have all these common areas, do we need new tables,
11:10
Speaker 3: Do we need new couches, Do we want to outfit
11:13
Speaker 3: a craft room? You know, So we're trying to also
11:17
Speaker 3: be responsive that now we have these new magical spaces,
11:20
Speaker 3: how do we enhance some of them. But we're also
11:24
Speaker 3: taking care of you know, electrical panels, we're modernizing elevators
11:31
Speaker 3: that haven't been modernized in fifty years. You know, We've
11:35
Speaker 3: taken incredibly good care of what we have, but that
11:38
Speaker 3: only gets us so far. So we're and as part
11:43
Speaker 3: of the process what happens when we're working on the
11:46
Speaker 3: physical rehab, we're really revisiting our services and what we're
11:50
Speaker 3: doing for residents and saying, okay, as we just have
11:56
Speaker 3: a phenomenal residence services department, and we've been really focused
12:00
Speaker 3: on family and senior services, and so we have this
12:06
Speaker 3: model where we're focusing on the ten dimensions of self sufficiency,
12:10
Speaker 3: you know, with housing stability being the most important, food
12:14
Speaker 3: security second, you know, utilities on and kind of working
12:18
Speaker 3: down that list with residents in one on one and
12:22
Speaker 3: group situations. So we're refreshing the physical assets at the
12:27
Speaker 3: same time that we're enhancing the service assets. So it's
12:31
Speaker 3: a really special time it's hard, you know, rehabbing two
12:38
Speaker 3: hundred and four units in less than six months is.
12:40
Speaker 2: A big wall.
12:43
Speaker 3: But the other thing that we do is we I
12:45
Speaker 3: always call it like a special team, you know, like
12:47
Speaker 3: that would come on the field at the football game.
12:50
Speaker 3: And we have a special region that when your property
12:53
Speaker 3: is under construction, you're under the special team, so that
12:56
Speaker 3: regional property manager supports the site, has their own associates,
13:01
Speaker 3: helps with the first year certification. Okay, the teaching of
13:04
Speaker 3: the tax credit, because most of our properties have only
13:07
Speaker 3: been Section eight, so layering on the tax credit is
13:10
Speaker 3: a whole new intimidation factor. So we really provide the
13:15
Speaker 3: support and services to make it as easy as possible
13:19
Speaker 3: for the site and the residents. So we're you know,
13:25
Speaker 3: we do a lot in Indiana, but we also have
13:28
Speaker 3: worked in Kentucky and we have a project funded in Wisconsin.
13:33
Speaker 3: We're trying to get one of our projects funded in Georgia.
13:37
Speaker 3: They make fun of me at the office because I
13:39
Speaker 3: love bonds. I think they're fascinating and amazing. There's nothing
13:43
Speaker 3: like a tax exempt bond and an m tablaan. It's
13:47
Speaker 3: just it's just neat stuff. But we're really learning the
13:53
Speaker 3: nuances of working in other states and just trying to
13:58
Speaker 3: be cognizant of working throughout our portfolio where we can.
14:06
Speaker 2: So just stereotyping Glick. You guys are really known for
14:10
Speaker 2: customer service. You're known for amazing compliance. But there's also
14:15
Speaker 2: a nice niche that you guys do is curb appeal.
14:19
Speaker 2: And even with the properties being aged, you can drive
14:23
Speaker 2: around a property and say that's a click property before
14:29
Speaker 2: you even see the sign. And that's what I like
14:33
Speaker 2: so much about your guys's model. And then you know
14:35
Speaker 2: this is obviously you know, before all of the construction
14:38
Speaker 2: and rehab, even on aged properties, you guys do such
14:42
Speaker 2: a nice job. The files are tight. You know you
14:46
Speaker 2: guys are responsive to your residence. You guys have curb
14:48
Speaker 2: appeal nailed down, and it's often the gold standard that
14:53
Speaker 2: we talk about being a compliance entity that goes out
14:57
Speaker 2: and sees the difference. How did you guys adopt that
15:02
Speaker 2: and how do you maintain that because people aren't driving
15:08
Speaker 2: by and saying, ah, that's subsidized when they look at
15:11
Speaker 2: your guys's housing stock.
15:13
Speaker 3: YEP. So that was very important to mister Glick. Kurb
15:17
Speaker 3: appeal was number one and he would go around and
15:22
Speaker 3: visit all the properties on a schedule. Apparently he came
15:26
Speaker 3: on a helicopter and people would get really excited about it.
15:30
Speaker 3: I never got to see that, but so it was
15:34
Speaker 3: always a very important two gene and the company today
15:41
Speaker 3: that the properties don't look affordable, that you can't tell
15:46
Speaker 3: the difference, and there has I've had a colleague who
15:51
Speaker 3: told me that when he first started, he was driven
15:54
Speaker 3: around and said, and just like you said, said, this
15:57
Speaker 3: is the gold standard. If you want a property and
16:00
Speaker 3: it's going to be affordable, it needs to look like this,
16:03
Speaker 3: you know. And we do have a number of affordable
16:05
Speaker 3: properties that have pools and other amenities that you typically
16:09
Speaker 3: see in market rate developments, and we maintain those. We
16:15
Speaker 3: do just make sure that that curb peel is good.
16:19
Speaker 3: I will say some on some of our rehabs we've
16:21
Speaker 3: actually been like, wow, we've really planted too many trees.
16:25
Speaker 3: We're going to have to go back take out, you know,
16:28
Speaker 3: ten of these eighty trees because the maintenance people say
16:32
Speaker 3: the grass doesn't grow.
16:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, but those are lessons learned though. So you know,
16:37
Speaker 2: when all the leaves are falling, you're like, wow, this
16:40
Speaker 2: is a mess.
16:42
Speaker 3: And you know, those are the those are the things
16:45
Speaker 3: that we budget for every year when when bushes are
16:47
Speaker 3: out of control, they'll have like, Okay, we're gonna get
16:51
Speaker 3: we'll fix this building this year, We'll do this building
16:53
Speaker 3: next year. But it is just an ongoing budgetary requirement
16:59
Speaker 3: that we maintain, pain and enhance that landscaping because we
17:04
Speaker 3: want you know, we don't call them apartments. We call
17:07
Speaker 3: them apartment homes.
17:08
Speaker 2: You know.
17:09
Speaker 3: We don't call them units. We call them residents. You know,
17:13
Speaker 3: for so many people they that live in rentals, myself included.
17:19
Speaker 3: You know, you're bringing home your children to these homes,
17:23
Speaker 3: you know, and we want them to be the best
17:27
Speaker 3: homes that they can be, because some people may never
17:32
Speaker 3: own a home, you know, and some people might, but
17:36
Speaker 3: it needs to be a positive interim experience because that's
17:42
Speaker 3: how people thrive.
17:44
Speaker 2: Speaking of how people thrive, I want you, if you're
17:47
Speaker 2: able to give an overview of mister Glick himself, because
17:54
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we forget about the legacy. We look
17:58
Speaker 2: at like the end product of what he creates it
18:00
Speaker 2: and what he did for the community and everything he built.
18:04
Speaker 2: But then we don't we forget that his early ramp
18:09
Speaker 2: into the business and the kind of person he was.
18:12
Speaker 2: So can you for those who don't know, can you
18:16
Speaker 2: give some of that story to us for more context.
18:19
Speaker 3: Sure. So he originally started as a homebuilder because he
18:23
Speaker 3: wanted World War Two veterans to have homes to come to.
18:28
Speaker 3: So him and his wife started out by building homes
18:33
Speaker 3: and then they determined along the route and it probably
18:37
Speaker 3: was when Section eight came out and some other tools
18:41
Speaker 3: to develop apartments back in the day. So then they
18:45
Speaker 3: decided to move more into the multifamily realm and he
18:50
Speaker 3: built a succinct team that worked on construction management and
18:57
Speaker 3: the compliance side. Kathy, who was there for many many years,
19:03
Speaker 3: started off in an accounting role and was the vice
19:07
Speaker 3: president of development when she left. Jim Bessesesi worked there
19:12
Speaker 3: till he was eighty. He was head of construction and
19:15
Speaker 3: they just really would figure out what worked well and
19:20
Speaker 3: duplicate it, you know. So you look at many of
19:24
Speaker 3: our properties and they look similar, you know, because that
19:28
Speaker 3: was what worked. You needed some flats, you needed some townhouses,
19:32
Speaker 3: and you know, they just would refine it over and
19:35
Speaker 3: over again. The other thing was mister Glick is known
19:40
Speaker 3: for being incredibly generous to both the wider Indianapolis and
19:47
Speaker 3: related community as well as to his employees. So they
19:52
Speaker 3: really prioritize family benefits that are good for people, and
20:00
Speaker 3: they just really had a caring environment. So, you know,
20:05
Speaker 3: I think the other thing that I see is there
20:08
Speaker 3: was a lot of promotion from within and empowerment of
20:14
Speaker 3: the existing employees, and you see with the next generation
20:21
Speaker 3: at the HELM that same care and concern and really
20:25
Speaker 3: the modeling of those family values.
20:28
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the Glick Housing Foundation because that's also
20:33
Speaker 2: something very unique for what you guys are doing. Can
20:36
Speaker 2: you give us a couple of ideas of the imprint
20:40
Speaker 2: or how some of those projects roll out.
20:44
Speaker 3: Yes, So anything that is that is purchased at this
20:50
Speaker 3: point by the company is all for the Glick Housing
20:53
Speaker 3: Foundation to build up long term assets for the foundation.
20:57
Speaker 3: And when properties are purchased that don't have a service coordinator,
21:02
Speaker 3: the Housing Foundation commits to funding either a part time
21:05
Speaker 3: or a full time service coordinator on site. So we've
21:10
Speaker 3: been buying. We've been focused on preserving Section eight properties
21:14
Speaker 3: that are for sale as well as other kind of
21:17
Speaker 3: naturally occurring affordable properties, also tax credit properties that are
21:23
Speaker 3: at the end of their compliance period. So we're focused
21:27
Speaker 3: on preserving what is going out to the market bringing
21:31
Speaker 3: it into the portfolio. Sometimes it is slated for a
21:35
Speaker 3: tax credit rehab, sometimes it's not, and then you know,
21:39
Speaker 3: we once it's purchased, there's an internal reserve that is
21:44
Speaker 3: used to immediately make you know, if it doesn't have
21:48
Speaker 3: a playground and it's a family property or the playgrounds tired.
21:52
Speaker 3: Those are the first improvements we make. What can we
21:54
Speaker 3: do to show people that we care and we want
21:57
Speaker 3: to enhance their physical assets. And then you know, some
22:01
Speaker 3: other might be used on deferred maintenance or other items
22:04
Speaker 3: that came up during inspection, but the goal is to
22:10
Speaker 3: immediately just stabilize the properties if they weren't. You know,
22:15
Speaker 3: some of them were stable when we bought them, and
22:17
Speaker 3: that's not the case. But other times we're just trying
22:20
Speaker 3: to stabilize and let the residents know we care and
22:24
Speaker 3: then just start working with the residents on what they need.
22:29
Speaker 3: The Housing Foundation has been very aggressive in the last
22:33
Speaker 3: few years in purchasing these new properties, and we've just
22:39
Speaker 3: have some really nice assets that have come online for
22:42
Speaker 3: the Housing Foundation.
22:45
Speaker 2: Is there a project that you're particularly proud of or
22:49
Speaker 2: that you want to share. Are you allowed to have
22:50
Speaker 2: a favorite that maybe it was because of a deal
22:54
Speaker 2: that you did that you didn't think was going to happen.
22:58
Speaker 2: Something like that you can share with us, well, I.
23:01
Speaker 3: Will say yes. So one of the properties that we
23:04
Speaker 3: did rehab was in Flint, Michigan, and it was with
23:07
Speaker 3: It was our first project with Mischta. It was a
23:11
Speaker 3: Section eight conversion to you know, tax credit, and it
23:17
Speaker 3: was important to me because it was located in a
23:21
Speaker 3: high quality suburb of Flint. It didn't have the pipe issues,
23:24
Speaker 3: it didn't have some of the water issues that are
23:27
Speaker 3: really detrimental in the inner city in Flint, and it
23:31
Speaker 3: was located in a really good school district. So we
23:36
Speaker 3: had a lot of you know, just sophisticated residents that
23:41
Speaker 3: had moved to our apartment because they could get quality
23:45
Speaker 3: i EP services for their children. And that was a
23:52
Speaker 3: harder rehab, but we really worked with the residents to
24:00
Speaker 3: sure it was as easy as possible, you know. And
24:03
Speaker 3: we we worked with one resident and helped her secure
24:09
Speaker 3: additional housing she had. She was over income from the
24:13
Speaker 3: tax credit project, not required to move, but we worked
24:17
Speaker 3: with her and really got her in a great position
24:20
Speaker 3: in a home to rent for her and her children
24:24
Speaker 3: that it was just pretty special, you know, because she
24:28
Speaker 3: was so adamant, like this is my school.
24:31
Speaker 2: I need to be here, you.
24:33
Speaker 3: Know, and you you know, I think sometimes there's a
24:38
Speaker 3: there's not a real understanding of who actually is a
24:43
Speaker 3: low to moderate income renter and what they are. And
24:47
Speaker 3: there's very many hard working folks out there that are
24:52
Speaker 3: making a way for their family and are very sophisticated
24:56
Speaker 3: and they're moving to the best places for their families.
25:00
Speaker 3: So to be able to support residents like that and
25:05
Speaker 3: help them stay if they if that's the right outcome,
25:09
Speaker 3: or if it's not, helping them end up in a
25:11
Speaker 3: better place, is really meaningful because that's just that's what
25:18
Speaker 3: we want for ourselves and our families, and that's what
25:21
Speaker 3: we want for our residents.
25:22
Speaker 2: Just one of those core human basic needs of safety, security,
25:27
Speaker 2: decent housing. But it's not a given, is it. And
25:32
Speaker 2: I've actually read some recent statistics that say about eighty
25:36
Speaker 2: percent of people who are living in affordable housing are
25:39
Speaker 2: all full time, working of people. So it is not
25:45
Speaker 2: the stereotype that's out there, and I think the statistics
25:51
Speaker 2: have maybe even changed over the years as to what's happening.
25:55
Speaker 2: So you bring up a good point. You know, it's
25:58
Speaker 2: people who cannot afford rents that are skyrocketed to you know,
26:03
Speaker 2: the twelve hundred twenty five hundred dollars to be in
26:08
Speaker 2: those neighborhoods and with those school systems. So do you
26:15
Speaker 2: It leads me to another thought. Here are you seeing
26:19
Speaker 2: a lot of public private partnerships that are that are
26:25
Speaker 2: being required for you to make the deal happen? Is
26:29
Speaker 2: the is that the typical model or you guys, you
26:32
Speaker 2: know kind of keeping it all contained within the click
26:35
Speaker 2: family of how you're doing these development deals. I do.
26:39
Speaker 3: We do really work with pilots, tax pilots, especially in Indiana,
26:44
Speaker 3: you can get a reduction on your taxes in exchange
26:48
Speaker 3: for providing services to residents and so that is a
26:52
Speaker 3: tool that we utilize. But usually we are able to
26:58
Speaker 3: do them without a number of public private partnerships, so
27:02
Speaker 3: we are able to mostly keep it in house and
27:07
Speaker 3: get them done. It's it's more, it's more difficult because
27:13
Speaker 3: most of our properties are not in a qualified since
27:15
Speaker 3: this track, so they don't get the boost on a
27:19
Speaker 3: four percent project, which a lot of projects need. But
27:25
Speaker 3: but we've been able to figure it out and I
27:28
Speaker 3: always say that is like the blessing of our properties
27:32
Speaker 3: is that many of them are in suburban areas where
27:36
Speaker 3: you would not be able to put back any apartment complex,
27:39
Speaker 3: let alone an affordable one. But it's also the curse
27:43
Speaker 3: because then it's like we never get the boost, you know.
27:46
Speaker 2: Right, so right, So one other thing I was thinking about.
27:51
Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned Kathy overby tell her. I said, Hello,
27:54
Speaker 2: I haven't talked to her in a little bit. I
27:56
Speaker 2: hope she's enjoying retirement, I'm sir. But when you were
28:02
Speaker 2: mentioning her name it she was such an icon in
28:07
Speaker 2: trying to make well for many reasons, but for trying
28:11
Speaker 2: to make the innovative policy pieces happen and come together
28:16
Speaker 2: to say like, Okay, this is how it really works
28:18
Speaker 2: in the field, this is how the deals need to
28:20
Speaker 2: be done. And she used her voice so well to
28:23
Speaker 2: make that happen. Are you seeing any trends right now
28:27
Speaker 2: on innovative policy making moving forward? Like what's happening in
28:33
Speaker 2: that space? What changes are happening in order to make
28:37
Speaker 2: the deal better faster for you guys who are out
28:41
Speaker 2: there doing it. What do you see on the horizon
28:44
Speaker 2: right now?
28:45
Speaker 3: Well, I think the big thing will be what happens
28:47
Speaker 3: with the tax bill and the proposed kind of twenty
28:51
Speaker 3: five percent test. I've been thinking about this. I'll be like,
28:55
Speaker 3: this is really the third iteration of crazy change I've
28:59
Speaker 3: seen in my career, and so I'm just I think
29:04
Speaker 3: the twenty five percent test is great. I think the
29:07
Speaker 3: stabilization of additional credits is great. What I've noticed is
29:11
Speaker 3: it always comes at not the best time, you know.
29:14
Speaker 3: So I think we'll get the twenty five percent test.
29:18
Speaker 3: There's going to be more credits, and investors are already
29:22
Speaker 3: pulling back some on what they're paying and what and
29:26
Speaker 3: even investors that don't want to invest anymore. So I
29:29
Speaker 3: think initially, I think it'll be hard, and I think
29:34
Speaker 3: it'll dramatically change the debt tools people are using you
29:39
Speaker 3: because people use an M tab loan or all these
29:42
Speaker 3: loans that are backed by the bonds that you're getting
29:45
Speaker 3: on the project. But if the bonds go down to
29:48
Speaker 3: twenty five percent, you're not going to be able to
29:50
Speaker 3: use that, right right, So I think that there is
29:55
Speaker 3: a big shift coming regardless, and I think once they
30:01
Speaker 3: once we know what opportunity zones are going to look like,
30:04
Speaker 3: if there's a twenty five percent test, I think there'll
30:06
Speaker 3: be a lot of scrambling. Okay, we're going to have
30:10
Speaker 3: to do things differently. You know, maybe people will go
30:12
Speaker 3: back to let's do it to twenty three f again,
30:15
Speaker 3: you know. But but right now, I see a lot
30:20
Speaker 3: of people in a holding pattern. And I would say
30:23
Speaker 3: this year we've been more strategic than in prior years.
30:27
Speaker 3: And we really looked at CRA markets before we decided
30:32
Speaker 3: which projects we were going to underwrite for the year,
30:35
Speaker 3: because I'm like, we you know, pricing's going down, our
30:38
Speaker 3: projects don't.
30:39
Speaker 2: Have a boost.
30:40
Speaker 3: We've got to put forth our best projects in the
30:44
Speaker 3: best CRA areas because we're the best sponsor to get
30:48
Speaker 3: the best equity. But I think I am positive changes
30:54
Speaker 3: coming and I'm trying to think about, you know, what
31:00
Speaker 3: we're going to do differently when that happens.
31:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's been fascinating to kind of see. But
31:08
Speaker 2: you know, regardless of what the definitions are or the
31:14
Speaker 2: allocations and stuff, you know, the need for housing isn't changing, right,
31:19
Speaker 2: so you know, we've got to do something in regards
31:23
Speaker 2: to making sure that we can get more in the
31:24
Speaker 2: pipeline and still have the tools to go through the process.
31:30
Speaker 2: So I want to switch back and go back to
31:34
Speaker 2: something we were talking about earlier. You mentioned that you
31:38
Speaker 2: were a president of Merchants Affordable Housing Corporation, and we talked.
31:43
Speaker 2: We touched a little bit about some of those assets.
31:47
Speaker 2: And the circular loop here is, as I'm thinking out loud,
31:53
Speaker 2: is you know when you look at that type of
31:56
Speaker 2: housing corporation that you were in, there is there still
32:01
Speaker 2: a need for more of those types of affordable housing
32:05
Speaker 2: corporations or I'm thinking about like the tool by which
32:09
Speaker 2: this happened right any commentary.
32:13
Speaker 3: There, Absolutely that was actually very intentional. Mike Petrie and
32:19
Speaker 3: I were looking around the country. One, Indianapolis has a
32:23
Speaker 3: small number of CDFIs compared to cities of our size. Secondarily,
32:28
Speaker 3: we didn't have a bridge Housing immercy housing one of
32:33
Speaker 3: a really large nonprofit developer with a balance sheet. So
32:38
Speaker 3: we set out to build that because we just didn't
32:42
Speaker 3: have any so and the idea was always that we
32:47
Speaker 3: wanted other people to also do that. So, like intent,
32:52
Speaker 3: Indiana really built up its CDFI and is doing both
32:58
Speaker 3: home ownership and some developer lending. But I personally believe
33:02
Speaker 3: there's room for more of that in the market. And
33:06
Speaker 3: you do see around the state of Indiana some other
33:09
Speaker 3: organizations that are growing like that. But it keeps Indiana
33:15
Speaker 3: and Indianapolis from being competitive because we don't have those
33:19
Speaker 3: kind of super charged entities, and we need more of
33:25
Speaker 3: them if we really want to tackle the lack of
33:29
Speaker 3: affordable units.
33:31
Speaker 2: Exactly. And I think that the appetite in the market
33:35
Speaker 2: and everything's there, so it's like the platforms there, it's
33:38
Speaker 2: just we need some launching, don't we.
33:41
Speaker 3: We do. And I think the other thing is just
33:45
Speaker 3: really like no one knows what the resources are going
33:47
Speaker 3: to be. You know, is home going to be there,
33:50
Speaker 3: CDBG going to be there, and those have those switches
33:55
Speaker 3: have gone on and off for many, many years, so
33:59
Speaker 3: it's not anything new, but there's a greater sense of uncertainty.
34:05
Speaker 3: And there were so many amazing resources. The ARPA fonds,
34:12
Speaker 3: you know, NSP was an amingling tool, you know, so
34:18
Speaker 3: it's you know, whether opportunity zones or something else can
34:22
Speaker 3: be capitalized on like that, and we'll really tell if
34:25
Speaker 3: we can increase production.
34:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you kind of even go through the cycles.
34:30
Speaker 2: I call them the acronym soup or the alphabet soup.
34:33
Speaker 2: You know you'll have NSP one, NSP two, and then
34:36
Speaker 2: you know you've got everybody's got all the acronyms. But
34:41
Speaker 2: we'll we'll work within the framework and get it spent
34:44
Speaker 2: doing the right things, won't We Absolutely?
34:47
Speaker 3: And that's what I tell all the young developers. I'm
34:49
Speaker 3: just like, always be ready. You never know what's coming.
34:53
Speaker 3: Something could come from the state. You know, they're all
34:57
Speaker 3: kinds of things. You just you always got to have
34:59
Speaker 3: things ready to go because song's always around the bend YEP.
35:04
Speaker 2: I want to do a shout out to a couple
35:07
Speaker 2: of awards that you've gotten, and I'm gonna look at
35:10
Speaker 2: my list here, but you have been mentioned on the
35:14
Speaker 2: Indianapolis business journals forty under forty. You have also been
35:19
Speaker 2: mentioned in the Indie Star Women to Watch categories. You've
35:23
Speaker 2: won national awards and state awards for your leadership style.
35:29
Speaker 2: Tell us not just you know. I mean, an award
35:34
Speaker 2: is great, but it's it's capturing who you are and
35:37
Speaker 2: what you're doing. So tell us, like, what does you know,
35:44
Speaker 2: what does kind of like working in this industry? What
35:47
Speaker 2: does it do for you?
35:48
Speaker 3: Like?
35:48
Speaker 2: Why are you doing it? The deals are hard there's
35:52
Speaker 2: never enough funding. But why are you doing it? To me?
35:59
Speaker 3: Housing is literally the most important thing that.
36:04
Speaker 2: We can do for people.
36:08
Speaker 3: You see people in crisis and they cannot stabilize if
36:13
Speaker 3: they don't have a home. And you see children in
36:18
Speaker 3: crisis and they cannot learn and grow if they're not home.
36:26
Speaker 3: You know, there's definitely other factors that play into that.
36:30
Speaker 3: But I grew up in apartments. I brought home my
36:35
Speaker 3: children to apartments, and I mean, weirdly, I probably know
36:39
Speaker 3: all the apartments in Indianapolis and their old names, so
36:44
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh.
36:45
Speaker 2: You mean Nora Pines.
36:46
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's something on the Moon on now or
36:48
Speaker 3: North north Side on the trail or.
36:50
Speaker 2: Whatever it is.
36:51
Speaker 3: But you watch all these iterations of the apartments and
36:56
Speaker 3: you just want them to be what they want, or
37:00
Speaker 3: to me or to the friends I grew up with,
37:03
Speaker 3: you know, my friends in high school that got to
37:05
Speaker 3: go to North Central because they could live in affordable apartments.
37:09
Speaker 3: You know, So I do it because I just grew
37:15
Speaker 3: up in apartments. Home ownership was really we only lived
37:20
Speaker 3: in a house once. We rented some houses, and it
37:24
Speaker 3: it I important to live in a house today, But
37:29
Speaker 3: it just never seemed like it was attainable. So I
37:31
Speaker 3: just want the apartment experience, especially for affordable and moderate
37:37
Speaker 3: income renters, to be as good as it is for
37:40
Speaker 3: market rate renters. You know, when you come home and
37:43
Speaker 3: you have the same solid surface countertop is that twenty
37:47
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars apartment. It teaches you that you have
37:51
Speaker 3: the same value as everybody else, And when you don't
37:57
Speaker 3: feel like you have value, it translates into everything you
38:01
Speaker 3: do and you are, And you know, I've always just
38:06
Speaker 3: wanted people to feel like they have value.
38:11
Speaker 2: One of the ways I see this most obvious is
38:15
Speaker 2: when you look at how people do their laundry in
38:19
Speaker 2: their apartments, and when you talk about value and lifestyle,
38:25
Speaker 2: you know, it's it is that is to me, is
38:28
Speaker 2: always symbolic to say how are you doing daily life
38:32
Speaker 2: in an apartment? And so many affordable housing communities haven't
38:36
Speaker 2: had individual laundry hookup and a lot of that was
38:40
Speaker 2: the part of the time. You know that the sixties
38:44
Speaker 2: or seventies when they were built, and that the laundromat
38:48
Speaker 2: and the way laundry was done. But like when you
38:52
Speaker 2: really break that apart and say, do working people have
38:55
Speaker 2: access to do their own laundry within their own unit
38:59
Speaker 2: or do they go to have to go to a
39:00
Speaker 2: laundry matter or is there an on site laundry? And like,
39:02
Speaker 2: to me that just like there's pieces of this that
39:07
Speaker 2: people don't even think about when you build units or
39:11
Speaker 2: when you're living in subsidized housing. And it's it's not
39:17
Speaker 2: a poverty murker, okay, but it it just symbolizes so
39:23
Speaker 2: many other things that are being signaled with where people live.
39:29
Speaker 2: And you know that's a small piece. You know, you've
39:31
Speaker 2: got access to healthcare, you've got access to schools. But
39:35
Speaker 2: when you put them all together, what are apartments doing?
39:39
Speaker 2: Are they enhancing their lives so they can move up
39:44
Speaker 2: or are they keeping them in different cycles? So what
39:50
Speaker 2: I like about what Glick does so well is you
39:54
Speaker 2: guys look at that comprehensive continuum and you're not just saying,
39:58
Speaker 2: you know, hey, there's you know, here's your rent and
40:01
Speaker 2: this is when it's due. You know, this is when
40:03
Speaker 2: it's due. You guys really look at that comprehensive continuum.
40:07
Speaker 2: How speak to some of that in because it's something
40:11
Speaker 2: different than what a lot of other companies do. Yes, no,
40:16
Speaker 2: we really do.
40:18
Speaker 3: It's it's kind of the thing of when you when
40:22
Speaker 3: you work with somebody like that, when you're a property
40:25
Speaker 3: manager on site, you literally see people on their best
40:28
Speaker 3: and their worst days, you know, because they live there,
40:32
Speaker 3: they're coming to you, they know you, They bring you successes,
40:36
Speaker 3: they bring new challenges, and like you when you started
40:41
Speaker 3: it out and you talked about customer service being a
40:44
Speaker 3: high priority, it's it's really mean.
40:47
Speaker 2: It really means.
40:48
Speaker 3: Something to Glick how the team interacts with the humans,
40:52
Speaker 3: with our residents and treating them with care and concern
40:57
Speaker 3: on their best and their worst days, because so many
41:03
Speaker 3: when you're not doing that, just to your point, you're
41:05
Speaker 3: just reinforcing the cycles and then and that is never
41:10
Speaker 3: anything I want to be a part of, you know,
41:12
Speaker 3: I do not want to reinforce systemic barriers, and so
41:18
Speaker 3: we work really hard to break down those systemic barriers.
41:23
Speaker 3: And just they are so intentional about the programs. You know,
41:28
Speaker 3: we have a partnership with Gleaners. They bring food boxes
41:31
Speaker 3: on site when we have when we're doing our rehabs,
41:35
Speaker 3: we know not everybody has transportation for the three days.
41:39
Speaker 3: They might need to stay at a hotel, so we
41:41
Speaker 3: help them get there, we help them pack up It's
41:44
Speaker 3: not a shame game of you know, oh you have
41:47
Speaker 3: all this stuff, it's you know, how do we help
41:49
Speaker 3: you get ready for this enhancement to your properties?
41:56
Speaker 2: Now I lost my train of thoughts. I mean, I
42:00
Speaker 2: just I like to highlight what you guys do, because
42:03
Speaker 2: it really is it's more than the bricks and sticks
42:06
Speaker 2: as they say it is.
42:08
Speaker 3: It is. I mean, services are a core competency and
42:12
Speaker 3: component of every property, whether they have a on site
42:17
Speaker 3: coordinator or not. And we've been working to pilot some
42:21
Speaker 3: other items where if we don't have a HUD funded
42:24
Speaker 3: service coordinator, it's not a foundation project or the property
42:28
Speaker 3: has less of a need based on the residents that
42:32
Speaker 3: live there. We're still trying to figure out how we
42:35
Speaker 3: can get more services on site because it's just it's
42:41
Speaker 3: the most important thing we can do. Well, Janine, I
42:45
Speaker 3: appreciate you taking the time. Why don't you close this
42:48
Speaker 3: out here and give us some encouragement to.
42:52
Speaker 2: Just keep pushing forward.
42:54
Speaker 3: Okay, I would say everything happens in a cycle, and
43:01
Speaker 3: if the cycle is bad, I can assure you there
43:05
Speaker 3: are enough smart people out there that are going to
43:08
Speaker 3: figure out how to make it work. I've seen that
43:12
Speaker 3: over and over in my career. There's so many smart,
43:15
Speaker 3: talented people that work in this field and don't despair
43:20
Speaker 3: because something is around the bend that will help it
43:23
Speaker 3: get better.
43:26
Speaker 2: And you know, we've seen that with a lot of
43:27
Speaker 2: different programs where you know, people have surged, nonprofits have surged,
43:33
Speaker 2: the financing ends up coming in at the last minute.
43:37
Speaker 2: So it's part of all of our resilience stories, isn't it.
43:41
Speaker 3: It is it is, and affordable housing is definitely resilient.
43:46
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Well, Janine, thank you so much for
43:50
Speaker 2: joining us. It's been a pleasure to host you and
43:52
Speaker 2: hear everything that Glick is doing and what the Indianapolis
43:56
Speaker 2: market is doing. So thank you very much. It was
43:59
Speaker 2: my pleasure.
44:00
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Katie.
44:02
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Change Makers with Katie Gore. To
44:05
Speaker 1: find out more about Katie, go to quad L dot com.
44:09
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44:13
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