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Not Everyone's a Narcissist: Redefining Relationship Red Flags · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hey, violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:41
  Mary: First, a quick thank you to you, the listener.
• 0:44
  Mary: I recently discovered that my podcast is in the top 10% of all podcasts currently, and this could not happen without all of you responding, giving comments and sharing your favorite episodes.
• 0:56
  Mary: So thank you.
• 0:57
  Mary: Okay, I've worked in the mental health world for over three decades.
• 1:01
  Mary: Most of that time was spent in college student mental health.
• 1:04
  Mary: I remember the first time I felt panic when a student sat in my office and told me her diagnosis.
• 1:10
  Mary: I had never heard of it.
• 1:12
  Mary: What did I miss?
• 1:14
  Mary: But then I realized TikTok.
• 1:17
  Mary: And now, between social media and AI, I see both the benefit of people finding information that helps them make sense of their challenges and the oversimplified, catchphrase-y and, honestly, blatantly inaccurate information related to mental health.
• 1:32
  Mary: Just the other day I saw a post about a quote diagnosis that doesn't exist.
• 1:37
  Mary: Yet someone commented this is an actual diagnosis.
• 1:41
  Mary: This sounds just like me.
• 1:42
  Mary: About 10 years ago people started saying anyone with whom they had a difficult relationship was bipolar, probably wrong.
• 1:51
  Mary: Most recently, the diagnosis du jour for people in one's life causing issues seem to often be narcissist Again, most likely wrong.
• 2:02
  Mary: According to a study in the Journal of Psychiatry, the prevalence of lifetime narcissistic personality disorder was about 6.2%.
• 2:11
  Mary: Rates are higher for men, but keep in mind that this percentage can vary depending on what study you read and how the study is structured.
• 2:19
  Mary: But based on how often people claim an ex is a narcissist, the percentage would be about 50%.
• 2:28
  Mary: Now, that is not to diminish the experience of those affected by true narcissist.
• 2:33
  Mary: It is just that human behavior is often more complex than a label.
• 2:39
  Mary: Okay, so here's the thing about diagnoses they are very rarely cut and dried.
• 2:43
  Mary: Here's the thing about diagnoses they are very rarely cut and dried.
• 2:48
  Mary: I have seen diagnoses in the records of new clients that were given by past practitioners that made me shake my head in puzzlement.
• 2:52
  Mary: I didn't see any evidence for that diagnosis.
• 2:55
  Mary: The diagnoses, as well as the symptoms, often evolve over time, so each time a new DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual which is what mental health professionals use to diagnose every time a new one is developed, there's a lot of debate.
• 3:12
  Mary: It is not a quick process and often criteria and names of diagnoses change.
• 3:19
  Mary: My guest today has made it part of her mission to educate people about what narcissism truly is and how to help those affected by the behaviors of both narcissists and those who may not meet the criteria but who contribute to a toxic relationship.
• 3:34
  Mary: Shannon Petrovich is a therapist coach, author and YouTube creator specializing in helping people deal with and heal from narcissistic.
• 3:44
  Mary: Specializing in helping people deal with and heal from narcissistic, abusive and other toxic relationships.
• 3:49
  Mary: Her book is Out of the Fog Into the Clear Journaling to Help you Heal from Toxic Relationships.
• 3:53
  Mary: She has a YouTube channel, therapist Talks Thrive Beyond Narcissism, where she offers insights, information and strategies on a wide range of mental health issues.
• 4:05
  Mary: She takes a trauma-informed, strengths-based approach to help people identify their self-limiting old stories and negative internal self-talk, to help them overcome self-destructive relationship patterns and become all they were created to be.
• 4:19
  Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking Violet Shannon.
• 4:23
  Shannon: Thank you so much, mary, it's great to be here.
• 4:26
  Mary: Okay.
• 4:27
  Mary: So I would love to dive into the idea of toxic relationships and boundaries from kind of a therapist to therapist angle.
• 4:36
  Mary: It's really a delight to have someone on the show with me who we can sort of have some therapist speak.
• 4:42
  Mary: So recently I followed someone on Instagram.
• 4:46
  Mary: She's recently exploded with followers and her messages partly protect ourselves, but not too much.
• 4:54
  Mary: So we talk about protecting our peace and we have become so.
• 4:59
  Mary: I'm gonna put educated in quotes, because working with young people like they are so much more knowledgeable now and some of it's accurate, some of it's not.
• 5:09
  Mary: She is a therapist too, so I think sometimes things are confusing.
• 5:15
  Mary: It's like protect your peace, set your boundaries, but not too much, or you won't have capacity to deal with things.
• 5:20
  Mary: So, first of all, why do you think so many people struggle now with what we call, we'll say, toxic relationships?
• 5:30
  Shannon: It is so big and complex it's hard to suss it out and I like to keep it simpler.
• 5:36
  Shannon: I think it's really, really important that we look at first the toxic relationship that we have with ourselves, because oftentimes we're always, we're looking out there, we're focused out there, we're sussing out and diagnosing everybody out there and the truth of it is that we bring with us a template.
• 5:56
  Shannon: So Bessel van der Kolk, the Body, keeps the Score.
• 5:59
  Shannon: That's kind of my go-to and something I always recommend to people.
• 6:01
  Shannon: My go-to and something I always recommend to people because he talks about templates and oftentimes you'll hear people mistakenly and rudely and horribly say well, they're just comfortable with abuse or they're just comfortable in toxic relationships.
• 6:20
  Shannon: They're always going to do that.
• 6:21
  Shannon: That makes me cringe because no one is comfortable with abuse or toxic relationships.
• 6:29
  Shannon: But we do have a tendency to have experiences in childhood that are adverse events of any sort, them as stories, and we bring those stories and those templates with us and then they do often align with people who are not necessarily good for us.
• 6:51
  Shannon: We do tend to bring that self-talk with us into our lives so that if we have a frustration or a fear or a mistake that we've made, we beat ourselves mercilessly, we're our own worst enemy, and so that can lead us to be more accepting of, or resonant with somebody else who beats us up emotionally.
• 7:15
  Shannon: So those things are important and we do bring those things with us, and if we don't start on the inside, we are just going to keep repeating those patterns.
• 7:26
  Shannon: So when we look at how we treat ourselves, how we talk to ourselves and then move from there outward, that helps us to set boundaries in a really different way, and then that boundary setting is more organic, it makes more sense.
• 7:42
  Shannon: It isn't just reactive, defensive and emotional, but it's.
• 7:47
  Shannon: I'm coming from a centered, grounded place within myself and I can take care of myself on the outside too.
• 7:56
  Mary: Yeah Well, you said a couple things there, so I'm making notes.
• 7:59
  Mary: I don't want to forget something.
• 8:00
  Mary: But first of all, I want to talk a little more about the word toxic, because I think we have started to really overstate things.
• 8:08
  Mary: Some relationships are simply unhealthy, and that's not to downplay them, but toxic to me is it's such a strong word Narcissism, such a strong word, but we started to take this huge paintbrush and paint these words that are so what's the word?
• 8:27
  Mary: They're so severe.
• 8:29
  Mary: So what is your thought on using the word toxic?
• 8:33
  Shannon: Really good question and it is so important to recognize.
• 8:36
  Shannon: We have weaponized so many words in our social media culture and it's really important to back up and look at it more realistically, because there are relationships that are unhealthy and then there are relationships that are toxic.
• 8:52
  Shannon: The difference to me is unhealthy means my thoughts, feelings, wants and needs aren't being met or acknowledged or heard or kept safe.
• 9:06
  Shannon: Toxic is when I am literally dying within this relationship, emotionally, becoming just bankrupt.
• 9:16
  Shannon: Physically my health is going downhill, maybe my finances are depleted and I'm heading towards bankruptcy.
• 9:25
  Shannon: So that's toxic.
• 9:27
  Shannon: It's like it is killing you.
• 9:28
  Shannon: And when we look at our immune system and how the body does keep the score, when we are flooded with stress hormones over and over again all day, every day, we literally are drinking poison and our body is being toxically affected by this relationship.
• 9:49
  Shannon: So that's the difference.
• 9:51
  Shannon: You know, some things can be just unhealthy, you're right.
• 9:54
  Shannon: Other things are literally killing you.
• 9:57
  Shannon: Mm-hmm.
• 9:59
  Mary: So you talked about Bessel van der Kolk with the Body Keeps the Score.
• 10:04
  Mary: It might be a book people have heard of, maybe not, but it's really.
• 10:09
  Mary: I'm going to simplify it in an amazing amount, but it's about how our experiences are held in our body and we especially, I think, in the West, we think our body is one thing, our mind is another and even sometimes our heart and our spirit are other.
• 10:25
  Mary: So sometimes four things, but really anything perpetrated upon us or anything we experience, and I'm going to say I'll use the word trauma, but also traumatic events.
• 10:38
  Mary: And again, there we have, I think, a continuum.
• 10:41
  Mary: Trauma is not necessarily, or a traumatic event is not necessarily a severe trauma, but it affects us.
• 10:47
  Mary: A loss, a loss of a pet, a loss of a loved one, a loss of a job, and these are all things that we hold in our body.
• 10:54
  Mary: And I think people well, from where I sit, people don't recognize that a lot of times our physical ailments are a manifestation of what has happened to us emotionally.
• 11:07
  Shannon: Yeah, very definitely, and the information and the research on it that Bessel and many, many others have done is really intriguing.
• 11:17
  Shannon: And the importance of reading books like that or noticing that or talking about that, is that it helps us to validate our experience and to understand why we are physically unhealthy as a result of this relationship.
• 11:37
  Shannon: And I've had people come to my practice and say, well, I have anxiety and depression.
• 11:43
  Shannon: I'm like, okay, so then we talk about their lives.
• 11:46
  Shannon: It's like, well, holy crap, I'd be anxious and depressed if I live with that person too.
• 11:51
  Shannon: Like, of course, but it isn't that you have this illness called anxiety and depression.
• 11:58
  Shannon: It's that you live in this incredibly unhealthy, toxic environment where this person is doing micro and macro aggressions 24-7 and you feel backed into a corner and you grew up with that, so you don't know how to work yourself out of it.
• 12:17
  Shannon: You're in a constant freeze mode and so we have to look at how that fight and so we have to look at how that fight, flight or freeze mechanism gets unstuck.
• 12:29
  Shannon: So that you know, we brought that with us from childhood.
• 12:31
  Shannon: Now we're living it and it's stuck on screech and we're constantly being flooded with these poisons that our bodies and our minds were not designed to take 24-7.
• 12:46
  Shannon: They were designed to take that once in a blue moon, when a cheetah is chasing you down the jungle canopy, but that's it.
• 12:53
  Shannon: So we have to recognize it becomes a physiological reality that it can kill you, destroys your immune system, it destroys your functionality, your resilience, your all of it.
• 13:12
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:14
  Mary: And you know, I think we don't also recognize, sometimes cognitively, what's happening.
• 13:22
  Mary: So for we register micro expressions somewhere in our body, you know, we know we read that, but we don't always, it doesn't always connect to our brain.
• 13:33
  Mary: So sometimes we're like why am I so stressed out?
• 13:36
  Mary: Why does this person, you know, create so much anxiety?
• 13:39
  Mary: Well, somewhere in your body, probably your amygdala, which has been trained to spot difficulties, recognizes a pattern.
• 13:47
  Mary: And so when you're talking about this chronic stress and what people don't really sometimes understand is we are made to experience stress and have that sympathetic nervous system response and then de-escalate.
• 14:03
  Mary: The parasympathetic, which calms us down, is supposed to get its turn.
• 14:08
  Mary: But when we're in these chronic situations we don't have that ability a lot of times.
• 14:15
  Mary: So it's like putting your car up on blocks and then slamming your foot down on the gas.
• 14:21
  Mary: It's like you're not getting anywhere but you're just revving your engine.
• 14:26
  Mary: So when you see this in someone, how do you start to undo some of that?
• 14:34
  Shannon: You know the education piece is just critical.
• 14:37
  Shannon: For starters, some of the videos that I've done, and certainly in my work, I say you know, so you're done with the toxic X and you still feel terrible.
• 14:48
  Shannon: And then talking about how we have these three parts of our brain and you're, you know, you kind of alluded to that, the triune brain, and yes, there's a lot of nuance around that, I'm not going to get lost in the weeds.
• 15:04
  Shannon: But basically that fight, flight or freeze response.
• 15:07
  Shannon: Then the emotional brain which feeds that, sometimes positively to calm it down, sometimes negatively by ramping it up.
• 15:16
  Shannon: And then we have our rational mind, no-transcript by fight, flight or freeze, and then to calm that down and then use our rational mind.
• 15:43
  Shannon: So people will say I just feel crazy, I think I've got Alzheimer's, I think I can't function anymore, I can't make decisions.
• 15:53
  Shannon: That's true, that's literally true, because your rational mind is offline when you are constantly on screech.
• 16:01
  Shannon: So we have to calm down.
• 16:04
  Shannon: We have to notice the three parts Calm down the amygdala by finding safety within ourselves and in our environment.
• 16:13
  Shannon: Calm down the emotional reactivity which is feeding that and teach it to calm it down instead of ramp it up.
• 16:21
  Shannon: And then notice the rational mind and in my book I talk about how clarity is the first letter of clear, where you need to, like take a rational inventory of this relationship, of how you're doing, how you've been since you've been with this person, what this looks like really in concrete terms, what everybody's telling you that you don't want to hear and you're arguing with, and so get that clarity, write it down and make a rational decision.
• 16:54
  Shannon: I need to get done with this relationship or I need to create really good boundaries and see what happens, because sometimes we haven't done that step yet and then that rational mind gets online and then you can kind of drag the emotional mind along because you're trauma bonded to that person.
• 17:12
  Shannon: You're going to react to their reactions to you, saying I don't want to do this anymore, and then they're going to bring out know, bring out all the hooks and all the drama.
• 17:25
  Shannon: So you have to know, okay, that's going to happen.
• 17:29
  Shannon: I'm going to watch that circus from a distance.
• 17:31
  Shannon: I'm going to keep myself on track with the rational decision I made and know that my emotional mind is going to go crazy.
• 17:39
  Shannon: Even my alarm system that's all faulty is going to go crazy, but I'm going to do what I know I need to do anyway.
• 17:50
  Mary: Yeah, I want to circle back on something too that's sort of at the beginning of all of this, and that is we are attracted to what we know.
• 17:59
  Mary: So I recently visited somebody at work and they work somewhere where there's very strong chemical smell and it almost knocked me over.
• 18:06
  Mary: They don't smell it anymore.
• 18:08
  Mary: So it's kind of like this idea of olfactory fatigue.
• 18:10
  Mary: You don't smell the scent of your own home because you're in it all the time.
• 18:15
  Mary: We don't have that perception anymore.
• 18:18
  Mary: So I think, well, I remember having some of my college students and I loved working with them because they're just sort of coming into this space where they're very independent, and they would say to me I keep attracting these same people.
• 18:31
  Mary: Why does this happen?
• 18:32
  Mary: And I said, well, it's like you live in a city that is so noisy and now you're trying to find a place that's quiet and your mind doesn't know what to do with that quiet.
• 18:44
  Mary: So I think we literally have to help them rewire that, because they understand it's not healthy, but it's familiar and the unfamiliar sometimes seems scarier seems scarier.
• 19:04
  Shannon: Yes, and it's complicated, because one of the things that Bessel talks about that I think is extremely true is, whatever we grow up with, it isn't just what happened, it's how we storied it.
• 19:10
  Shannon: So you know, when people grow up in chaos, some of the kids in that home will become part of the wallpaper.
• 19:20
  Shannon: They decided that their best defense was just to be completely invisible.
• 19:26
  Shannon: So that person is kind of frozen in their life and they tend to be frozen in their lives and in all their relationships.
• 19:34
  Shannon: Then there might be another one who you know acted out and was very aggressive and very like attention seeking in order to survive.
• 19:44
  Shannon: So, and then there was another one who was placating and people pleasing and peacekeeping.
• 19:50
  Shannon: Usually, the therapist end up being a therapist and often end up being with people who want somebody who will placate them, who will people-please them and who will peace-keep them.
• 20:05
  Shannon: And that was one of my earliest videos was called the Narcissist and the Empathic Person a Tragically Perfect Match, and it is that we resonate with people we can save and placate and peacekeep, somebody who wants that in us instead of somebody who fulfills us and is an equal partner.
• 20:31
  Shannon: So we resonate with that.
• 20:34
  Shannon: They resonate with that because they're like, oh heck, yeah, I want that, yeah, and so it's this perfect enmeshment.
• 20:43
  Shannon: That is really hard to break and you know, I'll typically hear somebody say I love them.
• 20:50
  Shannon: Well, you're attached to them.
• 20:53
  Shannon: But let's talk about what love is, and you know, love is patient and kind and caring and not boastful and not selfish, and it's a person who sees you and keeps you safe emotionally.
• 21:12
  Shannon: They care about your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs, those basic basic things.
• 21:19
  Shannon: And if you talk to somebody about that and they go, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope nope, nope, nope, nope nope, that isn't love, it's attachment, and that's fine.
• 21:31
  Shannon: But let's call it what it is, because that isn't love.
• 21:37
  Mary: I think, because we paint love as and you know you mentioned narratives in your information like how and that's.
• 21:48
  Mary: I talk about that all the time these negative narratives or what we tell ourselves and I think society paints love as this topsy-turvy, really intense.
• 21:54
  Mary: You know it's all about.
• 21:56
  Mary: You know you meet somebody and it's always love at first sight and you know it's sometimes these ups and downs and fights and yes, there's ups and downs.
• 22:02
  Mary: Always love at first sight and you know it's sometimes these ups and downs and fights and, yes, there's ups and downs but love doesn't typically hurt.
• 22:08
  Mary: Often it doesn't make you abandon yourself.
• 22:10
  Mary: It's not unsettling, but I think we get so used to this idea of it's supposed to feel this way that we're not sure how to find something different.
• 22:24
  Shannon: Especially if we grew up looking at that and that was our role model, then we definitely don't have a perspective that keeps us safe and we do tend to set ourselves up for relationships that are unhealthy or even toxic.
• 22:43
  Shannon: And again, what's important is that we recognize that, we step back from it.
• 22:49
  Shannon: We recognize, well, I would never speak to somebody that way, I would never treat someone that way, I would never hurt someone that way, and I need to stop allowing that from someone else and stop doing it to myself, because the other weird thing is that we train ourselves.
• 23:08
  Shannon: You talked about the subtle that we're reading everybody and all those subtle nuances.
• 23:15
  Shannon: Well, what's amazing is that people who are very self-centered are very self-absorbed, don't care about your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs, only care about their own and believe in their heart and soul that those are the only ones that do matter yours don't.
• 23:35
  Shannon: Those people do a lot of these subtle microaggressions and also the macroaggressions, but they will use the least amount of aggression or tantrum, if you will to get the response they want, and so they're going to teach you I don't like that, I do like this, I like it when you do this, I don't like it when you do that, and it's a lot of different things, like isolating you.
• 24:07
  Shannon: They'll throw a little mini tantrum when you want to go spend time with your family or your friends Well, I guess you don't care about me, like I care about you, or they'll ghost you for a day, or you know.
• 24:19
  Shannon: So all these different nuanced things train you to then train yourself, because this love bombing feels so good, so you want to get back to that and they're always giving you these little messages about how you can fix that and make it back to that, which isn't even true or accurate and it's all a ruse.
• 24:40
  Shannon: So the really dangerous part is that we train ourselves, so they've set that in motion, but then we take it on and we have to undo all that damage because we have to recognize I can't fix that, I can't change them, I've done everything, been as perfect as I could be, and that's just sick.
• 25:04
  Shannon: That's just not what I need to be doing in a relationship.
• 25:09
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, I think we sometimes need to earn love and, yeah, you're right, certain people teach us here's how you earn the A and they mold us and we allow that.
• 25:20
  Mary: So I want to talk a little about this idea of wanting to have a label for something and people sort of throwing this narcissist label onto people.
• 25:32
  Mary: So can you tell us a little bit about what really it is to be a narcissist?
• 25:38
  Mary: And maybe also we don't want to discount that there are a lot of people that recognize that it is perhaps to the level of toxicity their relationship.
• 25:48
  Mary: However, there might not be the label.
• 25:52
  Mary: We don't know what the label is.
• 25:54
  Mary: But, yeah, could we start with what really is narcissism and then expand however you feel like you need to from that?
• 26:03
  Shannon: narcissism and then expand however you feel like you need to from that.
• 26:05
  Shannon: Yeah, and that's so important because it has become so weaponized.
• 26:07
  Shannon: You know, one of my first jobs was at a battered women's shelter and we never talked about narcissism, we just talked about abuse.
• 26:13
  Shannon: But the essence of a narcissist is that they don't have a solid internal sense of self.
• 26:20
  Shannon: It's all an external shell.
• 26:22
  Shannon: I talk about in one of my videos, the narcissistic collapse which I use the analogy of a hot air balloon.
• 26:31
  Shannon: If you don't pump that hot air balloon with hot air all the time, it implodes and then it explodes.
• 26:38
  Shannon: And that's very much like what a narcissist is like.
• 26:42
  Shannon: They have this kind of empty sense of self that's just not well formed, it's not a solid sense of who you are.
• 26:50
  Shannon: If you think about people who are sort of have that emptiness and they have to be constantly pumped up and have to be constantly sort of propped up and when they're not, then they implode and explode and you see, that kind of behavior that happens in that extreme is narcissistic trait and a very narcissistic trait.
• 27:19
  Shannon: Um, I think when we feel good about ourselves, when we know who we are, we know our character, we know that we kind of respect and like those values and qualities in ourselves.
• 27:32
  Shannon: We don't have to boast and we don't have to be puffed up and we don't need everybody to pay attention to us all the time.
• 27:37
  Shannon: We don't have to boast and we don't have to be puffed up and we don't need everybody to pay attention to us all the time.
• 27:39
  Shannon: We don't have to take up all the air in the room.
• 27:41
  Shannon: That's just not a thing.
• 27:44
  Shannon: So I think you can sense it when you look at it that way.
• 27:51
  Shannon: In essence, their thoughts, feelings, wants and needs matter and yours don't.
• 27:55
  Shannon: They don't take responsibility for their actions.
• 27:58
  Shannon: They have a very superficial view of people, of themselves.
• 28:06
  Shannon: So they are all about appearances, money, status, and they don't look at the deeper character qualities.
• 28:14
  Shannon: They're very dishonest, they're very non-empathic.
• 28:18
  Shannon: They can tell you what you want to hear and not mean it.
• 28:22
  Shannon: So you have to look at their actions.
• 28:24
  Shannon: They can say how empathic they are, but then they turn around and share a story about how funny it was when someone got really, really emotionally or physically hurt.
• 28:34
  Shannon: So noticing all these things, it's really important.
• 28:37
  Shannon: Behavior speaks louder than words and we have to recognize that and they will.
• 28:45
  Shannon: When they get disappointed or upset or mad.
• 28:48
  Shannon: They go right for the jugular.
• 28:51
  Shannon: They're not a hey, we need to talk about this.
• 28:54
  Shannon: They bring up your deepest, darkest, most painful place in your heart and soul and they throw it in your face and they blow up.
• 29:04
  Shannon: You know they don't have conversations, they drop grenades in the room and that is kind of another thing that you can notice and go huh that's not good.
• 29:19
  Mary: Well and you bring up a good point is sometimes the barometer is what I treat someone that I love like this and that can help you step back and, you know, be able to be a tiny bit more objective.
• 29:31
  Mary: So you're talking about something that I want to kind of tease apart, something because I recently did a mini episode on sociopaths and also was a guest on a show where I talked about this and I had somebody respond to me when I talked about sociopaths a little bit, calling me out that they're people too, and by saying they, it sort of makes this boundary between you know, the people that are normal and sociopaths.
• 30:02
  Mary: So first I think and you can sort of debate this with me I think we get muddied when we try to think what's a sociopath, what's a narcissist, what's a psychopath, and even experts in those areas don't know that.
• 30:15
  Mary: The tests to determine it are very widely.
• 30:20
  Mary: But I think the other part of that is understanding, and this goes back to the labels.
• 30:26
  Mary: We don't need to label someone to know that we feel crappy when we try to have a relationship with them.
• 30:34
  Mary: So I just want to put a little asterisk on that because I think, as we're talking that, when we're saying as therapists, they, some people look at that and say, well, you're being insensitive because they're people.
• 30:46
  Mary: And now there are memoirs written by sociopaths which I've just read too.
• 30:50
  Mary: It's very, very interesting because it comes from a place of saying I've been misunderstood my whole life and, yes, I get that.
• 30:59
  Mary: But I think you and I both know that very rarely do true people with true antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder.
• 31:09
  Mary: They often don't end up in therapy, and there's a reason for that Right.
• 31:17
  Shannon: And the diagnostic stuff?
• 31:18
  Shannon: You're right.
• 31:19
  Shannon: A diagnosis is only a way to describe a cluster of symptoms and so people think that it's got some magical aha, and it really isn't, it's muddy, and it really isn't it's muddy.
• 31:37
  Shannon: Typically people have these traits and those traits.
• 31:40
  Shannon: They can have an underlying mood disorder that then they have the personality disorder or traits.
• 31:45
  Shannon: Also, it can be mild, moderate or severe, and in the severe range you have a lot of delusion and that's really important.
• 31:55
  Shannon: So when you are looking at someone who seems to have a personality disorder, you also want to look at the level of delusion.
• 32:05
  Shannon: Like they, even in the, in the face of evidence, they will not come off of their belief, no matter what you know, you can say you know you were responsible for doing A, b or C.
• 32:20
  Shannon: Or you said A, b or C and they're like nope, did not.
• 32:25
  Shannon: And no matter what evidence you bring to bear, they don't believe you and they don't change.
• 32:31
  Shannon: That's a little over on this side, a little over on this side.
• 32:44
  Shannon: The delusion, sociopathy, really the dividing line is do they gain joy from hurting people or animals or do they lack empathy to the degree that they can really hurt somebody?
• 32:55
  Shannon: And or even, you know, take away their rights, so that oppression or that trapping someone, and so that's where that can become sort of over that line into sociopathic, when someone traps somebody to the degree that they really don't believe that that person has a right to exist outside of that relationship with them.
• 33:22
  Shannon: And I've seen that a lot of times too, and you're right, people with narcissism and sociopathy only show up in therapy with a partner, and they only show up as long as you're not taking them to task, and then they bolt.
• 33:41
  Mary: Yeah.
• 33:42
  Shannon: And they say that you sucked as a therapist.
• 33:46
  Mary: Which, thank you.
• 33:47
  Mary: That might be a compliment.
• 33:48
  Mary: Sometimes it means you're effective, right, that's right it means you told the truth.
• 33:53
  Mary: Yeah, and I think what a lot of people don't know is laypersons is a personality disorder is considered enduring and whereas something like major depressive disorder or generalized anxiety disorder, those can be transient.
• 34:08
  Mary: I mean, they're quite different and we used to when we did our diagnosis we would put a personality disorder like borderline narcissistic puts a personality disorder like borderline narcissistic, antisocial, they would go on to a different quote axis, which we don't do that anymore, but it was to show here's an enduring thing and it's kind of like saying someone prefers dogs to cats, they prefer these certain foods, they have even something like sometimes I a certain eye color.
• 34:37
  Mary: There are certain things part of your enduring traits that would be very difficult to change and I think that's sometimes where people and again, if they're self-diagnosing a lot of times I think people now self-diagnose I'm a sociopath because it's hard for me to understand someone else.
• 34:55
  Mary: Well, that could be a lot of other things me to understand someone else.
• 34:57
  Mary: Well, that could be a lot of other things.
• 34:59
  Mary: So I think you know, understanding that when you have someone in your life that, as you're saying, you can say here's exactly what happened.
• 35:11
  Mary: You could even I don't even know you could have a video and it'd be like yeah, no, that's AI, you didn't.
• 35:14
  Mary: You know that level of denial is not changeable.
• 35:16
  Mary: You know that level of denial is not changeable.
• 35:18
  Mary: And so I think, understanding that sometimes just because you love someone, you can love them and recognize that they had past trauma, whatever.
• 35:29
  Mary: That still doesn't mean you need to stay in that relationship.
• 35:34
  Shannon: Right, yeah, and it's so crucial to make that distinction.
• 35:55
  Shannon: You can love someone to wait until the love goes away or the empathy for them goes away before you leave.
• 36:01
  Shannon: You make a rational decision to leave to save yourself, and that's just super important.
• 36:07
  Shannon: But, yeah, the diagnostic stuff is really muddy and we just have to not get into diagnosing people that we don't know, that we don't, and it doesn't put them in a box that they can never get out of.
• 36:25
  Shannon: So here's the thing again, circling back around to starting from the inside out.
• 36:31
  Shannon: When you recognize that you might be in a toxic relationship what I always encourage people to do unless there's physical violence that you start to notice your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs and start to notice all the ways that you placate people, please and peace keep, and you start to do it differently.
• 36:55
  Shannon: So that looks like no, I don't really want to go out tonight.
• 36:59
  Shannon: I think I'll spend the night in my jammies and watching movies and then seeing what they do, watching movies and then seeing what they do.
• 37:10
  Shannon: Or I'm not going to listen to you when you start to escalate like that.
• 37:12
  Shannon: If you want to calm down, we can have a conversation later, or I'm going to head home because this just doesn't feel good.
• 37:17
  Shannon: It feels like I'm not heard.
• 37:20
  Shannon: And when people do that, sometimes the other person goes oh, I didn't know, that bothered you because you've never said anything.
• 37:27
  Shannon: True, you know, if I've spent the relationship being a placater, they don't know how I feel, they don't know what I think or want or need yeah, Valid.
• 37:38
  Shannon: And so there are some relationships that I've worked with where you would think this was absolutely unresolvable, where you would think this was absolutely unresolvable and yet that person loved that person so much that they noticed, recognized, changed their behavior and became an equal partner who cherished that person instead of being a bully and a selfish kind of person.
• 38:05
  Shannon: So we don't really know until we show up fully.
• 38:09
  Shannon: And you know, if you're new in a relationship, make sure that you're showing up fully, Make sure that you are not just going along for the ride, but you're saying what you think, feel, want and need and you're standing up for yourself and you're watching what that person does.
• 38:28
  Mary: If they throw little tantrums and little microaggressions and little ghostings and all that garbage, walk away sooner than later think, when we're getting into especially new romantic relationships, we think so much about you know first date, what should I wear, how should I act?
• 38:53
  Mary: And again, I worked with young people.
• 38:54
  Mary: They would say those things I'm like, you don't act, you are you.
• 38:56
  Mary: And then you're going to really find out if someone cares about you.
• 39:00
  Mary: I mean, the most powerful thing to me is when somebody sees you and loves you.
• 39:03
  Mary: So when you act or you placate or you go along, when does that end?
• 39:08
  Mary: And it sort of segues into and this is often women do the invisible labor of a relationship and it makes me think.
• 39:18
  Mary: And this is very simple, but I was recently remarried, within the last three years, and I realized I had this idea that I was supposed to plan dinner and I love cooking, but I hated that pressure.
• 39:32
  Mary: So the one day I said you know, I feel like I always have to plan dinner because what are you talking about?
• 39:37
  Mary: I thought you liked it.
• 39:38
  Mary: And so I think giving ourselves permission, especially as women, that no matter how long we've been in a relationship, if we're feeling discontent or it's uneven or there's a behavior we don't like and this was not his behavior, this was all me and what I was putting on myself, but I think you find out a lot.
• 39:57
  Mary: So if you put your foot down and you truly have someone that has a serious diagnosis, they're going to try to maintain the status quo, they're going to deny, they're going to push back.
• 40:11
  Mary: It's really good information you get from that.
• 40:16
  Shannon: Exactly, and that's why I always say boundaries always work.
• 40:20
  Shannon: Because people say, well, you don't understand, Boundaries don't work with this person.
• 40:23
  Shannon: No, they always work.
• 40:24
  Shannon: They either get a different response from that person and their relationship changes, or they give you the information you need to back away and protect yourself differently.
• 40:36
  Shannon: Because if that person doesn't respond in a positive way when you do talk about what you think, feel, want and need, If you need a little space and this relationship's moving too quickly and they have a little tantrum and ghost you and do all that stuff, or you know bigger stuff, like, yeah, I'm going to go spend time with my family, and they're like, well, that's just unacceptable, they're not good enough for you.
• 41:02
  Shannon: You know all those games that becomes.
• 41:05
  Shannon: If you placate that, then you are setting that template for the relationship and then the relationship down the line is a mess and you can clean it up and then see what happens.
• 41:20
  Shannon: But you have to emotionally step back and watch that circus.
• 41:24
  Shannon: Oh wow, he bounced or she bounced because women do this too.
• 41:29
  Shannon: I'm never going to say that in that way, because I've seen lots and lots of men in relationships with toxic and narcissistic women.
• 41:39
  Shannon: Oh wow, she or he bounced from anger to tears, back to anger, over to guilt, back to anger, over to tears, again, like it's this whack-a-mole thing.
• 41:59
  Mary: And you're just sitting there going all right, good information.
• 42:01
  Shannon: Don't want to play this game anymore.
• 42:02
  Shannon: All I said was blah, blah, blah, and they're freaking out Weird.
• 42:09
  Mary: Yeah, no, that's a really good point, because some of that you know the women and crying, you know, is it's sort of that.
• 42:16
  Mary: We a little bit against socialization, but I think men have been socialized.
• 42:21
  Mary: When a woman cries like you take care of it.
• 42:23
  Mary: But when you can step back and be like what is this pattern?
• 42:27
  Mary: You know what is happening here and I think boundaries are very hard and very confusing and I think many of us believe if I set a boundary, the other person's behavior is going to change.
• 42:39
  Mary: And that's not always what I mean.
• 42:42
  Mary: I think I tend to say what outcome do you want?
• 42:45
  Mary: If you're doing something to get an outcome of a behavior change in another person, you can't control that.
• 42:53
  Mary: But if you're setting a boundary because you need to create some space for yourself to be able to do what you're saying like, look at this relationship from a little bit of an objective eye, if you can, even if it means, I think, writing stuff down.
• 43:08
  Mary: Here's what happened.
• 43:09
  Mary: I felt this way, but this is the behavior I noticed.
• 43:12
  Mary: So you've given so many good little tidbits and gems today.
• 43:18
  Mary: So let's say somebody's listening, because we know how often when somebody's deep in something, how hard it is for them to like where do I even start?
• 43:27
  Mary: So, aside from finding a therapist, which again can seem daunting, but if somebody is listening, what?
• 43:34
  Mary: How would you say they can start to create this shift for themselves.
• 43:39
  Mary: Three to five things that maybe they can start to focus on to slowly kind of create a shift and a change in this situation for themselves.
• 43:49
  Shannon: Great question, and I think the first step is really to and I am a big proponent of journaling.
• 43:56
  Shannon: That's why my book is all about journaling and lots and lots of prompts to guide people through this.
• 44:03
  Shannon: Originally, when I did my channel, I didn't want to write a book.
• 44:07
  Shannon: I wanted to share information and strategies.
• 44:12
  Shannon: And then it became obvious that I wanted to write that book to help people who aren't going to have access to a therapist, or even who do, but want us, as an adjunct to to, really walk through the process of healing from the inside out, of noticing all of the games that people play and not letting those control you anymore.
• 44:37
  Shannon: So I think, journaling about what kind of relationship do I have within my own head?
• 44:42
  Shannon: I would never speak that way to a friend.
• 44:45
  Shannon: Why do I allow myself to speak that way to myself every time I have a hard time?
• 44:50
  Shannon: And starting to become your own best friend, starting to notice the things that are going on in your relationships, starting to notice what you think, feel, want and need and start to stand up for that.
• 45:02
  Shannon: See what happens journal about that.
• 45:05
  Shannon: See what happens Journal about that.
• 45:06
  Shannon: And then you know, gradually take your life back and rebuild.
• 45:18
  Shannon: A lot of times, when people come out of a toxic relationship, they wander right back into one, because they haven't rebuilt and we even have to rebuild, you know, our social connections, our dreams and aspirations, our, our, our dreams and aspirations are all of these things went, got buried and went by the wayside, and we need to reclaim them and and bring them forward into our lives again and maybe even rebuild our social connections, because we had been isolated from friends and family by that person.
• 45:46
  Shannon: So we, we have a lot to do.
• 45:50
  Mary: Yeah Well, I like you talking about reigniting dreams, because sometimes when we're in a situation for a certain amount of time, it can be very hard to even create those neural connections again, that idea of what's possible, and so that can be another thing to journal about.
• 46:06
  Mary: You know, what do you envision?
• 46:08
  Mary: Because that is sort of like a sports psychology thing, and envisioning yourself doing it makes it more likely you're going to be able to do it.
• 46:17
  Mary: This situation can also help give hope and reset some of, I think, that limbic, that emotional system, that amygdala reaction, because you're thinking in terms of hopefulness.
• 46:38
  Shannon: Absolutely.
• 46:39
  Mary: Yeah, well, this has been such a great conversation.
• 46:43
  Mary: Like I said, I love being able to talk to a fellow therapist because we can really dig into some things.
• 46:48
  Mary: So tell everyone again where they can find you and what you have to offer, please.
• 46:54
  Shannon: Okay, thanks so much for having me, mary, and I love talking to fellow therapists too.
• 46:59
  Shannon: It's such a rich experience.
• 47:01
  Shannon: So healfromtoxicrelationshipscom is my sort of a landing page for my coaching program.
• 47:10
  Shannon: I have group coaching but also do individual with men and women.
• 47:14
  Shannon: I do a group for women and I have also my book is Out of the Fog Into the Clear Journaling to Help you Heal from Toxic Relationships.
• 47:27
  Shannon: It's on Amazon and Kindle.
• 47:29
  Shannon: And the other thing is the YouTube channel Therapist Talks Thrive Beyond Narcissism.
• 47:39
  Shannon: So there are lots of different types of resources depending on what people need.
• 47:43
  Shannon: I've tried to kind of cover all the bases.
• 47:46
  Shannon: So if someone wants extra individual help, I also have a video series of in-depth videos with my coaching program and that's available to really help people dig deeply into it and do individual coaching on top of that or group on top of that.
• 48:09
  Mary: Okay, lots of good stuff I'm going to link all of.
• 48:13
  Mary: I'll link your website in the show notes because I'm guessing you can jump off from there to your YouTube channel and your find your book.
• 48:21
  Mary: And I'm sure you can find your book on Amazon.
• 48:23
  Mary: You know, the clearinghouse of everything.
• 48:25
  Mary: So, yeah, so thanks again for being here, and I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 48:31
  Mary: Please take a few seconds to give me a quick rating, because every time someone does that, it helps me show up for other people when they search for my topics.
• 48:41
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violets that you are.
• 48:47
  Mary: Thank you.