Latest / Speaking of Meaning / AI, Trust & Meaningful Work: How Leaders Can Build Better Workplaces | Alejandra Rojas

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AI, Trust & Meaningful Work: How Leaders Can Build Better Workplaces | Alejandra Rojas · Speaking of Meaning

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: build deeper relationships and create impact that matters.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ibrahim.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is about better communication,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: greater impact at work, in your home and in the world out there.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I am Ibrahim and today I'm joined by Alejandra Rojas.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra has a PhD in Business Development and Technology.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: She is a researcher and educator working at the intersection of meaningful work,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: organizational change and technology.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra, welcome to the show.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ibrahim, for the invitation.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super happy to be here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to have you here, Alejandra.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to talk about some interesting stuff today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me exactly what is it that you do?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for the last five years or so,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have been researching about the job transformation that AI and robotics bring.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my story, if I can tell you a bit about it, started about nine years ago.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was part of the corporate world.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was working in marketing in a large company and one day I received one
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: of those life-changing emails.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: The company was announcing layoffs and of course I was super stressed
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: but also relieved because thanks to that I realized that I have been doing tasks
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: at work that were meaningless and empty in a way because I was missing a sense
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: of purpose and This small or big career crisis made me change my past
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: and I started applying to different master's programs and I ended up here
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: in Denmark, where I live now, studying sustainable tourism.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: That was my master's degree.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then with time came the master thesis and I realized
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: that I was enjoying much more the whole research process of reading,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: finding new ideas and thinking about possible solutions than my part-time job back
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: then as a marketing specialist.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So from that moment I realized that I wanted to become a researcher and I continued
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: with a PhD and since Since then,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've been researching about that topic because my master's was in tourism,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: but I was doing my thesis about the automation of hospitality tasks with robotics
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: and AI.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when I saw that it was 2019 back then and the AI hype was just starting
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: with machine learning.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Gen AI was not even a thing.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember that back then I was reading about AI and I knew
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: that something important was going to happen and that this will affect work
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: in general, not only hospitality or service, but everyone would be affected.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I've been studying the effects of technologies on humans.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the human side of technology.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting story.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: What did you find?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: In my PhD,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I found that technologies have a paradoxical effect on meaningful work,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: on how we feel about the significance and the purpose that our job has.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the beginning I was expecting to see
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: that technologies will be either good or bad for humans at work,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: but it's paradoxical because they can make us lose some of the tasks
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: that we are happy about,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: that we enjoy,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: that gives us fulfillment,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: but at the same time they can Create new opportunities like robotics
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: and AI can give us capabilities we didn't have before.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this paradoxical effect where you have positives and negatives leaves a lot
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: of responsibility to organizations and how they deploy these technologies.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra, you mentioned something interesting.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: You said the impact on meaningful work.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: let's talk about what meaningful work is,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I think that in general,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: when you hear meaningful work,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: you think about jobs that are meaningful objectively,
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  SPEAKER_01: for example, being a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: But when we talk about meaningful work in this podcast,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: we refer to the experience of feeling that your job is significant and worth doing.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a human experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's individual.
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  SPEAKER_01: What's meaningful to you will not be meaningful to me, maybe.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about A subjective experience in a way,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's also co-created by the conditions of your environment.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, humans are meaning-making creatures.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, when we experience things and create our own perspectives,
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  SPEAKER_01: we develop our values,
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  SPEAKER_01: principles, sense of purpose, and then we go to our workplace.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we start understanding if we can act on this purpose in this specific workplace.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you can have your own values and ideas,
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  SPEAKER_01: but if you go to work and you cannot do something about it,
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: then you won't experience meaningful work.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why in my research I found that meaningful work is co-created by
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: the conditions of your environment and the values you bring in.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's environment plus your values.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I was saying that the organizations have a lot of responsibility
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: on how the employees experience meaningful work.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not only about self-awareness of what you think is your purpose, your values.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's also about how you can act on them and how your leader supports you,
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  SPEAKER_01: how your team helps you thrive at work.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is a very human perspective because we are not machines,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: we are Human beings, we create meaning.
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  SPEAKER_01: We are always in a sense making process of understanding our reality.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we cannot just go to work and expect to be fulfilled just by getting
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: a good salary.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think many people have shared,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can think of actors right now that they have shared that even if you have a lot
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: of money,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: You may not be fulfilled entirely
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: because you're always needing something more transcendental.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: So what I hear you say, Alexandra, is that it's the environment, so it's not enough to have...
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: To do something that you are in alignment with your values,
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  SPEAKER_00: because if the environment is not supporting you,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: then you're not going to find meaningful work or find meaning in what you do.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And also the opposite is true.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps you might have a supportive environment,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: good leadership, great colleagues, psychological safety, trust, belonging.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if what you're doing is not in alignment with your values,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: then you're not going to find meaning.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is that an accurate understanding?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think what's important here is that we,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: in this topic of meaningful work, we cannot generalize.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot say, okay,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: our organization has very relevant mission and vision
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: and everyone should be connected to it and feel motivated.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: In this way, we need to Personalize meaningful work in a way, I think.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is a job of leaders.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Leadership should be genuinely
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: interested in getting to know their team,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: understanding what's meaningful to each of them.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because in meaningful work research,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: we can see in the literature that There are many different sources
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: for meaningful work.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: autonomy,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: feeling that you can decide, you have
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: the freedom to decide how you do things.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this creates a feeling of fulfillment.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Other sources could be connections, the relationships you build at work.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Other source is contributions, seeing that your job has an impact.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what else?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Recognition.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: That you have this sense that your effort is seen and that it matters.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So these are very specific things that come in moments, in specific moments.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that your whole day will look super meaningful.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: In the theory of meaningful work,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are some researchers that said that meaningful work is so complex
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  SPEAKER_01: because you cannot find it in a longer time span.
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  SPEAKER_01: It comes in little moments when you feel like, oh, this makes me feel good.
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  SPEAKER_01: This makes me feel fulfilled.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why I do the job.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: For example, in my research, I was...
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Working in the context of healthcare.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I spent time with nurses and doctors trying
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: to understand how these technologies affect the meaningfulness of their job.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see that their job, specifically for nurses, is super demanding.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: They do things that you would think, wow, why do they do it?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why would they put themselves in the position where They need to,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: for example, carry patients from the wheelchair to the bed.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Many have back pain from it or, yeah,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: just situations that are,
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  SPEAKER_01: in general,
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  SPEAKER_01: that could be even disgusting for some people,
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  SPEAKER_01: but for them,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: it allows them to connect,
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  SPEAKER_01: to have some,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: physical touch with patients and This very,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: very small moment when they carry the patient to the bed,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's super relevant for them.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they have back pain from it, they don't want to let that go.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the whole day, I remember the interviews with them.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was shocked because they were saying that my whole day, my entire day is...
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So exhausting and sometimes I am a bit miserable,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that moment when the patient smiles back at me and tells something like,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: thank you,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful,
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  SPEAKER_01: or when you carry them and you feel a little hug,
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  SPEAKER_01: those moments are what keep them doing these jobs.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: meaningful work Is the compound of small moments that by the end of the day or
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: the month or the year you think it was worth it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is important for people to feel more relaxed when thinking
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: about meaningful work because you may think, wow, my job is not meaningful at all.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't feel this sense of fulfillment.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's exhausting and I don't like it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that if you're mindful about how you feel moment by moment through
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: the day,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: you can find these small moments when someone says thank you,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they smile back at you,
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  SPEAKER_01: or even when you have lunch with your colleagues and you feel this sense
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: of community.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: These are the small things we need to be...
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Considering to understand how our job can add up to a more meaningful life.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: How our job can add up to a meaningful life.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's the main reason,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: or not reason,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: but that's what I feel most excited about when talking about meaningful work.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: That...
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: We spend most of our waking hours at work or yeah,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: since we are adults, we usually have to work most of our waking hours.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: At some point we will retire or not.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe our generation will not be able to do that so soon.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: we will spend most of our time at work and then When we look back in time,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: work has been a very relevant part of our life.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we, in my opinion,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: we need to find something that is meaningful at work so we can build
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: a more meaningful life and everyone deserves to have a meaningful life.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra, you're not saying you should, you have to be happy at work.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're not saying follow your passion, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I'm saying exactly.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to aim for full happiness and full sense of fulfillment because
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: that is not realistic.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: We are humans.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: We will only find contrasts.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Polarization,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: paradoxes,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: nothing is black or white and that's why I love talking about paradoxes
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: because you will always have two concepts,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: two ideas,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: two emotions that are opposite but they are part of the whole and you cannot get rid
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: of the one that you don't like.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way At work,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: we will always have moments of fulfillment and moments when we think,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I didn't have to work at all.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: But in the end,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: if we must work,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: let's at least find something that feels meaningful and be aware of it.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like this is a lot about self-awareness.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because even if you have a good leader who would approach you and tell you,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do your experience work?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: How can I help you to feel this is something that is meaningful to you
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: and helps you have a sense of purpose?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even if your leader is doing that, if you don't know yourself, then who can help you?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this starts with you as an individual.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you said in the beginning, you said,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be in alignment with your values.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess know your values.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I find it interesting as well,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: because you're not saying follow your passion because this is
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: an advice we often hear.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, follow your passion, do what you love.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: But what if...
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I create something meaningful,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not in the arena that perhaps I'm very passionate about,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: but I feel that it gives my life a meaning.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But perhaps if I had to choose to do what I'm passionate about,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: then maybe it would be a different kind of work.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's a bit tricky to talk about following your passion at work
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: because it's not always possible.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot always create a job opportunity for you where you can follow your passion
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: and Maybe that's why we need to reframe what following your passion means
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: because maybe if we start looking at it as like in a broader perspective
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: where you don't think about a passion in terms of tasks or types of jobs,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: then it would be easier because,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: if I think about my passion as in helping people
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can find many different types of jobs where you can help people
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: in different ways.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if you only think about your passion as,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: painting, then you have a very, very specific thing that maybe you won't succeed at.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just make yourself, your life even harder.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I believe that
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Self-reflection should also consider this,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: that you should think in an abstract way where you find yourself in
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: an easier position.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Also because with the job transformation that we will experience with AI
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: and robotics, jobs will change.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: The job titles that we know now may change or the tasks within the usual jobs
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: that have been existing for years will change.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we also, in my opinion, need to start thinking out of the box because, yeah, well,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say that AI won't eliminate jobs as many people think.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like that.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: AI will eliminate tasks and jobs are composed of different tasks.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to think about,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: in a task-based way, what is meaningful to you?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Which tasks that you do every day are the least fulfilling and the most fulfilling?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And in that sense,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: you can start understanding where else you can find the same tasks or similar ones
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: that will give you a sense of purpose.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, for example, I can come back to example of Helping people.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Which tasks allow you to help people and where can you find them?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: In other industries or sectors, even hobbies.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: What about relationships, Alejandra?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of role do they play in whether work feels meaningful?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say I'm enjoying my work.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I like the tasks.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I find them meaningful.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I kind of dislike my colleagues or I'm not getting along with them.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: as I said before,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's subjective because for some people, relationships will be quite relevant.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: For other people,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: they don't really care about it as long as they have other things like autonomy,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: contributions.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's subjective,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: but it's also true that Relationships help you
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: connect to something bigger,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: be part of a community, work as a team.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have the right elements in your team to build,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's super important to have vulnerability in your relationships at work.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: May sound like a lot because we usually think of vulnerability
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: in romantic relationships,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: but when studying Meaningful Work,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I realized that we need to be vulnerable and open up about ourselves and
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: With our team,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: with our leaders, because that's the only way we can connect as humans.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that we will start seeing more often
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: because now we have these technologies, AI and robotics at work.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And these technologies will help us see the differences between something artificial
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: and something human.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when you see The characteristics of a human being,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: you need to be open to be vulnerable and think,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is a human being who has worries, concerns, and needs.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So how can we help everyone to work properly?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: the most important thing we don't have to forget is to improve the organization and
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: the results,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: the revenue, profit, sales,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: like all the Business aspects will always be relevant as long as we live
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: in this system,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: in
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: capitalism and
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: with this economy as it is,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: we will always have to focus on performance, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think performance and business results will be a natural result of Focusing
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: on humans and what they need and how they can thrive.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they can thrive, if they can find meaning, they'll produce better results as well.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of, they're kind of intertwined.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I wouldn't say let's focus first on one thing or the other.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're As you say, there's an intersection where they are both relevant.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think vulnerability is key to build trust at work.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically about trust.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: As well.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Human connections, vulnerability, trust.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we talk about meaningful work,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: we need to talk about So let's say I'm someone who would find meaning at work
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: when I can
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: find a purpose in being recognized on what I do.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when I go and work with people who recognize me and I can let them know
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: that this is fulfilling for me, It's a relationship of trust.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be comfortable to open up, know your people and
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is called interpersonal trust.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying be close friends with your team,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: but at least you have to let your
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: personality or your wishes and your needs
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: to be communicated.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: This
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: is interpersonal trust, but it's also important to talk about institutional trust.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: You need to trust That the organization has a mission that is real,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: because I think in many cases it feels like the mission and vision were just made
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: to put them on the website, but no one cares about in the day-to-day activities.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And this is very relevant, I think.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Especially in younger generations,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like they are not buying Like any story,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: they have to see it's true,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: they have to see actions and this way they can trust the organization.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because if the organization is saying something on their website and then
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: the daily activities are completely the opposite,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: then how can you trust your organization?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why leaders Need to create spaces where people can participate
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: in building and creating for that vision, that purpose.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise, how can you do it?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you just focus on the,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: mundane and tedious tasks and you don't feel you're working for something bigger,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Then that's why many people start losing motivation.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: They don't take risks.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: They don't commit.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where trust is broken.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know in your experience what you've seen in companies,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: but I feel that many people are hired and they've been told that
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: the company is doing this and that,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: but then with time people realize that it's not about the big mission,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's just about selling more things or convincing more people about doing this or
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I've heard so many of my friends saying that they want
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: to do something more meaningful.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's also a generational thing.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think millennials are,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: we are a bit confused about how life works and how,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: where do you get your fulfillment from and career transitions are happening
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: and people are trying to be entrepreneurs and build something more significant.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a big reason is because organizations are just forgetting
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: about this human side of work.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I share your experience.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of organizations, they just have these big fancy words on their websites.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: One example is, for instance, diversity and belonging.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody...
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Has these fancy big words on their websites,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: but then when you take a look at their work,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: leadership,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: their commitment,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: you see that they're actually,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: they don't really It's not that they don't care, they're just not committed to it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're saying something because it is what you're supposed to say
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: or what you're supposed to put on your website.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So diversity, inclusion, belonging is something everybody talks about.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you take a look at their leadership teams on every level,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of organizations,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: they lack diversity, they lack belonging, and even trust as well.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the younger generations, they're more interested in why.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing this?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just the bottom line, but
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: why should we head this direction?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it puts a lot of pressure on leadership as well.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can't tell people what to do.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to also explain the why, the reason behind it as well.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, I agree.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: We need to understand the why and not only to understand it, but to see it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because one thing is to make sense of it and the other thing is to feel
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: that you're contributing to that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because...
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that even if you're in a company who's doing on-the-side projects
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: with corporate social responsibility and,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, a foundation that helps people, that's kind of an external happening.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something you're contributing yourself.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's relevant to feel that you're connected to that purpose by acting on it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that leads me to also a topic that I love in this context is agency.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because in my research I was seeing my case with a sociology theory that I love
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: and it's called Structuration Theory.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And this theory helps us understand that humans have agency to act and change
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: the world as it is.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, they are conditioned by the structures of the world they live in.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And these conditions will enable or constrain them to do things.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So... Give me an example.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in my research I was looking at how the healthcare staff were interacting
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: with robotics and I was trying to see how the robots affect the meaningfulness
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: of their job.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I told you,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: the effect was paradoxical because these robots were creating conditions
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: so they could Free uptime and have more connections with patients
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: and family members.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And these technologies allowed them to have remote consultations in rural areas, for example.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So this created a lot of meaning for them at work.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, they were losing physical touch, human connection.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: They were like missing these moments of Seeing the patient,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: hugging them, giving them a handshake.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: what I was trying to figure out with my research is that, okay,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: we have this paradoxical effect where we have,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: let's say, like pros and cons of the technology for meaningful work.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a way to increase the positive things and reduce the negative ones is Is
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: to focus on the agency of healthcare staff.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if you allow healthcare staff to act and do something about it,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: then they will be able to navigate the negative aspects.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: if you allow them to use the technologies in unintended ways,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: then they can increase the meaningfulness of their job.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: these robots,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have seen them, but they are like a robotic body with a screen.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So as a clinician,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: as a doctor,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: you can connect on your laptop from home and then the robot is located in
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: the hospital.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So to check on patients or have,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: the night round at the hospital,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: They can easily connect,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: go around,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: maybe talk with the doctor who's there and visit each patient in the room.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this technology was the one that I was studying.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it was good for them.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: They could have more time at home.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, connect with patients in the remote located hospitals.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, they didn't want to use these technologies.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like deeply, they were not convinced about it
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: because they were saying that
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe it's going to be detrimental for the connections we can build with patients.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or what if I make a mistake?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or what if this or that?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what I saw is that when you allow them to act and use their agency,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: they can start proposing new ideas.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: They can innovate.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: New ways of using these robots,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: adding new features,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: proposing unintended uses,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: because it's super interesting how
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: the technology providers will always design these technologies with assumptions.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: They would assume that the clinicians will find Some things useful,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: meaningful, but in practice, they don't.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So here,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: this is why it's important that healthcare staff can do what they want with
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: the technology in a way that they exercise their agency and they have a say
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: in how technology is created and deployed.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sadly, you don't see that very often.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Very often is usually the case that the tech providers are developing and testing
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: with assumptions or just internal tests.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: What could happen in a hospital?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: What could happen in a nursing home?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: But there are just a few cases where they truly create a
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: relationship
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: with their direct users so they can put themselves in their shoes and say,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: okay, we will develop this technology in a way that is actually relevant for people.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: In a healthcare setting.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this is an example of the theory I was talking about of structuration,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: how agency creates structures in society and these structures allow
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: or constrain people to act.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because here it's also important to understand that Everyone has a responsibility
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: in this sense because it's not only about tech providers including healthcare staff
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: in the innovation process.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's also about healthcare organizations creating the conditions,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: the structure that healthcare staff need to be able to innovate,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: to have the space where healthcare managers have the The trust on their employees
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: and they allow them to be vulnerable and say,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: this robot is making me feel that I'm losing touch with patients so I want to use it
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: in a different way.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to use it for the usual consultations.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I only want to use it to explain a few exercises.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: For example, a physiotherapist.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking with a lot of physiotherapists and they were saying,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: for us it's very relevant to touch patients.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: If a patient comes with a pain in the shoulder, then they want to be touched.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to have a remote consultation where you only tell them,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: oh, I think you should do this movement or do this type of therapy.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's...
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that they need to be able to act on.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: They need to be vulnerable to say, let's do it differently because this is not working for me.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this is when leaders can create a safe space to understand what's meaningful
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: to you and how technology is affecting you and what conditions you need.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: From us as an organization,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: because in this case of healthcare,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: I saw that is maybe a bit obvious,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: but you need to create conditions like having the proper infrastructure at
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: the hospital,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: good wifi,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: good spaces so the robot can move around and no one has to go and take it manually
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: because it got stuck.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: They need to have proper training,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: which is also responsibility of the leaders,
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the healthcare context,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: because they have, and then again, trust is important.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: They have to maintain the trust that patients have on them.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: If the robot is malfunctioning, then patients will be skeptical.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: They will be thinking.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: That the clinician is not well trained and therefore they will not trust them.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the organizations have to create these structures around the usage of robots
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: or AI or any technology so that meaningful work is co-created by all these factors
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: because it's not only about clinicians saying Oh,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would find meaning in connecting with patients.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but then if you add a robot to the environment,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: then there are many conditions and structures and factors that will allow them
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: to feel that their meaningful work is either promoted or diminished.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned a few things here.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is not just relevant
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: for healthcare workers having some structural frameworks, but also agency as well.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you as a leader introduce new technology...
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: What I hear you say is created for the end user and also give them agency and create
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: the structure to make it work as well.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: My research was on a healthcare context with this specific type of robot,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: but Now I'm moving more towards AI and how AI is transforming jobs and
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: the same logic applies.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You have to allow your employees to have the agency,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: the vulnerability and the trust to say how they want to use the technologies like AI
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: and based on their own awareness of what's meaningful to them,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: they can Have a say on how their job is automated.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what if they feel threatened by the AI?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: What should leaders do?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think this is quite interesting.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is a topic that I found in my research with an organization called AI Meetup Copenhagen.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: We did...
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: A study we sent a survey and also 15 interviews to a community
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: that is deeply engaged with AI and in the interview especially I was talking
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: with people who are in charge of AI adoption and they have this problem.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's many people who are feeling threatened and They are scared about AI
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: and they are a big challenge for AI adoption.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: But until now,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: there's no clear answer on what to do with this type of people who are scared
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: about AI.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing that we found in this report that I did is that AI literacy is key
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: and AI literacy means Understanding at a good level what AI is
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: and how can you use it for your own advantage.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like information in general,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: information about something gives you power to make decisions.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in that sense,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: when you know what AI is and you Understand there is nothing to be so scared about.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying so scared because maybe we can be scared.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit scary to think about what will happen in the future.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if we think that
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Gen AI, because here we are talking about generative AI,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: which is basically LLMs and ChatGPT kind of thing,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: not any other type of AI, because AI, it's a very broad term.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if we talk about just Gen AI,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you understand what it is and what you can do with it,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: then you start feeling less scared and resistant.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is that the media and the... Yeah,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: basically the media and the people talking on social media about AI generate hype
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: or just false...
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: False statements of what AI is and that we should be scared about it and
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: that we will lose our job.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: This creates a lot of stress on people and it's not always based on reality, on facts.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about the hype that people create.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra, I mean,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes a few weeks ago, I was working on my website, speakingofmeaning.com.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when I created my first website many, many years ago, I had...
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: I hired a friend of mine and I paid her to create that website.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I paid a lot of money for that website.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: But for Speaking of Meaning,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was experimenting with a website and they had an AI function and it created
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: the website in just,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: it was just a prototype,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: but it created it in like, I think it was five, six minutes maximum.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just had a clear prompt and
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: The website
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: was there.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, you know, when people hear about that, people get scared.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what about programming?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm a programmer.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: I build websites and now all of a sudden you can build your own websites in just a few minutes.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I understand.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Especially web developers and UX specialists.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: In this report that I did for AI Meetup Copenhagen,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: I talked with a person who's researching about UX in
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: the context of AI,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: how AI will change user experience in the context of digital platforms and products.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this person was saying that AI can create a website.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now, what do you teach students when they are in these programs about web development?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Programming, Design.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: What do you teach them if now an AI can do it in five, six minutes?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: And she also didn't have an answer, a clear solution.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember this person said something like, we will just become curators or supervisors.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: The AI generates something but then you curate information,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: you make sense of it, you can edit after that.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that was super interesting because that's a way which jobs will transform.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: We will become curators of what AI,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: of the AI app output and in a way This requires different skills, right?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: You are not developing from scratch,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: but you need to understand what's good quality, how to test that it actually works.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it can be scary because it can be overwhelming, right?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like years ago,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: you needed to pay someone a lot of money to create a website in Two months,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: one month, and now in six minutes, you have it ready.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Alejandra, I would like to move on to discussing the relationship between meaning and belonging.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think makes someone feel that they truly matter at work?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know you've talked about autonomy, you've talked about trust, and so forth.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think...
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: What makes someone feel that they truly matter in the workplace?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that if we go back a little bit more on what we were talking about,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: the responsibility of leaders to create meaningful work,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: we can talk about one thing they can do is to
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Go to their team members one by one.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that in many companies there's always this one-to-one meeting with your leader.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And in this meeting there needs to be true curiosity on the person you have in front of you.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think this creates a feeling of belonging.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Not only with your leader,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: but with the whole team,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: because when the leader has genuine,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: genuine curiosity on what do you find meaningful?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: What is your purpose in life?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: A bit of your personal life, of course, like what, what are your goals?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you want to get to?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: And being vulnerable with your,
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: with the person who's in front of you creates a feeling of belonging.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then also with your teammates,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: if they are genuinely curious about who you are,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: what you like to do outside of job, and yeah, what are you passionate about?
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think this creates the feeling of belonging,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: but I think it's only when this knowledge about the person is transformed
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: into actions.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because one thing is to say, okay, I know who you are.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know how you feel.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I move on with my life.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then you don't see any actions.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: But when you know the person and know what they find meaningful and you do something
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: about it, then that's transforming.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because then you feel like you truly matter when You tell your boss
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: that you really want to do this type of project because that will give you a lot
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: of fulfillment and then your leader or boss creates this space for you,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: this project and allows you to do something with it.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Then that's when belonging is enhanced, I would say.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're advising a leadership team today
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where would you tell them to focus first?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it performance, trust, belonging, or meaning?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I would say trust first, because trust is a condition for meaning.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: First you need to have trust,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: interpersonal trust,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: which means With your colleagues and your leaders,
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: an institutional trust to trust the organization, the values, the actions they take.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: And with trust comes
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: the risk-taking,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: the commitment from people to put their heart on what they're doing
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: because maybe it sounds a bit cheesy,
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: but It truly matters to put your heart on what you're doing and even
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: if it's something super simple because maybe people think
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: that their job is not worth it to put your heart in it because it's something simple
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: or something that sounds meaningless for most people but if there's something small
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: that you find meaningful at your job then You need to
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: put yourself as a human being
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: be vulnerable and that's the only way that you can create genuine motivation
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: and this will lead to good performance because I think
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: that many organizations are talking
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: about motivating employees Making them feel more committed and seeing
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: that they're truly invested in what they're doing.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I believe that it's not only about having more Friday bars and having bonuses
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: or being recognized by being the best, whatever.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: You need to connect in a more human way so that people feel That they belong, basically.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then the natural effect of this would be good performance,
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: higher profit, because people are connecting in a human way.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: So build trust first.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's interpersonal trust and institutional trust as well.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think it's not that easy, right?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because institutional trust has a lot of stakeholders.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about a few people trying to build something.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's about creating coherency in a system that is not always coherent.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: You depend on many people to create institutional trust.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's complicated in that sense.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Also in the world that we live in,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: everything is connected to everyone and communication is so fast.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Information is like we are saturated with information.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why I think it's nowadays a bit more difficult to trust in organizations
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: or institutions and Governments,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: there's too much information out there and even more with AI.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the best we can do is just trying to be coherent, say, and act in an aligned way.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: You say something, you act on it.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a way to build it little by little.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: have leaders who resemble that,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: the things you're talking about,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: because they are an extended part of the company, of the institution as well.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a big part of it.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: They are the image of the company.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: They are The role models of many people in their team,
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: they need to be
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: one step ahead so they don't lose this trust, this coherency.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have to say it's difficult also because humans in general are not
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: coherent.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are changing our minds all the time.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: We are in the, I really like this phrase, in the endless process of becoming.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: We don't stop.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: We never stop changing.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's completely human.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: We are not machines.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: We are not perfect.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that should also be allowed.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: We should also be allowed to make mistakes, to change our minds.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that what will...
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hold this coherency with our values.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because even if we are changing and becoming different people,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: our values should always guide our actions.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then we come back to the topic of self-awareness.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: Know yourself.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are your values?
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: What do you find meaningful?
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Take that to every situation you have,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: even if you're becoming a different person because you're improving,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: you're evolving, but then your values go with you all the time.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've been listening to you and you haven't said that you need to be perfect,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: the organization needs to be perfect, the team needs to be perfect.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: What you're saying is, you know, have integrity.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: Act according to your values.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can make mistakes, fine.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not acting according to your values,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't have integrity, your employees, people are not going to trust you.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because we forgive.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: We forgive if people make mistakes.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: But if we are misled or if it's somebody with no integrity,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: then we will not forgive, we will not forget.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: And hence, low trust.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, I think.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Building trust is also building or creating the space to be human, to make mistakes.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: And not only...
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Asking too much of your leader,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: because I think that's also something I've seen in the corporate world,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: that there's a lot of pressures for leaders to be perfect and to be coherent
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: and build trust and whatnot.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: But then it goes all the way around because your leader is also human.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: He also needs you as a team and it's reciprocal,
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: like everyone is on the same Alejandra,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: before I ask you one last question,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: is there something I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet?
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well...
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe I can say something about what we can do in the upcoming years
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: with meaningful work and technology.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a big question.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do now?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: How can we be better prepared for what's coming?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it's not very clear what's coming, right?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: There is no clear, yeah.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: Plan on what to do next.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: No one knows what will happen with AI.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, as you say, a bit scary because it's there.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: We can experience it ourselves,
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: which is something that I think it was a game changer because before AI was just
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: for big companies who had the The money to invest in these systems,
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: but now everyone can use it.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that changed the game.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my idea here is that we need to start with the small moments
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: that make us feel meaning at work.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: Big or small moments that make us feel fulfilled.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then try to think how can we preserve them or enhance them in a way with AI.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because in my research I could see that
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: many people are either too scared
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: or too excited about AI.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we need to find a middle ground
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: where we realistically know how we can use it for Our best advantage.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when you know what's meaningful to you,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: then you have a clear idea on what AI could do for you or with you.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because There's also many people who see AI as an actor,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: as an agent who would work alongside you,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: but other people see it as a tool, just a tool.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's no right or wrong,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: but I think the main thing is to use it for your best advantage
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: and Be one step ahead because many people just wait
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: and see how their organization tells them to use AI.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, we will have a training and then we will tell you to use it in this way.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a bit of a rebel, maybe, but I think that it's more...
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: Human to allow employees to use AI in a way that makes sense to them,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: not to the organization as a whole.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is also again what I found in my research with the theory
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: about how agency helps build structures and structures enable or constrain people.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't allow employees to have a say on how to use AI,
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: then
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: think it's just going to be an awful result on how humans will feel with AI.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be able to
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: To have a say, to be empowered.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good word.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: To empower employees to use AI.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I have seen it in the context of Denmark,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: it really feels like organizations are having this...
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: Urgency of creating teams who will figure out which tools the employees have and
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: then the employees will be trained.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then they will actually not even use the tool because they will forget about it.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then all the effort,
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: all the money is lost because the employee just literally forgot about this tool
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: because it's not even relevant for what they do.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's as simple as
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: if they are using a tool to automate,
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: The contact with customer,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: then maybe the employee won't have to write emails to stay in touch with clients.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't know if that person actually likes writing emails to stay in touch with clients.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: These are tasks that could be meaningful to me, but super monotonous and tedious for you.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's so personal that you really need to go one by one.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a general use of AI.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: We need to go deeper into these more even philosophical questions.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: What do you actually enjoy?
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: What gives you this fulfillment?
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: And also allow people to say,
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't find anything meaningful at work.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have always thought about it.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm a person who finds meaning at what I do.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I have talked to other people who tell me, you know, I could just not work.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot find anything meaningful to do at work.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just do it because I need to pay my bills.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if I could, I would never work.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm asking them, but think about something else, something you have never done.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: Think about other type of job, not the one you have at this moment in time, but something else.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, no, I would just prefer not to work at all.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also an option, right?
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because not everyone can find meaning in small things.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: What I hear you say is have a dialogue with your colleagues, with your employees.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I really like when you said empower people to use AI.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about instructing them or educating them, but empowering them.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's related to the agency you've been talking about since the beginning of our talk today.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that The agency will allow employees to innovate.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: This means adding new features,
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: proposing how to keep developing the technology because that's also
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: an ongoing process.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Technologies are not just made this one time and then they are like Static.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can always change technology.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a process,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: it's a continuum of understanding what users need and then changing the development
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: of this technology.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something very simple if you think about it.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think society doesn't look at it that way.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that society looks at it a very deterministic way.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, this is how AI looks like.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it will always be.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how can I use it?
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we need to start changing our mindset.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think more about like, This is how it looks like right now, but what if we could do this?
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: What if we could use it this way?
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or what if we, you know, like just empower ourselves to change it?
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we feel disempowered because we are not working in that tech company.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know anyone who can help us.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why tech providers need to be more open in their innovation processes,
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: give us the space where we can give our opinion or just test the technologies in
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: a way where the feedback is easily communicated.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because if people are involved and engaged,
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: if it's coming from them, Then they'll probably embrace it as well.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think in general, humans,
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: if we feel,
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: as you were saying,
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: the belonging,
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: you belong to a society where you can interact
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: with how technologies are being developed,
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: then of course you will be more invested in using them.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or even in the organizational level,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_01: if you are having training from the new AI department on how
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: to use this new AI tool, then it should be like a bilateral
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: kind of training.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: we will tell you how to use it,
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: but you need to tell us if it makes sense for you, how can we change it?
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, just like...
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Before I ask you the last question,
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: where can people find you Alejandra if they would like to reach out or read more
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: about you?
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I also created my website with AI and you can find me at alejandrarrojas.org
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: and there I created some sort of short podcast episodes so people can listen
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: to my research in a very digestible way.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you can also find there the PDFs of my research papers and more information about it.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_00: One last question that I ask everybody.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the question is,
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: if you would give us one advice,
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: only one advice for a better, more meaningful life, what would it be?
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It would be to be vulnerable.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: To open your heart to new experiences, to connecting with people.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think throughout the podcast I was talking about meaningful work
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: in general,
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: but if we think more broadly,
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_01: a meaningful life can only be created if you connect with people,
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: if you're vulnerable, if you...
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you allow yourself to be human.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's scary to be vulnerable,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: but I think my advice is to be vulnerable with others, but also with yourself.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes we're also scared of digging deeper in your mind,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: in your heart, because it's scary, right?
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: To ask yourself those uncomfortable questions or just understand your worries, your traumas.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think being more vulnerable with yourself can allow you to have a more meaningful life.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for a great conversation.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've written down a few things here and one...
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that you said that I really loved is building trust is creating space
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: for people to be human.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Building trust is creating space for people to be human.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about trust today.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about belonging.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about giving people agency.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you talked about AI.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And also the importance of empowering people to use AI and involving them in
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_00: the process as well by giving them agency.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: In the beginning you said something that will stay with me.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: You said that meaning it's small moments that compound over time.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank you Alejandra for this interesting conversation.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: of Meaning.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: share it with someone you care about,
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_00: a friend, a partner, or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.