Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to John Bensahlia about his choice of Pyramids of Mars (2/4)

Transcript

Talks to John Bensahlia about his choice of Pyramids of Mars (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump. Pen Knife will do it quicker,
• 0:35
  quicker, quicker. Hello, welcome back to Hamster
• 0:41
  with a Blump Pen Knife commentary brought to you by
• 0:45
  Joey Ford and guest starring me, Jon Bensalia, in the role of
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  guest commentator. Hello and welcome.
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  Hello, I'm absolutely delighted to be here.
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  Thank you for having me. Thank you for welcoming into
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  your home and into your love of the Pyramids of Mars.
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  So we've touched a little bit on why you like this.
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  Now look, we covered a lot in episode one.
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  We talked about about the music, the design, how scary it was,
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  the direction, the actors. John, what is it left to talk
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  about? We got only Clements in this
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  episode. It's that Roberto V's dad.
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  It is Roberto TV's dad, yes. A stick whilst he was recording
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  this. You know, he's still figuring
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  out what's doing all those copies of Who's Doctor Who he's
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  got at home. Yeah, he's probably hoping to
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  flog 1 to Dr. Warlock, but that's actually, that's probably
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  why he's screaming inside. He probably heard the copy and
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  he's just like. He's only has he got no, he's
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  got 2 lines hasn't he Murdering swine and holy Moses.
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  I think that's the Moses. Oh no, he goes Professor
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  Scholberg. But you know what?
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  For a nonspeaking role, pretty much nonspeaking.
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  You don't forget him, do you? He?
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  Well, he he's very, I mean, he's kind of a little bit like
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  picking Josh, Josh, Josh from the Clause of Axos and that he
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  doesn't really get anything to say apart from just sort of
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  gibberish. But he's still really memorable.
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  Yeah. Or yeah, cliche Yoko speak, but
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  he's still memorable, and it's the same with only Clements and
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  this. You mentioned pick being Josh.
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  All I can think of is. Now look, I would say Dudley
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  Simpson could do no wrong. But those scores where he was
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  fiddling about with that bloody machine, doing all the
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  electronic music, or some of it, is a bit.
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  It's one point where he sounds like he sits in the keyboard
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  with his shoe. I mean, he's had it.
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  After that point, what they were saying?
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  Barry Letts was coming in in the morning and they were saying
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  we've been all up all fucking night with this machine to get
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  you some music. Which fortunately is not the
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  case in Pyramid of Mars, where he's going full on percussion.
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  And that's what I think he's at his best.
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  Yeah. Well, I mean he's, he starts off
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  with, you know, it's kind of a mix of the keyboards and
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  conventional orchestral scores because the one for evil of the
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  Daleks is that that's an orchestra.
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  And he does, you know, he does it again in the war games.
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  And I think the space Pirates, actually I think that's got a an
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  orchestra in that but others you know he like Fury from the deep,
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  it's just keyboard school and then he he doesn't really go
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  back. No, actually no spear from space
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  and Ambassadors of death, they're they're conventional
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  orchestras as well. But it's just from Terror of the
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  Autumns to I think the Three doctors.
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  It's more kind of synthesizer based rather than orchestras.
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  You get a little bit of percussion here and there, like
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  drums and you know the old bit of piano.
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  Do you know what's a sign of an incredible musician is every
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  story you mentioned there. I had a snitch of the music of
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  that story playing in my head. So I was like, Oh my God, unless
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  you're going to jump in with a bit of music for every story.
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  But you named eight stories. I was like, no, OK, I can't do
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  this story. I want to hear the the music
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  there. OK, go on and choose one of
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  those stories. OK?
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  Right. Terror of yours.
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  ONS. Oh, come on.
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  There's the master fame in it. Look, look, look, look, look.
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  Look. Come on.
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  Harder than that, right? OK, Fury from the deep.
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  It's the Oak and Quill piece of music, isn't it?
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  Da da da da like war games. It's that fabulous.
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  Da da da da da da. Yeah, I knew you were going to
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  go for that one. Yeah.
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  And for even atomics, it's da da da da done, done da da one as
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  well, yeah. Oh, good, isn't it?
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  Sorry. There are so many bits of music
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  that I could, you know, I mean, I'd do the same as you.
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  I mean, I find, you know, find myself humming something, you
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  know, well, you know, do washing up or whatever.
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  And I think, where's that from? Oh, it's from a Doctor Who
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  Dudley Simpson School. Can you do something from
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  Ambassadors of Death? Then please come on.
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  But. Our point being is this is
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  vivid. I know we've watched these
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  things like an obscene amount of times, Too many times.
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  Reasonable for one person to watch these things.
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  But the point is, is that music is memorable enough to stick in
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  here. I can tell you what I had for
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  dinner last week, all right, but I can tell you now there's a
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  woman screaming in the space. Pirates throughout, yes.
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  Well, after that little drink ticks on Dudley Simpson, should
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  we watch episode two? I think we should, yes.
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  Well, go on. Shall I count this in?
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  I think you did it last time, didn't you?
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  It's. It's your turn now, Joey.
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  Cool. OK, I'll do it in deaths.
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  All right, 5 Namin, 4 Warlock, 3 Lawrence, two Ernie Clements.
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  One, the very cute Butler that I can't remember goes.
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  It's a massacre. This isn't it.
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  It is. It's a bloodbath.
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  And even in the book, at me gets bumped off by Naming's minions.
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  Oh really? Terris.
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  It makes it even bloodier. Yeah.
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  So yeah, everybody dies. I mean, I'm I'm sure Stephen
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  Moffel watches this and throws the TV across the rumor, I
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  suppose. You are so cheeky.
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  Is that because everybody does not live?
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  Yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go.
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  In the reprisal, do you know? I've got a I've got a question
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  for you about Mary White House. Yes.
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  So start doing an impression of her.
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  Gee, I've been flogging out to death for years.
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  I can see in my mind's eye Doctor Who being drowned and
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  it's like the producers would have been dumb.
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  Why have you made it Northern? She sounds normal, Norman.
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  Norman. She sounds normal.
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  I'm sure she wasn't. No, but my point is this is, did
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  she at all have a point or do you think that it never stepped
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  over the line? No, I think he stepped over the
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  line. I think she was talking complete
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  bollocks. I mean it's just I think she
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  lived in this very kind of cozy fantasy world and I think and I
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  think you should show death for what it is that they think you
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  should go like the Morphett room and then, you know kill somebody
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  off bruisally and then bring them back to life.
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  I don't think that is a healthy message send to kids one because
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  if a close, you know, a close, you know, relative or friend
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  that dies and they come back to life.
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  You know, if they don't come back to life, I mean that, you
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  know, if they're going to expect this thing, Oh well, you know,
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  if they came back to life like they didn't Doctor Who.
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  And also you should show violence that it hurts.
• 9:04
  And if you just, you know, sort of show a weedy slap or whatever
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  and you show, I mean there is that.
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  There is a quote from Eric's award saying that isn't there,
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  that if you show violence, you should show that it hurts.
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  I'm thinking maybe he did take that to his extreme.
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  Who's that? Eric's award.
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  Oh, Eric Saywood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  I mean, I suppose he's just kind of violence for the sake of it,
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  but I don't know. I kind of resurrection of the
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  dialects, you know, I like that attacking cyber men.
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  But yeah, I mean it's it's it's a valid point.
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  But I don't personally, I don't think it ever overstepped Mark,
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  really. You know, I mean, Doctor Who's
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  designed to be a scary show. And The thing is, in periods of
• 9:47
  a lot of it's implied You cut away from Warlock's death, you
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  cut away from Lawrence's death. So in a way, like the best
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  horror movie, the implication is scarier than actually the real
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  life of it. Better if I use all the other
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  tricks in the book, you know, like with the blood curdling,
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  screams and the sound effects and all of that.
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  But you know where he says to Marcus, Marcus your hands and
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  then like. In my mind as a child, and he's
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  being thrown around the room and he's going, no, don't kill me.
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  And he's literally being like he's being slaughtered horribly.
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  And in a way, maybe seeing it would be actually better than
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  what this disease mind could conjure up.
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  Yes, exactly. Yeah.
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  I mean it's it's left to the, you know, the viewers.
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  Look at that. Can I better see us over there?
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  Yeah, Wasn't that from? I'm sure they that was like stop
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  footage. I mean, I think they used the
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  Black of Mine version in Day of the Daleks and I think it was in
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  a Moody Blues video, I think oh, here he comes.
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  Are we doing day for night here? This feels very dark.
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  Yeah. It's day for night, yeah.
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  Or is it just very early in the morning he's up with a lark.
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  It could. I mean it, it looks day for
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  night. I mean it's it's like a bit in
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  the stones of blood when with the night time season that and
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  it's it's very obviously a filter.
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  But I don't know. For all I know it could have
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  been you know shot at like 5 in the morning or something.
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  I mean, it was filmed in April and May, wasn't it?
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  John, Yeah, yeah, April the 29th of the 2nd of May 75.
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  So yeah, when I was a nipper, yeah, we had woods backing onto
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  my house, so I used to play out in the woods all the time.
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  Any Doctor Who story now that has loads of scenes in woods,
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  I'm there for it. This is, this is my playground.
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  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, again, you
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  can. Your imagination just runs
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  right, doesn't it? Wow.
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  And I used to have fabulous adventures, you know, with the
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  mummies chasing me through the woods.
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  Were you playing Ernie Clements? Probably, yeah.
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  I was a bit of a geeky kid. I think that's that's a lovely
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  bit of humor. The mumies stepping into the
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  bear trap. Oh, no, sorry.
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  Rabbit trap. That's right.
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  Bear trap. I've got bears in English.
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  Yeah. Sorry, Thumper, for those of you
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  who don't know Thumper, that he's our pet rabbit.
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  And don't look Thumper, because he's gone.
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  What it is Yeah. Don't look, yeah.
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  So yeah, there's kind of a bit of irony in that.
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  You know Ernie Clement, Sonny. You know, the hunter becomes the
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  hunted. It's, you know, a really good
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  bit of humor about. Well, it is a fact.
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  You know that Robert Holmes does have a bit of a sick sense of
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  humor, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah.
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  It does come through from time to.
• 12:52
  Time. I think that sequence in Tara,
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  the autumns, where the man gets eaten by the chair, yeah.
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  Savage comment on consumerism, you know.
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  Do you ever heard that story about him and the pudding?
• 13:07
  What? That confused.
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  But they would all. So they would all go out for
• 13:15
  dinner and have like script me and things like this.
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  Yeah. Terrance Dicks and and, you
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  know, gentlemen would go out and eat and it was a thing that the
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  pudding menu came out. Yeah.
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  So you'd all look at it and nobody would have pudding.
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  Like that was the accepted thing that everyone would go, oh, no,
• 13:30
  no, no, not for me, not for me. And apparently they had this,
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  this meal. Terrance Dicks said.
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  Oh no, no, not for me, no, no, Robert Holmes went.
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  I'll have jam, Roly Poly, and custard, please.
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  Apparently he was a contrary bastard, you know?
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  Yeah, and he just, I I never heard that.
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  But he's he's a jam, Roly Poly and custard.
• 13:54
  Man, I think he just likes pushing against the ties.
• 13:57
  Yeah, that's good. I kind of love that image of him
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  in in the back of a room, smoking his puffing away in his
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  pipe, you know, very, very inscrutable.
• 14:08
  But I I kind of like that, you know, he's not all showy and you
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  know, look how many awards I've got, look how brilliant I am.
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  You know, he he just told his story and he got on with it.
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  This to me, was one of the most frightening scenes as a child,
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  yeah. Marcus Carlin it's because.
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  His old friend kills him as well.
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  Yeah, it's brutal, isn't it? Peter Coxley plays it really
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  well, you know, he goes from, you know, like sort of disbelief
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  to confusion and then pure horror when when the money
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  bodges in. But of course, you know, Bernard
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  Archer as well. I mean it's it's a wonderful
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  performance. Well, I think it could so easily
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  be Pony, the way he's remember it.
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  He goes, you know, you're warlock, you know, like it could
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  be terrible if it was oh, Louis Theander in the role, you know.
• 15:07
  Dialogue is just said in my brain since Marcus.
• 15:10
  What's wrong with you? It's like the way that, you
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  know, when he comes out with like that, it's kind of very
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  sort of slurred and he almost kind of looks pleased with
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  himself that he actually remembers this little bit of who
• 15:28
  he was before. Yeah, And there's another, isn't
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  it, where Lawrence is trying to get through through and he's
• 15:34
  like you and I when we were boys, yeah.
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  And that kind of comes through. Marcus and Robert Holmes does
• 15:42
  have this thing about possession, doesn't he?
• 15:43
  And it's a very common theme, isn't it?
• 15:46
  Yeah. Well, because it means you're
• 15:47
  just relying on the scares of a good actor.
• 15:51
  Yeah, which? Which is what you got.
• 15:54
  You know, like Bernard Archer bet just the way he called.
• 15:56
  He says destroy this human and poor.
• 16:01
  Poor Mr. Warlock. Oh, bless him.
• 16:03
  Did you ever see him in that New Avengers episode?
• 16:07
  No. It's about psychotic birds.
• 16:11
  I always thought this was a parrot, but he goes.
• 16:15
  But apparently it's I'm screaming Sorry Joey, new event.
• 16:19
  No, I'll tell you what, your array of screams are incredible.
• 16:25
  What did you make of chub in the Robots of Death?
• 16:36
  I don't know about as much as I made of.
• 16:38
  You. Didn't your butt off?
• 16:39
  You still feel disgusting? Man, you're an animal.
• 16:47
  I'll tell you what, someone needs to do one of these YouTube
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  videos of just all the screams of doctor, right?
• 16:52
  I'm I'm going to do that, I think.
• 16:53
  Yeah, it. Would be incredible.
• 16:58
  Oh, you get some mileage out of Deborah Watlin.
• 17:00
  You know, even I couldn't reach up that high.
• 17:03
  I mean, but yeah, the only thing I see.
• 17:10
  Episode about killer birds and he was like the bird expert and
• 17:16
  they steed and Gambit and Purdy go and visit him at his
• 17:21
  glamorous mansion and he's outside topless by the pool.
• 17:25
  There's many men I want to see topless, but Copley is not one
• 17:29
  of them. It's not a pleasant image.
• 17:37
  He's he's not like medallion, man.
• 17:39
  So he's not. No, no, no.
• 17:41
  It's just it's very sort of pitching chest, you know?
• 17:44
  Yeah, not nice. Yeah.
• 17:47
  Moving swiftly on moving. Swiftly on.
• 17:50
  Well, I've seen him in The Beatles movie Help.
• 17:52
  He plays jeweler at that and he's in one foot in the grave.
• 17:56
  I think he plays a clean horse. No, he plays the victor.
• 18:00
  Mildrew is doing the cleaning and he's the fastest, yeah.
• 18:04
  And they're having a Hoover war, Yeah, yeah.
• 18:07
  And he's wearing a very obvious wig.
• 18:09
  And he takes off the hooves out, I think.
• 18:11
  I don't. Know.
• 18:12
  Very fat. I love Foot in the Grave, you
• 18:14
  know? Oh yeah, I am.
• 18:16
  I am addicted. Mildrew have.
• 18:17
  You ever been squeezed into a priest, Hull?
• 18:21
  Funny you should say that. No.
• 18:22
  No. I do believe this set, though I
• 18:29
  do. I am convinced.
• 18:31
  Yeah, it's. Authentic, even though it's
• 18:33
  clearly not because there's some in the documentary.
• 18:35
  There's some lovely shots of the sets with the microphones coming
• 18:39
  down and the light and everything.
• 18:41
  The scale of it. The scale of it is impressive.
• 18:46
  I mean, just there's something about those Hinge kids stories
• 18:48
  that feel expensive if they. Yeah, I mean, if they went over
• 18:53
  the budget. Well, if they go over the
• 18:55
  budget, I don't know. But if they certainly made the
• 18:57
  most of the budget, you know, what they had.
• 19:01
  And it's just every, you know, every little detail, every
• 19:03
  little nuance, you know, Yeah, this is they.
• 19:08
  They cut bits of this out of the VHS, didn't they?
• 19:11
  The way they do the effects in reverse is so clever.
• 19:16
  It's brilliant, isn't it? And yet it is so simple, You
• 19:20
  know, they they just do it in reverse.
• 19:22
  But it kind of adds, you know, the, you know, the slightly
• 19:24
  grainy film quality. That kind of makes it even more
• 19:27
  weary, I suppose. And he does, Walking backwards,
• 19:31
  walking forwards. Very good.
• 19:32
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:36
  And you actually see the bullet come out of the back.
• 19:38
  Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? I mean, I think Bernard arched.
• 19:43
  I think he said in an interview that he was, he was literally
• 19:45
  sweating bullets when the charges went off.
• 19:47
  I wouldn't bless him. Oh, this is it.
• 19:51
  I think this was where the mummy's really, really
• 19:55
  frightened me because they go off and then we come back to
• 19:59
  them over about four scenes. So at the moment, look, he's got
• 20:03
  a bit of energy and they're just lumbering over the grass after
• 20:06
  him. But there's a wonderful shot
• 20:09
  shot from below in a bit where he's.
• 20:11
  Behind a tree. He's behind a tree, top of a
• 20:14
  rise and then he's like, I've got a move, so he starts running
• 20:18
  and then they start eyes. Yeah, that's what my sister
• 20:22
  would call the Bee Gees moment. Go on.
• 20:27
  Well, I mean my poor family when I was a kid, you know, I would
• 20:31
  because we only have one TV in the house and I would say mom,
• 20:34
  dad, can I watch Pubis and bars please?
• 20:37
  And of course they are great. And my sister Emma, you know,
• 20:39
  she'll watch it as well she she's seen it probably, you know
• 20:43
  she saw it quite a few times. But the music, she always thinks
• 20:46
  sounds like the Bee Gees. But she goes, he, he, he, he, I
• 20:54
  look, go and listen, watch it and get in the same way I do.
• 21:00
  Like that music though, you know?
• 21:04
  Oh, I always felt that was K Nine's head.
• 21:06
  Do you know that mummy that comes out with look?
• 21:07
  It looks like K nine's head. It does, yeah.
• 21:10
  It probably is. I mean it's it's probably, maybe
• 21:13
  Professor Mary has kind of rescued it from from the fire.
• 21:18
  Maybe he went back in time and rescued it and cannibalized it
• 21:20
  for K9, but this is just like me and Tang for Doctor Who, isn't
• 21:25
  it? Manor houses.
• 21:27
  Yeah, And we go back here and do we go back there?
• 21:30
  An image of the Fendile Stones of blood.
• 21:34
  Stones of Blood. Yeah.
• 21:37
  The Cedar Doom. You've got Chase's mansion
• 21:40
  there. Wonderful.
• 21:42
  There's something about the design work there, you know?
• 21:46
  Yeah, a big fan of that and they sort of in a contained location
• 21:49
  they can do where you can do lots of running around, you
• 21:52
  know? Yeah, I think it's the, you
• 21:55
  know, the scooby-doo factory, isn't it?
• 21:57
  You know, because they used to run around lots of.
• 22:00
  Houses. And I think there's something,
• 22:02
  you know, that gives an extra kind of creepy edge.
• 22:05
  I think you know, because of all these dark corners and shadows
• 22:09
  need that you know. For all you know, the money
• 22:11
  could suddenly loom out the shadow.
• 22:12
  Just go, you know, in your life Okay John, I've got a question
• 22:16
  for you that I require, I require your opinion on.
• 22:21
  So in a second, now we have this very memorable sequence where
• 22:25
  the Doctor takes Lawrence and Sarah to an alternative future
• 22:31
  where if they didn't solve the problem in 1911, that's what the
• 22:35
  future would be. Well, that does seem to
• 22:38
  contradict what William Hartnell was saying back in the 60s of
• 22:42
  you can't change history. Not one line now, one, which
• 22:46
  approach do you prefer? And two, does this work for you?
• 22:51
  This sequence. That's a good question.
• 22:55
  Yeah. I mean, I like the way that, you
• 23:00
  know that Hartnell originally says you can't rewrite history.
• 23:03
  And of course the way they've done that more recently.
• 23:06
  I've seen many examples to mention, but I don't like that
• 23:10
  because it just kind of it. Lowers the dramatic stakes.
• 23:15
  I think, you know, if if you could just rewrite time just
• 23:18
  like that, then you could do anything and you know, you've
• 23:21
  got no drama there. But I do think this works, you
• 23:25
  know, because it's kind of like a little bit like Inferno with a
• 23:29
  parallel universe. So you know, I presume he's
• 23:35
  thinking Sarah Lawrence to a, you know, a parallel Earth or
• 23:39
  something Where where? So take one.
• 23:43
  But it's, yeah, it's it's incredibly, you know, powerful
• 23:47
  scene. I mean, it works well, I think,
• 23:51
  I think there's probably, if you sort of step back from the
• 23:54
  story, you're like, well, yeah, you know what?
• 23:56
  She said. We know the world didn't end in
• 23:58
  1911, you know, so he's. But also I do think he's sping
• 24:03
  his place a little bit as well. And it's like, right, this is 5
• 24:05
  minutes of extra runtime. That's less, but it is strange.
• 24:09
  It is very strange. It's great to walk away from the
• 24:13
  story for a period and then to come back into it again because
• 24:18
  we believe you know what we're told in every other story that
• 24:20
  you can't pile at the targets. Well, then, the Doctor, Sarah
• 24:23
  Marcus Scarman. Sorry, Lawrence, Scarman have
• 24:25
  now gone on about 15 adventures before they go back to Pyramids
• 24:27
  and Mars. Big Finish.
• 24:30
  Are you paying attention? Yeah, I bet.
• 24:37
  You've been doing so many preventions these days, He
• 24:41
  stopped recording as far as I know, But they have enough for
• 24:44
  about they. Have enough of backlog.
• 24:46
  Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I.
• 24:47
  Mean. He's, what, 89 now?
• 24:48
  I mean, Sarah said that, didn't she?
• 24:53
  We've got to go back. Yeah, And she asked the question
• 24:59
  that no fucking companion ever asked.
• 25:01
  Why don't we just go? Yeah, yeah.
• 25:07
  I think there's always this assumption when you're in a
• 25:09
  Doctor Who story. Well, that's it.
• 25:10
  We're in for the long haul, you know.
• 25:12
  But it's lovely to ask that. It's the sort of thing Rusty
• 25:14
  Davis did when he brought it back in series one of having
• 25:18
  Rose asked all these questions. You know, how is it I can hear
• 25:23
  English? What happens if the companion
• 25:25
  doesn't come home for a year? All those questions that we've
• 25:27
  never really thought about before?
• 25:32
  Oh, here they come. Here they come and Ernie Clams
• 25:35
  is getting more, so you get blunders into the invisible
• 25:38
  barrier. There he is.
• 25:40
  I mean, I could see why this would terrify the kids, because
• 25:43
  they are just unstoppable. Well, that and it's so clever,
• 25:46
  isn't it? Because you've got this vast
• 25:47
  sort of outside space, but they've contained it by.
• 25:50
  Yeah, by having an invisible barrier.
• 25:54
  It's fun, yeah. I mean, you know, you know, you
• 25:56
  don't need lashings of budget for that.
• 25:59
  You know, you can do it for free.
• 26:00
  You just do a bit of Marcel Marceau mine and you know, there
• 26:03
  you go. They're, they're moving at a
• 26:05
  lick now, aren't they? Those mummies?
• 26:07
  Yeah, she keeps that camera on them as they get closer and
• 26:10
  closer. So they're sort of coming at
• 26:11
  you. I think Paddy Russell really
• 26:16
  knew what she was doing. Oh, she did.
• 26:19
  I mean, it's it's quite because she actually went on to direct.
• 26:21
  I don't know if you remember a game show called 321.
• 26:25
  I do remember 321. You do remember.
• 26:27
  Yeah, Dusty Ben. Yeah, she directed up one
• 26:30
  complete series of that. So and you can actually at the
• 26:36
  end of the series she's she's actually in the this way of a
• 26:39
  shot of a crew waving and you can.
• 26:41
  Pick her out and she she she looks like she's quite enjoying
• 26:44
  it. I don't know, might say John.
• 26:45
  That's a waste of her talent, as you know.
• 26:48
  Well, maybe. But when you've got to contend
• 26:50
  with, you know, comedy sketches and Ted Rogers's jokes and you
• 26:56
  know, you know, indecipherable clues, you know that, you know,
• 27:00
  that's quite a quite a challenge.
• 27:05
  Like a bit 321. What's lovely as well with
• 27:12
  Lawrence and later with Sarah as well, is they really bring a bit
• 27:16
  of humanity to the story, which otherwise it might have been a
• 27:19
  bit cold and a bit violent, you know?
• 27:22
  Yeah, I I think it kind of emphasizes, you know the aliens
• 27:26
  of the Doctor as well, you know, because you know, because he's
• 27:29
  he is at his most alien. You know, he's he's just looking
• 27:32
  at the bigger picture. So, yeah, you've got Sarah and
• 27:37
  you've got Lawrence and they, they do bring that, you know,
• 27:39
  the required kind of humanity to it, which is, and it and it
• 27:43
  works very well. Well, then may I ask you another
• 27:46
  question? Why is it so forgivable when Tom
• 27:51
  Baker acts like a bit of a prick or, you know, let's say an alien
• 27:56
  and is very cold and clinical and doesn't really wreck it and
• 27:59
  actually makes some jokes about it and punches chauffeurs and
• 28:03
  gases, people to death and Brain of Morbius.
• 28:06
  Why is that pretty cool and all right?
• 28:09
  And then we skip forward a couple of regenerations and what
• 28:12
  we've got Colin Baker doing it and the clowns out there,
• 28:14
  suddenly this ain't cool anymore.
• 28:17
  I think it's probably the subtlety, I think because yeah,
• 28:20
  obviously the 80s. I think if you give, if you give
• 28:24
  them the right material to work with first of all, then that's
• 28:27
  great because. With Tom's Doctor, yes, you've
• 28:30
  got all that. You know, the thumping, thumping
• 28:33
  chauffeurs and gassing Solemn and Brain and Morbius and
• 28:36
  shoving Grill into the cabinet and all of that.
• 28:39
  But he but he also, you know, there's lots of humor in there
• 28:43
  as well, you know. And it's just that kind of that
• 28:47
  effortless way that he plays what, you know, what Tom Baker's
• 28:50
  called the benevolent alien. Not so benevolent alien, as it
• 28:54
  turns out, but. You know, he's he's a likable
• 28:57
  character, you know, he's not Pompers, he's not up his own
• 29:01
  backside. Whereas I think we've like
• 29:04
  Colin's Dr. He can be a little bit over there already.
• 29:08
  He can be a little bit, you know, pompers.
• 29:11
  But I don't think that's Colin Baker's fault.
• 29:12
  I think that's more scripting. I think I I think Colin Baker
• 29:15
  was a good doctor. I I Everything's very garish and
• 29:19
  in your face back then. Yeah, it's the lack of subtlety.
• 29:22
  One of my pet hates. Not, you know, not just in, but
• 29:28
  any job. It's lack of subtlety, and I
• 29:30
  need that subtlety there. Otherwise it just becomes just
• 29:33
  too ridiculous. I don't like things that seem to
• 29:36
  me face. So yeah, I think that's why
• 29:40
  Tom's Doctor works. I can imagine Colin Baker's
• 29:44
  costume. You might have had a few
• 29:45
  problems with that, then lack of.
• 29:49
  Yeah, Colin Baker's costume in Pyramids of Mars.
• 29:52
  It wouldn't really fit in with it.
• 29:55
  It would be absurd. See the direction there of the
• 30:00
  mummies coming in? One of them tosses Tom Baker
• 30:03
  aside like he's a rag doll. Yeah, he's like a sucker spots.
• 30:07
  Yeah, just like that. You get the the shot of the
• 30:11
  mummy from Sarah's point of view and then you get shot of Sarah
• 30:15
  with the mummy's hand around her throat from the mummy's point of
• 30:17
  view. But the reaction is good.
• 30:20
  It's brilliant, isn't it? I mean, obviously, you know,
• 30:22
  you've got your heavyweights like Douglas Canfield, Graham
• 30:26
  Harper and all of that, but I think Paddy Russells is one of
• 30:28
  the very best. You know, it's not so, you know,
• 30:31
  not too flashy, but it's still very, very strong, imaginative,
• 30:35
  thoughtful direction and I think that's, you know, Philipp
• 30:39
  Hinchcliff really managed to pick some great directors.
• 30:44
  I think the two female, the two sort of dominant female
• 30:48
  directors in classic Who, Paddy Russell and Fiona Cumming.
• 30:52
  Fiona Cumming, Yeah. Both bring something really
• 30:55
  interesting to the show and it actually makes me sad that I'm
• 31:00
  assuming there were other, you know, Sarah Hellings is there,
• 31:03
  isn't she? For Mark.
• 31:04
  Mary reached the terminus. Yeah, that we didn't have more
• 31:08
  of this happening in the 70s and 80s, yeah.
• 31:11
  It is. It is a shame, you know, because
• 31:13
  I mean, you know, Paddy Russell. Fiona Cumming, Also excellent
• 31:16
  directors. Really brought something special
• 31:18
  to the show. So yes, it yeah, it it was a
• 31:22
  shame. And it's not like, you know, I
• 31:25
  think that people have this sort of thing that, you know, if a
• 31:28
  woman's directing Doctor Who, then it's suddenly going to be,
• 31:31
  you know, very genteel. Well, look at Pyramids and Mars.
• 31:35
  I know, I know, you said at the beginning of this episode it is
• 31:38
  a massacre. You.
• 31:39
  Know. Yeah.
• 31:40
  And of course, Mary Ridge directed.
• 31:41
  You know the ending of Blake 7 and you can't get more.
• 31:45
  Less. Well, it's certainly not
• 31:46
  genteel. And yet when Fiona Cumming, I
• 31:50
  mean it's it's the rarest of things with enlightenment,
• 31:53
  written and directed by women. And it is quite a gentle story
• 31:59
  and it is sort of emotionally led.
• 32:02
  It's brilliant, you know, it's I.
• 32:05
  Actually find it quite spooky. I I think it's quite a spooky
• 32:07
  story. It's not, you know, it's not
• 32:09
  obviously going for, you know, kind of like the hard violence
• 32:11
  that was. Quite hallmark of the 80s but it
• 32:14
  is, it is quite an ethereal quite weird, you know, so you
• 32:18
  know very you know subtly quite disturbing story I think in in
• 32:22
  some ways, I think. And the same with with snake
• 32:24
  dance as well, of course. Oh God, terrifying.
• 32:27
  I I think part There's parts of Snake Dance I think are really
• 32:31
  unnerving. Well then, to round out this
• 32:34
  episode, let's let's give Paddy Russell a clap.
• 32:39
  No, actually, let's give Toby Hadoke a clap on the back for
• 32:43
  the few times he's had to do commentaries alongside Paddy
• 32:45
  Russell and she claps fuck all to say to him.
• 32:50
  Yeah, I can't remember whether it's part 4 or part five of the
• 32:54
  Invasion of Dinosaurs. And he's literally, I mean he's
• 32:59
  he's just literally asking questions and she just get, you
• 33:02
  know, gives out nothing, just like one word, you know, I know.
• 33:07
  I mean that is a heroic that. Is that is it's just crazy.
• 33:12
  I mean, you know, I mean I've, I've never met Toby Aido.
• 33:16
  But yeah, hats off the guy you know for managing to do that.
• 33:21
  But as we have said several Times Now, it's what's on the
• 33:24
  screen that counts, not the commentaries, how people
• 33:28
  responded to it. It's the end result that counts.
• 33:31
  And Paddy Russell? You may have been authoritative
• 33:33
  and and a bit snarky in the studio, but what you delivered
• 33:40
  was 4 brilliant Doctor news stories.
• 33:42
  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 33:44
  And 321. Don't forget that and 321.