Latest / Harder Than Life / 161: Why You Keep Choosing the Wrong Person (And How to Stop)

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161: Why You Keep Choosing the Wrong Person (And How to Stop) · Harder Than Life

• 0:07
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:23
  100 Life Nation, welcome back. Kelly Siegel here, and let me tell you, we've got a powerful conversation today that's going to rock your world. Our guest, Ashley Taylor Malin, isn't just surviving, she's thriving through the kind of adversity most people run from. Ashley is a storyteller, a healer, and an absolute force who has built a tribe of over half a million followers by speaking her raw truth.
• 0:47
  She's walked through fire, overcome trauma and abuse, and come out the other side stronger, wiser, and ready to empower others. You know I'm all about turning pain into power. And Ashley does exactly that. She's the real deal, hosting This Is Where We Heal podcast and featured on platforms like The Dad Edge and Unlocked with Savannah Chrisley. Today, we're diving deep into how to break free from trauma bonding, reclaim your power, and rewrite your story.
• 1:16
  Ashley's proof that choosing yourself isn't just brave. It's necessary. Let's get into it. Ashley, welcome to the Heart of No Life podcast. Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me. So this is a home and home series. We were in St. Louis last week and got to be on your show, which
• 1:32
  You know, we didn't, we healed and we're always healing, but it didn't always be that. It wasn't always that way. So as you know, I don't pull any punches and we're going to dive right in. Tell me what was the exact moment you decided your story needed to be shared with the world?
• 1:48
  Ooh. So when I started speaking, I was speaking to myself to begin with. I was really just, I was going through a divorce and I was like, man, I am feeling it. This is rough. And I just started kind of encouraging myself and that kind of like, you know, resonated with a few people, but I really wasn't planning on building a social media presence of any kind at all. I was just kind of like keeping myself afloat, you know, but when I realized how many other people were,
• 2:16
  were going through the same things that I was when it came to dating after my divorce and realizing all the patterns that I kept seeing come back up in my dating life that were boiled down to me. I created this video and I'm sure you've seen it. And it's at this point, I think it's got like over 20 million views. And I see it every week. I see it every single week on other pages, on other people's pages. Still, this has been two and a half years ago now that I created that video. But what happened was I realized that,
• 2:45
  I keep picking the same type of person. I have been in abusive relationships my entire life. And yes, abuse is wrong. Yes, people shouldn't treat you that way. But I keep allowing these people into my life.
• 2:58
  And so at some point you have to look at yourself and go, okay, what role am I playing here? If these types of people keep ending up in my life, right? The abuse is wrong, but no one can abuse you if you aren't allowing them to. No one can stay in your life if you don't let them stay in your life regardless. So I took a turning point at that stage. And I remember I was sitting in my car and I was thinking about it and I was really upset. And I just, I started talking to the phone and I basically just said, look, like at some point,
• 3:28
  You have to stop letting unhealed people stay in your life. Like you have to take a stand for yourself. You have to know that you're worth more. You have to be the one that says enough is enough and walk away, even if it hurts, you know? And so that was when I realized that video within like an hour, it had like a hundred, 200,000 views within like a week. It was like a million within like a week and a half. It was like three. And I was like, I, okay, like, this is, this is something people need to hear and something I have to work on myself because I'm a big advocate of.
• 3:59
  Don't talk about something if you're not doing it and don't say something if you're not living it. So I watched you on Savannah's podcast and she started off with that video and I hadn't seen it yet. Amazingly. And I was you said you were going to delete it. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad she didn't because it was it was just authentic. I realized something this morning when I was preparing for this this interview was that.
• 4:22
  I know why I like you so much. You are the female version of me. Literally, you've done the work, but way more beautiful, smarter, and I just, that's why I resonate with you. So I enjoyed our time on your podcast, and your listeners get to hear from my story. So I'm gonna share your beauty with my listeners. For the men, I want you to listen to this, because the questions I'm gonna ask her are about
• 4:45
  what women want and what they don't want. Because we did the opposite on her. So I just want to thank you for being here. Thank you for showing up. And I got to download our podcast. And it was just, it was beautiful. Everything that we said was beautiful. And we're going to run it back here. So social media can be a tough crowd. How did you turn it into a powerful space for healing and building your incredible community?
• 5:11
  You know, I didn't look at it as anything other than I know that I felt alone in my own healing. And I wish I wish no one else would ever have to. I didn't do it for views. I wasn't doing it for likes. I the whole purpose that I've always had, I was doing it for the right reasons. And I think that's the only reason why it grew to where it did, because I just was like, I don't care if this reaches 10 people or a million. I don't want to be alone in my own healing. I know that everyone else feels that way, too.
• 5:41
  And I just shared from the heart and I just shared authentically. And I knew that it would get, I'd get backlash. I knew I'd get teased. I knew I'd get made fun of, but that wasn't anything new for me, you know? So it was kind of like, it never feels good, but I did it anyway, because I know what it felt like to try to go down this journey alone and not have any place to go or have people to go to, or have that support system that you need in the process. And so yeah.
• 6:05
  Yo, Ash, I just jumped right in because I know you. Let's unwind this and unpack it and go back. What's your story and why does your story matter? I absolutely know it and I just jumped right in because it's exactly my story. But I'd like you to tell the audience for those of you, those that don't know you.
• 6:21
  Well, I mean, look, we all have, no one had a perfect childhood, right? That's just life. That's the way it is. I mean, maybe there are a few people here and there that can say they had just an amazing childhood, but I didn't. It was rough. I had two very young parents that were still learning how to just be human themselves and very confused and conflicted. And it caused a lot of chaos in my early childhood. And we didn't have a lot of money. There was a point when I was little where we lived in the housing and
• 6:50
  I had lice a lot growing up and I had fever blisters really bad as a little girl. And so I got teased a lot. And I also had my closest brother to me had Tourette's syndrome really bad and super high, like ADHD. And he was very violent and he was just, he was, he was very difficult, very cruel and mean. And he, you know, I love him now he's grown up, he's evolved, but that was really difficult as well. And so.
• 7:15
  There were just a lot of things, you know, that happened when I grew up that I believe shaped who I am. It created me to be super empathetic, super understanding of other people, just knowing what it feels like to be the outcast in a school, knowing what it feels like not to have a whole, wholesome family. You know, my mom moved when I was little and.
• 7:35
  to another state. And that was really hard. And the difficult things that you experience, even as a kid, even though they are somewhat traumatic, but as you process them as an adult, you realize, okay,
• 7:47
  It was hard. It was difficult. And I hate that the little version of me had to go through those things. But it is what created me into being who I am now. And so I wouldn't change it for anything, you know? You said your mom moved away. Did you move with her? Did you stay with your dad or what? No. So once my parents had divorced, it was really difficult for my mother. It was very difficult for her. He had moved on. He had a new wife. And they had a baby and my little sister now. But it was too hard for her, I think, at that time. Of course, as a kid, I didn't know.
• 8:16
  Any of this, I just knew that she went to Texas for a couple weeks and she just ended up staying there. And so that was really hard for me, but I understand it now in a way that I couldn't then, you know what I mean? I, I, I can relate to it now and see like just the pain that she was going through. She removed herself in that situation. And I'm not going to like
• 8:35
  Begin to understand the depths of that, but it was hard for me as a kid. It was very hard for me not having my mother around at an early age and having to navigate a new life with a new family and all of those different things. Talk to me about high school and, you know, from 18, and I want to stop short of 24 because there's a specific question for when you were 24. So walk me through your formative years of growing up and figuring out what the world looks like from 13 to 18.
• 9:05
  When I was in going into high school, we'll say going into high school, that was, you know, everyone's a little bit awkward at that stage in their life, but I was very chunky at that stage in my life. I got teased for that a lot. There was an incident that happened at my first party that I ever went to where some of the older kids did something really cruel to me. So going into high school, I was just teased and mocked that whole first couple of years.
• 9:29
  And then it was about my sophomore year of high school. I lost like 30 pounds. And suddenly I went from the chunky, awkward, all the girls like me, but the boys tease me and make fun of me girl to.
• 9:41
  Now all the boys like me and the girls hate me. They hate me. And I don't know why, of course, but, and that was around the time I met my abuser. That was my first experience in an abusive relationship was when I was about, I was about 16. I met a guy that was six years older than me. He was 21 years old and he kind of groomed me into a relationship and it ended up becoming the thing that changed my life.
• 10:04
  This triggers me because obviously I was reversed, but also I have a daughter. And for all the men that listen, this is where I'm getting to is I want you guys to listen closely. So if you're not healing, you're feeding and fueling into this merry-go-round of toxicity.
• 10:23
  And it's us, our masculine job to end it. And Ashley's gonna talk about it from a female perspective because we all have to come to relationships as our whole. You're whole, you're whole, then we come together and we co-create. It's not we come and complete each other. That's a myth for the movies. So you're 15 year old and you meet, or no, you're 16 year old and you meet a 21 year old. First of all,
• 10:52
  Is my daughter 16 right now? If she dated a 21 year old, there's not enough money to get me out of jail. That's beside the point. But I understand it's different time, you know, so I get it. And there's no judgment. There's never any judgment. If I go across the line, I'm treading very lightly because.
• 11:13
  I too am an empath and I just, my heart is pounding right now because I can imagine my daughter going through this. And that's why you're here because we're going to set the stage so other people listening can also break the chains of abuse. So you're 16, 21. How do you meet a 21-year-old and how does that start off? And was it physically abusive or emotionally or both?
• 11:39
  All of the above. So it didn't start that way, of course. So I had a friend whose dad was, he was older. He was kind of a troubled guy who's an alcoholic. And I'm sure my dad didn't know all the stuff that went on over at the house or he would have never let me go over there. Right. He hung out with younger guys, like the 21 year olds around that area for whatever reason, because they probably because they like to drink. They like to party. They like to go out. They have fun.
• 12:04
  And so I would go to her house and they would always all be there drinking and having a good time. And, you know, she and I, my friend and I, we were, we felt so cool to be around it because we, you know, we're 15, 16 year old girls and there's like these older guys there. And, you know, we just thought we were so cool to be there. And he took a particular notice of me. Actually, I mean, they all kind of did, but he in particular went out of his way.
• 12:28
  And just started making me feel like, you know, comments like you look so much older for your age and you act so much older for your age, making me feel really, you know, important and seen for the first time in a long time, you know. And I really just, yeah, I dove into that. It sucked me right in. I didn't know the signs. I didn't know what grooming looked like. I didn't know.
• 12:52
  You know, that there were predators and I hate even calling him a predator because at 21, it's like, can someone really be a predator at 21 years old? Are they just young and dumb? I don't know. I don't know. There's an empath in you.
• 13:04
  Yeah, right. But I understand. And just to set the stage, everybody, this is – I'm not going to give her age away. You can find it out loud. But this is 20-plus years ago. So it's a little bit different time. And, you know, we can't judge because we weren't her. We don't know. And honestly, I grew up that way. I mean, I was 16 connecting with older women. So I understand. I am with you. It's frightening here. So let's fast forward. We're making –
• 13:34
  decisions that that are learned we'll call them learning decisions that's a new one for me we're going to call them learning decisions because you did eventually learn and heal we're making learning decisions we fast forward to 24 and you've i'm just going to go all the way right through there and you meet a gentleman uh while you're still in college from ireland and and what happens
• 13:56
  Just a little backstory before we get into that, because I think, I feel like it explains a lot to who I became at that point at 24. I proceeded with that relationship with my abuser. He didn't start out abusive. It started off with him just flattering me, making me feel more important, making me feel older, making me feel seen. I got sucked right into it. I lost my virginity to this person. I did. It was my first everything. I got so sucked into that. And then it became very toxic. Then he started cheating on me with every girl and down.
• 14:24
  You know, it just it went from worse to worse to worse until eventually he started getting very physically abusive and controlling of me. And, you know, there was an incident that happened that changed my life where I he encountered me at some sort of event in town and.
• 14:43
  Um, long story short, he dragged me down a sidewalk in front of hundreds of people and he strangled me. And by the grace of God, a group of young guys that were a couple of years older than me chased after us in this incident. And they got him away from me and they saved my life. Like they saved my life in that moment. And I actually just recently, it was like a couple of months ago, I found all of them
• 15:06
  online and thanked them because I had never, I hadn't spoken to them since. And I thanked each and every one of them and said, I want to thank you for what you did because you saved my life that day. And they all still remembered it. I didn't know if they'd even remember, you know, it had been so long. And that moment after that happened, I,
• 15:26
  I knew if I stay here, I'm not gonna, I won't have a life to live. Like if I don't kill myself, because I was so depressed, so depressed and so sick and so trauma bonded to this man. I still loved him even after that happened. I still wanted to be with him. And so I knew that I had to leave because I had no other choice. Like it was, he kills me or I kill myself. I just knew I was at the lowest of lows and my mom came and got me. She actually had moved to Missouri at that point.
• 15:55
  And she said, you're going to come with me. And it caused a holster in my family. You know, my dad wanted me to stay, didn't want me to leave. He was really upset and sad. And, but I left and I moved to Cape Girardeau, Missouri, and I had to start my life over. And it took me months. I couldn't even leave the bedroom that my mom put me in for months. I was so depressed and just sick. And I thought about killing myself in there. And I was just at the worst of worst. And-
• 16:18
  Eventually I healed from that. Right. But not really, because I never talked about it. I didn't go to therapy back then. We weren't, that wasn't like a normal thing. You know, it was just kind of something like, well, this happened and I have to get over it and move on with my life and start over. And that's that. And so that's what I did. And because of that, I didn't really heal the deep seated wounds in me that still needed healed to have healthy relationships. Right.
• 16:41
  I didn't take care of myself. I had no boundaries. I didn't know what boundaries were. I didn't know what it meant to be a high value woman. I guess you could say, I didn't know what it meant to protect yourself first and put yourself first. I was just a people pleaser. I just wanted attention. Like if any guy noticed me, that made me feel good. So moving forward to 24 years old with all this unresolved trauma that, you know, I've
• 17:04
  just kind of buried and pushed away. I, I go on a date with this guy. He's in a foreign exchange student. He was from Ireland. And I'm like, I have this weird obsession with Ireland. So I was like, Oh my God, this is the best thing ever. We go have a few drinks and he takes me to this party and we get there. It's not a party. There's no one there. And at that point I became trapped in the situation and yeah, he sexually assaulted me and I, I,
• 17:32
  I remember, and I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly, but I remember I had to like coerce him to let me leave for, because after what had happened and it was, it was brutal. It was like a very brutal sexual assault. It wasn't just like a basic, you know, I mean, there's no such thing as a basic, but I was, you know, trying to convince him to let me leave because he had held me down and wouldn't let me leave.
• 17:56
  And I finally was able to talk this man into letting me leave by acting like what had happened was okay. By acting like, oh, you know, I'll see you again tomorrow. You know, like acting like whatever had just happened was okay. And he finally let me leave. And I remember it was in the middle of the night. I remember walking home and because I was only, I only lived like a few blocks away from where this had happened. And just feeling like the most disgusting thing.
• 18:23
  repulsive thing that had ever lived. Like I felt so disgusted by myself. I didn't ever want anyone to know. I didn't want a soul to know what had happened to me because I felt so gross and so violated that,
• 18:37
  Yeah, I just thought no one's ever going to know what happened here. And so I dealt with that for years. I tucked that away. I told myself, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to think about it. I'm going to act like it didn't happen. I didn't turn him in. I didn't tell anyone. And for years of my life, I just acted like it didn't happen. And it wasn't until... Honestly, it wasn't until I got married that it started to come up in my life. And I started realizing... I actually...
• 19:06
  I was watching a show called, I think it's called Big Little Lies with like Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman. And there was a sexual assault scene in that television series. And
• 19:19
  it was almost exactly what had happened to me. And that was the first time in years that I had even thought about it. And when I saw that, I realized that was a lot more traumatic than I've allowed myself to believe it was. And that was when I started getting therapy after that, because I couldn't stop thinking about it for, for weeks. And, and,
• 19:37
  I realized I have to process this. I have to process this. I have to process what happened with my abuser. And I did for years. In therapy, I did that for years. And then when my marriage ended, and I started dating again, I realized after a certain point, I was like, I'm still attracting abusive men into my life. And when I say attracting, I don't mean that I was just like, hey, if you're abusive, come date me. But I...
• 20:05
  I kept meeting abusive men and still had no boundaries. I still had no even concept of what the red flags were. I wasn't living in a way that was honoring who I am and what I deserved. And so that was when I made that video was after a really hard moment of accepting the fact that this is what I'm going to continue to attract into my life and keep in my life. These are the relationships I will always have until I do the work for me.
• 20:32
  Until I realize what I'm worth, until I believe that I'm worthy of more than this and I start walking away from anyone who treats me any other way. And that video changed the trajectory of my life. That was when my entire social media blew up and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe so many people could relate to that. And I still can't. It still breaks my heart that so many people can relate to that, you know.
• 20:53
  I just had to take a second. I am, you triggered me. You saw me, the tears. I want to honor Ashley. Kudos to you for doing the work because you said you can't believe it blow. I can't believe that people aren't doing more of the work. And that's why I love that you have the big platform and I have the big platform and we're going to scream it loud and proud because once you do the work, you get to be free. And it can happen at any moment. But to sit here and...
• 21:22
  And do nothing and act like something's going to change. So what point – I want to understand exactly what you did to start that healing process. Because, sister, I did the same thing. I kept attracting all the way up even after I thought I was healed and said, I'm not going to attract somebody like this anymore. And I did.
• 21:44
  Yeah. I developed the tools to be able to go, Oh, wait, I noticed this and stop it before it starts before it gets too far. So the first for me, I did all the all kinds of therapy. So what did you what did you do, though? And how what were the benefits? And what when did you notice it paid off?
• 22:01
  Well, ironically enough, same thing. At that point, I had made that choice where something's got to change in me. And so I started doing the work. I started, well, I got back in therapy. And I just started paying attention to the things that I knew didn't feel good for me in a relationship. But what happened was I ended up actually dating another person after that, even, that
• 22:24
  All the signs were there. And it was like the first time in my life where I was living in real time, both realities, the reality of I'm still attracting this and allowing this, but I know better and I see it. I see the things that I've missed in past relationships now through this person. So it was almost a beautiful experience because...
• 22:44
  I got the chance to be aware of my own shortcomings and my own ways of like pushing off what I knew was right for me while also knowing that I was doing it, if that makes sense. And after that relationship ended, which didn't last long, it was like a three month ordeal. That was when I was like, okay, enough's enough. I've dated enough. I've dated enough.
• 23:05
  Now I need to stop dating. Now I need to stop being in relationship because I have too much work to do in here for me. There is too much that has to be done in here for me. And I'm not going to heal that in a relationship until I have healed it within me. So I took about, well, let's see, that was two years ago now. And I've been purposefully single this entire time in therapy and diving into, you know,
• 23:30
  Who am I? And I had the hardest part was the very beginning was sitting with the darkest parts of me, the parts of me that didn't feel worthy and acknowledging all of the places where I
• 23:42
  I didn't feel good enough myself for something healthy. And when I realized all of those parts of me that were just like, I don't deserve better. I don't believe I'm worthy. I don't feel lovable. I don't feel likable. When I realized all those parts, I was able to sit with those thoughts and those feelings and go, okay, but why? And give them grace. And I think extending myself to the grace and building myself back up as a human being and going, no, actually that's not true.
• 24:09
  You are worthy. You are valuable. You are a loving person. You are a good person. You have every reason to be in a healthy relationship. You do deserve that. And I had to build myself back up. I built myself back up over the course of months of time, well, years really, where every time those negative thoughts would come back or those old patterns would come back, I would question it. I wouldn't allow it to just exist and take over my mind and my heart and my soul. I would go, no, that's not true.
• 24:36
  The truth is, is that I'm worthy. The truth is, is that I'm valuable and I can feel this way and it's still not be true. And the reason why I'm going deep and letting you that you keep going is because fellas, the fellows that listen to this, this is true for men too. Everything she's saying, because I know how I know because I went, I lived it. I went through it. I, you know, obviously I'm a, I'm a man. I'm a big guy. There wasn't the physical abuse, but there was the abandonment.
• 24:58
  the mental abuse, the games, the mind tricks, the narcissism, the belittling. It's different from a female perspective. So this is, the moral of the story is, you gotta break the chains. What we don't repair repeats.
• 25:14
  And God keeps sending it to you until you learn it. And he keeps hitting you over the head. And some of y'all are ignoring it. But most of you that listen to this show and watch this show and watch Ashley's show know that that's not the way to fix it. Now, I will tell you the beauty part about this. This is what I want to make sure everybody understands is Ashley's single.
• 25:35
  She's done the work. Men that listen to show, they do exist. Ashley is a beautiful, beautiful woman. I've met her in person. She exudes love and she's beautiful inside and out. So healed women doing the work do exist. So don't settle fellas. Ladies, I was just on her podcast.
• 25:58
  I did the work. There are many others like me. So say no to all those little toxic dirtbags and narcissistic women and hold out for your person that has done the work. They don't have to be as far along as the work, but they got to be willing to continue to work with you.
• 26:19
  I have a question for you. I heard you on Savannah's podcast that you never even knew the Irish boy's last name. Did you ever find the first guy? Did you ever talk to him again? No, neither. No. I had seen my abuser once, years after that had happened. He was still the same person, unfortunately. And we had a brief encounter. He acted very...
• 26:49
  I don't know. It was a very weird situation. He acted almost like possessive over me, even though it had been like six years since I had even seen him. And that was a lot. There were a lot of alarm bells that went off for me and that. And so I've never spoke to him since. Where I was getting at that. Thank you for sharing that is heal. My brother, you'll hear this somewhere. Heal. It's your responsibility. One day, either you have a child, especially a daughter, uh,
• 27:15
  Coming from me, just heal. Life gets so much better. Having said that, I still have my 16-year-old daughter, and I've always been there for her, and I'm her rock. But there are other that are listening.
• 27:31
  What advice do you give to women? Because we have a vast audience. What advice do you give to women any age that are in a similar situation, that are in what we'll call a trauma bond? They think that's the familiar misery. So much, so much. Of course, go to my page because I talk about this all the time, but like...
• 27:49
  the pain of leaving something like that is worth it. It's going to hurt. You can stay and stay in that pain. That pain will last for as long as you allow it to, but there's not a human alive, not a woman, man or woman alive that is in a toxic relationship that doesn't know they're miserable, right? That doesn't know deep down,
• 28:08
  It's got to be better than this. There's got to be more than this. Right. And we each deserve to be loved, like truly loved, not tolerated, not disrespected, not, you know, like just unappreciated. Like you just you deserve to be loved. There is real love out there. There is true love out there.
• 28:27
  And each and every one of us, as long as we are doing the work and we are doing our best, we deserve to have that reciprocated. It hurts to leave a trauma bond. It's going to hurt so bad. It is an addiction. It's an addiction. You will have to break that addiction like you would any other sort of addiction. It hurts to leave, but it will destroy you if you stay.
• 28:46
  It will destroy you if you stay. So you have to make the choice. You have to make the hard choice. Which path are you going to take? Are you going to stay and let this literally destroy you and steal the life from you? Or will you leave and let it hurt for a while knowing that there is a light at the end of that tunnel? Right? You can start again and you can have a healthy relationship again.
• 29:05
  But the longer you stay there, the longer that door stays closed to the life that you are worthy of. And I say that for men and women, because I actually have clients that are men that have been in abusive relationships too. And the truth of the matter is, is that we only allow ourselves to stay in an abusive relationships when we don't feel worthy of better than that. Even if it's hard to hear, if you don't feel like you are worthy of better than that, you'll stay.
• 29:30
  But you are worthy of better than that. You don't have to feel worthy of better than that to be worthy of better than that. And so I would say that the first thing you do when leaving is, okay, how do I heal now? Like you have to heal. You have to heal. You have to look at the dark parts of yourself, the parts of yourself that have allowed abuse to exist in your life at all. The parts of you that didn't feel worthy of more or protect yourself. The parts of you that weren't willing to protect yourself, right?
• 29:56
  And get to the core of that. And therapy, through coaching, through, you know, finding people online that have experienced what you've experienced, that are doing the work. Like, surround yourself with the type of people that are doing the work, and that will help you, too. And something I want to say, too, before we finish this up here, for the men that are fathers in this chat.
• 30:18
  It is just as important for you to know the signs of abuse as it is for women to know. Because if you have daughters, they're not going to know what they're getting themselves into, especially when they're young. If you, like you, you have a 16-year-old daughter. She's young and she may be the smartest thing on the planet, but she's still a
• 30:34
  has a lack of life experience. So she's not going to know the things that you're going to know. Right. So it is so important for you to know specifically what are the signs of abuse in men that, so that you can see people for who they really are, that she's not going to see. And what are the signs of a woman that's being abused? What are the signs of a woman that is going through abuse? Because there are signs for women that are going through abuse. They get, they become isolated. Right. Right.
• 31:00
  They suddenly they they just they stop taking care of themselves. The light in their eyes starts to drain. You can physically see it. There are so many signs to look out for. So when your daughters are dating someone, pay attention to those things. It's really important because she may not always know what she's going through if she doesn't know the signs herself. So good. Fellas, get get a paper and a pen out right here. We'll have this question. 16 year olds is close as I am to my daughter.
• 31:29
  she would be afraid to tell me anything cause she would be afraid of my relationship. So give me some ways to get people to open up, uh, what about what's going on in their life when they do that isolation? Cause you know what they thought, what's going on with you? Um, nothing. What's going on? I'm fine. So what, what are some ways, put this 16 year old, Ashley,
• 31:53
  hat on and then say, if I walked up, how could I, what could, what are some tactics I can use to get you to open up? Same thing. When I was 16, I kept my abusive relationship a secret. I kept it. I didn't tell my dad because I already knew. I already knew if he knows what's going on, he would never allow this. So it destroyed my relationship with him too, because there were certain points when he would realize that I'd been lying and sneaking around and like,
• 32:16
  not telling him. There was one particular moment I remember. I'll never forget this moment. And my dad probably knew more than he let on, but not enough to know the truth of everything. Right. But I remember I had come home and I just found out that my boyfriend had left some event with another woman holding hands in front of everyone in town and things happened and I was just destroyed by it. Right. And
• 32:41
  I remember I came home as late. I thought my dad was asleep and I had like a little room above the garage so I could sneak in and just kind of go upstairs and do my own thing. And I was just sobbing, just a destroyed, just a wreck. And I remember my dad came up and I was sitting on the floor hunched over and he just sat there with me.
• 32:59
  Insane thing. And he was such a like he was a dad's dad, right? Like protective. Usually he wanted to fix everything, had solutions for everything, wanted to know the details, but he didn't do any that. He sat there with me and he just let me cry. And
• 33:15
  he knew that I was hurting and that none of that was necessary. And I opened up and told him what had happened in that moment because I felt safe. I didn't feel like I was there to get, he was there for me to be in trouble. And so I think with 16 year olds or teenagers in particular, it's there, there's always this fear that if I tell him the truth, I'm going to have, there's going to be consequences, right? I'm going to be in trouble. I'm going to, something bad's going to happen because they're going to want to control the situation. Sometimes your presence is,
• 33:44
  Just going, hey, I'm here because I love you and I'm with you and you can tell me anything. I've got your back, right? Sometimes that's what I think a young girl in particular, they need your presence more than the solutions. And it's kind of the same in relationships too, you know? But just knowing that like my dad loves me more than he needs to fix everything, right? He can sit with me in this moment. And I think that that helps young women open up.
• 34:12
  You know, and from a male perspective, all I wanted was somebody to sit down with me and all care. My parents were alcoholics and they were never around. That's why I got emotional. And, like, all I wanted was somebody to listen to me or somebody to be there for me. And that's why I connect. I love this community. I love the people that I get to meet. And, yeah.
• 34:38
  It's the third time you had me in tears, Ash. This is so good. Thank you for opening up. No matter how much I heal, I still have more work to do. I want to be a better father and a better podcaster and a better educator and a modeler.
• 34:53
  But we come back to trauma bonding and emotional safety. I want to hit on touch on both of those because the trauma bond is, is literally what happens because guaranteed you went back to them, even though you heard those terrible things. So there's so much misunderstanding around it. What's the one myth you'd crush right now, if you could about trauma bonding. People are like, it just doesn't make sense. I don't understand why you still love this person. I don't, how could you want to be with some people? Victims get shamed so hard.
• 35:21
  Victim shaming is so real. Like we assume they're stupid. We assume they're naive. We assume they just don't care about themselves at all. And there's a degree to that that's true, right? But you're not stupid. It's a psychological addiction. It goes beyond what people who have never been in it can understand. It's not just about, oh, these two people get together and he's a jerk and she just won't leave him. It's not that simple.
• 35:45
  Right. There's a psychological component that happens there. Like it is truly an addiction, truly an addiction. And I'm not going to get into the science of all that because I'm not a scientist. I don't understand it, but you can look all of that up. Like there is so much that comes into play with trauma bonding that doesn't make sense to just a regular person. Right. And so I would say, give those people more grace than you want to, because eventually they'll find their way out of that. They say that a victim goes back to their abuser on average seven times. Right.
• 36:14
  an average seven times, regardless of how intense the abuse is. And so that should tell you the power of that addiction, right? Because nobody wants that. It's like a regular drug addict or an alcoholic. They don't want to be drinking. They don't want to be on drugs. They know that it's destroying them. They know that it's hurting them. They know that it's not good for them, but it is an addiction that people just don't quite understand. And so I'd say don't shame the victim. They can't help it. They're not doing it because...
• 36:44
  They want to hurt anyone else. They're not doing it because they're stupid. They psychologically cannot help it. That is their familiar misery. So there was a story, I'm going to brief it, that a lady got kidnapped and was put inside this box. And then when they freed her and they actually, you know, the police found her and freed her. And when they opened the box, they let her out. And then somebody walked away from her. She walked right back in and got right back in the box, even though she was free.
• 37:13
  You can look this up, but that's how ingrained this is. And that's how ingrained it was in you for that. You didn't think you deserved it. That's how I was. I did the same thing. And the thing I would tell you is if this has happened and you're dating all the wrong people over and over and over again, take time away. And what I would do, a little seagull hack, was if I –
• 37:40
  had butterflies when I first met somebody, I knew that was a trauma bond about to happen. I knew it. And I would say, stop, run, turn away, and go away. Because I got a news flash for you, healthy bonds,
• 37:54
  Feel boring. Calm. They're very calm. They're very boring. But it allows you to come together and grow. So again, I want to say that one more time. If you get butterflies, I've heard women term it, there was no passion. And what they mean by passion was no chaos, no trauma, no misery. So please, please.
• 38:18
  If you're on this merry-go-round and you know you are, your friends tell you, you know you are, just take, and she says it all the time, Ashley says it all the time, be in a little bit of solitude, just be alone. Doesn't necessarily have to be, just don't date, take some time. Get away from the addiction of needing someone to fulfill you because that's what it is. Sometimes when you're not quite healed yet,
• 38:42
  Any attention fulfills you, right? You don't care if it's good, bad, otherwise. You just need someone in your life to feed you, right?
• 38:51
  You have to learn to feed yourself. You have to learn to feed your own soul, right? And that's what I had to do. I had to bring addiction of attention. How do you do that? What's a quick and easy way to do that? Well, it's like any addiction. You have to separate yourself from it long enough for it not to no longer control you, right? So for me, it was staying single long enough to fight through the seasons of loneliness, to fight through the seasons of loneliness.
• 39:15
  wanting someone in my life so bad and pushing through those uncomfortable seasons and going, no, even though I want someone in my life, I'm not ready for it. Even though I want, you know, attention and I want companionship, I'm not ready for it. And what's really important for me, and I tell every client that I have this when I'm working with people,
• 39:36
  if you don't know what you want and what you need in a relationship, you will accept anything, right? You have to be crystal clear. You, in fact, I make, it's like one of the first assignments I give people is you sit down. I mean, really sit down, go deep, as deep as you want and write out what do I need in a relationship that is actually going to be healthy for me? What do I need? Not like, oh, he needs to be,
• 40:00
  Six foot, he needs to be rich. Like none of the materialistic stuff, the deep core like needs that you actually need. Like you need someone who is a great communicator. Is that important to you? Because are you anxious if they're not? Like the things that you actually need to thrive in a relationship are so important and get so crystal clear on that, that every time you meet someone that comes into your life, if they don't fit the mold of what you know you need to be a happy and healthy person in a relationship, they're not the right person for you.
• 40:30
  We briefly talked about the Seinfeld dating scale, and I said it all the time. And we forgot to talk about it on your podcast. But you have to be within two numbers of each other for it to work. And I tell people to say, this is what I see all the time. I see women settling. And I said it loud and proud on your podcast. Do not settle for a dusty, crusty dude who hasn't done any work on himself. He's got to be growing. You got to be growing. And then you can create it.
• 40:56
  anything, but you deserve better. And women, I'm going to give you some, because I know, Ashley, your people are going to come listen to this. I'm going to give you a generalization. This is not 100% accurate, but if you're...
• 41:11
  using filters, if you're using AI to make yourself look thinner, if you're taking pictures on social media of accentuating your top half, there might be some healing that needs to be done there, ladies. When I was single and I saw, I scrolled right, that was an immediate, no thank you.
• 41:29
  No, thank you. I am not looking for a reclamation project any longer. And unfortunately there's so many of them when you heal, we talked about this in yours, the dating pool gets very, very small, but fellas, listen to this. Emotional safety is what they want, but so many people don't really know what this means. So Ashley, fellas, get out the fricking notebooks. How do you define it?
• 41:54
  And how has your understanding evolved for it? And how can guys do it? Well, there's a lot to that, right? Because emotional safety, in some ways, it looks the same for everyone. And in some ways, it looks different for everyone, right? But generally speaking for women, women need consistency. We all need consistency. We need predictability. That's life. Like, so when a man comes into your life and he is consistently who he says he is, that creates a sense of safety, right?
• 42:24
  Men that are playing the field, they're not going to give that to you. And that's a sign also for women to understand is that a man who is playing the field, you're never going to get consistency from him, right? What's that look like? Go into that a little deeper because how many women are in relationships right now and the guy is never even not really showing up?
• 42:43
  Yeah, because he can't. He's spread thin. He's giving you and Sally and Deborah and everyone else, you know, his time and attention. So he's sending out a mass text every morning to all of you. So how could he possibly dive in with you and be consistent with you? He's got too many, too many, you know, embers and different fires, right? Yeah.
• 43:02
  which I didn't know that was a sign, but it sure as heck is. But no, I think a masculine healing, I say healing because we're never fully healed, healing man that truly has good core values, it is innate in him to show up consistently. That is who healthy masculine men are, right? When they know what they want, when they know what they're looking for, they are organized and they are structured and they are stable and they are consistent. And that's just the truth of the
• 43:30
  And so those things provide emotional safety for women in particular. And it's really important, like in your presence, right?
• 43:40
  Your presence, there's not even a word that I can use that makes sense until you've experienced it. I've experienced it a few times in my life. I know when a man is truly working on himself and he is healing because I can feel it in his presence, right? There's a lightness about them, right? You don't sense any ego. You just know. You just know. You just know. And I can't really put...
• 44:02
  Pick on me, Ashley, pick on me. You met me in person. I'd like to say I'm far along the healing journey. What about me? Maybe you didn't, but what about me did you feel, to use a specific example, did you feel calm about?
• 44:21
  One, you felt comfortable in your own skin. And that's a, you can sense that with somebody when they come in and they have nothing to prove. Like when a man has nothing to prove, like he just knows who he is. He knows he's working on himself. He knows he's, he's showing up in his own life, right? There's this presence to that where you feel it as a woman. And I wish I had the words to describe it. I genuinely don't, but you just, you feel like I can breathe here. I don't have to prove anything.
• 44:49
  I don't have to accommodate anything for this man. He's content. He's very content. Like when you and I were sitting in the coffee shop and we're sitting there, I didn't feel like I had to be anything other than myself, right? There was no part of you that made me feel like, okay, I have to put on a show now.
• 45:04
  Right. Which I wouldn't anyway at this stage in my life because I'm beyond that. But that feeling can still exist with certain men where they're like, you can just tell they're not quite comfortable with who they are. And then the way that they communicate with other people. Right. Like one thing I noticed and everyone noticed when they met this with you is that there's this genuine kindness in you.
• 45:24
  And healthy healing men, there's always a kindness to them, right? That exists beyond ego where they're not judging other people. And you can feel that and you can sense that and you can see it and you can hear it in their interactions where they genuinely just love people.
• 45:40
  And the most insecure men, they don't have that. They don't have that trait. They're always trying to prove something. They're always trying to be the top dog. They're always trying to be better than everyone around them. And you can feel it and you can see it and you can hear it. There are things that women pick up with their intuition that you can't put into words. I don't know.
• 45:59
  I'm thinking I'm feeling pretty good about myself right now. Thank you. No, I, you know, it's, I wish if people are watching this on YouTube, I want you, I'm going to try to express the feeling of, of, of the healing is it feels so good. It feels that she said at the beginning, the pain is worth it. Every ounce of the pain of going through it and working. And when you come out the other side, you see Ashley's beautiful smile, beautiful face and, and, and exploding. And you see the heart of life brand exploding. And,
• 46:28
  I walked into the studio and it just was talking to a million people. Heck, we were in the coffee shop. The bus lady comes over and says she loves me. And I'm like, you're mad. So if you do this healing, fellas, all of this stuff that I preach about every Thursday, I teach you guys. I tell you what to do. If you do it, this is how you feel. And this is how you heal.
• 46:51
  You have nothing to prove. You just know who you are. And there's a peacefulness in that. That people can feel and sense. God, this is so good. I hope, fellas, you've taken notes. And ladies that are on this, man, just understand that there's a lot of guys out there that are like me that are working on themselves. They do exist. So you're a survivor, a mother, and an advocate. It's a lot to balance. What's your strategy for keeping it all in harmony? Keeping myself okay.
• 47:21
  Yeah. Putting myself first. And that took me a really long time to understand that that's okay. Yeah. That was one of the hardest things for me to finally wrap my head around was that if I'm not okay, then I can't, I can't show up for anyone else. And I think we talked about this too. I had this great conversation with my coach, Jamie, when, and I told you this, where she gave me the example that she had gotten from somewhere else where she said, you can either be a life house or you can be a tugboat. I was a tugboat my entire life, trying to save everyone else while drowning
• 47:51
  And when I realized that, you know what, you're doing the work for yourself first, healing yourself first, putting yourself first, not in a selfish way, but knowing that like, I have to be healthy and whole.
• 48:03
  And when I'm healthy and whole, and when I prioritize the things that actually make me feel healthy and whole, I'm going to make a bigger impact. I'm going to be able to do more. My cup will be full. So I'll be overflowing rather than, you know, pouring from an empty cup. And it's so true. And that honestly is how I, how I do anything that I do is because I love myself now. I love myself enough to take care of myself. Like I'm someone that I love too.
• 48:29
  Self-care is not selfish. You'll hear me joke around and I'm half not joking. I call myself the chosen one as all of you can be as well. Choosing yourself over and over and over again is worth it. And one more thing, and this is really important. I got very selective with who I spend my time with. I got very selective with my circle.
• 48:52
  And that helped me a lot because the people you are around the most truly affect your mental health. And so when I started deciding that, you know what, I only want to be around people that are like how I want to be, that changed everything for me. That's so good. I can't help but I want to go back to some of this abuse stuff. So let's get a little bit deeper on that and drop some truth problems. What's something you wish more men understood about any abuse? Yeah.
• 49:21
  Yeah. I wish men understood that even your words can be abusive. You may think abuse is just slapping someone in the face, hitting a woman. That's not true. Abuse stems from who you are on the inside, right? So if you are vindictive, if you are spiteful, if you are overly arrogant, if you want to make someone suffer, everything that comes out of you is abusive, right? And yeah.
• 49:49
  I think men, a lot of times they discount a woman's experience of being abused because she wasn't hit because no one could see the abuse. Right. And abuse can be a million different things. It's it can be emotional, can be psychological, can be mental. But even those little I've said this in my podcast with the dad edge.
• 50:10
  Those little tiny things that you say out of spite, just to make someone feel smaller that you love, that's abuse. And you may not think it is in the moment, but if you find yourself wanting to make someone else feel less about themselves, that's something you have to sit with and ask yourself, why would I want that? Why wouldn't I want the very best for every person in my life? You should want the very best for everyone you love. You took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to say ladies who have tuned in,
• 50:37
  Men are the same way. We want to just be built up and told that we're loved and we're macho and we're big and strong and that you love. And that's it.
• 50:49
  Why wouldn't you want to build up your partner? If you ever feel the need to tear them down, you need to look inside. I've said it a thousand times. One finger pointing away, there's three pointing right back at you. And to use your lighthouse analogy, the thing about a lighthouse is that thing has solar power, so it's going to light no matter what the weather looks like. So you create that kind of life and you're going to shine bright forever and you're going to be the beacon
• 51:18
  that everybody knows where safety is. Do you hear that fellas safety? It is not easy. And we're going to end with a couple more, a couple more things. Healing. I want to talk. I want to also deep dive into the healing. Healing can feel endless. Take it from me. Do you think it's ever truly done or is it a lifelong process? And how do you know when you're making progress?
• 51:43
  Well, it is a lifelong process. There's no such thing as being healed. You'll never be healed because by the time you actually healed the things that you were working on, new things are going to come into your life that now need healed, right? That's just life. Way to discourage us. Well, I mean-
• 51:58
  But what an opportunity to continually grow and learn because everything you heal from, regardless of what comes next, that's just something else that makes you more wise. It gives you more wisdom. It teaches you. And everything that you are healing from is meant to teach the people and show the people that are just a few steps behind you how to get through it in an easier way than you had to. That's the whole point. And so look at it as a privilege. I get to heal. I get to continually learn and grow and evolve.
• 52:26
  And something new comes my way all the time that then shows me where I stand with how I'm doing, you know? And just to back to what you said, like you start realizing that you're healing by the way that you respond to the things that used to control you. When the things that used to control you no longer control you, when you start going, when you start pausing and going,
• 52:45
  Instead of reacting to things, that's how you know you're healing. When you start getting really specific about the types of people that you let in your inner space, that's how you know you're healing. When you start setting boundaries with other people, even if it's uncomfortable and you know they're not going to respond in the way that would be ideal, that's how you know you're healing, right? Because you just...
• 53:08
  Yeah, you feel it and you see it even in dating situations. Now I've had a couple since, right? In the last few months where the first one, I knew I was healing because I just, I looked at the situation and it was really on paper. The guy was everything I could have ever wanted, except the things that I really needed. He wasn't what I really needed in a partner. And I allowed that to just fizzle out and die. And I was okay with that and it sucked and it hurt, but I was like, you know what? I deserve better and that's okay.
• 53:37
  Wait a minute. You didn't fizzle out and die. You said this isn't working for me. Yeah, I did. I want to make sure that there's a very big distinction. You made a choice and you set a boundary and you set a standard and said you got to be this tall to ride this ride and it was no longer. So I am very proud of you because you have to signal the universe that I will not tolerate that any longer.
• 53:59
  Yeah. It was the first time probably ever. It was like my first dating experience in a couple of years, but it was the first time where I didn't chase that person to, to want to be with me or beg that person to want to be with me. I just looked at the situation and went, this isn't it. And that's okay. First word that comes to mind when you think that, what did it feel like? Oh, I felt, I felt so good. I was like, I'm healing. Free comes to my mind. Free.
• 54:26
  Yeah, I actually have that on my arm as a tattoo. Because, yeah, I finally feel free in my life. But, yeah. Look at your smile. You're glowing. I love it. Now your inbox is going to be blown up with all of my followers. Ashley, would you like to go on a date? Fellas, don't even try to step to her if you're not healing. You better be in the Heart of the Life coaching program. You better have gone through everything. Yeah, I'm very slow. Because she will eat you alive.
• 54:49
  So what's, you're clearly just getting warmed up, just getting started. What's next on your mission to empower and heal through the storytelling and all this advocacy?
• 54:58
  That's a good question. Right now, I'm really focused on the podcast and where I can take that. I really want to start finding the people that have done the work and are shining a light in places maybe that no one has seen. I want to put a spotlight on those people. But also just, you know, I don't have any agenda. Like, I just don't. I am just healing and growing and evolving myself, and I just want to take as many people with me. I don't really have any set agenda for what that looks like or how that unfolds, you know?
• 55:27
  I'm not really, I'm not an entrepreneur, which I love. And I want to learn to be one, but I'm just a person that's figuring it out and feels really good about helping other people figure it out too.
• 55:38
  You are truly going with the flow. I have noticed that. I am a very forceful person. I, and I'm working on, I told you, surrendering and allowing God to let go of that God. And you know, God source energy, whatever you want to call it, there's something out there that's guiding us. I know that all the bad things, that was somebody guiding you. You say, hey,
• 55:59
  Don't go this path. So I really, really salute you. I'm grateful. I'm a better person being able to call you friend. And I want to thank you for being raw, real, relentlessly brave. So I know everybody felt this one. I want to make sure everybody shares their takeaways. Keep doing the work and remember the hardest journey.
• 56:23
  is always the one worth taking. Until next time, stay harder than life. Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with, delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit trustntm.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.