Latest / Beautifully Complex / 274 Looking at Behavior Both Inside and Out, with Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP

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274 Looking at Behavior Both Inside and Out, with Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Because I'm acknowledging my child's sensory needs doesn't mean I'm going to allow my child
0:09
to be a fairal wild animal. And again, parents get to decide kind
0:13
of at what level they're at, but it's not an automatic, like if
0:16
I don't force my child to wear shoes today, they're going to be a
0:19
total jerk and never amount to anything. But I think that's where we go.
0:25
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex Podcast, where I share insights and strategies on
0:30
parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams.
0:36
I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored to guide you on
0:40
the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to
0:49
Beautifully Complex. I am so excited to have Gabrielle Nicolay with me here today
0:56
from Complicated Kids podcast, and we're going to about complicated kids, but specifically
1:02
we're going to talk about behavior and how there's something on the outside that you're
1:07
experiencing there's also something on the inside that is going on for your kid or
1:12
yourself that is creating that outside behavior. I'm really excited to talk about this,
1:19
because I haven't had this conversation before in talking in those terms what's going
1:26
on inside. We talk about how behavior sometimes instinctual. It's not a choice,
1:32
the body just reacts, and I think that's going to tie into what
1:34
we're talking about here. But I'm really excited to have your unique perspective on
1:41
this conversation and hopefully it's going to really resonate with some of our listeners.
1:46
So starting out, let's have you tell everybody who you are and what you
1:49
do. I am Gabrielle Nicolay. I am a speech therapist by training.
1:55
My position at my private practice, which is called Speech Kids, is head
1:59
toddler whisperer. So I, as the name implies, love anybody under the
2:06
age of about three, so fun and the more frustrated the better because then
2:09
we can really get in there and work with the nervous system, which we're
2:14
going to be talking about in a little bit here. But that's my jam.
2:15
So those are my people on the adult side of the equation. I
2:20
also do some parent coaching for the parents of said toddler's love it and so
2:24
that makes it a really fun operation. Yeah, nice toddlers are so fun.
2:30
There's so much to dig into there in that age group, right,
2:32
and to really untangle. It's so fun though, just to I miss little
2:38
voices. As we were talking about before we get on. I have young
2:42
adult kids. You have teen and young adult kids, and I just love
2:46
to hear little toddler voices. Now. It's so fun because I miss it.
2:50
Yeah, and they really you know, it's funny because I think we
2:53
give Toddler's number one. We give toddlers a bad rap, but also we
2:57
presume that they are not and they're not fully formed humans, but we presume
3:05
that they're not in possession of personality, and nothing could be further from the
3:09
truth. If you have more than one kid, you know, they come
3:12
out the way they come out, Yeah, And then you know, obviously
3:15
environment is shaping them and whatever's going on is shaping them and their behavior.
3:19
But they are unique human beings from the get go. And so that's what
3:24
I love about it is they're kind of unfettered by social expectations, by anxieties
3:30
about what they're supposed to be doing or not. And so you know,
3:34
I can really go to town and just kind of strip all of my stuff
3:38
away. Also when I'm working with those guys. Yeah, and we just
3:42
have a good time. I love it. I love it. Where do
3:45
you want to start in the conversation about behavior? Maybe we should start with
3:50
kind of what's going on in the body? You want to start there?
3:53
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So actually I might start in the other direction,
3:57
okay, because often we're looking at behavior and that's kind of the last
4:01
stop on the train, but that's the one that's most easily seen. Right,
4:06
So behavior is immediately visible on the outside. It's what the child or
4:10
the person is doing, and it feels very concrete. It's like they are
4:15
kicking the wall, right, that's the behavior. They are banging their head,
4:21
biting their nails, doing whatever they're doing. But what we often forget
4:27
because then we're kind of and this is normal humans do this. We're like
4:30
judging that behavior. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Is
4:33
this a problem or not? Right? We forget that there is an internal
4:39
reality to that behavior. And what do I mean by that? What I
4:44
mean is there's a whole set of neurophysiological processes going on that is resulting in
4:53
that behavior. The behavior is not existing independent of anybody. These nervous systems,
5:00
the behavior is arising from the nervous system, and so it becomes very
5:05
important then to understand like, oh, wh I'm seeing this behavior, what
5:11
does it mean in terms of the state of the body and brain of the
5:16
person I'm observing this behavior in? Yeah, yeah, what's it signaling?
5:20
Right? What is it telling me? Yeah? And so where it gets
5:25
challenging. I think I think most people are not comfortable, but they recognize
5:30
like an explosive state, right when they see a meltdown. They're like,
5:33
oh, child is in distress right right, And you know, I think
5:39
probably your listeners are evolved enough to know, like they're not giving you a
5:43
hard time, they're having a hard time. Maybe that's like a big reframe
5:46
that we can really dig into. But I think the ones that are tricky
5:51
are the quiet ones, are the I call them the imploders, right where
5:58
the stress level is just as high, but maybe there's no behavior to observe,
6:01
or it looks like there's no behavior to observe, but the behavior is
6:03
actually the absence of behavior exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that freeze
6:09
state or shut down right, yeah, yeah. I think those kids really
6:15
fall into the cracks. They slide another radars. So often because they look
6:20
compliant and we don't realize is that they're struggling. They're struggling inside, right,
6:28
yeah, yeah, And I think we overvalue compliance generally. And what's
6:33
interesting about that nowadays is you know, we say we want to raise young
6:39
girls in particular to speak up for themselves and to self advocate, and even
6:43
for kids with you know, neurodivergent kids to ADHD autism, we want them
6:46
to self advocate. Right, Okay, well when does that start. Well
6:51
it starts when you're a toddler or even earlier and you shake your head and
6:57
know that you don't want to eat that food or or somebody asks you to
7:00
put your shoes on and you say no. That's the beginning of self advocacy
7:06
and self efficacy. And we try, most of us to shut that down.
7:12
We're like deeply offended where doesn't want to put those shoes on? That
7:17
they're not listening to us? Right, yeah, they're not complying. Yeaheah.
7:23
Compliance are so overrated. Yeah yeah, right, Like people have places
7:29
to go and work to do, and you know, we have to sort
7:32
of come to agreement. But I think most of the time, the big
7:36
people, the adults, in the equation are like, no, no,
7:40
No. The way we come to agreement is you agree with me instead of
7:45
kind of considering. And again back to this kind of nervous system idea,
7:48
there are two of us in this interaction, and the way I get you
7:55
know, air quotes compliance is not by overriding your independence or your nervous system.
8:01
Right, I don't control you. Yeah, but that's really hard because
8:07
we would love to control people. I mean, I want to control my
8:09
husband and my children. Who doesn't. Right, would be so much easier
8:13
if that's what it was all about, Right? Was it so complicated?
8:18
Yeah? I want to kind of explore that example that you gave because so
8:22
often I hear from parents it's great to understand, but tell me what to
8:24
do. So if your younger kid, probably let's say elementary age toddler,
8:31
is saying no, I'm not going to put my shoes on, and it
8:35
is about time to jump in the car and get to school. You have
8:39
to get there on time because mom has to get to work on time.
8:41
Right, and there's all of these pressures at that moment. How do we
8:50
look at it more collaboratively and that that refusal is a signal but also get
8:58
where we need to go. How would you hand all that situation with that
9:03
kid? Yeah, And the first thing I would say is, and this
9:07
is applicable to all children, most children most of the time, is validate,
9:16
validate, validate, validate. You don't want to put your shoes on
9:20
right now? That costs you nothing, not even very much time, and
9:26
it can get you a whole lot of cooperation. Because if I'm coming to
9:33
you right so, child has We've made a demand put your shoes on.
9:37
Child has counter demanded and said no, I'm not doing that. We can
9:41
continue in a tug of war, and that is going to be fruitless and
9:45
exasperating for everybody. And depending on how large your child is, and I'm
9:48
talking about physically large, you may be tempted to haul them up and put
9:54
them physically in the car. And I've done it, most of us have
9:56
done it. It's not a great thing to do. But the problem is
10:01
they're going to get bigger and you're not gonna be able to do that anymore.
10:03
So if you're relying on like physical control, that's a losing proposition.
10:07
Okay, fine, yeah, so then what validation completely? It doesn't you
10:13
don't even drop the rope. You get rid of the rope, You're like,
10:15
there's no rope here, We're on the same side. Yeah, yeah,
10:20
right, yeah, I see you. You don't want this again,
10:26
costs you nothing, and then what happens from there is again going to be
10:33
up to the needs of the situation. The needs of the child. Is
10:35
putting on their shoes a battle that you fight every day or is this a
10:39
one off? Is putting on their shoes very challenging for them, and they
10:43
haven't slept well the night before, and right, they might need a little
10:46
bit of grace this morning. There are any number of things that you can
10:50
do, I would say, starting with giving them maybe one extra minute.
10:54
I'll ask you again in a minute. We have a minute. We do
10:58
have to leave, but we've a minute, and I should back up here.
11:01
Validation and stay in calm two tools that you can use, like on
11:05
the front end, right, giving them a minute and then asking them And
11:09
Claire Learner, who I love, calls this two good choices. Right,
11:15
do you want to put your shoes on? Or should I just bring them
11:16
with me in the car? Or should I put them on? You will
11:20
have kids who will be like no, no, shoes and they throw the
11:24
shoes, in which case you gather up the shoes and you say it's time
11:30
to go, and then you know, again physical coercion. I don't like
11:35
it. There are times when you really can't be late for work, and
11:39
maybe we kind of have to at some point. I think the equation changes
11:43
dramatically if we're talking about a kid who's in autistic burnout, and I'm sure
11:48
you've got some stuff on autistic burnout. In that particular case, all bets
11:52
are off. Validation you can do if they are amenable to being talked to
11:58
or at right, and probably everything else is just going by the wayside at
12:03
that moment, yeah, because you're not demanding that they put their shoes on,
12:05
and you're probably not even demanding hopefully that they go to school that day.
12:09
M hm. So that is a I think kind of a special case
12:13
for kids who aren't in burnout though, and again coming back to the nervous
12:18
system, like burnout is a real neurological thing, right, and anything anywhere
12:26
on that spectrum of behavior is also a real nervous system neurological thing, So
12:31
it's not fake. People like to say that like little kids are manipulative.
12:37
In order to manipulate someone, you have to do a lot of frontal lobe
12:43
like prefrontal cortex work, Like you have to understand your motivation. You have
12:48
to understand how to circumvent their motivation. Like there's a ton of stuff that
12:52
Toddler's in particular, but also early on elementary kids they're not able to do.
12:56
That's not how their brains work. So they're not manipult They are strategizing.
13:01
Yeah, right, They're trying to accomplish their goal, which is to
13:05
continue to play whatever they were playing before you said, now it's time to
13:09
put the shoes on. So it's not like, you know, they're like,
13:11
oh, thanks mom for telling me that I have to do this thing
13:13
I don't want to do. Yeah. Yeah. Even kids who are manipulating,
13:18
though, I always ask myself why why why did they feel the need
13:22
to do that, because often there's some anxiety or is there something going on?
13:26
Right, there's something there. But those younger kids, I love that
13:31
you said maybe pick up the shoes and take them in the car with you,
13:33
try to get them on there, because that's what I was thinking.
13:35
It's like I immediately had flashbacks to when My kid was like in kindergarten in
13:39
first grade, sitting at the front door by the shoe cuby in the floor,
13:46
screaming upset about putting shoes on. And it was a sensory thing for
13:50
us at that time, and I had to figure that out. He couldn't
13:56
tell me that, right. He had no idea, uh, that the
14:01
seams and the socks were making him lose his marbles. He just was having
14:07
that right nervous system reaction, I can't do this, Please don't make me
14:13
do this, right, And so that digging deeper is so so important for
14:18
any of these behaviors. There was I was observing a family. I can't
14:22
remember where I was, but the child's underwear was poking into his skin and
14:28
he noticed it. And I think it was more of a visual thing than
14:31
a sensory thing, honestly, because the underwear had been on all day.
14:33
But he noticed it and he was quite distressed. And parents started to say
14:39
to jump right to that's okay, it's been on all day. You don't
14:43
have a problem. Yeah, And that's the very moment, and I happened
14:48
to be there, so I was like, muh, like, hang on,
14:52
you're noticing something about your underwear and your skin. Again, validation costs
14:56
you nothing. Yeah, it doesn't mean and I think this is where we
15:01
get hung up, right, because I'm acknowledging my child's sensory needs doesn't mean
15:07
I'm not going to ask them to wear shoes. It doesn't mean I've completely
15:11
like I'm going to allow my child to be a fairal wild animal. And
15:16
again, autistic burnout different scenario, because we might actually not require shoes in
15:20
that case, Like we get to decide, you know, your parents get
15:24
to decide kind of at what level they're at. But it's not an automatic
15:28
Like if I don't force my child to wear shoes today, they're going to
15:31
be a total jerk and never amount to anything. But I think that's where
15:35
we go. Oh, it is totally, is totally where we go.
15:39
Yeah, And it's hard sometimes not to, you know, because we want
15:45
the best for our kids in their future, and so we're constantly future casting.
15:50
We are constantly thinking about what does this mean about the future, And
15:54
we have to stop it, Like, you know, all I have to
15:58
say to that is it. And I know it's hard, but we have
16:02
to stop because it is not helping in the moment and helping in the moment
16:08
is actually going to make so much more of a positive impact on that future
16:14
than just worrying about the future and trying to force things right. Yeah,
16:18
it's all about thinking about, you know, what can we do today to
16:22
make a difference, because when we make a difference today, we're making a
16:26
difference for every future day also, and this is true of the nervous system
16:30
generally. So in general, complicated kids ADHD autistic actually throw all of them
16:36
in there, right, yep. Their nervous systems have hair triggers, okay,
16:41
which means right that their brains are constantly scanning for danger. And so
16:45
this innocuous request for shoes, I love the shoes because it happens every day.
16:48
It's like, seems so banal, right, it seems so obvious,
16:52
like, of course you have to put your shoes on. You love going
16:55
to the park. But in that moment, that a system, your child
17:00
is responding to that request as if a lion is about to attack, whether
17:07
or not there's an actual lion, which of course there isn't, whether or
17:11
not it's a reasonable demand, which it is for somebody to put their shoes
17:17
on it's not being perceived that way, and perception is everything, So to
17:23
them, that is a dangerous thing, a dangerous situation. So now brain
17:30
goes on lockdown, nobody is learning. And the reason I kind of wanted
17:34
to illustrate that is because what you're saying, what we do today impacts tomorrow
17:41
and the next day and the next day. And come to find out,
17:45
staying as well regulated as you can, in other words, meeting the energy
17:51
level of the situation that you're in at kind of the right level is crucial
17:57
for everything. Yeah, it's crucial for whether or not you're going to be
18:02
able to hold a job, whether or not you're going to be able to
18:03
get dressed, learn math, go to school, talk to another human.
18:10
Right. Staying well regulated and by the way, coregulation is how that happens
18:17
is crucial. And so if we've got nervous systems that are jacked up on
18:21
stress hormones, because every little demand feels like a lion, now we start
18:26
to see, oh we're going to walk that back. We need fewer lions.
18:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's why I love the low demand parenting
18:37
approach, because you know, you can reduce some demands. There are some
18:41
things that you, as a parent or an educator, are getting really worked
18:45
up about. That you can let go of four now, right for today,
18:49
for this month, for this year. You can let it go and
18:53
push it into the future and everything will be fine and actually everything will get
18:57
better. Right. That's what I talk to parents so often about when I
19:02
do coaching with them, is like, what can we let go of?
19:06
We are stacking demand, on demand, on demand pressure, pressure pressure,
19:11
which is stress stress stress, right, how do we reduce that so that
19:15
things are doable? Because when that meter is way up here, things aren't
19:19
doable. The thinking brain isn'taccessible. Kids just can't get things done. And
19:26
the same is true for us as adults. Like, we're talking about every
19:30
human being here, not just neurodivergent kids. Every human being has this autonomic
19:34
nervous system that tells us whether we're safe or unsafe and reacts if we feel
19:41
unsafe. I would love to talk a second, though, about really digging
19:45
a little deeper on what we mean by safe and unsafe because and this was
19:48
true for myself until I started learning about the nervous system, is that we
19:52
think danger means we're in imminent physical danger, but you also feel safe for
20:00
and safe socially, psychologically, emotionally, right, And that's really the bulk
20:06
of what we're talking about here, I think. Yeah, And the neural
20:10
mechanisms are the same, which is what's so fascinating. Right. Heart rate
20:15
goes up, skin becomes flushed, palms start to sweat, like you just
20:22
kind of start sweating everywhere, not in your stomach and your stomach your stomach,
20:26
yeah, you know, scanning for the exits ready to fight or freeze.
20:33
And so what's interesting about that, right, different behavioral demand, same
20:40
nervous system response. But yeah, no, listen, it's true that in
20:45
modern life there almost never is a tiger or a lion around the corner.
20:49
There is a speeding car in the alley. Okay, you know, and
20:52
I know some folks with kids who have you know, high impulsivity levels,
20:57
for whom that was very, very stressful and rightfully so. But it is
21:03
psychological, social, academic, right, performative like sports school kinds of things.
21:12
Even something as frequent and normal as a transition between Jenna and I my
21:22
co leade at Raising work at Kids, where we run classes for parents of
21:26
kids of special needs, and we say there is now, and there is
21:30
the not now. And so if you've got a brain who doesn't perceive the
21:37
not now as being desirable, because we're now is what's desirable, any transition
21:42
is going to throw that off. And so then, yeah, what are
21:45
the strategies that we're using to signal to the child's nervous system, Hey,
21:51
it's safe to leave this activity and go to the next one. That's like
21:56
a whole course slash interview into itself. Right, how do we still transitions?
22:00
How do we get kids to transition? And that tends to be like
22:03
when when I'm talking to teachers, like how do I get them to transition?
22:08
Well, make sure kids are calm and make sure you're calm too,
22:15
and then we can start to work in that field. Right. Yeah,
22:18
that's the issue is we tend to escalate. I call it co escalation.
22:23
We can either co escalate or we can co regulate. Yeah. I saw
22:26
a brilliant Instagram reel recently about that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Like
22:32
if we come into the situation matching the intensity which our body does automatically,
22:41
then we are only escalating. We're adding fuel to that kid's fire and we
22:48
are making it bigger. But if we can come in with some semblance of
22:52
calm, right. I think we over use the word calm when we're regulated.
22:56
It's not always calm. It's matching the energy of the situation, as
23:00
you had said earlier. But we have to come in in the way that
23:04
we want that kid to be experiencing that moment. You know, I was
23:10
definitely the parent who did this before I knew better now looking back. It's
23:15
like such common sense and it makes me laugh every time I think about it.
23:18
But when your kid is having a hard time, they're maybe you know,
23:22
saying not nice things, you are yelling or throwing things, whatever,
23:26
And you come in and you start yelling at them and saying not nice things
23:30
to them, what are you teaching? Right, Like, you're showing them
23:36
that that's how you deal with frustration and anger. You're reinforcing what they're doing.
23:42
It's like such common sense right when you think about it, But we
23:45
don't think about it because we're taught to just force compliance and be in control.
23:52
Yeah, it's like, yeah, but if I don't teach them whose
23:55
boss, then they're not going to understand their place. And it totally is.
24:00
Yes, a control based might makes right approach which nobody would say that
24:07
they very few people would say that they want to use with their child.
24:11
Very few people would say I would like to teach my child how to be
24:15
a bully, right, or a terrible boss. And yet that's what we're
24:21
doing, and let's give ourselves some grace. We're doing that because that's how
24:25
our parents did it, and that's how their parents did it. And you
24:27
know, through time immemorial. I mean, you know, child development as
24:32
a field is like what sixty years old if that, I don't know,
24:37
maybe a hundred maybe, Yeah, So you know this in the span of
24:41
human history, Like we're just now understanding this idea that like children are people
24:47
with opinions and needs and valid desires and wants. That doesn't mean they get
24:52
to run the show. Right. We don't let toddlers run around the house
24:56
with a knife, but we do let them run around the house. And
24:59
we should. Yeah. Yeah, so because plays so important too, And
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code complex com p l e X. I think like just sort of relaxing.
27:00
That's what I think about, is like if you can just relax and
27:04
be that parent who is more relaxed and not so tangled up and stressed out
27:11
about the way you're parenting. Even like we are all human beings, we
27:15
all make mistakes, even those of us who work and help other parents,
27:21
we still are reactive. We still aren't always relaxed or calm or you know,
27:26
not worrying about the future as much as today and all these things right,
27:32
and so you know, it takes practice, it takes work, It
27:36
takes really just setting the intention. I think that's where it starts. I
27:41
want to show up differently, so I'm going to start to shift. Yeah.
27:47
I think the other piece of that, and the reason we get tripped
27:49
up so much is we've not been educated in the idea that it is completely
27:57
normal and expected to experience it's unpleasant emotion from time to time. It's normal
28:03
to feel embarrassed if your child is having a meltdown in the line at target.
28:10
But that doesn't mean we solve for embarrassment by yelling at our kid.
28:15
Yes, right, emotions are to be experienced both by our children and ourselves,
28:21
and we're not particularly good at that because there is no emotional literacy curriculum.
28:26
There was no emotional literacy curriculum when we were kids, and now it's
28:29
coming, which is fantastic. But we don't have to solve for our own
28:33
discomfort by putting it off on somebody else. I interviewed them Debbor Browse for
28:38
the podcast, and she called it it was genius, an emotional hot potato,
28:45
right, and it's like here you go, I don't want this,
28:48
you take it. I love that yeah, yeah yeah, And so often
28:52
it's like it spews out, like it is just like here, here you
28:56
go, Like it just happens. I'm tossing it somewhere else. I can't
29:00
hold it. It's too hot, it's too uncomfortable. Yeah. Because if
29:03
you change your behavior, maybe I won't have to feel this feeling. Mm
29:06
hmmm, Right, if you put your shoes on, I won't feel mad
29:10
or rushed or stressed. Yeah, you can feel mad or rush and stressed.
29:15
All on your own and still stay calm, hopefully. I mean again,
29:18
this is work, right. This is why we have coaches and parenting
29:22
coaches in particular, and we make podcasts to help you to learn how to
29:26
do the things that nobody taught us how to do and we had to figure
29:32
it out. Yeah exactly, Yah, Yeah, it can be really challenging.
29:37
Like I'm not you know, I feel like I and people say this
29:40
to me all the time. Well, it's so easy for you to say
29:41
that, it was so hard for me to do, and I'm like,
29:44
but it took me years to even have it be easy for me to say
29:48
it, right. It took years for me to show up and not be
29:52
reactive that that was my normal, right. My initial instinct was real activity,
30:00
because that's the way we're all wired. I had to really get very
30:04
intentional, very mindful, and keep reminding myself the phrase that you said earlier.
30:11
It was my mantra for years. My kid isn't giving me a hard
30:15
time. He's having a hard time, you know. He would be screaming
30:18
that he hated me. In the grocery store. Everybody'd be coming around the
30:22
edge of the aisle looking right. My social anxiety was like nine thousand,
30:27
and I had to just in my head, he's not giving me a hard
30:32
time, he's having art time. He's not giving me a hard time.
30:33
He's having a hard time. Then I could say, Okay, what is
30:37
that hard time he's having? Right? It just helps you to stay in
30:41
that perspective of kind of brain first, Right, this is a signal what
30:45
am I supposed to understand here? But it does take so much practice,
30:52
so much practice, and so much shedding of expectations. I mean, when
30:56
you have an orchid kid. I use different names for these kids, right,
31:00
complicated kids or kid kids beautifully complex yep, Yep. They are not
31:07
able to go along, to get along. They have a hard time a
31:11
lot of the time. Yeah. And then what happens to parents is they
31:17
give us, like so many opportunities to let go of the things that we're
31:21
holding on to. Right, Like, every day is a new opportunity to
31:26
let go of embarrassment in target. Yep. Congratulations, And you know I
31:30
kind of say that facetiously but also truly, And it's a huge win.
31:36
It's a huge win when you can be a little less reactive with your kid.
31:40
I'm telling you it feels better too. Oh yeah, Can I tell
31:44
you a story from one of our classes. So we had a participant come
31:47
through and one of the things we teach parents to do is to mindfully rub
31:51
their poems together. This is a positive intelligence strategy. And this mom didn't
31:56
believe us and didn't believe us, and then finally tried it, and she
32:00
said she came back the next week she was like, oh, my goodness,
32:05
my child had a meltdown in the line in the grocery store. And
32:07
I stood there and I rubbed my palms together, and I said, oh,
32:10
this is so hard for you. This is so hard for you,
32:15
she said. And I could see everybody staring at me, and I actively
32:19
did not care, and I stayed with myself. And she was done within
32:23
five minutes. That the kid was done within five minutes, and they left
32:27
the store. And that kind of story gives me like, that's the best
32:32
of all of what we're talking about, right, coregulation regulation, nervous system
32:37
first, brain first behavior as an indicator of what's happening internally, and then
32:44
honoring that internal experience by validating this is so hard for you, Like that,
32:47
just like so good? Yeah, how can I help you. I
32:51
say that you're having a hard time. How can I help you with this?
32:54
I mean, I call that the magic phrase's been talking about that one
32:58
for years, which I actually learned from a friend of both of ours,
33:00
Sarah Waitland, who's been on the podcast many times. You know, how
33:05
can I help you? It changes the other wonderful nugget I learned a long
33:09
time ago in the same sort of time frame. You know, when your
33:14
kid is having a hard time and you're trying to come in and be more
33:19
calm in that situation, more level headed and settled. Robert Cox, who
33:23
is a therapist in the Midwest, I think, had him on a summit
33:28
years ago, and he said, the first thing you do when you come
33:31
into that situation as the adult is you just take a big empathetic breath.
33:38
And that is coregulation, that is regulating your own nervous system, that is
33:46
hopefully helping your child's brain mirror that action, and it gives you time to
33:52
pause and be more intentional on how you respond. All from one empathetic breath,
34:00
right, it's magical, it's genius. And I often also add to
34:06
that, be sure your breath feels really empathetic to your child and not exasperated
34:14
because it could go either way, right, Like, yeah, yeah,
34:19
it's something you might have to practice in the mirror before you try it,
34:22
because for me I would have been like, it would have been exasperated.
34:27
It probably was at first, but I learned right how to modulate that better.
34:32
Yeah. Yeah, And the tendency is to like be like, you
34:36
need to take a deep breath, mom, and dad, you need to
34:39
take a deep breath exactly. Yeah, I think too, right, is
34:45
like modeling versus telling our child to do something. They listen way more.
34:51
They they watch us way more than the words we say hmm no, keeping
34:57
ourselves calm, demonstrating that pause, taking that breath. For of all,
35:00
we know breathing like physiologically has an effect on the nervous system. Yes,
35:05
and we forget that's something that simple and immediately available. We're like, what
35:10
app can I buy? You're like no, no, no, inhale through
35:14
the nose, exhale through. We're good. You don't have to complicate it.
35:19
Just slow deep breathing is all it takes. Yeah, So kids do
35:23
not like to be told to take a breath. Actually, adults don't like
35:27
it. Either think about if you were upset about something and somebody told you
35:30
just breathe, which happens, I think to a lot of us with anxiety.
35:35
People who don't have anxiety don't realize that just being told to take a
35:39
breath isn't going to help, because typically we tell people to take a breath
35:45
when they're already over the cliff, right, So that nervous system is already
35:50
reactive, the thinking brain is already dim, and you're adding language and a
35:54
task. It can't be processed and done. So just showing them that breath
36:00
could work, where telling is very unlikely to work, not because they don't
36:07
want to listen to you, but because they just can't deal with the language
36:12
and the statement and the demand because of where their nervous system and their body
36:15
is. Right. Yeah, and there's actually there's really interesting research on like
36:20
vocal frequencies and a stress state which makes them less audible. Oh yeah,
36:25
so you become much less sensitized to higher frequency sounds and much more sensitized to
36:31
lower frequency sounds, which would be like the roar of a lion or a
36:36
tiger, or the pounding of hoofs on the ground. Kind of situation right,
36:39
And most of the time people who are in an extreme stress response can't
36:44
really hear you. They don't understand, they can't process what you're saying,
36:49
but they can't also hear you very well. Yeah, yeah, I think
36:52
of it like Charlie Brown's teacher. It's just kind of this won't won't you
36:57
know? I had about seven months ago, I think it's been now,
37:02
and I was very very anxious about it, like very anxious about it.
37:07
I was worried I wouldn't even do it. And when I was in pre
37:10
op, as we got closer and there's lots of people around me telling me
37:15
what they're doing, telling me what's going to happen, right, and slowly,
37:21
it just went to literally like Charlie Brown's teacher. I couldn't take it
37:27
in. I couldn't do anything with it because I was in total freeze and
37:30
shutdown because I was so anxious. Right, and then I really got what
37:37
we are telling parents and what our kids are going through, Like I fully
37:42
experienced that you do stop hearing it, you do stop processing it. And
37:46
I had to ask other people who were in the room later, oh what
37:51
was I told about? Like afterwards, because I couldn't do anything with it
37:55
in that moment. It's just a really good illustration of what actually happens to
38:00
our kids. Yeah, and then you know, if we think about that
38:05
and again, a sensitive nervous system that's experiencing these spikes in stress level day
38:09
in and day out, and we as parents, we as therapists. I
38:14
mean, this is something I tell my therapists all the time. Your first
38:16
job, when you come in the room, you got to use your spidy
38:21
sense to see what the mood is, because if we're too high or too
38:24
low, then I can have the best you know, speech therapy session planned
38:30
in the world. It's all going out the window if you're not able to
38:34
access me as a human. So that's why I you know, when I
38:37
say toddler whisper, I'm connecting nervous system to nervous system. And there's a
38:45
guy who wrote the book selfreg Shenkar. He talks about the nervous system between
38:51
caregivers and children, mostly parents, as being the umbilical cord on Wi Fi,
38:55
which I think is genius. But even as a therapist, it's my
39:00
job to go in that room and kind of like if you think about Avatar
39:05
you know, they hook into the tree, Like I got a hook into
39:07
that child's nervous system and see where we are and see if we're going to
39:13
get any movement, and then I can like execute on a lesson. But
39:15
nobody's learning outside of I call it the zone of motivation. But like outside
39:22
of a regulating state, no one's learning anything. Yeah, so why are
39:24
we even trying? Yeah, there's a whole realm, for lack of a
39:30
better word, for availability to learn. I did a whole workshop on that
39:34
before and pulled in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the autonomic nervous system and all
39:39
of these layers that determine if a kid is available to learn. Like my
39:45
own son, when he went into high school ninth grade, everything went out
39:51
the window, like he was just waiting for the bomb to go off all
39:57
the time, every minute of the entire higher day that he was there.
40:00
And we ended up having to do hybrid where he went to your school in
40:04
person for a few hours a day and he did school at home for the
40:07
rest of the day because he just couldn't handle it. And it was because
40:10
his nervous system was so activated in that environment he couldn't do anything but think
40:20
about all the potential danger. It was consuming him, which was awful.
40:25
And we had its school avoidance already since fourth grade, so it was amplifying
40:29
school avoidance, it was sending it. He would go to the bathroom and
40:32
stay there the whole class and text me and beg me to pick him up,
40:36
like you know, just there were so many layers of what was happening.
40:38
It was social, it was physical danger, like lots of kids in
40:43
the hallway and lockers slamming and doors opening and people pushing you into them,
40:47
and you know, all these things. Kids who weren't following directions in class,
40:52
or who were talking over the teacher, they weren't doing the right thing
40:54
right, All of this stuff. When you're already sensitive, everything is triggering
41:00
you. And it's just this huge ball of an ability and just not available.
41:07
His brain was not available to learn. And that's how I was able
41:10
to talk to the school in a way to get that hybrid situation for him.
41:15
I'm like, he's not learning anything when he's there in his butt isn't
41:20
even in the seat half the time he's in the bathroom, Like you're not
41:22
getting any of what the goal is here. We have to step back and
41:25
look at that goal and they have to be available. Oh my god,
41:30
he's so lucky to have you, because I think because also you believed him.
41:34
Yeah, Like we often we do this override where we have a tendency
41:40
to believe our children and then we override it with like no, no,
41:43
no, but they have to go to school, yes, and never mind
41:45
that to your point, he wasn't learning anything. He was in lockdown mode.
41:50
Like that's the equivalent of sending him into battle with no ammunition, no
41:54
helmet, no equipment. Yeah, and expecting him to just kind of home
42:00
and be like, and how is your day? Great? Everything was easy,
42:06
and so yeah, really believing them when their behavior is signaling to us
42:12
that their nervous system is in crisis. Yeah, And I'll tell you,
42:15
school avoidance and refusal is the hardest time for a parent to believe them and
42:23
act on what you believe, because you have a whole governmental system that is
42:30
threatening you, right, Like that's the reality here. We can't just say,
42:36
Okay, well, if you don't feel it today, that's fine.
42:37
If you don't feel it the next ten days, that's fine. Like,
42:40
there's so much stress for the parent in that situation. It's just it's so
42:45
awful. It's really really difficult, and so many more families are going through
42:50
it now post pandemic than we're before. It's just really really hard, and
42:55
we have to make the pivots so that kids feel safe. The whole thing
43:00
comes back to where you started in the beginning. They have to feel safe
43:04
to be available, to learn, to have you know, what we want
43:07
to call good behavior, but I refuse to call behavior good and bad.
43:10
It's regulated. It's just regulated. Right. Anyway, that's a whole nother
43:15
story. I can rant on that. I'm sure I've done it here on
43:16
the podcast before. So but yeah, that whole safety issue, like we
43:22
just keep coming back to that, right, that's the crux of it.
43:24
Yeah, yeah, And I think going back to this believing right that it's
43:28
real. Like I often have to say this more than once to parents that
43:32
I'm teaching or coaching, which is like, no, no, no,
43:36
I know that asking your child to put on their shoes is not dangerous,
43:42
but it feels dangerous in that moment today, not yesterday, maybe not tomorrow
43:47
today to them. So given that that is true, and you do you
43:53
think you can believe me that that's true. Yes, okay, what do
43:57
you want to do now? Do we create safety? Is it by sitting
44:02
next to them for a minute and reading a book? Is it by reminding
44:07
them that they're going to have a really good time at the next thing they're
44:09
doing. Is it that we're going to help them put their shoes on because
44:12
it's something they really struggle with, and yes, they're trying to learn over
44:15
time how to do it, but maybe today's not the day. Yeah,
44:17
it's okay. Yeah, it's okay if your five year old doesn't tie their
44:20
shoes. It's okay if your ten year old doesn't tie their shoes. But
44:23
goodness gracious, do we just get really turned inside out about it sometimes,
44:29
right, because of those societal pressures, and we just have to be able
44:32
to reject them honestly, so that we comparent the kid that we have and
44:37
meet them where they are. And maybe that believing them looks like believing that
44:42
the seams in their socks feel like the end of the world and buying them
44:45
some socks without seams, or letting them wear sandals in the middle of winter,
44:50
right, or you know whatever. There's so much we can do to
44:54
mitigate those battles. We just don't have to battle with our kids. We
45:00
can believe them. I love that. I'm going to use that. We
45:02
can believe them and then help them amazing. Well, I'm sure we could
45:07
talk about this for days and weeks and months, but we are. We
45:13
are out of time for this discussion. But I want you to let everybody
45:15
know where they can find you and your work and connect and learn more from
45:20
you. I have two places. The first one is Speech Kids for people
45:24
in the Washington, DC metro area. That's my speech therapy practice. There's
45:29
a nice like fifty words that your child should be saying by age two.
45:34
If you go on there and sign up for the weekly newsletter, you get
45:36
that nice little freebie at raisingorchidkids dot com and that's our parent coaching and education
45:42
practice. There's also a nice little freebee there you can download a checklist to
45:45
see if you're raising an orchid Yeah, an orchid kid. So those are
45:50
the two places, and then of course the Complex Kids Complicated Kids, sorry,
45:53
Complicated Kids podcast, Thank you for doing that. I always forget yes
46:00
to the Complicated Kids podcast. Wherever you get your podcast, yep, it's
46:04
fantastic and I'm going to link all of those things in the show notes for
46:07
everyone as well, which you can find at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com
46:12
Slash two seven four for episode two hundred and seventy four. And I just
46:19
want to thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and also
46:22
the work that you're doing in the world helping everybody understand the interconnectedness of biology
46:27
and behavior. It's so so so empowering, not just important, it's empowering
46:32
for the adults and the kids. And I love it. I love that
46:36
you're out there spreading the word and helping so many families. And I will
46:39
see everybody next time. Take really good care, guys. Thanks for joining
46:45
me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe
46:50
and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching
46:54
at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at the Behavior Volusa dot com.