Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / Who Pays the Bill? Exploring Gender, Money & Relationships ft. Nikhil Taneja

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Who Pays the Bill? Exploring Gender, Money & Relationships ft. Nikhil Taneja · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Love Matters. I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: before we dive in today's episode, i'd like to request
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: you to please rate and review this podcast wherever you're listening,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: or leave a comment if you're watching on YouTube, because
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: we love receiving feedback from you, and we're going to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: be reading some of the most creative comments and reviews
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: at the end of each show. All right, now, let's
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: dive in.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Today.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about a topic that often
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: remains unspoken even though it impacts all of our relationships.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Money.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: How do money and gender roles show up in our
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: personal lives? No matter how hard I have tried to
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: shake off traditional gender.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Roles, ideas of who gets to be.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: The breadwinner and who must be the caregiver still factor in.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to be unpacking this topic with a
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: very special guest, Nick hil Taneja, who I am also
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: grateful I get to call a dear friend.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Nick Hill is the founder.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And CEO of Youva Media and impact organization dedicated to
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: amplifying youth voices. He's also a writer and producer who
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: uses storytelling to up and social norms and he's the
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: host of Be a Man R, an award winning podcast
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: that celebrates positive masculinity and again challenges regressive gender role. So, Nikil,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: such a pleasure to have you here, and I'm excited
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: to be focusing on also what money means in the
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: way that masculinity is constructed within relationships, because I think
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: we'll have a personal insights that will be interesting to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: unfact together as a woman and a man.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So I'm going.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: To start with who paid the bill on your first
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: date with your now wife?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Great, you're diving right in first question. It was me,
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: you know, I was the one who gave the money.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I have to say that me and my partner my
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: wife have been together for eighteen or nineteen years now,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: so we've been together since college. And when you're going
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: on a date in college, and this is two thousand
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: and six, I don't even think it was assumed that
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: the woman would be It was pretty much clear that
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: if I'm asking a girl out on a date, I'm
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: paying for it.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: You know, things have obviously changed since then, but not
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: as much.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I would still say, how do you think historical context
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: factors into this? Like, you know, when I speak to
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: men about this, it can be quite polarizing. I've spoken
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: on social media about like, you know, who do you
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: think should pay on a first date?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: And many men are like, why do why are we
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: expected to pay?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: And I mean, if I'm honest, I would appreciate it
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: if a man paid on the first date.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I would offer I would always bring.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: My card out, and I would like him to be like, no,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I got this, you get it next time, and not
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: so much because I can't afford to pay. Of course,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I can afford to pay for mines. I do not
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: need the man to pay for the coffee. But I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: think that it is a hot tip to the fact
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: that there has long been systemic inequality that has disenfranchised women.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I pay for my coffee now and then it's okay,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Whereas I think today like
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: men sometimes forget the history and think like, well, men
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: are so entitled they just want us to be or
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: at least that's.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: What I get from a lot of young men.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: What do you see, given that you're interacting with so
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: many young people, if.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: There is a man showcasing his so to speak.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Manliness or marchionists coming to the table saying that I've
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: got this again the way you spoke of it, even
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: in the tone that you said, it's very sweet and
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: respectful to say, hey, I've got this.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: At the same time, the same thing can be said
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: in a.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Slightly more superior way, you know, it can be said
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: in a hyper masculine way.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: We've got like I got this, babe, you know.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Which is something that a woman might actually get offended
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: by that.
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: Why are you assuming that I don't have the money?
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: So it again depends upon the kind of people over there,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: and it depends upon what we are going for.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: It's a very complicated thing.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: There is no clear answer because you know, historically, I
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: think again, for anybody I would imagine is a good
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: intentioned man, we've always grown up being given the perspective
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: that chivalry is important, that you have to, you know,
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: woo the girl, and even the girl's been pretty much
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: told the woman or you know, whoever the partner of
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: the person is, has always been told that you will get.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Wooed of you, you'll be strepped off your feet. There's
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: a knight in shining armor.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: There's someone who's going to come and charm you, and
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: part of the charm is that he do worry about it.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: I've got this.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: At the same time, you know where there is patriarchy
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: so deeply embedded in every relationship right now, being coming
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: into a table and showcasing your money or flexing your money,
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: which is a lot of what men also do. Especially
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: a range marriage, a range marriages, a contact is just
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: that right. Ultimately, it is the fact that I am
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: marrying you because you have a ton of money, and
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: you are marrying the woman because she's a certain way,
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: she looks a certain way. It is a shopping card,
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: it is Amazon. It is like, Okay, how much do
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: you have and how much? What do I bring to
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: the table? What do you bring to the table? And
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not shitting on all arranged marriage I don't know
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: are very different. But you just take a simple look
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: at your matrimonial pages in newspapers.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: What are they looking for?
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But don't forget same religion, same cast.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Of course, there is that.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Plus there is the fact that the man needs to
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: earn a certain amount of money and the woman needs
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: to be a certain kind of fair.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: It's an economic relationship marriage historically.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's you know, I mean, we can there
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: is no right answer, and I think so much of
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: it comes down to intent, you know, and and you
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: know those are things that you can't actually define. It
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: becomes too difficult to come on places like this and
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: define what would make for great intent. It just is,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: you know, there is chemistry that sometimes you have and
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: then it is assumed or understood, and every date has
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: to be different, I would imagine, right like I have
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: actually just dated two people, right, so I don't have
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: that kind of context.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: But the more I.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Talk to young people, the more I talk to my friends,
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: ultimately it comes and clicks.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: It clicks.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: You know, there are times where a woman might say
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: I'm being the man would never get offended. A man
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: says I'm being a woman get offended. It could be
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: the absolute other way around. What are you looking for
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: in a person? And I think it should it should
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: come down to two individual people. Unfortunately comes down to people,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: and it comes to patriarchal context, and it comes to
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: historical context, which becomes a lot of pressure sometimes of
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: what is the right thing to do. I don't know
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: if I have that answer.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: There really is so much to unpack, Nickel, and thanks
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: for breaking it down, just in terms of the sheer
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: complexity of the issue. But back to personal experiences, how
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: do you and your wife sort of navigate finances?
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Are there rigid rules or is it quite flexible?
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Like I see you as someone deeply committed to equality,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and yet just from a practical perspective, we have to
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: structure these things.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: So the funny thing is that when we started, when
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: you were dating, you know, and I was. I mean
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: I studied in an energic Guruchetre and that's where I
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: met her. She was my junior in college. I decided
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: not to take the engineering jobs I landed to jobs
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: after engineering, but it came to mumbey too to make
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: it to pursue my dreams, I joined in the Time
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Times right up front, and I started earning what would
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: be one third of what I would have gotten if
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: I would have taken up the jobs that I got
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: in engineering. So my starting salary was fourteen and a
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: half thousand at h d h in the Sun Times.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: And for the first two and a half years in Bombay,
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: in a city like Bombay, I was only on that
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: right and didn't get a raise because this session happened
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: at that two eight nine, and suddenly for two years
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: I was not earning enough. My wife graduated, went to
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Bangalore for a bit and then she came to Bombay,
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: and her starting salary was way more than mine, right
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: because she started from an engineering background. At some point
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: we decided, at some point, we decided that we were
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: going to stay together. And I was still earning a
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: lot less than her and she was always earning a
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: lot more than me. And I was very happy about that,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: you know, I was very comfortable because I was like,
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: at least they should be one person between us who
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: is earning decently because I am struggling for a bit
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: and uh and hopefully this struggle leads to me getting
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: good amount of money at some point in time. But
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: at the time when I don't have it, you know,
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: I felt very somehow, I felt very grateful that I
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: do have a partner that who is earning a stable
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: income whereas I am going to go up and down.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: Uh.
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  Speaker 3: And she was also completely fine with it, you know,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: and she was very sweet about it. So even though
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: my first my dates in college when the other other
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: way where I was paying a lot of the uh,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: you know, lunch and dinners that we did together. But
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: during Mumbai, it actually reversed for a bit where I.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Was just like, listen, I have the money, you know,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: and she's like.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: I got this, and it was it was really sweet,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: and you know, so there was a little bit of.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: Payback from college, you know, runch just uh.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: And then when I started, in fact, when I went
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: to Yasha, just started finally earning a certain amount of
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: money and you know, it immediately became a little bit
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: more than And that's what the media operates like, right
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: when you make it, it suddenly, you know, you suddenly
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: get those jumps. And again I was suddenly on the
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: other side, very happy about that. But as you know,
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: I was diagnosed with clinical anxiety at that time. I
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: ended up quitting my job and it took a sabbatical.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: At this point of time, Daisy and never married. And
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: the reason that I could take a sabbatical for six months,
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: you know, not doing a job for a while, was
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: because again I had spoken to her that I am
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: not feeling good to my mental health. Are you going
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: to be okay if I take some time off, will
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: you be able to take run the home? And she
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: was obviously very supportive and she said that's not a problem.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: So even though at that point of time she's earning
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: just a little less than me.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: She was more than.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: Happy to run the household for about six months, where
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: I was still not sure what I'm want to do,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: and now the other way around again where I'm at
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: a place where I am now earning a lot more
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: than her.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: And now it's come to.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: The fact that a way earlier it was when as
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: my salary was growing.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: First we were like at a fifty to fifty.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Then it became I'm earning more, so I'm happy to
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: pay more in thirty fifty, thirty seventy, and now it's
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: almost one hundred percent because she's just like, why do I.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: Need to pay again given what you're learning?
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: Like fair enough, you know, so I feel again it
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: comes down if you have partners with understanding of each
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: other and who support each other and wore kind to
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: each other, you know, money does not become a hot
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: topic area, you know it is. It really depends upon
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: who needs what and at what stage it is about.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: You know, it's about where do you.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: Who can take the onus, who can take the burden,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: and at what point in that relationship. Sometimes you require
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: both people to contribute equally, and sometimes one person needs
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: to contribute a little bit more because that's what the
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: situation requires.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: And if you love each other and you have respect.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: For each other, it shouldn't matter, right, It's just that,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: of course, we look at everything from a gendered way.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: So if a woman is paying, we said get afraid
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: and say that, okay, does that make me less of
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: a man? And if a man is being suddenly it
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: becomes like, oh, is this patriarchy?
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: No, Sometimes it's just relationships. Sometimes it's just the two
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: people supporting each other in whatever circumstance that they possibly can,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: I suppose.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, also how the world views you ends up factoring
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: into what you feel you can and cannot be okay
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: with as well, right like were when you were earning
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: less than daisy in the early days, for example, was
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: there any resistance or scrutiny from family members or you know, friends,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, any judgment.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: From the outside world.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Often that factors in right to I would imagine, and
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: in certain cases it very much does. In my case,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: I was the one showing off to everybody saying that,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: you know, the breadwinner in my family is my wife.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm the bread leader. That's what that was.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: The joke that I used to be given. I eat
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: the bridge, he wins it, because I knew that, you know.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: And again there was also came from a certain kind
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: of confidence that I'm not going.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: To be a freeloader.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to just use the money and you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: and then not work for it. You know, I knew
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: that it's a matter of time, and I really had
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: that faith in myself that at some point I am
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: going to be able to earn a certain decent amount
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: of money.
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: But this is a time that I need that support.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know where that confidence came from, but I
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: was very comfortable with the fact that you are supporting
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: me now in a way that you know, I wouldn't
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: have assumed you would.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: But I'm grateful for it.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: And I do know at the time where I am
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: able to earn a little bit more, I am going
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: to do the same for you, if at all you require.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I think the idea of expenses commissary to income if
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: both people are earning, is a wonderful thing. But sadly,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: what I was trying to get at earlier also was that,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: like the foundations of many relationships, and particularly with family,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: involvement as you were doing about arranged marriage and stuff,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: there is such fundamental inequality baked in.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Like let's look at things from the woman's perspective for
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: a second.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Let's say I was in love with some man who
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: was not making as much money as me, or not
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: or not doesn't have a job. Even that the external
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: voice is telling me that's not okay, right, Even if
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: I wanted to provide for him or whatever, there's probably
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: going to be a lot of familial authority figures discouraging you,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: as a woman from making that choice. So like, whenever
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I talk on social media, for example, about how you know,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: like love is about so much more than these parameters
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that society lays out for you, I always say, like
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: billus and other things. But anyway, I really truly believe
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: that money is not going to that's it's not enough.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: If you guys are motivated by you know, fancy things
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: or whatever, and you like that, okay, maybe it will
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: afford you a certain lifestyle, but money is not going
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: to be the secret source of a successful partnership on
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a human level. And yet those voices will I mean,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like we don't get to or follow their
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: heart quite as much as they might were these societal
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: forces not intervening, you know, and so much so actually
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that even in a woman's own ambitiousness for herself, she
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: often has to factor this in, like in our society
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to a great extent, like being married is your duty
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: as a woman, like the rent you must pay to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: society if you want to exist as a woman. Now,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: if your husband is less successful or less rich than you, somehow,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: that is a blot on your report card, And so
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: what should you do? Then you must diminish your successes
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: or downplay them, or not even aspire to be too successful,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: because it's a bigger blot on your report card to
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: have a husband less successful than you, or to not
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: have a husband at all. Then it is to be
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: a very successful woman, as like that gold star on
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: your report card.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Right now, when you think that the psychology of that
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: how stuff is? That isn't it?
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Let me just start by talking about my parents itself,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: right what you're talking about, especially from a man's perspective.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Now I look back, I'd never got time in my
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: father growing up, because he was always working, because his
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: job was to earn, and my mother's job was to nurture.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: And that was the contract that every couple had during
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: that time, that the woman is the nurturer of the father,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: the man is the provide. Now, I feel like I
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: was very angry with my father for the longest time
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: because he was just never around. He was always trying
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: to provide, right, he was always trying to earn. Even
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: when we had enough, he was still earning more because
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: that's what he felt his job was.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: And even when my.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Mother did not need to notice anymore, when we were
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: independent young men, she still decided that that's all she
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: would do.
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: She would just stay around and help us.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: And I feel like it was it was unfair to
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: both of them, you know, and it was unfair to us.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I don't think my mother. My mother is such a
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: credible talent. You know, she's very artistic. She loves she
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: can paint very easily, she does pottery, she does poetry.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: She never got to she never got a chance to
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: flex these skills, okay, or go and make a living
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: out of this, you know. And she never got paid
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: for any of the work she did. Right when my
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: mother had to always take money from my father because
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: what is she earning? Right, But at the same time,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: isn't raising a human being worth a certain.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: Kind of money.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: So at no point should we look at it and say, oh,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: she was taking money from my father.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: No, she was not. My father got to work because
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: my mother was taking care of us.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: And in the same thing that any of the money,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: any of the you know, the any income that she
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: was not making while she was raising us is an
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: income that she deserves. So if that income comes out
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: of the money that my father's earning for both of them,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: that's absolutely fine. On the other hand, again I must say,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: is I looked back and said, why didn't my father
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: not have time for us?
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: Why was he always working? And it was? It made
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: me bitter, It made me angry for the longest time.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Now that I look back, I'm just like, do I
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: not feel that my father would have also liked time
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: with me as much as I've liked with him. Maybe
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: he doesn't know how to articulate that, and he does not.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: Maybe he doesn't have the emotional quotient to be able
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: to say it or express it out loud like many
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: men don't.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: And maybe he doesn't.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: At the same time, I look at him and I
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: feel like, wouldn't he have liked to.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: You know, hold me a little longer.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Wouldn't he have liked to stay home for a week
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: and just spend that time with me because he you know,
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: I see him when we meet sometimes, and he has
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: these anecdotes of me growing up. And it's the same
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: for anecdotes. It's never a fifth one. My mother has
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: ten thousand, right, my father has the same for why
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: is that because he never got time to have the
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: fifth anecdote because he was always working. And I feel
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: like that's all burden we put on men that you
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: are saying. When we say that today that women can
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: both be providers and nurturers, we never say that men
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: can also be providers and nurturers.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: We still expect men to provide. We don't.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: There is not enough of an awareness, not enough of
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: a conversation about men being worth nurturers, like you've said,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Imagine on the other imagine, Lisa, if a husband, I mean,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: if a partner hetero sexual couple gets married and it
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: is and they have a kid and the man says,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: you know what, you go to work and I'm going
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: to stay at home. That is not something that a
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: society can look at and be like Oh that's cool.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: That's not supposed to be cool. You know, it's almost
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: seen as why is the man not working? And this
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: is absolutely talking about in the father of in the
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: context of fatherhood. On the other hand, if there was
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: no child in play, and if it was just a
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: regular couple and the husband say or the man says,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: I'm going to chill at home for a while, widn't
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: you go out and work and earn for it, It's
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: not it is going to be frowned upon, because that
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: is unfortunately the thing no today. Of course, it's the
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: choice of a woman to chi gets to choose whether
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: I mean again, I don't want to make it sound
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: like women have that level of agency.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: Of course they don't. But among those who have that agency,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: you know, they get to choose whether they want to
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: provide a nurture. It's not the same for the man.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not sure.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: I think we all are ensnared by rigid and binary
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: gender expectationactly, you know, I think women have been sort
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: of harm Women and queer people are harmed by traditional
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: gender expectations disproportionately, and so they tend to be leading
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the activism around dismantling them unfortunately, Like you're one of
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the few men I know.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Who's doing the work to question masculinity.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Sadly, so many men aren't even willing to consider themselves
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: capable of being nurturing, or consider being nurturing is something
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: worth investing time and mind space and like doing that work,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: whereas I think so many women are doing that work
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: of like figuring out how they can be financially independent
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: all the things they were denied a possibility to, right,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Like if men's emotional lives have been historically and systemically stunted,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: just as women's financial and professional and sexual agency has
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: been historically and systemically stunted, I feel like, unfortunately, men
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: think this serves them and they don't do enough. They
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: think they have to share their power now or something,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: because women also want to be working and dating and
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: doing whatever they want to, not realizing that patriarchy came
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: at a cost also to men. I know that you
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: know this deeply and are doing all this work to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: transpread the word, but too many men are also, I think,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: often deluded by the history or whatever to believe that
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: this serves them. That like, it is not manly to
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: change and happy. I know parents my generation, men who
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: have never changed their kids, typers.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I know so many who and take pride
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: in it like I would never do that.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: I still go into people's home sometimes, and even now,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: you know, progressive couples, people that I am friends with,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: and whenever it is about, whenever time comes to bring
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: in the snacks, it's always the woman going to the kitchen.
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: And I'm still surprised.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I still cannot believe that we as you know, progressive
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: people in a city like Mumbai, you know, the men
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: are still sitting around when the woman goes to serve.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: I don't get it.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: And so like when you say this thing about women
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: have the choice or agency to both be you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: breadwinners and nurturers or something, I think do they because
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: to a great extent, what happens now is okay, So
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: if you have the choice to work, you're supposed to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: go do your work, be the boss lady or whatever,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: lady bass or boss, you know, like discarding those terms.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: But it was glamorized, right, the per career woman. But
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: then come home and do the unpaid labor as well.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: So you're not actually you're getting this rawdy, you know,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: if we have it all if you do it all right, correct,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and then many I mean today still have friends again,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: same level of privilege, and I acknowledge how much privilege
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I have where they're like my in.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Laws allow me to work.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I'm so great, you know, like applause for these crumbs.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Allow me to work? Like what is the phrase?
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Let me let me rephrase this and try to let
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: me rephrase this and try to explain where I'm.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Coming I get where you're coming from. I'm just also
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: where is exactly absolutely, and.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately some have assumed and I get so worried when
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: that happens.
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: Because I'm like, no, my friend, I am very much.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: A feminist, Let me explain what I'm talking about, right,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: because there is this is about We're talking about patriarchy,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: right right. Patriarchy works in a way where it is
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: it benefits ment but oppresses everyone exact. That's the thing,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: and that's the thing that we don't realize enough. And
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: men are are conditioned so deeply that they can't even
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: imagine a world where they can be nurturing.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about this right now because I have been
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: the other side. And then I was diagnosed with clinical
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: anxiety and then I took a lot of therapy, and
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: now I've reached a place where I realized that me
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: not taking care of my mental, physical, emotional health for
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: the longest time was the reason that I've got diagnosed
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: with mental health issues. And had I been given an
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: opportunity growing up to be a little bit nurturing to myself,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: forget to anybody else, if I had the if I
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: had the understanding or the privilege of that awareness that
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: as a man, I could also give myself love, you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: And my job and my life wasn't just meant to
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: be about earning money. It wasn't just seen as a
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: return on investment for my parents, you know, putting in
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: money on me, punting on me to make sure that
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: some point that I earn a certain kinnd of money
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: and then bring it back to my family, et cetera,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: et cetera. But I didn't have that understanding, right And
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying that, you know, what is happening right now,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: and that's what I see, and a lot of a
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: lot of it has gone into dangerous.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Territory, which I which really worries me.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: The territory being that the conversation that we are having
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: about patriarchy, and the conversation we typically have have about
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: gender right now is that and this is and I'm
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: putting the onus very much also on men. So this
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: is not just a this is not at all a
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: women thing, right It is that you know, women can
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: be anything that they want to be, but men can
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: men be anything they want to be?
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: That's a question.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: And when I say anything they want to me, I
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: don't mean in terms of admission or in mean in
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: terms of success.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's who they are they are taking.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, men run like ninety percent of the world,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: right they are in all positions of power. I'm typically
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: and specifically talking about men having the agency to not
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: choose to do that, to earn a little lesser than
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: they want to, so that they can also have some
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: time offer themselves or to be a father, or to
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: be a son, or to be a husband, or to
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: be a brother, which is not a conversation we are
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: having as a society, and that is damaging, you know, anecdotally,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know what is happening right now, but I
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: don't know if you've also heard of this anecdotally, Lisa,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: I have been hearing so many men who just having
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: heart attacks over the last three four years, you know.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, some of it might be linked to COVID,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: but I'm now hearing about forty to forty five fifty
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: year old men, so many anecdotal things of just them,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: you know, getting heart attacks and passing out, and they
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: physically fit emotion. But I feel like, because emotions are
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: so caught up and we are so tense inside of us,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: that at some point of time, every man bursts, whether
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: that you know, in our parents generation, that burst would
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: happen as domestic violence, it would happen as you know, anger,
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: It would happen as hitting your kids, it would happen
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: as alcohol, it would happen as sometimes even you know,
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: just harassment to others, you know, and it could mean
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: sexual harassment. Because they didn't have any way inside to
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: even express any iota what they were going through.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: And I'm not justifying or you know, men's actions. I'm
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: literally telling you.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: That this is the reason why for the longest time,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: they had so much inside of them and no way
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of expressing what they do that it typically.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: Weighed into evil, negative angry territory.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: And today, while they might not do any of these things,
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: they just keep everything inside. They don't take therapy, they
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: don't go to men, they don't have mental health conversations,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: and ultimately end up just.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Suddenly dropping dead.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: And that's the danger that we have of patriarchy and
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: not having conversations where we also talk about men recognizing
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: for themselves, not just women doing that job, or not
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: just men telling women or women telling women, but everybody
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: telling men. For God's sake, stop just looking at yourselves
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: as providers. Please, for God's sake, also recognize that nurturing
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: is just an important part of any human being.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: It's not just a man of women thing. It's a
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: human thing.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: And until we recognize that, we are putting a danger
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: to ourselves and to society because men will continue being angry,
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: and unfortunately in today's time, because people like Andrew Date
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: and people.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: Who are m A activists.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: You know, they tell these men, the reason you are
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: not getting to do anything else apart from our money
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: is because of women. Because women are the one who
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: are taking this away from you. You know, they are
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: not giving you the opportunity to be somebody else. But
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: that's not true at all.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: You are not doing it the world.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Who do women want gender equality from it's from men,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: it's from each other.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Men have taken it away. But if you have two equality,
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: men also get empowered to be kinder, to be more empathetic,
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: to be more nurturing, to be to have more self care,
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: to give themselves more time.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I think that men themselves, unfortunately, are reluctant to listen
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: or partake.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: You know, how much can the.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: It's so deeply conditioned.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: How much can you tell them they don't if they're
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: not ready to hear.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very much me.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: You know, my brother let me just when I was
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: growing up. My brother was very still is very sensitive, right.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: He had a lot of mental health issues at a
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: very young age.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: He was he.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Was just a sensitive kid. So he had a better
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: understanding of empathy than I ever did. I was not
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: a good brother growing up. I was very My father
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: was always outside, so I assumed the role of a
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: father when it came to my brother, and I was
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: toxic to him. So all the talk of kindness and
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: empathy that I do right now, I was the opposite.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: When I was growing up. I would tell my brother
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: when he would get bullied by you know, older kids,
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: that I would.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Hit the kids because as a young older brother, that's
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: what I thought. My job was to protect my brother.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: And then I would hit my brother and I tell him,
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: why can't you stand up for yourself? Why can't you
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: be man enough? That was the kind of person I was.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: And my brother would tell me that that's not my job.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: You know, they shouldn't be bullying me. I shouldn't have
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: to stand up for it, right. And I used to
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: always look at him and be like, oh my god,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: he just you know what today we call beta man
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: or Sigma man or whatever. I would look at him
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: and judge him and be like, you know, until you
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: grow up, until you have balls, until you're match enough,
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: you will you'll not be able to survive. It's only
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: after I was I broke one day and I was
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: diagnosed with clinical anxiety did my journey of having that
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: empathy start.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: It's so deeply conditioned. Gender patriarchy is so deeply conditioned
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: inside of us, this lust for power. I don't understand power.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: Why are we always what do we get after being powerful?
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: Look at them power, You're missing it. I'm going to
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: go on a yeah, we're missing out on.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: So much love and joy in this world as men
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: in this in this stupid race to kind of be
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: the most superior.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: Being on the planet. What you get out of it.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: How much money is enough money? How much success is
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: enough success? How many houses is enough houses. I know
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: friends of mine, you know, who have bought this sixth house,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: but they don't have you know. But they've also never
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: been able to stick with one partner. They're like, you know,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: late thirties, early forties, they're not getting married because they don't,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: you know. And it's not that they don't want to.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: They want to, they just haven't found anybody because and
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: I know why, because they're spending all the time and
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: just earning that money and buying forty houses.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: Kagarlu Is needs you know. I don't earn at that
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: same level as them.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: But I've had a you know, very successful touchboard marriages,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: you know, many years, and I've been with my partner
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: and I've had a I've had good and bad days
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: in my marriage. But I have somebody to come home to.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: And that is a true joy at the end of
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: a hard day at work, no matter what you're earning,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: coming back home to a person who cares about you,
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: who care who you care about.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: Those are things we don't talk about as men.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: All the men podcasts are just about hustle and about
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: success and about you know, here's how much you need
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: to earn. Here's what you can do to earn the
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: maximount of money. Where is that conversation about that? Yes,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: earn that money, what.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Do you do with it? You are only using it
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: to buy products.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: You're not using it to enhance the comfort and convenience
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: of not just your life, but the lives of the
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: people you love and who love you.
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: Are we having these conversations or I get very like.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Love that you are deeply passionate, And actually, I think
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: what would be helpful also is like we've identified some
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of the problems, but how can we also perhaps try
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: to point people towards the tools or the solutions. Like
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: you said, you've made that journey yourself. I know you
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: said it also took a significant mental health event to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: like jold you into doing the in a work, I suppose,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: But let's say we want to prevent people from having
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: to get to that point before they and most people
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: don't even get to you know, sometimes a massive event
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: can inspire change, and sometimes it doesn't. And you just
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: go back to it. So how can we perhaps point
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: people who might be interested in re examining the unders
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: standing in masculinity with, you know, with practical tools that
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: may be helped you, so.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: That they can step away.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: From some of these pitfalls and hope for a more
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: fulfilling and expansive attitude in their relationship.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: See, I honestly think that the men need to take
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: that onnus right. We have always, as men again put
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: the emotional burden on women to take care of men.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: This whole idea of fixing men. You know, even when
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: you look.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: At fiction, romantic fiction, literary fiction, so much of it
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: is really about the women finding a man to fix.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: You know, I will fix him, I will help him.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I will be the one who care takes for him.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: But we as men need to take care of each other.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: And when I say that, I mean I've always felt
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: this very strongly. Men can go to war for each other,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: but they.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Can't cry in front of each other. I have just
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: think about it.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Have I can't imagine a scenario in which I need
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: to break down and I go to a male friend
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: to do that. You know, I will either go to
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: my mother or I will go to my partner, or
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: if I did not have either of them, then maybe
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: I'll try to find a female friend, because that understanding
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: is that they have a lot more empathy and a
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: lot more softness and gentleness to be able to not
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: judge me. On the other hand, I feel like men
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: are also capable of that. We don't give each other chances.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: We judge each other and a dvance so much that
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: we always feel like I judge correct, then he will
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: make fun of me, which also is true. We have
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: seen that, you know, crying or emotional durists is seen
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: as a sign of weakness among men.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: But we need to change that. We need to change
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: the attitude.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: We need to get to a place where we can
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: create more spaces among each other as men help each other,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: you know, in times of duress, you know when somebody
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: is not going through a phase intron of making fun
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: of each other, just being like, hey, are you okay?
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: Can I do something for you? Can I do you
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: want to hug? How many? You know?
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: We spoke about this on my show Knuckle and I
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: spoke about this is you know how when we hug
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: our mothers, it's an all income, it's an all encompassing hug.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: It's a hug that kind of you know, takes in
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: the whole of.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: The body of your mother. Right, it's like, you're my mother,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: I care about you, I love you. But when it's
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: when you're hunging up fathers, it's almost like tap tap
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: tap up and it's done. We don't know how to
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: have physical intimacy with each other. Men holding hands is
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: still seen as deeply weired. Men kissing each other kissing,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: I mean and literally on the cheeks is seen as
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: deeply weared.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: Unless you are an extremely progressive.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: You know person, it's seen as, wow, there's something Why
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: are you giving a kiss to your.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: Friend, he's a man. We need to break those gender norms.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: We need to create these safe spaces among men.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: And that's what I'm even trying to do with my show, right,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to give that perception that it's two men
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: can sit with each other and be vulnerable and be
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: emotional and that's okay, and.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: That's completely fine. If we support each.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Other, perhaps we will allow spaces for each other, which
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: then we can take to other places. If men have
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: empathy for themselves, then they will also be able to
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: have empathy for everybody else around them.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: So I want men to take that onus.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: I want men to recognize that it is on us
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: to help ourselves and to help other men.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: Let's not put it on women. For God's sake, let's
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: not put it on women.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: I'm going to I know that I've been saying really
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: long answers, but I'm going to give you one. You know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: there's this I met this one kid, you know, recently
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: who came to me, and this kid was He says that,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: you know, I was, I had a girlfriend, and you know,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: I have a lot inside of me, and I was
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I had a lot of emotions, and at one point,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: I just you know, started telling her every day what
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: I was going through. And for a few days she
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: listened to me, and then she just blocked me. You know,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: I mean I just lost her. And then she said
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: that I can't just continually listen to you. You know,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know what to do right now. And you know,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: I felt like I only had that one person, and
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: you know, she turned out to be.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: A and I was okay.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: So then I sat him and through I listened to him,
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: and I said, first of all, the characterization that you're
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: doing as a very uncool and very unfair and don't.
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: Talk about women. And this one number one? Number two?
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: How many times have you expressed what you have gone
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: through to the men in your life?
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: And then he took a pause and he says, I
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: have it? Said why not? He's like, you know, they
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: won't understand. I was like, and you've chosen one woman.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: You had one girlfriend, and the thing that you did
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: was every single day you would go and dump your
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: emotions only on her. Do you think it's fair on her?
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: If I become your very dear friend and every day
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: I just come and talk about how much I'm going
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: through only to you and only to you, and I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: not spreading it out to five different people, would it
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: be fair to you? And he said no, not really.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: A said exactly, my friend, she's not a bad person.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: You know, you have chosen to put your nenti emotional
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: burden on one human being and that is not fair
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: to them. Instead of looking at that perspective, you are
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: saying she's a burden.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: You know, she didn't listen to me and she broke
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: my heart. No, she did not.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: You decided to use her almost as a human guinea
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: pig for just dump your emotions. And I'm not saying
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: don't tell you emotions to the women in your life,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: please do, but also tell it to the men in
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: your life. Also tell it to other people who your brother,
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: tell it to your father, Tell it not just to
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: the women, because that's how you're going to be fair,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: and that's how you're also giving the opportunity to the
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: other men also to step up for you.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: We don't give them that opportunity.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: We are always constantly could say, don't say, they'll say,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: that's what we need to do.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I also think that perhaps it would be beneficial to
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: see relationships as an end in themselves than a means
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: to an end. Like I noticed that a lot of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: men are socialized into seeing everything as in terms of
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: like what am I getting out of this transaction?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: You know what am I getting out of this?
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: So and anyway, when kind of the stigma around you know,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: talking to women unless your family has approved of it,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: et cetera, that you can even get in trouble, right,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: just like a boy and a girl having anything to
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: do with each other is perceived of in a certain light.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: As a result, of which most men don't know how
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: to relate to women other than as a romantic partner,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: like a lot of men don't have female friends or
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: don't even think they're worth their time, like if you're
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: not if they're not either working with you or you're
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: or sleeping with you, Like best money or sex has
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: to be coming out of every relationship you have in
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: your life. Otherwise there's no why would you waste your time?
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: This idea of like connection or just shared acknowledgment of
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: humanity or some sort of you know, spirit or so
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: related activity going on instead of a tangible transactional activity
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: is one that men not have to reject as if
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: it's not.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: And also I would say, you're so right, And I
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: also feel like this is also the fault.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Of other men, right exactly.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: I remember in k.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Is A it's such a deeply h patiacal place that
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: any boy who was talking to any girl for any
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: amount of time, they would immediately next the be rumors
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: that oh they are something going on between them, and
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: it would immediately and it was never innocent rumors. It
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: wasn't just the fact that I'm going to say this
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: on camera because I just want to bring to light
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: how when I look back, how deeply uncomfortable with it was.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: But the term given to us for any boy who
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: has a healthy friendship with the girl also was cc.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: CC in English meant don't if I'm allowed to tell,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll say. In English it was it seemed
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: innocent enough, chick chaser.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: In hind it meant this is.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: The term that was given to any man who would
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: even talk to women. I didn't know what CC meant
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: till the longest time, because I was like, who's easy,
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Because I was like, I'm just having avenges with girl,
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: that's your thing. And then somebody told me it's not
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: just dick chaser. That's the English school term that you mean.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: This is what they mean, you know.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: And it was always seen as this is what you
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: do if you're talking.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: It's sad that that's the worst insult they could come
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: up with.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a compliment to me, I mean, you know,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: but you know what I mean that also, every insult
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: men use against another man has some sort of like
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: deep misogyny and a woman's body part or mother sister,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: some kind of you know.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: And and and the judgment that and the aspersion that
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: you know, by being someone who is being Let's even
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: assume that what they mean here is that you.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Are bending your backround with the words simp yeah, simp correct, right,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: that's like a vulgar word for simp yeah.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. You know, the idea being that if you're being
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: kind to.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: Women, or even if you are, if you're having any
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: kind of relationship with a woman, whether it is friendship,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: whether it is you know, a relationship, it always means
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: you are giving some part of yourself away. You are
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: being less of a man by being this.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Person, by seeing women as human beings.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: You see men do that to eat, like literally make
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: fun of each other for seeing a woman as a
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: human being instead of a whole you know, which is crazy,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: but it still happens. And so I really appreciate that
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: you acknowledge that so often men are their own obstacle
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: in this sort of trajectory to a more intellectually and
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: emotionally fulfilling life.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it would it would also make
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: you reconsider your friendships. You know, you would then be like,
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: when you're constantly being made fun of for being CC,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: you start thinking that.
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: Should I really be seen with girls?
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: In public as much because they were school college magazines
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: we had, Okay, so it was it was like printed
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: on the walls.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: My name came in a magazine as number one CC
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: because I had like four female friends. And that's what
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: I'm coming from.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: You know, it becomes so difficult for men who to
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: be to have these kind of regular friendships with women,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: purely because of how other men judge. I'm going to
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: tell you one last incident, and I know I'm just
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: going on and on, but like I spoke to someone
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: very recently who is a very well known I don't
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: want to get into who she is, but it's a
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: she's a very uh, she's.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: A very good position in life.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Her husband was and she's got a very good job
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: for which she had to move a country and her
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: husband decided to support her career because she's doing such
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: a fantastic job in the world that she's doing.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: It was a huge opportunity for her.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: And I would imagine if anybody else would be her
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: husband would als will say, yeah, yeah, this is such
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: an incredible job. I would also do the same. She
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: told me very recently that I met her. She told
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: me that when her husband decided to quit his job
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: and quit the country that they were living in and
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: join her in the second country. She's like on every
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Instagram post and every Facebook post that they made for
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: the next one year after that. His friends were his
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: childhood friends since then who were with him in the
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: last job, would constantly comment on that picture, saying things like, oh,
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: do you get time from being from washing your wife's brass?
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: Did you get time to push this? Put this up
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: while doing laundry for your wife? You're for cooking for
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: your wife, almost seeming it like it's a shameful thing
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: to do that.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: How dare you, as a man, quit your job to
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: support your wife's career?
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: How could you even do that?
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: So that's where you I mean was talking about this
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: idea of being empathetic or nurturing men have. It's so
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: deeply deeply gendered and so deeply patriarchal that.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: All of us have.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: We can't even see any other man being nurturing. That
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: is seen as an insight to all of masculinity. How
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: dare you take a decision to leave your job to
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: support your wife?
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: That makes you less for man? This is the world
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: we live in.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: How do we try to have more sensitive conversations around gender.
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: How do we bring more men into this conversation?
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: If this is how men are with each other, you know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: forget how they're with women, which is also terribly deeply misogynistic.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: Man, I'm not even kind to.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Each other exactly exactly.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I think that the fact that you are holding other
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: men accountable having these conversations, like really doing what you're
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: doing with.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Other men is something I wish more men would do. Like,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: there's such a lack of role.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Models, you know, and people need role models, right like
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: who is the house husband that we can think of
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: right now? Who is the deeply empathetic dad who's decided
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: to also take time off work or you know, figure
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: it out in such a way that they can participate
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: and change those diapers and have an emotional relationship with
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: their child. I can't think of anybody, neither famous nor
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: privately who other than you. Maybe who's who's like talking
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: the talk and living this?
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: You know? And so I mean, are there any am
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I missing? Any remore? Like can we share any role
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: models with young men?
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: Hoping? I love Knuckle Meta. I think he's such a wonderful,
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: wonderful feminist, vulnerable emotional man. He's a very dear friend.
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: I love him to death. I think he's.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Again someone who even in my shoes, spoke about it.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: When he became a father, he took time off to
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: just be a father, and while other people just could
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: not understand that, he says, I got a lot of
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: pushback from folks in the industry, saying, we have rules
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: for you, why you're not doing them? We can't wait
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: endlessly for you to do your roles. And he would
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: just tell them that do you not understand that the
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: role I'm doing right now, which is that of a father,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: is the most important role that I'm doing in my life?
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: Why is that so difficult to understand? Another man who
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: I really look up to, Girala, who's again.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: You know, just such a present father to his children,
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: such a beautiful, beautiful person in the way that he
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: and I know that there are a lot more men
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: right now who are going on that path, who are
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: willing to, you know, overcome the discomfort that sometimes comes
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: with the fact that this is a call that I'm
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: making for a certain amount of time, not earning a
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: certain amount of money for a certain amount of time,
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: being okay with whatever the society judges is to be
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: to do this job.
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: Not everyone can be as.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: Emotionally vulnerable as you know, as them, or you know
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: as for that matter, even I'm very open with my vulnerability.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: So I really deeply admire everybody, and I feel like
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: I know there are a lot more men. But it's
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: also difficult to talk about these things because the more
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: you make these things public.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: The more you open yourself up for judgment.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: So I know, women who tell me that their husbands
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: are sometimes like I just had a conversation with someone,
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: you know, these are conversations have so much and so often.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: I just had a conversation with someone who said that,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: you know, my husband is the primary contact in this
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: children's school, and.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: They're like, the school just didn't understand that for the
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: longest time that the you know, he works from home
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: and she goes to office and because of that, he
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: was the primary number on the children's phone for school.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: But the school anytime there was an issue with the children,
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: which still call.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: The mom because again the idea is that the mom
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: should be taking the burden of the children and it
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: cannot be shared responsibility. Can you imagine again, just she's
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: like I had to tell them twenty times, please call
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: the dad. He's also the parent. And it's the same thing.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: You know, when you have all these groups for children,
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: men are not there. It's typically women who are you know,
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: on those WhatsApp group for what is happening with the children.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: I know Varuna is one of the red dads who's
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: on such a group. I know Nicole is one of
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: the rare people who tells me that they are on
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: groups like this and they are some of the fewest
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: men there. I myself right now find myself is really
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: odd in in very odd situations.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: Where you know, I'm on the board of a.
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Of an educational nonprofit called Girl Rising. There are thirteen
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: women on that and there's only me as one man.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: I was in New York recently for United Nations Journalissemily
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: Week and we had a lot of gender conversations. There
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: was one dinner that I went to which is on gender,
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: thirty women and me as the only man.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: You know, same, I'm kind of noticing this as a pattern.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that I'm I'm the role model or
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: I'm very grateful that I get to be included in
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: this conversation. But Lisa can you imagine the fact that
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: we are not even as a society trying to find
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: other men to include in these conversations. My propaganda in
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: my show is to create these role models, even if
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: they're not. I know that woman is a really nice guy.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: As an example, he would not be the person that
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: most people would think to call on a show like
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: mine to have a conversation on gender. But I do
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: believe he's a genuine person. And unless I pull him
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: in and say, your voice also matters. Until I pulled
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Zak and say your voice matters, Jaki, and I know
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: you have a very healthy relationships with your female friends.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: I want you to talk about that on the show,
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: because that's how other boys who look up to you
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: will get inspired, you know, to get a Javit Saba
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: Nasiza to have super incredibly feminist conversations. That's the propaganda,
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: you know. I know that there are men like that.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: We just don't look up to them as role models
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: for gender because they don't talk about these subjects. And
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: I also feel it's because nobody asks them enough. And
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: we also need to now ask the men. We need
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: to hold the men in our lives to a higher
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: bar and say, talk about you're a decent person, talk
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: about gender. Let's not shy away, talk about why you're
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: a feminist, talk about why you care about the women
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: in your life, why you worship the women in your life.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: Vicki Koschel on the you know, talking about Katrina in
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: the way he did on my show, where he literally
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: said that I can't believe I get to be her husband.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: I can't believe she chooses. I know every day, what
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: a privilege it is to.
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: Be called Katrina's husband. What a beautiful, beautiful thing to say.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: You know, that's the kind of masculinity which I find
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: so reassuring, so gentle, so kind, so beautiful, and that's
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: what we need more in the world of But we
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: need to include those men, and I think that's a
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: job for everybody. I don't think that's just a man's job.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: I would also say I've been advocating for it in
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: all the gender cohorts that I'm in.
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: Bring more men. We need you.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: We keep talking about wanting gender equality, but if it's
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: only a conversation that women are having with each other,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: you know, we will not get to equality. Men need
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: to be involved in the conversation around gender unequivocal, and
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: we need to bring them in, even if that means
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: forcing them in.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: Sometimes.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope more men come in voluntarily after
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: listening to this conversation, because no, truly though they should
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: come in. You know, often I do think that even
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: when invited, men think of women's rights queer rights as.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Some other people's issue.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: I know, you know, and make so how am I
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: so you press me. I'm trying to do the work
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: to overcome that oppression. I'm trying to make you aware
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: of how it's suppressing you too. But you know, soon
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: after like pull you into the room, like come in, Okay,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: this is an open invitation to men listening, come in,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: have these conversations.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Rather than being hard, come in.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: The door is open, you know, instead of spewing andrew
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: date in my comments like that. It's how come it's
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: so easy for the men to say the you know,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: anti feminist stuff. No one needs to invite them there.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: But I wish that men would just partake. So I
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: think what they're doing is as promising, and I feel
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: like we shouldn't have to bear the like why must
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: men need an invitation? Just come if you want to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: do something, your gender equality come. It's like the world
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: is your oyster?
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Can you ask you, Lisa, because I know that you
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: also do a lot of work in this space. Also,
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: I'm just very curious to know. Have you seen any
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: best practices of how men get involved, any examples that
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: you can give us. You know, something that you've seen
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: that has that you look at as an as a
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: great case study that you know, this is what you know.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: I was able to see and I found it very
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: positive and lovely.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I think that men afraid of what other men will
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: think of them. That's the biggest thing that prevents them
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: from publicly partaking, you know, Like, why can't I think
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: of a male version of me on Instagram?
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Right, there's no.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: I say I have small boobs and like I was
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: conscious of that growing up or whatever, and I'm cool
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: with it. Can you imagine a man being like, I
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: have a small penis and like, I'm okay with that.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: At least in India. I don't know a single creator.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there's someone in the other parts
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: of the world doing that, but I think in general
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: they're afraid of what other men will say. I get
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: women in my comments being like, yes, queen right, even
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: I have small boobs or like, my big boobs may
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: make conscious or whatever like so much, so much resonance,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: solidarity and support from women in the comments. Even men
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: in the comments will be like this, maybe sometimes say
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: something encouraging. Normally they'll object if I say something silly
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: like yes, you look like a flat screen TV.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: And what if I don't let people comments bother me?
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Be under point?
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But I think that men are their own worst enemy
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: in a way, or their own worst obstacle. Where in
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: my DMS, the number of men who say, I hope
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: my like I have so many insecurities about my ability
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: to please a woman, or whether I'm attractive, or how
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to perform in the bedroom. The insecurities men
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: are willing to share with a woman privately in her DMS,
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: versus the projection that they feel they must upkeep in
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: public forums such as comments or in a room full
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: of people or whatever.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: There's such a dissonance, you know. So I know privately
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: men want.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: To be able to be vulnerable, but they refuse to
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: do that work visibly. And so then how do I
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: help you? I mean, is it my work to be
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: a therapist?
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: No?
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Right. I love that.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: You're say inviting men in saying men have to hold
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: each other accountable. And I hope that you can do
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: this publicly because other men need to see you if
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: you're all too scared to do the work publicly, proudly
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: and put your name to your insecurity instead of pretending
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you have none and on sliding into my dms like, do.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: The change could be so much quicker and so much
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: more sort of collective if men were willing instead of
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: having to be pulled in, if men were not coming
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: in each other's way as much, you know, because I
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: think women are very supportive of men for the most
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: part when they're open about their vulnerabilities. I don't think
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: women would shame that man in his comments Avis that
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: have a small pinis so I don't make enough money
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: or whatever I think women like, okay, it's okay, you know,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: whereas I think other men would make fun of I mean,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: of course this is hard to generalize, but do.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: I think so often women are afraid of men, and
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: men are afraid of men because men cause harm, which
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: is so unfortunate. And I make a gross generalization there
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: but that's the crux of the patriarchy.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: No one, we had, no one better, no one.
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: There was a comment exchange when on the show you
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: spoke off how women are you know?
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: You spoke about the harm.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: You said, the biggest thing that women are scared of
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: men are scared off is that you'll have a bad
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: The biggest thing that women are scared they get killed.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: And there was a lot of comments exchange over there,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: and I also wrote, because I was so angry, there's
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: a couple of people who started writing shit on that comment,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: and there's a real that you had put it that
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: went viral. And the biggest thing was that men are
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: also getting afraid of getting killed. How could you generalize
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: and say that only men cause of men also are victims?
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: And then I had to really jump in and say,
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: but who kills you? That's also other men?
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: Exactly, if you feel also unsafe on roads, who are
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: you afraid of? That's also other men.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: You're not afraid of women on the roads, You're also
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: afraid of other men. So why is it so hard
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: for us to acknowledge that, yes, men are you know,
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: men are victims, men are survivors of assault.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I love that we both come from deep love.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: I love we really want the best men, and I'm
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: sorry we obviously feel very passionate about this subject. I
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: was supposed to talk about money and relationships. There's really
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: like so many things came up, but clearly we have
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: an issue here, right, And so I think I.
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: Also want to say, by the way, that you like
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: you spoke about the DM thing.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Even for my show. Most of the kindest comments that
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I get from men are in dms, not on the
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: public comments. With public comments, it's mostly women. It's just
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: such a it's so simple a divide to see that
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: men are typically saying nice things also only in the
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: dams whecaus women are all commenting on it publicly. I'm
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: not again generalizing, there are a lot of men who
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: also write public comments.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: But I just see the divide.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: It's just so strange to me that why is it
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: that men are not even as open to be able
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: to see. I love this show. I loved everything about
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: this show. Just see it out loud.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Thank care, Yeah, Nikol has been such an interesting conversation.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: They literally had to tell us to stop talking.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. But joining me today and I
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: really really hope that we can all invite more men
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: into this idea of a truly equal gender landscape.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: So thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I hope that everyone who in enjoyed this conversation as
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: much as we did, and I also want to get
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Nikkel to share where you can find more of his work.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: I want to also say that I am typically the
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: person who's the listener in my show, and just to
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: have someone like you to listen and the space that
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: you create, Lisa, is the reason that I'm able to
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: feel so safe to talk about these things so passionately.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: So thank you for having me and for creating this lovely,
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: lovely space. My show is called Biamnyar. It's on YouTube,
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: dot com, slash via Yuba. It's a show on positive masculinity.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: We call a lot of iconic men and have conversations
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: around gender, feminism, mental health therapy with them.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: You might enjoy it.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Please watch, definitely go watch, and please also continue to
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: watch Love Matters.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Would Love Matters is produced by.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: The Indian Express and the w Germany's international broadcaster, and
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: as promised at the beginning of the show, we are
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: going to be reading some of your comments and reviews
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: at the end of each episode. So today I want
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: to read out what Somya Ashali Gupta said at the
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: end of Anishka Wandi's episode on what it is like
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: to love men. Soamia says I felt very safe listening
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: to the entire conversation, open minded and judgment free. Thank
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: you DW and Indian Express for such awesome work. Thank
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: you Sonya for sharing your feedback with us. We're so
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: glad you enjoyed the episode and we would love for
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: more of you to share your thoughts as well. Please
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: do rate and review us wherever you're listening, like Share, subscribe,
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: send this episode to the men in your lives. Till
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: next time. This is me, Lisa Mangeldas signing off. I
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: believe love matters.