Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / You Don't Have to Be on the Same Page: Relationships, Faith & Money — Sara Payne
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (01:05) Sarah Payne, thanks so much for being on middle ground. Sara Payne (01:09) Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Brynne Erickson (01:12) Yeah, this is gonna be an awesome conversation. Sarah is a relationships coach. And I've been talking to a lot of people, not only about differences in parenting, how you use your money, but a big topic lately is when you're not on the same page with religion and church. And I thought of Sarah when I was like, who can I talk to about how to handle these Sara Payne (01:39) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (01:40) situations? So we're gonna be talking about when you're not on the same page in general in relationships. So Sarah, take it away. Sara Payne (01:49) Awesome. Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me when, you know, and when you and I have been talking about this back and forth is that I think the biggest problem that couples have that needs to be addressed is that it's a problem to not be on the same page. It's like, it's like that's just the baseline. yeah, like we're not on the same page. And then in parentheses of that, and that's a huge problem. And I think Brynne Erickson (02:12) Mm. Sara Payne (02:13) that before anything else is worth questioning. Like What if it's not a problem if we're not on the same page with religion? What if it's not a problem if we're not on the same page with parenting and and then to go from there? Because I I believe that me and my husband aren't on the same page with like 99% of our world views. But I see Brynne Erickson (02:37) Mm. Sara Payne (02:37) that as like something that adds a lot of depth to my marriage and our relationship and also to my children. Like I think it's I think it's beautiful that they get to see have two parents who think about the world and and view the world so differently. I remember I I believe it was Jennifer Finlays and Fife who first said to this statement that like kind of totally blew my mind. She said, We're all living in a mixed-faith marriage, like every single one of us, not just those of us who who grew up in. different religions or or when one person has stepped away from a s a certain religion and another person is still in it. Like what if we're all in mixed faith marriages? And I and I really like that. Brynne Erickson (03:21) I love that because so often we know what we think we know where a person's faith is, especially in the LDS faith, by what they're doing, right? So if you're going Sara Payne (03:33) Mm. Brynne Erickson (03:35) to church, you're going doing your calling, you're ministering, you see them praying, you see them reading scriptures, you're going to the temple, then in your mind, at least for me, in this moment of reflection, it's like, we're good because we're We are showing that our f we're faithful enough. Like our faith is on Sara Payne (03:53) Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (03:57) track. And yet I think that there's a lot to be said about that, that we're all in a mixed faith marriage. And how often do we just sit? And it's like, tell me your like where you're at. Or at least in my marriage, we never really read scriptures together or had family home evening. But like I never really worried that much about where my husband's. faith was because he had no problem going to church and he had no problem doing his calling and yeah, I've never thought of that before. But that is kind of mind blowing and actually really liberating too. Sara Payne (04:32) Yeah, it takes the pressure off because then you're not always thinking that you have to be doing it the same way or believing it it the same way in order for things to be working out. And you and I have talked about this a little bit, but it's but I think we've both been through like maybe not the same experience, but similar like trajectories with our faith where like who I was when I got married is nowhere. Like I'm not the same person that I was and my husband's not the same person. And there's no way to know that when you get married. But I don't think I ever thought like, yeah, like we're gonna believe this certain way now and then we're gonna change how we believe and I'm gonna change one way and he's gonna change another. But you can't really predict that. And when you let go of this idea that you have to be on the same page, then it can be so freeing, like you said, and it can just be like, let me. Like, what if my goal weren't to get him on the same page as me? What if my goal were just to understand him? Like and to and to see the world from his perspective Brynne Erickson (05:37) Mm. Sara Payne (05:38) and and not having to agree with it at all. But maybe it will change my mind. It might. But what if if neither of us have to be on the same page, then we can just have our goal be understanding. And then all of a sudden we're on the same team, even though we might not be on the same page. Brynne Erickson (05:53) So how from at least an LES perspective, you Sara Payne (05:58) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (05:59) get married in the temple, you Sara Payne (06:01) Mm-hmm Brynne Erickson (06:01) both walk the covenant path together, so that the end result is you are with your eternal family with God and Jesus again. So all of this perspective is really great and beautiful, but it doesn't align with the outcome. in the LDS church that we're striving for. At least that's the way I had visualized it and realiz or saw it for a long time. Sara Payne (06:32) Yeah, so let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. You're saying, like, yeah, that's all fine and good, except that like if we're not on the same page, we're not gonna be in heaven together. So like, what Brynne Erickson (06:39) Yeah. Yes. Sara Payne (06:41) do I do when my husband's decided he doesn't wanna believe or participate in the same way that he promised me he would the day we got married? Brynne Erickson (06:48) Or me, like right, like either person. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (06:49) Yeah, either or right. Right. Cause there I think there can be a lot of guilt associated with the person who maybe has a different, you know, who's who's changing their beliefs or their outlook. Like, yeah, I I I actually am not living up to what I said I was, but I can't also deny myself and be untrue. Like I can't fake it for the next 40 years or whatever, you Brynne Erickson (07:11) Right. Sara Payne (07:12) know. And listen, I do not have all the answers. I so I'm just gonna share what's been useful to me and and And and I think that I think that this is not just these aren't principles that are just useful in the marriage, but also with our children and with our our loved ones and and anyone who sees things differently than we do. I think at least for me, like it was really easy to grow up with this very narrow idea of what it looked like to be a person who was like holding to the iron rod or like on the covenant path. And like if Brynne Erickson (07:48) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (07:48) I wasn't doing XYZ, then I'm not gonna be able to be with my family forever. And that is very painful when you're no longer doing that or you the people that you care about are. It's like the whole idea of like, yeah, this is all fine and good until there's empty chairs at the table in heaven. And I'm not, Brynne Erickson (08:08) Mm. Sara Payne (08:08) I'm like, it's like I'll be darned if I let my kids or my spouse not be in heaven with me that right. And I just like find a lot of peace in like, like I said, I don't have all the answers, but like, what if it's better than we can possibly imagine? And like, like, I d I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I believe in a God who is always better than we can imagine. And I also like becoming a parent, I've just thought a lot more about our heavenly parents. And I just have a heart. This is again doctrine of Sarah, but it helps me in the way that I live my life. I cannot imagine parents. Sending their beloved children far away to learn and grow, if there was any possible way that they we we weren't gonna be able to be with them again. Like that, like that's like that brings me a lot of comfort. Yeah. Like I don't have like they have a perfect love, a love that like we've been told is like like take the purest, I think as President Korf said. Take the purest, most beautiful love you can possibly imagine and multiply it by infinity. And that's the measure of God's love for you. Like that blows my mind. I Brynne Erickson (09:15) Yeah. Sara Payne (09:16) can't imagine that because I know the love that I have for my children and for my for my partner, right? But I just I just choose to believe, like, yeah, I don't, I don't maybe I maybe it's not my job to figure all that out. Maybe I just trust in heavenly parents who every time I pray, they're not worried. But they're like, it's okay that you're worried, Sarah. But like just so you know, we're like not biting our nails off, fretting, thinking that everything has gone wrong because we gave your husband or your child agency. So that helps Brynne Erickson (09:50) Yeah. Sara Payne (09:50) me a lot. And then I can relax a little bit. Brynne Erickson (09:54) Right, because how do we show up for our families when we're constantly stressed and worried and trying to save everyone and save our marriage? Sara Payne (10:02) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (10:03) Like, to me, that's that was the whole purpose that Jesus came. Like, why are we trying to do his job when it has already Sara Payne (10:13) Yes. Brynne Erickson (10:14) been done? And I I'm in line with you. Like, I just especially becoming a parent and you think of your own children. And if we want them with us no matter what, and if God loves us and wants us ten times a thousand times more than we can imagine, at least that's the God I choose to believe in as Sara Payne (10:39) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (10:39) well. Sara Payne (10:40) It's so it's so interesting how fundamental that becomes, right? Like, like who do I believe God is? That affects like how I live in the world so much more than I ever understood and Brynne Erickson (10:52) Yes. Sara Payne (10:53) you know, initially. And it's actually really beautiful because I just get to choose to believe in a in a certain God. And like I choose like one that's more loving and and compassionate and understanding than I can possibly even like it blows my mind, you know, that I I can't even understand. And I think that when I am show up worried and afraid that like I'm not gonna be with my family forever, I get I go really crazy. Like I get super controlling. I try to micromanage everything. And I make myself miserable and I'm pretty sure I make the people in my life Brynne Erickson (11:34) Ray. Sara Payne (11:35) miserable too. So I'm like wanting to be with these people forever, but I'm like pushing them away in right here and now because Brynne Erickson (11:48) There you go. Sara Payne (11:49) of my fear. And so what if instead I shifted that fear to love and just focused on what it looks like to love someone and and and like let that be my my mission. Let that be like my ministry, right? So then they don't have to convince them to go to church with me if that's not the path they're on. I can just like bring Jesus in my heart with me wherever I go. And I'm gonna love like him and I'm gonna love love them like he would. Brynne Erickson (12:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was kind of my prayer as my world was kind of like felt like it was crumbling around me as family members were choosing different paths. And I remember just like pleading with God, like, what do you think about these family members? Like, help me to see them the way that you see them. And that just opened the floodgates of love and acceptance and Like, I've got them. They're great. I think Sara Payne (12:53) Mm. Brynne Erickson (12:53) they're great. What do you think about them? Like, they're doing awesome. Sara Payne (12:56) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (12:57) And I was like, can it really be that simple that we really can just be the most loving, filled with light individuals that we can be? And that is enough. And that just allowed me to love them as they are and to get curious about their choices without judgment. I mean, it's one thing to disagree, but like for me, now that I've realized in this omnipotent loving God that no matter what choices we make, that love is always there. It helps me want to strive and do the same for other people, which is hard to do, especially when you don't agree. Sara Payne (13:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's so interesting too because those relationships where we have to like, you know, expand our capacity to love, Brynne Erickson (13:50) Mm. Sara Payne (13:50) those are like the ones that help us become more like God. Because Brynne Erickson (13:54) Mm. Sara Payne (13:55) my kids are really easy to love when like they do exactly what I tell them to do and live their the life exactly the way I think they should live it. And my my husband too, right? But when When they are making choices that I disagree with, then I like the rubber meets the road. And then I get to like ex expand my capacity to love. Then I get to stretch myself. And that's when I become more Christlike. When I'm like when I'm stretching myself and loving even when it's hard to love. Brynne Erickson (14:27) And if the whole point is to learn to love better and to stretch ourselves, then of course we wouldn't be on the same page in our marriages. And our relationships. Sara Payne (14:37) Yeah, exactly. Brynne Erickson (14:39) Like it's essential. It's in it's a natural necessity within our relationships. And yet we fight it and we resist it like it's not supposed to be there. And it's not supposed to be a part of that relationship. When I The reality is is that's how it gets stronger, wouldn't you say? Sara Payne (14:59) Mm-hmm. Totally. Why do you think we resist it so much? Like, why do you think we fight against like not being on the same page Brynne Erickson (15:05) Hmm. Sara Payne (15:06) so much? Brynne Erickson (15:08) Because it feels uncomfortable, first of all. At least I don't think it has to feel uncomfortable, but my mind like tells me something's wrong here. Like we need Sara Payne (15:21) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (15:23) to figure this out. And that feels just heavy. And then you have to solve it, which takes effort and like talk about it and figure it out. Sara Payne (15:36) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (15:37) Which takes effort. And I was thinking about relationships before coming on to this episode. And I was like, that's really what it comes down to, is we just don't want to have to do the work to to figure things out sometimes. Like it's just easier it's easier to be on the same page. It's like you got that? Yeah. You understand? Yeah. Sara Payne (15:58) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (15:58) Rather than no, I don't. Wait, what do you mean you don't? Like now we have to we have to figure this out. Sara Payne (16:05) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's so validating to have somebody agree with your world views, right? It's like Brynne Erickson (16:09) Right. Yes. Sara Payne (16:11) a boost to the ego. And I don't like I think that's part Brynne Erickson (16:14) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (16:14) of being human too. And it's like, let me question all of that. Let me be willing to like live in the wrestle that is someone seeing things differently and being able to separate the person from like. their views, like your feelings about what they believe versus your feelings about them. I think, I think it's good to separate those, you know, and instead of like coupling like a person is what they believe. It's just like, no, like I, I feel like God does this with us all the time. Like I love you no matter what. Like there is nothing you could do to increase or decrease that love. It is just perfect and unchangeable. And you might be wrong about the way you're viewing this person in your life. And if you want to like you, you you spoke to this with your own family members. You asked the question, which I think is beautiful, but it's almost like our heavenly parents are inviting us. Like, if you want to see them the way that we see them, we will show you. We we won't if you want to, we we that's available to you. Brynne Erickson (17:24) And that's really beautiful. I I think for me, I I testify to Sara Payne (17:30) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (17:32) really doing that work. not doing the work of changing people, doing the work of seeing them as they are, and giving them permission to evolve and change and give ourselves permission to evolve and change our minds. And that is, I think, the way that we can find the most love and beauty and happiness in this light in this life. Because if we're always fighting against that, you're just gonna be angry and miserable and sad all the time. And that doesn't seem Sara Payne (18:08) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (18:09) like a fun way to spend your time here. Sara Payne (18:12) Right, and self-righteous. And like you can be right. You can be right. But like, what is the cost of that? You know? And I like I speak that like I'm a relationship coach. I've like dedicated my life to studying relationships and reading all the relationship things. And I still am like, no, listen. You know, sometimes with my husband, like, you need to see it. My like I have to catch myself. Brynne Erickson (18:36) Yeah. Sara Payne (18:37) I think it's just a natural tendency. To feel threatened when someone has a different worldview than you, you know, and I think too like we live in an age where information is so available Brynne Erickson (18:50) Mm. Sara Payne (18:50) to us at any time. And so, like, it can I have totally been guilty of being like self-righteous about my knowledge about things. Like, no, you think you're parenting right, but like I've read all the books, and so you need to listen to my way, right? Versus like taking a step back and being like, okay. If my belief in God is that God loves us so much, like that he will give us like all the experiences we need to see who we really are. Like that's the purpose of his life, to see who we really are and to learn to love like he loves, then why am I questioning that like my partner is anything but the very best steward for my children as a father? To learn that. And that doesn't mean he's perfect. It actually means he's completely imperfect and that they are going to learn just as much from his mistakes as they are from his strengths. And like, what if I trusted that? This doesn't mean I don't, I don't want this to come across as like, yeah. So like let your partner do whatever. Like, we all have boundaries. And if if my husband were Brynne Erickson (20:01) Ray. Sara Payne (20:02) like abusing our children, that's not like that's not what I'm talking about, you know. But I'm like, Brynne Erickson (20:06) Yeah. Sara Payne (20:07) So if he does things a little bit more old school than me and a little bit more traditional, maybe like a little bit more the way his parents parented him, and I'm like all enlightened and I'm doing it the way that like the latest researcher said is the best way, like what it like what if I just questioned that there's number one, anything wrong with that, that we cannot be on the same page that way. And number two, that like maybe he's doing it exactly the way that they need from him. Brynne Erickson (20:36) Mm. Sara Payne (20:36) It's just we're it I think it's a fun game to question versus standing in our like own self-righteousness, which like I'm laughing because Brynne Erickson (20:44) Mm. Sara Payne (20:44) I've totally been there and be like, he's doing it. Good thing they have me as their mom because he's like I'm having to correct all this stuff that he's like too busy or is too unimportant for him to like study the way that I've studied, you know. Brynne Erickson (21:01) Hey, really quick, if you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance you're in the middle of something. Questions you haven't said out loud yet, a faith that feels different than you used to. And I've actually built a community. It's called Faith in Process. It's exactly for people like you and like me. It's actually the space I wish I had when I was in the middle of my big questions and when my faith was shifting. It's a membership community. Specifically for Latter-day Saints who are expanding their faith and want to do it in good company. And if that sounds like you, come and join us. The wait list is open at Bryn Erickson.com/slash wait list. I hope to see you there. Brynne Erickson (21:44) Yes. It's so true. And again, it comes down to that, like there's n if we didn't have the opposition or the bad parenting moments, then no one would be able to grow. Like we wouldn't be able to grow as parents. Our kids wouldn't be able to grow as individuals within our household. If everyone was just always kumbaya, happy, like we wouldn't know any different. So Sara Payne (22:07) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (22:11) Yes, I've I've heard Jody Moore say we're fifty percent good parents and fifty percent bad parents. And when I'm and I reflect at both all the time and Sara Payne (22:20) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (22:21) I'm saying, that was that worked gr well. I'm gonna do that again. that didn't work so well. How could I maybe approach this differently with my kids? Cause if we're here to grow and learn and become, that's how it's going to happen, rather than micromanaging and having unrealistic expectations. And fighting against who people are. And I love the more seeing that light of what if this is exactly what this child needs in this moment. It's not how I would do it, but Sara Payne (22:53) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (22:54) obviously there's going to be something that can be learned from this moment for everyone, the Sara Payne (22:58) Totally. Totally. Brynne Erickson (23:00) people observing, the parent doing the reprimanding, the child receiving it, like. We don't always just have to beat ourselves up all the time. I think if we just allowed more grace for each other and compassion and leaned more into that, right, than the fear, then we Sara Payne (23:16) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (23:17) would just all feel so much more empowered in our roles within our relationships. Sara Payne (23:23) And I feel like grace in particular, as we give it to others, It's so much easier to give to ourselves and vice versa. Brynne Erickson (23:28) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (23:29) So it's like if I can give my husband grace for this mistake, mistake in quotes that he made, then maybe it's gonna be easier for me to give myself grace because I'm for sure gonna screw things up, you know? And then just rem Brynne Erickson (23:41) Yeah. Sara Payne (23:42) remembering too that like I think it was. Dr. Becky, maybe that said it's not about not rupturing, it's the repair that really matters. It's like Brynne Erickson (23:51) Mm. Sara Payne (23:52) the mistakes that I make actually give me an opportunity to repair with my kids. That if I never made Brynne Erickson (23:58) Absolutely. Sara Payne (23:59) mistakes, if I always did everything by the book and write and the way that you know we're supposed to quote unquote do, then I can't show my kids what it looks like to repair and what it looks like to be like, hey, mom messed up here. Can I have a do-over? You know, it's like you're showing them repentance in action when you're doing that. When you're not you Brynne Erickson (24:20) Yes. Sara Payne (24:21) only are you showing them like repair is possible, but like you can change your mind and you can and it's okay to to make mistakes and this is how we're gonna fix it. Brynne Erickson (24:32) Right. Yeah. And Sara Payne (24:32) Which I think is really beautiful. Brynne Erickson (24:35) Right. And it's real life. Like you can try as hard as you want to be perfect, whatever that is. I think we use perfection as like the without making an error. And there's not even a way that that's humanly possible. Never. Sara Payne (24:51) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (24:52) So I feel like that's just a battle. You're always gonna lose. So you might as well turn the battle to okay, how often can I repair and say I'm sorry and acknowledge that I messed up? And make it right. And that's what Sara Payne (25:06) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (25:07) I think we were trying to be taught when we learn about repentance and atonement. It's just that acknowledging, becoming aware, and then trying to make it right or better. Sara Payne (25:21) Yeah. And I I I feel like President Nelson in particular just like totally shifted repentance for us as a a church wide, just like it can actually be joyful. Like it can be like, my goodness, like I thought this one thing when I woke up today and now I'm changing. I think it's the Bible dictionary that says like the first line of what the definition of repentance is to change one's mind. I love that. It's like that's Brynne Erickson (25:44) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (25:46) what if it can truly be that simple. Like I woke up with this belief about myself and the world and God, and I'm going Brynne Erickson (25:52) Mm. Sara Payne (25:53) to bed with a different belief. That's so fun. Brynne Erickson (25:56) I love that. Especially where those terms have always been like super hard and heavy, like like load, Sara Payne (26:02) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:03) a burden, something to really have to carry and overcome. When it it really doesn't have to be that all the time. Sara Payne (26:08) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember as a kid just being like, just don't screw up bad enough that you have like get somebody else involved in this. Like you don't ever want Brynne Erickson (26:16) Hmm. Sara Payne (26:19) to have to talk to the bishop about this. You know, like just stuff like that. That's like, really though? Brynne Erickson (26:24) Yeah. Sara Payne (26:24) Like, is that like that's a scary way Brynne Erickson (26:27) All it is. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (26:28) to live, you know? Versus like there's always an a way to change. Always. I think it was Elder Holland that said, like, there's it's not possible for you to go move beyond the light of Christ's love or I'm butchering Brynne Erickson (26:43) Mm. Sara Payne (26:44) that quote, but something like that. Like, what if we really believed that? Like nobody's too far gone, nobody. How would we parent different? How would we treat our partner different? How would we treat ourselves different? Brynne Erickson (26:55) Yeah, definitely. do you have any advice on like How to handle situations. Obviously, there's some thoughts we can play with. But like it when something does need to be like done, like how we're spending our money. So I spend Sara Payne (27:16) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (27:17) our money differently than my husband spends the money. And he's not okay with how I'm spending our money. But I think it's necessary how we spend our money, you know? So, like, how Sara Payne (27:27) Sure. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (27:28) do we handle those situations that are truly like tangible, like they're actionable Sara Payne (27:32) Yeah, yeah. Brynne Erickson (27:33) kind of scenarios. Sara Payne (27:35) Yeah. first off, I think it's good to just point out, like, okay, so tell me a couple who is all is completely on the same page with finances. I haven't met one yet. So, like, first off, totally normal, right? Totally Brynne Erickson (27:50) Okay. Sara Payne (27:51) normal. And if we're gonna be like super stereotypical and gendered, or even just like with our own culture, like it's more common. in our culture that the husband is the primary breadwinner and the wife is either a secondary breadwinner or staying at home with the kids. Brynne Erickson (28:10) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (28:11) And that usually means that while he's the one like with the name on his his name on the paycheck, the the woman is the one at home spending and allocating most of the funds. So like Brynne Erickson (28:23) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (28:23) that's in and of itself kind of a recipe for like friction sometimes. I think that a couple of things that have really been useful to me and to my clients, like, okay, there is, and your your kids are a little bit younger, but I'm sure you can relate to this with like your toddler. Like there's a time when your toddler's open to receiving a difficult conversation, and there's other times when they're not. So If they're hungry and they skipped their nap and then it's bedtime and then you just like let their brother play with their favorite toy, like you're probably not gonna be like, now Brynne Erickson (29:00) Ha ha Sara Payne (29:00) let's talk about how you need to change XYZ. adults aren't that much different than children. So if I want to have a conversation, or I feel like maybe it's not even I want to, but I want the result Brynne Erickson (29:15) Mm. Sara Payne (29:15) of having a conversation with my husband about finances. Brynne Erickson (29:18) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (29:18) I'm going to be strategic about when I talk to him about it. Brynne Erickson (29:24) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (29:24) So, like, maybe it's not going to be when I know he's tired and hungry and had a hard day at work or the stock market never like lost a bunch of money, whatever, might affect Brynne Erickson (29:34) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (29:35) his, you know, his mood. I'm going to like give him options and be like, hey, like, I know that like. historically talking about money has been kind of a challenge for us. And I care about you and I care about us and I care about our finances. And and I really want to understand where you're coming from. And I want to give you the chance to understand where I'm coming from. So do Brynne Erickson (29:56) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (29:57) you think we could talk about it like sometime over the next couple of days? Like when would be a good time? So then already you're giving him options instead of like bombarding him with like No, now it's gotta be now. I was told that Brynne Erickson (30:09) Mm. Sara Payne (30:09) we never go to bed angry, so it has to be right now, right? And then, and Brynne Erickson (30:13) Right. Sara Payne (30:15) then I think similarly, instead of having your goal be like, he needs to see things the way I see them, aka he needs to be on the same page as me. It's Brynne Erickson (30:25) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (30:25) going to be more of a like, I really want to understand where he's coming from. And I wanna. I want to be able to explain myself in a way that's not defensive so that he can understand where I'm coming from. And maybe we agree and maybe we don't. But at least Brynne Erickson (30:45) Mm. Sara Payne (30:46) we can come to at least we can be on the same page that like we want to understand each other. And what I found over and over with my in my own marriage and with my clients is while we don't think that the way to get there is the Like we're not in agreement on the way to get there. We very Brynne Erickson (31:06) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (31:07) often have similar goals. Like, yeah, you want financial freedom. I want financial freedom. I think the way to get there is XYZ and you think the way to get there is ABC. But like good, good to know we both want the same thing. And Brynne Erickson (31:24) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (31:24) then it can then you're working together instead of like you're you're teammates instead of in opposition with one another. So I think it's really easy to fall into the like, he doesn't understand me, he doesn't get it, he how hard it is for me. I'm I'm saving us so much money by spending this money now, whatever it is, right? But Brynne Erickson (31:44) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (31:44) it's like, okay, We both have the same goals, even though we we have a different outlook on how to get there. Now I can Brynne Erickson (31:50) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (31:51) just be open and feel a lot less threatened by when he. asks me pointed questions about the way I'm spending Tell me what you think about that. Brynne Erickson (32:02) I, for me personally, because this is definitely kind of a pain point I would say that the underlying thought for me that still shows up giving me resistance is the like he should be okay with how I'm spending the money and why does he not agree with me and why is he still so stressed about this when I'm doing such a good job? And Sara Payne (32:29) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (32:30) and that might not even be true. Like that might just be me reading him and Taking that information and or interpreting it as that. Sara Payne (32:43) Yeah, which is so self aware, by the way, for you to be like, Maybe this is in my head. Maybe I'm looking through the lens of he's always stressed about money. So I interpret everything he does as that. Brynne Erickson (32:55) And I think I and I I do because I n he's like voiced like if or to sustain our lifestyle, like I have to bring in this much money, which means I have to chart this much more. And so I I wanna be sensitive to his thought process. But I also have like my goals and aspirations. But it's hard because I'm not making the money. There it is. It's I think it's hard because I'm not making Sara Payne (33:22) Mm. Brynne Erickson (33:23) the money, but I'm the one responsible for using it. And I have a way that I want to use it. And and then I know he doesn't like bringing it up because I get so like triggered and I get defensive like immediately. Like, how Sara Payne (33:35) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (33:38) dare you question how I am Spending our Sara Payne (33:40) Right. Brynne Erickson (33:41) money again, because I think I'm doing an awesome job. And he is super validating and sweet and good about it. But when I do it's when I do feel brave enough to be like, okay, all right, let's like can I show you the budget or what do you want to talk about with money? And he's like, I don't know that I wanna set off the money bomb right now. So it's not even it's Sara Payne (34:04) Yeah, yeah. Brynne Erickson (34:05) like I don't wanna talk about it, but because I don't wanna feel my own feelings. about talking about it with him. That was a lot of word vomit. Any thoughts? Sara Payne (34:14) No, I no, I think yes, yeah. And I think it's very self-aware of you to like recognize that you're getting triggered, right? And so you can like go into it, knowing like, okay, some of the things he says are probably gonna be hard for me to hear and in real time I'm gonna like breathe through it. And I might even narrate to him, like, okay, when you just said that, I this is what you said, but what I heard was you suck at the budget or whatever, right? And so I'm I'm just letting you know this because I'm really want to work on this. And I don't want this to be such a charged topic for us. And because our our relationship and our money too, it matters to me. But I'm just like letting you know. So like I feel like already, Bryn, you're taking so much responsibility for how like you're showing up. It's so much harder when the person who's getting defensive like doesn't know that they're getting defensive, Brynne Erickson (35:08) Mm. Sara Payne (35:09) you know. And And so you're already recognizing that. So I just want to point that out. And then Brynne Erickson (35:12) Yeah. Huh. Sara Payne (35:14) I think that it's just worth questioning because I sense that there's like a part and tell me if I'm wrong, that there's a part of you that's like, what tell remind me your husband's name? Brynne Erickson (35:23) Dallin. Sara Payne (35:25) There's a part of you that's like looking to down like okay, so I just need to budget in a way that Dallin won't be stressed out. And then we're good. Like like you're looking to him to not Brynne Erickson (35:33) Basically Sara Payne (35:35) be stressed. Brynne Erickson (35:37) Kind of, but I'm not willing to ch like I'm very happy with the budget, but I'd rather Sara Payne (35:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (35:41) just not talk about it and let me do what I want. Sara Payne (35:44) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (35:45) Which is such a like childish way of doing it. It's you know, it's like Sara Payne (35:50) Not necessarily how is that working out for you? Brynne Erickson (35:54) I mean it it's working fine Sara Payne (35:56) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (35:57) and he's told me like it's just easier to not talk about it. But I know that he would like to and I would like to be able Sara Payne (36:05) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (36:05) to talk to him about it without being so charged and defensive Sara Payne (36:09) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (36:10) and dramatic it like feels so dramatic to talk about it. And I don't I don't love that. Sara Payne (36:16) Yeah, and like let's just normalize that like money for most of us is charged. Like we all have a lot of like thoughts and beliefs about money. So it's naturally going to be like just because of our conditioning, it's going to be something that is charged for a lot of us. And Brynne Erickson (36:32) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (36:32) you can de-escalate that by like recognizing it and like working through it in real time. And then You can also get to the place where if you want, you can be like, it's okay if he's stressed out. And I don't have to be. And I don't have to take that personally either. Because Brynne Erickson (36:52) Hmm. Yeah. Sara Payne (36:54) Dallin is stressed about money because of what he's thinking about money, not Brynne Erickson (36:58) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (36:59) because of what you're doing with the money. 'Cause he has thoughts about your spending and then he gets stressed out. Brynne Erickson (37:08) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sara Payne (37:10) And so I just think it's good to separate those. And and I don't what I don't want people to hear is like, I'm just gonna let my husband know that he is not stressed out about me. He stressed out Brynne Erickson (37:19) Ha ha ha. Sara Payne (37:20) his own thoughts. That's an inside job. Usually to work on yourself. Brynne Erickson (37:22) Yes. Sara Payne (37:26) Because then what we're really saying is like, I need you to work on you so I can feel good about Brynne Erickson (37:30) Mm. Sara Payne (37:30) you not being stressed out, so I don't have to work on my thoughts about you. Right. Brynne Erickson (37:33) Correct. Right. Sara Payne (37:34) Versus just like, okay. I'm gonna separate myself from his stress and also be compassionate because I know what it's like to be stressed, right? My husband it's easier for him to have a feeling of safety in our finances when there's a certain number in the checking account, right? So like I could coach him and be like, you know. That number could be a million or it could be zero and you could have the same thoughts if you if you would just work on your thinking. Or I can just be like, Brynne Erickson (38:03) Right. Sara Payne (38:04) that's fine. So we'll keep the number there. Brynne Erickson (38:08) Yeah. Sara Payne (38:08) Because it's easier for him to not be, to not have thoughts of scarcity when when we have a certain number in the checking account. I'm cool with that. Like, do I have that same number? No, but that's okay. And then I can also see like, I'm so glad that like, He is so, financially conscientious that way. Like it's it's really nice to be married to somebody who doesn't just like spend all the money as soon as he gets it. You know, like if Brynne Erickson (38:34) Right. Yeah. Sara Payne (38:36) we were both like, if we were both the gas, I'd consider myself the gas and he's a break, then like we might actually be in financial trouble. But because Brynne Erickson (38:44) Right. Sara Payne (38:44) he's like, okay, we might want to ease up here and be like, thank Brynne Erickson (38:48) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (38:48) you. And I don't have to take it as a personal insult to like. He thinks I'm not good with money. No, just wants a certain number in the bank account. That's Brynne Erickson (38:56) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (38:57) cool. Brynne Erickson (38:58) Yeah. And I love that that was a conclusion that you guys drew together. Like trying to find a middle ground, but also allowing him to think what he wants to think and you get to think what you want to think, but you still like love and care about each other and you want Sara Payne (39:16) Totally. Brynne Erickson (39:17) to compromise, right? If you can. I think. that that's helpful too, rather just being like, well, you do your thing and you do my thing, which some people choose, and I'm not saying that that's problem. But in my marriage, Sara Payne (39:29) Right. Right. Brynne Erickson (39:31) I'd rather we try to come to some sort of compromise. I think that's the best word I can think of. An understanding. That's a good word. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (39:36) Yeah, or at least understanding, right? Yeah. Totally. Even if you don't see it the way he sees it, can understand why he thinks about it the way that he does. And then and then there's so much more compassion. Brynne Erickson (39:49) Correct. I can totally see Dallin's perspective. And that's why it I Sara Payne (39:54) Yes. Brynne Erickson (39:57) think that's why it hurts so much more because I don't want to add to that layer of stress. Sara Payne (40:05) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (40:06) so for me it's kind of been more of that like allowing him to without judgment, but there's still there's still judgment there that I'm working on that I'm aware of. it's just more wanting to help him feel better about it. And it's like you said, I could coach, I could say the things, I could encourage him Sara Payne (40:25) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (40:26) to do the inner work, but Sara Payne (40:29) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (40:29) that isn't necessarily helpful unless they're wanting that from you, right? Sara Payne (40:33) Yeah. Yes. If they're coming and being like, Can you like can you tell me how you think about money? Because you seem l not stressed and I wanna be like that. Then that's different than like, okay, I could like coach him against his will, or I could just like work on myself being okay with the fact that he's stressed. Like a it's fine. And we're not on the same page. Brynne Erickson (40:54) Yeah. And we're not on the same page. Like again, there it is again. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (40:59) Yeah. And I don't I don't have to take responsibility for his feelings in order to have compassion for them. Like Brynne Erickson (41:05) Yeah. Sara Payne (41:05) I they're different. It's different. You're like, I get it. I get stressed about things too. But I don't but when we when we take responsibility for someone else's feelings, then we get weird and like manipulative and and then we don't show up as ourselves or we try to change them so we can feel better. Brynne Erickson (41:23) Yeah, and that's kind of where I'm at. And it's been Sara Payne (41:25) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (41:26) yeah, sometimes I put more focus on it than others, but for the most part we're we've kind of found a groove of me just doing it and we don't really talk about it. And Sara Payne (41:35) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (41:36) that seems to be working for now, but I'm open for it to change depending on the day. Again, like Sara Payne (41:41) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (41:41) i he's just like I don't wanna I don't wanna set you off in that way, so we're not gonna talk about it. And I'm like, Well, thank Sara Payne (41:47) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (41:48) you, because I don't really want to talk about it either, quite frankly. I do, but I don't. Sara Payne (41:52) Yeah, I think what you don't want is the feelings that come with you talking about it. And those are Brynne Erickson (41:56) Correct. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (41:58) those are flexible. So just like you would have a conversation in your mind, like, okay, when's a good time to talk to my toddler about this or that? Right. You can do that with yourself Brynne Erickson (42:09) Right. Sara Payne (42:10) too. Like, okay, I want I want to want to have this conversation, but I'm Brynne Erickson (42:14) Correct. Sara Payne (42:15) gonna do it when I'm not exhausted, when I'm not Brynne Erickson (42:17) Hm. Sara Payne (42:17) like feeling threatened about the way I spend our money. I'm gonna do it when like things are calm. And so I'm gonna start off so that I'm prepared for whatever feelings come. Brynne Erickson (42:29) Yeah. Yeah, those darn feelings, like they truly Sara Payne (42:33) Mm. Brynne Erickson (42:34) keep us from having the vulnerable conversations that truly create connection, right? And it not just Sara Payne (42:41) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (42:42) in money, but in faith and religion and relationships and politics and all all of the things. Sara Payne (42:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and what's so interesting is we think we're avoiding those feelings by not talking about it, but they're still there. Brynne Erickson (42:57) Mm. Sara Payne (42:58) They're just like hum underneath the surface, you know. Versus like, why don't we just take this out and look at it? And we're gonna do it strategically. We're gonna take it out and look at it when we feel resourced, when we feel like we're safe, when you know, it doesn't have to be like word vomiting everything every time we have any kind of emotion, like I think sometimes we get confused that if we're going to be vulnerable, we have no control over like when or how and we we do. And we can also like we can open the tap and then we can close it too. It can sound like, Brynne Erickson (43:35) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (43:35) okay, I'm feeling heated and flooded and I love you and I love us. Can we take a breather? Can we talk about this Brynne Erickson (43:42) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (43:42) again tomorrow? Can I take a walk around the block? Can we, you know? Like all of those Brynne Erickson (43:45) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (43:45) are strategies that we can implement and use that can strengthen our relationship with one another and frankly with ourselves too. Brynne Erickson (43:57) Yeah, I think that's really wise. Sara Payne (43:59) There's never like a situation where it has to be like win-lose. It can always be win-win. It can be like, this is good for Dallin and this is good for me. This is good for Ryan and this is good for Sarah. Like, let's figure out what that is. Then that's like a fun problem to solve versus who's right, who's wrong? Brynne Erickson (44:20) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (44:21) Who's gonna win this one? Who's gonna lose this one? It's like it can always be win-win. Brynne Erickson (44:27) I love that so much. And that is one of the seven habits of highly effective kids that Sara Payne (44:34) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (44:35) I learned as a teacher. And that was the one that like stuck with me the most. And I use it with my kids the most too. I'm like, come on, we can solve this. How can you get your way and your brother get your way? Get his way. There's a way Sara Payne (44:47) Yes. Brynne Erickson (44:48) to do this. And I believe in that so much. It doesn't have to be one side or the other. And it doesn't always have to be a who. Who's gonna win this argument or get their way? It's coming together and how can we both make this work for both of us? And that's where that word compromise has been helpful. Like, what is most important to me, but what am I willing to maybe let loose on in order for you to have what's most important to you and that we can both win and Yeah, I think that is one of the greatest pieces of advice that you could ever share. And that you're on the same team. Like it's not it's not me against you. Like it we really Sara Payne (45:33) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (45:34) are on the same team here, aren't we? Sara Payne (45:36) Yeah. Then you're solving problems instead of pointing fingers when you just like fundamentally believe that. And when you remind yourself and you forget, wait, sorry, I was fighting against you. And now I'm I'm Brynne Erickson (45:47) Mm. Sara Payne (45:48) I just remembered we're on the same team. So let's figure out the solution to this problem together. And Brynne Erickson (45:55) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (45:57) then it's I believe that that's the only way God knows how to be is win-win. Brynne Erickson (46:04) Mm. Yeah, I do too. Sara Payne (46:05) And when I believe that, then I'm not like, well, yeah, I mean, this bad thing happened to me. God made it happen, but it was so that so and so could get this blessing. Like I just can't, I cannot picture a God that's like, I'm gonna punish you, but don't worry. It's so it's because I love your brother so much. It's like, no, this might feel I understand that this might Brynne Erickson (46:27) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (46:27) feel like a punishment or a trial, but just you wait. Like just you, just trust me. This is going to turn out even better than you imagine and you're gonna learn so much and be so much better off than you, than you would have been if this had never happened. And your brother's gonna Brynne Erickson (46:44) Mm. Sara Payne (46:44) be great too. And when I believe that, then when I'm in the thick of whatever it is, a relationship struggle, a health struggle, whatever, I'm like, yeah, I can't see it right now, but I just know God's win-win. So I wonder how he's gonna fix this one. I wonder how what I'm gonna learn from this one. Brynne Erickson (47:01) And then you step into that mindset of looking for evidence to prove that, right? Which empowers Sara Payne (47:05) Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (47:07) us and allows us to be nourished by light rather than despair and darkness and fear. Like there's so much I believe so much in like energetics. So we like get fueled by the thoughts that we have and what we're looking for. Yeah, I love that win win. I think that is such an easy thing to remember and truly more empowering than depleting. Sara Payne (47:37) Yeah. And then when you when like you said, when you look for it, when you're like, okay, there's a win-win here. I have no idea what it is. It doesn't seem possible, but I know I believe that it is. So let's like let's work together to figure it out. our brains want to solve problems. And so we can focus on like what's wrong with that partner. Brynne Erickson (47:55) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (47:56) And that's one problem that like we'll spin endlessly in our minds, or we can Brynne Erickson (47:59) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (48:00) work on like, okay, we both want to have more money for retirement. I wonder what that could be. I think it's this way and he thinks it's that way. I wonder like what solution is win-win that we can both feel good about. Brynne Erickson (48:11) Mm-hmm. And I can't wait for it to show up. I help me to recognize it. Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (48:13) Yeah. And then you're look like you said, then you're looking yes. Like such a that's such a beautiful prayer, right? Like help me to recognize it. Or even like like I'm thinking of your particular marriage and the the vulnerable things that you shared, like help me to recognize when Dallin is like showing me that he trusts me with our money. Like I wonder what would you see. Brynne Erickson (48:33) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (48:34) If you looked for that, you know. Brynne Erickson (48:36) Yeah. So good. well before we close, man, we've talked about all the things, all the things I wanted to talk about. But are there any last bits of advice or things that people would benefit from knowing in addition to what we've already shared? Sara Payne (48:56) I think that being on the same team is really important. I think seeing your partner as the highest version of themselves like makes all the difference when you like see them. And what I mean by that is like it's it's basically a fancy way of saying like see the very best in them as much as you can all the time. So when when they're having a bad day or getting or frustrated or whatever, you're just like, yeah, they're amazing. Look for the best in them and you will find it. and and then when resentment does show up, because it's going to show up, particularly in our marriages, to use it as a window instead of like something to be ashamed of. Resentment is kind of like one of those emotions that we're like embarrassed about, like like envy or jealousy, you know, like I don't want people, Brynne Erickson (49:49) Mm-hmm. Sara Payne (49:49) no, I'm resentful. But instead, if we can be like, Whoa, this resentment is showing me something that I want that I don't think I can have. Let me figure out what that is. and then I can focus on the results, which is how can I get what I want and how can I and and like be on the same team as my partner versus that silent like superiority that we feel when we're just like quietly resentful and we think nobody can nobody can Brynne Erickson (50:20) Yeah. Sara Payne (50:20) sense it in us, you know? But we're pretty Brynne Erickson (50:22) Yeah. Sara Payne (50:23) good. We're pretty good at sensing it in our partners, you know? And so Brynne Erickson (50:27) Yes. Sara Payne (50:28) they can probably sense it in us. So use it as a window instead of something to be embarrassed about. And that my favorite way to do that is to ask myself a question. What am I wanting or needing that I don't like that I'm afraid to ask for? I don't think I can have and go Brynne Erickson (50:43) Mm. Sara Payne (50:43) from there. That's a lot more vulnerable question than just like he doesn't get it. Like he think, you know, he thinks he had our day. Brynne Erickson (50:53) Okay. Such wise advice. Thank you so much, Sara. This is gonna help so many people. we're all part we all have relationships in varying degrees. And I have no doubt that this'll help us be more of who we wanna be and allowing others to be who they wanna be and loving ourselves and them in the process. So thank you so much for your time. Sara Payne (51:16) You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. Brynne Erickson (51:19) Is there any way that we can find you if anyone wants to work with you or listen to your podcast or your resources? Where can we find you? Sara Payne (51:27) I have a podcast called Rock Solid Relationships. So they can find me there. And then I have a book called It Just Takes One. And I can find that on Amazon. And and I'm on social media too at Sara Payne Coaching. So any of those three areas. Brynne Erickson (51:42) Okay, excellent. And I'll put those in the show links. Thanks again.