Latest / Divorce Dialogues / How To Set Boundaries With A High Conflict Ex | Deborah Wilder
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- Deborah Wilder (00:00): The body knows before the mind does. And if, let's say every time you see your husband's face or your wife's face or name on the phone and you just start getting anxious or your heart starts to beat more quickly, the body knows our bodies are wired to protect us. And if we're in a constant state of fight or flight where we're anxious most of the time, this isn't just situational or episodic. It's a pattern. Katherine Miller (00:26): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. I talk a lot on this show about the idea that divorce doesn't have to be war, that understanding that what's important to you and what's important to the other person can help you make better decisions, negotiate more effectively, and move through divorce with greater dignity. But that kind of approach assumes something really important, and that is that both people are capable of participating in the process in reasonably good faith. And sometimes that is simply not the dynamic. There's a difference between the conflict that naturally comes with the end of a marriage and a pattern in which one person of the two uses manipulation, intimidation, emotional abuse, or coercive control. (01:35): In those relationships, some of the advice we commonly give people about divorce, communicate better, be flexible, find the compromise. It may not only fail to work, it may actually leave someone more confused and more vulnerable. So how do you know what you are dealing with and how do you approach divorce differently when cooperation itself may not actually be a realistic goal? My guest today is Dr. Deborah Wilder, a licensed psychologist, divorce mediator, parenting coordinator, reunification therapist, and certified narcissistic abuse treatment clinician. With more than 35 years of experience working with individuals, couples, and families in crisis, she brings both a clinical and practical understanding of what happens when the emotional realities of divorce collide with the legal process. And she's also a contributing author of Divorce Decoded: A Manifesto for Women Navigating Divorce and Beyond. Today, we're going to talk about how to distinguish ordinary divorce conflict from more destructive patterns, how emotional abuse can affect the person experiencing it, and what it means to protect yourself and your children while still moving through divorce with dignity. (02:48): Welcome, Dr. Deborah Wilder. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Deborah Wilder (02:51): Well, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here. Katherine Miller (02:53): And I really am glad that we're going to be talking about this word narcissist or narcissistic because it is certainly a buzzword and everyone's a little narcissistic, period, and a little narcissistic going through divorce at times. But when you have a really high conflict divorce, we use that term a lot, what do you think that actually means and how is it different from just normal conflict that we might reasonably expect during a painful separation? Deborah Wilder (03:19): What's interesting, just starting with the term high conflict, in my experience in a high conflict relationship or divorce, often the conflict starts with just one person, that you just have one person. It doesn't mean that both people have conflict. So in a high conflict divorce, the conflict from the relationship just tends to move to the divorce. So what's interesting too is there are different types of conflict. Normal conflict, people have arguments, but if the goal is to resolve the issue, that's different because people can argue and discuss in the spirit of resolution in a really high conflict marriage, which may include a narcissist or someone with narcissistic traits or emotional abuser. The goal isn't resolution, it's winning and it's power and it's coercive control and we may get to some of these things. But typically in my experience, and I imagine yours as well, when there has been a lot of conflict in a relationship or in a marriage and there have been patterns there, then those patterns often move to the divorce and they just show up a little bit differently. (04:27): So regular conflict is done and dealt with in the spirit of resolution where both people really want to solve the problem, but in an emotionally abusive or narcissistic relationship, then that is a buzzword. It's thrown around a lot. Katherine Miller (04:42): It's really interesting. As I'm listening to you, I'm going to share with you a personal story. After I divorced my first husband and I'm happily remarried, he was mad at me about something and I think I was late to meet him with the kids and he just was furious. So I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with him doing reflective listening. So you're upset, you feel that disregarded, you're affected when I'm late, it makes you feel. And at the end of the 30 minutes I said, "Do you think I understand where you're coming from on this issue?" And he said, "Yeah, I think you do." And I said, "Are you interested in hearing my perspective?" And he said, "Not really." And he hung up, but it was like he gave me a permission slip to not try to reach a meeting of the minds. (05:24): And I tried it and it was so freeing for me because I just all of a sudden it was super clear I wasn't going to work it out with him. We weren't going to be on the same page and I just had to manage myself and my own expectations about that. So we don't necessarily need to diagnose him, but I just wanted to say that that for me, my own personal experience of just knowing which path I was on was a huge help. What are your thoughts? Deborah Wilder (05:47): Oh gosh. And thank you for sharing that story. I think that's awesome because you did the right thing. You did the active listening and you did it very, very well so much so that he could acknowledge that you understood him, but he wasn't interested. He wasn't interested. I'm sorry he had that experience, but I think that's a great example of that. And I think with high conflict, and that's a pattern, there are relationships that are defined by certain things. A healthy relationship is really defined by the ability to get along even when times are bad, want to work together as a team. In a high conflict relationship, it's the conflict that really defines the relationship. That's kind of what the relationship is built around. Again, maybe not for both parties as you just demonstrated, but the conflict was coming from him. It sounds like that it was important to keep that conflict going. (06:40): There was no interest in resolving. You were being punished, you were being told kind of what's what, and people have the right to feel. He certainly had the right to feel upset, but the way that you managed it was a reasonable way to try to resolve an issue and you did it in the spirit of trying to resolve the issue, but there was no interest in resolution. And so it sounds like, boom, it's one of those maybe moments, aha moments like, wow, okay, now I have, as you said, I have permission to maybe live a little more authentically and reach for things that I know are meaningful to me and align much more with myself and my values. Katherine Miller (07:20): A waking up moment. But for someone who might be listening to the show, how could they distinguish between a difficult relationship, emotionally unhealthy behavior and sustained patterns of emotional abuse or coercive control? Because not every healthy relationship is a bed of roses all the time. There are difficult moments even for healthy relationships. So how can people tell the difference? Deborah Wilder (07:43): Yes, I'm glad you said that too, because it's a fantasy to think that even in the healthiest relationships, there's not going to be some conflict sometime. One way is the body knows before the mind does. And if let's say every time you see your husband's face or your wife's face or name on the phone and you just start getting anxious or your heart starts to beat more quickly, the body knows our bodies are wired to protect us. And if we're in a constant state of fight or flight where we're anxious most of the time, we have to read the room or we have to feel like we've got to walk on eggshells, that tells me when I work with someone that there's a pattern here. This isn't just situational or episodic, it's a pattern. And so our bodies get used to patterns, meaning they get used to figuring out how do I protect myself when this is happening? (08:37): And so that's one of the big ways to tell if you're in a constant state of tension or anxiety or when this person might be out of town for a week, you're like, oh my God, thank God or something when there's some sort of relief. And what often happens too, Katherine, is when our bodies are in this state of fight or flight for an extended period of time, it's very hard to come down from that. It's really hard to regulate ourselves because we're just in that constant state. We're flooded with the cortisol, we're flooded with the hormones that keep us ramped up. So one way again is just to try to be in tune with your body. And another thing is gaslighting is a big tool that emotional abusers or narcissists use. And people with narcissistic traits, they don't have to have a diagnosis of narcissism, but gaslighting is one of those insidious manipulative behaviors that is meant to have the other person doubt his or her own reality. (09:36): And when you're constantly questioning yourself, that's another sign. There's something that's really wrong here. When you're constantly doubting yourself where you have to get your reality tested by this other person or ignore your own gut instinct, that is often a sign that there's a lot of trouble here. And a lot of times too, I'll say it happens slowly. Normally these kinds of relations don't just boom, happen. Sometimes they actually do. There's a wonderful courtship and then you get married and bam, who was this person I'm married. But most of the time it's a slower train and the cycles start happening more frequently and more intensely. But if you find yourself kind of in this constant state of anxiety or worry or you're walking on eggshells, that's a sign usually of a big problem versus the episodic or the situational thing, got in a big fight. (10:30): There could be yelling, screaming. I'm not saying that's good, but usually in a healthier relationship, they have good faith when they talk to each other or discuss things, but there is no good faith. Katherine Miller (10:42): And I think also that the making up pattern isn't always the same. It's like, oh, I'm so sorry. It's never going to happen again. And then it's just like that's evidence that it's going to happen again, right? So let's go back to talking about the word narcissist. When you think about the sort of particularly online banding about of that, oh, my husband's a narcissist, my wife is a narcissist, what does that mean and what do you think about it? Deborah Wilder (11:09): I think it is one of those buzzwords, sort of like throwing out my kid has ADHD or this, that or the other. A lot of times it's accurate, but there really does need to be a diagnosis. And I'll say to that just as an aside, it's almost as if the diagnosis doesn't matter that much. You're looking for traits, you're looking for, again, patterns of behavior. But what's interesting too, in order to receive a diagnosis, you've got to show up into a therapeutic space with someone who is trained to diagnose. And most of the time these folks don't go to therapy unless they're ordered to go to therapy or they may show up in marriage therapy, but then they're performative. So there may not be an accurate diagnosis. And most of the time these folks, A, aren't taking accountability and B, aren't interested in changing anything. (11:57): So again, they're probably not going to show up in therapy. But some typical traits, there is a need to feel special, a desire to have power, a significant lack of empathy, not really caring who you heard along the way, a great ability to perform. There's the public persona and the private one, and there are different types of narcissists. They can be benign, so it's not too bad, not awful, awful, but you know that there are patterns there. And the worst kind is a malignant narcissist. These are cruel, just cruel, almost like a psychopath. A psychopath, a narcissist, and sociopath. They're sort of in the same arena, frankly. So it's fascinating what some of these people will do to hurt their partner. And I work with men and women, but I specialize in working with women. Most of my clients in this area are women. But some of the stories are so off the chart crazy, it's hard to believe that someone can actually be that cruel. (13:04): Narcissism, it is something that the narcissist, in my experience and what I've read, they choose people who make them look good. So just because you might get caught up in a narcissistic or an emotionally abusive relationship doesn't mean that you're stupid. It doesn't mean that you're weak. They look for people who are smart. They look for people who are loyal. They look for people who are strong because you make them look good. They look for people who are interested in fighting for the relationship who don't give up so easily. And I'm sure with some of your clients who've been in these relationships, when you see them and you say, "You're a smart woman," you might think, or other people, "How did you stay so long? Or how did you get into this?" And before I learned about it, I would wonder too, "How did you stay so long?" Not in a critical kind of way, but really in a curious way. (13:55): So a narcissist can really do a number on people. And we spoke a little bit about gaslighting and that's a very common tool that they use to, again, get that control and they can have control. They can work on isolating the victim, if you want to say, and creating rules, financial abuse. I've had women who are in the checkout counter and their credit card is cut off just randomly. So they can't check out or they have to call the husband. Let's say this is a stay at home mom to say, "I can't use my credit card." They embarrass. I've had people whose spouse has taken the phone away, the car keys, leading trapped with the kids. It can be extreme. It makes these women feel stupid. It really does. It makes them feel like, "What is wrong with me?" But again, they're the supply and narcissists choose people who make them look good. (14:50): And a lot of these, they are smart women. And again, I would be interested in hearing from you some of your experiences in working with these folks. Again, not just women, but men too. Katherine Miller (15:02): Divorce Dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. I mean, it is very crazy making to be involved in a relationship with a narcissist. There's a sense of, so often, and I see in my office, how could he do this to me? How could she do this to me? We have five kids together. We've been together for 20 years. I have done so much to support him or her, and I though they loved me. How could they do this to me personally? And I think that one thing that is very useful for people who are married to or divorcing a narcissist is to understand that it's not personal. (15:58): This is not someone who's picked you out to do this. This is what they do. When you said earlier they have trouble with empathy, it's not like they can't. They can't have empathy. That part of them is gone, missing, severely impaired. And so the fact that they don't have empathy for you is not special to you. They don't have empathy for anybody. It's like saying, "Okay, I want you with no legs to hop up and down." That's not possible because I think the hurt of feeling like this person is being done to, it's so hard to reconcile themselves to that. And it's easier just to realize that they just, like my husband, can't do it. And so this idea that you're going to repair that if only I said the right thing, if only I was understanding enough, if only I was thinner, made more money, dressed better, cleaned the house better or had better kids, whatever, it would be fixed, but that's just not true. (17:03): What are your thoughts? Deborah Wilder (17:04): 100% agree. Nothing you could do about it. You're right. It's not a personal thing, even though it's done to this person personally. You can't make it better. You can't make it better. And that is so important for people to understand. And a lot of people stay in these relationships because of hope and because, again, they made a commitment, they're loyal, but they stay because they hope something will change. But there isn't, to your point, there isn't anything really that they could do to make a difference, but they keep trying and trying and trying and continue to be traumatized over and over and over and over again. And so even going through divorce, they're re-traumatized. And just because you're maybe not living together or he left or she left or whoever made the decision to get a divorce, when you've been in this kind of fight or flight state of dysregulation for years, maybe decades, it doesn't just stop. (17:59): It takes a long time for the body to get back to a sense of safety. Katherine Miller (18:05): Deborah, a lot of times when people are divorcing, the advice out there is you need to compromise, you need to come to some kind of mutual understanding and no deal is perfect in all these other ways, and that some of this kind of advice is not so great when it comes to dealing with a narcissist. And I'm not saying you have to come out swinging and go to court and this, that and the other thing, but I do think that very boundaried conversations, need to know, yes, no, and without lots of explanations is really a helpful way. But I'm curious, you're the clinician. What do you think is the best way to deal with somebody going through a divorce? Deborah Wilder (18:42): I'm with you on that one again, 100%. There's nothing wrong with compromise. If two people are working this way, but if it's only this way, that's not compromise, that's giving in. And what happens in an unhealthy relationship like this, a divorce from an abuser like that, it just keeps opening the door for the cycle to continue happening. And I agree with you, boundaries are important and those are very hard to learn. Boundaries are about self-respect and the more consistent someone can be in holding a boundary, the less likely you are to have that person continuing to come in. I do DBT work as well, which is called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, which was actually developed by a psychologist who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. And these folks are often emotionally dysregulated, but this is such a great set of dealing with emotions that it can be across the board. (19:41): And when someone is so emotionally dysregulated, they need something to help them. And a number of DBT tools can fit perfectly into this situation. One of the tools is called BIFF, B-I-F-F, which goes to your point of communication, brief, informative, friendly or neutral and firm. You don't have to elaborate or embellish because the more you try to explain, the more you're inviting that person to keep going. Katherine Miller (20:10): Yeah. The more you try to convince them that you're right, the weaker you are. And so you don't have to tell them why. You just have to say, this will work, that won't work. Give them choices, this or that. But these are things that it's just got to be really simple and this idea, and I think this is so hard for my clients who are dealing with someone like this. They just want them to agree that they're right and they're not going to. I know I'm raising my voice there, but they're not going to, so don't try. Deborah Wilder (20:36): That makes me laugh a little. I'm very passionate about this too. And when I work with women, and men too, again, I just tend to work more with women in this area, but I get in the trenches with them and there is a lot of energy that goes into this. And sometimes you just need to let them know just like what you're saying, there's nothing that you can do. It really at this point is about self-preservation, calming yourself down enough so that you can make the best decisions that you can. It's not about perfection, but the more dysregulated someone is, the more they continue to hope that things will change, the more difficult it is to get through this. So I agree with you again, these folks need to understand that they need to also reach in and get in touch with their own sense of power and learn about trusting themselves too, but they're so scared because they've been punished, they've been traumatized. (21:31): It's completely understandable why it's so hard also to believe that because we wouldn't do things like that. You wouldn't do something like what these people do. It's hard to fathom how cruel and manipulative people can be, even if it's right in front of us, because we just would never be that way or do those things. Katherine Miller (21:50): So when children are involved, I think that makes it so complicated just because you can't just walk away and never see that person again. You have to continue to be involved with them with sharing the children. People feel like, "Well, I can't leave my children to be alone with this person." Well, what are your thoughts about that? Deborah Wilder (22:06): That's one of the reasons why people stay. I'm working with someone right now who has two children, young children with her husband, and she is petrified. She knows if she leaves, the children will be in danger, and that's when you get extra resources involved, maybe a guardian ad litem or a custody evaluator. But sometimes people worry that not necessarily that the kids are going to be in danger, but what is this person going to try to teach them about the other parent? In a healthy divorce, both parents want the children to love both parents. Both children want the kids to not feel like they have to choose. But a lot of times in a narcissistic or an emotionally abusive divorce, the abusive parent will use the children as pawns or as messengers or try to get them to choose or put them in the middle. (22:55): I give an example sometimes where little Johnny might come home from daddy's house and say to the mom, "Mommy, daddy couldn't take us to the movies because he said he didn't have enough money because he gives you too much money." And what I tell people is, number one, it's important to not disparage the other parent. That's really important. However, if you don't say anything, the child is going to believe what he's being told. So what I'll suggest is you might say to the child, "Well, I'm sorry you heard that. That's not actually accurate, but that's not something that your dad nor I should be saying in front of you. These are adult problems and it's up to us. We'll work it out between the two of us." But again, that's not my experience. Your job is to be a kid, let the adults worry about these adult kinds of things. (23:44): It doesn't disparage the other parent. It creates an understanding that these are not discussions that are appropriate, and I'm not going to disparage your dad for saying that, but I'm also not going to just stay silent and let you accept this. So it's also important to know that yes, kids get affected by parental conflict. You don't have to be perfect, but they absolutely need at least one healthy parent. Katherine Miller (24:09): And I just want to say that my understanding, and Deborah, you tell me if you'd see this differently, but my understanding is that kids can be really resilient if they have one parent. It really only takes one, and it can actually be a lesson in learning how to deal with less than ideal people at times if you can help them. Because in that example, when little Johnny comes home and says that, it can be really hard not to say, "Ugh, that's ridiculous," which is of course what you want to say, but there are ways that you can help Johnny think that through and come to grips with it, even if you're aware of the situation ahead of time. So Deborah, we only have a few minutes left in the show. I just wanted to ask you a question that I call the reframe. So what is one reframe that you would offer to someone who believes that divorcing with dignity means that they have to remain accommodating, agreeable, or endlessly willing to compromise even when they're dealing with a very difficult person? Deborah Wilder (25:07): I love that question. I think divorcing with dignity means divorcing with your values intact, that you can compromise for this, that, or the other, but not compromising your values. That to me is divorcing with dignity, that you maintain those values. Katherine Miller (25:23): I think that's excellent. I really love your answer. All right, last question. It's about surprise. What surprised you most? You've been doing this for over 35 years, and I wonder what surprised you most about the way that people respond when they're finally able to step out of this coercive dynamic or this difficult dynamic. Deborah Wilder (25:41): I am not tooting my horn, but I'm tooting theirs. The folks I've worked with, it's amazing. The transformation that will happen once these folks are out of this toxic relationship and they get the help they need is unbelievable. A lot of times they feel like they've earned their honorary JD because they've been so involved and advocated so hard for themselves and have really gotten involved. But the amazing part is how much better they feel about themselves, how much they like themselves, either again after a long time or maybe for the first time, and they value themselves and they feel capable and they feel strong and courageous, still scared sometimes because a lot of times this person is still in their lives, but they have a sense of self-trust that they have built. It's a transformation, which is amazing. It really is amazing. So that to me is the best part, the best part of the whole thing. Katherine Miller (26:41): And it's such a hopeful end to the show that if someone is listening is dealing with a narcissist or someone with another difficult personality disorder and trying to extract yourself from the marriage, there is a path out and a happier life on the other side. Deborah Wilder (26:57): Absolutely. Get the help that you need. And if I could say one more thing, just very quickly, I did not make this up, but when I read it, I'm like, "This is so appropriate." It's something along the lines of forgive yourself for not knowing what only time could teach you. It fits so well in here and you've got to give yourself some time too. Katherine Miller (27:17): Deborah Wilder, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. Deborah Wilder (27:21): Thank you. Katherine Miller (27:26): If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.