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417: Why Your Attachment Style is Sabotaging Your Business (and How to Heal It) with Jessica Baum 2/4 Pure Generator · Unshakeable with Human Design - A Human Design For Business Podcast

0:11
Nicole Laino: Come here to become an unshakable human and build an unshakable business according to your human design.
0:17
Nicole Laino: I'm your host, Nicole Laino.
0:22
Nicole Laino: Hello and welcome to Unshakeable with Human Design, everybody.
0:26
Nicole Laino: I'm your host, Nicole Lano, and I am here with a very special guest.
0:31
Nicole Laino: You know that I only bring you guests that actually serve what you come here to this show for.
0:36
Nicole Laino: And I was so excited when I got this person reached out to see if she could be on the show because Jessica Baum is a licensed psychotherapist.
0:44
Nicole Laino: And when I read your bio, Jessica, I was sitting there and I'm looking at what drew you to your work.
0:51
Nicole Laino: You know, it says in your bio that, you know, your journey began with a lifelong curiosity about the whys of life and why we feel, connect and experience the world the way we do.
1:00
Nicole Laino: And that you specialize in trauma, attachment theory, and interpersonal neurobiology.
1:05
Nicole Laino: That's so near and dear to my heart because I took a different path from psychology in a formal way.
1:11
Nicole Laino: I was an actor and for all of the same reasons.
1:14
Nicole Laino: Why do people do the things that they do?
1:16
Nicole Laino: Why do people behave the way that they behave?
1:18
Nicole Laino: What would make somebody do this thing?
1:21
Nicole Laino: And thinking through that always was what drew me into my work.
1:25
Nicole Laino: So I felt very much a kinship with Jessica when I read this in your bio.
1:29
Nicole Laino: She's a certified addiction specialist.
1:32
Nicole Laino: She has advanced training in emdr, experiential therapy, CBT, and dbt.
1:37
Nicole Laino: And her best selling book, Anxiously Attached, Becoming More Secure in Life and Love, has established her as a trusted authority on healing attachment wounds and building secure, fulfilling relationships.
1:47
Nicole Laino: And your new book, Jessica, welcome to the show.
1:50
Jessica Baum : Thank you for having me.
1:52
Nicole Laino: I'm so happy to have you here.
1:53
Nicole Laino: Your new book is called Safe though, correct?
1:56
Nicole Laino: That is the new one that is coming out with.
1:58
Nicole Laino: What is the date that your book drops?
1:59
Jessica Baum : October 28th.
2:01
Nicole Laino: Fantastic.
2:02
Jessica Baum : Safe.
2:02
Jessica Baum : An Attachment Informed Guide to Building More Secure Relationships.
2:06
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
2:07
Nicole Laino: So what did I not cover in that bio?
2:09
Nicole Laino: Welcome to the show.
2:10
Nicole Laino: Did you want to introduce yourself to the audience?
2:13
Nicole Laino: Is there anything that you'd like them to know before we kick off?
2:15
Nicole Laino: I have so many questions for you.
2:16
Jessica Baum : No, I mean, I'm just a psychotherapist who, like you said, studies interpersonal neurobiologies.
2:21
Jessica Baum : I specialize in couples work.
2:23
Jessica Baum : I run a team of people and we focus on healing attachment wounds and helping people get More conscious and have more fulfilling relationships.
2:32
Nicole Laino: It's such deep work.
2:34
Nicole Laino: And I think once you see attachment theory and attachments in relationships, you can't unsee that.
2:40
Nicole Laino: It's one of those things that I've found to be so eye opening and interesting because I was saying to you before we started recording on the show, we get a lot of entrepreneurs, we get a lot of founders, we get a lot of people who are in business and they come here to understand how they relate in their business.
2:56
Nicole Laino: Because entrepreneurship is never just about the business.
2:59
Nicole Laino: You are the business.
3:01
Nicole Laino: Your stuff is going to be the business's stuff.
3:04
Nicole Laino: So it's best for you to clean up your stuff if you want things to run smoothly in your business.
3:08
Nicole Laino: And I have found that codependency exists in businesses.
3:12
Nicole Laino: Attachment theory exists in businesses.
3:15
Nicole Laino: These attachment relationships, our relationship with our business, I think can be, usually mirrors a lot of the relationships that we have in our lives.
3:24
Nicole Laino: So I'm very excited to talk with you and have this conversation around what you do and what you found with people just in relationships.
3:32
Nicole Laino: Tell everybody what attachment theory is and what attachment styles are.
3:37
Jessica Baum : Yeah, so attachment theory is like the studying of connection.
3:42
Jessica Baum : And it's a really well studied science from the 1950s.
3:48
Jessica Baum : And so it's how we adapt to our primary caregiver.
3:51
Jessica Baum : And there are four different categories.
3:54
Jessica Baum : Although in my book you understand like you can have many different.
3:57
Jessica Baum : I call the wheel of attachment.
3:59
Jessica Baum : You can move in all these categories, but they're secure, anxious, which I wrote the book anxiously attached, avoidant, which is on the other end of the spectrum.
4:07
Jessica Baum : And then it's called fearful, avoidant or disorganized.
4:10
Jessica Baum : I refer to it as disorganized and safe because that's the scientific word.
4:14
Jessica Baum : But depending on how your primary caregivers were connecting with you and the sense of safety that you had.
4:20
Jessica Baum : And I go into deep depth.
4:22
Jessica Baum : We store these patterns inside of us.
4:25
Jessica Baum : So like if you're anxious, you're always kind of living with some fear that the shoe is going to drop.
4:30
Jessica Baum : The hallmark is uncertainty.
4:32
Jessica Baum : If you're avoidant, sometimes you can feel smothered in relationships or you can the fear of losing yourself.
4:38
Jessica Baum : If you're disorganized, you really struggle with being close and being apart.
4:42
Jessica Baum : Like you struggle in different ways depending on what patterns you have internalized from your earliest experiences.
4:49
Jessica Baum : And they live in your nervous system and they show up in your adult life in your romantic choices, but absolutely also in your relationship to your business, in the relationship to anyone who's close to you, who's important to you.
5:02
Jessica Baum : Your adapting way of staying in connection or dealing with conflict or fear will show up in those primary relationships.
5:10
Nicole Laino: And then if you look into like what the behavior looks like, this can look like.
5:15
Nicole Laino: If you are avoidant, then you might find yourself distracting yourself from things.
5:21
Nicole Laino: You might look to get away from closeness, you might look to get away from responsibility.
5:27
Nicole Laino: I think it's helpful if we can let people know a little bit about what that looks like in their daily life.
5:32
Nicole Laino: How would they know that they have anxious attachment style?
5:37
Nicole Laino: How would that play in their everyday life?
5:41
Jessica Baum : Yeah, like I said, anxious.
5:42
Jessica Baum : The homework is uncertainty or unpredictability.
5:45
Jessica Baum : So you're feeling like the shoe is gonna drop.
5:48
Jessica Baum : If you have anxious pattern that's dominant.
5:51
Jessica Baum : You have a conscious fear of abandonment.
5:53
Jessica Baum : So you usually know that's somewhere in your history.
5:56
Jessica Baum : You tend to overextend yourself because your parent came in and they weren't co regulating with you enough in the way that you needed.
6:04
Jessica Baum : You usually leave your body to regulate your primary caregiver.
6:09
Jessica Baum : So you're more likely to self abandon as an adult.
6:12
Jessica Baum : And you'll know like for example, like I know what my dog needs sometimes before I know what I need.
6:17
Jessica Baum : Like you're very sensitive to, you know what other people's needs are.
6:22
Jessica Baum : Because when you were younger, in order to stay in connection, as someone who developed more of anxious base, if your mom was sometimes stressed out, sometimes available, you're always attuning to her.
6:33
Jessica Baum : So you're leaving yourself and you're attuning.
6:36
Jessica Baum : And I mean, I don't like the word codependency, but anxious attachment would be more of a clinical word of how you adapt it and why you need to stay close to others in order to feel safe.
6:47
Jessica Baum : And that conscious abandonment wound up the other side of the spectrum.
6:51
Jessica Baum : A true avoidant.
6:52
Jessica Baum : And there are things called avoidant protectors which are different than true avoidance.
6:56
Jessica Baum : But avoidant babies, their parents didn't emotionally show up at all.
7:01
Jessica Baum : They physically showed up.
7:02
Jessica Baum : They might have checked the boxes, but they weren't emotionally connected to their child.
7:07
Jessica Baum : So the child learns that like I'm not going to get my emotional needs met.
7:11
Jessica Baum : Performance and success are more important in this system.
7:15
Jessica Baum : Maybe mom or dad is there, but they just don't know how to attune in that way.
7:19
Jessica Baum : So they grow up and they tend to be more independent and struggle with empathy and learning some relational skills.
7:26
Jessica Baum : That's a true avoidant.
7:27
Jessica Baum : And remember, all of this is on a continuum.
7:30
Jessica Baum : And this nuanced and I explained the Attachment wheel in the book so that you get an understanding and then fearful or disorganized is an infant that got stuck in cycles of my parent is scary.
7:41
Jessica Baum : Either they're completely checked out or they're violent or angry.
7:45
Jessica Baum : But I need them anyway because in order to survive as an infant, we must stay in connection so these individuals can get stuck later in life, like really deeply longing for closeness, but also being scared of that closeness at the same time.
8:00
Jessica Baum : So, you know, everybody's different.
8:01
Jessica Baum : We can store pockets of disorganized.
8:03
Jessica Baum : We can have avoidant protectors.
8:06
Jessica Baum : We can show up more anxious in our romantic life, but more avoidant in our work life.
8:10
Jessica Baum : Right.
8:10
Jessica Baum : And so it's very nuanced and it's very complicated.
8:13
Jessica Baum : But these patterns are very well researched and it's a very well documented science.
8:19
Jessica Baum : And when you start to understand them, I think it like creates like some conscious awareness and some understanding.
8:25
Jessica Baum : And then you can start to obviously work on healing the patterns.
8:29
Nicole Laino: And do you ever see people shift from or display multiple attachment patterns?
8:35
Nicole Laino: Do you see people that have, in some situations avoidant and in some situations more anxious or disorganized?
8:43
Nicole Laino: Can someone move disorganized?
8:45
Nicole Laino: Sounds to me like, and maybe this is just my own way of hearing it, but I've always thought disorganized sounded like a more extreme sort of state where there's sort of this jumble of things that's happening.
8:58
Nicole Laino: Am I incorrect in thinking that or.
9:01
Nicole Laino: Because it's almost like I could see someone going from disorganized to maybe one of the others as a step in the quote unquote right direction.
9:09
Jessica Baum : Yes and no.
9:10
Jessica Baum : I mean, yes, I think that if you're looking at the wheel of attachment, which isn't safe, secure is down here, anxious is over here, avoidance over here, and on top is disorganized.
9:19
Jessica Baum : As you move up the anxious, like as a parent becomes more and more anxious, maybe angry and rageful, we get slip into disorganized.
9:28
Jessica Baum : As a parent moves up the avoidance scale and maybe checks out completely and is neglectful, we get up to disorganized.
9:35
Jessica Baum : So as you move up the size and you increase the avoidance or the anxiety, you get up to pockets of disorganization.
9:42
Jessica Baum : Now, with one parent, you can have secure experiences, anxious experiences, and sometimes disorganized experiences.
9:50
Jessica Baum : In one romantic relationship, you can also move within the wheel as well.
9:55
Jessica Baum : So but we typically can say, oh, my dad was avoidant.
9:59
Jessica Baum : He wasn't emotionally there for me.
10:01
Jessica Baum : But, you know, maybe there were these occasions where he connected deeply for some Reason with me.
10:05
Jessica Baum : And I have these secure pockets or I had a pretty secure childhood, but like my parents forgot to pick me up one day and I had this experience where my body got lit up and I got really scared.
10:16
Jessica Baum : And there's just this little pocket of disorganization.
10:19
Jessica Baum : So it's like we have different experiences and then attachment is a two way street.
10:24
Jessica Baum : So it'd be like, Nicole, your attachment system and my attachment system meets and then our relational dance has its own way of doing its dance together.
10:34
Jessica Baum : So if you're more avoidant, I might show up more anxious.
10:38
Jessica Baum : If you're more anxious than me, I might show up more avoidant.
10:40
Jessica Baum : It really depends.
10:41
Jessica Baum : It's so nuanced and it depends on who we're attaching to.
10:45
Jessica Baum : But usually we pull in people or recreate our familiar in certain situations.
10:51
Jessica Baum : So if I had a very avoidant father, I might be attracted to very avoidant men.
10:56
Jessica Baum : Right?
10:56
Jessica Baum : Because that's my familiar.
10:57
Jessica Baum : And so that's what we tend to gravitate towards.
11:00
Nicole Laino: It's like you read my high school diary, you know, I felt like when I started to hear about these theories, it made so much sense to me because I just said this to someone today.
11:09
Nicole Laino: I was like, oh, yeah, I dated my father.
11:11
Nicole Laino: Not literally, but I dated somebody exactly like him.
11:15
Nicole Laino: And for many years from like my high school boyfriend.
11:18
Nicole Laino: And we kept dating on and off into my early 20s.
11:22
Nicole Laino: That was a learning experience for me.
11:24
Nicole Laino: And I think I was able to find how insecure I was through that relationship to understand that this pattern needed to end.
11:33
Nicole Laino: Sometimes a pattern needs to be so overt in your face in order for you to see it.
11:37
Nicole Laino: And I didn't know anything about this work back then, but then it's very funny.
11:41
Nicole Laino: Then I became someone actually in hr, in my corporate job when I worked on Wall street, and I burned out there.
11:48
Nicole Laino: She was the one who really opened me up to the idea of codependency in like a.
11:54
Nicole Laino: Which is really just unhealthy attachments, insecure attachments, that codependency.
11:58
Nicole Laino: She gave me a book on codependency that was out then.
12:01
Nicole Laino: And I read it and I was like, oh my God, this is what I've created here.
12:04
Nicole Laino: I've created this validation system just looking for this elusive love that was.
12:12
Nicole Laino: That I'm chasing constantly.
12:14
Nicole Laino: It was the avoidant.
12:16
Nicole Laino: It was that feeling of like, I need this in order to feel whole, in order to feel safe.
12:20
Nicole Laino: Only you never feel safe because it's never quite there.
12:23
Nicole Laino: It's fascinating.
12:25
Nicole Laino: So you talk about like how they can use this to heal.
12:27
Nicole Laino: What does that healing process look like from the perspective of your book and what you take your patients through?
12:35
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I mean, that's such a good question.
12:37
Jessica Baum : I mean, I think there's a lot of, like a lot of literature out there right now on attachment theory and, you know, understanding the styles.
12:44
Jessica Baum : But I don't think there's anything that quite explains what does it mean to heal an attachment wound.
12:50
Jessica Baum : And I talk about it at length in the book.
12:52
Jessica Baum : But our attachment system wounds live in our body, in our gut, in our heart, in our fascia, in our nervous system.
13:01
Jessica Baum : That's how we store memory.
13:03
Jessica Baum : And I dive deep into like the memory systems and how sensations are memory and how we store sensation as memory when we're young.
13:12
Jessica Baum : And this memory is always with us.
13:15
Jessica Baum : It's always scanning our environment.
13:17
Jessica Baum : It's always letting us know if we're safe or we're unsafe.
13:21
Jessica Baum : And it's based on our experiences.
13:23
Jessica Baum : So if I grew up with a really avoidant father and you do something like you check out on me right now, my system might light up and say, oh my God, this isn't safe right now.
13:33
Jessica Baum : Because Nicole, who I'm depending on right now, is not connected to me in this moment.
13:38
Jessica Baum : And we'd have to have a close relationship probably for this to get to activated.
13:42
Jessica Baum : But my system would remember all this feels familiar and this feels unsafe.
13:47
Jessica Baum : So we would start to see where we get lit up in our work relationships and our intimate relationships.
13:52
Jessica Baum : What is our body telling us?
13:54
Jessica Baum : What parts of our body are being activated or shutting down on us.
13:58
Jessica Baum : And then we can start to understand, like how are these patterns showing up in our adult life and when did they start in our early life.
14:06
Jessica Baum : And we kind of can make the connection between the two.
14:09
Jessica Baum : And healing attachment patterns means we go to the core of the wound.
14:13
Jessica Baum : So if it's abandonment, we meet it.
14:15
Jessica Baum : If it's shame, we start to accept it and we start to hold the original experience and receive from another nervous system what we didn't get at the time.
14:26
Jessica Baum : So we're witnessed and we receive what we didn't get.
14:29
Jessica Baum : So that wound can start or that memory system can start to change.
14:33
Jessica Baum : And so in the presence of a safe relationship and in the context of healing and building interoception, starting to understand our body and the way that wounds are stored in our body.
14:45
Jessica Baum : Through the safety of you and I, we can re experience things.
14:48
Jessica Baum : We can go into the body, we can hold these things and we can neural nets open in our body.
14:54
Jessica Baum : Our system gives us More streams of information and we can start to move things out of the body up into the right hemisphere and integrate into the left.
15:03
Jessica Baum : So I very much unpack the science of healing attachment wounds because I think it's important to note this isn't just woo, this isn't just like heal your inner child.
15:12
Jessica Baum : This is how memory is stored.
15:14
Jessica Baum : This is why our body is speaking to us.
15:16
Jessica Baum : And let's not keep repeating these painful dynamics.
15:19
Jessica Baum : Let's get ahead of them and start healing them.
15:22
Nicole Laino: Yeah, it sounded to me like what you were describing is like somatic therapy.
15:26
Nicole Laino: Feel the feeling.
15:28
Nicole Laino: Is that kind of what you were talking about?
15:29
Jessica Baum : Somatics for sure, yeah.
15:31
Jessica Baum : I mean being in your body, being embodied, having an embodied experience of what you went through and kind of getting in touch with that.
15:39
Nicole Laino: Right.
15:39
Nicole Laino: And I see this with, like I said, when I work with entrepreneurs, I'm working with the whole human.
15:44
Nicole Laino: It's such a holistic way because it's.
15:47
Nicole Laino: I can talk to you about your messaging, I can talk to you about your business, but if you're in flight, that's usually what's creating the problem.
15:53
Nicole Laino: It's not a strategic issue that we have.
15:55
Nicole Laino: A lot of times it's an energetic issue or an emotional issue that's causing people to not operate as the best version of themselves.
16:04
Nicole Laino: Not go after what they want because they are afraid.
16:06
Nicole Laino: Where does that fear come from?
16:08
Nicole Laino: And I always find that, you know, the best path is going through the feelings.
16:11
Nicole Laino: What don't I want to feel?
16:12
Nicole Laino: What am I afraid to feel?
16:13
Nicole Laino: What am I feeling right now?
16:15
Nicole Laino: And something that was coming up for me as you were talking and you know, talking about these different ways of them expressing and how do we heal?
16:23
Nicole Laino: This is, you know, I noticed that a lot of people will almost use some healing modalities as like a crutch that it's almost a way of avoiding the feeling because that doesn't feel safe.
16:34
Nicole Laino: So it's like they run to like, I teach breath work and I have, you know, I do eft.
16:39
Nicole Laino: And some people will use that almost like a crutch, Almost like, you know, well, I tapped six times today and it's like, well, why are we tapping six times?
16:48
Nicole Laino: Let's come back to like, what are we feeling here?
16:51
Nicole Laino: And so much of it is that it doesn't feel safe to feel the feeling.
16:55
Nicole Laino: So I'll do anything but feel this feeling.
16:57
Nicole Laino: And I will be grabbing at all of these different tools.
17:01
Nicole Laino: And sometimes the tools can be a way of avoiding the feeling that themselves as well.
17:06
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I Mean, in chapter three, I talk about protectors, and I think that we need them.
17:11
Jessica Baum : We all need ways to avoid what's going on inside.
17:16
Jessica Baum : And I would never take someone's protector away from them.
17:19
Jessica Baum : But in the presence of safety and someone who can help you feel, which likely this person didn't have that as a youngster and doesn't even know what that experience really is like.
17:29
Jessica Baum : But through experiencing what's going on in your body together over and over again, you will need your protectors a lot less.
17:37
Jessica Baum : And in the meantime, if you need your protectors, whether that's going for a run or glass of wine at night or smoking your vape, like, I get it, we all have protectors, whether we're conscious of it or not.
17:48
Jessica Baum : And thank God we have them, because often feeling is too hard.
17:54
Jessica Baum : And it's definitely too hard for individuals who don't have the experience of being joined in their feelings and need to avoid.
18:01
Jessica Baum : To protect themselves.
18:03
Nicole Laino: When you say protectors, explain that a little bit about what protectors are.
18:07
Nicole Laino: Are they coping mechanisms or are you looking at them more from like a.
18:11
Nicole Laino: An internal protector?
18:13
Jessica Baum : Well, protectors are anything that we do in order to help us cope and survive with what's going on.
18:19
Jessica Baum : And some of them are glamorized.
18:21
Jessica Baum : Like, we could work out a lot, and some of them are not, like, you know, using drugs or alcohol, but it could be going for a run.
18:29
Jessica Baum : And it's not to say that these things are bad or good, but when we're struggling with what we're feeling inside and we reach for something or we do something to try to just help ourselves in the moment, it's considered a protector.
18:44
Jessica Baum : Some people hate their protectors.
18:46
Jessica Baum : Like, I had a client before this, and one of her protectors is her eating disorder.
18:50
Jessica Baum : Right.
18:50
Jessica Baum : Or someone's ocd.
18:51
Jessica Baum : And, like, it's hard to, like, reframe it, but they can feel like they're making us miserable.
18:56
Jessica Baum : But the truth is, they developed in a way to protect us from something deeper around core wounds.
19:03
Jessica Baum : And so until we have the right support and really can go there in terms of feeling the original wound and understanding that they're working really hard to try to protect us, and we need them in place until we're ready to kind of re.
19:18
Jessica Baum : Experience and go there.
19:19
Nicole Laino: Yeah, it's almost be grateful for the tool or for the thing that the part of you that kept you safe all of these years, that allowed you to keep going and keep living your life and be, you know, the member of society that you've been like, you got here.
19:33
Nicole Laino: Congratulations.
19:34
Nicole Laino: And these parts of you allowed you to do that, these protectors?
19:39
Jessica Baum : Absolutely.
19:40
Jessica Baum : Workaholism.
19:41
Jessica Baum : I talk about it in the book.
19:42
Jessica Baum : It was on my protectors.
19:44
Jessica Baum : I don't know if I talk about it.
19:45
Jessica Baum : I have a client who was sexually abused, and she couldn't talk to anyone.
19:48
Jessica Baum : So she started smoking pot at like, 12 or 13.
19:51
Jessica Baum : And my first response was, thank God you had the pot.
19:54
Jessica Baum : Because she had no place to go.
19:56
Jessica Baum : She had no place to process anything.
19:58
Jessica Baum : Yes.
19:59
Jessica Baum : Okay.
19:59
Jessica Baum : Addiction kind of followed her later.
20:01
Jessica Baum : And we had a lot of work to do.
20:03
Jessica Baum : But, like, we develop these things in order to cope.
20:06
Jessica Baum : And the last thing we need to do is, like, beat ourselves up for the ways in which we're coping.
20:11
Jessica Baum : But we need to start to see what are they really protecting us from.
20:15
Jessica Baum : That's the question.
20:16
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
20:16
Nicole Laino: And I think that we tend to think about these things from, like, you know, that it has to be sexual abuse or some sort of, like, big T trauma.
20:23
Nicole Laino: But small t trauma is just as valid.
20:26
Nicole Laino: And we all have it.
20:28
Nicole Laino: We all have something.
20:29
Nicole Laino: It's just, you know, were we raised in a place where we felt majority, safe and secure most of the time?
20:34
Nicole Laino: But, like, I think back to you bringing up smoking pot and stuff.
20:38
Nicole Laino: Like, my teenage years and the stuff that I was doing, it was these were outlets for me to feel like I could come out of my shell.
20:46
Nicole Laino: I felt like I walked on eggshells all the time.
20:48
Nicole Laino: I felt like I was so careful, and these were a way for me to be free.
20:52
Nicole Laino: And what's very interesting about, like, the journey with those things, you know, I know some people, addiction issues.
20:58
Nicole Laino: I fortunately didn't have that.
21:01
Nicole Laino: I think it was because I did work and I didn't need them anymore, and the relationship to that protector changes.
21:07
Nicole Laino: So I think that's a similar thing to what you're talking about.
21:10
Nicole Laino: And it's important for people to know that there's no shame in this work.
21:16
Nicole Laino: I really do think that this is the way that we're finally all getting comfortable having these conversations.
21:21
Nicole Laino: I think they're being more accepted on a wider level now to recognize that we have stuff and we want to live a more free life.
21:30
Nicole Laino: And freedom comes from security and safety in our body.
21:34
Jessica Baum : And if we didn't get enough of secure holding when were little, we walk around the world feeling scared and anxious.
21:42
Jessica Baum : And so we must heal that by re experiencing safety and security and re internalizing that as inner anchors.
21:51
Nicole Laino: Yeah.
21:51
Nicole Laino: I look at my husband, and he has very secure attachment for the most part.
21:57
Nicole Laino: Like, he's just sort of a grounded guy, good dude.
22:01
Nicole Laino: No one's perfect, you know, I'm not saying that he's Mr.
22:03
Nicole Laino: Perfect, but he just has a sense of self.
22:05
Nicole Laino: And I think that his parents, you know, gave him what he needed throughout his life.
22:10
Nicole Laino: And my parents had stuff going on, you know, largely my father and I look at how my husband has allowed me to find safety in my home, in my body, in my life.
22:25
Nicole Laino: And so much of that is physical touch.
22:27
Nicole Laino: So much of that is just, you know, like, when I have a bad day to go and hold him and to feel safe enough to say, you know, I'm feeling scared right now.
22:38
Nicole Laino: I'm feeling what I'm feeling right now.
22:40
Nicole Laino: And to feel that method with understanding and love and acceptance versus, you know, feeling like you shouldn't feel that way.
22:50
Nicole Laino: Buck up.
22:51
Nicole Laino: You know, that's why when I've gone through the attachment styles, I'm like, I feel like I've had moments with all of them.
22:57
Nicole Laino: I've had times with all of them.
22:59
Nicole Laino: What is it that you find most common with people as they're going through this journey?
23:05
Nicole Laino: Because I know that people are listening to this show right now, and they're listening to us talking about and they're trying to figure out, where do they start with this.
23:12
Nicole Laino: Obviously, your book is going to take them through all of it, but, you know, and again, the book is called Safe.
23:16
Nicole Laino: What if somebody is sitting alone in their home?
23:20
Nicole Laino: What if somebody actually feels alone because you were saying physically having another nervous system to help regulate you?
23:27
Nicole Laino: What if they don't feel like they have that?
23:30
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I mean, so that's a problem in our culture and society.
23:34
Jessica Baum : And I talk about that in order to heal early attachment wounds, what was wounded in relationship needs to be healed in relationship.
23:42
Jessica Baum : And so I'd be misleading your audience if I said, you can buy my book and all the healing in the book.
23:50
Jessica Baum : You know, you can heal yourself in your apartment alone.
23:52
Jessica Baum : That is just simply not how the science works.
23:56
Jessica Baum : And so I talk about finding your anchors in the book, and I talk about what you need.
24:01
Jessica Baum : And it doesn't necessarily need to be a therapist or a coach, but it needs to be a person in your life who is nonjudgmental, who can hold space.
24:11
Jessica Baum : I talk about the science of what holding space really means through nervous system holding and can hold space for you as you step into this work, and that you need to have these disconfirming experiences.
24:23
Jessica Baum : You need to have people in place in order to heal very early attachment wounds.
24:29
Jessica Baum : You Might be able to heal later wounds a little bit more with inner child work as you get further down in the work.
24:34
Jessica Baum : But the earlier wounds have to be experienced by another nervous system in order to move them.
24:41
Jessica Baum : And I think, you know a lot of people, you know, I write self help books and it's like we live in a world where it's like help ourselves.
24:47
Jessica Baum : The truth is like true healing happens when we have true interdependency like what you described with your husband.
24:54
Jessica Baum : He is secure enough for you to have internalized some security within you.
25:00
Jessica Baum : You don't need to do it in a romantic partner.
25:02
Jessica Baum : I actually did a lot of my healing with a therapist and I also have friends and clients who find anchors.
25:10
Jessica Baum : And if you go through your Rolodex, I talk about in the book how to co anchor for people so that you can do this work with other people.
25:17
Jessica Baum : If they're not too dysregulated, you can find co anchors.
25:21
Jessica Baum : But the healing is in the sharing and the re experiencing and the getting in touch with your body and the somatic work.
25:29
Jessica Baum : And it just isn't done alone.
25:32
Jessica Baum : You just can't really do it alone.
25:34
Nicole Laino: Yeah, I have found, and I don't know if this resonates for you, but I've found sometimes in my own practice, like with the clients that I work with, some people feel so alone that they can't see the potential for connection around them.
25:50
Nicole Laino: And they're not exercising the opportunities for connection because the wound is so deep and taking that first step can be so hard and feel so terrifying, honestly.
26:03
Nicole Laino: And I noticed that I use human design to kind of help me deliver the message and of what maybe someone needs to hear.
26:11
Nicole Laino: So like you're a 2 4.
26:13
Nicole Laino: Pure generator is what we call it.
26:14
Nicole Laino: And the 24 is like your profile.
26:17
Nicole Laino: And yeah, then generators.
26:20
Nicole Laino: Two fours are generally, you know, they tend to keep to themselves as a personality type, meaning they're the hermit.
26:27
Nicole Laino: They kind of get energy through sort of their alone time.
26:30
Nicole Laino: But on the opposite side we have a four where connection is necessary.
26:34
Nicole Laino: They are social beings, but it tends to be more of like an unconscious thing, this social connection.
26:40
Nicole Laino: They know they need it, but their outward personality sort of says, like, now I'll just stay home.
26:44
Nicole Laino: But the four, every line, every number has kind of a shadow to it.
26:49
Nicole Laino: And the four shadow, the wound of the four is abandonment, is this feeling of being abandoned.
26:55
Nicole Laino: And that cuts so deep.
26:56
Nicole Laino: We can all have an abandonment wound.
26:58
Nicole Laino: But for a four to have one, it goes against.
27:01
Nicole Laino: Opportunities come through people.
27:03
Nicole Laino: Opportunities come through trusting People and trusting that they will help you.
27:08
Nicole Laino: And if that fundamental is broken, then that wound cuts so deep because it feels so core to them.
27:15
Nicole Laino: And I find that it can be very difficult for a lot of them to trust again and to lean on communities or on safe spaces.
27:25
Nicole Laino: What do you do if you find a client or a patient who is resistant to making those connections?
27:34
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I don't know if that actually describes me.
27:37
Jessica Baum : Believe it or not, I think I am actually really good at reaching out.
27:40
Jessica Baum : But it does describe more of an avoidant attachment, I would say someone who wants connection badly but really struggles with the vulnerability of reaching out.
27:52
Jessica Baum : And, you know, maybe I've experienced that a little bit in my life, but the truth is, I'm, like, the first one to raise my hand and say, I, like, need help.
28:01
Jessica Baum : So I don't know.
28:02
Nicole Laino: You know, that's a high expression of this.
28:05
Nicole Laino: You know, that's someone who's in a good place.
28:09
Nicole Laino: It gives us a mechanism to say, this is what a shadow expression looks like, and this is what a.
28:13
Nicole Laino: A higher expression looks like.
28:14
Nicole Laino: And where do you fall on that spectrum?
28:16
Nicole Laino: And then something to work with.
28:17
Nicole Laino: It sounds like you are in a place with your four where you're like, no, no, I'm good.
28:20
Nicole Laino: Like, I know that people are sort of the lifeblood of my life.
28:24
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
28:25
Jessica Baum : And I mean, people who have anxious attachment as their primary or default, they tend to reach out for help even when they don't need it.
28:33
Jessica Baum : So we're the first ones to raise our hand where people who are more avoidant tend to, like, sit back a little and really struggle with the vulnerability of reaching out.
28:42
Jessica Baum : And I have experienced that too, in my life.
28:44
Jessica Baum : I would say even with some of my clients, like when they're in a regressed place or they're struggling, sometimes they'll just send me a text, and I've experienced this, and I'll just send a text back and I'll be like, I'm right here.
28:57
Jessica Baum : Like, I'm with you.
28:59
Jessica Baum : I might not be in the room with you.
29:00
Jessica Baum : You might not have internalized me yet.
29:02
Jessica Baum : You might still feel alone in this experience.
29:04
Jessica Baum : But just that limited connection helps them feel like they're not alone in this regressed place in their life.
29:10
Jessica Baum : And I truly believe we need that in terms of healing.
29:14
Jessica Baum : We need to know that the people that we're depending on are there, even if they're not perfectly there, even if I'm not available all the time.
29:21
Jessica Baum : Like, I am holding energetic space for you, and I am here with you, helping you.
29:26
Jessica Baum : Re Internalize what secure attachment feels like.
29:30
Nicole Laino: Yeah.
29:30
Nicole Laino: And I think it's important to let people know what the landscape looks like.
29:33
Nicole Laino: Because if this is your first step into this, it might take a little bit of time for you to start to feel safe enough to ask for the help to if you're avoidant, that sometimes people think, I'll read a book and I'll feel better, that will be it.
29:47
Nicole Laino: What do you usually see with people as far as, like, the way that they approach the work?
29:51
Nicole Laino: When you see somebody have a lot of success with healing their unhealthy attachments or unsafe attachments, what does that look like as far as.
30:01
Nicole Laino: I don't want to say how much time, but what do you.
30:05
Nicole Laino: What are marks of success for you where you see people who take to the work really well versus the ones who struggle to really show up for it?
30:13
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I have people who, quote, unquote, struggle and like five years later are in the work.
30:18
Jessica Baum : Like, everybody's just where their system needs to be.
30:21
Jessica Baum : So I never like to look at it through that lens, but I feel like if I am working with someone and we're kind of going into the work, they're usually getting dysregulated, but they're also gaining some conscious awareness of their memory system and actually what it felt like to be little.
30:39
Jessica Baum : Not just a logical understanding, but like, starting to get into it.
30:43
Jessica Baum : An embodied sense of what it felt like to get to belittle their reflex response time changes.
30:49
Jessica Baum : So after a period of time, with enough co regulation and holding space, they can have a witnesser in them that sees different parts of themselves, that communicates differently, that's in touch with their body and isn't as reactive in the world.
31:05
Jessica Baum : So, like, you know, as we're working together, there's just more space and compassion between what's coming up in or out of them and how they're reacting to it and the choices they have when those experiences are showing up.
31:19
Jessica Baum : And so that's a usually good indicator.
31:21
Jessica Baum : Like, I can tell you.
31:22
Jessica Baum : Like, I have one client, I saw her today, and she's up and down in the beginning as memory is coming up.
31:28
Jessica Baum : But, like, she has more space in her body, she feels more alive, she's got more life force.
31:34
Jessica Baum : And so it's a rollercoaster ride, but there's more life force kind of coming towards her.
31:39
Jessica Baum : So sometimes the re experiencing is really hard, though.
31:43
Jessica Baum : I mean, that's why they call it the work.
31:45
Jessica Baum : Like, it's not easy, but if you're listening, like, it's not supposed to be done alone.
31:50
Jessica Baum : And I think I put so much science into safe.
31:53
Jessica Baum : So I think understanding the science kept me grounded as I moved through the work.
31:57
Jessica Baum : And it kind of is this extra support to know that, like, you're not crazy if you're feeling all these things.
32:03
Jessica Baum : This is what's happening in your body.
32:05
Jessica Baum : And the science just helped ground me as I move through my own inner world.
32:10
Nicole Laino: Yeah.
32:10
Nicole Laino: I love that you brought up, you know, that people are where they are, and, you know, you just have to honor and respect where you are in this moment and that the work is the work in front of you.
32:20
Nicole Laino: The reason I asked is I know that there's somebody listening to this show right now that feels like they should be further along, that, you know, oh, I've been healing forever.
32:30
Nicole Laino: It can feel like.
32:32
Nicole Laino: And a lot of times I can find that they've just been battling that avoidant attachment or that anxiousness that they've found another way, another mechanism to kind of avoid or to go into.
32:45
Nicole Laino: They're getting triggered into fight flight, and they haven't progressed enough in the work to be grounded yet.
32:52
Nicole Laino: They haven't felt safe.
32:54
Nicole Laino: And I find a lot of people look to put, like, a time frame on this type of work, and there just isn't one.
33:01
Jessica Baum : Yep.
33:02
Jessica Baum : I think that, you know, if you're listening, what I think you're talking about, Nicole, is that people are like, here I am again, or, here's the same theme showing up, or, how could I have made the same choice again?
33:14
Jessica Baum : And that's happened to me as well.
33:16
Jessica Baum : I don't really know a person that it hasn't happened to, But, I mean, this is essentially why I wrote the book.
33:22
Jessica Baum : Like, we have core wounds.
33:24
Jessica Baum : We will repeat them.
33:26
Jessica Baum : We will recreate them in our life over and over again.
33:29
Jessica Baum : And it's.
33:30
Jessica Baum : It's really frustrating because we will go out into the world depending on our wound, and we will look to confirm it.
33:36
Jessica Baum : See, she doesn't love me.
33:38
Jessica Baum : See, he's too busy for me.
33:39
Jessica Baum : Right.
33:40
Jessica Baum : And we will keep confirming these belief systems of I'm not worthy or I'm not lovable or I will be left.
33:46
Jessica Baum : And, like, it's not manifestation.
33:48
Jessica Baum : It's literally our fears attracting what we know and then recreating it.
33:53
Jessica Baum : And if you're listening, we've all been there, myself included.
33:57
Jessica Baum : Healing it means that we have to go to the root of it.
34:00
Jessica Baum : So, like, if the wound is.
34:01
Jessica Baum : I'm.
34:02
Jessica Baum : I'm going to be left or I'm unworthy, we have to go to the beginning of when did you feel this?
34:08
Jessica Baum : Where do you feel this?
34:10
Jessica Baum : Like, we have to grieve, we have to be with the original experience because that experience lives inside of us.
34:17
Jessica Baum : And instead of feeling it, we're reenacting things that we think are protecting us from it.
34:23
Jessica Baum : And ironically, we end up feeling it again.
34:25
Jessica Baum : So we have to go there and we have to start to be conscious of, like, oh, if my wound is.
34:30
Jessica Baum : I will always be left.
34:32
Jessica Baum : And I keep picking partners that when their trauma is activated, right.
34:35
Jessica Baum : Like, if it's an avoidant, they flee.
34:38
Jessica Baum : Fight, fight, flee.
34:38
Jessica Baum : They're fleers.
34:39
Jessica Baum : So then my core wounds, like, look, here I am again with another person who's fleeing when I'm scared.
34:45
Jessica Baum : And that's because I'm picking people that match the wound.
34:49
Jessica Baum : And then I'm recreating it instead of going back and saying, oh my God, I actually was a little neglected in my childhood.
34:56
Jessica Baum : I was kind of emotionally left by my parents.
34:59
Jessica Baum : No one was really there for me.
35:01
Jessica Baum : Can I go to that original experience with someone and actually be with reality versus picking someone who I think is gonna meet my needs and not bring this up in me?
35:11
Jessica Baum : And unfortunately it gets recreated and recreated.
35:15
Jessica Baum : So I think part of the book is to get conscious.
35:17
Jessica Baum : It starts to be conscious of what these core wounds are, where they live, how they're getting recreated so that we can start healing them so that we're not stuck in quote unquote.
35:26
Jessica Baum : We call it trauma bonds or reenactments, but keep us miserable.
35:31
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
35:31
Nicole Laino: And I think that we're just retriggering our fight flight response consistently.
35:35
Nicole Laino: And so it becomes this, you call like, it's a silent sort of pattern that we're in.
35:40
Nicole Laino: It's a silent.
35:41
Nicole Laino: I look at it energetically.
35:42
Nicole Laino: I'm like, we're energetically connecting to this thing that we don't want.
35:47
Nicole Laino: So now we're going to get more of what we don't want.
35:49
Nicole Laino: I see this with people.
35:50
Nicole Laino: When I think about this, I see people who have this relationship with like social media.
35:55
Nicole Laino: They'll almost.
35:56
Nicole Laino: That abandonment wound will come up because they put something up and they don't get the reaction that they want and they feel abandoned all over again.
36:06
Nicole Laino: And they feel like nobody likes me, nobody's responding to me, nobody's meeting me where I'm at.
36:12
Nicole Laino: Nobody is buying, nobody's engaging.
36:15
Nicole Laino: We've sort of created this world with social media now where if these strangers aren't responding to us in the same way.
36:22
Nicole Laino: I see that in my work where I see people having old wounds be triggered and then they go and they never.
36:27
Nicole Laino: This is where someone is active for a bit, and then they go and they disappear.
36:31
Nicole Laino: And they're always too busy to do the thing that will actually help them grow.
36:37
Nicole Laino: And it's because of an inner wound that they have that they're not looking at.
36:40
Nicole Laino: I always say triggers are gifts.
36:42
Nicole Laino: If you can look at it that way and you can look at, like, if I'm triggered to be curious about what I'm feeling versus being critical of myself or just going off in an automatic pattern, some sort of thing that you've always done, then you can start to find the pieces of all of this and start to get clues as to maybe where it started or to what you need to do to heal it.
37:06
Nicole Laino: You need to feel all of these things and sit with it.
37:09
Nicole Laino: That was what I was getting from that somatic.
37:11
Nicole Laino: Just trauma gets stored in the body.
37:14
Nicole Laino: We have to free it from the body.
37:15
Nicole Laino: We have to feel it in.
37:17
Nicole Laino: We have to sit with it long enough to say, like, okay, guess what?
37:21
Nicole Laino: I'm feeling this and I'm still here.
37:22
Nicole Laino: I'm still safe.
37:24
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
37:24
Jessica Baum : I mean, in the book, I switched the word trigger to awaken or activated so that every time you're, quote, unquote, triggered, you're really awakening.
37:32
Jessica Baum : A younger part of you is awakening.
37:34
Jessica Baum : Now.
37:34
Jessica Baum : They can change the relationship to what's happening in your body.
37:38
Jessica Baum : And as this experience is happening in your body, I never look at fight or flight as a bad thing.
37:43
Jessica Baum : I look at it as your body is brilliantly adapting to something that's scary.
37:47
Jessica Baum : And I can be with this experience.
37:50
Jessica Baum : But there's a good chance that I might not be able to be with this experience.
37:54
Jessica Baum : It might be so dysregulating for me.
37:57
Jessica Baum : I might not have the ability to regulate my system.
38:00
Jessica Baum : And this is where co regulation comes into play.
38:03
Jessica Baum : This is where I'm being activated.
38:05
Jessica Baum : And I need someone else's window of tolerance.
38:08
Jessica Baum : I need somebody else's nervous system to hold my awakening activated parts with me to help me actually understand what they are so that I can learn to be with this.
38:19
Jessica Baum : Because my parents never were.
38:21
Jessica Baum : Because I don't actually have the capacity to be here and to sit in it on my own.
38:26
Jessica Baum : I actually need the support.
38:27
Jessica Baum : And I didn't even know that's what I needed.
38:29
Jessica Baum : So I'm spinning my wheels constantly trying to say, oh, just sit with it, when I don't even have the capacity to have a window of tolerance to hold this.
38:37
Jessica Baum : And I literally need another person to help me hold my internal world.
38:42
Jessica Baum : Because that was something that I didn't receive as a youngster.
38:46
Nicole Laino: Yeah.
38:46
Nicole Laino: So what would you say to somebody who is.
38:49
Nicole Laino: Besides buy your book, which obviously they're going to go, do we have it all linked up for you in the show notes.
38:55
Nicole Laino: So they're going to buy your book, but then somebody who is currently on their own, what would your advice be to them?
39:02
Nicole Laino: And then what would your advice be to somebody who does have access to.
39:06
Nicole Laino: To people, but maybe how do they find the right people to lean on?
39:11
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I mean, listen, I've done so much work in a relationship.
39:14
Jessica Baum : I've done so much work out of a relationship.
39:17
Jessica Baum : I talk about finding your anchors in the book and what that really means.
39:20
Jessica Baum : But it takes one relationship, one healthy relationship that responds to you with their nervous system more in a ventral state of safety that holds your experience.
39:31
Jessica Baum : It takes one relationship to change the trajectory of your whole life.
39:35
Jessica Baum : So it does give hope.
39:37
Jessica Baum : I'm not saying you still need to have a relational experience to transform some of these inner experiences, but it only takes one.
39:47
Jessica Baum : And for me, I mean, I did some work with my partner, but really it was my therapist and it was my mentor.
39:54
Jessica Baum : And then I grew more experiences because my nervous system started to recognize what emotional availability really was.
40:02
Jessica Baum : So I was gravitating towards people who weren't emotionally available.
40:05
Jessica Baum : And then once I started to invite emotionally available people in and they started to hold stuff from space for me, then my nervous system was like, oh, okay, I'm gonna start to recognize this.
40:16
Jessica Baum : And then I pulled energetically.
40:18
Jessica Baum : I can pull in more of that over time.
40:21
Jessica Baum : So I would think that there are support groups out there.
40:24
Jessica Baum : Listen, there are a lot of support groups out there, and there are a lot of people in these support groups.
40:28
Jessica Baum : And some people can hold space and some people can't.
40:30
Jessica Baum : There are a lot of therapists out there that can't hold space.
40:34
Jessica Baum : So really, you're looking for individuals who are patient, who are nonjudgmental, who aren't going to try to fix you, who don't have a big agenda with you, who can meet you where you are, right brain to right brain, and be with you.
40:49
Jessica Baum : Literally be with you.
40:50
Jessica Baum : And when you have an experience of a friend or someone in your life who has the ability to sit down on the sofa and say, like, you're in a bad place, Nicole.
41:00
Jessica Baum : And instead of trying to fix you right now, I'm just gonna be with you.
41:04
Jessica Baum : And it's the being with that is the healing.
41:08
Jessica Baum : And so when we get into the work, it's the Being with that starts to heal.
41:13
Jessica Baum : A lot of quote, unquote, codependent trauma bond is if this person could just act differently, I might be okay, or if I could fix them or heal them or whatever.
41:22
Jessica Baum : But in the healing work, it's not about them.
41:25
Jessica Baum : It's about can we be with you, and can we reboot these parts of you, and can we turn inward and start to do that?
41:31
Jessica Baum : I'm also a couples counselor, and I truly believe that a lot of healing can happen in relationships.
41:38
Jessica Baum : And I am an imago therapist.
41:40
Jessica Baum : And if you're listening and you have a partner and you want to find a great couples counselor, I highly recommend imago therapist.
41:46
Jessica Baum : You can search them.
41:47
Jessica Baum : Imago or emotionally focused couples counseling.
41:51
Jessica Baum : Those are the two modalities that I highly support, but that we attract people who have positive and negative traits of our primary caregivers, and that through doing the work together, we can also become conscious and heal.
42:03
Jessica Baum : But you do need two willing people, if you're listening.
42:06
Jessica Baum : So if your partner isn't willing to do the work with you can still do the work with another anchor.
42:12
Jessica Baum : And I really kind of dive in deep.
42:14
Jessica Baum : And there was a point in my last relationship where were doing the work together, and he decided to.
42:19
Jessica Baum : He didn't want to anymore, and I was continuing to do my individual work, and I just continued.
42:26
Jessica Baum : And two things can happen.
42:27
Jessica Baum : I could have stayed in that relationship, and his behaviors wouldn't have bothered me as much.
42:32
Jessica Baum : Or I decide that he can't meet my needs and, you know, walk away from the relationship.
42:36
Jessica Baum : There's no right or wrong, but you always have the agency to do your own work.
42:41
Jessica Baum : Regardless, my hope is that you can do work within the context of your relationship that's bringing up the work.
42:47
Jessica Baum : But regardless, you can bring that work to another anchor and start to get in touch of what the core wounds are and what the attachment patterns are that are awakening in this relationship and use that as a portal into your own healing.
42:59
Nicole Laino: Sounds like what you're really looking for is it's almost like you're proving to your nervous system that safety exists in another person, that you're meeting these fears and consistently creating this example of the opposite of what your internalized wounds are saying.
43:19
Jessica Baum : Yeah, I think that people want safety, but they usually attract their familiar.
43:24
Jessica Baum : And I think a lot of people, when they first experience true safety, are freaked out because it's so new to them.
43:32
Jessica Baum : And the vulnerability that comes with safety is actually what brings up the work.
43:37
Jessica Baum : So a lot of people say, oh, I want the nice guy.
43:39
Jessica Baum : I want the really emotionally available guy.
43:41
Jessica Baum : That guy shows up or that girl shows up and it's like, I don't know what to do with that because this is so unfamiliar with my nervous system.
43:49
Jessica Baum : This is not what I'm used to.
43:50
Jessica Baum : So I'm going to go to what I know, right.
43:53
Jessica Baum : And so by picking anchors and doesn't have to be romantic partners who are emotionally present.
43:59
Jessica Baum : By understanding that and by doing the work with them, your nervous system is now learning what true safety is, what true emotional regulate capacity and co regulation is, what true attunement is.
44:12
Jessica Baum : And so we need to experience that in some safe container in order for us to say, okay, I need to reorient to this rather than to my familiar or critical partner or critical parent.
44:24
Jessica Baum : A tough high intensity chaos.
44:27
Jessica Baum : All of those things that I keep finding myself in are my familiar.
44:31
Jessica Baum : We need to reorient.
44:32
Jessica Baum : And it's the reorienting that's actually really hard.
44:35
Jessica Baum : And it's relearning what true safety really is.
44:38
Nicole Laino: Yeah, I absolutely did that.
44:40
Nicole Laino: I wasn't able to trust that a guy could be safe for earlier years where you know, I've have those people that showed up and they had it all together and there was always a reason why they weren't right.
44:54
Nicole Laino: But the reason was never really made sense.
44:57
Nicole Laino: It was just sort of like, I don't know, there's just a feeling and it's like, you know, the feeling was that this is not firing with my wiring which says that it should look like this.
45:07
Nicole Laino: It should look like somebody who is emotionally unavailable.
45:09
Nicole Laino: It look like somebody who is kind of backhanding compliments at you and making you feel bad.
45:16
Nicole Laino: That's we go to the familiar.
45:18
Nicole Laino: It's true.
45:19
Jessica Baum : I wanna say something like I have a tag on my book.
45:22
Jessica Baum : So it's an attachment and forward guide to building secure relationships.
45:25
Jessica Baum : But it's also coming home to yourself and others.
45:28
Jessica Baum : And I tell this story in the beginning of the book about this relationship and I like hugged him for the first time and I just felt like I was home.
45:36
Jessica Baum : And he brought me home to my childhood trauma.
45:40
Jessica Baum : And I don't have any regrets.
45:41
Jessica Baum : I still love this person deeply and I have a place in my heart for him.
45:45
Jessica Baum : But he was so much my familiar that I hugged him and I was like, oh my God, I'm home.
45:50
Jessica Baum : Which it feels like amazing.
45:52
Jessica Baum : And then you know, years later you're like, oh my God, I am literally recreated my childhood home with this person.
45:59
Jessica Baum : So like the irony in all of that is kind of like I Think most people I talk to who come to me, they're like, why did I do this?
46:06
Jessica Baum : And it's like, we all do it to a degree.
46:09
Jessica Baum : Like, we all do it well.
46:10
Nicole Laino: Like I said at the beginning, my high school boyfriend, that was basically like my dad, exactly the relationship and exactly the same.
46:20
Nicole Laino: He stuck his finger in all of those same wounds.
46:23
Nicole Laino: He knew exactly where those buttons were.
46:25
Nicole Laino: And there was a reason for that.
46:27
Nicole Laino: A long time where I, you know, you can go through the, like, oh, all the years I wasted.
46:31
Nicole Laino: What if I wasn't attached to this relationship?
46:35
Nicole Laino: What could I have done?
46:36
Nicole Laino: I said no to this because he was in my life.
46:39
Nicole Laino: I could do that all day.
46:40
Nicole Laino: And I did.
46:41
Nicole Laino: I had my pity party and, you know, looked back with longing about, like, what could have been if the sliding doors.
46:47
Nicole Laino: I had chosen a different one.
46:48
Nicole Laino: But when I look at it, I'm like, I might still be in that pattern if it wasn't so in my face, if I didn't see it so clearly.
46:56
Nicole Laino: It took a while, but I was also kind of done with at least a lot of that work of facing it and showing me what the path looked like and where I needed to go in my early 20s, rather than it being, you know, I know a lot of people that are still in their patterns, well into their 40s, and there's no shame in that.
47:16
Nicole Laino: But I look back on it, and I'm like, you know, I could be grateful, too.
47:20
Jessica Baum : He's kind of the guy who woke you up, right?
47:22
Nicole Laino: Yes.
47:23
Nicole Laino: Uncomfortably.
47:25
Jessica Baum : I said to my mentor, for your audience, there's a recording for them about how to move from insecurity to security.
47:32
Jessica Baum : My mentor, she's 82.
47:33
Jessica Baum : She studied interpersonal neurobiology, like, years more than me.
47:38
Jessica Baum : And she's fascinating.
47:39
Jessica Baum : So I want your audience to have that.
47:41
Jessica Baum : But I said to her, like, did I have to go through these hard experiences, devastating experiences, to awaken to my trauma?
47:49
Jessica Baum : And she said, no.
47:50
Jessica Baum : Had you had a really good therapist early on, or you really knew, you know, some of this, the right therapist would have got in there faster.
47:59
Jessica Baum : And so I think that's kind of why I have the book.
48:02
Jessica Baum : Because, like, I don't want people to spend another five years of their life, or even if you know you're in the pattern, it's hard to leave.
48:10
Jessica Baum : And the book explains why it's hard to leave.
48:13
Jessica Baum : The book explains why it can take years to leave, but at least you have the information.
48:17
Jessica Baum : I remember at a certain point looking at my partner, and I was like, he's so unavailable in this moment, just like my dad.
48:24
Jessica Baum : And now I'm gonna start to make this about my dad rather than him.
48:26
Jessica Baum : And I actually detached from the pattern and started to focus on my inner child work.
48:31
Jessica Baum : And I remember him, he was like, wow, you, like, took yourself out of the energetic field of this cycle.
48:37
Jessica Baum : And I was like, yeah, because this isn't really about you right now.
48:40
Jessica Baum : This is about what you're bringing up in me.
48:42
Jessica Baum : And it totally unlocked us.
48:44
Jessica Baum : So I just want people to have these resources so they can get out of these cycles, like you said.
48:50
Jessica Baum : Like, so many people are miserably stuck in these cycles, just with no real understanding of how to, like, break the paradigm.
48:57
Nicole Laino: Yeah.
48:57
Nicole Laino: It's an unconscious thing, I think, for most people.
49:00
Nicole Laino: And even if you're conscious of it, you're not conscious of necessarily how many connections it's making to this thing until you go into the work.
49:08
Nicole Laino: So I encourage everybody, please, please go order this book.
49:13
Nicole Laino: It is called Safe.
49:14
Nicole Laino: You can get everything on Jessica's website.
49:17
Nicole Laino: So if you go to jessicabaumlmhc.com interview, we will link this all up in the show notes so you don't have to remember that.
49:24
Nicole Laino: But I'll tell you that in case you're typing, go there because you have some free resources there.
49:28
Nicole Laino: The interview that you were talking about with your mentor.
49:30
Jessica Baum : Yeah.
49:31
Jessica Baum : And then beyond the label, so the attachment reel right away, so you can start to see the wheel of attachment and start to identify with those.
49:39
Jessica Baum : You'll get those in your email box.
49:40
Jessica Baum : Check your spam, but you'll get them the second you fill out the form.
49:43
Jessica Baum : And then when you get the book, you'll have both that and the conversation is what it feels like inside your body to go from insecurity to security.
49:51
Jessica Baum : And my mentor, I did none of this alone.
49:54
Jessica Baum : I've had so much support in my life.
49:57
Jessica Baum : I've had so much support in creating the books that I have.
50:00
Jessica Baum : I've been so influenced by the most amazing people.
50:03
Jessica Baum : And she's been an amazing influence for me.
50:07
Jessica Baum : And I wanted people to experience her.
50:09
Jessica Baum : So that's why I put that video in there.
50:12
Nicole Laino: That's amazing.
50:13
Nicole Laino: I honestly, like, I can't stress to you enough.
50:15
Nicole Laino: If you're listening to this and you find that you are not getting the results that you're looking for in your life that you feel like you are fighting yourself.
50:23
Nicole Laino: I think there's usually a deep sense of, like, to me, I always knew, like, the mountain is me, the battle is for me.
50:29
Nicole Laino: And if you fall into that category, digging into this work and the way that Jessica's structured this, I don't want to say simple because it's complex, but it's not complicated.
50:38
Nicole Laino: Just the way that she's broken this down.
50:41
Nicole Laino: And to help you understand these patterns in your life and how you can start the process of unwinding them, it's never too late.
50:47
Nicole Laino: And this work will unlock all sorts of windows and doors that you maybe didn't even know were there.
50:55
Nicole Laino: This is the work that started to set me free.
50:57
Nicole Laino: So I hope, I truly hope that everybody buys this book.
51:00
Jessica Baum : I really appreciate that, Nicole.
51:02
Jessica Baum : And I love your story because it deeply resonates and it shows how one relationship can truly help unlock safety.
51:09
Jessica Baum : And you had the other patterns and you were able to, like, redirect and have a, you know, a more secure base now in life, which is, if you're listening, that's, I think that's what everybody wants.
51:20
Jessica Baum : We want to feel like we have space inside.
51:22
Jessica Baum : We want to be expansive and we want to have relationships that truly nourish and sustain us.
51:27
Jessica Baum : And getting to that might be a little bit of work.
51:29
Jessica Baum : So I'm so happy to have had this conversation with you.
51:33
Nicole Laino: Same.
51:33
Nicole Laino: I feel the same way.
51:34
Nicole Laino: And I think that for those of us that have been on both sides of it, been on the unsafe, and found our way on the safe, there's nothing that you want more for people than to have them experience what it feels like on this side of what SETI can feel like, because it's really life changing.
51:48
Nicole Laino: So I'm so honored that you came on the show that you shared with us.
51:51
Nicole Laino: Please go buy her book, go to the website, buy all the things and grab all of those resources that she has available for you.
51:57
Nicole Laino: Thank you for being here, Jessica.
51:59
Jessica Baum : Yeah, thank you.
52:00
Nicole Laino: And thank you listener for making it to the end of this episode.
52:03
Nicole Laino: We appreciate you.
52:04
Nicole Laino: And remember, in order to have an unshakable business, you must first become an unshakable human.
52:08
Nicole Laino: So thanks for letting us help you become unshakable with human design.
52:11
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52:13
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52:19
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52:26
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52:31
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52:35
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