Latest / Startup Dad / How to Make Screentime Actually Work for Your Family with Chad Pytel | Dad of 2
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Chad Pytel: I think as parents you expect to be listened to and, obeyed. [00:00:05] Chad Pytel: just because your kid. Is not doing that doesn't mean that they're just being difficult. it was easier to have a conversation about how this wouldn't be a fight. how do we wanna do it, [00:00:18] Chad Pytel: basically, and coming up with systems that worked for both of us instead of making it a fight. [00:00:23] Adam Fishman: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. In today's episode, I'm joined by Chad Pytel. He's the founder and CEO of thoughtbot, which partners with companies to help them build and develop new products. [00:00:45] Adam Fishman: He's also the co-founder of a media company called 12 Sided Studios. And the host of a very hilariously named podcast, which you'll learn about on today's show. He's a husband and the father of two teenagers. We talked about why he started a second company and how his kids are getting involved, whether the teenage use are really all that bad, how to prioritize the small things when time passes so, so quickly, and his contrarian opinions on screen time. [00:01:12] Adam Fishman: If you like what you hear, please subscribe to Startup Dad on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Chad Pytel. Welcome, Chad Pytel, a Startup Dad, Chad, I'm stoked to have you on the show today. Thank you for joining me, [00:01:29] Chad Pytel: I'm stoked to be here. [00:01:31] Adam Fishman: and a big thank you to Carla Berg, Webby Honoree winner on this pod for introducing the two of us. So you two are longtime friends. Is that, is that right? [00:01:44] Chad Pytel: Yeah, we, we actually live sort of across the street from each other. so yes, [00:01:51] Chad Pytel: we go. But way [00:01:52] Adam Fishman: You're both manning the, uh, the neighborhood. Watch for the, the neighborhood. Okay, good. before we jump in and talk about fatherhood, you have a podcast with a very cool name and I wanted to ask you about it, and that name is. I don't wanna miss it here, so I'm gonna read it. Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. [00:02:12] Adam Fishman: tell me about your podcast, which we will link to because we have to, it's required. [00:02:18] Chad Pytel: So on the show I start, and there's two other co-hosts as well. We talk with people who are working on products, building products, uh, working at companies. So the design, development and business of great products is, is how we talk about it. [00:02:34] Adam Fishman: [00:02:34] Chad Pytel: it's very conversational. we talk about things like founding stories, challenges people have, building or growing companies or products. we've also in the last, four months or so, also started to have what we're calling Giant Robots Unplugged, where it's actually just the three hosts and we chat about. Projects, we're working on life stuff. Uh, we just recorded an episode where we went over our work setups and our desks and the equipment we use. so it's a variety of different things. But if you're in technology, you'll probably find the show interesting and [00:03:07] Chad Pytel: you can check it out at podcast.thoughtbot.com. [00:03:10] Adam Fishman: so it actually has nothing to do with Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. [00:03:14] Chad Pytel: No, the, the story about that name is sort of funny because one of the co-founders of thoughtbot had a band we went to. We went to school together. the band performed I think once or twice, but that band's name was Giant Robot Smashing on, uh, other giant robots. [00:03:31] Chad Pytel: And then when we founded the company together, we, we like to have fun and I think that's important. [00:03:36] Chad Pytel: It's like. Professional but fun. we were thinking about what a name for our blog and, we were like, can we reuse that name? 'cause that was a good name. It's, it's too bad it went to waste being just on that band. So we did, we named our blog Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. And then when we started a podcast, and the podcast has been going for about 12 years now. we called it the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast. [00:04:05] Adam Fishman: somewhere there is a band T-shirt with that name on it, with a tour date, with one tour date [00:04:11] Chad Pytel: with one date. Quad Fest, 2001 or [00:04:14] Chad Pytel: something like that. [00:04:15] Adam Fishman: Awesome. two follow-ups for that one. One is I am really excited to hear the episode about the desk setups because I've been thinking about giving my home office a little z, you know, that's a technical term. and then the second, so that's just more of a comment. and then what has been your favorite product that you've talked about on that show so far? [00:04:37] Chad Pytel: top of mind is I just had, The president of the American Society on Aging, [00:04:42] Chad Pytel: on the show. And we actually talked about a few different products in that space, and I just found it really interesting because we all get old eventually. [00:04:55] Chad Pytel: We all have, people who, are older and it's a space where. There's just so much to learn and so much impact that, that you can have. And so I found that episode really educational for myself. there's a lot of, especially artificial intelligence, there's a lot of companies now that are moving into this. [00:05:15] Chad Pytel: Base with the goal of like providing companionship and everything. 'cause [00:05:19] Chad Pytel: if, if you're at all familiar with the space, you might have heard about like the loneliness epidemic, [00:05:24] Chad Pytel: that kind of thing. So there are people really hoping to improve that with the use of artificial intelligence. I'm a little skeptical personally myself, but, talking about it, was really educational. [00:05:37] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I'm probably more skeptical. For like younger people using AI as a companion. I think that. Maybe keeps you from experiencing the real world, [00:05:47] Adam Fishman: an old person, you know, whatever. It's just also like you want to eat like a triple cheeseburger in, you're 80. Like totally fine. You've lived a great life. [00:05:55] Adam Fishman: If you want to have a, a make-believe sunset companion. Great. but I'll have to listen to that, uh, episode two. That sounds fascinating. so the other thing that you've done in addition to being a longtime founder. Of a podcast of thoughtbot, uh, your company is that you started a gaming and production company pretty recently, you described it to me as an extracurricular project, so I'm curious what was the motivation behind that project? [00:06:21] Chad Pytel: Well, I've been playing role playing games, I'm big board game fan. It's a big thing that we do as a family or we did more when the kids were smaller, but, [00:06:31] Chad Pytel: I also, in addition to computer science, have a degree in theater and production, and I had sort of put that on the shelf for, for a while. And so, When I met my co-founder at the studio, Jasper William Cartwright, and we became friends and we started to talk about the ideas that we had for what we could bring to productions in the space. Started to get really excited about being able to blend not only my. Performance, production background with my love of things like Dungeons Dragons and gaming, but then also bring my technical expertise to the table as well. [00:07:12] Chad Pytel: And so, we've done a few different things, but the big thing, is having an entirely green screen studio where the players are sitting as they play the games and building 3D virtual environments around them that are rendered in real time. Around them on camera. It's a little bit like the Star Wars volume that Disney has created. [00:07:33] Chad Pytel: But [00:07:34] Chad Pytel: for even bigger nerds and Star Wars nerds, [00:07:38] Adam Fishman: That sounds so cool. And your kids are, they, they may not play board games as much anymore, but they're into the production company. They're very supportive of [00:07:47] Chad Pytel: they're very supportive. [00:07:49] Chad Pytel: I have an on-air light, up in the corner of my office, my, that my son got me for Father's Day. I was like, you're starting this. and it was a really thoughtful gift. in the space of roleplaying games, and there's what is called actual play shows where it's basically radio drama, people are playing d and d as in their characters. [00:08:10] Chad Pytel: It's recorded either on video or. Audio only and there's some really popular shows in the Space Dimension 20 critical role. and they actually listened to some of those shows even before I did. [00:08:23] Chad Pytel: And so now that I've gotten in the space and we've produced shows on critical role, we've worked with and had casts of people who are on Dimension 20, I get to be a little famous for them. [00:08:36] Chad Pytel: And so they're very supportive of that. [00:08:38] Adam Fishman: That's cool. It's like nerd famous, [00:08:40] Chad Pytel: Yeah. it's nerd fairness. [00:08:41] Adam Fishman: Yeah. I love that. so speaking of your kids, you have two teenagers, 14-year-old, and a 16-year-old. and I have to ask, how bad are the teenage years? [00:08:52] Chad Pytel: I don't wanna lead people astray, but I think we've gotten pretty lucky. [00:08:56] Chad Pytel: they're both. Very responsible, there hasn't been any huge problems yet. Now that probably means there will be a huge problem. [00:09:05] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:09:07] Chad Pytel: the biggest issue for us has been our 14-year-old. And just the level of responsibility and self,organization that you need as you go into middle school and high school [00:09:18] Chad Pytel: was a little bit of a challenge for them. we've had to work with them to really manage that. But they've, also really made tremendous progress over the last couple of years to the point where. they are self managing most of that, and they just finished eighth grade with Straight A's, [00:09:40] Chad Pytel: which is just from where we were a few years ago. [00:09:44] Chad Pytel: Remarkable. I think the biggest change, uh, though in the house is it's like they come home, they go in their rooms and they close the doors [00:09:55] Chad Pytel: until dinnertime. [00:09:56] Chad Pytel: you know, like I was saying, we used to, when they were a little bit younger, every evening we, you know, have dinner, then maybe play a board game, those kinds of things. they have so much work and homework, that after dinner they have to go, do that and then also talk with friends. [00:10:14] Adam Fishman: You have no idea how much homework is happening versus how much talk with friends is happening. [00:10:19] Chad Pytel: yeah. [00:10:20] Chad Pytel: it's getting done as evidenced by the grades, although that is one difference between, my wife and I, I tend to be a little bit more relaxed about that sort of thing than, than she does. [00:10:33] Adam Fishman: you know, it's funny you mentioned your 14-year-old and the like executive functioning organization stuff. We have a 13-year-old, almost 13-year-old, and had that same kind of discussion with her, like kinda got her going and then now. Now she's more annoyed when we check in with her. She's like, I got this. [00:10:50] Adam Fishman: Like, and, and clearly does, you know, so, it's one of those things that transition, they're like, oh wow, you actually do know what you're doing now. Like, [00:10:58] Chad Pytel: amazing. And our 16-year-old got a job and [00:11:02] Chad Pytel: was, is really into cars and really wanted the independence of having a car. So he just got his license has been working a job for a few and the summer has been and been good 'cause he is been able to basically double his hours. [00:11:14] Chad Pytel: So he just bought like a beater. [00:11:16] Chad Pytel: For $1,700 [00:11:18] Chad Pytel: on his own, [00:11:20] Chad Pytel: had to go through the license and, uh, the registration process and go to the DMV by, by himself and wait in line and do all that stuff himself. I'm both proud and terrified. Uh. [00:11:32] Adam Fishman: how was the teaching, the driving process, like who was in charge of that in your household and how like white knuckled were you or your wife in the car? [00:11:44] Chad Pytel: It was me, [00:11:46] Chad Pytel: just around parking lots and, and that kind of thing. I worked very hard not to be nervous. But he made it. He made it okay. [00:11:55] Chad Pytel: Uh, because he was so motivated and, it's just his thing. [00:12:01] Chad Pytel: we're fortunate that there's actually automotive classes, not, not driving, like actual, they have a garage at the high school here. [00:12:08] Chad Pytel: So [00:12:09] Chad Pytel: two days a week he works in that garage as part of a class that he takes for automotive repair. And so he was very motivated to drive, and so I was able to get him to the point where he was doing that and then he took driver's ed lessons and driving. So someone else was doing that. [00:12:26] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Very cool. I feel, I feel like the, the car class, the like mechanics class in school is like a, disappearing art. but I love to hear that, that that exists, One of the things that AI will probably not take from us is the ability to repair a car, [00:12:43] Chad Pytel: it's true, although electric vehicles are completely different. [00:12:47] Chad Pytel: they actually don't really teach any of that in the class because they just don't have the experience and the, the equipment, [00:12:55] Chad Pytel: uh, to be able to do it. So it's more people bringing their traditional cars into [00:13:01] Chad Pytel: the shop to be fixed. [00:13:03] Adam Fishman: one thing that you have discovered is that your two kids are very different from one [00:13:08] Adam Fishman: another, how long did it take you to come to that realization? [00:13:12] Chad Pytel: It was a difficult realization, it didn't take long because it was unavoidable and I don't know if everyone goes through this situated and maybe some people have kids that are more similar, but Noah was first and he was. Relaxed. Didn't, cry a lot, that kind of thing. he would go along with the flow. And Eden from basically day one, it was clear that they had strong opinions about everything and were much more vocal. so it was obvious from day one pretty much that they were very different people and that personality has carried forward. their whole life, uh, they just often have a vision for how things should be, whether that be the play or the art piece, or the way that people sit around the table [00:14:06] Chad Pytel: at dinner time. and they, you know, are very strong-willed. it's been challenging, but. we didn't always get this right to be perfectly honest, but recognizing what their personality was and adjusting so that everything wasn't always a fight, [00:14:23] Chad Pytel: was important. [00:14:25] Adam Fishman: so you mentioned not getting it right. What would you say, like a mistake that you made a along the way? Like if you could help another parent maybe avoid that same mistake themselves, what would you tell them? [00:14:35] Chad Pytel: Well, I think as parents you expect to be listened to and, obeyed. [00:14:40] Chad Pytel: so you might also have an idea of how things should work, how getting out of the house should work, how getting ready for school or getting ready for bed should work. And just because your kid. Is not doing that doesn't mean that they're just being difficult. for Eden it was, they had another vision and it was really difficult Before they were verbal. once they were verbal, it was easier to have a conversation about how this wouldn't be a fight. how do we wanna do it, [00:15:14] Chad Pytel: basically, and coming up with systems that worked for both of us instead of making it a fight. [00:15:19] Adam Fishman: everyone's collaborating on the system, right? Uh, so it's more of a partnership than a do this. No, I don't wanna do that. [00:15:27] Chad Pytel: Yeah. What we found was making Eden part of the process, whether that be. Being like, okay, we, we've gotta do some chores around the house. How do we want to do it? Some families do chore charts, we [00:15:39] Chad Pytel: laid out a bunch of ideas, but made them part of the process of, of how it was going to work. [00:15:45] Chad Pytel: The expectation was it was going to happen. Let's collaborate [00:15:49] Chad Pytel: on how it's gonna work. [00:15:51] Adam Fishman: The end result is non-negotiable, but how we get there, some flexibility. So, your kids are now in their formative high school years right? At at 14 and 16. Does it feel like that time has gone by really, really fast? [00:16:05] Chad Pytel: It, it does. And I, and you know, I, I feel like people always say that, and now We expect that both of them will go off to college. And so to be two years away from that for Noah and just for Eden, it's like, whoa, where, where did it go? And now the time is like go by so quickly, even more. [00:16:27] Chad Pytel: So there's less time ahead of us with them in the house than there is behind us. And that is just, Remarkable. [00:16:34] Adam Fishman: Yeah, you've developed this philosophy, I'll call it, because of that fleeting nature of time that is, even the small things matter a lot. You told me that in our run up to this show, and I'm curious, what are some of the. small things that you prioritized when they were, were going up and if you could go back and do it again, what are some of the small things that you would focus more on? [00:16:58] Chad Pytel: One thing that was really important to my wife, Rachel, and I, was to always have dinner together whenever possible. and at the time, you know, I worked in downtown Boston, needed to take the train home every day, so leaving promptly at five in order to get home. For dinner time at around six was key, and so I actually, set an alarm on my phone, but rather than just having the alarm, I recorded the kids saying, time to go home, daddy on the phone, and set that as the audio for the alarm. [00:17:36] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:17:37] Chad Pytel: Not only did it work, but it especially worked, because if that alarm went off when I was like in a meeting with other people or whatever, they were just like, oh yeah, okay. [00:17:49] Adam Fishman: Yeah. No arguing [00:17:51] Chad Pytel: you later. No arguments. [00:17:52] Adam Fishman: Yeah. That's awesome. don't wanna be perceived as the jerk that's like, no, no, no. Can we finish this meeting right now? [00:17:58] Chad Pytel: Right, right. So that is something I. [00:18:01] Chad Pytel: I. [00:18:01] Chad Pytel: wouldn't do differently. That that was, what worked really well was very important to us. it was great to set up that, Expectation because it, it carries forward to this day, even with the kids being teenagers and wanting to do things with friends or whatever, the default expectation is that we'll have dinner together [00:18:21] Chad Pytel: and there are exceptions, but, [00:18:24] Chad Pytel: that's a big one. [00:18:25] Adam Fishman: that's really nice. Uh, and I also, dinner seems like one of the first things to go right as the kids get busier. so you. Had your kids in the earlier part of starting your company? maybe first three to five years or [00:18:42] Chad Pytel: so. [00:18:42] Chad Pytel: thoughtbot’s in its 23rd [00:18:44] Chad Pytel: year now, so we were pretty well underway when, we had kids. [00:18:52] Adam Fishman: don't know how big thoughtbot was at the time, so maybe seven years into the, into life. But how did you set up or modify the company and this sort of culture and expectations to make sure that you could be home for dinner, be a present dad, like pay attention to the small things? [00:19:12] Adam Fishman: 'cause I imagine it's easy. you are in kind of like a client service relationship, like it's probably pretty easy. for other people's expectations to, to dominate, your day to day. [00:19:23] Chad Pytel: Yeah, there were a few key things, but, from day one, there's this practice in, in software development. It's not rocket science, it's just called sustainable pace. and not everyone does it, the way I I sort of liken it is like every once in a while we'll work with a client who, they're not used to working this way, the way that they see things getting done or that they see progress being made is because everyone is frantic. . [00:19:48] Chad Pytel: Used to an environment where, things are getting done, but it looks like everyone's taking it super chill. [00:19:56] Chad Pytel: And the analogy I use to, and usually it resonates with people, is like when you see a professional sports team, they're not panicked, [00:20:05] Chad Pytel: Right. [00:20:05] Chad Pytel: if if they're looking panicked, something is wrong. they show up and they're there to win every game, but they make it look easy. They know what they're doing. They're professionals, and that's the way that we carry ourselves. [00:20:20] Chad Pytel: And so that usually resonates with people. And so working with a sustainable pace from day one was key. But we were a company of a bunch of pretty young people, and so most of us didn't even have partners when we were starting the company or working on the, so. Layering that on was, really important to make adjustments over time. And the biggest one we made and was adjusting the way that we did client work. we work primarily with clients only four days a week, Monday through Thursday typically, and the fifth day is what we call investment time. And that's time for working on improving the company, our community, and ourselves. So learning new things, creating open source, blogging, writing, and community, volunteering, running events, and so because what was happening was as we started growing families and having other commitments out outside of work, we had to come to grips with the fact that these things that were important to us, if we were honest, they were happening on nights and weekends, and that was no longer an option. [00:21:28] Chad Pytel: So we needed to carve out time during the week to make it happen. [00:21:32] Adam Fishman: yeah. When you're young unencumbered or unattached, you know, you can work all through the week and then ah, we'll just write that blog Saturday morning, you know, or Sunday afternoon or whatever. 'cause nobody needs anything from you. Right. But that goes out the window [00:21:49] Adam Fishman: when you have a family. [00:21:50] Chad Pytel: The other thing was I remember distinctly, my mindset changed. Some people view this as a negative term, but I, I don't view it largely negative as like a lifestyle company [00:22:01] Chad Pytel: where, you're Ukrainian company primarily so that you and the people who work there can make a great living, be supported, that kinda thing. [00:22:10] Chad Pytel: You're not doing it to have some outsized return return for investors, someone, you know, external. That's really what the definition of a lifestyle company is, and that's not inherently bad. That also meant that [00:22:21] Chad Pytel: I was like content to reinvest the most of the profits and everything back into the company, and not make a ton of money myself or whatever. something flipped in me once we had kids [00:22:40] Chad Pytel: and I was no longer just responsible for supporting myself or Rachel. it was like this intense, protective, I don't know. It was a weird [00:22:51] Adam Fishman: Yeah. The dad [00:22:52] Adam Fishman: instinct. [00:22:54] Chad Pytel: but that was when we, like for example, we had a commission plan for people who did sales, but I never took commission. [00:23:02] Chad Pytel: I was like, no, I'm gonna start taking commission. Like, there was little things like that that flipped in my brain once I had kids, [00:23:09] Adam Fishman: Yeah, just this, it's interesting that this sort of like instinct or, emotion or some chemical thing changed in you that was like, no. Now I. Now I do have to earn, I can't just eat ramen, the kids can't eat ramen every [00:23:22] Adam Fishman: day, [00:23:23] Adam Fishman: I had somebody on the show and, uh, he talks about his philosophy is, you know, nannies don't take stock options. [00:23:30] Adam Fishman: He was like, no, I actually need to be paid in real. Paper money [00:23:34] Adam Fishman: so that I can put food on the table and stuff like that. So, [00:23:38] Adam Fishman: if you could rewind the clock to a time right before your oldest was born, do you have any advice you would give the younger version of yourself? [00:23:47] Chad Pytel: we live [00:23:48] Chad Pytel: in a world where parents put on a lot of responsibility for themselves of like, am I getting this right? and don't get me wrong, your life completely changes when you have kids. But, I found it liberating to realize that. Millions of people for thousands of years have been having kids and mostly it comes out all right. [00:24:17] Chad Pytel: They know what to do. and I think that comes into play not only when you have this like bundle of new life and you're worried that you're gonna break it. I remember, being so gentle with our newborn and then going in, the nurse took Noah to get like a bath, and was like, just like manhandling him in a way. [00:24:40] Chad Pytel: I was like, I guess he is a lot less fragile than I realized. [00:24:43] Chad Pytel: whether it be that be literal or metaphorical, I think that's true. with kids in general. [00:24:50] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I like to tell people that kids are made of rubber, [00:24:53] Adam Fishman: even though we don't know that in the beginning. So, [00:24:56] Adam Fishman: well, I wanna talk about frameworks for, uh, a couple minutes. and I think you mentioned to me, As we were preparing for this show that, your frameworks, I like to ask people about this, but you said your frameworks kind of have changed as the kids have gotten older. [00:25:11] Adam Fishman: So what did you prioritize or how did you think about it when they were younger and sort of what's different now that they're more independent in the high school years? [00:25:21] Chad Pytel: big part was making them part of the process of figuring out how we were gonna get through the day. I was responsible for, the mornings situated breakfast, getting them off to school or, or daycare. we had this whole system of we needed to leave by a certain time in order to get there. So. if we can get ready before then, then you can watch what we were calling picture songs, which that the kids, that's what the kids called them, but they were YouTube, like music videos [00:25:55] Chad Pytel: it was a lot of like little things like that, that we would discover together that would get us where we needed to be to get through, through the day as the kids got older. It's more about bigger picture things like who do we wanna be as people? Who do we want you to be? What are the rules of like engagement with the outside world and curfews and, and those kinds of things. again, I think the, the principle though of, having them be part of the process and not just dictating everything has been a key to making it go as well as it can for us, I guess. [00:26:39] Adam Fishman: Yeah, so it sounds like when they're younger, it's more. You're kind of looking just past your nose. You're like, how do we make it to dinnertime? Okay, how do we make it to bedtime? how do we make it out the door in the morning? And then now it's like, well, I've got these kids that are gonna launch into the world here and of. [00:26:56] Adam Fishman: Couple more years and like, how do I make sure that they're like a whole person or they're gonna like, conduct themselves like a young adult outside of the house, which is less about the logistics of bedtime or the morning, putting on pants and eating breakfast and brushing teeth. and more like longer term thinking around those kids. [00:27:15] Adam Fishman: Yeah, that's interesting. you and your wife recently started the like Sunday date, concept. I guess you can do this now because you can just be like, bye kids, [00:27:26] Adam Fishman: we're leaving and don't burn the house down. which we are just getting into in my family and it is glorious. [00:27:32] Adam Fishman: but what do you guys do on those Sunday dates? [00:27:35] Chad Pytel: this totally started because after I started 12 Sided Studios and was doing more the. My availability on the weekend, I was also playing in a lot of games on the weekends for my work. [00:27:50] Chad Pytel: it reached a point where it was obvious that I needed to redirect attention back to my family. [00:27:58] Chad Pytel: what we've. Sort of gotten into is we, we go, to a local place here. and we, the first thing we do is take out our calendars on our phones and just sort of go review the week, the upcoming week, [00:28:13] Chad Pytel: and be like, you got this covered. Oh, we have this appointment on Thursday. [00:28:18] Chad Pytel: Who, who's gonna do that? sometimes there'll be things where it's like, oh. Noah needs to be at this place on that day. He's responsible for himself now, but like just texting him while we're sitting there texting him, being like, you know, you need to be at this thing on Thursday. Right. [00:28:34] Chad Pytel: we're even texting the kids sometimes now during that date. but that weekly review has done really good. I think it was really annoying to Rachel we just both live by our calendars. [00:28:47] Chad Pytel: I wasn't looking far enough ahead. It was really annoying to her to start in the morning, be like, who's handling this thing? [00:28:57] Chad Pytel: or to have her be like, no, we talked about that three weeks ago. You said you were gonna do it. I'm be like, I don't remember that. [00:29:04] Adam Fishman: Can't even remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone, [00:29:08] Chad Pytel: So just sitting down, having a drink together, relaxing for a bit, and doing that weekly review. And then, the other thing that tends to happen is we talk about big picture stuff like goals. What do we wanna do? What's, oh, thinking February break, do we want to go away? Or what's that gonna look like? [00:29:28] Chad Pytel: Or those kinds of things. Having time set aside to just talk to each other is nice. [00:29:34] Adam Fishman: Yeah, it's pretty amazing how that time, if you don't. Book it almost where you have two working parents and kids with a lot of activities and stuff. You don't book it, it just doesn't happen. It just goes away, you know, it gets lost in the day to day, [00:29:48] Adam Fishman: or it's like two ships passing in the night. So, [00:29:51] Adam Fishman: I always ask this question if folks, what is something that you and, Rachel don't agree on when it comes to parenting? Where, where you two have different styles or approaches? [00:30:01] Chad Pytel: I'm much more relaxed about certain things and maybe this comes from conflict avoidance. Like if something looks like it's going okay to me, I would rather just let it play out. [00:30:17] Chad Pytel: And she has a natural desire to be much more proactive, like ask questions, make sure that it's everyone knows what they're doing or that it's going well fortunate is that, there's not a lot of conflict there about that for us. Because they're not mutually exclusive. Like if she wants to do that, okay. Like that's fine. Like it [00:30:41] Chad Pytel: doesn't really hurt to do that. [00:30:43] Chad Pytel: The other was, being a computer programmer and I started programming when I was 10. So this concept of like screen time and limited computer time was a real, like a touchy thing [00:30:59] Chad Pytel: for me. 'cause it's like, I literally gained my knowledge of how I've made my career I was 10, I cleared out my, I had a somewhat big closet, not super big, but somewhat big. [00:31:10] Chad Pytel: I cleared everything out and created a little like office for myself in there. With a computer that my parents got at a tag sale and I would just be there for hours copying code out of books, magazines, into typing it in, exploring learning. And so putting limits around that kind of activity was just like antithetical to everything I believed in [00:31:37] Chad Pytel: for my, for myself and for the kids. Fortunately we were able to navigate that and, when you actually talk about it, it's, it's easy to pull that apart. There's, there's a difference between mindless sort of passive using of screens and. Being creative and doing things, creating things, learning things, uh, that's very different. [00:32:00] Chad Pytel: And so we were able to sort of create those limits too, for the kids and, communicate that as well. [00:32:07] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I think I spent many of my formative years in front of a computer, but like kind of hacking away at it [00:32:14] Adam Fishman: and learning stuff. I learned how to type so fast because of text-based, muds. I don't know if you remember that from [00:32:21] Adam Fishman: Telnet and things like that. and that's why I can type so fast and very accurately. [00:32:25] Chad Pytel: muds is another thing because as a 10, 11, 12, 14-year-old getting onto bulletin board systems, meeting people, playing muds with them was very formative for me, and I get it. the world is a little bit different in terms of social media and all [00:32:43] Chad Pytel: those kinds of things, but having had that experience and at the time, I know a lot of the people that I was chatting with and playing with were adults and I was a teenager, but that certainly influenced how I thought about what, how the kids should be interacting with others online [00:33:03] Adam Fishman: how do you set the boundaries for your kids now? [00:33:07] Chad Pytel: basically, what we've said is that, they need to know everyone. Like if you know somebody in real life, totally okay, if not, then we need to approve that. Basically, [00:33:23] Chad Pytel: we need to see it and know about it. that was the sort of framework the rules we put in place, it's worked for [00:33:30] Adam Fishman: yeah, yeah. We have something very similar in our household. Of course, the big thing in our house is Fortnite. very important to know who the people are that you can [00:33:39] Adam Fishman: chat with in Fortnite. So, how have you defined that? Like relationship. And have you talked to the kids about the relationship that you want them to have with technology? [00:33:52] Adam Fishman: Especially because it's such a huge part of your professional life, your personal life, life growing up? Like how do you talk to them about it? [00:33:59] Chad Pytel: They were both naturally. Inquisitive about it. and probably 'cause they, saw me doing things on, on the computer and know that that's what I do for work. and so they're also both a little technically inclined, uh, Noah more than Eden, but, but both of them, they both do, are on a robotics team. Of their own volition, like I didn't make them do it. [00:34:26] Chad Pytel: on the weekends we would program together. but Noah pretty much bounced off of programming and as much more mechanical engineering, especially when it comes to the robot and so did Eden. they were both exposed to programming because they were curious about it, [00:34:44] Chad Pytel: so the big thing for Eden has been drawing using tablets [00:34:48] Chad Pytel: so we got them, you know, lessons for procreate and that kind of thing, [00:34:52] Chad Pytel: to be able to draw and make those videos. And that was something as kids that they were super. Excited about an interest. They made short little movies with them and the neighbors, they would, get an iPad and some cameras make a script and put together costumes and then film, they're not very good, but they were awesome. [00:35:13] Adam Fishman: Yeah. That's awesome. [00:35:16] Chad Pytel: finding those project things and then being there to sort of support them in that, be like, well, maybe you could use this program or, those kinds of things. [00:35:25] Chad Pytel: So it's more about just like supporting them in the things that they're trying to do, rather than interjecting myself in into it. [00:35:33] Adam Fishman: Yeah. I have a couple more questions for you before we, before we wrap up and do our lightning round. this episode is gonna drop, about a week or so before Halloween. And I am curious what, Halloween looks like for a 14 and a 16-year-old. [00:35:48] Chad Pytel: Well first of all, Halloween is like one of my favorite holidays or like the. Favorite holiday for a long time it was for the kids as well. They loved to decorate the house. Each year I would give them, it's inflated a little bit now, but when they were smaller, it was, we're gonna go to the Halloween store. [00:36:06] Chad Pytel: You each get $10, you get to get one more decoration for the house. [00:36:11] Chad Pytel: that's grown from a thing where we would actually do that together to last year. they were like, we need to decorate the house. And they like did it without me. [00:36:21] Chad Pytel: but last year was the first year that. Noah did not go out, trick or treating. [00:36:28] Chad Pytel: so that 15, 16-year-old mark seems to be, the end of that. [00:36:34] Adam Fishman: Now, did Noah hand out candy or participate in the festivities [00:36:37] Adam Fishman: in some way? [00:36:38] Chad Pytel: I think he just went over a friend's house, uh, for the evening. [00:36:42] Adam Fishman: Okay. Well, you know, they're both fairly mechanically inclined, so they could probably build some, like sets and props and things as a, as a future thing. We got some pretty elaborate things going on in our neighborhood, so, [00:36:54] Chad Pytel: Yeah. it is fun to see that progression of, there was a sweet spot too, where they were, I guess 11, 12, 13, where like Enjoying Halloween, but being somewhat self-sufficient with it. So that meant like creating costumes with friends. they started to like, coordinate costumes with friends, so, oh, we're gonna all have the same theme or whatever. [00:37:20] Chad Pytel: And then they would just do it. and then they would also, either we would walk behind them while they were going or, they would go out on their own. We live in a neighborhood where it's not too unreasonable to go out on your own if you're 12 or 13, [00:37:32] Chad Pytel: so, [00:37:33] Adam Fishman: yeah. Now you could just send a drone to follow them or something like that. So, okay. Before we end for lightning round, you have a really great perspective on, Copying other people or what I would call like keeping up with the Joneses, I think in both your personal and professional life. [00:37:50] Adam Fishman: So can you talk to me a little bit about that? [00:37:52] Chad Pytel: Yeah, I think this sort of evolved from a company perspective, but I realized that I do it personally as well, which is. I have a tendency, rather than looking to other people, if I'm not sure about how something should be or how it should work at a, at a company or what the policy of something should be,my first instinct isn't to see how other people have done it, but to just say, well, if I were in charge, or if it's for me, how do I think it should be? I think when you do that, you end up in a place which is usually simpler and more genuine to who you are as a person or as a company. And instilling that in your company culture, I think is very powerful too. And I see it at thoughtbot where when you empower everybody to say, well, how would I want this to be? Then they're very likely to create a solution or a system that works for the majority of people at the company that is simpler and genuine, not a lot of bureaucracy. and that's true from everything from the benefits that we have to the way, the way things work. in life I think that that is also. Valuable. I, I mean, if you're constantly looking to others, you might not end up with what's, what's right for you or what's simple or what's genuine. And so, leveling that up, what I find is that like. You can just say, well, how would I want it to be? And then you could be like, okay, I've, I've got that in my mind. Now what have others done? And it is both educational and valuable. If you look at that second and realize what you thought it should be is very different than a lot of other people. Why is that? that's where you crystallize your values, either as a company or as a individual.because you can see then why you chose what you did, and you can understand whether it's important to you or not. rather than just chasing or just doing by default what someone else has done. [00:40:00] Adam Fishman: Yeah, and there's no shortage of other people dispensing advice and thoughts and things you should do and stuff like that. So. [00:40:09] Chad Pytel: I mean, we're on a podcast. [00:40:10] Adam Fishman: We're on a podcast. I make it a point to just ask questions and not dispense advice on this, on this pod. 'cause boy have I learned. [00:40:20] Adam Fishman: okay, well that's a great place to end. before we go, aside from telling people to tune into Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots, how can people follow along or be helpful to you? [00:40:32] Chad Pytel: Yeah, if you are a founder who is working on your idea and you're looking for someone to help. Refine that idea. Figure out how to build not only, a great product, but the right product, and bring it to market, get in touch thoughtbot.com or if you're a larger company who is, struggling with technology or. Needs to go faster or is not moving as fast as you'd like. we also have a team of people that works with existing companies as well. And if you're in, uh, the gaming space or you are a big fan of shows like Critical Role and Dimension 20, that sort of thing, you can check out 12sidedstudios.com. [00:41:13] Adam Fishman: Okay, cool. We will send people to all of those places, uh, for you. okay. Lightning round. [00:41:20] Adam Fishman: What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased? [00:41:25] Chad Pytel: video, baby monitor. [00:41:26] Adam Fishman: What is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased? [00:41:31] Chad Pytel: we bought this, carrier that we spent a lot of money on and then never used. [00:41:35] Adam Fishman: Yep, I've heard that before. true or false? There is only one correct way to load the dishwasher. [00:41:41] Chad Pytel: True [00:41:41] Adam Fishman: And whose way is that in your household? [00:41:43] Adam Fishman: Okay. Uh, what is your signature dad? Superpower. [00:41:48] Chad Pytel: being relaxed. [00:41:50] Adam Fishman: Okay, that's a good one. Uh, what is the crazier block of time in your house? 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM or 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. [00:41:59] Chad Pytel: Morning time, [00:42:01] Adam Fishman: The ideal day with your kids involves what? One activity. [00:42:05] Chad Pytel: I think playing a game. [00:42:07] Adam Fishman: Okay. If, either of your kids had to describe you in a single word, what would it be? [00:42:12] Chad Pytel: I would hope that they would say reasonable. [00:42:16] Adam Fishman: It's funny how this evolves as the kids get older. Like when the, when I talk to dads who have like really young kids, they're like silly, funny, goofy. Friendly and then now it's reasonable. [00:42:29] Chad Pytel: Right. [00:42:30] Adam Fishman: So I love that. [00:42:31] Adam Fishman: what would your kid say is the most embarrassing thing that you've ever done in front of them? [00:42:36] Chad Pytel: they've both been in plays before [00:42:39] Chad Pytel: and they've both been very embarrassed by like just us being in the audience, [00:42:46] Adam Fishman: just your mere presence. [00:42:48] Chad Pytel: Just our mere presence. [00:42:50] Adam Fishman: Okay. what is your go-to dad wardrobe? [00:42:53] Chad Pytel: I'm not wearing one right now, but it's usually a polo shirt and shorts. [00:42:57] Adam Fishman: Okay. How many dad jokes do you tell on average in a given day? [00:43:03] Chad Pytel: I think I have to give myself one [00:43:07] Adam Fishman: a daily allotment. [00:43:09] Chad Pytel: right. [00:43:10] Adam Fishman: Okay. I love that. Uh, what is your favorite kid's movie? [00:43:14] Adam Fishman: Wall-E. [00:43:15] Adam Fishman: Wall-E. Okay. Yeah, [00:43:16] Adam Fishman: [00:43:16] Adam Fishman: was there a nostalgic movie that you just couldn't wait to force your kids to watch with you? [00:43:24] Chad Pytel: So the first one was definitely Star Wars. It turns out [00:43:28] Chad Pytel: that the second one, and I didn't. Realized this until it came up was, Monty Python's Holy Grail. [00:43:35] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Yeah, [00:43:37] Chad Pytel: We had to wait a little bit before that. They were old enough for that one. But the best thing about it was both my wife and I were excited to have the kids watch it. They watched it and they both liked it. [00:43:49] Adam Fishman: Oh, good. Impressive. It still holds up. This is good. This is good. Okay. How often do you tell your kids Back in my day stories? [00:43:59] Chad Pytel: Actually it comes up more now than it did then, and I think it's 'cause they're out in the world and experiencing things now. And some things are very different than they were 30 years [00:44:10] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Do you have a go? Do you have a go-to back? In my day story that comes up [00:44:15] Chad Pytel: The big thing has been phones and communication because it's just so different than what it was when we were kids. [00:44:22] Adam Fishman: Yeah. okay. And finally. What is your take on minivans? [00:44:29] Chad Pytel: Minivans are great. We avoided getting one like philosophically for way too long. [00:44:38] Adam Fishman: Yeah, but now you have one. [00:44:40] Chad Pytel: Now we have one and it's awesome. [00:44:42] Adam Fishman: You strike me as the kind of guy that would really appreciate the utility of a minivan. That engineering you would really would really like that. [00:44:48] Chad Pytel: they don't make it anymore, but it was a Kia Rondo, which is essentially a minivan but with doors that don't slide [00:44:56] Adam Fishman: Oh, okay. [00:44:56] Chad Pytel: a little bit smaller. [00:44:58] Chad Pytel: And once we got a minivan, we were like, oh, we are so stupid. Like doors that slide open are so much better. [00:45:05] Adam Fishman: I was gonna say, you got the worst of all worlds with that first purchase. No, you got the embarrassment of the minivan, but then none of the utility of the sliding doors. [00:45:15] Adam Fishman: So yeah. Okay. Well good thing the Kia Rondo is no longer in business. There's probably a reason for that too. alright, well Chad, it was my absolute pleasure having you on the show today. [00:45:27] Adam Fishman: Thank you so much for joining me and, uh, spilling the tea about your life and, and having some teenagers, and I wish you and your family all the best of luck, for the rest of the year. [00:45:38] Adam Fishman: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. It is a blast. Thank you for listening to today's episode with Chad Pytel. You can subscribe and watch the show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Visit www.startupdadpod.com to learn more and browse past episodes. [00:45:58] Adam Fishman: Thanks for listening. See you next week.