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074: Pirates in California? | Michael Hardwick Part 2 · California Frontier

• 0:00
  Damian Bacich: Welcome to part two of my interview with Michael Hardwick.
• 0:04
  Damian Bacich: On the second part, we get into more detail, especially about pirates on the coast of California and the attack by the famous, uh, pirate.
• 0:16
  Damian Bacich: I Bouchard.
• 0:17
  Damian Bacich: We also talk about the fate.
• 0:20
  Damian Bacich: Of some of these really interesting cannons that were at the Presidios.
• 0:26
  Damian Bacich: And toward the end of the conversation we talk about the history, preservation of history in California, and we even get into a very interesting discussion, which I hope to continue later about, uh, horticulture in Spanish, California.
• 0:43
  Damian Bacich: So without further ado.
• 0:46
  Damian Bacich: The second half of my conversation with Michael Hardwick.
• 0:59
  Damian Bacich: Can you talk a little bit about Bouchard, who he was this pirate that came down or, yeah, down the coast.
• 1:05
  Michael Harwick: Uh, originally I think he, he was with Napoleon, but he got a, a letter of, of, Mark, uh, from Argentina to be, uh, to prey on Spanish shipping.
• 1:17
  Michael Harwick: So he put together a fleet in Hawaii and, uh, decided to come raid the coast of California.
• 1:25
  Michael Harwick: Uh, so he started up in Monterey and uh, they had a big sea battle there.
• 1:32
  Michael Harwick: Uh, and he actually captured the town of Monterey, chased the governor out.
• 1:38
  Michael Harwick: Governor actually had to leave town, and he burned the city and held it for like six out six days.
• 1:46
  Michael Harwick: And then he got.
• 1:47
  Michael Harwick: Um, he got, he decided to just come down the coast and start ravaging the coast.
• 1:53
  Michael Harwick: So he hit, he hit here, Santa Barbara area, Refugio, which was a big, kind of a trading area, and he sacked that place and uh, and then went, kept going south and, um, I think he, San Juan Capistrano, I think he hit that place.
• 2:11
  Michael Harwick: So anyway, this got the vice royal up in arms, you know, and, um, we didn't really have the forces available to fend off this this sort of invasion.
• 2:23
  Michael Harwick: So they decided they needed to put some, you know, some, some defense up in this area.
• 2:29
  Michael Harwick: Now we're talking 18, three or four, or what is it?
• 2:32
  Michael Harwick: 18?
• 2:33
  Michael Harwick: I don't have my dates right.
• 2:35
  Damian Bacich: What was it It, was it 18?
• 2:39
  Damian Bacich: 18, right.
• 2:41
  Michael Harwick: 18.
• 2:41
  Michael Harwick: 18, yeah.
• 2:42
  Michael Harwick: So that's in, we're pretty late in the, uh, in the period in the Spanish period.
• 2:50
  Michael Harwick: So anyway, in the, in the beginning they were concerned about the Russians and the English because everybody was sneaking into the coast here doing hide and tallow trades and, you know, illicitly trading with the, with the Spanish people along the coast.
• 3:06
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, and then later, you know, people like Rashard and Pirates came in here.
• 3:12
  Michael Harwick: So it was a big, big tug of war to try to hold onto this territory.
• 3:16
  Michael Harwick: So the emphasis after the 1790s was, uh, trying to keep the place from being taken over by Seaborne Invaders.
• 3:26
  Michael Harwick: And prior to that it was, you know, possible revolts of native peoples.
• 3:31
  Damian Bacich: Should we go to the next one?
• 3:33
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, well now we get into, uh, the scan, the Spanish cannon, the removal of them from California.
• 3:43
  Michael Harwick: Uh, the top picture there, you see the, uh, invasion, uh, of Monterey, uh, in 1845.
• 3:52
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, they capture the, uh, um, they capture a lot of the cannons at that point.
• 4:00
  Michael Harwick: Um, and, uh, let me see if I can get something in the book here that talks a little bit about that.
• 4:09
  Michael Harwick: Um.
• 4:10
  Michael Harwick: yeah, so that's a watercolor at the top, uh, of the assault done by William Henry, um Meyers.
• 4:18
  Michael Harwick: This is in the book in 1842.
• 4:22
  Michael Harwick: And to the right you can see a, uh, a battery with a circle of, uh, and the flagpole.
• 4:29
  Michael Harwick: And the garrison has got six counted, uh, cannon mount mounted in a barbette up there.
• 4:35
  Michael Harwick: And, um, so these are the cannon that they, they, when they stormed that, and, um, and this is what they found when they stormed it.
• 4:46
  Michael Harwick: From the Ele Alen Alonzo Jackson.
• 4:48
  Michael Harwick: This is in the book.
• 4:49
  Michael Harwick: Page 1 0 5 said The Stormers marched up to the fort, which was situated on a hill high hill, fronting the sea.
• 4:57
  Michael Harwick: Here the Mexican colors were flying.
• 4:59
  Michael Harwick: These were soon hauled down and hoisted, and we hoisted the stars and stripes.
• 5:04
  Michael Harwick: The battery of the fort consisted of 14 long brass and iron guns with which an effectual resistance might have been made had they been properly handled.
• 5:16
  Michael Harwick: We found that in the magazine about a ton of powder with any quantity of copper and iron shot.
• 5:24
  Michael Harwick: As soon as we had possession of Fort, we went to work to prepare for an attack from the inland.
• 5:29
  Michael Harwick: We converted the magazine and sleeping apartment and so on.
• 5:33
  Michael Harwick: We loaded all the, uh, so they were ready to to, to fight off, uh, anybody that might come.
• 5:42
  Michael Harwick: So they were captured, the great guns were captured, uh, in Monterey, in San Francisco.
• 5:48
  Michael Harwick: And these were, um, the Elizabethan guns, but much like what we have at, uh, Presidio, uh, San Francisco.
• 5:57
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, and they were, uh, put on board Shep as trophies of war and, um, and shipped to the east coast of the United States.
• 6:11
  Michael Harwick: Um, and when the US uh, Naval Academy was built in 1845, uh, these Spanish cannon were relocated to Annapolis and they re currently reside at the academy.
• 6:23
  Michael Harwick: Um, so there you have it.
• 6:27
  Michael Harwick: Um, that's how the guns got there.
• 6:30
  Michael Harwick: And the center picture is a ca a one of those bronze guns captured in 1842 at Monterey, the name of which matches, uh.
• 6:41
  Michael Harwick: Of the guns that they captured.
• 6:43
  Michael Harwick: And it's there at the academy right in front of Bancroft all.
• 6:48
  Michael Harwick: And then the bottom picture is, is our presidio cannon that or type cannon that we found there at, at the, uh, at the academy.
• 6:59
  Damian Bacich: So he mentioned, um, that those guns were enough to, to have amounted a, an effective resistance had they been employed.
• 7:10
  Damian Bacich: Well, what do you think, what do you think the issue was, there?
• 7:13
  Damian Bacich: Was it because that Presidio at that point was, was not really manned very much?
• 7:19
  Damian Bacich: or or why wasn't, why weren't they employed in a more effective way?
• 7:24
  Michael Harwick: well this was during the Mexican period, uh, uh, a lot of these, a lot of these, uh, defenses had gone and, you know, had sort of gone into, uh.
• 7:38
  Michael Harwick: Uh, disarray.
• 7:40
  Michael Harwick: You know, they weren't manned properly, they weren't supplied properly, they didn't have the proper go artillerymen to operate them.
• 7:48
  Michael Harwick: Um, the, the materials were there, but, um, uh, I don't think when they, when California was invaded by the Americans, uh, during the Mexican war, there was very, they encountered very much resistance.
• 8:05
  Damian Bacich: Right.
• 8:06
  Michael Harwick: You know, there were a couple of battles, ba basically down around the Los Angeles area and what have you, but I mean, you could see there's a whole fleet of ships that sitting there and, you know, there's troops come ashore.
• 8:18
  Michael Harwick: And I don't think they were, they were gonna encounter, they, I don't think in that area, they encountered much resistance.
• 8:26
  Damian Bacich: Right now US Army occupied the Presidio San Francisco.
• 8:32
  Damian Bacich: It remained an army base up until fairly recently.
• 8:37
  Damian Bacich: And, and the Presidio at Monterey is to this day.
• 8:40
  Damian Bacich: But
• 8:41
  Michael Harwick: No.
• 8:42
  Michael Harwick: Well,
• 8:43
  Damian Bacich: or, well, I mean it is, it's a military installation.
• 8:46
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, Right.
• 8:48
  Damian Bacich: So, but that didn't happen with San Diego or Santa Barbara.
• 8:53
  Michael Harwick: Uh, Santa Barbara Presidio.
• 8:57
  Michael Harwick: Well, San Diego.
• 8:58
  Michael Harwick: Let's talk about that.
• 8:59
  Michael Harwick: Uh, the, the remains of that Presidio is still up in Old Town, up on the hill there by the Sarah Museum.
• 9:06
  Michael Harwick: And that became the settlement for San Diego.
• 9:10
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, you know, there was a garrison of soldiers there.
• 9:13
  Michael Harwick: And then eventually these soldiers retired and moved down the hill and started, lived, lived in those areas of, of Old Town and whatever.
• 9:23
  Michael Harwick: So, so eventually the Presidio just sort of fell into disarray.
• 9:28
  Michael Harwick: Adobe's built around it, and a sim similar kind of thing happened to Santa Barbara.
• 9:32
  Michael Harwick: You know, it was, it became the old town, Santa Barbara and Monterey, the same thing.
• 9:38
  Michael Harwick: You know, the area around the Presidio became Old Town, you know, Monterey.
• 9:44
  Michael Harwick: And the, the only thing really left is, you know, the, the chapel right there where the Presidio was.
• 9:53
  Damian Bacich: Okay, but they call it the Presidio still, or they call the the base.
• 9:58
  Damian Bacich: There still the Presidio, but It's not really
• 10:01
  Michael Harwick: It's not located downtown.
• 10:03
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 10:03
  Damian Bacich: yeah, yeah.
• 10:04
  Michael Harwick: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Michael Harwick: Presidio is an army base now.
• 10:07
  Michael Harwick: And, and what's on the Army base is where the Castillo, the, the Castillo, the old Castillo that was there at the, at the Presidio is, is on the army base on the bluff overlooking the ocean there.
• 10:21
  Damian Bacich: Gotcha.
• 10:24
  Damian Bacich: So can I ask you another question, just a technical one?
• 10:29
  Damian Bacich: Uh, when, um, when Fremont, I believe no.
• 10:36
  Damian Bacich: Was it?
• 10:37
  Damian Bacich: Well, anyway, I've heard the term multiple times.
• 10:40
  Damian Bacich: Um, spiking the cannons.
• 10:42
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 10:43
  Damian Bacich: He spiked the cannons at, at the, the Castillo, San Joaquin, I believe in San Francisco.
• 10:47
  Damian Bacich: What does it mean to spike a cannon?
• 10:50
  Michael Harwick: Well, as you know, in order to light a fire, a cannon, you got a touch hole in the back.
• 10:56
  Michael Harwick: So you typically, you load the cannon with a powder and put the cannon ball in there, and then you have to go through the touch hole and prick the charge with a, with a, a, a.
• 11:08
  Michael Harwick: A wire or whatever, and then you pour powder into the touch hole, and then you light off the touch hole, which lights off the charge and fires the cannon.
• 11:19
  Michael Harwick: So if you're gonna spike the cannon, what you do is you go up and you uh, you, you block the touch hole.
• 11:26
  Michael Harwick: So what they would typically do in order to, to render a gun useless, is go up and drive a nail into the damn, you know, touch hole to effectively prevent it from being fired.
• 11:40
  Damian Bacich: I see.
• 11:40
  Damian Bacich: Okay.
• 11:41
  Damian Bacich: That, that makes sense.
• 11:43
  Damian Bacich: I couldn't understand if where, where the spike was placed, if it was, if it was
• 11:47
  Michael Harwick: no, they were right in the, in the touch hole.
• 11:50
  Michael Harwick: In fact, one of the Presidio guns, I, I think I name it in the book, uh, was spiked and evidence of that, uh, can be seen.
• 11:59
  Michael Harwick: Um.
• 12:01
  Michael Harwick: We're very fortunate that we still have those guns.
• 12:04
  Michael Harwick: And if you're in the Presidio area of San Francisco, take the time to walk around those things.
• 12:10
  Michael Harwick: They're, they're beautiful pieces of, of, of, sculpture.
• 12:14
  Michael Harwick: They've got crests of the, you know, of the ruling, uh, families of Peru that, you know, that ma made that thing.
• 12:23
  Michael Harwick: There's inscriptions on them, uh, dates, uh, you know, all that sort of thing.
• 12:30
  Michael Harwick: So it's a, it's a outstanding o other than being a, a weapon of war, these things have, uh, a quality about them that rendered them as beautiful pieces of art.
• 12:43
  Michael Harwick: And when you think that these things were cast in the 1640s and 1650s, look, you've got 300 years or more of sculpture staring you in the face.
• 12:54
  Michael Harwick: You know, I think a lot of people tend to ignore that.
• 12:58
  Damian Bacich: Right.
• 12:59
  Damian Bacich: Is this on the cover of the book?
• 13:02
  Damian Bacich: You have, uh, an inscription on one of these cannons.
• 13:06
  Damian Bacich: Is this one of these Peruvian ones?
• 13:08
  Damian Bacich: Uh, from the
• 13:09
  Michael Harwick: no.
• 13:09
  Michael Harwick: This is, this is the, uh, code of arms, the cipher where Carlos III of Spain, each one of the, each one of the, each one of the, uh, kings, uh, guns that were manufactured in royal arm armor would, would have their cipher.
• 13:26
  Michael Harwick: You some have Carlos the Firth fourth.
• 13:30
  Michael Harwick: Uh, some have, you know, Philip the second or whatever, all these different ones.
• 13:36
  Michael Harwick: Uh, so they're particularly beautiful pieces of, of, uh, CIP sculpture.
• 13:42
  Michael Harwick: This particular, uh, cipher comes from a cannon in San Juan pr, Puerto Rico, um, since this book that I wrote deals with that time period, Carlos iii, um, I.
• 13:58
  Michael Harwick: And that picture just turns out to be a pretty nice one.
• 14:01
  Michael Harwick: That's why I included it.
• 14:03
  Michael Harwick: But this is in, this is one of the original bronze cannon in the, uh, fortress there at San Juan Puerto Rico.
• 14:11
  Damian Bacich: I see.
• 14:11
  Damian Bacich: yeah.
• 14:11
  Damian Bacich: it's, it's beautiful.
• 14:16
  Damian Bacich: So was there what, was there anything in particular writing this book that.
• 14:20
  Damian Bacich: It surprised you or that you, you came across that you didn't expect along the
• 14:27
  Michael Harwick: yeah.
• 14:28
  Michael Harwick: Oh yeah.
• 14:29
  Michael Harwick: Well, one of the things I was interested in was I knew that, um, you know,'cause I got into the inventories year by year, you know, of what was there.
• 14:40
  Michael Harwick: Uh, I learned several things.
• 14:42
  Michael Harwick: Um, let's see if I have these.
• 14:49
  Michael Harwick: One of them is that by royal regulation.
• 14:53
  Michael Harwick: Um.
• 14:54
  Michael Harwick: So much powder was, was supposed to be kept on hand for each soldier.
• 14:59
  Michael Harwick: So if you garrisoned 55 or 60 people, you had to, by royal regulation, you had to have so much powder on hand to supply that soldier and to allow for target practice and to get him proficient in using that, that musket.
• 15:18
  Michael Harwick: And so your magazine had to have, you know, 60, you know, had to have enough powder to, to cover that by royal regulation.
• 15:30
  Michael Harwick: Well, I did the math on what was on hand for the San San Barbara Presidio over time, and they started out below what they needed, but as time went, they built up their stores and ultimately wound up with more.
• 15:45
  Michael Harwick: Uh, powder per man than they were required to have.
• 15:49
  Michael Harwick: And the reason I think it would be they had that happened is because, so getting supplies out here were, was very difficult because, you know, everything had to come by sea.
• 16:00
  Michael Harwick: So they, over they overstocked when they, when it came to powder, um, for these garrisons on this coast that came out as a result of the study.
• 16:11
  Michael Harwick: And then I discovered things like, gee, we did, we not only had brown shot for our cannon, but they also had grape shot.
• 16:19
  Michael Harwick: So they had prepared charges available with gr grape in them, you know, like a big, when you fire a shotgun kind of thing.
• 16:27
  Michael Harwick: Only cannon size.
• 16:29
  Michael Harwick: So they had grape shot rounds available.
• 16:32
  Michael Harwick: Um, fireworks.
• 16:35
  Michael Harwick: I surprised the heck outta me to see all these fireworks and, um, you know, uh.
• 16:41
  Michael Harwick: They kept, they kept up on their supplies of of muskets and modern ones.
• 16:46
  Michael Harwick: So, you know, when the old ones would wear out, they'd, they'd get a new shipment in, of a new muskets and issue'em.
• 16:53
  Michael Harwick: Uh, they kept very, very close control of their powder stores.
• 16:58
  Michael Harwick: They inventoried it, they checked out only so much, and then the unused cartridges and powder was checked back in again.
• 17:06
  Michael Harwick: So they were very careful about the distribution of powder.
• 17:10
  Michael Harwick: They didn't want it to get out and get into the wrong hands.
• 17:16
  Michael Harwick: So that, that came out.
• 17:17
  Michael Harwick: And then later I discovered as time went on, um, the, uh, comment down the, of the, of the Santa Barbara Presidio, um, felt that his two four pounder cannon was more than he needed.
• 17:34
  Michael Harwick: So he traded them off for something a little bit smaller.
• 17:39
  Michael Harwick: And then he got into trouble from the Viceroy who said, no, that's not appropriate.
• 17:44
  Michael Harwick: Get the, get your four Pounder back.
• 17:46
  Michael Harwick: And so they were being watched in terms of what they were supposed to have.
• 17:52
  Damian Bacich: That's interesting being So, far away on the frontier that and you
• 17:57
  Michael Harwick: but they were, they were writing back and forth.
• 17:59
  Michael Harwick: And like I say, they were being, you know, they were being in inventoried on an annual basis.
• 18:06
  Michael Harwick: What was the readiness?
• 18:07
  Michael Harwick: How, you know, are they doing their, are they doing their target practice?
• 18:11
  Michael Harwick: Are they use, are they, are they able to use their muskets?
• 18:15
  Michael Harwick: I mean all this kinda stuff was going on.
• 18:22
  Michael Harwick: I'm losing you.
• 18:22
  Michael Harwick: Uh, can you hear me?
• 18:24
  Damian Bacich: Yes.
• 18:25
  Damian Bacich: I'm sorry, I, I had myself muted.
• 18:26
  Damian Bacich: That probably ended fairly abruptly in 1820 or 21.
• 18:31
  Damian Bacich: Am I right?
• 18:32
  Damian Bacich: You know
• 18:33
  Michael Harwick: I don't know that it ended abruptly, you know, it changed.
• 18:35
  Michael Harwick: it came, uh, you know, harder and harder to get supplies and, um, Mexican period.
• 18:42
  Michael Harwick: During the Mexican period, there was a different shift.
• 18:45
  Michael Harwick: Uh, the governors were more interested in, uh, secular rising missions and distributing territory back to the locals and, you know, that sort of thing.
• 18:57
  Michael Harwick: So, uh, it became more, it became more difficult to maintain an army, although they did keep a garrison going here for quite a while, you know, and it wasn't always staffed by, uh, leather jacketed soldiers.
• 19:09
  Michael Harwick: Later they brought in different, uh, types of, uh, infantry LAN squad.
• 19:16
  Michael Harwick: The LAN was here for a while.
• 19:19
  Michael Harwick: They had some, uh, uh, up in the north.
• 19:22
  Michael Harwick: They were catalonian volunteers.
• 19:24
  Michael Harwick: They, they brought those, those people in too.
• 19:28
  Michael Harwick: You know, but this was always the presidios were always the forts, the garrisons that housed these people.
• 19:36
  Damian Bacich: I noticed you dedicated the book to Jack Williams.
• 19:40
  Michael Harwick: Absolutely.
• 19:41
  Damian Bacich: I met Jack a few times, but I, I didn't know him very Well, Could you tell us a little bit about who he was and, and the influence he had on you?
• 19:49
  Michael Harwick: Well, Jack Williams was, uh, some people found he was an archeologist and he, he did a lot of archeological work.
• 19:56
  Michael Harwick: I.
• 19:57
  Michael Harwick: Arizona and, and California, whatever.
• 20:01
  Michael Harwick: Uh, he was kind of a difficult guy in terms of getting reports back from, from him.
• 20:07
  Michael Harwick: Uh, one of the, one of the most important things I think he ever did was he, he actually excavated the remains of the San Diego Presidio.
• 20:16
  Michael Harwick: Uh, I don't know how he managed to do that, uh, on a shoestring, but he did.
• 20:22
  Michael Harwick: And he got into a lot of what the work that he did.
• 20:25
  Michael Harwick: He exposed the commandant's, uh, quarters, uh, commandant Zuniga who was there, and there was a lot of good information that came out of that because you got an insight into how these guys lived.
• 20:38
  Michael Harwick: You know, he had flowers around his house.
• 20:41
  Michael Harwick: He had, he had an inside commode.
• 20:43
  Michael Harwick: I mean, all these in intricate details that came out.
• 20:47
  Michael Harwick: But anyway, more than that, Jack was perhaps the best.
• 20:54
  Michael Harwick: Scholar on the presidios of any, anybody that I've ever met historically and otherwise.
• 21:02
  Michael Harwick: So I would always go to Jack.
• 21:04
  Michael Harwick: And so any of us who were doing Presidio reenacting and trying to become soldiers and understand how they operated and lived, Jack would always give us insight.
• 21:15
  Michael Harwick: And so, um, unfortunately he did not, uh, he produced a few books, but he, he passed away at a fairly young age.
• 21:25
  Michael Harwick: He was a good artist.
• 21:27
  Michael Harwick: Uh, as you see on the back of my book, I have a drawing of the San Diego Presidio that was probably done by him.
• 21:34
  Michael Harwick: And there are numerous, uh, plates in the book that, that he, he did.
• 21:40
  Michael Harwick: So, yeah, we lost a real resource with when we lost Jack.
• 21:44
  Michael Harwick: And I don't think anybody out there, uh, even compares with what he was able to do.
• 21:51
  Damian Bacich: Well, I hope with time we're able to, to access more of his work.
• 21:56
  Damian Bacich: I think, uh,
• 21:57
  Michael Harwick: It's a, it's a, it's a real problem because, uh, he produced the California Missions Foundation, uh, paid him to produce a multi-volume, um, work of his, of the history of the Presidios and that sort of thing, which he did.
• 22:16
  Michael Harwick: Um, and, um, it was looked at by them and decided it was very too comprehensive to, to publish.
• 22:24
  Michael Harwick: And it's still out there in piecemeal fashion, but it needs to be, it needs to really come out.
• 22:32
  Michael Harwick: Um, a lot of us, you know, there are very few of us left who are really into this Presidio history.
• 22:39
  Michael Harwick: Unfortunately, it's, uh, as time has gone on, the focus of historians has been.
• 22:45
  Michael Harwick: Other things, and this period of history is kind of, you know, um, well, let's just say it's not as popular as it used to be.
• 22:58
  Michael Harwick: So, uh, people like Gerald Jackman, myself and others, uh, we're trying to keep the torch alive, you know, in whatever way we can.
• 23:06
  Michael Harwick: And we're, we're trying to think of ways that we can republish some of this material and get it out there, sort of reignite this period of history because it really is for California, uh, our colonial history.
• 23:21
  Michael Harwick: I mean, when you look at what happened between 1769 and, you know.
• 23:27
  Michael Harwick: Uh, 1780s, whatever the missions presidios, you know, in California, all this is going on at a, at the same time that things are happening on the east and we're both fighting, we're both fighting the English, this side and the East coast.
• 23:45
  Michael Harwick: And yet this history just sort of gets buried.
• 23:48
  Michael Harwick: You know, the people that only want to carry it forward seem to be the descendants and they're so wrapped up in their genealogies that they lose track of the historical, uh, components of, of, of what happened there.
• 24:01
  Michael Harwick: So that's where I've dedicated my efforts in my life, and that's probably, I'll be dying, I'll die writing books about Spanish colonial history, you know, that we need more people out there doing it.
• 24:15
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, I have hope.
• 24:16
  Damian Bacich: Uh, we might be at a low E right now, but I do see, and even through this podcast and, and other things, I, I see people coming out of the woodwork who, who find it.
• 24:25
  Damian Bacich: very interesting.
• 24:27
  Damian Bacich: And also, you know, military history seems to never go outta style.
• 24:33
  Damian Bacich: And, you know, civil war history, for example, is, is still immensely popular.
• 24:39
  Damian Bacich: So, um, hopefully there'll be a revival because, you know, California is growing.
• 24:46
  Damian Bacich: Uh, I think hope we might be at a low ebb right now, but I, I think in the long term I have hope Um,
• 24:53
  Michael Harwick: I hope so.
• 24:54
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, we, were, we're trying to do it, we're trying to get ge, Jerry wants to start this thing.
• 24:59
  Michael Harwick: He calls a Presidio initiative,
• 25:01
  Damian Bacich: hmm.
• 25:02
  Michael Harwick: which is like a, a focus on that.
• 25:04
  Michael Harwick: But we're looking, kinda looking for a home for that and trying to involve people who have similar interests and get them going, you know?
• 25:12
  Michael Harwick: Um.
• 25:14
  Michael Harwick: You know, during, during Bolton's time at the University of California, historically they produced a lot of beau of good histories in depth sort of studies.
• 25:24
  Michael Harwick: And that, uh, that sort of is eclipsed, it's gone, uh, with, uh, sort of, you know, we're, we are living in a flatlander society today.
• 25:34
  Michael Harwick: You know, it doesn't, doesn't like to look back much.
• 25:38
  Michael Harwick: Um, but, uh, there's a, there's a rich history, rich colonial California history that really needs a focus.
• 25:47
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, well we're doing our best here to try and share it and, um.
• 25:52
  Michael Harwick: Well, hopefully people get interested in this book.
• 25:54
  Michael Harwick: It's, it's not just about cannons, it's, it's about, you know, um, it's, it's about what, what, what, what it took to support those garrisons.
• 26:06
  Michael Harwick: And there's even lists of soldiers in there.
• 26:09
  Michael Harwick: Uh, you know, so people who are descendants could go back and see if they're in, if their descendant is on one of those lists.
• 26:16
  Michael Harwick: You know,
• 26:18
  Damian Bacich: Now can we get it anywhere?
• 26:19
  Damian Bacich: Can we get it on Amazon or, or any other place or where should we order it?
• 26:23
  Michael Harwick: yeah, it actually hasn't.
• 26:25
  Michael Harwick: I'm trying to get my publisher to go to Amazon, but currently it's available through, uh, uh, special books.com.
• 26:35
  Damian Bacich: I will put the link on the website and on the, in the show notes of this episode.
• 26:41
  Michael Harwick: Okay.
• 26:42
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, that's good.
• 26:43
  Michael Harwick: And I'm trying to get it, I mean, you know, if, if, if, uh, bookstores will carry it, my publisher will give them 40% discount on orders of 10 or more.
• 26:54
  Michael Harwick: I've
• 26:54
  Damian Bacich: Well, I think it's ideal for all of the state historic parks, the, the missions, um, all of those places should have it.
• 27:02
  Damian Bacich: And, and any bookstore owner who's listening that's interested in California history, please stock Spanish arms and armaments of the procedures in California by Michael r Hardwick.
• 27:13
  Michael Harwick: And it's, it's printed in full color.
• 27:16
  Michael Harwick: I think you, I sent you an ebook and the, the print is really big and good.
• 27:21
  Michael Harwick: It's, it's, it's, it can almost, it's almost a good picture book as well.
• 27:25
  Michael Harwick: So, um, I did 200 copies and as soon as they're gone I'll do 200 more.
• 27:34
  Michael Harwick: So we just keep it, keep it out there.
• 27:39
  Damian Bacich: Well, Mike, uh, I want to thank you for, for sticking around here for so long and, but mostly thank you for writing this book, which I think is gonna be, uh, a very great contribution to our history in California and for anybody interested in California history, military history, Spanish history, maritime history, the list goes on and it is a beautiful book.
• 28:05
  Damian Bacich: Um, and then of course you are work for the state parks for, uh,
• 28:13
  Michael Harwick: Well, I did.
• 28:13
  Michael Harwick: I was, yeah, I was a, I, I think what started me on this, I, I, went to work for the California, uh, state parks up at Laima.
• 28:24
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, I, uh, I established an archive up there, um, and I eventually became an intermittent park ranger.
• 28:31
  Michael Harwick: And then, um.
• 28:33
  Michael Harwick: Then I, you know, uh, had to find a real job.
• 28:36
  Michael Harwick: So I went to work for the county, but, uh, that's how I, and, and that's where I retired.
• 28:42
  Michael Harwick: But my work at Laima inspired my other two books, one of which is Laima, uh, uh, a book on Laima.
• 28:50
  Michael Harwick: The, uh, um,
• 28:54
  Damian Bacich: I have a copy of
• 28:55
  Michael Harwick: oh, do you?
• 28:56
  Damian Bacich: on my bookshelf.
• 28:57
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:58
  Michael Harwick: That turned out to be really popular.
• 29:00
  Michael Harwick: Mainly my, because I, I did it through, uh, images of America, the history press, and they've got a heck of a marketing team.
• 29:08
  Michael Harwick: So they've, they've, they're still pushing that thing, you know?
• 29:11
  Michael Harwick: So that's, uh, the enduring history of a California mission.
• 29:16
  Michael Harwick: And then the other thing I noticed at, at, at, uh, Lapa was they, they put in a, a mi a mission period garden.
• 29:24
  Michael Harwick: So that got me interested in horticulture.
• 29:27
  Michael Harwick: So my first book was, uh, uh.
• 29:31
  Michael Harwick: Changes in landscape, uh, the be the beginnings of horticulture and the California missions.
• 29:37
  Michael Harwick: So that was, you know, what do they grow in those gardens?
• 29:41
  Michael Harwick: Not just their, their grain fields, but what every, every mission had a where to our garden.
• 29:47
  Michael Harwick: So what plants do we do we find in those gardens?
• 29:51
  Michael Harwick: And that turned out to be a pretty, pretty interesting book too.
• 29:56
  Damian Bacich: Didn't, did you mention that you were involved in the creation of the Huerta at Mission Santa Barbara?
• 30:01
  Damian Bacich: Is that right?
• 30:02
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Damian Bacich: that's, that's still going to
• 30:04
  Michael Harwick: Now the Franciscan come and go, you know, they start projects and then they let'em lapse.
• 30:10
  Michael Harwick: So, yeah.
• 30:12
  Michael Harwick: Uh, person I collaborated with my sister-in-law.
• 30:15
  Michael Harwick: We decided, an environmental horticulturist decided that we wanted to collect plants.
• 30:22
  Michael Harwick: Early mission plants and that were, you know, that were grown during, during mission times.
• 30:29
  Michael Harwick: And so that's what's inspired the book.
• 30:32
  Michael Harwick: And we did, we established the square to this garden, and as we did, we found that these plants that were growing, they're much different than what we have today.
• 30:40
  Michael Harwick: You know, they, these were the early hardy stock, uh, fruits and vegetables and um, you know, there's a whole genetic thing there.
• 30:49
  Michael Harwick: You know, we genetically modified all this early stuff.
• 30:53
  Michael Harwick: So, you know, a blueberry today is, is six times bigger than the blueberry that used to be yesterday.
• 31:01
  Michael Harwick: You know, that sort of thing.
• 31:02
  Michael Harwick: So a lot of things came out of that.
• 31:04
  Michael Harwick: And I think we also inspired a where to like project in Arizona somewhere.
• 31:10
  Michael Harwick: Uh, but we're trying to get this thing back.
• 31:13
  Michael Harwick: We lost our horticulturalist and, and the Franciscans locked the gate, so we can't get back there anymore.
• 31:19
  Michael Harwick: But
• 31:20
  Damian Bacich: Oh.
• 31:21
  Michael Harwick: they're beginning to realize that, you know, that they've left something behind.
• 31:24
  Michael Harwick: That is a potential, you know, good thing for tours and stuff.
• 31:31
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, we visited it a few years ago.
• 31:35
  Damian Bacich: It was maybe three, well, it was before the pandemic, so, and I remember at that time it was really impressive.
• 31:43
  Michael Harwick: Oh yeah.
• 31:43
  Michael Harwick: Yeah.
• 31:44
  Michael Harwick: And we had bananas in there and we had some of the early orange trees that had spikes on'em, you know, uh, that are much different than the ones today.
• 31:55
  Michael Harwick: Um, I even got so interested in this.
• 31:58
  Michael Harwick: I found that, uh, you know, LA Perus uh, introduced the potato from Peru in California in the 1780s.
• 32:08
  Michael Harwick: He dropped off some, some of them up in Monterey and they planted them.
• 32:13
  Michael Harwick: And so we had, in the northern areas, we had potatoes growing, you know, during that time period.
• 32:19
  Damian Bacich: Huh?
• 32:20
  Michael Harwick: Ultimately the Russians got these things and took'em up to Sitka, Alaska, and, uh, they all died out here.
• 32:28
  Michael Harwick: But, uh, any, the Indians up there kept the potatoes going and, uh, they recently discovered some of these ancient potatoes growing and cultivated them.
• 32:40
  Michael Harwick: And so I, I got, I contacted them and they sent me some potatoes from Alaska and we were gonna gonna plan'em out there.
• 32:48
  Michael Harwick: And we did plan'em.
• 32:50
  Michael Harwick: Inta, unfortunately, they, they didn't last because of weather and everything, but, uh, was trying to get the potato back here, you know, to California, the original one.
• 33:04
  Michael Harwick: I think you muted again.
• 33:06
  Damian Bacich: Ah, sorry.
• 33:07
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, so it was, it was too warm.
• 33:09
  Damian Bacich: Is that the point?
• 33:10
  Michael Harwick: Yeah.
• 33:10
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, it's a northern, uh, you know, it, it takes a little cooler climate for those to grow.
• 33:17
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, but I mean, LA of course, later we, they hybrid eyes, the things, and, you know, we got these monster potatoes now and, you know, original potatoes were little guys,
• 33:29
  Damian Bacich: Mm-hmm.
• 33:31
  Michael Harwick: but, um, yeah, things like that, you know, I mean, you got into it and I, I didn't get that information, uh, from original records.
• 33:41
  Michael Harwick: I had to get that information from Victorian visits of the missions.
• 33:46
  Michael Harwick: Uh, they, they came and they wrote books and they said, oh, the garden is still there at these various missions, and here's what's in it.
• 33:54
  Michael Harwick: So from that, I was able to determine, you know, the plants that were, were, were at the various missions.
• 34:02
  Damian Bacich: Ah, how interesting.
• 34:03
  Michael Harwick: And yeah, it's, it's amazing'cause those things went on for a long time.
• 34:07
  Michael Harwick: You know, even our grape stock, you know, uses original, original mission, grape stock, and then he grafts stuff onto it, you know, and then, and so in the Victorian period there's a pure fusion of, of plants that come into California.
• 34:22
  Michael Harwick: But before that, you know, we're still, we're still looking at mission era plants that are growing in and around the various missions.
• 34:32
  Damian Bacich: Well sometime if you've got time, I'd love to ask you some more about that specific topic because that sounds very interesting as Well,
• 34:39
  Michael Harwick: Well, I put a, uh, my first book went out to document that and I have since upgraded it.
• 34:46
  Michael Harwick: And, uh, that'll probably be my next book because we revised edition of that book.
• 34:51
  Damian Bacich: Well, I'll be looking forward to that one.
• 34:53
  Michael Harwick: Yeah.
• 34:54
  Michael Harwick: I only had a few missions in it, um, originally, but, uh, the new one has got virtually all the missions in it.
• 35:01
  Damian Bacich: Oh wow.
• 35:02
  Damian Bacich: Okay, Yeah.
• 35:03
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 35:05
  Damian Bacich: well Mike, uh, thank you so much for this.
• 35:08
  Damian Bacich: I will, um, I think, I hope everybody gets, goes out and gets the book and, uh, we'll this will be, you can either watch it on YouTube or listen as a podcast, but, uh, the, um, the images will certainly be available on the video, so, so, yeah.
• 35:27
  Damian Bacich: Thank you so much.
• 35:29
  Michael Harwick: well if anybody has a trouble getting the book, they can actually write to me direct and I, I'll give'em a$5 discount
• 35:35
  Damian Bacich: Excellent.
• 35:36
  Michael Harwick: $35 book and, and throw the shipping in for free if they're interested.
• 35:42
  Damian Bacich: Okay, so I'll put, I'll, uh, I'll put your email on the, uh,
• 35:46
  Michael Harwick: Yeah, sure.
• 35:47
  Michael Harwick: Yeah.
• 35:49
  Damian Bacich: Well, great.
• 35:49
  Damian Bacich: Thank you so much, Mike.
• 35:51
  Michael Harwick: Well, I appreciate it and hopefully we'll, uh, get together more, hear more from you./