Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Oh No, It's a Boy!

Transcript

Oh No, It's a Boy! · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcasts Oh no,
0:09
Speaker 1: oh no, we're having a boy? Well, Kylie and I
0:11
Speaker 1: aren't having a boy. Did you just get nervous when
0:14
Speaker 1: I said that we're having a boy. But it is
0:18
Speaker 1: all too often an increasingly common refrain. There is this
0:22
Speaker 1: thing called gender disappointment and lately there have been a
0:26
Speaker 1: number of news stories highlighting that parents increasingly are devastated
0:31
Speaker 1: quote unquote by having a baby boy. Today we unpack that,
0:36
Speaker 1: why it's happening, where it's coming from, and what we
0:40
Speaker 1: might want to do about it. All that and more
0:43
Speaker 1: coming up next on the Happy Families podcast. Stay with us.
0:48
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where you
0:50
Speaker 1: get real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's
0:54
Speaker 1: most I was going to say most devastating podcast. It
0:56
Speaker 1: feels like it today Kylie to the Australia's most downloaded
1:00
Speaker 1: parenting podcast. It feels devastating. We are justin Clode Corson,
1:04
Speaker 1: by the way, and we're the parents of six daughters,
1:08
Speaker 1: six girls, and we were frequently asked are you sad?
1:13
Speaker 1: Are you sorry? People would look at us and say,
1:15
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, I am so sorry for you. There
1:18
Speaker 1: was all of this gender disappointment that other people had
1:19
Speaker 1: for us. Today we're talking about the new gender disappointment.
1:22
Speaker 1: Experts are explaining why more parents are devastated by having
1:25
Speaker 1: a baby boy based on an article that appeared a
1:27
Speaker 1: couple of months ago now in the Herald Sun, the
1:30
Speaker 1: Sunday Mail and Adelaide and a couple of other sources.
1:33
Speaker 1: This is a pretty new thing, but it is happening
1:35
Speaker 1: a lot, primarily because we get to see it on
1:37
Speaker 1: social media. Boy, what is wrong with you? I wanted?
1:53
Speaker 2: This just deeply saddens me, like on every level. When
1:58
Speaker 2: we were pregnant, six different times.
2:01
Speaker 1: I think you're holding up ten hands to say six
2:03
Speaker 1: different times I said hands, ten fingers, You've got ten
2:06
Speaker 1: fingers up, because by the time you get to the
2:10
Speaker 1: six one, it's like, are we really going to again?
2:13
Speaker 2: But each time we were asked if we were going
2:14
Speaker 2: to find out and if we were trying for a boy,
2:18
Speaker 2: and the thought never occurred to me that we would
2:22
Speaker 2: try for one or the other. We were just excited
2:25
Speaker 2: to have a healthy baby.
2:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. The discussion was always do we want to have
2:28
Speaker 1: a baby?
2:29
Speaker 2: Yes? No?
2:29
Speaker 1: Do we care what it is? No? If we care
2:31
Speaker 1: what it is, then we need to rethink why we're
2:33
Speaker 1: doing this. I remember you telling me a story once
2:36
Speaker 1: in the hospital where a woman had just given birth
2:40
Speaker 1: to her second daughter. You were in there giving birth
2:42
Speaker 1: to one of our children. I don't remember which one
2:44
Speaker 1: it is, and the husband was most unhappy. I don't
2:47
Speaker 1: know if you recall this or not. And he actually
2:50
Speaker 1: said to his wife, we're going to keep doing this
2:52
Speaker 1: until you get this right.
2:54
Speaker 2: So I vaguely remember that conversation. I have no idea
2:57
Speaker 2: which one it was.
2:58
Speaker 1: I'd stuck with me forever. I was astonished that a
3:01
Speaker 1: man would say that to his wife. I just blew
3:03
Speaker 1: my mind. My boys books about how men need to
3:05
Speaker 1: help the people in their lives feel safer and stronger,
3:08
Speaker 1: and I just it's the antithesis.
3:11
Speaker 2: It seems like such an archaic thought process.
3:14
Speaker 1: Staggering, and yet trends are changing. People are now saying
3:17
Speaker 1: we'd much rather have girls than boys.
3:20
Speaker 2: Well, if you're scared of having boys, you are welcome
3:22
Speaker 2: to come and live in my house for a week,
3:24
Speaker 2: and I promise you you might see the world very differently.
3:28
Speaker 1: The boys are suddenly looking a lot more stable and manageable.
3:30
Speaker 2: The Holy smokes.
3:31
Speaker 1: The emotion laid in everything that we deal on a
3:35
Speaker 1: daily basis so much. Let me share a couple of
3:37
Speaker 1: quotes from this article. It really interested me. So it
3:40
Speaker 1: was by Rebecca Whitfield Baker and it was published, like
3:43
Speaker 1: I said, in news court papers back in feb What
3:46
Speaker 1: she basically says she quotes from the Australian Association of
3:48
Speaker 1: Psychologists director Rachel Sampson, who specializes in childen family well being,
3:53
Speaker 1: saying it's girls who are on the wish list of
3:56
Speaker 1: parents to be and learning they're having a boy can
3:58
Speaker 1: cause and I quote, very high distress.
4:01
Speaker 2: Three two What.
4:06
Speaker 1: Here's another quote from Rachel Sampson. In our psychology clinics,
4:09
Speaker 1: more expectant parents are telling us they fear raising a boy,
4:13
Speaker 1: with some of them reporting high levels of distress. She added,
4:17
Speaker 1: the parent Mental Health and postnatal depression organizations and now
4:21
Speaker 1: offering information on the issue. Here's the quote. Certainly those
4:26
Speaker 1: who are working in the perinatal space or a similar specialty,
4:30
Speaker 1: or do a lot of work with parents are saying
4:31
Speaker 1: the same thing. Gender disappointment has now talked about a lot.
4:35
Speaker 1: We most often hear that it's disappointment around having a boy.
4:39
Speaker 1: It goes beyond gender disappointment to devastation. People have gone
4:45
Speaker 1: from being absolutely thrilled to being pregnant to then finding
4:49
Speaker 1: out the sex of the fetus and no longer being
4:51
Speaker 1: happy to be pregnant.
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Speaker 2: This feels really big, and I don't want to come
4:56
Speaker 2: across a glib or dismissive, because for anybody who feels
5:02
Speaker 2: like that, I can't even stand in their shoes. I
5:06
Speaker 2: can't imagine what it feels like. But I guess as
5:08
Speaker 2: I listen to what you're sharing, a few things stand
5:12
Speaker 2: out to me. My number one devastation and all of
5:14
Speaker 2: this is that there is so much noise in society
5:21
Speaker 2: that parents have forgotten the power of their influence in
5:28
Speaker 2: their children's lives. We talk about cultural norms, and we
5:33
Speaker 2: talk about the climate within our society or a culture
5:38
Speaker 2: in general. But the one culture that will have the
5:43
Speaker 2: biggest determining factor on how your child chooses to live
5:48
Speaker 2: their life will happen within the four wars of your
5:51
Speaker 2: own home.
5:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, family culture, culture of the family, absolutely.
5:54
Speaker 2: And the village you choose to build around them. And somehow,
5:58
Speaker 2: as a parent, we have to drown out the noise.
6:02
Speaker 2: We have to drown out the voices that are screaming
6:05
Speaker 2: for our attention and filling our hearts and our minds
6:10
Speaker 2: with fear, because it actually requires us as parents to
6:16
Speaker 2: stand up, be strong, stand tall, and stand with courage
6:21
Speaker 2: as we move through the parenting journey with our children,
6:25
Speaker 2: hold their hands as we scaffold them, teach them appropriate
6:30
Speaker 2: and valuable values and principles that will guide them throughout
6:34
Speaker 2: their lives and help other people be stronger. But while
6:38
Speaker 2: ever we're listening to this narrative that is so destructive,
6:43
Speaker 2: we actually help create it. I know that there's a
6:46
Speaker 2: lot going on in the media, and there are so
6:49
Speaker 2: many stories about the negative impact of male behavior in general,
6:57
Speaker 2: But what is driving this is what leaving a mum
7:02
Speaker 2: who is excited to have a baby only to find
7:05
Speaker 2: out that she's going to have a boy and now
7:07
Speaker 2: she's devst I don't know. That just breaks my heart.
7:12
Speaker 1: I'm watching you, I'm listening to you try to articulate thoughts,
7:14
Speaker 1: and it's really clear that this is quite impactful for you.
7:17
Speaker 1: After the break, let's talk about where it's coming from,
7:20
Speaker 1: why parents are feeling that way, and perhaps most importantly,
7:22
Speaker 1: what we can do about it. We're back. This is
7:31
Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast Jender Disappointment, gender reveals leading to
7:35
Speaker 1: misery rather than delight and joy. Kylie, you asked the
7:38
Speaker 1: question why there's a couple of things that parents have
7:42
Speaker 1: identified in some research that's been done. A lot of
7:44
Speaker 1: people have this idea that boys are going to be
7:46
Speaker 1: more hyperactive, they're going to be more aggressive, they're not
7:48
Speaker 1: going to be emotional. As a father of six daughters,
7:51
Speaker 1: I think that having a less emotional house wouldn't be
7:53
Speaker 1: a problem just for what it's worth. Like, I'm not
7:57
Speaker 1: but people think that they're going to have a more
7:59
Speaker 1: emotionally close relationship with a daughter. I would question that.
8:02
Speaker 1: I would definitely question that. And they don't think that
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Speaker 1: a boy will care for them when they're older.
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Speaker 2: It's so funny because my stereotype that I've grown up
8:10
Speaker 2: with is the loving big brother, right, idea, who dotes
8:16
Speaker 2: on his parents and will do anything for all of them.
8:20
Speaker 1: The research certainly doesn't support that. Overall, females are much
8:24
Speaker 1: more likely to care for, look after, be involved in
8:26
Speaker 1: the lives of their aging parents than males. Males do
8:29
Speaker 1: seem to move away a lot more and be less involved.
8:32
Speaker 1: So if you're in a situation where that's not the case,
8:34
Speaker 1: That's not what the research typically points to. Parents are
8:37
Speaker 1: also worried about mums specifically, what do I do with
8:40
Speaker 1: the boy? How do I connect with the boy? That
8:42
Speaker 1: seems to be a really common issue. And they're also
8:44
Speaker 1: fearful of raising a boy because of the issues around
8:45
Speaker 1: aggression and family violence and criminal behavior incarceration. I think
8:52
Speaker 1: as well. I found this comment, this quote from somebody
8:57
Speaker 1: who said, a lot of women are concern because they
9:01
Speaker 1: want their boys, if they have them, to be able
9:03
Speaker 1: to express a full range of emotions, and they worry
9:06
Speaker 1: that it might not be equally supported by partners who
9:08
Speaker 1: hold more traditional views about boys needing to be tough.
9:12
Speaker 2: Again, all I hear as you're talking is living into
9:17
Speaker 2: the fear of what could or may happen without giving
9:22
Speaker 2: our children our full support to help them grow into
9:27
Speaker 2: healthy human beings who can make a difference in the world. Yeah,
9:32
Speaker 2: we have no idea what's going to happen in twenty
9:34
Speaker 2: years when they find their perfect match or when they
9:37
Speaker 2: choose to be a when.
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Speaker 1: They start to make a contribution to the world, once
9:40
Speaker 1: they go from being a taker to a giver, which
9:42
Speaker 1: is what every child has to do at some point, but.
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Speaker 2: We don't have any control over that. What we have
9:46
Speaker 2: control over is what happens in our home right now.
9:49
Speaker 1: So I'm going to just say a couple of things,
9:51
Speaker 1: And this is what I've been thinking about for the
9:52
Speaker 1: last four years. Writing off half the population because of
9:55
Speaker 1: their external anatomy, because of the fact they've got outdoor plumbing.
9:59
Speaker 2: It's a perfect way to extinct a whole whole species.
10:03
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. Boys aren't the problem. They're the solution.
10:08
Speaker 1: And while if we look at boys as the problem,
10:09
Speaker 1: that's when we become the problem. Boys are not the problem.
10:13
Speaker 1: They are the solution. What we are trying to do
10:17
Speaker 1: here is stop people being scared of boys. And you
10:20
Speaker 1: know how you do that. You do that by doing
10:21
Speaker 1: stuff that I've written that in my brand new book Boys.
10:24
Speaker 1: You teach boys to help the people around them to
10:26
Speaker 1: feel safer and stronger, to feel and be safer and
10:29
Speaker 1: stronger when boys grow up knowing that they should be
10:33
Speaker 1: ches stackers, that they should be a bonus, that they
10:34
Speaker 1: should be adding value. When we as parents teach them
10:37
Speaker 1: that they will be okay. People are watching stuff like
10:41
Speaker 1: Luther's inside the Manisphere and just thinking, Oh, my goodness,
10:44
Speaker 1: all of our boys are going to turn into these
10:46
Speaker 1: turds that they're exploiting, that are grifting, that are saying
10:50
Speaker 1: these awful things online. I've said it in my book
10:53
Speaker 1: and it's a really provocative claim. I don't think that
10:56
Speaker 1: the manisphere is nearly as influential, nearly as influential as
11:01
Speaker 1: the scare mongers and the media make it out to be.
11:04
Speaker 1: It makes the great headlines, But Kylie, I gave a
11:08
Speaker 1: talk a little over a month ago at a school
11:10
Speaker 1: in Melbourne. It was it was called Gilson College. And
11:15
Speaker 1: what I didn't know is that the week before I
11:17
Speaker 1: gave the talk, the year ten boys had been on
11:19
Speaker 1: camp and there was a small group of these boys
11:22
Speaker 1: that were problematic, to say the least. They'd left a
11:25
Speaker 1: teacher in tears, they had upset the general public, they'd
11:28
Speaker 1: been complaints to the school. The school was trying to
11:30
Speaker 1: work out what to do with them. I'm at the
11:32
Speaker 1: school the next week and I'm giving this talk called
11:35
Speaker 1: Level Up and I'm talking to them about some stuff,
11:38
Speaker 1: and masculinity came up as part of the content, and
11:43
Speaker 1: at the end of the talk, about ten or fifteen
11:46
Speaker 1: boys came and crowded around me, and they started to
11:48
Speaker 1: ask questions about the masculinity stuff I'd been talking about.
11:52
Speaker 1: What I didn't know is that the boys who had
11:53
Speaker 1: caused the problems at the camp were in that semi
11:56
Speaker 1: circle around me asking questions. The head of well being
12:00
Speaker 1: that the whole lot of staff they're listening and watching.
12:02
Speaker 1: They knew who these boys were, and they were like,
12:05
Speaker 1: what are they going to say to Justin? Why are
12:06
Speaker 1: they asking him questions? They're listening one of the boys.
12:11
Speaker 1: I'd been talking about girlfriend boyfriend interactions, and one of
12:14
Speaker 1: the boys said, how do you know when you found
12:16
Speaker 1: the right girl? And all the boys were like, yeah,
12:19
Speaker 1: tell us, how do you know? How do you know?
12:21
Speaker 1: And that led to this conversation about how you're supposed
12:24
Speaker 1: to treat girls and what you should do on a date,
12:26
Speaker 1: and we just had this fifteen or twenty minute conversation.
12:28
Speaker 1: At the end of my talk, it turned into this
12:31
Speaker 1: really long conversation about helping girls feel safer and stronger.
12:34
Speaker 1: They brought it up, how do you know that you're
12:35
Speaker 1: helping them to feel safe and strong? How do you
12:37
Speaker 1: know when you're not? And we got to really dive
12:39
Speaker 1: into some really really fun discussion points. At the end,
12:44
Speaker 1: four or five boys were still there wanting more info,
12:47
Speaker 1: and I had to go and give another talk somewhere else.
12:49
Speaker 1: So I was asked to leave and the boys were
12:51
Speaker 1: told to toddle off. But as I walked away, the
12:53
Speaker 1: teacher who was running the show just said, here's the story,
12:55
Speaker 1: here's who these boys are, here's what's been happening. And
12:58
Speaker 1: she was just like, I cannot believe what just happened.
13:00
Speaker 1: These boys are thirsty for good role models. They're thirsty
13:04
Speaker 1: for definitions and descriptions of what healthy masculinity looks like.
13:08
Speaker 1: They are not interested. They don't want to adopt the
13:11
Speaker 1: lexicon of the manisphere, the troublesome parts of the manisphere.
13:14
Speaker 1: They want goodness, They want good relationships. They want to
13:18
Speaker 1: be perceived socially and economically as viable and potential mates.
13:22
Speaker 1: They want to have rich, fulfilling lives, and we keep
13:26
Speaker 1: on writing boys off.
13:27
Speaker 2: I was about to say, while ever we see boys
13:31
Speaker 2: as the problem, they will never rise above that and
13:34
Speaker 2: they will live to your expectation, and.
13:37
Speaker 1: We are the problem if that's how we're seeing them,
13:38
Speaker 1: because they're not. And I sat there and listened to
13:41
Speaker 1: what these boys were asking and looked at their involvement
13:45
Speaker 1: and the ongoing questions, the things that really engaged and
13:48
Speaker 1: intrigued them. About what I was saying, Kylie, I just
13:50
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, before I knew what they'd been
13:52
Speaker 1: up to the week before, I was like, these kids
13:55
Speaker 1: are gonna make it. These boys are going to be fine.
13:58
Speaker 1: These are good boys, because this already the goodness inside them,
14:01
Speaker 1: it was oozing out of them. And so I asked
14:03
Speaker 1: these earnest, meaningful, rich questions about how they could be
14:07
Speaker 1: better boys. I loved it, and I just I hear
14:11
Speaker 1: these stories and I'm like, can we just get over
14:13
Speaker 1: this gender disappointment and love these kids? If we love them,
14:18
Speaker 1: love them, love them, They're going to do okay.
14:20
Speaker 2: But how much of this do you think actually comes
14:22
Speaker 2: as a result of so much emphasis on the differences
14:26
Speaker 2: in gender. You talk about, like, you know, cultural differences,
14:31
Speaker 2: and we find ourselves in these communities, and we kind
14:34
Speaker 2: of gather to our own kind of cultures within a
14:39
Speaker 2: community group because we associate with the people we're most like. Right,
14:44
Speaker 2: But and so I'm not minimizing the differences that we
14:50
Speaker 2: hold in our own respective genders. However, what I do
14:55
Speaker 2: see is we talk about boys needing to kind of
14:59
Speaker 2: show up and add more and give ad bonus how
15:04
Speaker 2: people feel safe. But that's not a gender thing, now,
15:07
Speaker 2: that's a human thing. That's a human thing, and the
15:09
Speaker 2: values that we want to instill it in our boys
15:12
Speaker 2: are just the same values that we should be instilling
15:15
Speaker 2: in our girls. And so why are we separating them?
15:19
Speaker 2: This is about being a good human.
15:21
Speaker 1: Being, yes, correct. However, biology does tend to push boys
15:27
Speaker 1: specifically away from what biology seems to draw girls into,
15:32
Speaker 1: which is safer and stronger. And whether that's because of
15:34
Speaker 1: the socio cultural conditioning across millennia, or whether it's because
15:38
Speaker 1: of genetics or a combination of the two, it probably
15:40
Speaker 1: is both of them. Out I've written about this really
15:42
Speaker 1: explicitly in the book. When you have this scenario where
15:48
Speaker 1: boys are drawn to warfare and wrestling and making themselves
15:54
Speaker 1: big and having the antelopes antlers, and then you add
15:57
Speaker 1: to it the cultural conditioning that boys are meant to
15:59
Speaker 1: be all these things, what that does is it pulls
16:03
Speaker 1: boys in a direction that is not as pro social,
16:05
Speaker 1: whereas girls, through both genetics and conditioning, are taught to
16:08
Speaker 1: be extremely pro social.
16:10
Speaker 2: But I think so much of girls pro social behavior
16:14
Speaker 2: as people pleasing.
16:15
Speaker 1: Yeah unfortunately, Yeah, that's right. I'm not arguing that's healthy either,
16:18
Speaker 1: but we're talking about the boys today specifically. The other
16:20
Speaker 1: thing that I would say, though, is when we try
16:22
Speaker 1: to bring everyone together, that's where the manisphere has really exploded,
16:25
Speaker 1: because there are too many people who are trying to
16:28
Speaker 1: turn boys into male versions of girls, and they're trying
16:32
Speaker 1: to soften them and get them to be all emotional,
16:34
Speaker 1: in touch with their emotions and really really coddled and
16:37
Speaker 1: gentle inclined, and boys actually really want to use their bodies.
16:40
Speaker 1: They want to be strong, they want to be able
16:42
Speaker 1: to flex and have their biceps pop so that they
16:45
Speaker 1: can either be intimidating or prove that they can protect.
16:48
Speaker 1: And so we're seeing the various voices on the periphery
16:52
Speaker 1: of the manisphere, the unhealthy people there arguing you need
16:56
Speaker 1: to reclaim your status as a strong man, as a
16:59
Speaker 1: protector provider, And so we get this pull back towards that,
17:03
Speaker 1: but in unhealthy ways. It's often associated with a whole
17:06
Speaker 1: lot of scamming and drifting and only fans and that
17:08
Speaker 1: kind of thing. The whole argument that I'm making in
17:11
Speaker 1: the book Boys, which you can pre order now book
17:13
Speaker 1: Toopia dot com, and I'd love for you to do it.
17:14
Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes. The whole
17:16
Speaker 1: argument that I'm making is that Number One, we shouldn't
17:18
Speaker 1: be disappointed without having a boy or a girl, like,
17:19
Speaker 1: let's just celebrate the joy. So many people can't have children.
17:22
Speaker 1: Let's celebrate the joy that we're having a baby. Number Two,
17:25
Speaker 1: when we raise them an environment that is supportive and
17:27
Speaker 1: loving and teach them to help the people around them
17:28
Speaker 1: feel safer and stronger, they're going to be just fine.
17:31
Speaker 1: I wanted to raise this story today because I keep
17:34
Speaker 1: hearing it. I've spoken to so many parents who say, oh, yeah,
17:37
Speaker 1: I'm a boy mum, and they actually kind of cover
17:38
Speaker 1: their eyes, they hang their head, they don't want to
17:41
Speaker 1: own up to it. And I just I want boy
17:44
Speaker 1: mums to stand up and be really strong about it
17:45
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I'm raising great boys. I'm so proud
17:47
Speaker 1: of my boys.
17:48
Speaker 2: I need them to raise great boys.
17:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we've got daughters that are looking for great boys. Honestly. Yeah. Anyway,
17:53
Speaker 1: that's the story today. We'd love to get your feedback
17:57
Speaker 1: on it. You can jump into our social pages and
17:59
Speaker 1: tell us what you think about this gender disappointment challenge
18:02
Speaker 1: but happy found. His podcast is produced by Justin roll
18:04
Speaker 1: On from Bridge Media. Mim Haven's provides our additional resources
18:07
Speaker 1: and admin support. If you'd like to know more about
18:09
Speaker 1: the Boys book, just google it. We'll go to book
18:11
Speaker 1: toopia dot com dot au and pre order Boys now.
18:13
Speaker 1: It comes out on June sixteen, Boys Building Strong Young
18:16
Speaker 1: Men from the inside Out. It's available for pre order
18:19
Speaker 1: now