Latest / Finding God at Work / 7: The Reluctant Entrepreneur (Dr. Benjamin Andrews of Mosaic Center for Psychological Wholeness)

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7: The Reluctant Entrepreneur (Dr. Benjamin Andrews of Mosaic Center for Psychological Wholeness) · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at findinggodatwork.org.
0:28
Our current series is A Mysterious Business, bringing
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ministry and marketplace wisdom together.
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Today we've got an interview with a special
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guest, Ben Andrews, who is a psychologist and
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the founder of Mosaic Center for Psychological Wholeness.
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Thanks for joining us, Ben.
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Glad to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Absolutely.
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So I'd love to just hear kind of
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the story of how did you choose to
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become a psychologist and then also how did
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you end up starting your own practice, Mosaic,
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just the two to three minute version of
1:04
your professional and entrepreneurial journey?
1:07
That's a great question.
1:09
We'll try to keep it in that that
1:11
time frame.
1:13
You know, I got into psychology early on
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in a way.
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I think I was a little kid when
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I first learned that counseling was a profession.
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I think I was like seven or eight.
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And I was like, oh, I want to
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do that.
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And it doesn't really matter that there's a
1:33
lot of ways to help people or that
1:34
I didn't even know what counseling was.
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As a parent now, I understand that those
1:38
things don't matter to kids.
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They just latch onto something.
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So I was like, yeah, I just want
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to be a counselor.
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And my parents immediately were like, whoa, glad
1:49
you want to help.
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But like a lot of people go into
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counseling and they lose their faith.
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Maybe you can find something else.
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And so I kind of promptly ditched it
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and, you know, got into being a garbage
2:01
man or an astronaut or president or whatever
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kids want to be.
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And sometime in high school, I rediscovered psychology
2:08
as this interesting thing where you could learn
2:10
about yourself and take a test and answer
2:13
some questions and they'd tell you about your
2:15
personality.
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And then in college, I was studying it,
2:19
but I really wanted to be a seminarian.
2:21
I wanted to be a professor of Greek
2:23
or Hebrew or something.
2:25
And God made it very clear to me
2:28
in a way that it's probably beyond our
2:30
time frame, but that that wasn't what he
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was really planning for me.
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And I kind of went into psychology by
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default because it was the only other thing
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that I was interested in.
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By the time I got to grad school,
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I knew I wanted to help people who
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were suffering and I didn't know how.
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And grad school seemed like a way to
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learn a little more.
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And then I made the discovery that hopefully
2:57
most of us in this profession make, which
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is we actually have a ton of work
3:01
to do on ourselves too.
3:02
And I thought I was going in to
3:05
be helpful, but maybe I really was partly
3:07
there because I just needed help.
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So that journey went for many years.
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At a certain point, I had kids, I
3:19
had a family, I needed a way to
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pay bills.
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And I never really wanted to run a
3:24
practice.
3:25
I actually, earlier in my career, I had
3:28
a boss who closed his practice and offered
3:31
to let me buy it.
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And I didn't want it.
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I don't want to be in business.
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I don't like the red tape of insurance
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and like trying to do all this other
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stuff.
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I just like helping people.
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And then I got into a phase in
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life where suddenly those things really mattered.
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And it wasn't just like, oh, I can
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live on nothing and have a fun time
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doing whatever I feel like.
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I actually have some responsibilities.
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And so I opened Mosaic as a way
4:00
to pay the bills and have a little
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more control over the vision for what type
4:10
of work I wanted to do and still
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have the flexibility to be present for my
4:15
family.
4:16
So that's how I started this a year
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and a half ago, I think.
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Sure.
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So a somewhat reluctant entrepreneur.
4:24
Yeah, definitely.
4:26
Now you're in the thick of it.
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So that's wonderful.
4:29
One of the quotes that we keep circling
4:31
back to in this series is from philosopher
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and theologian Dallas Willard, and I know you
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appreciate his work too, that business can be
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a structure of love in the kingdom of
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God.
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So now that you're not just working as
4:46
a mental health professional, but also running your
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practice as a business, what is your vision
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for how that practice could be a structure
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of love for the people you're serving?
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That is a great question.
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And it's interesting.
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It's not a quote from Willard that I
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was familiar with before you introducing it, but
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I love the idea of it.
5:11
I think there are a few things that
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happen.
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Um, one just comes naturally from the work
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itself.
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Like therapy is supposed to be, at least
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is supposed to be a caring, healing, loving
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space and a journey or a relationship that
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carries people towards healing in their journey, which
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in a way is lucky because it makes
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it like this is automatically supposed to be
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loving.
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Um, I think the, the challenges in that
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do come in the business half of it.
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Like it's very weird, um, to sit with
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someone for an hour and then know that
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like that costs them money.
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Um, yeah, that, and, um, sometimes I get
5:58
a say in how much that costs and
6:00
sometimes that's determined by insurance, but it can
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be really, I mean, it's expensive enough that
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I wouldn't go and pay that much money
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to sit and talk with someone unless I
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had a lot of money or insurance to
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help.
6:14
Um, and so that's, yeah, it feels complex
6:18
because then there's a give and a take
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and a need that I have that I
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bring into the relationship.
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Um, the, um, I think, so that's one
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area where there's tension, but also the work
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itself is naturally meant to be loving.
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Another part of this that I think is
6:39
coming forward for me at the longer I
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do this work is, um, looking at the
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ways that I can try to build a
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practice that, uh, serves people who are vulnerable.
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So this is probably part of my, my
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academic training.
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I went to a program.
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Um, I went to Wheaton for their doctor
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and they emphasize serving underserved people.
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And so one of the ways I do
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that right now is I keep a small
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number of people on my caseload that don't
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pay anything for therapy.
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Um, I, I give away currently about 10
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% of what my services for free, um,
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to people who could not afford therapy.
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And, um, some of them are quite marginalized,
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not all of them, but some of them.
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And that, um, that allows me to feel
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like I'm doing something at the, at the
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structural level of my practice where I've built
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in a way for people to, to do
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this.
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Um, and then I think the last part
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is actually, um, well, there's an aspirational part
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and a part that I'm doing.
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So the last part that I'm slowly doing
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is just trying to think about what it
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means for the love of Christ and love
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of God to be present in therapy in
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a way that moves beyond symptoms.
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So we typically have a, um, there's a
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lot of different genres of therapy.
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It's kind of like music there.
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There's hundreds of different genres and sub genres,
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and we all have different ways of thinking
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about humans and what therapy is and what
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we're trying to do.
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And, um, that's, um, exciting, but when it
8:28
comes to insurance, which is how most of
8:32
us get paid, um, if you're, if you're
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not going to be just out of pocket,
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um, then you have to buy into the
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medical model of mental health.
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And so that means you're treating symptoms.
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You're looking at functional impairments and you're providing
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diagnoses based on the medical approach that we
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have currently in the, in the DSM five
8:52
TR, but, um, that like, this is how
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you're going to describe your work to the
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company that's going to pay you.
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And so when I end the day or
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after a session, there are a lot of
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times when I'll still end up wondering like,
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well, how much did I help?
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Like, is this person going to be less
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anxious or are they going to be less
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depressed?
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And then there are other times where I
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think like, well, maybe they are, but am
9:20
I really helping them as a whole person?
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Or am I just trying to take away
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one point of suffering or pain in their
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life, but actually what they need is something
9:31
deeper.
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And that becomes a place where I continually
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reflect on what the love of Christ means.
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And like, does it come through me?
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Um, there was a therapist named Brad, Brad
9:43
Strawn, Albert Fuller, who he wants, um, someone
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asked him a similar, but different question.
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And his answer has always stuck with me.
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He said, I always hope that my clients
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leave looking a little bit more like Jesus
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than they did when they came in.
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And this is someone who doesn't do an
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explicitly Christian, like he doesn't just work in
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the church.
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He doesn't just work with Christian clients, but
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he's aware that therapy is formational.
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And maybe there's a way that even non
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-believers come out looking a little more like
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Jesus.
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Um, and so questions like that will be
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tumbling around in my head and hopefully shaping
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the way I work.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Thinking about the, the complexity, even of like
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your, your motive to serve, but then the
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requirements of how you build, um, I feel
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that where it's like, okay, you don't want
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to just address surface level things.
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Like the nature of your work is interior
10:39
work.
10:39
You're trying to address, you know, whole dynamics
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and yet you have to filter it into,
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okay, here's the box it fits into so
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that, so that you can participate in the
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economic model that exists.
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Um, yeah.
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On there's so many layers to that.
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One that stands out to me is the
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question of like value.
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Um, and I think like a lot of
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people who might find themselves in a business
11:02
role that maybe didn't like you, maybe didn't
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primarily think about their work that way.
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It can be hard to think about like,
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what is it right to charge someone?
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Um, what is, what is the value of
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what I'm providing in terms of dollars?
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Um, because it's people like you who would
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be willing to do it for free if
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they can or when they can.
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Um, so how do you navigate that question
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of what is the value and how is
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it right for me to charge, um, in
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certain situations?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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And it is one that I wrestle with.
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Um, and I don't for some reason, I
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think I thought I would stop wrestling with
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it at a certain point.
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Like, oh, I've matured enough in the field
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that I'm like comfortable with this, but it,
11:46
it changes.
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Um, there are three things that helped me
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with this, uh, or have helped me.
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So one is I, I do try to
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think about the value of life.
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Like how much would I be willing to
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pay if someone could truly help me reduce
12:09
my suffering?
12:10
Like if someone said, I can help you
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learn to live in a way where you
12:14
may still have some anxiety, but it's not
12:17
going to run your life anymore.
12:19
You're going to get, you know, we can't
12:21
quantify it really, but just half of your
12:23
life back, like half of the amount of
12:25
time and energy you spend worrying, you can
12:27
spend enjoying your time with your kids.
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Like how much is that worth to me?
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It's actually quite a lot.
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Yeah.
12:34
Um, and so things like that helped me
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feel like at least the intention of what
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I'm offering is really good.
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Um, the second is actually, uh, something that's
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much harder to do.
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Um, both because it costs me money financially,
12:51
but it also has a stake in ego
12:54
and it's relationally complex, um, is paying attention
12:58
to whether or not I'm actually achieving that.
13:00
Like, is this someone who's stuck in therapy?
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Have they been seeing me for six months
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and they're not getting anywhere?
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Do I continue to tell them like, yeah,
13:11
keep coming.
13:12
We're going to like, you should keep paying
13:14
me.
13:14
Or do I say like I'm not the
13:17
right therapist or is it something that's not
13:19
have working in therapy?
13:20
Like maybe they're not doing what I've recommended
13:24
or something.
13:25
There's some sort of breakdown.
13:26
Like am I attending to that enough that
13:28
I'm actively trying to solve it?
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And if it's proving unsolvable, am I willing
13:33
to bring that up as an awkward, hard
13:35
conversation and say like, Hey, we've been meeting
13:39
for several months.
13:40
Do you, how do you feel like it's
13:42
going?
13:43
And anticipating the answer being, I don't think
13:46
much has changed.
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And knowing that my answer is going to
13:49
be, yeah, I don't think much has changed
13:50
either.
13:52
Let's talk about like, if this, is this
13:57
the right fit for you or, and that's
13:59
sort of a bummer because I put myself
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out of work.
14:02
And I don't do things like that very
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often.
14:04
My default would be like, let's figure out
14:07
what's wrong and fix it.
14:08
Stay as a client.
14:09
Let's just do this differently and make it
14:11
work better.
14:12
But it's necessary to do that.
14:17
I think if you're going to practice ethically,
14:18
otherwise you're just sort of creating dependence and
14:21
being a paid friend, which is not really,
14:25
at least in my, my vision of therapy,
14:27
what I'm trying to do.
14:29
Yeah.
14:29
Yeah.
14:32
Oh, there was a third, there was a
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third that I'm blanking on.
14:35
So I had a thought related to your
14:37
second, so if you can buy your time
14:39
to think of it.
14:40
But yeah, I, I've thought about that dynamic
14:43
too, of to, to do what's most ethical,
14:46
you actually have to financially disadvantage yourself sometimes.
14:50
And the, the kind of temptation to not
14:53
ask the tough question that might actually empower
14:56
a patient in a more meaningful way.
14:59
And this comes across in other healthcare fields
15:01
too.
15:01
I was talking with a chiropractor, very different
15:03
kind of practice.
15:05
But he said, you know, most chiropractors, their
15:07
model is you keep seeing me forever.
15:09
And he's like, my model is I only
15:11
want to meet with you six times.
15:12
You know, it was, it was an empowerment
15:14
model.
15:14
And it's like, if, if we can kind
15:16
of figure out what works for you and
15:17
some healthy practices, you should be able to
15:18
do it yourself after that.
15:19
And I just had so much respect for
15:21
him because it's challenging to run a business
15:22
when you only meet with people six times
15:24
versus monthly for years or what have you,
15:26
not that it would be the same number
15:28
of visits for a therapeutic relationship necessarily, or
15:31
that long-term therapeutic relationships aren't fruitful.
15:34
But just to, to be willing to have
15:37
that posture and to ask the tough questions
15:39
of yourself requires a kind of humility and,
15:42
and, and risk of a willing to embrace
15:44
the financial risk that ethical practice requires.
15:47
Yeah.
15:48
Yeah, that's true.
15:51
Definitely true.
15:52
And yeah, I would say not six, but
15:55
I do have a similar assumption that people
15:57
are supposed to get better.
15:58
They're not supposed to see me for years
16:00
and years.
16:01
Yeah.
16:02
Yeah.
16:03
I'm still blanking on the maybe we can,
16:06
we can move forward.
16:07
I got, I got more questions.
16:08
That's great.
16:09
So thinking about, especially since you've kind of
16:13
had a reluctant journey into entrepreneurship, is there
16:16
anything that you've learned as a business person
16:18
that then you've realized actually comes back and
16:21
helps you either like as a therapist or
16:24
just in your spiritual life, your life and
16:26
community and the church?
16:27
That's kind of one of the things we're
16:29
doing in the series is how do we
16:30
cross pollinate between business world and ministry church
16:33
world?
16:34
Yeah.
16:35
So I would say being in the business
16:38
world specifically, not, not as much other than
16:43
that.
16:43
I gain a, um, a little bit more
16:47
appreciation for the technicality of, uh, well of
16:53
the legal side of things and like risk
16:55
management, which I, which I don't like, but
16:58
it does help me actually think like now
17:00
when I, um, uh, I'm thinking about trying
17:03
to put together like a short, essentially like
17:07
a formation hour Sunday school type class for
17:09
people in my church.
17:10
But like, I have a whole separate set
17:12
of questions I think about, wait, what are,
17:15
what are my relationships here?
17:16
What are my responsibilities?
17:18
What happens if something goes wrong?
17:21
Like how am I taking care of the
17:22
people that, you know, maybe someone who wants
17:24
to come to my class is coming because
17:26
they're suffering and that's why they want to
17:28
do a class on mental and emotional wellbeing
17:30
in faith.
17:31
And like, I need to be mindful of
17:35
what that means and what that looks like
17:37
in a way that I might've been at
17:40
some points in my career and life much
17:42
more casual about like, oh, I'm just trying
17:44
to help.
17:45
And now it's like, there's a lot of
17:48
extra things involved.
17:51
Um, I think, yeah.
17:53
The other thing is that I do tend
17:56
to be an idealist and business keeps me
18:00
like planted in reality.
18:05
Um, there's a, I, my wife and I
18:07
were watching scrubs last night, which I love
18:10
scrubs.
18:10
And the first season is like one of
18:12
my favorite seasons of any TV show.
18:14
And Dr. Cox and Dr. Kelso are arguing
18:17
about like, whether you make decisions for the
18:19
patient or decisions for the hospital and like
18:22
the show.
18:23
And rightly, I mean, it comes down on
18:25
the side of like, you do what's best
18:27
for the patient.
18:27
You don't do what's best for the hospital,
18:29
but when you're running the business, you do
18:33
start to think in a different way in
18:35
terms of like numbers and money.
18:39
And like, if this business closes or if
18:42
it's not profitable, like I don't necessarily get
18:45
to help anyone here and, and it impacts
18:49
not just my clients, but it impacts my
18:51
family.
18:52
And as I'm trying to hire some people,
18:54
like it's going to impact their families.
18:56
It's not just about, um, it's not just
19:00
about getting rich and being like, haha, I
19:02
have money.
19:03
It's about trying to create something sustainable.
19:06
And I think that part of it can
19:10
help me think about my role in church
19:13
and faith better.
19:16
Um, yeah, it creates a great space for
19:20
like vision and sustainability in a way that
19:22
I don't think I would have ever engaged
19:26
in if I had avoided this role.
19:30
Totally, totally.
19:31
And some, some of those things you can't
19:32
learn in a classroom.
19:33
Um, only when you're looking at the profit
19:35
and loss statement and trying to figure out
19:37
how do I make this work?
19:38
Um, I really appreciate what you said about
19:41
like, you know, serving, serving the enterprise versus
19:45
serving the patient and how it's like, well,
19:47
ultimately, right.
19:48
If we're not totally cynical, the enterprise itself
19:51
is serving patients.
19:52
Right.
19:52
You know, and so, uh, protecting or, or
19:56
stewarding the enterprise or the institution ultimately allows
20:01
you to keep doing what it does well.
20:03
Um, and obviously there there's temptations there where
20:05
you can easily skew, um, how you would
20:08
answer certain conundrums.
20:09
Um, but yeah, there's validity there too.
20:12
Um, that like to care for people requires
20:14
caring for the institutions and the enterprises that
20:17
care for them.
20:17
Yeah.
20:18
It's a symbiotic relationship.
20:20
I think of, I almost think of a
20:21
business or even the church or institutions as
20:24
an organism and like they also have to
20:26
survive or else all the little beings that
20:29
are clustered around it suffer.
20:31
Yeah.
20:31
Um, the balance for me is saying like,
20:34
my goal in a business is not to
20:36
make the most money I could possibly make,
20:38
but it is to be profitable, profitable enough
20:41
that all of us who depend on it
20:43
are okay.
20:44
Yeah.
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
Yeah.
20:45
Yeah.
20:47
So, uh, we have listeners from all different
20:50
walks of life and types of work.
20:52
Um, some of them though are business people
20:54
or maybe considering entrepreneurship.
20:56
Um, and I imagine some of them might
20:57
be considering it reluctantly.
20:59
Um, like maybe they found themselves just like,
21:01
maybe this is the answer, um, rather than
21:03
like a lifelong dream.
21:05
Um, so what, what would you want to
21:06
say to your younger self, uh, about the
21:09
journey of having business be part of your
21:11
professional world?
21:14
Uh, the first thing I would tell myself,
21:17
and I think this is true, I don't
21:19
know about other fields, but for mine is
21:22
it's easier than you think.
21:23
Um, I think I was always intimidated by
21:27
like, wait, you mean I have to like
21:29
create a business?
21:30
I don't even know how to start a
21:31
business.
21:33
Much less like create, yeah.
21:35
Review a profit loss statement at like design
21:39
a business plan and get clients.
21:41
And then I have to like set up
21:44
a payroll system.
21:45
It just seems like so much hassle.
21:47
And then, then I have to negotiate with
21:49
insurance companies and like, like actually it's very
21:54
doable.
21:55
Um, so that's one of the things I
21:57
would tell myself slate.
21:59
Yes, you can do this.
22:01
It's not that don't be overwhelmed.
22:04
Um, it doesn't have to be perfect.
22:06
And that's probably thing.
22:07
Number two, you can learn.
22:10
I like, I'm sort of an over researcher
22:13
and planner.
22:14
So I'm going to figure all of it
22:15
out, uh, on the front end and then
22:18
like make sure everything goes according to plan,
22:20
which does not happen anyway.
22:24
And so, um, so like let it grow,
22:27
let it develop.
22:28
Like you, you can't be passive, but like
22:32
you don't have to micromanage every corner of
22:36
your business.
22:38
And, um, the, I am still learning that
22:42
and struggle with that, but as I do,
22:44
it gets easier.
22:46
Yeah.
22:46
Yeah.
22:47
More of a gardener than an architect in
22:49
a way.
22:49
It's not like you got a blueprint and
22:51
then you follow it.
22:52
It's, this is a living, moving thing that
22:53
I adapt to, um, as it goes.
22:56
Yeah.
22:57
Yeah.
22:57
Yeah.
22:58
A little bit.
22:58
Um, and then you find, yeah, you find
23:01
your niche and in different ways where like,
23:04
Oh, these are the people that I like
23:06
serving and that, that want what I'm offering.
23:10
And, and then I, I think most of
23:12
the time that's where the matches, like when
23:16
you have someone or a group of people
23:18
that you love having something to give to,
23:20
because you love what you do and they're
23:22
there, those are the people that are going
23:24
to be looking for what you're doing.
23:26
And so you just find that audience, um,
23:30
easier said than done, but, um, yeah.
23:34
Yeah.
23:35
Yeah.
23:35
It can be joyful, a life giving thing.
23:38
That's beautiful.
23:39
Well, I wish we had time to keep
23:41
going.
23:41
Um, but, uh, I like to joke, this
23:44
is a commute length podcast for our listeners.
23:46
So, um, but would you be willing to
23:49
just close in prayer for listeners about all
23:51
the things we've talked about?
23:52
Sure.
23:53
Yeah.
23:53
Thank you.
23:55
Father, son, and Holy spirit.
23:57
I thank you for this time and for
24:04
those who are listening, um, for those like
24:07
Chris who are serving and creating things that
24:11
are useful to those of us in business.
24:16
I ask that you would help all of
24:18
us to seek you first, to seek first
24:23
your kingdom and trust that you will help
24:27
us along the way as we take the
24:29
next right step.
24:31
Uh, for those who might be discerning whether
24:34
starting a business is right for them.
24:37
I ask that you give them wisdom, give
24:39
them voices of support and encouragement and people
24:43
who are invested in their wellbeing so that
24:46
those people who speak wisdom into their lives
24:48
are doing so out of a place of
24:51
love and desire for their flourishing, not just,
24:55
um, out of what they potentially benefit from
24:59
in seeing this person flourish.
25:01
I ask that you would be with each
25:03
of us, uh, also knowing that our most
25:08
important self comes from you.
25:11
The deepest relationship we have is with you.
25:14
And it's not about being a success or
25:17
a failure, even though those things matter practically.
25:21
Um, they don't define our worth and value
25:25
with you.
25:26
Help us to embrace that in the way
25:29
that we love and in the way that
25:30
we work.
25:32
I ask you to name the Father, the
25:33
Son, and the Holy Spirit.
25:40
Thanks for listening.
25:41
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25:43
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25:46
dedicated to forming Christians for mission in everyday
25:49
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