Latest / Honey Badger Radio / How did western suffrage start? | HBR Talk 302

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How did western suffrage start? | HBR Talk 302 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:00
  Hello, and welcome to HBr Talk three to oh two. How did Western
• 0:05
  suffrage start? I'm your host Hannah Wallen here with nonsense annihilator Lauren Brooks and
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  the personification of perceptivity Mike Stevenson. And tonight we're gonna go back, way
• 0:18
  back back into time. No, don't get the trog Light eighte song by
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  the Jimmy Cast Bunch stuck in your head. We're not going that far back,
• 0:25
  just medieval times. But before we do that, we gotta do what
• 0:29
  we gotta do. As always, Honey Badger Radio dishes out a S.
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  for that is feed the Badger dot com slash just the tip And as always,
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  Brigade dot com, where you can find your way to all of our content,
• 1:26
  as well as a link to feed the Badger dot com in the dropdown
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  menu at the top of the page. And with that, let's get on
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  with the discussion. Western feminists talk about suffrage in England and nations that started
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  out as English colonies, things that are influenced basically by English common law,
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  like the right to vote, with something all men always had given to them
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  for no reason other than that they were men, and only women ever had
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  to fight to be included in the franchise and this and be further from the
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  truth. To understand the issue and why it matters that women had such a
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  different pathway to their voting rights than men did, we're going to have a
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  crash course in history that before I started looking into the history of suffrage,
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  I honestly didn't know jack shit about this. To be to be fair in
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  the United States, in the school system, the public school system, we're
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  not obligated before graduation to take world history, or at least we weren't when
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  I was in school. I don't think they are anymore either. We take
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  American history, but it starts a lot later than medieval times because we wouldn't
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  be studying the same group of people. But in any case, so there's
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  a lot here that I had to go digging for, and probably the most
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  difficult part of my journey is that stuff that was there when I looked into
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  this maybe twelve years ago discussing it on Reddit, is a lot of it's
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  gone. A lot of the old timelines are gone, and it became increasingly
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  difficult to get the information I was looking for without having my searches for it,
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  you know, and find things that I could link to on the Internet,
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  and not just things I would be talking about having found in physical books
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  in a library and still be able to link to something that wasn't Wikipedia.
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  Like Wikipedia dominates search engines. Now you look something up you want, you
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  look for information on something, Google promotes it and it shows up first in
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  a lot of other like if you look at duck Duc go. If you
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  look at Brave search engine, if you look at you Who, it's they're
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  Yahoo. Sorry, it's still there, by the way, who is still
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  there, But it's uh, it's still dominated by Wikipedia. Like everything,
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  it seems to be dominated by Wikipedia. And one of the problems that I
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  have with Wikipedia is they essentially value things that have been said by journalistic hacks
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  over and above older sources of information direct sources of information. Like if if
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  a source of information is, uh, the autobiography of an individual, they
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  don't want to use that, but if somebody writes a hit piece about that
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  individual, they will use that absolutely. Yeah, it's it's tough. You
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  can. I don't know how what the process is because I've never tried to
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  edit any information on Wikipedia, but that's absolutely possible to do, and I
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  don't know what the process is for them vetting that information that's trying to be
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  you know, updated or adjusted or edited or whatever. But yeah, it's
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  Wikipedia is not necessarily the end all and be all when it comes to your
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  sources for information. They just happen to show up first on the page.
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  And not only not only is it not the end all, be all,
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  but it is often wrong. Yeah, I guess it's a bit like or
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  I would hope it's a bit like community notes on Twitter, because those are
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  sort of voted on by check marks of various But Wikipedia is like if community
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  notes were able to replace the original tweet. And I guess it's it's very
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  different because uh, in Wikipedia, every everything goes through the top end,
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  like anyone can edit these things, but eventually it goes through the powers that
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  be, that the top brass at Wikipedia, and if they get enough complaints
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  from people they give a ship about, namely raging leftists, then they go
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  in there and veto any information they don't like. But if you if you
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  look at the Wikipedia article on gamer Gate to this day, it's an it's
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  an entirely skewed propaganda piece saying, oh, it's a harassment campaign against women
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  and all is bullshit. Even even even the Chinese equivalent of Wikipedia is far
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  more fair in its appraisal of of of what of what game a gay was?
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  And and and this is you know, the fucking China. It's it's
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  communism Central, where they control everything on the internet in in favor of the
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  communist narrative. And even that is nowhere near as skewed towards this particular kind
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  of community as as the I don't know what nationality to which you would tie
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  Wikipedia, but yeah, it's far more communist than China ever has been on
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  Wikipedia. It's insane and it's it's not just political, it's also they have
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  some stupid things that they do. And we have some articles from uh,
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  you know, our our our history in the honey Badger Brigade in the blog
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  about the things that are wrong with Wikipedia. But an example I can give
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  you I have I have family members that are sort of niche famous in the
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  medical community for the thing they did last century, and it was the the
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  start of the thing they did was set off by the decision of one of
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  the family members in the household, and that that decision is something that individual
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  made after an incident that took place and a discussion that took place with the
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  rest of the family, and then the rest of the family decided that,
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  you know, this was a good decision that we need to do and you
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  know, gonna get to do this, and it set off a whole big
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  change in a particular area of medicine. But initially there was that decision,
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  right and the article There is a Wikipedia article about this occurrence because it did
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  result in a major change in in that particular area of medicine. And there
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  used to be I don't know if there still is, but there used to
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  be a note on the paragraph that explained the individual's reasoning behind that decision and
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  what the event was that led that that led to that decision. That was
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  something that that that this person described. I made this decision because X happened
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  and I witnessed it and that was wrong and this has to change, and
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  so we decided to make this change. This was the conversation that took place.
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  This is documented in the individual's autobiography. Right that was that was written
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  by the individual when I was a kid. And Wikipedia's note on it says
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  that a that the source is too close to the individual and can't be accurate.
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  So, according to Wikipedia, if I go to the store, basically
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  according to Wikipedia standards, if I go to the store to get a gallon
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  of milk because we are out of milk, and I post a blog post
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  about it, I went to the store to get a gallon of milk because
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  we are out of milk, and something happens and it becomes famous and Wikipedia
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  writes an article. Somebody on Wikipedia writes an article about it, they cannot
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  publish in Wikipedia that I went to the store to get a gallon of milk
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  because we were out of milk, and that was why I was there when
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  the thing happened. Unless somebody else in a journalistic outlet they like, writes
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  about it, even if that journalistic outlet references my blog post, that makes
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  it credible, But me saying that that was why I was there isn't.
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  So I don't use Wikipedia as my primary source for anything. I will use
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  it as my diving board looking for sources. And the other thing that I've
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  discovered is there are some articles that I looked into in other areas about other
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  things where Wikipedia has a line and they'll have a little number, you know,
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  and there's the source listed, and it's a news article and it's actually
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  online. So I'll go read the news article, and keywords related to the
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  thing they said are mentioned in the news article. But when you read the
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  statement with those keywords, it says exactly the opposite of what the writer thinks
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  it says. So they have things in there that are inaccurate because either the
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  writer was stupid, which is a possibility. You always have to be open
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  to that possibility or they deliberately lied. So either way, like the biggest
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  part of my journey with finding information and then double checking it and confirming it,
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  all without having Wikipedia pollute my search, because I think of Wikipedia in
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  terms of information searches as being not too far off from that big patch of
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  plastic garbage that's floating in the middle of the ocean, which they are now
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  having to be careful about cleaning up because there are actual living things growing on
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  it. So now it's a habitat. Wow, I read that recently too,
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  not a Wikipedia. So just with that out of the way, that's
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  why some of my sources seem like a little weird, and some of the
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  information that I've found other places might have been easier to just grab from Wikipedia,
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  but I can't do that. So before we get into the actual show
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  material, since we do have super Chat, I'm going to look and see.
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  I think we probably have a super chow too, because we have our
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  our one loyal user who always leaves us an initial super Chow which I can't
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  find a stupid chat for it. The brain. Okay, so we don't
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  have it yet, I don't think not yet. Okay, So our super
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  chow that we have is from Catherine Scully, who says para character exaggeratedly stretching
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  his arm forward to offer a cup of coffee. I need coffee, especially
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  for this this show. That's gonna be an interesting topic, by the way,
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  because there seems to be this misconception about suffrage. Now that I've like
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  gone on a fifteen minute rant about Wikipedia and how much I hate it,
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  but there seems to be a misconception on the topic that women's voting rights were
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  deliberately and willfully hindered throughout history by men, by the patriarchy, and uh,
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  and I we're we're pretty much going to debunk the hell out of that
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  tonight, so let's get started. I have, uh, I'm not going
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  to, like verbatim read my show notes because there when I when I put
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  them in a Google drive, there's like seven or eight pages to it.
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  But I have quite a bit here. So this this journey it was was
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  was a bit rough. Like I said, so too, are English colleagues
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  in the movement? Real quick, please understand this is stuff I did have
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  to educate myself about because like, like I said in the American school system,
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  history doesn't seem to be as important to them as politics and sex education.
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  I had to take sex education, and I had to I had to
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  take courses that that ended up inundating me with left wing politics. But I
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  didn't have to take world history, which I think is today. You know,
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  I look back at that and I think that is bullshit. But so
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  I learned learned this all through, like I said, mostly my own research.
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  So if I've got anything in here that is wrong or incomplete that you
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  think needs to be expanded on, Like there are details that are important to
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  what we were talking about and I didn't mention them, please please please comment
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  and say so because this is important stuff. And feel free to comment in
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  two places because we got I've got this up what you're seeing in the screen.
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  Here is the Honey Badger Brigade blog Honeybadger Brigade dot com. In our
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  show notes, there is a link to this post and you can also comment
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  on this post. YouTube sometimes eats our comments. I don't know if if
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  you can comment on Twitch, Facebook might actually ban you for commenting about this.
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  I don't know. So one place where you know you can leave your
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  comment is the Honey Badger Brigade blog, and that includes like, if you're
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  a feminist and you think everything I'm saying is bullshit, you can say that
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  there too, and we may or may not answer h and and argue.
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  I will try to keep track of these comments, and I will say thank
• 16:52
  you in advance to anybody who does comment. But I would rather have people
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  comment and say I know you're wrong, this happened and you didn't mention it
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  or or something like that, then misinformed people. So that's that's one thing
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  that's really important to me, because this topic sort of explains a bit about
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  why it is not unreasonable for a lot of people in what is We used
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  to refer to ourselves as the manisphere before the media did. But when we
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  talked about it, we talked about it in terms of a loose, loose
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  connection between different groups of men's advocates and men's issues discussions and uh activity surrounding
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  men's issues. It wasn't like the grand conspiracy theory that the media is making
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  it out to be now. But generally speaking, there is quite a bit
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  of muttering in the manisphere about women's suffrage taking a different path much easier path,
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  and some people say, you know, women shouldn't vote, and I'm
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  I'm in more in that camp than I was before. And I've been more
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  in that camp than I was before increasingly over the last few years as I
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  learned more about why maybe women don't consider their votes as carefully as men do.
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  Yes, So I've gone right over that hill and I've landed on the
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  point that nobody should have the vote. We're going to learn how vote,
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  how the vote happened. So it's it's an interesting evolution because I think it
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  was kind of inevitable that we would end up at this point, but at
• 18:45
  this point we definitely do need to re examine it that there is that So
• 18:53
  you are not going to get kicked out of the Honey Badger Brigade blog for
• 19:00
  for arguing with us. Now, if you try to sell shit and scam
• 19:03
  people, that's a different story, right, Don't don't get on there and
• 19:07
  start selling psychic services and bullcrap like that. Like that might get you deleted.
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  But but you know, you can tell me. You can get on
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  there and tell me that I am absolutely full of shit, and I will
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  not delete your comment. So so there you go. But let's get into
• 19:26
  this, like I said, and let's scroll down past that and past the
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  intro and there we go. So the first thing that I want to talk
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  about, and I worded it specifically in the blog, is if I was
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  gonna go through and read this, because when I first started my notes,
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  I thought, oh, I'll have a few paragraphs, maybe a couple of
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  pages, and we'll read through it. And there's a lot of information.
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  And I when I started reading about voting, I realized that I was starting
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  in the middle of the story to keep going back farther and farther, and
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  I finally landed on the Magna Carta, which is ancient history today. So
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  to talk about the Magna Carta, I had to talk about the worst monarch
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  England ever had, at least according to uh hawks on that phony King of
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  England. Yeah, according to everyone, and even Disney, like even when
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  when even Disney hates you, you must be something. Something's really like,
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  I don't know, So King John of England, this is this is King
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  John of robin Hood, legend, brother of King Richard. And and while
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  there is a lot of the story that is just folklore, there were some
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  things that were true Richard really did run off to fight in the Crusades.
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  Richard really was captured, and John really did leave him in captivity to save
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  money and stay in power. There are Robin of Locksley, not that,
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  not that I could find anything about. I've I've found some articles where they
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  said, we think this guy is who they were talking about. But there's
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  also articles about how the name Robin of Locksley came from. In Robin Hood
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  came from terminology about brigands in the woods that robbed people and stuff like that.
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  And there was actually, in all likelihood, they were all kinds of
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  all over the country and and they just sort of came together, presumably in
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  Nottingham, because there were lots of them in Nottingham more so than in any
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  other place. This is how legends occur. Was a legend rather than a
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  myth. This is sort of the difference that a myth didn't exist. It's
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  just a story that people tell each other. A legend is someone who might
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  have existed, but we're not quite sure. But it's it's sort of very
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  loosely based on on on at least a movement that did exist. Yeah,
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  and and uh, there was a lot of resistance to to John's policies and
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  in particular his taxation policy, because he was an asshole. He was he
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  was terrible. So but we have to go back even a little little bit
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  further than that to understand how the Magna Carta came about. So, so
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  we start with King John's father, Henry the second. Henry the Second had
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  brought a lot of territory into England through his his origins and his marriage,
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  and so he had, like England had expanded, and some of that territory
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  had previously been French and and so under John's rule, through his own decisions
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  like like, he lost some of that territory to to King Philip and uh
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  in his attempts to get the the lance back, he ended up spending quite
• 23:30
  a bit of money and he failed. He didn't get anything back. So
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  he essentially spent a shitload of money and then fell on his face. And
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  on top of that, you had the cost of the Crusades, which was
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  also bankrupting England. You had he had other things going on. He lived
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  in the lap of luxury while the people like that was an accurate portrayal in
• 23:57
  in all of the various storytellings of Robin Hood where it shows you know,
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  King John being rich and eating you know, good food and having parties all
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  the time like that was. That was true. And he was also like
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  right down to the Tisney version was accurate, right down to when he would
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  get upset, he would bite his fingers. That's that was mentioned in several
• 24:25
  places like that that was he wasn't a skinny lion, but he did do
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  that. So it's kind of funny. I'm dying because my only knowledge of
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  really of the Robin Hood lore is from Robinhood in Many Tights. Yeah,
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  all I can remember is Richard Lewis holding biting his finger, Yeah, and
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  it like that. That's and it was. It's accurate. That's the funny
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  part. It's accurate. It was really did. And he was an asshole
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  to other nobles as well, like he went to We'll we'll talk more about
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  Ireland later, by the way, our Ireland and in terms of the relationship
• 25:11
  between England and Ireland. The best thing that I could think of to say
• 25:14
  about it is that it fits into the it's complicated category Jese and Pete's.
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  But in any case, like when when he went he was sent by his
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  father to Ireland, to uh sort of try to make some connections. And
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  he was an asshole to the nobles there in the most socially awkward and dipshittish
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  way, like pulling on their beards and laughing at them and shit, you
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  know, seriously, acting like a spoiled child. Really did not help the
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  relations We'll leave it at that, Like he made things much worse. So
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  he was he was an asshole, right, And he went to his barons
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  after after wasting all of this money, after not winning his lands and everything,
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  and demanded more taxes, more money, gotta fund this war, we
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  gotta fund this, we gotta fund that, and and they're like, no,
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  well I get to do that. We don't want that. So they
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  ended up they ended up in a bit of a war there. They came
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  out with a set of demands. They wrote what is essentially the original version
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  of the Magna Carta, and while it didn't create a citizen's right to vote,
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  it established that he couldn't just unilaterally raise taxes, and he couldn't just
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  unilaterally do some other things that you know, he had to respect something called
• 27:07
  the Great Council. And this was a tradition in the UK. So you
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  had your king, and you had your nobles, and you had this system
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  where the various areas of the UK, the nobles from those areas would come
• 27:25
  and have a meeting, and representatives of the church in those areas would also
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  participate in this meeting, and they would discuss the heavy issues like taxation,
• 27:37
  new laws and policies and stuff and make their recommendations to the king, and
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  the king very carefully considered those recommendations. These are things that you know,
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  he didn't just say, well, I want to do this, so I'm
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  going to do it regardless of what you guys say or do. But King
• 27:56
  John decided he wasn't going to do that. He just did his his thing
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  the way he was going to do it. So it just to show you
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  you don't need democracy in order to push back on a tyrannical king. You
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  just need the next layer down, which in this case was the barons,
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  because they realized they they had enough power over over there. I don't know
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  what the jurisdiction of a baron is. So they had their own armies.
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  They had their own military like we're You wouldn't think of it as an army
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  like today's army. It would be more like a militia. But they did
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  have their own forces. That was the other thing that is interesting. But
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  reading about it, you had and England and Ireland and Scotland all had sort
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  of a different and Ireland and Scotland were one thing originally. Yeah, it
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  wasn't called the UK at the time. But I know you're doing that because
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  that's what we call it now. But yeah, it wasn't called the u
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  K until the early twentieth century, I think, maybe right right, Well,
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  it was quite it was like it was kind of all called England at
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  the time. Well well maybe not not far back. Yeah, Ireland was
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  its own country throughout most of this and what what Americans think of as a
• 29:18
  completely separate group of people, the Scottish were Irish before they were Scottish.
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  So and there's there's a lot that I learned actually about my family history because
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  my my family history involves Scots that to my understanding from everything that I've found
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  in my digging, are from a branch of Clan Campbell that had to flee
• 29:51
  Scotland under cover of darkness to avoid execution for their crimes. So but I
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  I come from a law history of outcasts and socially awkward people, I guess,
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  but it's must. It's the same in Britain. We like to think,
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  we like to think of ourselves as ethnically separate people, but we're composed
• 30:17
  of people who've been escaping Scotland and escaping Wales and escaping Ireland and escaping England,
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  just sort of running clockwise around these islands for thousands of years like that
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  would genetically, there's no difference. Well see, that's the other thing.
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  My Welsh ancestors aren't Welsh. They're Scandinavian too. Yeah, but in fact
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  I'm more Scandinavian than I am anything else. But but my and I'd always
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  been a little confused about like how could they just go to Ireland with how
• 30:44
  do they just let them in? And well, Ireland and Scotland, the
• 30:48
  people of Ireland and Scotland were one ethnic group, and there were things that
• 30:55
  happen in history. I'm not going to go through the whole history of that
• 30:56
  either because it take all day, but they uh uh sort of split off
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  to two different uh sort of nationalities and and then they also had their very
• 31:11
  complicated relationship with England and and so on. But that and that's that's like
• 31:18
  way way oversimplified. But so my my Irish ancestors that were Scottish before they
• 31:26
  were Irish were Irish before they were Scottish, So there you go. So
• 31:36
  no, Tyler Preston, I'm technically not Welsh. Uh They and I learned
• 31:40
  more about this by by getting a medical DNA test and then also getting my
• 31:49
  genetic profile, my like genealogy profile from that. But uh, you know,
• 31:59
  the the prime everything that I learned was that I have a medical disorder
• 32:01
  that really kind of sucks, which isn't really new news. We already knew
• 32:07
  that. I just had to have it on paper and which there there's like
• 32:15
  thirteen or fourteen different ways that it can be bad, so we had to
• 32:17
  find out which particular type of bad it was. But yeah, ultimately I'm
• 32:24
  mostly you know, my my history is mostly Viking, and oddly I found
• 32:31
  out that I have a whole branch of ancestry that isn't accounted for in my
• 32:38
  on paper genealogy. So we'll just let that drop and you guys can figure
• 32:45
  out the implications of that. If your ancestry is from Great batter Britain or
• 32:52
  Island, then it's likely your Scandinavian heritage is a fraction of that, because
• 32:58
  I'm in that camp as well. Yeah, my parents recently got one of
• 33:01
  those tests and it turns out I think my dad is two percent Norwegian and
• 33:07
  my mum is three percent. No, no, no, Swedish. I'm
• 33:10
  a quarter, which is quite really Okay, Yeah, I'm a I'm a
• 33:14
  I'm a quarter Scandinavian, and it's not all one country. But uh no,
• 33:22
  I I have more Spanish ancestry than Irish. And that was the weirdest
• 33:29
  thing because like I expected to be like, oh yeah, Irish, you
• 33:31
  know, taking up most of the Venn diagram and then the rest is like
• 33:37
  you know, other things. No, So, somewhere somewhere in my family
• 33:43
  history is somebody who claimed to be from somewhere they were not, or something
• 33:49
  else happened. Somebody somebody claimed that somebody who was not was the father.
• 33:54
  Like those were the two possibilities that that that came to me, as you
• 34:00
  know, like, ah, this this was caused by one of these two
• 34:02
  things. So but in any case, yeah, So all of that said,
• 34:09
  there was a lot of travel back and forth between the nations and everything,
• 34:15
  uh, and there was there were differences like England had. England's feudal
• 34:22
  system was a king and then nobles. Ireland's feudal system was a great king
• 34:32
  and then kings and then nobles. So it was it was a little different.
• 34:39
  But in any case, the the UK Government's history blog was a good
• 34:45
  source that I found, I found useful, and then I also found a
• 34:54
  report that was written by an individual that was published by the UK Government that
• 35:02
  they gave a lot of information about this. So medieval kings were basically here's
• 35:08
  how the Great Council is explained. Medieval kings were expected to consult with and
• 35:15
  take advice from the leading churchmen and nobility of their kingdoms. Greater nobility were
• 35:20
  generally tied to the king through bonds of kinship, ancestry and tenure, and
• 35:25
  tenure being they had a long standing trusting relationship because of service to the king,
• 35:35
  you know, not just I met this guy when I was a kid
• 35:37
  and I've known him for you know, thirty or forty years, or my
• 35:42
  father knew this person's father and their families known our family for all this time.
• 35:45
  It was there had to be something more than that sacrifice going to war
• 35:52
  for the king, you know, that kind of thing, paying tribute and
• 35:55
  so on. So ken ancestry and tenure. In post conquest feudal society,
• 36:04
  the king's tenants in chief held their lands of the king. Meanings you had
• 36:10
  the highest nobility paid the king rent for their lands, and that was taxation.
• 36:20
  They were considered to be the natural leaders of the kingdom. They had
• 36:22
  a right and an obligation to give counsel to the king. So it was
• 36:27
  not just when we think of suffrage as a right. We don't think of
• 36:36
  it as an obligation anymore. In the twenty first century, and even in
• 36:40
  the twentieth century a lot of people didn't think of it as an obligation.
• 36:44
  But it's your job to participate in the system of government. And this was
• 36:49
  an early sort of predecessor of suffrage. Right. These are the people who
• 36:53
  were responsible for these lands. So if you were a lord or a baron
• 37:01
  and you owed your fealty to the king, you owed rent to the king,
• 37:07
  taxes to the king basically for your lands. And when he wanted to
• 37:12
  fund a war or a building a road or anything like that, it was
• 37:17
  this great council that he came to. It wasn't just that you got to
• 37:22
  say yes or no. It was expected by the people under you, the
• 37:30
  people who paid you rent for their little segments of land, and the people
• 37:34
  who worked your fields and everything, that you would make a decision on their
• 37:39
  behalf and then go in and say to the King, this is what would
• 37:45
  benefit me and mine the people of my land, and this is what we
• 37:51
  want right. And it was also you had authority to do that because you
• 37:57
  had that obligation. It was your responsibility. So Clause fourteen of the Magna
• 38:07
  Carta didn't create parliament, it didn't give voting rights to the common man,
• 38:13
  but it codified into the law the fact that a set of nobles whose position
• 38:17
  came with responsibility for the people living on their lands, must meet and decide
• 38:24
  together how to advise their king before he could proceed with new taxation. So
• 38:30
  that is sort of my opinion is that that is the original voting right.
• 38:37
  These people would have this discussion and they would decide together that would involve everybody
• 38:45
  having their say, I think this is my advice, and when as a
• 38:52
  group they advised the king, everybody's statements would have been taken into consideration.
• 38:58
  So that's a proto voting system. Are you about to speak, Oh,
• 39:06
  sorry, No, I'm gonna say I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah,
• 39:09
  it's a competition, is all you need. Yeah. You got one
• 39:15
  guy on one side of the country saying I want this, and another guy
• 39:19
  and another part of the country saying I want this, And that's that's as
• 39:22
  much competition as you need. Like I said, you don't. Yeah,
• 39:28
  you don't need the the fuss of democracy in order to make this happen.
• 39:32
  You just need to splinter the the absolute rule of a king, and you
• 39:37
  can still have a king, but you can you can you can divide it
• 39:43
  between jurisdiction so that you have competition, and it's it's much the same as
• 39:47
  the principle of the free market. It is just from different translations. I
• 39:57
  suppose as long as you got people who can pull together by disagreeing with each
• 40:07
  other, that's sort of how competition works. You can have you can have
• 40:12
  a centralized power, but not absolutely centralized, nor does it need to be
• 40:17
  splintered all the way down to each individual, although in theory you could do
• 40:23
  that still without even involving democracy. You could. You can splinter it down
• 40:31
  to counties, which I believe are controlled by counts, hence the name count
• 40:37
  counties. I'm not sure what the differences between a count and a barren.
• 40:40
  They might just be different variations of the same name. And you could take
• 40:45
  it beyond counties down to cities and towns and even villages, and you can
• 40:52
  take it as far as you can from from there, which is probably definitions
• 40:57
  related to that. In this we aren't going to go through. We might
• 41:00
  actually have to go through and read the definitions because this is old medieval speak
• 41:05
  for things that have modern concepts that we're not attaching it to. But yeah,
• 41:13
  I would say one of the biggest problems that has happened in the last
• 41:16
  two centuries in the Western world is during this time. You can see during
• 41:25
  during medieval times, it was it was recognized that rigorous debate and discussion,
• 41:34
  rigorous evaluation and analysis were the important factors, the most important factors in reaching
• 41:42
  a consensus on what to do as a essentially a commune, a national action,
• 41:51
  a village action, a city action, a county action, or a
• 41:58
  national action. Right, But now we sort of substitute advertising, which is
• 42:07
  not the same because that's propaganda and then voting for those things, and I
• 42:16
  think that is part of why bad elements have been able to take over politics
• 42:23
  in every westernized nation because we've had this failure to engage in rigorous debate,
• 42:35
  rigorous analysis of ideas and information, and this is decision making. So we
• 42:44
  did get a super chow from Meredith. Meredith g gave us five dollars and
• 42:50
  said, HBr talk three oho two honey for the Badgers. As a person
• 42:52
  who actually majored in a history in college, the topic of suffrage didn't get
• 42:58
  covered accurately, which is interesting to know. I'm late on posting the super
• 43:04
  child because I'm in the middle of letting the federal government in my state take
• 43:07
  money from me, which I know exactly what that's about. That means I'm
• 43:10
  filing my taxes and I'm about to write some large checks. Yes, when
• 43:15
  you actually have the government stealing from you, you want a say in how
• 43:20
  said government spends that money. And yeah, I will say it. Taxation
• 43:24
  is stuffed, yes, fans, it's right of force. Right, So
• 43:31
  so there you go. So but back to this this history, this this
• 43:38
  agreements written up. John signed the agreement and then immediately appeal to Pope Innocent
• 43:49
  to back him in declaring it null and void, I want h Meanwhile,
• 43:57
  on his own, Pope Innocent condemned the agreement, claiming it was coerced and
• 44:04
  forbade observance or enforcement of it. And by the way, also, if
• 44:09
  I remember from what I read, he actually excommunicated the barons that wrote it
• 44:16
  from the Church. So it was it was it did not sit well with
• 44:24
  the dictatorship of the monarchy or the dictatorship of the church. The conditions that
• 44:34
  followed led to something called the First Baron's War, in which, you know,
• 44:39
  there there was actual fighting going on. During that war, John got
• 44:45
  sick and died, and his nine year old son, King Henry the Third
• 44:51
  became the monarch, and since he was nine years old, he didn't rule.
• 44:57
  He had executors that ruled on his behalf, and they sort of they
• 45:07
  made a bunch of agreements with the barons, but couldn't really enforce those agreements
• 45:13
  because they weren't the king. So everything sort of got put on hold until
• 45:19
  he reached the age of majority. So there was that that was going on.
• 45:24
  And at the same time, because England had a boy king instead of
• 45:31
  an adult man, you know, the Catholic Church interfered more. The French
• 45:38
  monarchy interfered more because John showed explicit and extensive weakness to the to the French
• 45:50
  monarchy. So the Charter was originally published see if I put the year down
• 45:57
  here, Yeah, I don't think I did, but during John's monarchy,
• 46:05
  but it was republished in twelve seventeen. So we are in the first quarter
• 46:15
  of the thirteenth century right now, right, So voting is sort of a
• 46:22
  there's sort of a proto voting system. The proto voters got mad and started
• 46:28
  a war with the king. The king died and left a child to be
• 46:34
  the king, and the second king his executors published the second version. The
• 46:44
  second version watered down the you can't tax us without our permission clause, which
• 46:52
  Americans should be paying attention to this simply because what was the battle cry for
• 46:58
  the Revolutionary War, No taxation without representation. So obviously something changed significantly between
• 47:07
  then and the American Revolution to make that a common attitude. So a two
• 47:15
  party system is considerably worse than a multiple baron system. Yeah, but the
• 47:22
  tea party system was kind of fun. Not the two party system, but
• 47:28
  the tea party system was kind of fun. So the other thing is that
• 47:32
  it gave the barons more authority over their feudal subjects, so they had more
• 47:37
  things that they could do, but the taxes thing, they kind of backed
• 47:45
  off on that for the time being, and the document continued to evolve over
• 47:52
  time. So there's been multiple versions of the Magna Carta, but you can
• 47:55
  find those on the UK government It's history blog website and among other things,
• 48:04
  like if you look it up, there's several places online where it's published and
• 48:07
  there are different versions of it published from different time periods, and they'll say,
• 48:10
  you know, this is the this year publication of the Magna Carta.
• 48:17
  The document continue to evolve, but two things in it are relevant to modern
• 48:27
  suffrage. One of them is the concept of council, which to me,
• 48:32
  that was the first hard limit on a monarch's unilateral power right. And that
• 48:39
  first hard limit is the obligation of the monarch to respect consent or dissent of
• 48:46
  the people. The monarchy relies on to govern segments of the country and see
• 48:52
  to the welfare of the subjects in those segments, so that's tied to responsibility
• 49:00
  and obligation. In the UK Government's History blog of this says the idea of
• 49:07
  Common Council of our kingdom shows that the barons were thinking of themselves as the
• 49:13
  embodiment of the community of the realm. So they weren't just voting based on
• 49:19
  their own personal interests. They were voting based on their obligation to the people,
• 49:23
  their responsibility for the people under them. The other is the legal establishment
• 49:30
  of the concept being very solidly drawn up in blood, because they fought a
• 49:37
  war, and the people under them, who were their militias, fought against
• 49:45
  the militias of the king. So they're fighting involved men with swords right and
• 50:00
  and bludgeoning weapons, and you know, their body armor either had to be
• 50:07
  made of metal or animal hides or very thick padding. And that was it.
• 50:17
  You know, men, men on horses, men on foot, beating
• 50:22
  the hell out of and killing each other over this issue. So this isn't
• 50:28
  just something that when we say voting rights are tied to military service. It's
• 50:32
  not just the twentieth century concept or the nineteenth century concept of the federal government.
• 50:44
  The national government can enact some sort of selective service draft conscription idea,
• 50:52
  and you all have to come and fight against some other country. It goes
• 50:58
  all the way back to the people of the nation fighting a war against the
• 51:05
  government of the nation and winning their right to vote by shedding blood and getting
• 51:15
  blown up. Yeah, men were getting Men had to get blown up for
• 51:22
  the vote. In fact, they had to get blown up before they even
• 51:25
  had the vote, whereas women got the vote by blowing ship up. Yep,
• 51:31
  they didn't even have to. But before you before you go, well,
• 51:36
  it's so, it's even worse if you have to blow ship up in
• 51:38
  order to get the vote. They didn't. They didn't have to. They
• 51:42
  just they That's how far they went. I mean, they probably would have
• 51:45
  got the vote anyway, just by just by prodding the men and saying,
• 51:50
  we want the vote, even though we don't have to get blown up,
• 51:52
  And it would have happened anyway. And it was just accelerationism and and it
• 51:58
  worked. Whereas men of yeah, I had to get blown up and this
• 52:07
  wasn't there was only centuries after. They had to get stabbed to death for
• 52:12
  centuries, not just to get the vote, but without even getting the vote.
• 52:17
  But even even the men who did have the vote, the noblemen and
• 52:22
  what have you, even they had to get stabbed to death in order to
• 52:24
  have the vote. To some degree here or there. You know, yep,
• 52:31
  this is back when if if your nation went to war or your barons
• 52:37
  went to war against your king, you know, you didn't just see a
• 52:43
  bunch of guys sitting in an office. Like they didn't have telephones, they
• 52:46
  didn't have radios, they didn't have CB radios or anything like that. Right,
• 52:52
  there was there was no wired or wireless communication. Everything was somebody carton
• 52:59
  a letter on horseback to get to you know, orders to the battlefield and
• 53:05
  things like that. Right, so, if your king was going to give
• 53:09
  orders to his military, he didn't sit in his castle and give orders to
• 53:14
  his military. He was out there on a battlefield at the risk of his
• 53:17
  life. And if your barons were up against your king and you had multiple
• 53:22
  militaries involved, you had all of those guys out there and it was all
• 53:28
  men. There were no women involved in this. So the question then is,
• 53:36
  you know, why is all this ancient history important? Right? I
• 53:39
  can hear right now feminists going, well, they didn't actually call it voting
• 53:44
  rights, and they didn't actually do this, they didn't actually do that.
• 53:46
  Well, it actually was the predecessor to Parliament, the Great Council, eventually
• 53:55
  got it called parliament. That is, it is the exact same thing,
• 54:07
  right, the exact same group of people doing the exact same analysis of ideas
• 54:12
  and debate eventually just started to be called parliament. It's not the same as
• 54:19
  modern representative parliament, but it is a clear predecessor, and I found the
• 54:25
  information I needed to confirm this on Australia's Parliamentary Education official web page, which
• 54:32
  cites twelve thirty six as the first instance when a Great Council was referred to
• 54:37
  as parliament, and then it also gives a pretty concise description of what happened
• 54:44
  next. One of the incarnations I guess you could say of parliament and this
• 54:50
  relationship between the monarchy and the next level down of nobles, King Henry third,
• 54:59
  as as he got old enough to actually be the decision maker and not
• 55:04
  have his executors making his decisions for him in his name and hoping that he
• 55:10
  would maintain what they decided, which more likely than not they would have expected
• 55:17
  him to, simply because you don't want to go back through like six or
• 55:22
  six or eight years of decisions made on your behalf. I'm sure they didn't
• 55:27
  wait till he was eighteen, because I doubt that eighteen was the age of
• 55:30
  the majority back then, considering you could get married at thirteen. But in
• 55:37
  any case, he repeated John's mistake of continuing his conflict with the barons being
• 55:44
  heavy handed, spending issues and so on. And because of that, the
• 55:51
  Second Barons War happened. And again I'm gonna give you the caveat. This
• 55:58
  is a really brief description of something that was much more big and complicated than
• 56:04
  all that. But what's relevant to voting rights is that that is what happened.
• 56:08
  So they have this Second Baron's War. Simon de Montfort gathered to parliament
• 56:16
  during during this time, and this was not a long event. This was
• 56:20
  a fairly short event. And we are skipping forward to this event taking place
• 56:27
  in twelve sixty four, So we were at twelve seventeen in the first quarter
• 56:35
  of the thirteenth century. We are now in the third quarter of the thirteenth
• 56:42
  century. So there's a big jump there of history that isn't necessarily dramatic enough
• 56:50
  in its influence on this to talk about in this show. So people know
• 56:57
  I'm not just like skipping important things. It's not that it's unimportant, it's
• 57:01
  just that it didn't. It doesn't change anything. I could go over that
• 57:06
  whole time and it wouldn't change anything. But one big change in de Montfort's
• 57:14
  parliament was that, unlike previous great councils, which were just the nobles and
• 57:22
  the clergy, he asked commoners to attend. That was unheard of previously.
• 57:32
  So that was the the very real predecessor of modern parliament. And like I
• 57:42
  did, I didn't understand the division divisions in parliament today until I read this,
• 57:50
  and I realized that the reason there's a House of Lords and a House
• 57:53
  of Commons was because of this parliament happening the United States. We don't want
• 58:00
  have nobles. We don't have We never had a monarchy as a nation we
• 58:07
  were We only had a monarchy when we were colonies of England. So we
• 58:13
  started out with a complete rejection of the idea of commoners and nobles. And
• 58:21
  so our are two branches, Our two legislative branches are both commoners, because
• 58:30
  all of us are commoners. We only have commoners, you know, if
• 58:36
  you want to put that way. Apparently George Washington was given the offer to
• 58:42
  be the King of the United States, and I guess it was I say,
• 58:49
  it's ironically noble of him to say no, no, no, no,
• 58:52
  I would never accept such an accolade. But you have to wonder how
• 58:58
  history would have played out if had said yes, yeah, things would have
• 59:01
  been he was a good guy, you know, yep, And it would
• 59:07
  have been if we went with an ancestral monarchy. Right like like most places,
• 59:20
  none of the presidents that were president throughout the history of the United States
• 59:25
  would have served because it would have all been the descendants of George Washington.
• 59:35
  So I don't know. I don't know how that would have gone, but
• 59:38
  I do know this, it's not what we did, that what our forefathers
• 59:45
  did. So so our history is as it is. But we won't get
• 59:50
  into US history in very much in this episode because it happens much later than
• 59:58
  this. At this point time, there was no United States, right,
• 1:00:01
  there was. There weren't even colonies. I don't think yet there might have
• 1:00:08
  there there were, there were, they were, they were starting to colonize
• 1:00:13
  in Ice. There was travel taking place at this point in time, either
• 1:00:16
  this point in time or let's see, because we had four hundred years of
• 1:00:22
  colonial history before before the Revolutionary War, so I have to go back and
• 1:00:30
  look at that. But in any case, yeah, we were, we're
• 1:00:36
  not. We're not going to Salem. Salem has little to nothing to do
• 1:00:39
  with what I watched me find something in the meantime that I have to talk
• 1:00:44
  about Salem. But in any case, let's see here. So the parliament
• 1:00:52
  that Montford created, like he he was killed in battle just a couple months
• 1:00:59
  later by the son of Henry the third, Edward, who is you know,
• 1:01:08
  sort of next in line in discussing the vote here, but it is
• 1:01:13
  considered a press it predecessor of modern parliaments because it included commoners. So the
• 1:01:20
  interesting thing about this is this is sort of where commoner, not so much
• 1:01:27
  commoner, but community voting starts taking place, because if you're going to send
• 1:01:34
  commoners to to parliament, you have to have a community decision. Who goes
• 1:01:45
  to parliament, Who's who's the commoners that are gonna gonna head out. So
• 1:01:50
  this is when local elections expanded the concept of common council from the nobility and
• 1:01:58
  the clergy to commoners via their elected representatives. And again the right of ensuring
• 1:02:06
  the decisions of the monarch would rely on consent or or dissent of men's and
• 1:02:13
  positions and responsibility very solidly written in blood. This was when when they call
• 1:02:19
  it a war, this was not a big argument among people. There was
• 1:02:24
  fighting and bleeding and dying and permanent injury and you know, killing, maiming
• 1:02:31
  and uh spindling and mutilating and all of that taking place where uh men,
• 1:02:42
  men suffered for this and died for this. And there's another consideration that needs
• 1:02:52
  to be discussed, and that I didn't really find a whole lot of discussion
• 1:02:57
  about it in the literature. But this is a historical act that I think
• 1:03:00
  anybody wants to dispute this is gonna have to find me something that shows I'm
• 1:03:06
  wrong about this. But and and it's something I think a lot of modern
• 1:03:09
  people don't think about. Right. So if I want to go to California
• 1:03:14
  today, I canna hop in my car, my van. My van's not
• 1:03:17
  in good enough shape to get out there. I'd probably rent one, but
• 1:03:21
  hop in a vehicle that's in good shape and drive myself out there. When
• 1:03:27
  Kennesai University, when we had an event down there in Georgia, you know,
• 1:03:34
  I'm I'm in Dayton, and I drove myself down to Kennesais University for
• 1:03:40
  this event, and spent the night down there and then drove myself back,
• 1:03:50
  you know, and it's like a several hour drive in a vehicle that had
• 1:04:00
  you know, it's an enclosure. It has heating and air conditioning. When
• 1:04:05
  when it's rainy, I don't get wet. When it's cold, I don't
• 1:04:10
  get cold. When it's too hot, I can cool off. I can
• 1:04:15
  I can drive it with one hand. It's ill advised, but I can
• 1:04:18
  do it right. And I don't have to worry that somebody's gonna drive it
• 1:04:23
  beside me in another vehicle and force me off the road and steal from me
• 1:04:30
  on I seventy five driving to or from Georgia, because there's enough patrol that
• 1:04:39
  people would be afraid to do that. It'd be afraid they would get caught
• 1:04:42
  and busted and jailed for it. So you know where I live. And
• 1:04:47
  then and if if something goes wrong with my vehicle, right, if I
• 1:04:51
  decided to not take my own advice and drive something that wasn't in good shape
• 1:04:59
  for for some reason, and it breaks down on the side of the road,
• 1:05:05
  I can whip out my phone and call for help. And I can
• 1:05:12
  call police for help. I can call a tow truck for help. I
• 1:05:16
  can contact my husband and let him know I'm okay, you know all that
• 1:05:21
  kind of stuff. If there's an accident and I'm injured, I can call
• 1:05:28
  for help, or if I'm unconscious and somebody sees me, they can call
• 1:05:30
  for help. And if nobody calls for help, there's enough patrol taking place
• 1:05:38
  on I seventy five that somebody who will call for help will eventually find me.
• 1:05:43
  Like, that's the conditions under which we travel today. That's not how
• 1:05:49
  it was during the time period we're discussing. So if you wanted to travel
• 1:05:56
  across the country to go participate in this meeting, you walked, or you
• 1:06:01
  rode a horse, or you had a carriage and a driver, and you
• 1:06:09
  know, obviously the cheapest way to go is walk. Very dangerous. Wild
• 1:06:15
  animals could get you. You brigands could get you. You might get kidnapped
• 1:06:19
  because you're you're of a noble family, and noble families can pay ransom,
• 1:06:27
  and if they don't, you might get killed. Right, the weather could
• 1:06:32
  kill you or at least make you very sick. You know, you could
• 1:06:39
  get injured, and if you did get injured, nobody might find you for
• 1:06:44
  days or weeks. There was no way to call for help. You didn't
• 1:06:47
  have phones, you didn't have any kind of communication aside from sending a person
• 1:06:55
  right. So, travel across country was very dangerous. It wasn't something that
• 1:06:59
  you just took lightly. And the more safe you made it by adding more
• 1:07:03
  people to your travel party or adding more luxury like a horse or a carriage,
• 1:07:12
  it became very expensive. So it was an expensive burden to travel across
• 1:07:16
  country. And then on top of all of that, you also didn't know
• 1:07:23
  how illness happened, but you did know that traveling made it more likely for
• 1:07:30
  you to pick up illnesses that were not happening where you were from. So
• 1:07:36
  essentially, travel took place at extreme risk to the traveler, and the further
• 1:07:45
  you were traveling, the more of this extreme risk you were experiencing. It's
• 1:07:50
  exactly the kind of dangerous thing. Women were not excluded from it. Women
• 1:07:55
  could travel, but they didn't have to, you know, unless there was
• 1:08:00
  something going on that specifically required the woman to be in another location. You
• 1:08:06
  know, her husband died and she had to go back to her family,
• 1:08:12
  you know, or some such thing like that she and her husband are moving,
• 1:08:15
  which wasn't exactly a norm, you know, or or some unusual thing
• 1:08:24
  happened to cause her to need travel, you know, unless she was very
• 1:08:28
  rich and she could afford to make travel very safe for her, and she
• 1:08:35
  was of the type of family where her personal guard, which was also very
• 1:08:42
  expensive, carried with it a level of authority that made people more afraid to
• 1:08:46
  attack her caravan than say a merchant caravan or commoner caravan going to her from
• 1:08:57
  someplace, when men weren't necessarily going to take this risk very much, which
• 1:09:05
  is the reason why representation wasn't something that excluded women by sex. There wasn't
• 1:09:15
  some law in place that said women couldn't go, women couldn't participate in this,
• 1:09:21
  Women didn't have to, women weren't obligated. The expectation that women would
• 1:09:29
  take the risk was not imposed. It was imposed on men. So when
• 1:09:38
  feminists talk about the patriarchy keeping women out of the vote during this time,
• 1:09:43
  they are so full of shit that you could grow a garden on them.
• 1:09:50
  This was an obligation on men in positions of responsibility, not a man's right
• 1:09:58
  from which women were arbitrarily excluded. So here is where I start to get
• 1:10:05
  some interesting information. In twenty thirteen, there's a paper written for the UK
• 1:10:09
  Parliament's Research Briefings Online Library titled the History of the Parliamentary Franchise. Neil Johnston
• 1:10:20
  explains in this paper before fourteen thirty fourteen thirty is unique for another reason,
• 1:10:27
  But before fourteen thirty there is evidence that the right to vote for the Knights
• 1:10:32
  of the Shires and English county elections. Shire is older English for county was
• 1:10:43
  given to every free inhabitant householder, freeholder and non freeholder. There was no
• 1:10:51
  requirement for freeholders to be landed freeholders. The freehold could relate to something other
• 1:10:58
  than land. Hey, Tyler Preston says, crap is more useful than feminists.
• 1:11:05
  That is true. So essentially what he's saying there is there wasn't a
• 1:11:13
  law that barred certain groups of people from voting based on their gender, and
• 1:11:19
  that's what it says in the next paragraph here no exclusion codified into law for
• 1:11:26
  women. There is a supposition, and this is something I found throughout my
• 1:11:30
  research, like a bunch of different sources would suppose or presume that women were
• 1:11:39
  excluded by tradition. Right, The supposition that local tradition would cause the same
• 1:11:45
  exclusion, but none of them had any kind of reference to any incidents,
• 1:11:54
  any writings, anything that proves that women were excluded from voting rights. There
• 1:12:06
  was a document found in twenty thirteen, I think a little after that blog
• 1:12:15
  post was published, pertaining to nineteenth century elections that indicates that tradition might not
• 1:12:25
  have been as exclusionary as people might think. So when we talk about this,
• 1:12:30
  I'm not going to assume that women never voted in these elections, because
• 1:12:35
  there's not. I couldn't find any evidence that solidified that. I could only
• 1:12:43
  find evidence that voting took place and what the stipulations were. The stipulations themselves
• 1:12:50
  may have minimized the number of women who would make themselves eligible for this type
• 1:12:57
  of voting that would take on the responsibility. And at these times in the
• 1:13:01
  in the thirteenth century and fourteenth century, voting rights were still not seen so
• 1:13:09
  much as rights. They were seen as obligations. So Johnston explains two basic
• 1:13:16
  types of voting franchise, county and borough. So I here here's where the
• 1:13:27
  vocabulary lesson comes in, because I'm like Burrow is included in the names of
• 1:13:33
  a lot of communities in the United States, but never really you know,
• 1:13:43
  or berg, not burrow, with berga same word as but and there's an
• 1:13:50
  older version of the word berg that is shorter and that is burrough. But
• 1:13:57
  Berg, Yeah, they're both, they're both in town names. So in
• 1:14:01
  medieval England, that's an urban center identified by a charter granting privileges autonomy and
• 1:14:11
  as the concept developed in corporation, so it's an autonomous corporation. It functioned
• 1:14:16
  outside of the hierarchy of the shire, which basically means county, as the
• 1:14:23
  next definition shows, and something called a hundred, so it was a village
• 1:14:28
  of town or a city. A burg or a borough was a village of
• 1:14:30
  town or a city. In the definition I have here for shire, one
• 1:14:36
  of the things that's important to understand it was a shire would contain more than
• 1:14:44
  one hundred, It had an alderman or elderman, a sheriff. It.
• 1:14:55
  It was replaced after the Norman conquest by the French term county, and county
• 1:15:01
  is a French term. One hundred is a unit of English local government and
• 1:15:09
  taxation, so there's where that taxation comes in. So your voting rights being
• 1:15:14
  determined by your borough, your burgh, or your shire meant they were determined
• 1:15:20
  by your unit of taxation, and it generally originally meant a group of one
• 1:15:30
  hundred hides like hide like the animal skin, and a hide was basically a
• 1:15:38
  farm, the land necessary to support a free peasant family, and the farm
• 1:15:48
  was the earliest basis of taxation and also for mustering. The primitive English militia
• 1:15:58
  known as the Feared, and the Feared was a militia like arrangement existing in
• 1:16:05
  Anglo Saxon, England from approximately eighty six hundred and five, so by the
• 1:16:13
  time the concept of parliament came around where we were about six hundred years a
• 1:16:20
  little more than six hundred years later than the origin of this concept. It
• 1:16:27
  imposed military service on every able bodied free mail finds imposed for neglecting the feared
• 1:16:35
  varied with the status of the individual landholders who were more wealthy right receiving the
• 1:16:44
  heaviest fines, and common laborers like serfs who might own nothing and like it.
• 1:16:49
  I guess they received the lightest. And I have a link. So
• 1:16:55
  if you want to see more discussion about the feared, and find that paragraph
• 1:17:01
  in that post, and underneath it there's a link. The Anglo Saxon feared
• 1:17:09
  to read about it. But what these definitions are important to in terms besides
• 1:17:15
  understanding the discussion, because the discussion is going to include these terms, is
• 1:17:23
  the connection between them provides an understanding of the very solid connection between land division,
• 1:17:30
  land ownership, men's obligation toward the community in military service, something that
• 1:17:38
  we want to bear in mind as as we keep reading here. Service is
• 1:17:45
  the important word there. Services like like I was, like I was saying
• 1:17:48
  earlier about George Washington and the like. And the worst thing you can do
• 1:17:59
  with power is to give it to people who want it because because that's where
• 1:18:05
  that's where corruption comes from. Indeed, absolute corruption and and and this is
• 1:18:12
  this is one of the biggest problems with democracy. And it gives power to
• 1:18:15
  people who actively seek it. They they campaigned for it, and it's it's
• 1:18:25
  just asking for trouble. Whereas uh, the the idea of of of of
• 1:18:31
  monarchy of power that is handed down to a baby like the one of the
• 1:18:38
  first things they learned is that you know, you have to lead this country.
• 1:18:42
  Doesn't matter if you want to or not, you have to do this.
• 1:18:46
  That's when the ruler becomes not a power hungry bastard. But someone who
• 1:18:57
  has to do it, I eat a servant, and I mean I guess
• 1:19:02
  they have options to abdicate or at least to pass down these responsibilities to let's
• 1:19:12
  say, barons or accounts in the case of counties, or sheriffs in the
• 1:19:17
  case of shires. But it's I know it doesn't make sense to those who
• 1:19:25
  have lived through hundreds of years of what they call a republic. But what
• 1:19:31
  you really want is for the people in power to be servants rather than tyrants.
• 1:19:41
  And how do you achieve that? You make them do it? Buy
• 1:19:47
  something like a bloodline. You kind of say, well, I don't care
• 1:19:51
  if you want to do it or not, you have to. It's it's
• 1:19:54
  much like with jury duty. This is why to this day we still we
• 1:20:00
  give the the power of the and the responsibility of jury duty to people who
• 1:20:06
  don't want it, because because otherwise you're going to get power hungry bostards in
• 1:20:15
  deciding who goes to hang on who goes free, which is kind of what
• 1:20:19
  we have under democracy. Imagine how history would be different if instead of our
• 1:20:31
  our political system being you decide to run for office and then you campaign and
• 1:20:39
  people decide whether to consent or disagree to dissent, and and they vote for
• 1:20:45
  or against your campaign, and either you get in or you don't. Imagine
• 1:20:51
  if instead of that, you get a jury selection type system where hundreds of
• 1:21:00
  people are asked to respond, and then initially dozens of them are eliminated based
• 1:21:08
  on disqualifying factors, and then a small group of them present. You know,
• 1:21:15
  this is this is the way that I will handle things. If I
• 1:21:19
  if I have to do this job and and then people decide whether they like
• 1:21:27
  it or not and vote for you, that would be that would be very
• 1:21:30
  different because people there would be people like me that would get caught up in
• 1:21:35
  that I I will. You know, I don't want to run for office.
• 1:21:40
  I don't want to be in that position. I don't want to make
• 1:21:43
  those decisions for everybody else. And I don't feel It's not that I don't
• 1:21:48
  feel qualified. I don't feel I don't feel entirely uh, I don't feel
• 1:21:57
  like I have the aptitude for it. So my mom did. And my
• 1:22:02
  mom didn't get up one day and decided she was going to run for city
• 1:22:05
  council in our community. She got up one day and she decided that she
• 1:22:11
  was going to engage in activism in the community to get the park in our
• 1:22:15
  neighborhood fixed up. And she gathered people together and community organized and she did
• 1:22:21
  that and then she was done doing that. But then when the next election
• 1:22:28
  cycle for city council came along, the local Republicans did not have a candidate
• 1:22:32
  for the ward that we lived in, and everybody was like, well,
• 1:22:38
  you know, this woman did this. Look at this park. Look what
• 1:22:42
  it looks like now. Two years ago it was a vacant lot full of
• 1:22:46
  broken glass and trash, and nobody could go in there, and people's kids
• 1:22:54
  avoided it, and so on, let's go talk to her and they did,
• 1:22:59
  and initially she was very resistant to the idea, said I don't want
• 1:23:03
  to do this, you know. Well then she talked about it with my
• 1:23:06
  dad and she talked to We had a whole family discussion about this, and
• 1:23:11
  know this, is this something that would be okay for the family. Is
• 1:23:15
  this something that the kids are willing to sacrifice for, because the kids are
• 1:23:20
  the ones that are going to lose a little time with mom. Is this
• 1:23:26
  something that we are willing to accept. And once the whole family was on
• 1:23:32
  board with it. Then she agreed she was running unopposed, so she was
• 1:23:38
  agreeing basically to serve. And she still had to do all of the legwork
• 1:23:45
  of registering for the election and proving that she was eligible and all that,
• 1:23:53
  and she still had to get on the ballot, which meant she had to
• 1:23:56
  canvas the neighborhood and get people's signatures to let her run. But once that
• 1:24:00
  happened, you know, she was pretty much in and she ran unopposed that
• 1:24:04
  election, and then she she went on to run for the at large seat
• 1:24:13
  the next time around because there were things that were going on that needed addressed,
• 1:24:18
  and she realized, I can't do the job for the ward without being
• 1:24:25
  able to do the job for the whole community because of these things. And
• 1:24:30
  then then she ran for president of city Council for the same reason. And
• 1:24:35
  then that was the end of her political career. She was done after that.
• 1:24:41
  She didn't run again for years and years, and that was that was
• 1:24:47
  how she got into it. She didn't get into it because she was like,
• 1:24:50
  I want to be in charge. She got into it because somebody else
• 1:24:55
  came along and said, we need somebody to do this job. And she
• 1:24:58
  did a good job. In fact, she was the only person who was
• 1:25:03
  reelected for a position after our little small town controversy when we had a man
• 1:25:12
  falsely accused and fired from a position when he should have been promoted in the
• 1:25:17
  police department, and she basically saved that guy and our police department and our
• 1:25:28
  community from some serious wrongdoing and the fallout from that wrongdoing. So it is
• 1:25:38
  important having the community come to you as much as having you come to the
• 1:25:42
  community. And our system is not There isn't a perfect system, right.
• 1:25:49
  Our system is definitely not the worst system out there, and it's not the
• 1:25:53
  best system out there. But it would be interesting if in order to run
• 1:25:59
  for public office you had to be drafted into it and to not be able
• 1:26:06
  to find a way out of it, even though it might interrupt what you're
• 1:26:11
  doing with your life. Like I wouldn't want to stop what I am doing
• 1:26:15
  the people that I take care of. I don't feel like there's somebody else
• 1:26:20
  that would just step into the position that I fell right now and do the
• 1:26:26
  same things that I do, and I feel like they would suffer because I
• 1:26:30
  was gone and I would worry about them. That's the kind of thing you
• 1:26:34
  need to have in mind to be a good public servant. You run this
• 1:26:42
  business, you have this job at this local place that you have a client
• 1:26:46
  tele that depends on you, our customer base that depends on you. Your
• 1:26:50
  life in this community is important, and the community is important to you.
• 1:26:56
  That's you know, that's more important in my opinion than wanting to serve.
• 1:27:03
  But yeah, so service being the operative word. According to Johnston's description for
• 1:27:19
  sending people to parliament back in the thirteenth century, in fourteenth century or back
• 1:27:30
  in the fourteenth and fifteenth century, really aside from legislation to address corrupt officials
• 1:27:36
  by bypassing the election process, nothing changed from pretty much no regulation to fourteen
• 1:27:49
  twenty nine, and in fourteen twenty nine there was a position, a petition,
• 1:27:57
  and in fourteen thirty there was actual law passed. The complaint, essentially
• 1:28:04
  was that poor people were voting on what was viewed as the pretense of having
• 1:28:11
  an equal voice to that of a night or an esquire. So we talked
• 1:28:14
  about the obligations and service and so on, a night or an esquire had
• 1:28:23
  obligations that that you're commoner, the the literal filthy commoner, the serfs,
• 1:28:30
  the people depicted in money, python and the Holy Grail as harvesting mud,
• 1:28:35
  harvesting filth. You know, like those guys didn't necessarily have to report for
• 1:28:43
  military duty. They didn't owe any particular service to their community. They lived
• 1:28:51
  on land that was provided for them by their lord, and they're they paid
• 1:28:56
  for it by working in his fields. And then they might also have other
• 1:29:03
  work they did for their own income and provisioning. But they didn't have if
• 1:29:15
  if there was a call out for people to fill in military roles to go
• 1:29:20
  fight a war against France for some stretch of land on the border between England
• 1:29:26
  and France, they didn't get called up for that. And they also there
• 1:29:33
  were a lot of other rights that they didn't have as well, so they
• 1:29:36
  didn't get a vote. They initially did, but this changed things. According
• 1:29:43
  to Johnston, the petition called for the vote to be restricted to those freeholders
• 1:29:49
  resident in a county with a freehold value of forty shillings a year, which
• 1:29:56
  was basically the cost of a year's rent. A free was not restricted to
• 1:30:00
  land. It could refer to many types of property. So think of it
• 1:30:05
  as let's say you were a cab driver in modern modern times and you owned
• 1:30:15
  your cab. Maybe you owned a cab company and you made the same amount
• 1:30:20
  from your cab company that my landlord makes annually in rent payments, you would
• 1:30:31
  qualify under this standard. I don't know about what types of property this referred
• 1:30:40
  to back then, but just from modern a modern perspective, that's basically when
• 1:30:45
  it says it doesn't mean you had to own land, it does mean still
• 1:30:49
  that you had to make that much money, so you had to have some
• 1:30:53
  sort of financial endeavor that made you that level of responsible. Basically, the
• 1:31:02
  petition led in fourteen thirty to such a statute being passed and all leaseholders,
• 1:31:11
  so me being reader that doesn't have that type of earning from something I own,
• 1:31:19
  regardless of the value of their least land, were stripped of the vote.
• 1:31:25
  The forty shilling resident freeholder requirement for the county franchise remained until eighteen thirty
• 1:31:31
  two, which we won't discuss the legal change in eighteen thirty two in this
• 1:31:36
  episode. I hope. I think we'll probably get to we'll get that far
• 1:31:41
  the next episode, but we won't discuss that in depth tonight. But that's
• 1:31:46
  how long it lasted. The interpretation of what constituted a freehold changed over time,
• 1:31:53
  but aside from that was the that was the county standard. The University
• 1:31:59
  of Nottingham defines a freehold, so people understand what that is as land held
• 1:32:06
  in fee. Simple freehold land was owned absolutely by the owner who was able
• 1:32:14
  to sell it, pass it it will or settle it dot dot dot.
• 1:32:17
  There's more to that definition and it's linked. And then Britannica got dot com
• 1:32:24
  adds that the term originally designated the owner of an estate held in free tenure
• 1:32:30
  who possessed under the Magna Carta. So again the Magna Carta affects your voting
• 1:32:36
  rights based on what was laid out in it. The rights of a freeman.
• 1:32:43
  A freehold was distinguished from non freehold estates. And in order to be
• 1:32:48
  an owner of that type of land, that was free in that manner,
• 1:32:54
  so it wasn't land you were renting from a lord or a baron. You
• 1:33:00
  had to do something like be a night provide night service to the king.
• 1:33:05
  Frankelmoine. H. Frankel Moine was a religious thing, so you basically like
• 1:33:13
  donated your land to the church or you did a service for the church.
• 1:33:17
  Uh. And that was equivalent. Uh and UH or or you had you
• 1:33:26
  paid taxes, uh free soakage which involved certain services of farming, manual labor.
• 1:33:33
  So you basically earned the land through service, and that included military service.
• 1:33:43
  For for the the Americans who don't speak English, especially Middle Middle Age
• 1:33:50
  English or Medieval English, soakage was land tenure in which the tenant lived on
• 1:33:56
  his lord's land and in return did an agricultural service. So you basically earned
• 1:34:04
  your land through through soakage and you got soaked. And of course in feudal
• 1:34:14
  society, lords were the individuals who held land from the king, So the
• 1:34:18
  king was the owner of all the kingdom. Lords were responsible for those sections
• 1:34:28
  of land. They managed that land, and they provided military service to the
• 1:34:32
  king. So again we're looking at these rights being directly associated with military service,
• 1:34:44
  with service to the king. Not you have the right to vote because
• 1:34:49
  you're special because you have a you know, something hanging between your legs.
• 1:34:57
  Right, how the hell had worked? You had to do something, you
• 1:35:01
  know, And I was gonna say earlier when you were talking about the statues,
• 1:35:09
  you know, well, you were talking about you know, the men
• 1:35:13
  that did service for their countries and that's why they were recognized and That's why
• 1:35:19
  that's what's so offensive about them trying to take these statues down, Like you
• 1:35:25
  don't even know the work, You don't even understand the history, you don't
• 1:35:30
  know the work that these men did for this country. But your first reaction
• 1:35:38
  when you hear something that you're whatever teacher in college told you, is,
• 1:35:45
  oh my god, we have to burn it down. We have to take
• 1:35:47
  it down. What does that do? It does nothing, It just it
• 1:35:53
  doesn't even doesn't even alleviate the frustration that you feel. No, no,
• 1:36:00
  and the people that they are whose honor they're tearing down. For the most
• 1:36:06
  part, they're tearing down the honor of dead people who do not care because
• 1:36:13
  they're not here, right, So they're they're trying to tear down the remembrance
• 1:36:19
  of that honor. Right. Lords, for instance, they were they had
• 1:36:26
  their service to the king, right, they had their service to the people.
• 1:36:30
  They were responsible for providing protection for their subjects, maintaining law and order,
• 1:36:36
  and collecting taxes. So they had they had to be the guy that
• 1:36:42
  nobody liked, you know, when it came to the tax collecting. And
• 1:36:46
  they also had to be the person who created the system in their area to
• 1:36:56
  reduce the chances that people traveling through their lands would be attacked by brigands and
• 1:37:02
  robbed. You know, so yeah, that they're what we're what's being torn
• 1:37:11
  down in that situation is our ability to remember this that it wasn't just a
• 1:37:19
  bunch of old men and you know, old white males making decisions and speaking
• 1:37:28
  in in snooty tones and going back and dropping new laws on the people and
• 1:37:33
  the people just obeying them, and voting rights being handed out to men like
• 1:37:40
  candy and blah blah. No, there was a whole system of blood and
• 1:37:45
  sweat and death associated with it that resided on male obligation. So let's see.
• 1:37:58
  So the forty shilling Franchise of fourteen thirty established the voting rights in county
• 1:38:04
  elections, which were to send county members to Parliament, were to be limited
• 1:38:13
  to only those earning shillings annually in rent from property earned through military service to
• 1:38:18
  the Crown or similarly dedicated service to the church. As Johnson explains, the
• 1:38:29
  forty shilling resident freeholder requirement for the county franchise remain until eighteen thirty two,
• 1:38:34
  although the interpretation of what constituted a freehold was extended in the intervening years,
• 1:38:41
  and their residency requirement gradually became obsolete. He further points out that this gave
• 1:38:45
  a whopping one point three five percent of the population voting rights. So when
• 1:38:55
  feminists act like all men had voting rights going back through history and they withheld
• 1:39:00
  them from women, remember that when voting was first a thing that commoners did
• 1:39:09
  that non you know, non members of the Great Council did that. People
• 1:39:15
  did to send commoners to the Great Council and knights to the Great Council.
• 1:39:20
  The people involved in that process constituted one point five percent of the population.
• 1:39:35
  Let's see, and he explains, in eighteen thirty one, just before Reforms
• 1:39:44
  of the Great the Reforms of the Great Reform Act, Middlesex had a population
• 1:39:48
  of one million, three hundred and fifty eight thousand, three hundred and thirty
• 1:39:53
  people at an estimate estimated electorate of three thousand or point two two percent.
• 1:40:01
  But in Herefordshire, Herefordshire, the figures were estimated four thousand voters from a
• 1:40:11
  population of one hundred and eleven thousand, two hundred and eleven people, and
• 1:40:15
  that's three point six percent. So we're looking at essentially ninety five percent of
• 1:40:23
  people definitely could not vote, and of the remaining five percent, it might
• 1:40:28
  range from just under four percent to less than one percent of the population being
• 1:40:35
  eligible to vote, depending on where you're from, and that's the county franchise,
• 1:40:41
  right borough franchise. Johnston found no set criteria, no uniform franchise across
• 1:40:48
  the nation, so if you lived in one city, you might have a
• 1:40:51
  different system than another city. And so there were what he found was like
• 1:40:59
  a variety of types of franchise that he put into categories that that you know,
• 1:41:06
  most cities and towns would fit into one of these categories. They did
• 1:41:12
  one of these things. So the first one is scott and Lot, which
• 1:41:20
  is basically tax based and it's qualification by taxpayer status. Then we have something
• 1:41:28
  called potwallaper. Pot walloper is somebody that it owns their own pot and it
• 1:41:40
  boils their own pot of food at their own own fireplace. So essentially you're
• 1:41:45
  not homeless and you're not living in a poorhouse. You have your place and
• 1:41:53
  you live there and you eat there. So that's it. Your eligibility for
• 1:41:59
  voting was is you were not on welfare. There were a lot of people
• 1:42:02
  that were, then you have I'm learning some glorious slang terms that I did
• 1:42:09
  I didn't even know with with with which the British vernacular was furnished. I
• 1:42:14
  have to use that against someone. You have fucking part wallerper Well, it's
• 1:42:17
  not a bad thing. It just means you own. Well, it doesn't
• 1:42:20
  even mean you own your home. It means you live. It means you're
• 1:42:24
  not on welfare. How dare you not be on welfare? Just like Scott
• 1:42:29
  and lot Scott and lot Scott. If I remember, right, was the
• 1:42:34
  rent and a lot was the residence, so you basically, oh no,
• 1:42:41
  it was the tax and a lot was the resident. Then if I'm pronouncing
• 1:42:46
  this right, I've seen it pronounced two different ways, but the more common
• 1:42:50
  one i've seen is burgage. So that's what I'm going to say. So
• 1:42:54
  if it's pronounced differently than that, I'm sorry. John And describes burgage as
• 1:43:01
  land and or property tenure in a town for which payment was usually made to
• 1:43:06
  the king or a lord by the exchange of money rather than services, So
• 1:43:13
  by virtue of being a property renter from the national government as opposed to from
• 1:43:24
  a being a sub letter. So you might might rent a large area of
• 1:43:29
  land, and then you put buildings on it, and you rent rooms in
• 1:43:32
  those buildings. In some places the people who rented those rooms might not be
• 1:43:39
  eligible to vote, but you were freeman. Burroughs was a freeman was a
• 1:43:45
  man who was not a noble or a serf, so basically a regular commoner
• 1:43:54
  who was independent, financially independent, and to be financially independent you had to
• 1:44:02
  have some level of obligation or employment. So, as Johnson writes, when
• 1:44:06
  early boroughs were granted chapters or charters, they many made reference to freeman who
• 1:44:15
  had to undertake municipal duties. So you had as a freeman, you had
• 1:44:20
  a city job, and the status of freeman was incorporated into the rules governing
• 1:44:28
  the parliamentary franchise within some parliamentary boroughs. Then they had corporation, Borroughs,
• 1:44:33
  so something a lot of people don't understand. Once incorporation was invented in English
• 1:44:41
  common law, a corporation is just a legal entity that allows a group to
• 1:44:51
  act as a single entity. So if you have a business that is run
• 1:44:58
  by a board, you don't have you know, the fifteen board members acting
• 1:45:02
  separately under the law, they vote on a course of action and the legal
• 1:45:08
  entity that is the business that that is the corporation. Right, your city
• 1:45:15
  government is incorporated, your county government is incorporated, your state government is incorporated.
• 1:45:26
  In your federal or national government is incorporated. Each of those constitutes a
• 1:45:31
  corporation. So when people talk about government and corporate interests, they're saying corporate
• 1:45:39
  and corporate interests, just so you know, So corporation, Bros. Basically,
• 1:45:45
  the local government voted on who went to parliament, so the people didn't
• 1:45:53
  get to vote. But the local government might be a town council, the
• 1:46:00
  was voted on by the local people. So it used to be there used
• 1:46:08
  to be similar, sort of a similar setup in the United States where there
• 1:46:16
  were there were communities where you might have a local council that will vote for
• 1:46:21
  mayor and and so on. So there there were things like that have precedents
• 1:46:28
  here too. So in discussing, you know, in discussing this, this
• 1:46:36
  basically shows that where you lived determined how you might vote, as in your
• 1:46:45
  town or community. Then he went on and sort of described this. This
• 1:46:54
  was a tougher thing to get through, and I had to look in other
• 1:46:58
  sources for more information on this because it was. You know, he was
• 1:47:01
  really brief in his description of different different countries that God included Scotland, Wales
• 1:47:16
  and Ireland. He didn't really get into Australia because he was talking about earlier
• 1:47:20
  times. So Welsh representation in parliament regular Welsh representation in Parliament dates back to
• 1:47:33
  the mid sixteenth century, so well after the the the forty shilling franchise,
• 1:47:45
  and he says it started in the last Parliament summoned by Edward Second in the
• 1:47:50
  reign of Henry the third, the duty of sending a knight to the shire.
• 1:47:55
  You notice he said duty of sending a knight to the shire of the
• 1:48:00
  shire to Westminster and paying for his expenses. Remember I talked about the expensive
• 1:48:04
  travel was regarded as a financial burden and Welsh communities were not high income communities,
• 1:48:15
  so this might be seen as why they were only required to send one
• 1:48:18
  member of Parliament at that time. And and that that was that that was
• 1:48:26
  a pattern at that point and it's probably still affected by that. Ireland and
• 1:48:31
  Scotland are complicated matter. And I I the research I did on that,
• 1:48:41
  I spent several hours going through and writing things down and then not including them
• 1:48:50
  in this because they weren't directly related to the vote. They just helped me
• 1:48:54
  understand the things that were. So we're not going to get into all that
• 1:49:00
  history because that would be like a month's worth of shows. We'll just say
• 1:49:03
  from the American perspective, like we can understand Ireland a little bit if you
• 1:49:09
  think about how the various tribes of Native Americans were kind of at war with
• 1:49:17
  each other informing treaties and breaking them and so on for a long time prior
• 1:49:25
  to colonization by Britain and Spain here in France. That's the Irish were kind
• 1:49:34
  of like that. They had a lot of conflict going on and a lot
• 1:49:40
  of they were settling their differences. And Ireland and Scotland, like like I
• 1:49:46
  said, the Scots were Irish before they were Scottish, so but there were
• 1:49:58
  conflicts that led to that as well. So that's all historical. And then
• 1:50:02
  then you also had a different system of nobility in Ireland where there was a
• 1:50:11
  high King and there were kings that were not the High King that were under
• 1:50:15
  the High King. So that sort of gives you a little bit. That's
• 1:50:20
  about as much as you really need there. But like I said, earlier.
• 1:50:26
  Ireland hasn't had a king for many, many, many centuries because Ireland
• 1:50:30
  was part of England for for a very long time and they were under the
• 1:50:35
  rule of the English king, which which is why they came out of it
• 1:50:40
  as a republic not that long ago. And there was a lot of conflict
• 1:50:45
  there too with the the they were not we'll just say it wasn't entirely consensual.
• 1:50:53
  There was a there was a lot, but but yeah, So one
• 1:51:00
  thing that's relevant is Ireland's politics at the time during the time of King John
• 1:51:06
  were influenced by King John being an asshole then and then during Edward One's reign
• 1:51:15
  Irish Irish Parliament formed in twelve ninety seven. In terms of modern voting rights
• 1:51:25
  and the election standards, uh, it seems like they started out with the
• 1:51:31
  forty shilling franchise early on. That was the full standard for the whole country
• 1:51:39
  for for the county franchise and the borough franchise had the same sort of mix
• 1:51:45
  of voting qualifications as English boroughs. Because the idea of voting rights seems to
• 1:51:53
  have been introduced to Ireland by the English. One major difference was the enfranchisement
• 1:52:00
  of the Catholics, and uh, you know, here's where we get into
• 1:52:05
  when you have to deal with a a monarchy and a church state and you
• 1:52:15
  have conflicts of religious belief and everything. There were there's you know, everybody
• 1:52:21
  knows the Irish history between Protestants and Catholics is also very complicated and uh,
• 1:52:31
  very high conflict. There's there was there was very long war there. So
• 1:52:39
  again I'm not going to get into the complexities because that would that would that
• 1:52:45
  would take forever. Yeah, But but there's two two things I can cite
• 1:52:54
  here. Uh, from about sixteen ninety two to eighteen twenty there's two different
• 1:53:01
  impacts legal kind of impacts of voters. Johnston states the parliamentary franchise in the
• 1:53:09
  Irish counties was specifically withheld from Roman Catholics by statute. So there was a
• 1:53:15
  law from seventeen twenty seven to seventeen ninety three that effectively barred eighty percent of
• 1:53:24
  the male adult population in the counties of Ireland from exercising the vote, even
• 1:53:28
  if they qualified under other standards. Right, but even if they could have
• 1:53:33
  voted, they still wouldn't have been represented. If they voted for a Catholic
• 1:53:40
  to serve as a member of Parliament, because in order to take their seats,
• 1:53:45
  the members of Parliament had to take an oath abrogating the supremacy of the
• 1:53:50
  Pope, which they couldn't do, and to make a declaration that transubstantiation did
• 1:54:00
  not occur at the Last Supper, which they couldn't do. So Catholic peers
• 1:54:06
  were summoned to Parliament, but they couldn't make the declaration, and from sixteen
• 1:54:12
  ninety two until the parliament's abolition in eighteen hundred, the Irish Parliament was Protestant,
• 1:54:20
  strictly Protestant, so Catholics really had no representation, and they continue to
• 1:54:27
  be barred from sitting in the UK Parliament until eighteen twenty nine, when the
• 1:54:31
  Roman Catholic Relief Act of eighteen twenty nine made it lawful for any Roman Catholic
• 1:54:36
  to sit and vote in either house of Parliament. So that's kind of a
• 1:54:44
  sort of a sidebar there. But you know, nobody seems to talk about
• 1:54:51
  the Roman Catholic congregation, the public, public, the population right as being
• 1:55:02
  oppressed by this. I wonder what had to happen for that change. That's
• 1:55:09
  really interesting. A lot of blood, Yes, that's what sounds like again
• 1:55:16
  voting rights being won by war a lot of blood and and to be honest,
• 1:55:24
  you know, like I said that that might be their part of the
• 1:55:27
  reason why. Uh. You know, we we hear about women being oppressed
• 1:55:31
  by not having the right to vote, right, but we don't hear about
• 1:55:36
  this actual codified into law exclusion, like in an pressing Catholic blood, an
• 1:55:45
  actual bloodshed of the blood of the people that we're trying to get the right
• 1:55:50
  to vote, not the blood of the people that they were trying to get
• 1:55:54
  it from. I mean, obviously both sides blood. But you know,
• 1:55:59
  the Suffragettes didn't you know, they whined a lot and they were force fed,
• 1:56:06
  but they didn't suffer the way that men suffer in war. So yeah,
• 1:56:19
  So in terms of Scotland, I had to go to the UK's Parliament
• 1:56:27
  website. There, Parliament UK explains it. Until the early seventeenth century,
• 1:56:30
  England and Scotland were two entirely independent kingdoms. This changed dramatically in sixteen oh
• 1:56:38
  three on the death of Elizabeth I. Because the Queen had died unmarried and
• 1:56:44
  childless, the English crown passed to the next available air, her cousin James
• 1:56:51
  James the sixth of Scotland. I'm like, my every so often I'll see
• 1:57:00
  a word that has something like that, like the VI for the six and
• 1:57:05
  I'll look at it and eye will disappear, and then I'm looking at it,
• 1:57:11
  going did I see that? Was that really there? And it'll come
• 1:57:14
  back. But I'm like, that was there? I remember typing it.
• 1:57:20
  Sorry about that, guys. That's and I don't know what what does that,
• 1:57:26
  but it's there anyway, King of England or King of Scotland. England
• 1:57:30
  and Scotland now shared the same monarch under what was known as a Union of
• 1:57:34
  the Crowns, so that didn't unify the nations, but it did make them
• 1:57:43
  subject to the same monarch, so they they still there was there was still
• 1:57:50
  conflict there. Another hundred years passed before they united under the seventeen oh six
• 1:57:56
  Treaty of Union. Since Scotland had its own parliament system prior to that event,
• 1:58:00
  Johnston explains the method of election of the forty five MPs to serve in
• 1:58:05
  the House of Commons was left in Scottish Parliament to determine, and for the
• 1:58:12
  first time around. The first time around they were chosen from sitting members of
• 1:58:16
  the Scottish Parliament to avoid elections in Scotland from producing an anti union majority.
• 1:58:23
  So there was an establishment effort to protect the Establishment involved there. So that's
• 1:58:29
  one of the early instances I guess where you could say the Establishment manipulated the
• 1:58:35
  process that would have been the election process in order to protect its continued existence.
• 1:58:50
  After that, though, you saw the same forty shilling freeholder stipulation and
• 1:59:00
  an estimate estimated one tenth of one percent of the population could vote. The
• 1:59:08
  borough electorate consisted of town councils, so what you had there was, again
• 1:59:15
  people might vote for their council member, but the council members were voting for
• 1:59:18
  who would go to Parliament. Except from fourteen sixty nine the town council would
• 1:59:30
  appoint the next town council, so they quit voting for town councils and it
• 1:59:33
  was a self perpetuating system, so no voting rights. Basically in that situation.
• 1:59:43
  The original variety of qualifications did have one thing in common, and this
• 1:59:48
  is something like we're at the end I think of my notes here and this
• 1:59:53
  is something that we've seen this theme throughout right, So I'll read this last
• 1:59:57
  paragraph. They all excluded the lowest economic classes from having a degree of obligation
• 2:00:03
  to one's community and country, or sorry, from having the right to vote,
• 2:00:09
  all based on the upper classes having a degree of obligation to one's community
• 2:00:13
  and country, including answering the call for military service. So again, what
• 2:00:19
  do we hear from feminists all the time? Voting rights have never been attached
• 2:00:23
  to military service. Voting rights have always been attached prior to women's voting rights,
• 2:00:32
  they were always attached to military service. Always. Johnston also noted that
• 2:00:44
  the county and borough franchise types had something in common. Whether county or borough
• 2:00:50
  seats, all elections were conducted in public and votes were cast in public.
• 2:00:59
  By each vote, poll books were kept and patriots could see who voted for
• 2:01:05
  each candidate. So, in other words, not only was the civic obligation
• 2:01:14
  a required condition for voting rights, and voting itself was considered a civic obligation
• 2:01:18
  as well, but the voter's choices as an obligor were public information. Because
• 2:01:27
  you were acting on behalf of the people, the people had the right to
• 2:01:30
  know how you acted. It was open to the judgment of your neighbors and
• 2:01:36
  the people under you. The people around you, including the women, those
• 2:01:44
  on whose behalf the voter was casting the vote, as well as anyone else
• 2:01:48
  who might take an interest. So, for instance, the government knew who
• 2:01:55
  you voted for. Your lord knew who you voted for, the person who
• 2:02:00
  was sent to parliament knew who you voted for. Your church knew who you
• 2:02:09
  voted for. Your children. And so this is something we talked about a
• 2:02:15
  little bit in we have a discord chat that's just us as a group and
• 2:02:23
  that are involved in the production of HBr talk and Alison pointed something out,
• 2:02:30
  and this is from from a book Religious Poverty and the Profit Economy in medieval
• 2:02:40
  Europe, she pointed out the keystone of feudal government was the personal agreement between
• 2:02:45
  lord and vassal to exchange protection for advice and military support. By the twelfth
• 2:02:51
  century, this personal agreement began to be replaced by a money payment, which
• 2:02:58
  was again that franchise. The old obligation of an annual forty day period of
• 2:03:04
  military service was not practical in new jurisdictions that embraced distances of one hundred miles,
• 2:03:11
  but a knight could now fulfill his military obligation to the king by paying
• 2:03:16
  scottage shield money, and his lord could hire mercenaries when and where and for
• 2:03:25
  as long as he wanted. So even when the vote started moving away from
• 2:03:31
  you must be involved in military service. To have voting rights, you essentially
• 2:03:39
  had to fund military service. So knights would do military service in exchange for
• 2:03:45
  influence, and eventually that evolved in the concept of taxation. So even taxation
• 2:03:54
  evolved out of that government protection racket. And we were talking about a practice
• 2:04:03
  that Allison had seen reference to called looking on during the time that the vote
• 2:04:10
  was public. She couldn't find the reference where she had seen it before,
• 2:04:15
  while I found two. One of them is online. It's from I want
• 2:04:26
  to say, that's Virginia Tech, and let me see if I can open
• 2:04:30
  that from our chat. But essentially it talked about it being done in the
• 2:04:39
  US, the practice of looking on and let me get to have to scroll
• 2:04:48
  up because I had forgotten about there being stuff at the bottom here. But
• 2:04:53
  and then the other one is in a in a book and the relevant passages.
• 2:05:00
  I have screenshots of those that I think I'm just gonna open the screenshots
• 2:05:03
  because it'll be easier to read. And the other screenshot is the references.
• 2:05:14
  But oops, I didn't have that be that big. So this link Voting
• 2:05:25
  Viva Voice, Unlocking the social logic of past politics points out that for most
• 2:05:33
  of America's history, voting was a noisy, public event, well attended,
• 2:05:41
  no private voting booths, Like when we think of going into vote, like
• 2:05:45
  if I go into vote, Well, when I went in to vote in
• 2:05:48
  the primary, we you know, you go in and they'll have an area
• 2:05:56
  with booths, and they have an area where you prove you are who you
• 2:06:00
  say you are. And once you've proved you are who you say you are,
• 2:06:03
  you go to this booth with your your electronic card or your ticket and
• 2:06:10
  I do the paper ballot. So I take my paper ballot over there and
• 2:06:15
  insert it into the machine, and I mark my votes where only I can
• 2:06:20
  see the screen, and there's there's a it used to be you would go
• 2:06:26
  in and you would draw a curtain and you would punch out the chads right
• 2:06:30
  that. Yeah, but it's got blinders on either side of the screen,
• 2:06:36
  so nobody can see it but the person standing directly in front of the screen.
• 2:06:41
  And then when I'm done, the voting card doesn't look like anything.
• 2:06:47
  It's just got you know, marks on it. It doesn't have this is
• 2:06:54
  the person's name, and you marked next to the person's name and so on.
• 2:06:58
  If you just look at the card, you can't tell who voted or
• 2:07:00
  who they voted for. And you go feed it into another machine and it
• 2:07:03
  counts it. So it's completely private, even though it's done communally. So
• 2:07:12
  we're all in there doing this. None of the other people in there can
• 2:07:15
  see who I voted for or what I voted for. But historically, voters
• 2:07:23
  stood in line, came forward from the crowd to vote. They often went
• 2:07:27
  up on a stage or a platform and were asked, you know, where
• 2:07:35
  they stood, and they stood in line, and they either voted by holding
• 2:07:44
  up a ticket, and you could tell who they were voting for based on
• 2:07:48
  the color of the ticket. And in other states they would call out the
• 2:07:58
  name of the candidates that they wanted for the office being contested. So the
• 2:08:03
  clerks would then enter their choices in a pull book, so they either had
• 2:08:07
  to speak it or show it and everybody could see it and everybody could hear
• 2:08:15
  it. When you steal from men on behalf of what we call democracy.
• 2:08:24
  You can call it taxation, but it's still theft. Calling it a different
• 2:08:30
  name doesn't make it a different thing, just like saying that a dog's tail
• 2:08:35
  is a fifth leg doesn't mean a dog is a five legged animal. Things
• 2:08:39
  are still what they are, even if you call them a different thing.
• 2:08:43
  And if you if you sacrifice men's lives for the sake of what you call
• 2:08:52
  democracy or military subscription, it's still what would the word be, It'd be
• 2:09:01
  murder, wouldn't it It is? It is. It is still murder,
• 2:09:07
  and it has been not just for the last century or so, but for
• 2:09:11
  the last millennium or so, and and the rest, because it's been going
• 2:09:16
  on since ancient times. And you can refer to democracy as a wolf and
• 2:09:26
  three sheep or whatever it is, a lion and a tiger and a sheep
• 2:09:31
  deciding what's for breakfast. You can do. You can do that whole metaphor.
• 2:09:39
  But then you consider all of the shrews. Shall we call them shrews
• 2:09:43
  as in the Taming of the Shoe, I think we should call them shrews,
• 2:09:46
  the bunch of shrews living underneath the cage with with with with no worry
• 2:09:52
  of being eaten by anyone ever. And you can totally ignore those shrews.
• 2:09:58
  When you create this meta to fall and you create whatever words that we put
• 2:10:05
  behind this metaphor, the point is you can say that most of them had
• 2:10:11
  no influence over who gets eaten for breakfast. But as long as they're all
• 2:10:16
  underneath the fucking floor where there's no chance of them ever getting eaten, then
• 2:10:24
  then it's it's kind of a moot point, especially at the point at which
• 2:10:28
  the shrews get to decide who gets eaten for breakfast. Yeah, that point,
• 2:10:35
  it doesn't matter if it's the lion or the tiger, or the sheep
• 2:10:39
  or who else, because the shrews aren't going to get eaten. We have
• 2:10:43
  a system in place whereby all the shrews in the world can exist and nobody
• 2:10:50
  ever eats them, which is weird for a shrew. Yep, that's why
• 2:10:56
  we need to bring in the elves. But oh, that's not a good
• 2:11:03
  reference. I will I will point out the big thing that this establishes in
• 2:11:09
  terms of looking on and and it's this image says pretty much the same thing
• 2:11:16
  in terms of UK voting. If the women of a community didn't like how
• 2:11:22
  you voted, they didn't just sit around and be like, gosh, that
• 2:11:26
  guy voted in a way I didn't like. Women have always been vocal.
• 2:11:30
  They didn't keep their mouths shut. They would yell, they would they would
• 2:11:33
  get violent. We've demonstrated a history of female violence through various historical references that
• 2:11:46
  we have made during various episodes of this show. And I mean, I
• 2:11:52
  even have a whole video on the Honey Badger radio channel that gives you an
• 2:11:58
  hour long explanation the evolution of domestic violence law and how it both acknowledged and
• 2:12:07
  excluded government response to domestic violence committed by wives. So there is that right,
• 2:12:16
  And you know Allison pointed out in our chat, like, imagine if
• 2:12:22
  this style of election was done today. So you have, instead of going
• 2:12:28
  into that secret voting booth and using your secret ballot to cast votes that nobody
• 2:12:37
  will know you were the one that cast those votes, throw that out in
• 2:12:45
  the trash, and instead, when you go in to vote for president in
• 2:12:50
  the United States and say twenty sixteen, and then again in twenty twenty and
• 2:12:56
  now this year, you have to want up on a stage in front of
• 2:13:01
  all of the people in your local neighborhood and your local community, and they're
• 2:13:07
  going to ask you who you vote for, and either they're going to give
• 2:13:11
  you a red ticket and a blue ticket, and you decide, you know,
• 2:13:15
  or in a green ticket and whatever color we want, maybe a pink
• 2:13:18
  ticket, and you put the ticket in the ballot box at the clear ballot
• 2:13:24
  box, the glass ballot box that everybody can see what color ticket you put
• 2:13:28
  in there, so they know if you voted for Trump or for somebody else,
• 2:13:35
  right, And or they ask you point blank what's the name of the
• 2:13:41
  person you vote for, and you have to say the name, and all
• 2:13:46
  of the people in the community can then confront you afterward because you have to
• 2:13:52
  walk back down into that crowd when you're done. How that would change the
• 2:13:56
  election process? So and the other reference is a book on Victorian political culture.
• 2:14:13
  There is more to the name of its Victorian political culture, poverty or
• 2:14:18
  something along those lines. It was more than just that as the title.
• 2:14:24
  But that's what it says. It's the top of the page, and it's
• 2:14:28
  what it shows in the link, and doesn't show the whole name of the
• 2:14:31
  book. Voting entailed the manly discharging of a communal responsibility in the presence of
• 2:14:41
  pulling clerks, So it was done in public because the voter was voting as
• 2:14:48
  a form of taking responsibility for the community, and his voting presence was based
• 2:14:58
  on his obligation to the community. Votes were then recorded in pull books available
• 2:15:03
  in theory to scrutiny. So again, you know, let's say a local
• 2:15:11
  minister, bishop cardinal pope, the Pope decided that they wanted to check and
• 2:15:18
  see who all voted for the opposition to the the positions of the church and
• 2:15:26
  maybe target you for exclusion or punishment, because the church could do that historically,
• 2:15:35
  couldn't do it today, but historically, you know, there there was
• 2:15:39
  quite a bit of punishment handed down by the church. They could look and
• 2:15:45
  see and you were your name would be in there, and who you voted
• 2:15:48
  for would be in there. So the public character of these election rituals affirmed
• 2:15:54
  the communal rather than private nature of the franchise and the voting process. Women.
• 2:15:58
  When we we got our right to vote, the women who demanded that
• 2:16:03
  right to vote did not demand it as a form of social obligation a service
• 2:16:11
  to their community. They demanded it as an individual right, a privilege.
• 2:16:22
  Very different. The protocols of canvassing respected the status as a candidate and the
• 2:16:28
  voter. So when they ran for election, they were not advertising, you
• 2:16:37
  know, to the individual, here's what you want. I'm giving you what
• 2:16:41
  you want. It was more like advertising, you know, choose the mothers,
• 2:16:46
  choose Jeff, and slogans like that, I will do these things for
• 2:16:52
  the people that you're responsible for. I will help your community in these ways,
• 2:16:56
  I will be I will take responsibility for your community in these ways.
• 2:17:05
  The active participation of non electors in the rituals of the nomination and the hustings
• 2:17:11
  referred to in contemporary parlace as looking on involved women as well as unfranchised males.
• 2:17:22
  And then it goes on to say in Whitehaven eighteen thirty two, for
• 2:17:28
  example, female Tory supporters tore down the flag of their Whig opponents and assaulted
• 2:17:33
  for apprentice carpenters. In electoral politics of Carlisle, they're in the eighteen thirties
• 2:17:39
  and eighteen forties, the Female Radical Association played an important part in Chartist campaigns.
• 2:17:45
  It was claimed that non electors won the eighteen fifty two election in Stoke
• 2:17:50
  on Trent for the Whig Edward Levinson Grower, brother of Lord Granville, by
• 2:17:58
  threatening politicians and sho keepers with the withdrawal of their custom will boycott you,
• 2:18:03
  leading to the defeat of the incumbent Conservative MP, William Copeland. So women
• 2:18:09
  participated even before they were obligated or given the right to participate in the franchise.
• 2:18:18
  Women influenced the outcomes of elections, and they had a great deal of
• 2:18:20
  power. They were the ones that decided how the household spending happened, right.
• 2:18:26
  They were the ones who would boycott if they didn't get what they want,
• 2:18:28
  and they could engage in violence. And guess who didn't go to jail
• 2:18:33
  for that women? But you know, those voting processes were still written in
• 2:18:46
  men's blood. So there you have it. That's as far as I wanted
• 2:18:52
  to talk on it today. Do you guys have anything else that you want
• 2:18:58
  to add in? We got through the article. We're not going to do
• 2:19:01
  it next week as well, aren't we. Well we're there won't be this
• 2:19:03
  same article. But and it's I guess it's not really an article so much
• 2:19:07
  as, like I said, a show notes. I will have more notes.
• 2:19:11
  We'll talk a little bit about some more changes. Next week might be
• 2:19:13
  a much shorter show because there wasn't from what I saw there wasn't a lot
• 2:19:18
  that changed, but there are some things that happen, and we do need
• 2:19:22
  to get to where voting rights were extended to men on other basis besides land
• 2:19:31
  ownership and stuff. But and how different it was when the common man got
• 2:19:39
  his voting rights versus women getting theirs. But that's all. And if it
• 2:19:46
  takes me too long to research it, I might put in another article and
• 2:19:50
  discuss that article with with everybody next week while I'm still doing the work.
• 2:19:56
  But we will have more to discussion about suffrage before we move on to anything
• 2:20:03
  else, unless, like I said, I don't get the homework done in
• 2:20:09
  time. I've got nothing to complain about really, And in most weeks we
• 2:20:13
  have some bullshit feminist articles. Yeah, this week we just we just had
• 2:20:20
  some sensible notes to get through. So yeah, give it, give us
• 2:20:24
  some more sensible notes next week. I will do my best. Like the
• 2:20:30
  rough thing. Yeah, if I get into the history of banking, Jane,
• 2:20:33
  We're gonna have hello discussion there. But especially when we start getting into
• 2:20:39
  the twentieth century and that there's a scam the banks have been running since the
• 2:20:43
  civil rights era that everybody really needs to know about. I might have to
• 2:20:46
  do that. But in any case that that'll be it. Then for the
• 2:20:54
  main body of the episode, let's get into let's see we have at least
• 2:21:00
  one more super chow. The one good man gave us five dollars and said,
• 2:21:05
  is anyone else up for having another go at strange women lying in ponds
• 2:21:07
  distributing swords. You give me a sword. I'm not getting into a pond
• 2:21:13
  and giving it away. I'm keeping that. That's that's mind. Some watery
• 2:21:18
  distributing swords is no. Oh my gosh. Yeah, let's see what else
• 2:21:26
  we have here? That was our super chow? Did we have another super
• 2:21:31
  chat? No? All right, so no more super chatsm do you do?
• 2:21:39
  And I don't see any rumble rants that were paid? So and then
• 2:21:52
  oh so we did have Yeah the change. Betty Adams added some things about
• 2:22:01
  Catholics holding power, said the change allowing Catholics to hold power was mostly due
• 2:22:09
  to the fading political power of Rome. The separation of church and state was
• 2:22:15
  a growing idea in nineteenth century England. If there is little or no chance
• 2:22:20
  of the government forcing you to do religion, who cares? What is the
• 2:22:24
  religion of the person's in power? So That is an interesting thing. They
• 2:22:28
  really didn't stop oppressing Catholics by withholding voting rights from them because it was wrong
• 2:22:41
  to oppress them. It was because they had their church had lost power.
• 2:22:46
  And that is true. And at some point during the discussion, I'm probably
• 2:22:50
  going to have to get into all of that too, which means I'm going
• 2:22:54
  to have to explain the change from the church being the primary source of economic
• 2:23:07
  care for the poor to the state being the primary source of economic care for
• 2:23:13
  the poor, because that, combined with more poor voting rights and more female
• 2:23:20
  voting rights, is what led to you know, previously, the arrangement of
• 2:23:26
  taxation between national government and the taxpayer was you agree to be ready to participate
• 2:23:39
  in some military service for me, and to pay me some tax money,
• 2:23:46
  some shield money so that I can fund other military fulfillment if I'm too far
• 2:23:52
  away from you, and do some other housekeeping in the country, like making
• 2:23:58
  sure that they're travelable, travelable roads, traversible roads so that you can send
• 2:24:05
  representatives to the Great Council and so on. And I will fulfill my obligations
• 2:24:11
  to you on the basis of that agreement by making sure that the country is
• 2:24:16
  defended and law and order is kept and we have roads. And that agreement
• 2:24:22
  was a consensual agreement between the king's vassals, the lords and barons and the
• 2:24:30
  king, or the lord and baron's vassals and the lord and baron, and
• 2:24:35
  and the idea of having a pope and admirals and bishops is highly analogous to
• 2:24:41
  the idea of having a king and barons and one liot. And I'm biden
• 2:24:46
  with that. Oh yeah, because because they don't have all that much power
• 2:24:52
  over us. They only have any power over us if we believe in the
• 2:24:56
  same doctrine as they do. And as long as they can't enforce that doctor
• 2:25:00
  overus, not not by force, but just by ideological then I'm fine with
• 2:25:09
  that because I don't have to do shit about the collision of your ideology because
• 2:25:16
  about it. It's a good place to start, if nothing else. Yeah,
• 2:25:20
  it is, so it's interesting. Just that structure is an interesting structure.
• 2:25:24
  But yeah, initially that the whole idea of taxation's taxation and uh civic
• 2:25:33
  obligation, those were essentially agreements made between the king and his vassals, where
• 2:25:43
  today your neighbors can vote for you to face siblic civic obligation and taxation that
• 2:25:50
  you didn't agree to. Uh, and you're not getting anything in return for
• 2:25:56
  it. So that's part of what we're going and end up having to cover
• 2:26:01
  more of like next next episode, next episode on the vote. You know,
• 2:26:07
  how did we get from the point where those concepts were intrinsically interwoven That
• 2:26:18
  you didn't have taxation and military obligation without a service agreement with your monarch,
• 2:26:26
  your your your national government, that your national government provided things that it was
• 2:26:33
  in your interest to support. Where now you do you do have those state
• 2:26:41
  so same obligations as a man, but you don't necessarily have an interest in
• 2:26:48
  most of what your national government is doing, like you could do without most
• 2:26:52
  of what your national government does, and in fact, quite a bit of
• 2:26:54
  it is to your detriment. So this this could be maybe partly why the
• 2:27:07
  three letter agencies in the federal government of the United States do not like people
• 2:27:11
  like me, just saying. But in any case, so that's that's it.
• 2:27:18
  That's all of our super chats, super chows, and uh, thanks
• 2:27:24
  Betty for those comments on the church, because that does that is a very
• 2:27:28
  salient point there. It's rather important to note that actually that they weren't just
• 2:27:35
  writing or wrong. They they they weren't threatened anymore by the idea of the
• 2:27:41
  church being imposed because the church didn't have that level of power anymore. And
• 2:27:46
  I do need to talk about that a little further the next time, and
• 2:27:52
  and talk about it in conjunction with that transfer of obligation as well, because
• 2:28:00
  that that's something that fundamentally changed the relationship between government the people, voting and
• 2:28:11
  taxation. So with that, thanks everybody for listening. This probably has been
• 2:28:18
  it may have been an exciting episode for somebody's probably dry for a lot of
• 2:28:20
  people. Hopefully everybody, though, did get the main point that I wanted
• 2:28:26
  to get across of how voting from the beginning, not just in times of
• 2:28:31
  modern you know, drafting and going to war with other countries, but from
• 2:28:35
  the beginning voting was actually an involved outreach of male obligation. And thanks to
• 2:28:48
  everybody who works in the background to make HBO talk happens. I would remind
• 2:28:58
  you, first of all, rule Britannia. Second of all, Britannia rules
• 2:29:03
  the waves. Third of all, Britons never never, never will be slaves.
• 2:29:07
  There we go a good idol. No one