Latest / Monero Talk / Tari Mainnet is Live! | EPI 350
Transcript
- Doug All right, now it's official. Now it's official. We got the cake sponsorship, Stealth. We don't say enough good things about Stealth. They've been supporting us for a long time, instant exchange. We'll get to that. I want to ask you guys, when will we see Tari on exchanges? But we'll get to that in a little bit, I'm sure. So yeah, guys, I mean, so no bumps in the road with the launch? That's good to hear. I'm considering how much of a beast this thing is. And it's a little OG, right? And that it's purely proof of work, trying to be a legit decentralized network from the get-go. So I imagine it's a little harder to launch than maybe some of these other projects we're seeing these days, right? Given the mechanics, what's going on behind the scenes. Ric Well, I think like, you know, I tweeted something yesterday in response to someone who's complaining about the download links for Linux, like not working particularly well. And I just out of almost curiosity, I decided to take a look at like how much effort we'd actually put in. And it's insane. I mean, like just the normal Tari suite, which is just like the underlying command line applications like 240,000 lines of Rust, 91,000 lines of Python, Tari universe is 20,000 lines of Rust, 22,000 lines of TypeScript. It's just insane, you know, the iOS wallets, 28,000 lines of Swift, the Android wallets, 35,000 lines of Kotlin. This is not a small amount of effort from a software engineering perspective. It's, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of man hours by really sophisticated engineers and cryptographers. And there's still things that are buggy as all hell. You know, that's totally normal. It's it's a really challenging thing to build and to launch. And the the oodle, the layer above this, this base layer that's going to have all the cool stuff depends on the security model in this base layer. So it was important that we we got it right. And that, I think, is a testament to the the effort of the contributors and to the amount of time it's been put in. Doug Yeah, I mean that you kind of took my next I was gonna ask so why did it take so long to launch in the first play? Like why were you guys working on this for seven years? I mean most projects in crypto We don't even hear them talking about like hey, we're gonna launch, you know, they just they just come on the scene What why did why did things go down this way for Tari? I guess it's like you kind of answered it there just because there was so much development work happening But was there also other things? I mean, was it like you guys, you know Were you hit were you hitting some bumps in the road on the way? What what was the what did the journey involve? Why did it take so long to get here? Ric I mean, I can talk to from a technical like a sort of deeper technical perspective, and then Naveen surely has some thoughts too. Surely. Don't call me Shirley. But I think like, you know, when we started on this in 2017, nobody was using Rust. Like, it just wasn't a thing. And we purposely chose Rust. And, and the reason for that was, we were very nervous and worried about stealing any energy from Monero, you know, we didn't want to steal contributors, we didn't want to steal users, we wanted to make sure that this was something that ran tangentially, and contributed positively to Monero, so that people would feel comfortable that both exist in the same space without stepping on each other's toes. So now you've got a world where there's like, where nobody knows Rust, you know, like almost nobody. So you're not going to be able to find contributors who know Rust and be like, hey, come work on this cool project. So you have to find people who know C sharp or C++. And you're like, hey, come work on this cool project. And then none of those people know anything about blockchain, you know, they might they might have played with crypto or even used it, but they don't know how to build an L1 from scratch. Like almost nobody does. So you know, there's this the learning curve is steep. It's insane. And like contributors at a pitch up and they had to learn a lot to start. So there were tons of things along the way, like at the beginning, contributors worked on macarolos lightning implementation, which was written in Rust. And they did that to learn Bitcoin to learn, you know, fundamentals about crypto and to learn Rust. And that like, that shoot up like a year. But it was important because they would not have known idiomatic Rust, they wouldn't have known any of the principles that they needed to know, in order to start working. You know, even like learning the cryptography of Bitcoin was important. So I think all of that stuff is, you know, is part and parcel of why this took so long, like this the spin up alone, before we started breaking ground and making any headway was like 18 to 24 months. And are there other technical Doug Advantages to go with or sorry to be let me are there technical advantages to going with the rust other than that You know, it's it's you're not cutting into Monero's Mindshare or whatever because you're taking away devs, but are there technical reasons why you want to go with us? Yes Ric Yeah, so Rust, Rust is kind of like the way to think about it is a lot of like lower level high performance code is written in C++. And most languages nowadays are, you know, like Go, Python, or R or anything, C sharp, cobalt, cobalt, Java, JavaScript, anything like that is like a layer above that it's slower, it's less performance, you know, but the challenge with C++ is like memory safety and that sort of thing. So Rust seeks to have the performance of C++ with like the memory safety of something like Java and to its credit, like there's a lot of nowadays, at least, you know, sort of nearly a decade later, there are a lot of projects that are building on Rust, a lot of Tor is now written in Rust, you know, Mozilla is taking Rust seriously for Firefox, you know, Google's rewritten a bunch of stuff in Rust, even much to Linus 12 volts dismay, there's a lot of like core Linux modules that are now being written or rewritten in Rust. So it's becoming like a very fundamental language for anything on your phone or desktop. That's more that underpins it, you know, it's not really becoming like the language that you're writing a website in, but the HTTP server that serves your website, that might be written in Rust, you know, the database that the power that might be written in Rust. I know Amazon have have started really adopting Rust on AWS as well. So you're seeing a lot of that for performance and safety, memory safety reasons, you know, fewer crashes, fewer vulnerabilities, it's certainly not perfect, but it's better. And that's the main reason we went for it. And I will say, I don't know, I mean, you're surely aware of this, but there's a Monero base node rewrite, well, not rewrite, but alternative called cup rate, which is written in Rust. And the performance and cup rate is insane compared to the sort of normal C++ Monero node. So it's a it is a very exciting, future proof language. And that was the reason that we chose it as well. Doug And to your point of not wanting to take development away from Monero, are there arguments to make that perhaps by doing it in the same language that Monero could benefit from some of the work that you're doing, that people could... I would look at it almost that way, but kind of explain to me why that's not the logic, right? If it was more similar to Monero, there's arguments to me like, all right, why you're breaking new ground with Tari, building new things. These are things that Monero might be able to then easily implement, but I guess it's perhaps not the case. Ric Yeah, so that's a great question. Monero and Tari's cryptography and privacy is totally different. There's nothing in Tari that Monero would benefit from. For there to be any parallels or sort of common code or shared libraries would require a massive change in Monero's cryptography. And again, that's by design. We chose a different set of elliptic curves for somewhat similar to Monero's, but slightly newer. And part of that reason was not to have a cryptographic overlap. And also because we, just 2018 is five years post-Monero's launch, cryptography had evolved. And there's nothing wrong with Monero's cryptography. But there was slightly newer things that we could take advantage of. So a lot of it stems from that. It's not the decisions that we made from a cryptographic and an architectural perspective were informed by Monero. And we certainly don't have a strong non-advented Yale syndrome. Like if there was something that we wanted to borrow conceptually from Monero, we did. And to that end, 50% of the hash rate is merge-mined with Monero because we love random X and because we want to strengthen Monero by adding hash rates. But at the same time, if there was something that we saw that was advantageous, like we use mumble-wumble on the L1 because we don't need super strong privacy in the L1, but we need a scalability. And mumble-wumble provides more scalability than Monero at a cost of privacy. It's just that the privacy is weaker, and that's fine. Naveen Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug Yeah, I want to I want to get into more of the technicals that Naveen I see I see you want to jump in go ahead man I mean he took all the words out of my mouth I was there ready to talk about cobalt, this whole fucking tangent about rust. I don't know. I sometimes be honest. No, look, I think that is the other the other answer to your question about like, why? 2800 plus days is that there are some things that we're doing with Tari that have just simply never been done before. So when you look at Tari universe, you know, the application you installed last night, there is no crypto app like it in the world, like it just doesn't exist. And what the product does behind the scenes for you as a user is remarkable, right? So when you first boot it up, it automatically creates a wallet for you, automatically connects the network sync state, joins you into a P2 pool, you know, we have the best P2 pool implementation now, out there in the world, the biggest, the biggest by far, by far. And, you know, all of that happens seamlessly behind the scenes. And then it's all wrapped in this very beautiful user interface. And, you know, to to think about how to do that, just Tari universe alone, is like almost two year project. Just that, you know, so because you're when you're doing something net new, that no one has done before, there isn't really something to copy, right? There's not something to say, like, Oh, we should do it like x. Well, what if x doesn't exist? And you have to kind of like, blaze the trail on your own. So there's a number of scenarios like this that have occurred around the development of Tari that resulted in it just taking a meaningful amount of time. So, but we're here now. So what we've done is done. And a great seemingly great job. Obviously, you guys still have a long way to go, right? We got to we got to launch the layer to whatnot. But what would you say ultimately does differentiate Tari from the competition? What makes it? What makes it new? Like, why is it new and special? Why isn't it? You know, we already have thousands of different cryptos, even have a lot of different layer ones. Is it this usability you're talking about the fact that anybody anywhere can few clicks start to participate and mine it permissionlessly? Or are there other core aspects of it that make it different? Yeah, so I think there are sort of three key things that make Tari very unique compared to basically any protocol in the world that exists at this point in time. So number one is something you just hit on, which is accessibility and usability. You know, we live in a world where if you're a new user, and we want to get involved in this industry, it is really hard. You know, and that includes even using something like Solana or Ethereum. If you are a new user to onboard into a proof of stake chain. 100% of proof of stake chains are KYC gated, Doug. So now you've got to go through this whole long winded frickin process, upload your government issued ID, dance in front of the camera to do a liveness check. Doug You know, you know, it's a minimum of 15 steps. We've seen it as much as 33 steps in MetaMask. It's 33 steps. So it is extremely hard for new users to get involved. And you know, one of the things that you know, both of us have learned and you know, previous entrepreneurial activities is that every step you add to a user journey, you cut your conversion rate a lot. The other thing about usability is you have to think about what is the goal here is the goal to create something that's just, you know, for a relatively small group of people that are technically astute enough to be able to use it. Or is the goal to create something that ultimately can become a next generation financial system on earth. And if the goal is the latter, then you really have to work hard to meet users where they are. And users are not in a place where they're going through a whole convoluted process to get involved in this industry. That's just not where users are. Where users are is a world where you can download an application for your Mac or PC, install it, run it, and it just kind of works, right? That's where users are. So to get to that place is a really frickin big deal. And to be blunt, there isn't a single protocol in the world that's achieved what Tari contributors have achieved at this point in time. Second thing about Tari that's unique is pairing what I just described with confidentiality by default, right? So now to Rick's point, the goal here is not to be competitive with Monero. From a privacy point of view, privacy, Monero's privacy model is meaningfully better than Tari's. Tari operates in a more of a good enough mental model. Monero operates in a, you know, privacy is core to what makes Monero unique and very, very special in the world. So, but that being said, Tari does offer meaningful privacy by default, powered by this Mimble-Wimble implementation that Tari contributors have developed. And that's really, really important for user safety. I mean, we all know this in the Monero ecosystem. You know, nobody wants a world where you can just like Google someone's wallet address and see their balance and transaction history from the beginning of time. It's batshit crazy. And two, it's also really important from a business point of view, right? So, and that will get to my third point in a moment, but if you think about it, if you're really building a developer platform, Tari is really a developer platform, right? Because we want ultimately people to want to build amazing applications that live on top of Tari. If that's your goal, then you want to create a world where developers can build applications and actually have some level of connection and protection, if you will, around their user base, right? On Ethereum, you don't have that. On Solana, you don't have that. You build an amazing application on Solana, your application is going to be vampire attacked by a hundred copy pasta clones, you know, within dates. Doug You know, on Tari, that's simply not true because Tari is default confidential. So you don't really know who the users are of application A versus application B versus application C. And that enables developers to have a better shot at building a successful business because they can actually have a user moat. There is no such thing as a user moat on Solana or Ethereum. It doesn't exist. It's a fantasy, okay? The second thing that Tari does that's really novel, and this gets to the third point for developers, is this vision that we have of providing native distribution through Tari Universe. So Tari Universe is this incredibly beautiful, easy to use mining application. That's how everyone knows it today. But in the future, what we hope to deliver for the community, what the contributors hope to bring to the table, is an evolution to Tari Universe that adds this concept of a native app launcher. So the idea is that you load up Tari Universe like you do today, you're mining, it's very easy, but all of a sudden, imagine in the exact same interface at your fingertips, you have access to every Tari application right there. And that's remarkable because now all the miners become distribution effectively for these developers. And for the miners, for the users of Tari, it becomes discovery. So now you can actually discover the applications. Think about it this way, which is really kind of wild to say, but Ethereum and Solana, these other protocols, they're terrible for developers. Not only can developers accrue no value for their apps because all of the user bases are completely public, they have no user moat, it just doesn't exist. But number two, there's no native distribution. There's no app store for Ethereum. There's no app store for Solana. So how do people discover apps? And the answer is they can't. So Tari aims to solve that problem as well. So those are the three things that make Tari fundamentally different from any other protocol that exists on earth at this point in time. Very cool, very cool. So I hear you mentioning Solana, Ethereum. Is that who you would consider Tari's competition is? Ric Yeah, I mean, Torrey's competition is definitely not Monero. Torrey's competition isn't Zcash because our adverts aren't as cringe. We just simply don't have adverts. You're not going to run around with them. Doug I was dancing in the beach in Dubai from a weird, tarry turtle and you know, we just saw What is going on over there? We're like. Ric Well, we tried to find a purple Cybertron, and we couldn't. Doug the issue. Ric Your point, I think, if you think about it, there's like, and I spoke about this on the space yesterday, like, there's this ideal crypto, if you ever imagine like an ideal crypto, and I don't mean something like Monero, which is just purely money, I mean, like, something, you know, like Ethereum or Solano, where you can have dApps and programmability and all sorts of stuff, then you have to hit a couple of, of things, you know, you, it needs to have privacy and confidentiality. Preferably, like some sort of adjustable programmable system, it needs to have scalability. So you need to be able to have like the world's financial transactions on there. It needs to be decentralized. So like, maximally decentralized. So they aren't single points of failure or single points of control. And what's the third thing like, oh, and you need to have a beautiful user experience. Otherwise, no one's going to use it, you know, so like, Doug You left that for the last one. Ric my bad, you know, like, that was like, okay, so pretend I want to. Okay, he brings that to the table. If you think about something like Ethereum, because Ethereum has like no scalability. When it was proof of work, it had a lot more decentralization than it does now. It's like, but it's always been pretty centralized. It's got great programmability, like, that's, that's nice. But it doesn't have privacy. It's got a really crummy user experience. But we're going to give it a pass because it was early, you know, was the first to do that, in a way, you know, counterparty had tokens, but it didn't have that fight like that level. And then you look at Solana, okay, like Solana, very, very scalable, but like, even more centralized than Ethereum, you know, still a terrible user experience, like, no one's really like hitting all of these things simultaneously. And really, what we want Tori to be is all four of those, like, beautiful user experience, highly decentralized, highly scalable, and, and like, programmable confidentiality, you know, and we believe that we can do that. And I think as a testament to that, Tori universe uses p2pool. Now, we didn't have to do that. We could have like we actually discussed a bunch of models, we discussed what if we had a federation of pools, you know, and like, when somebody spins up a pool, if they're trustworthy, we added to the federation, we could have done that. And you just randomly join a pool. And that was like, that would have been good enough. But it wasn't enough for us, we had to do p2pool, which honestly added like a year to what we were doing. And that's like we have become p2pool experts, you know, much to our great dismay. And now, by the way, it's still not even there, like, the SHA3 p2pool works perfectly. But the Monero p2pool, when it runs parallel to that on the same machine, there's issues. So you know, we're still problem solving on that. But we're, we're picking away at it. And we're going to win, we're going to get to a point where both of them work perfectly in this beautiful user experience, because we believe strongly that we can do do do all things we can make it maximally decentralized and maximally beautiful from a user experience. Doug We have almost 700 live viewers, guys like and retweet. Let's get the word out here. We have XMR Super Chats coming in. Go to xmrchat.com slash ManeroTalk to send your Super Chats. I'll probably bring them up at the end just so I don't disrupt the flow here. When you say programmable, how programmable is Tari? I mean, so is it as programmable as Ethereum? Is it going to do all the things that Solana does? Or will it be able to? Ric Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's no there's no like it can only do NFTs and tokens or anything like that. You know, you can you can program whatever you want. And that's that's Doug Yeah, because I feel like that was the original, right? That the people kind of were thinking like, Tari is for tokens. And originally, that was a big pitch, like big part of the pitch of Tari was we're going to use it for tickets and things like that. That was kind of the constant thing that was being talked about. So has it since evolved or don't the plan? Go ahead. Ric not to sort of jump in there, but also just to add like, one of the one of my big fears with Monero was always that somebody would try and bake assets and that sort of thing into the base there. And we saw that a little bit with mordinals, which, which came in and disappeared very quickly. But you know, you don't want that because it adds traceability. It introduces metadata that can cause traceability. So look, you know, Monero is like, you can't stop people from shoving whatever they want into Monero's chain. But like it does, it creates a fundamental privacy risk. And that's, like, part of my rationale for working on Tari was to take that away to so when somebody comes and they say and they say they want to add assets and NFTs to Monero, people can go, please don't go build that on Tari. Fantastic. Doug And so do you want to get a little bit more into that? Like how how is that functioning? Maybe you could talk a little technically like what what is layer one? What is layer two? Well, how that's all work and what is the expert is the vegan to step up for that one Well, I see I see Zorg in the chat is like so it wasn't a mean and it's soon You should bring the fucking costume over it Ric I mean, we've got someone in the chat accusing me of being Afrikaans, you know, I take deep offense to that. And, you know, I think, okay, so, like, as we've said, like, or as most people know, like the L1 is proof of work based on Wimblewimble. It's got a very lightweight scripting language in it. And the entire purpose of this is to be the security model for the L2. And we call the L2 the Oodle, you know, which is very, very... He came up with the name. Doug I don't take any credit for that one. I feel like this must be named a lot in a lot of these things, but I'm sure to be good. I keep it erupting. Go ahead. Ric OK, so the Oodle is where the magic happens. And it's based on something called Cerberus, which is a technology that Radix developed. And we've taken an earlier version of Cerberus. They've made some changes that have taken Cerberus in a different path to the path that we're going down. We think there's a really elegant model around Cerberus. And effectively, one of the key advantages to Cerberus is, from a scaling perspective, is all the validator nodes don't validate every transaction. There's sort of a way to think about it is imagine if you had a circle. And there was a little bead that ran along the circle. And as it passes a validator node, it gives a little group of transactions to validate. And of course, multiple validators end up validating the same transaction. But it's not every validator doing that. And this is really elegant, because in order to increase scale and transactions, or the number of transactions per second that the validator network can handle, you just add more validators. That ring is going to go around the circle once a second. And it can carry as many transactions as you want. It can carry billions of transactions. It's just going to pass little groups out. So it's really elegant, because you can just scale by adding validators, as opposed to the Solano method of scaling, which is you scale by increasing CPU and RAM and the existing validator nodes. And bandwidth. And bandwidth. That's untenable. So this is really, really powerful, because validator nodes will be able to run on relatively low-spec machines. And in addition to that, we have a very, very fast consensus mechanism. So we use something called PBFT, which is Practical Byzantine Fault Tolerance as a consensus mechanism. But we use a special flavor of it called Hot Stuff, which is a PBFT consensus algorithm developed by Facebook. So thank you, Mark Zuckerberg, for giving that to us. We appreciate your sacrifice. And by combining these things with a bunch of other stuff, a bunch of other clever technical things, we end up with this really, really fast, highly scalable, highly programmable OODL. And it breaks down, ultimately, from a security perspective to the L1. So if there's ever a consensus disagreement, then that group of validator nodes can come to agreement by letting the L1 handle the consensus. And that's the whole purpose of it, that even though this is kind of proof of stake-y on the L2, it doesn't matter, because when there's a disagreement, it goes down to proof of work. And proof of work is the best consensus mechanism that we have. Doug On a technological, logical level, what kind of criticisms can be made of the architecture of Tari? I think you're kind of the best in the game of somebody who can criticize a crypto, taking a step back. What are perhaps some of the criticisms that can be thrown at Tari on a technological level? Or is it perfect? You criticize yourself? Naveen No. Ric Listen, I think that what we're going to find is it'll be a little bit flimsy at the beginning. You know, it's going to be a little bit fickle and a little bit flimsy out the gate because of all the moving parts. And that's fine. You know, that robustness comes from being out there, being live, being hammered, falling apart and improving it over time. And from more contributors pitching up and being willing to eyeball the code and find issues and you just you're not going to get that on testnet. You know, there's like I've said this before, there's kind of like I see this a lot with product, with not just cryptocurrencies, but sometimes with projects that involve decentralization or cryptography in general. They tend to swing one of two ways. They either go, well, you know, this is a science experiment. And so what we're going to do is have like a command line only or like a toy implementation. And we're going to spend, you know, 15 years working on it. And it's going to be perfect before we allow any human to actually use it. And that's there's nothing wrong with that. It's just like, how do you how do you evolve if you're going to be in a in a science lab for 15 years? But then there's the other way, which is like what you see a lot of like Ethereum based L2s where they go like, you know, like we've got this vision for what this could look like. And so what we're going to do is power it by Google sheets in the meantime and hope nobody notices. And then by the time someone notices, we'll hopefully have like, you know, made it a little bit more decentralized than Google sheets. And that's not a great outcome either. So we try to like be in the middle, like, you know, can we get this to a point where we launch it safe enough for people to use, knowing that it's going to be a little bit fickle in places, a little bit flimsy, a little bit like full of duct tape and spit and, you know, rubber bands, but where people can actually use it. And and, you know, can we also make sure that it's robust enough that people aren't going to lose money up the gate, you know, like, like, let's just at least get to the point where people are launching meme coins and losing money as a result. Doug Sticking with the theme of criticism, in addition to technological level, in terms of tokenomics and the way the project is architected, in terms of having investors, what are your guys' responses to that? Because I know that's often the criticism that gets thrown, especially by people in the Monero community. I'm sure you guys have heard of their project that have been criticized because of a pre-mine. But Tari has a pre-mine too, right? So what would you say, what would be your response to people that might be critical of that? Look, I would say that immaculate conception is great. That being said, it's really, really hard to invent new things without resources. So when you're trying to do something new, you have to choose. It's like a choose your own adventure. So one path is immaculate conception, and you may not have the resources right away, especially for something like Tari, where we've spent years and years and years inventing new things, new ways of doing things, because there's a particular approach here that we think is going to deliver a lot of value to the community and to developers. Or you go get the resources. There's no really way to do that if you don't have the resources. That's what I would say. So in terms of investors and all that kind of what we've tried to do is really align with people that have more of a longer term perspective on the project and want to be value add and not extractive. And I totally recognize and appreciate people's skepticism for people like venture capitalists or other kinds of people in the skeptical too. But it's not a bunch of company names. It's people. And it's people who said, hey, I think this is a really cool idea. Let me give you some resources so that you guys can go and actually pursue it. And it's okay if it takes a little longer than you expect. And it's okay if you have to pivot or you make some mistakes in the implementation and have to redo something. We're going to back you. We're going to give you resources to go and do it. Well, then the question is, is how do those people get rewarded for the bet that they took? And we worked really hard to try to find ways to avoid something like a pre-mine. And we came to the conclusion that it's basically really difficult to figure it out. It's sort of unsolvable. Well, we weren't able to solve it anyway. Someone else might be smarter than us, but we weren't able to solve it because well, at the end of the day, these are people who backed us. And we want to make sure that we're taking really good care of them because it's the right thing to do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that 70% of the tokens in the initial emission and 100% of the tokens for the tail emission go to miners. It doesn't take away the fact that 5% of the tokens are going to go to all these amazing people who stepped up and helped us battle test the test net, both this test net and the oodle test net in the near future. So the vast majority of the tokens are going to the community as the dam will should. But yes, of course, we're not going to sit here and say, well, no, Doug, there is no pre-mine. There is a pre-mine. Doug And the tokenomics, by the way, were published over a year ago, so in March of last year. So anyone who has questions or concerns or wants to evaluate the tokenomics, they can go look at the documentation that's been out for over a year and they can make their own choice. We understand that there are going to be people out there who don't like it. They just don't like it. They're like, hey, I only want to participate in immaculate conception coins like Monero and perhaps Bitcoin. And then there are going to be people out there who go, hey, I downloaded Atari Universe. Wow, this is really beautiful. It's really remarkably easy to use. I think that user experience is kind of the final frontier, if you will, or one of the final frontiers of this industry and these guys have a unique perspective on it. And it's OK. Maybe I don't love it, but it's OK that these guys have tokenomics that are imperfect because they're doing something that no one else has really done. And that's just really hard to do without the resources. Fair enough. Fair enough. I know me personally, I've become more okay with these concepts, obviously, because Monero first, really, Monero only for the most part. But if other projects are going to exist and they're really not trying to be Monero, they're doing things in different ways. And there's definitely a lot of benefit that can come from these, quote, unquote, pre-mines. Just a ton of resources that allow you... I mean, let's be real. That's one of the problems that Monero often faces, is being able to fund things, keep things funded. It's worked out okay, community donating and whatnot, but there's certainly advantages to having a pot of money there that's sitting there for purposes of development. Ric And Doug, maybe, maybe just to add to that, you know, like, like Naveen said, like, him and I spent months talking about how we could do this as an immaculate conception, you know, like we thought we had all sorts of models around, like, you know, other ways to generate, like, some sort of revenue stream or something that could, that could conceivably make this work. And the more we went down that road, the more we ended up basically making these like really complex root Goldberg machines, Goldberg machines. And like, for what, you know, like, it's complexity, unfortunately, in cryptographic systems is a death mob. So that's just like not ideal. So ultimately, where we landed was it has to be simple. And part of the reason why we felt a level of comfort doing this is because Tari's L1 security model is not an independent security model, because that's where the danger comes in with a lot of these pre-mines. They, they have a big bunch of tokens. But, and what does that mean? That means that miners get less in a proof of work model, or in a proof of stake model, it means that they can swing votes and they can they control effectively the outcome of all sorts of things that control. I mean, they could control the whole thing. Yeah, they could they could spin up validators using their giant pool of coins and just, you know, allow whatever transactions or disallow whatever transactions they want. So in proof of stake systems, it's particularly bad when that happens. But in proof of work systems, it's equally dangerous. If the security models independent of everything of anything. So the fact that we are merge mind with Monero, the fact that we are hooked into Monero security model gave us a level of dependence on from a security model perspective, that then allowed us the freedom to keep this simple. You know, to take a portion of the tokens and reward those that have taken the greatest risks with this, you know, provide a bunch of future benefits, while still rewarding miners with the bulk of the tokens. Doug Why is the proof of work split into two types? You have random X that's merge mind with Monero, and then you have your own separate Tari proof of work. Why is it done that? Ric way? Yeah, so that's a great question. We initially designed it as 100% merge mine with Monero. And then we found that with 100% merge mining, there's a class of attacks that can still happen. So that was the primary reason for having that split, you know, just preventing a certain group of attacks. There's, you know, nothing wrong with fundamentally with cryptocurrencies that have made different decisions around merge mining. I know that Darkfire, I think, is planning on being 100% merge mined with Monero. But you know, there's a group of attacks that are prevented when you have a hash rate split. And by the way, the hash rate split that we had initially was not 50-50, it was skewed differently. I think initially, we did 70% random X, 30%, double SHA-3, then we went out of 60-40. And then we found another group of a class of attacks when it's not split 50-50. So, you know, we've, we spent a lot of time thinking this through and trying to reduce the attack surface as much as possible, while still ultimately just making it a strong proof of work system. Doug And will Tari always be proof of work or will it evolve into having some proof-of-stake element eventually go hybrid in that way, eventually totally proof-of-stake? Ric part of the proof of stake because proof of stake is garbage. PRS is PRS. Well, I always thought. Doug that we were going to go to proof of pony, I mean, yeah, and you know, you have to go out and take photos of home. And, and that's how you validate transactions. And there's only one Tony AI tools that ensure that it's a problem. You know, so that's where I thought we were going. Ric going but then like AI image generation my journey just ruined it for us. I just feel Doug I feel a little bit switched your dog, but but to make sure I don't but will You people POS become part of it potentially at some point. Oh, it will never you know fully take over but is it hard? It does okay, right Ric So effectively, validators will lock up some amount of tokens in order to run a validator, you can't just, you know, run a validator, because again, there's a cost of attacks when validators have nothing in state. So you know, that is a necessary component to it. But again, that's on the L2. And when there are disagreements on validation, it breaks down into proof of work. So that proof of stake component is only to prevent nothing at stake validators. But ultimately, we really just want to focus on the proof of work layer running forever. And to that end, it's going to take several decades before we get to tail emission, you know, because it's, we want to, we're thinking about this in terms of what does Torrey look like in 50 or 100 or 150 years, not what does Torrey look like in six months. Doug You're gonna be an old pony at that point, man Ric Probably is. I'll be the mirror. I'm in the Maritara town. Naveen Why are you doing this to me? Ric I don't know. Where did the other draw come from? How do you want to call me the Muratara town? Doug Love that you guys are are still friends at this point after seven years of being in the trenches This might be the most promising part of this project The fact that you guys are As close as ever in cracking jokes. That's a good sign. That's a good sign. You guys have been having a good time this entire time I'm sure I'm sure there were some some some tangos, right? I'm sure there were some ups and downs, but it's nice to see that you guys are still together Right. I mean, I've worked on projects and sometimes that becomes a little a little bit difficult So you fluffy you mentioned you mentioned DarkFi I Wanted to ask you like like big picture, you know, you can pick we've compared tari to aetherium and Solana Abba to these other Projects that are specifically trying to be the quote-unquote private version of aetherium private version of Solana, right? We have zano we have dark phi we have beam I don't know this there's probably a number of other ones that are being worked on or that I don't even know about How would you compare yourself to these other attempts at being the private scalable version of aetherium You saw tar universe last night, right? Yes, it did. Okay. Is there anything that you've ever seen many? I mean dark fight doesn't even exist Yeah, right. So it's gonna be a little hard to compare it against that one, but we could uh, so We could be hyped. I think I think I think Well, why why live in fantasy land when we can live in reality? This is the tari mainnet Conversation So look, I think so use it usability is really the UX and usability is the real differentiator No project is going to be successful if it's built for a small number of technically proficient people It's not it's just not the way to really win out there in the world and really build something that's maximally impactful So the decision tree for target, I guess Monero's fuck then No, but but everyone else come a long way and usability I I think like look for example using the latest version of cake wallet with what you know background sync I think I think Monero's usability has actually come a very long way To improve and by the way, what I would also say is that You know having something like tari That exists sort of in the Monero orbit Is I think also valuable to the narrow because the Monero contributors can say hey Are there patterns are there user experience patterns that we can take from tari and implement those into Monero? So at the end of the day someone has to blaze the trail here around user experience And I have a hard time understanding how it's going to be any of those other projects because I've just not seen anything For many of those projects that indicates that they care about it at the level that tari contributors do tari contributors Obviously care about design and user experience and accessibility a lot It is it is right up there with you know cryptography and the technical implementation, Doug you know, we have a worldview here that you need to elevate design at the same level as Engineering, you know, and if you don't do that Then you're not going to reach a place where you can do what I said earlier Which is meet users where they are is the goal here to have as I said a smaller number of people Using the system or is the goal here to eventually have millions of people using the system I mean, why not have a world where there's some free to get freedom enhancing Software for millions of people in the world versus a relatively small number of people in the world So, you know, you can call it an ambition thing. You can call it a perspective thing But I think it is a cornerstone element of tari that makes tari Firmly differentiated from any other project that is pursuing this particular path anything else you'd put on that list other than UX usability Ric Well, you know, what's interesting is I saw a tweet the other day and it was something along the lines of, I can't remember what altitude, it was shilling, you know, it was like, I don't know, base or bearer chain or mega ethos. That it was the bearer. Doug baddies. No. Ric I don't even know what that is. That's a whole nother cringe. I don't even know what that is. Oh Doug is built for you. Ric No, it was world coin. No, it was one of these altos and the guy was talking about transaction finality. And it was like, we've got transaction finality in 20 milliseconds. Oh, oh, gonad. It was gonad. Instead of the normal 100 milliseconds. And he's like, it is a noticeable difference. It's a noticeable difference because you know, when you go pay for something and you fire up like Apple Pay and you tap on the machine, the 20 seconds versus 100 milliseconds that it takes to validate and finalize your tap, like that makes a difference to people. Like when I tap and pay, it takes like 30 seconds for the credit card machine to even think about that stuff. No one cares. Nobody cares about 20 seconds versus 100 milliseconds. Like the difference is imperceptible to humans and they're bragging about this as a feature. Doug Yeah, I think that in this industry, people have lost the plot as it relates to the like this maniacal focus on transactional performance. The only people that need that level of transactional performance are high frequency trading shops. It has zero impact on the actual like user experience. And so, you know, I have no idea what these other projects are doing and how they're trying to sell themselves. I just I think about, you know, frankly, like the tardy mission, and our sort of goal of, you know, making it wildly accessible and easy to use, ensuring that it is default confidential to a meaningful degree, and ensuring that it is the world's best developer experience. Those are the three things that we focus on here. And we don't really even pay attention to the other projects, just to be honest. Yep. Understood. So obviously, no more when tarry, when tarry, when tarry, but when oodle. All right, I guess that's gonna be the next. Is it another seven years? Are we getting oodle anytime soon? Or are we just getting teased here with layer one? Yeah, I think that yeah, no, I think that our hope is that we can deliver, you know, a testnet of the oodle in the relative near future for the community start to play with. The oodle has been in development for a long time, concurrent to the layer one. So it's not like, Oh, we developed a layer one. And now we got to go start on the oodle. The oodle has been in development for years concurrently to the layer one. So, and anyone can go on the GitHub repos, and they can check it out for themselves. You know, it's all it's all up there. You know, tarry's been, you know, been built in public since day one, basically. So, so yeah, we don't have like a specific timeline or date to commit to or anything. But the goal is in the relative near future, that, yeah, oodle test will will be like kind of an oodle version one that could only maybe do some things, and then it becomes more programmable. How's that all going to go down? Ric That's 100% the way that us and other contributors are thinking of it. Again, because it does sort of stand to reason that you want it to be as robust as possible, and the way to do that is incrementally. Now, I don't think that that necessarily means the core programmable functionality will roll out incrementally, because that's kind of binary. You can either program things where you can't, you know? But certainly, like, some of the stuff that we're doing around templating, like, we'll have a very limited set of templates at the beginning. That'll be expanded as contributors come up with new template ideas. Some of the low-code, low-code, you know, ways of building functionality on the OODL, like, that will take some more time. We've got some ideas about how to fine-tune an AI model so that you can use AI to generate stuff for the OODL. You know, again, that takes time so that you can program it, because it's not going to be generating code. It's more going to be piecing templates together for a safety and security perspective. And all of that will take time. There's also a decentralization aspect, you know? Like, there's certain things like slashing, like the proof-of-work layer being able to slash validators upstream, you know, that stuff will take some time. So, yeah, you know, like, it's not the programmability won't take time, but really getting all of those other pieces out and robust and meeting the high UX bar that we have, that will take time. Doug So Tari as it exists now, are there use cases for it other than just being able to easily mine it and saying, I got some Tari? Or is it only really once the oodle launches, will it become something that you can do things with? Yeah, I mean, right now, you mine Tari, you can spend Tari, you can receive Tari. It's pretty simple at this moment in time. There is a basic scripting language that Ricardo mentioned, but we don't expect people to build super sophisticated things. There are some surprises and things that are coming up that we can't quite talk about yet that involve the L1. But I think the goal here is to surprise and delight where we can and to really get the oodle moving as quickly as possible, because that's really where it's going to create the biggest opportunity for developers to build really, really cool stuff on top of Tari. And it's going to create the best outcome for Tari miners and Tari users in terms of them being able to do really cool stuff with their tokens. All that being said, I think there probably will be people over time who start to accept Tari for payments and other kinds of things over the course of time. But it's the birth of a new network, so it just literally launched yesterday. So we're not sitting here trying to say to people, oh, this is going to be some crazy thing that you can use to pay for your sandwich tomorrow. But over the course of time, as Tari gains prominence and usefulness, then hopefully people choose to accept it for various types of payments. What are some of the apps that you see being built on oodle? What would some of the first apps potentially be? Yeah. I mean, what I would say there is I'd say, imagine you had a layer that has the programmability of Ethereum, but has meaningful confidentiality. What are the kinds of things you might be able to do with that? So for example, you could imagine a new kind of decks that enables people to trade all kinds of things without people being able to copy trade or watch their wallets. That's a really big deal because it turns out that a lot of traders, a lot of people out there don't really want people spying on them. And so you talk to a hardcore Ethereum trader and you'll find out very quickly that they spend many hours a week just like cycling wallets and trying to do all kinds of things to hide the little breadcrumbs and trail because Ethereum is a default surveillance product. So I think there's all kinds of really interesting things that you can build when you pair the programmability with confidentiality that you really can't do very well on something like an Ethereum. So I think there's sort of net new things that will emerge on Tari that hopefully people will be excited about. Any other kind of apps, things we could picture at this moment launching on Oodle? Ric I think one of our big focuses is on apps that ordinary people will use. You know, Naveen and I have a great deal of experience as entrepreneurs. And when you're starting something that is not net new, you know, like something that you can imagine when Uber didn't exist. I know that Taxi Magic and there were a handful of others existed. But Uber was really the first one to introduce and expand, like break into a whole new space, you know, because there just wasn't anything like it. But if you really think about it, if you're going into a space where the stuff already exists, you have a choice. You can either try and steal from existing competitors by making your product 10x or 100x better, or you can expand the potential pool of users. And we're not yet trying to like steal crypto users from Ethereum or Telana because like most of those people are just gamblers. Why do we want to create a new casino? Like why would we want gamblers? Like that's just they're playing a game of musical chairs. So we're already thinking about it from a sort of can we expand the pie perspective? Can we bring new people? You've never really used crypto in this space. And the way to do that is abstracting a lot of this functionality away. You know, you can't have like you really can't have like an install MetaMask as your first user experience. Like that's just frightening. So, you know, and to Naveen's point, like if we get this right, the and we believe we can, the lessons that Monero contributors will be able to take from a usability perspective will allow Monero to be more accessible, more usable. Can we take Havana and some of these other tools, you know, as Monero D listings continue, which they probably will. Can we build more P2P stuff into Monero and make it highly usable? You know, and we can contribute to that. Like maybe directly contribute to code, maybe directly contribute to the design element. But, you know, and maybe some of the stuff could ride off of Tari. You know, there's no reason why you couldn't have like a Monero to Tari swap or Monero, you know, purchasing system based in an available entire universe. So like all of this stuff is feasible and is possible. If we can get it right, like on the Tari level and then allow Monero contributors, you do care about making Monero more accessible. And there are many of them to benefit from that. Doug Yeah, I guess you're looking at Anon's question as you're asking that, right? What does this have to do with Monero? So there's certainly some benefits. Merge mining and what you're saying now in terms of perhaps contributions that go back into the Monero ecosystem. Any other benefits we could think of? Why people in Monero should care about Tari? Ric Well, I'm sure Naveen will have some thoughts on this, but I will say one extra thing that I think is pretty important is Monero's hash rate has hit an all-time high as of yesterday. And that is to be as a result of people downloading Universe and merge mining Monero without even knowing it. When you're running Universe, it doesn't say merge mine with Monero because people don't care. They just want to mine and make money. But it automatically creates a Monero wallet for them. There's a Monero seed in there and a Monero... Yes. Doug I did see that though, but I almost feel like it should say merge because I was almost confused. Obviously, me being a Monero person, that's what I'm interested in. But it seems like it would be a benefit too, because people will see that they're potentially earning this other crypto as well. But obviously, I'm sure you guys have thought about that quite a bit as to why. Ric And also, just to answer Antrixible's question, if the minute you create a Monero L2, it means you're embedding metadata on the Monero chain, and that just goes back to you introduce a privacy risk, a massive, massive, massive privacy risk, and we're trying to avoid that. Doug So for my understanding, when you do mine Tari with the client, you're automatically merge mining and mining Monero. So you're potentially earning Monero as well? Yeah, we are. Absolutely. And it's tied into P2Pool for Monero and for Tari RandomX. Yeah. So right now, Ric Now, Peter Pool runs on the Shar-3 portion. We're busy fixing some bugs on the Monero Peter Pool, so you're solo mining Monero. Doug Okay. Okay. Currently. Why haven't I seen any tarry rewards yet? I've been mining since last night. What's going on? Is it just that it's super competitive right now? Obviously, it's going to get more competitive over time. What do you think is the... What's going on there? Just not lucky? The hash rate has exploded, right? So the hash rate is growing, grew a lot overnight. And as a result, it became a lot more competitive. So all we can say to you, Doug, is please be patient. Your winning should come, hopefully. Someone did send me 0.69 tarry, though. So I assume that was one of you guys, but maybe not. Maybe it was somebody else. I think I got one of the first tarry transactions, right? Because once it's mined, it's locked for, I think, 24 hours, right? Yeah. Ric So, you know, it decreases down to six, but yeah, you definitely are an early, an early transfer. You're like the whole funny of Tari. Doug Yeah. So is the idea though that people will always be... Obviously, Tari is always going to be mine, proof of work, it has a telemission, but is the idea that the everyday user is always going to have this desire to run their CPU and mine Tari? Is that the idea that they'll always be that incentive there? Yeah. Of course. The goal here is to have as many people as possible around the world mining. I guess what I'm saying is how is that going to happen, right? Because if I'm only getting a little... Maybe I don't have a huge mining farm here, I got my CPU. Why am I, as Joe Schmo user, going to be turning on my computer and pointing it towards Tari and mining it? Yeah. Really good question. So we're tuning P2Pool as we speak. The sort of makeup of the Tari network changed a lot overnight, as you might imagine, as more people spun up and chose to mine Tari. So there's some tuning to do around P2Pool. The goal is to create a world where win frequency for miners above a certain CPU and GPU threshold is meaningful enough. At least they're winning at least once a day, for example, so that you can create a world where, as you said, Joe Schmo has motivation to do it. Because obviously people are impatient. People are not going to just mine for weeks on end and not win anything. That's not going to happen. So that's part of the reason why we spent so much time and effort on the Tari implementation of P2Pool is to really leverage the benefits of P2Pool to increase win frequency for as many people as possible. Now it's not perfect. There's obviously going to be people who are running very low end machines or whatever who may not win frequently enough. But that's a work in progress. There's things that we're working on to do our very best to improve the win frequency for as many people in the Tari community as possible. So it is something that a hell of a lot more people want to do. I'll bring up some of these Super Chats. Guys, thanks for sending the Super Chats, by the way. Skyponytipped.50cents. I concur that P2Pool merge mining with XMR has issues. I'm seeing terminal messages like Warren P2Pool. Last gossip message was more than 10 minutes ago. Hellcheck warning error. P2Pool is not healthy. Hellcheck returned warning. So people are seeing some issues and you guys are on it. You're fixing that. Yeah. As I said, it launched yesterday. Whenever you launch anything, there's always going to be some issues to sort through. This is one of them. It's an important one. We obviously want people to be able to successfully merge mine on a P2Pool basis with Monero. That's very important so that they have a better chance of winning XMR. So these are all things that we're working on and there's a number of other things. There are a number of other bugs that people have uncovered as well just in the process of the user base explode. The user base almost doubled overnight as well in terms of just raw number of people mining. So there's definitely going to be issues when you launch something new like this, but contributors are very focused on addressing them and we appreciate people's interest and patience. Doug Yeah. You guys definitely know how to do the marketing thing well and get the word out. We have 1,100 live viewers here. So we got people coming in, tuning in. People are interested in Tari. If you're just discovering this channel for the first time via Tari, please consider subscribing to us, like and share, retweet. Let's continue to get the word out. A new Tari miner tipped the dollar. They're asking pretty much similar. They're having issues with mining. Last night I downloaded Tari universe on PopOS and started merge mining. Where can we go to get support and chat with other miners to solve problems? Please don't say Discord. No, the telegram group is actually... Ric a really good place to do that. Doug Yeah, very active telegram group. Okay, okay. Unfluffy pony tip, 25 cents. Tari on trade org soon, or better yet, ritoswap havino. So yeah, when we start seeing people trading, I guess it's naturally going to happen on its own, especially with something like havino, right? People might just start putting... I think I saw somebody already calling to put offers on havino on Twitter this morning on X. But yeah, when will things officially roll out in terms of being listed on exchanges? Ric Yeah, so I think like stuff like havino and atomic swaps in general, you know, we've got some stuff with that, like toy examples and stuff that we've written conceptually. Excuse me, but obviously depends entirely on like how they want to build it out. We're always happy to support in any way that we can, because I do think more decentralized, like layers for moving between chains or between different financial environments that's super important. So yeah, we're working on all of that or happy to contribute in any way that's meaningful. Yeah, maybe we'll see. Doug We'll see people listing on XMR Bazaar as well for Monero for Tari. Yeah. I also think that one of the things that we work pretty hard to try to communicate to the Tari community yesterday around the launch was, look, it's the birth of a brand new proof of work chain. So there's got to be basically some kind of a warm-up period here where the network finds itself and kind of comes together because, look, as we said earlier, and you know it's not some proof of stake thing that's run on an AWS instance by a guy named Bob, Bob the builder of the L2 who forked Optimism and is running it on AWS. When you have a centralized thing and you have a guy who's just generating a bunch of things, it's very easy for there to be, you know, quote unquote, day one listings and these kinds of things that sometimes you see in other ecosystems. But when something is truly decentralized, like Tari is, you know, from the off the jump, you know, you need to give the network a little bit of time to come together and breathe. You know, so for example, when Tari universe first launched yesterday, there was actually a global issue with P2pool for something like around the first 100 blocks. The first 100 blocks or thereabouts were actually all solo mined because there was sort of an aggregate issue with P2pool. So then the contributors push an update to Tari universe to resolve that issue and resolve the issue. But then it took another, you know, six, seven, eight hours just for P2pool to come together. And because, you know, the network is literally coming together, it's these independent nodes that are all communicating with each other and kind of forming pools along the way. Because, you know, the Tari implementation of P2pool, there's multiple pools. It's not a single pool, you know, there's three pools in the current implementation. And, you know, frankly, contributors are probably going to expand that pretty soon. And then overnight, you had this really amazing outcome where some of the pools are having like over 700 outputs. So that means that there's 700 miners in a single pool who are all receiving portions of block reward based on the computational power that contributed to that block, which is remarkable. But that didn't happen at the very beginning when we when we first fixed the initial, you know, issue that existed for P2pool. So so basically, when you have something like this, you've got to give it a little bit of time. So what we've what we've communicated to the community is that, you know, we think the network warm up period is something like, you know, a couple of weeks, you know, give it give the network a little bit of time to breathe. And that's also really important for anyone who wants to interoperate or integrate with the chain, you know, because you don't want to have a scenario where someone is trying to deposit funds in some exchange and then there's a reorg. Right. You know, that's that's not a great outcome for the exchange or for for the user. So I think it's very important just to like be open and transparent with the community about about like, what does it mean for there to be a new proof of work system? Doug It's been a long time since there's been, you know, sort of a higher profile proof of work launch like this, where there is, you know, some meaningful interest out there in the world. So so that's that's another dimension of this. It's, I think, really important to mention. And I certainly am loving seeing that the jump in in hashrate for Monero, that is that is beautiful to see, you know, as you guys propose, as was the hope, we're seeing it come to fruition. The merge mining with Monero makes sense. Incentives are aligning people that are mining Monero. It's like, well, you might as well mine Tari too, right? Nothing. No, no skin off your back. And it's it's nice to see that it's, you know, and Monero certainly does need help in that sector, right? If that if you know, if you're going to list some of Monero weaknesses, I would I would certainly put that on the on the list. We need more. We need a higher hashrate for sure. So that's that's nice to see. Yeah. And in terms of, you know, being on exchanges versus just starting off with my I've personally, I think that's fantastic. It makes it feel more pure that, you know, the only way you can get Tari right now is by mining it. But with, you know, with this pre-mine, do we expect that, you know, there'll be like a large influx of coins once it does get listed because, you know, a bunch of coins are going to be out there getting released. How is that all going to play out? Naveen I mean, Ric It's been my experience that miners generally, especially early miners, they have a fairly long-term view. And if you're an at-home miner, you add $50 to your electricity bill a month, you really need to sell your tari or manero to cover that. You probably don't. So I don't think we're going to see a large portion of miners go, I need to dump my tokens to be able to like. Yeah, not even the miners. Doug So just because of the pre-mine aspect, is there a lot of a lot of Tari that will come out on the scene overnight as Tari is released from this pre-mine? Yeah. So if you look at the tokenomics, we actually have long lockup periods for pre-mine tokens. So it's not like, oh my gosh, 30% of the supply is going to unlock on day two. And now it's out there in the market. That's not true. There are some tokens that were unlocked day two, day one, whatever, for liquidity purposes. On one hand, we're talking about centralized exchanges or other parties that want to support Tari. Well, there's got to be some supply of Tari. Otherwise, you end up with a not so great outcome out there in the market. There's got to be some float, some liquidity out there, because the amount of Tari tokens that are being mined right now is just, frankly, not very much. It's just not a lot of tokens. But we've worked really hard to ensure that interests are aligned over the long haul with the community. So for example, contributors, it's like a year lockup, and then it's like five, six years. Five years after that, that those tokens are emitted and delivered to contributors in terms of other constituents, similar kind of thing, relatively long periods of time. So the goal here is really to make Tari a minor first ecosystem. I think despite the prima, and I think we've done a decent job of that. It's obviously not perfect, but I think it's like solid. And I think the proof is in the pudding, right? Seeing the sort of initial interest, you can see the hash rate if you go to the Tari block explorer yourself, you can see just what the hash rate is for Tari already as well. And so the goal here is to earn trust with the community. Community people need to obviously over time see, do our actions, mean our words as it relates to these kinds of topics. And also I think I would just point out that the fact that as you well know, we were joking about it. We've been joking about it for a long time, but this thing has been in development for seven years, 10 months. So if we're not long term players, I don't really know how else to show that we're here for the long term any other way. Time is one of those things you can't really hack. So yeah, hopefully Paris Hilton holds on to some of her Tari in a year when things unlock. How did you guys get Paris Hilton involved in this? I always thought that was a pretty funny anecdote. Yeah. I mean, I think as you know, Doug, I come from the music business. That's where I started my career. We have a lot of interesting, colorful characters who are involved with Tari, whether it's Lil Wayne or whether it's Paris Hilton or whether it's GEZ or any of these kinds of folks. A lot. You're very lucky to have people who you wouldn't tip. Can you hear me? Naveen Yep, yep. Doug Hello? Naveen Uh oh. Doug You're good. Okay. Um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really great to have, I think it's really great to have people who, um, you wouldn't normally associate, uh, with a project like this involved because it shows sort of the, you know, the, the scope of the, of the community, right? Like it doesn't just have to be people who believe very strongly, for example, in, in privacy. Um, it can be other people who maybe don't think about that as much. Um, and I'm not speaking specifically about Paris because she actually does care a lot about privacy. Um, it just so happens. Uh, but, uh, I think it's really good to have, you know, a very, very diverse, um, you know, uh, group of people around something like this, because again, that, that speaks to an earlier point about user experience usability meeting users where they are, are we trying to build something for one type of person? Or are we trying to build something that is really for a much broader group of people? And I think the answer for Tara is pretty clear, but the goal is to build something for a broader group of people. Fantastic. Uh, I'll round it out with maybe a more, you know, Monero, Monero focused type of type of question. We talk about the privacy, you know, we're saying Tari doesn't really compete with Monero directly, right? It's not trying to be untraceable digital cash. Uh, it's trying to be programmable, uh, digital cash, right? Um, but in terms of, in terms of privacy in the tech, like how private is Tari, right? So when comparing it to Monero for us, Monero people to kind of understand it, uh, what is, what are the differences between Tari and Monero in terms of it's like practical privacy. When we say it's not as private as Monero, is it that, you know, the, the amount isn't as private, the sender, the receiver, like what are kind of, really it's shortcomings and differences from a privacy perspective. Good. Ric Yeah, good question. So I think the simplest way to think about it is imagine if Monero didn't bring signatures, you know, like that's, that's frankly, the easiest way. So you still can't view the recipient, you can't view the the amount, but you could perform transaction graph tracing. Now, it'd be a little complicated, you'd need to run a node and capture all of the transactions, because there's this thing called transaction cut through in Mimblewimble, which is a scalability thing, where you can throw away old transaction pieces, the transaction graph, because, you know, Alice pays Bob, and then later on, Bob pays, you know, Candace. So that just looks like Alice pays Candace directly, you know, Bob is no longer involved. But of course, I don't know, ABC, Alice pays Bob pays Candace, Charlie. But, you know, ultimately, the the anyone who stored that archive that those transactions in between would know, but anyone who's do syncs from scratch, wouldn't because that that intermediary transaction no longer exists, except if you like tried to run ran some form of archival node, which is not standard, you know, it's not out of the box. So, you know, could Chainalysis do that? Yes. And they probably will, I guess, if the if they want to, but the recipient and the amount of still hidden Doug And then so and when you when you talk in those terms you're talking about layer one And so how about layer two when people are transacting on layer two? What's what's that gonna be like? Ric So layer 2 is a whole different ballgame. The oodle will have all sorts of knobs and programmability bits and pieces that will allow an asset issuer, a digital asset creator, to decide what works for them. You know, do they want maximal privacy for this asset? Do they want no privacy for it? You know, you can imagine if I create an on-chain charity, you know, like for dogs, then people will want to know that, like, the money that they're donating is actually going towards stuff for the dogs and I'm not buying myself a dog-themed Lambo. So, you know, it's important for a digital asset issuer to have the freedom. But as with Monero, by default, it will be extremely private. So, you know, maximally private on the oodle because we, again, we've learned this with Monero. If you give people a choice in the opposite direction, like Zcash has, then nobody's going to touch the privacy stuff. You need to be maximally private by default and then allow users, or in this case digital asset creators, to pull back from it as they see it. Doug Fantastic sky pony tipped again 50 cents looks like you figured out his issue I'm commenting about my previous message on P2 pool problem looks like my VPN was preventing P2 pool from connecting to peers Guys thank you so much Super excited that you know you were you chose Manero talked for one of your for one of your debut shows Awesome Excited to be here and we really appreciate the opportunity to come and connect with you and connect with with the Manero talk audience Yeah, as you guys know you're always welcome on this show you're welcome on Manero topia We'd love to get you guys to participate in the Manero topia conference any You know don't want to put you on the spot any any chance we see that happen. Well, let's talk about it I think last year was challenging because we were just like heads down just trying to get this puppy out the door But now the puppies out the door. So Puppies run around The top puppies running around So so look we love what you do. We love what you guys are doing with Manero topia Yeah, we'll have the conference again in Mexico City in February So looking forward to that, but then we're also gonna be a pork fest Are you guys are you guys going to Manero con? Just throwing it out there if you have people stateside that are interested. Maybe you want to come out Ric We've got to contribute a spoken manner upon. Doug I'm on Tori. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. We'll be streaming all those talks at Porkfest. But if you have anybody that stateside that's interested in coming out to Porkfest, let me know. We'd love to have them over at the Monero Topia tent at Porkfest. It's going to be a scene, a good opportunity to engage with potential early adopters for sure if you guys are interested in that. And that's happening at the same time as MoneroCon. We really appreciate it. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Awesome. Anything you guys want to put out there before we close it out? Any resources or points that we didn't get to bring up? Now's the time. I think we really appreciate the opportunity that you've given us to come and speak to the incredible audience you have. I think Tori's brand new. It's a new approach. And if people are interested in giving it a shot, they should go to Tori.com. They can download the Tari universe just as you did last night. Sorry to hear about your tire, by the way. And let us know what you think. We're really excited to hear people's feedback. We've been getting feedback 24-7 through all the channels, all the various ways. And our sincere hope is that we can bring privacy enhancing, or freedom enhancing, rather, technology to more people by making it wildly easy to use. That's our dream. So hopefully we're able to achieve that dream. All right. And I'll certainly be keeping an eye on it. I'm sure many people here in the Monero community will. And thank you, guys. Fantastic. We'll be in touch. Thank you. Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Adios. Naveen Hi, Monero Land, thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. Monero Talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you. And supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk.crypto in your Monero.com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Once again, thanks so much for listening and we look forward to being back next week. Thanks for watching!