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What To Do With Non-Members · The Reformatory

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[SPEAKER_01]: What do you got for me?
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[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory of the podcast for the local church and by the local church and I
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[SPEAKER_00]: And one of your local churchmen, yes, that's right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have another solo week.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you guys to start thinking that this is going to turn into the reformatory briefing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's not, I promise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We just had as tens to happen at the end of summer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: there's always that kind of last push that last busy push where everyone's trying to get how stuff done they're going on vacations last minute preparations for the school season and the fall is coming so there's still stuff on the mind for that
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is a situation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: With this week, Jack, our very faithful navigator, the captain, is out this week, getting time to record just was really difficult.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It started out as my fault, Monday, which is our normal recording time was Labor Day, and I was actually laboring on Labor Day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I had a long, long day in which it was a, yeah, thirteen,
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[SPEAKER_00]: there's like a thirteen fourteen hour day so I wasn't able to make our regular recording time so that's on me and then kind of the rest of the week as tends to happen just resulted in no time being done so
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[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of having no episode, we're doing another quick Josh soloing than episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to rock this and not because we like it, but because we still want to be able to give you guys something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully something even if it's solo is better than nothing, that's kind of the idea.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully this is encouraging something that I wanted to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that has been on my mind recently.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's always an interesting conversation, because depending on who you talk to with these types of things, you'll get different responses, you'll get different answers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is regarding the topic or the question rather of what do we do as pastors, as church members, what do we do with
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[SPEAKER_00]: non-members, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: As it is the case in any local church that practices a biblical church membership, you're going to have those that are within your membership and those that are not, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the reform Baptist tradition, where congregational in that our membership is comprised of individuals, men and women,
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[SPEAKER_00]: that are brought in upon their profession of faith.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Those have been baptized upon a profession of faith and the membership votes on their induction, if you will.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And church membership is a very sweet, a very biblical, a very encouraging and safety-filled thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we've talked so much on this podcast about the importance of church membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What we love about it, the benefits that come with it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But there's often not a lot of talk regarding how we are to interact with those in our local church that are not members.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you're always going to have those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're always going to have those individuals that come through the doors that are either looking for churches, come from other churches, and are checking the church out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's always kind of that time where they've arrived.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like they're going to stick around for a while.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're getting to know things, but they're not into the church membership yet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you also got those situations of those individuals for one reason or another and we will actually get into some of those that have been at your local church for a long time and have not come into the membership haven't entertained that idea
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[SPEAKER_00]: for one reason or another have not made the step into committing to that local church even though that they are faithfully attending they are not faithfully committing right so you're always going to have individuals in your church that for one reason or another aren't in the membership and it's important that I think we have good conversations and a good outlook of how do we interact with these types of individuals and does
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[SPEAKER_00]: different situations regarding the details of their non-committal dictate different responses.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it does.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it really does come down to so much of the conversation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think comes down to why have they not at this point committed to the membership of the local church?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a question that we have to ask.
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[SPEAKER_00]: because the answer to that question is going to dictate how I respond to that as a pastor and how I react to that, how I interact with the person and what my demeanor toward that will be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, obviously, in all of these things, our demeanor doesn't change from being a grace filled
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[SPEAKER_00]: humility, driven, you know, sheep protecting demeanor, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't just get to, because someone doesn't want to be a member, all of a sudden throw away all of the ways that we are supposed to interact with people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We don't, we don't do that, right, obviously.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But different situations call for different responses.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's important to understand, and we're going to get into some of those, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So something that I always tell
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[SPEAKER_00]: individuals that are coming to our church that are interested in getting to know the church and maybe you know you have those individuals that it'll be their first Sunday right and they're already talking to you by membership be like yeah we saw you guys online we listen to some sermons that's usually how it goes right we're looking for a church that kind of aligns with our our our our our theological beliefs and we we want to join the membership that's that's what we want to do all right
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[SPEAKER_00]: off off of the rip.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it always causes me a little bit of pause because I think that there is great wisdom in when you are seeking to join a church, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Doing more research about that church than simply just listening to some sermons because although
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[SPEAKER_00]: what is preached from the pulpit is paramount and and I would say
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[SPEAKER_00]: the first thing that you should be considering when joining that church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is not the only thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there are many things that would make a church unhealthy that you cannot tell from the pulpit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's plenty of churches out there that have a great pulpit ministry, if you will, if the preacher is very talented, they are very theologically sound.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They preach a correct gospel-centered sermon, but the health of the church
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[SPEAKER_00]: is in shambles.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the community life is not where it needs to be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the church is there's there's clicks and factions, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Simply a church that has good sermons or is able to to produce a good biblical pulpit ministry.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is vital, but it is not the only thing that we should be looking for in a biblical church, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when members, excuse me, when visitors show up and want to join the membership, it's something that I'm very wary of, not wary in a bad way, but it's important to understand that as a local church, when you are bringing someone into membership, you're doing so with the understanding that they have been
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[SPEAKER_00]: they've been vetted, they've been talked to, their conduct has been seen, their professional faith has been confirmed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not just by the pastors, but the other members, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the really great benefits of having a reformed Baptist congregational polity, is that that responsibility does not fall just on the pastors.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the primary job of the pastors to put forth those people, but the responsibility to get to know those members to vet them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: is the responsibility of the congregation because you have to make sure that you are casting your vote with a good conscience and an informed opinion.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we need time to get to know you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm speaking to the perspective member here, the visitor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you're here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to be here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you are not wanting to be flaky and you're wanting to join the church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that that's a priority for you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to jump into that right away because we need some time for us to get to know you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, for you to get to know us, it's awesome that you have listened to the sermons and you've engaged with it that way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's really good.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's encouraging.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's no red flags there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But let's take our time and taking our time with church membership, just like any worthwhile relationship is not a bad thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I do think it can stretch on too long as we'll talk about a little later.
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[SPEAKER_00]: but there's nothing wrong with taking your time, getting to know us as a church and letting our church get to know you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: as perspective members.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we should be okay with that process taking the time that it needs to in order for all parties to be comfortable and all parties to be sure as sure as we can.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is going to be a good fit, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because maybe, you know, the few sermons that you listen to, you enjoyed, but you can only learn so much about a church from a futurey pick sermons, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: we've had people come into our church who have been here for months and then we'll be preaching a particular sermon where we really, you know, really, really emphasize because it's in the text, you know, covenantal theology, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they're a gast, they're like, wait, wait, you're preaching from a covenantal standpoint.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're like, well, yeah, of course, we've been doing that this whole time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And a month in, they're surprised about it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to take your time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay for that process to take time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let them get to know you and give yourself time as a church, as a congregation, to get to know them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if those expectations are clearly communicated at the front, it'll go smoothly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Bring them in the membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be a joy all around.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be awesome.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let it take time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: During this time,
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[SPEAKER_00]: as pastors make sure to be available for these people, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Make yourself available to answer their questions to clear up any possible assumptions that they may have, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Give yourself time to, again,
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[SPEAKER_00]: vet them, get to know them, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hear their professional faith, talk through their theological distinctives, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Talk through the positions of the church and their personal positions and see if there's conflict there, all that stuff, all that stuff is good and it needs to happen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you have a good membership process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Is it really helps kind of weed all that out?
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[SPEAKER_00]: But make sure that while you are doing that,
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[SPEAKER_00]: that your priority is still the members of your local church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because that is our priority.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now again, we love visitors, we love answering questions and being available for new folks that come through the doors, but my priority is a pastor is still to the people of my church, those that are in that membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is still my priority.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's that balance and sometimes the balance is hard to find depending on the season ministry that you're in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's that balance of being available, wanting to be available, but also prioritizing your people and not sacrificing the care of your people for time spent with perspective members again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a balance of both.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not sacrificing one or the other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's having time to do both of those things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And again, not the point of the podcast, but that's where a plurality of elders really comes in handy, because you guys can share the load and split those responsibilities, divvy it up, and it makes it a lot easier.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Love visitors, love new members coming in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get into some reasons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, here, I'm actually going to do this first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do with the individual who has been at your church for a long time and has at least at this point no desire to interact with the prospect of membership?
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've had those things, and it's something that every church has, I think.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to make sure that you deal with it very, very gracefully, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I remember being early on in ministry when I was going through training, pastoral training.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the guys who had been a pastor for a while told me a story about a guy that had mentored him who had a one-year policy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He had a one year policy in that he gave him one year.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if in that year, they did not have a desire to join the membership, then he told them it would be best for them to probably find a place to worship elsewhere, because obviously this church wasn't it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I share that story as a rule, obviously.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But as an example of a good concept, I do not advocate putting a timeline on people's process in membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's helpful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like cookie cutter methods when it comes to discipleship because every person is different and part of being a good pastor is that you
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[SPEAKER_00]: learn how to pastor different people differently.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be the same principles, but it'll be applied differently because people are different, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same with discipleship.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same with perspective members.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You'll have lots of different reasons for why people aren't joining the membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We will get in, we'll be closing the podcast with those and how to how to work through some of those in a minute here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I would say this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: because what we believe about membership, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I believe that membership is one biblical, the biblical thing to do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's something that we should be doing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I also believe it's so beneficial for the life of the Christian that there is so much health that comes from being part of a church body.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Being part of a formal membership is so good for the soul of the Christian.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that accountability, that community, that encouragement, that being a part of something that is outside and bigger of yourself, that commitment, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just enjoying the benefits of a relationship.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's committing to the relationship, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want every Christian to have that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because that is my desire, truly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is my desire for every person that comes through the doors of our church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If that can be found here at our church, if that can be found at Redeemer, praise the Lord.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to experience that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to join the membership and gain all of the benefits that the membership gives.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If we have an individual or a couple or a family or whatever it is that is attending Redeemer for a long time, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no desire to be part of the membership when they're approached with the idea of membership, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of held at arms length.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's really not a desire to have that conversation or to press into those conversations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're content just to be in the pew, just to show up on Sunday, receive the benefits of being in the church, but not a part of the church, and then leave, and they're content with that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At that point, I do think some more pointed conversations are warranted.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, not in the spirit of, you know, join up or get out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's in the spirit of, hey, I think that membership in a local church is so good for the Christian.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want you as my brother and sister in Christ to experience that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want that for you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to think it's probably not here for one reason or another.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So can I help you find a place where that can be a reality for you?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I found that approaching it from that angle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One, it gets to the point.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're getting to the point without coming out and just saying, hey, if you're not going to sign up here, then you need to leave.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the point.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it does promote the urgency of the situation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, too, I think it reveals the shepard's heart behind that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That my motive is not that
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[SPEAKER_00]: you would just quickly sign up or leave.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My motive is that I love you and I care for you and I want you to be part of a local church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So how can I help with that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can we start those conversations about joining here?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Or are there some hang-ups or things that are preventing you from joining here that maybe it'd be a better fit elsewhere where those hang-ups aren't present, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's good to have the conversations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Don't avoid the conversations, but just make sure that those conversations are coming from a place of shepherding not a place of frustration with the people, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's a lot of different reasons why people might be hesitant to join the membership of a local church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some are not good reasons, or biblical reasons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And some are very valid that require a very delicate and graceful approach when walking with those people through those things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're going to get into right now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In my experience,
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've come across three main reasons why individuals will not join the membership of the church.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you can think of more, maybe some of those would be subcategories in these three reasons that I'm going to list here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't make these up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: These are just things that I have experienced being in pastoral ministry and talking to a lot of people and my own experience of going through really tough church stuff and not really wanting to press in for one reason or another.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So some reasons not to join a church that I have experienced with
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[SPEAKER_00]: people that are visiting a church that I have been a pastor of.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The first one is ignorance.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's not a wear of the biblical reasons for church membership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they've never heard of church membership before.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's just a foreign concept for them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're not aware of the biblical and theological reasons why we say formal church membership is a good thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, that's very, very true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of people out there that don't have the background of of of a biblical, uh, a biblical ecclesiology.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They just don't have it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that they were raised with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So church membership to them probably sounds like this super old, funny, formal thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they've never been walked through the depth and the richness that church membership brings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's valid.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's valid.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's I wouldn't say that's so much on them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's an opportunity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's an opportunity for for you as the pastors and you as the members to come alongside those people and say, hey, let me walk you through why membership so good.
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[SPEAKER_00]: why we see it in the Bible, where we see it in the Bible, and why we want that for you, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So with those people that are not joining the Church out of ignorance, make sure to be patient, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: We are not born theological titans, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You believe what you believe because someone was patient enough
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[SPEAKER_00]: to walk you through those things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So show that same patience with those people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's important to remember.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to be okay with committing to that process of informing those individuals of walking them through those things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Even if that process takes time, again, convictions formed through scripture often take time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All right, those are often actually better than the flash and the pan convictions that will change, you know, the next week, right, the best convictions, the firmest convictions are formed over time, tested time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So be fine with, with walking with those into the philosophy of that process, even if it takes some time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and don't forget to encourage pressing into the process, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if they're there to the point, again, they've visited the church, they've been there a while, they've gotten to know us, we've gotten to know them, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's been six months or so, you know, again, I'm not putting a time line on it because everyone's different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and every church is different, but it's been some time, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we're saying, hey, you know, you've been here a while.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've gotten to know you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We like you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You've gotten to know us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You seem to like us because you're still here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's have this conversation, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's continue to press into this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's not let it sit, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's not let it just just collect dust on the shelf.
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[SPEAKER_00]: because this is important.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's continue to have this dialogue, continue to have this conversation, and encourage that continual dialogue.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As long as they're willing to have that dialogue, I'm willing to have it with them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The minute that dialogue stops, or grows stale, or they
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[SPEAKER_00]: hold that dialogue as at arms length like the like the situation that we already talked about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's when the conversation changes a little bit for sure, but as long as they're willing to have it and they're asking questions and they're engaging and we're moving toward it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fine with that process taking as long as it needs to.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We've had some individuals that joined our membership very quickly because they were theologically aligned, right?
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They did a very, they were very diligent to press in, to get to know people to be known.
25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And we brought them in very quickly.
25:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We've had some individuals that we had to walk through what membership looked like theological differences for like a year and a half, two years.
25:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Every situation is different.
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't cookie cutter your discipleship when it comes to local church ministry, right?
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay for that process to take a while.
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: As long as it's not gathering dust and there's intentionality on their part,
25:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fine with a take in a while and that's okay.
25:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So ignorance is the first one, right?
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And be patient with that.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Second one, and this is a big one.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Past pain, right?
26:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Church or to big thing.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of individuals that have had really bad experiences with membership that have been in membership situations with leadership that's been abusive, tyrannical, and being a member has resulted in them
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: either getting extreme, extreme burnout because there wasn't systems in place for those that served to not get burned out.
26:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So they view membership as synonymous with serving and service as synonymous with burnout.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's bad, right?
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: They've come from situations where they were spiritually abused in the local church by the leadership, right?
26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big one.
26:46
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something I've experienced my wife and I've experienced.
26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: We've experienced that twinge of, I don't know if I want to jump back in right now because the truth of it is, you know, you, you reach out to feed that dog multiple times and if you bite you every time, pretty soon, you're not going to want to reach out, right?
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So past pain is a big reason why a lot of people don't want to join membership of a local church because they're scared.
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They're scared of getting hurt again.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They're scared of that reality that if I press into this church and I get to know a lot of people and I become close with people and the same thing happens, there's more people that I have gotten really close to that's ripped away from me and that really hurts.
27:28
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a reality.
27:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a big reason why a lot of people don't want to join is because they're scared of being hurt again.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where being intentional in our shepherding and in our grace really really comes into play.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where that not having a cookie cutter, a discipleship method is really important because it's good in that time to encourage a slow process.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: If I have people coming into a demer that I know are coming from a really bad church experience, I encourage a slow process.
28:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And most of the time I see the relief in the eyes when I tell them, hey, I realize you're coming from something that was really painful and something that hurt a lot were really glad that you're here.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's be content with you being here and breathing and healing from the situation.
28:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me meet with you and see how you're doing.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's meet consistently and walk through those things and see if this is the place that is best for you.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: If all Redeemer is for you as a place where you can heal and the Lord calls you so more than praise the Lord for that.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's take our time with the process.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to just expect you to trust us with your membership right out of the gate that would be insane.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really helpful for people to hear that are coming into the church from a really hurtful experience.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's to acknowledge that trust is earned and committing to a membership requires trust.
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: requires trust on both sides.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to be willing to walk through the process of earning that couples trust or that person's trust, because their trust has been broken by people that should not have broken it.
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That's important to remember that.
29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So encourage the slow process.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't encourage service right away.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing that will hurt a person more than serving before they're ready.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just going to hurt them because they're not ready to do it.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to hurt the people around them if they're trying to serve.
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't encourage service right away.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And this one's really important to make sure that you're available.
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Be available to answer their questions.
29:52
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to be coming in most likely with a lot of preconceived ideas.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably some emotions.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably some assumptions.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And probably a lot of reasons why they don't want to trust you.
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't take a personal.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not you.
30:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the sinful things that were done to those people.
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And very possibly sinful ways that they've responded to those things, not always, but that's always part of it as well.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't take those things personally.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: be okay to walk with them through that process, care for them, and work through that timeline.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing to do.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So ignorance, past pain, the last one, this is where the conversation changes a little bit.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You have individuals that will not want to join a membership because they do not want accountability.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: and these people do exist.
30:51
[SPEAKER_00]: These people want to enjoy the lone wolf Christian status and just enjoy themselves, Jesus and their Bible under a tree and reap the benefits of being part.
31:05
[SPEAKER_00]: of a local church without having to submit to any of the responsibility of being a member of that church.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want the accountability.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want to be told what to do.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want somebody looking over their shoulder.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want to submit to pastoral leadership.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: They do not want to be held accountable by other members.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't want the responsibility of caring for other Christians, right?
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: This one I have found is it is a reality, but it is the minority of reasons.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to be very careful not when having conversations with individuals that are in our church that are hesitant about church membership, not to simply jump to this one as the reason that they are hesitant.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: work through the first two before you assume the third.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's important to, I think, remember, my assumption, where I start, my starting place is not, oh, they must not want to submit.
32:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They must have a problem with accountability.
32:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm automatically assuming ignorance or pass pain before I land on them, not wanting accountability.
32:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just thinking the best of your brothers and sisters in Christ.
32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is a reality.
32:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is something that you will run into from time to time in the local church.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you do, it's important, obviously, to show grace, but to not compromise on your standards as a local church.
32:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
32:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We as a local church have biblical membership.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: We view it as biblical.
32:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We view it as good.
32:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And we view it as something that every Christian should aspire to, maybe not here, but somewhere.
32:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not something that we're going to compromise on.
32:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to play by, you know, we're not going to have different rules for different people.
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We believe that is an overarching standard that every Christian should be pressing into.
33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not going to change the rules for you.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to continue to be encouraging you and pressing on you to consider membership.
33:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to continue to have those conversations.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to encourage study and to give them resources.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We have resources on why church membership is good and right.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of great resources out there in nine marks.
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of great resources that I will hand out on why church membership is important.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: There's plenty of resources.
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: encourage without equipping, right?
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to give them the resources, walk them through the things take the time to do that so that at the end of the day, your conscience is clear and there's no excuse.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: They can't, they can't honestly claim ignorance, right?
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That helps kind of level the playing field a little bit.
34:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, if that process doesn't yield with anything and those individuals are not wanting to join the membership, they're not for one reason or another, I start pressing into those reasons and I will get to the point to where I will suggest perhaps worshiping somewhere else might be beneficial.
34:29
[SPEAKER_00]: right if you're not joining because of you know theological issues like I get it let's let's help you find a church where you align more theological if you're not joining because maybe you don't trust the the pastoral leadership hey alright i'm not going to take that personally let's help you find a place where you trust the leadership and you can become a member there right but if you're not joining because you don't want accountability
34:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't think church membership is something that you need personally.
35:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have those conversations.
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you that I think you're wrong.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you that I think you need accountability and your
35:11
[SPEAKER_00]: desire to not have it is concerning to me.
35:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to work through those things.
35:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, if that's not something you're going to receive, I am going to ask you the question, you know, if you're not going to receive the council and the discernment and wisdom of your pastors, why are you here?
35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the purpose of you being here?
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Now obviously it's gonna take a while to get to that point, right?
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't start there.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the end of the road of a lot of meetings, a lot of time, a lot of grace.
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But ultimately, I don't think that we should be unwilling to get to that point.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Because again, like my priority is the membership of my church, the sheep that are here, and I have somebody in that church,
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't want to submit to the leadership, that doesn't want to commit to being involved and to care for the other members.
36:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a concern to me.
36:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a concern that I'm going to investigate and confront.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't be unwilling to do that.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to be willing to have those conversations because those are the types of conversations that the Lord often uses to break the stubborn hearts of wayward Christians.
36:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And the wounds of a friend are
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: much more desirable, desirable than the kisses of an enemy, and often being a pastor, or a faithful member means that you have to provide some friendly wounds in the form of speaking truth in love, and it would not be afraid to do that.
37:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, with visitors that are in your church seeking membership in short, be intentional, be intentional with those relationships, encourage them to press in, press into them, don't let those conversations gather dust, be patient with the process, right?
37:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk through those things, investigate why, maybe their hesitant, if they are hesitant at all.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: be actively encouraging your membership in the local church, the current membership to be also investing in those people as part of their responsibility as fellow members is to share the load and encourage those visitors.
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: in their perspective membership.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great thing that the current membership of the church gets to do.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And make sure that you are preaching the importance of commitment and membership from the pulpit.
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it's not your application of every sermon, but we should hear about the importance of the local church from the pulpit and in the conversations with one another throughout that Sunday throughout the week.
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
38:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So make local church membership
38:22
[SPEAKER_00]: vital and important in your local church.
38:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Make it something that you guys take as priority, take seriously and encourage your non-members in that process.
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a really great thing.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And the church is blessed.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: The membership is blessed and you get to be a part of
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: those people's journey into coming into the local church.
38:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes coming into that membership for the first time, and that's really cool.
38:52
[SPEAKER_00]: When you see someone go from either ignorance of membership, maybe hostility toward membership, maybe fear of membership, and you see through that process the heart soften.
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And the mind change and what I have found is that when you take the time to disciple those people,
39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And you take the time to walk with those people through that process.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They will end up being the loudest champions for local church members that you have in your church.
39:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They will.
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: The ones that you take the time to walk with.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: will end up being your fear, your fear-sist allies when it comes to local church membership.
39:38
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I have found by and large to be true, and it's really cool to see.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Really cool to see what the Lord does.
39:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, be intentional and be encouraging.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So I hope that that's been encouraging to you guys, again, sorry for not the normal app.
39:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna get back on it next week.
39:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I promise, we're gonna be hopefully back in
40:00
[SPEAKER_00]: regular, regular recording schedule as long as things don't shake out too great.
40:04
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40:10
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40:16
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40:16
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40:19
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40:25
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40:26
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40:27
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40:30
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40:30
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40:33
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40:36
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40:40
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40:45
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40:52
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41:02
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41:11
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41:20
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41:25
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41:26
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