Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / From Prisoner to Prison Owner: Kerwin Pittman’s Blueprint for Second Chances

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From Prisoner to Prison Owner: Kerwin Pittman’s Blueprint for Second Chances · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
Never give up on yourself. Never count yourself, never
0:02
count yourself out. Never think you're not good
0:06
enough. Never think you don't belong in
0:08
these spaces because you do belong.
0:11
And just because you made a mistake or a bad decision, it
0:14
does not amount to your life, your total life sum.
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It is opportunity for redemption.
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And it is an opportunity for second chances, third chances,
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fourth chances, six chances. How many chances?
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As long as you come to the realization one day that I'm
0:28
going to get it right and actually start to get it right
0:31
and that you are enough. What happens when your worst
0:34
fear becomes your reality? Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome
0:37
to the Nightmare Success In and Out podcast where we explore how
0:40
to overcome your fears and nightmares to set yourself free.
0:44
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:46
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:51
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
0:55
humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
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something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
1:01
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back
1:06
Nightmare success and listeners, this is where you come.
1:09
What happens when your worst fear becomes reality?
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How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free and
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folks, don't forget to follow subscribe like this thing out
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share it up comment. It really helps the show and I
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really, really appreciate that. So and I want to say, hey, it's
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good to be back. I was I was out for a week went
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on vacation with my wife. It's great to be back in the
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nightmare success share share here listening to great stories,
1:35
comeback stories and got a good one today.
1:38
We're talking to Kerwin Pittman. And I was just telling him I, I
1:44
was going through LinkedIn and I, I ran across this thing and
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it said that he owned a prison, a decommissioned prison.
1:54
And I thought, wait a minute, wait a minute, what is this?
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Well, first of all, he's the founder and executive director
2:00
of Recidivism reduction Educational program Services.
2:04
And obviously he's a formerly incarcerated guy who he's been
2:08
out since 2018. And man, he has hit the ground
2:11
running since he's been out. He's been on all kinds of
2:14
boards, he's been in legislation, he's been all kinds
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of stuff. But what what really caught my
2:18
attention though, is he is proud to be recognized as the first
2:24
formerly incarcerated person in the United States history to
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purchase a decommissioned prison, transform into space
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from once defined by confinement into recidivism reduction campus
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focused on workplace development, behavioral health
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access, education and second chance opportunities.
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Wow. And I just told him, I said,
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wouldn't it be great if we just took all the prisons, the
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decommission and turn them all into second chance universities?
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Wouldn't that be awesome? I cannot wait to jump into all
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this. He's he's known as a change
2:55
maker. He's a he's nationally
2:57
recognized as recidivism reduction expert.
3:01
His mission simple transform systems expand second chances
3:06
and prove that redemption can become infrastructure.
3:10
I love it. Can't wait to jump into it.
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story. Herwin, how are you?
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I'm good. I I I feel good.
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Well, that's great, 'cause I, I really want to talk about all
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this stuff that you're doing and I want to get into your, you
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know, your, your whole story was interesting.
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And I take us back before all this nightmare happened to you,
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going to prison and, and then getting into the whole second
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chance recidivism stuffed go. Let's go back to what was Kerwin
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doing as a kid, Mom, dad, where you grew up?
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OK, perfect. So Kerwin Pittman grew up
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military baby. So both of my parents was in the
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Air Force. I was actually born in Lundstu,
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Germany, was in Germany for three years.
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At the age of three, we came back to the States.
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I moved to the eastern part of North Carolina, which is more of
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the rural part of North Carolina.
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I stayed there until about the age of 11 and then an actual
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flood came. Whole house flooded underwater.
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We had to get evacuated out like all of the things of a major
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flood. Then we moved to Raleigh, NC,
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which is more of the city of North Carolina where the other
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half of my family stayed. And so I grew up in a what you
5:57
now what they call now social houses.
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But what we knew back in the day is liquor house.
6:01
So I actually was a beer runner growing up and in my
6:04
grandmother's liquor house and entertainment for those who kind
6:07
of indulge a little too much. We would do Steve Urkel dances
6:10
different things and they would give us money.
6:12
So it was kind of the entertainment inside this social
6:14
house. So that was.
6:16
Wait a minute. So.
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So you're running liquor out of your grandmother's house, right?
6:24
Is what you said. I was a beer runner.
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You were a beer runner and you also entertained the people that
6:31
you were delivering to. Exactly.
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Exactly. Me and my brother would do would
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do entertainment. So that was kind of the the
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thing we grew up in. It was a party, party atmosphere
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all the time. And on the flip side of that,
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though, it was a impoverished neighborhood, right?
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And So what that looks like is every night my uncle would would
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scream out, hit the floor when we heard gunshots.
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And so we have to jump on the floor.
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So my memories was was fond of of my uncle voice screaming hit
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the floor. We have to jump on the floor
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every night, regardless of what we was doing and whatever moment
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we could be about to get in the bathtub.
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We have to jump on the floor to make sure you didn't get shot.
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Kerwin, let's talk about that because as a kid, most kids, the
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majority of kids don't have that experience where they're
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dropping to the floor because there could be a bullet coming
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through the house. Did that seem scary to you, or
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did it just seem like that was just part of your life that you
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were living and that's what everybody was experiencing?
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It seemed like it was part of my life that I was living.
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And you know, as an adult looking back now, I can see kind
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of it wasn't normal, right? And so going to even into the
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playgrounds, we would see Baggies, vials, needles, like
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all shell casings, bullets. We would see all of the things,
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right? And so at the playground on the
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swing, all of the things. And we would just continue to
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swing and just play on the, on the small playground that we
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that we did have. And so looking back now, I
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realized that it wasn't normal. My first interaction with law
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enforcement is that individual older gentleman kind of in our
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neighborhood would be hustling in the park.
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And so when the police would come automatically, they would
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take off running and we would look as little kids.
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And a couple times the police didn't catch these individuals
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and they would give us all the kids who was out there kind of a
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swift kick. And so that was kind of my first
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interaction with with law enforcement even then and kind
8:16
of just being in that world, that environment, that
8:18
experience. Would they question you?
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The kids. They would they would ask us
8:25
questions who they were. And so a lot of the times this
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is where some of the kicks will come because then we would
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automatically try to take off running like we've seen the
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older people do. I was just say we didn't know.
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And so we knew not to say nothing and don't talk to them
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at all. Yeah, yeah.
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Who's just trying to play with kids?
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Well, let's let's progress a little bit.
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So like you get older, you're getting your teens and and
8:46
school. And how did all that progress
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for you? So older and my teens got in
8:51
school, excelled in school, but didn't take school too serious
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because a lot of my role models were though who those who was
8:57
indulging in criminality, right? And so that would be those who
9:01
were the hustlers, those who were the kind of the person that
9:05
ran the, the block, so to speak. And so these were the
9:08
individuals that I gravitated towards and were kind of my
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heroes that I looked up to. And so quite naturally I've
9:14
been, I eventually ended up indulging in the things that
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they was indulging at the moment.
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And so even quite interesting as a young, as a young gentleman,
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right about the age of 13, I met Shirley Caesar.
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So the gospel singer Shirley Caesar Church is actually in the
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same neighborhood that I actually grew up in.
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And so met Shirley Caesar while I was outside of her church,
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literally down the street, a little bit young age, selling
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drugs. And so I'll never forget her
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Jaguar pulled up. And of course everybody
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approached the Jaguar, but I stood back and it was hollering
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Shirley Caesar. Shirley Caesar.
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I'm like, who is Shirley Caesar? Like I didn't even, I didn't
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even know. And so all of them moved out the
9:55
way and she said, young man, come here.
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And she was talking to me. And so I walked away.
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I said, yes, ma'am, I never forget.
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She had a mink coat on. She said, this is my church
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who's standing in front of. So I was like, OK, she about to
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call the police something she said, but I want to invite you
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into this church. She said, like whenever you get
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an opportunity, please come by and stop by in this church.
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And so full circle moment years later as me as as kind of the
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where I'm at now, Shirley Caesar reached out to me and did,
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unbeknownst to her that I was that young boy and asked me to
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advocate for one of her nephews who had who was locked up in
10:24
prison in Virginia. And I never told her that I was
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the young man that she invited in church.
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But it was just a full circle moment.
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So it was things like that that happened to me in my childhood.
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Yeah, yeah. So as you were talking to me
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before we got on the interview, you were, you were saying that
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because of where you were and, and the, you know, the people
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that you looked up to in the neighborhood, you, you got into
10:50
the gang related activities in world.
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Were you, did you go all the way in or were you kind of, or were
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you living kind of two lives? How did that work for you as, as
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being a teenager, being in that environment, getting into a
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dangerous situation? What?
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How did you navigate that? So as a teenager, I went all the
11:17
way in. Kirwin Pittman is kind of the
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guy, if he's going to do something, he's going to go all
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the way in. And so I think that's part of
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the part of the secret to my, to my salsa success of being on
11:25
this side of things is I go hard at, at, at re entry and
11:28
recidivism reduction. And so when I was particularly
11:31
in the underworld, I went hard in the underworld.
11:33
And so indulging in gangs and gangs activities, selling drugs,
11:36
different things of that nature, It's kind of what I what I
11:39
indulged in. And so one may be thinking,
11:41
well, where was your parents at? So my mother was a disabled
11:44
veteran and my father had succumb to the drug epidemic.
11:47
And so my father was around, but you know, he has succumb to the
11:50
drug epidemic. And so one of the, one of the
11:53
role models that that I had was kind of like in this, in this
11:56
space, right? And so of course, you know,
11:58
quite naturally gravitated towards the street, went
12:01
definitely hard in the streets. Learned early on that
12:05
particularly in my neighborhood, those who was able to to kind of
12:10
perpetrate violence was the ones that was respected the most.
12:12
But also learned it from some of my mentors.
12:15
So I was young out there with a bunch of older guys and really
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out there and, and, and really just soaking it up and paying
12:22
attention and seeing what was going on and really gravitated
12:25
towards that street life. Now, one reason now that I
12:28
advocate for a young opportunity youth to have mentorship is
12:32
because I honestly believe if I had productive mentors in my
12:35
life at the time, I definitely potentially a high probability
12:39
would have took a different direction in life.
12:42
But you know, everything happened for a reason.
12:45
Yeah, well, let's go into that. Tell me about the night the
12:49
nightmare landed on or the day the nightmare landed on you and
12:52
and how you walked through it. Yeah, so essentially being in a
13:00
gang, we got into it with rival neighborhoods.
13:03
And so essentially what happened was a fight turned into a
13:07
shooting. And this shooting ended up
13:09
landed me inside of the carstal system.
13:11
And so though I never even fired a shot myself, the individuals I
13:15
was with kind of fired a shot and that landed me inside of the
13:18
the carstal system. And the way I saw it and the way
13:20
I looked at it was, yeah, I might didn't shoot a shot, but
13:24
it was just a lot of the things that I had got away with my past
13:27
really atonement catching up for me and, and kind of the charting
13:30
of my path. And I'm, I've always been a
13:35
visionary, right? So I could see things before it
13:37
happened. I and I don't, you know, I, I,
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it's kind of like those that's so Raven moments where she have
13:42
those parts where she's standing off in space and can see moments
13:45
happen like in the near future. And so I seen myself going to
13:48
prison at the age of 9, right? I didn't know what it was at the
13:52
time, but I saw it. And so it was just me honestly
13:54
falling into the footsteps that Essential I believe was already
13:57
laid out for me. So Kerwin, did you when this
14:02
happened and they I'm sure they rounded everybody up and what
14:09
were you given a plea or were you did you choose to go to, to
14:13
trial? No, so I, I play it out and so
14:16
going to trial wasn't, wasn't an option.
14:19
And so we, we play it out And so like it was, it was a bunch of
14:22
us. And so we majority of us all
14:24
play it out. And so it didn't make sense to
14:27
go to trial because the way it was framed.
14:30
And now looking back now, it was a political year.
14:32
So I started to really learn about after I grew older on the
14:35
political seasons, climates and different things of that nature.
14:38
So this was a year where gangs was really prevalent in the city
14:41
of Raleigh or North Carolina. It was starting to be prevalent.
14:43
And so it was a political year. It was kind of like these
14:46
examples being made as it related to these different
14:48
things. So definitely wanted to to to
14:51
play out. So when all this happens around
14:55
you, your family and everyone else is is it a how's?
15:00
How does this all? How do they react to you?
15:04
Being my family was. Desperate situation.
15:07
My family was sad. So even though, so I have a
15:11
large family on both sides, my mother and my father.
15:13
So my mother's side particularly, you know, stayed
15:15
up in Raleigh where, where all of the things happened.
15:18
And so they were sad. So we're the family that kind of
15:21
cooked out every weekend, that kind of went to each other's
15:23
house throughout the week, played together like all of the
15:26
sorts. And so we were close knit
15:27
family. So they, they was, they was,
15:29
they were sad. And so especially my immediate
15:31
family, right? So my mother who was a disabled
15:33
veteran who I would help, my other brother who was in college
15:36
at the time, my father who was still in the household, my
15:39
grandmother who was aging, like I would help all of my family
15:43
members out in in ways regardless if I was in the
15:46
street lighter the street life or not, I always knew that my
15:49
family came first. And I meant to ask you, Kerwin,
15:52
did you have siblings and this? I did so I have.
15:57
I have followed into. That order.
15:58
I'm the baby, so I'm the baby in the pecking order.
16:02
So I'm the I'm the last man on the totem pole.
16:03
So I have one brother, my Irish twin.
16:07
He's he's 10 months older than me.
16:10
No, Excuse me, he's 11. Mom has a my mom has a brother
16:12
like that, my uncle. We're ten months apart.
16:16
Yeah, so and then I have an older brother who is who's about
16:20
11 years older than me, but he didn't stay in the household
16:23
with me and my other brother. OK.
16:26
So what's that when it comes down to the plea deal?
16:30
At what? What is the time you're looking
16:31
at? So the time I was looking at was
16:34
11 1/2 to 14 and a half. And so 11 1/2 was what you call
16:39
you will reach that sentence when you did good time, meaning
16:43
like if you stayed out of trouble, stayed out of the way,
16:45
and if you just, you know, chose to act up your whole big, your
16:48
whole incarceration, you will Max out at 14 1/2 years.
16:51
And so towards the beginning of my sentence, I did wait.
16:56
I did time when Kirby wanted to do time.
16:58
And if I didn't want to go to school, I wasn't going to
17:00
school. If I didn't want to take that
17:01
job in the, in the child hall wiping tables, I didn't take the
17:04
job and I just took the consequences that, that came
17:06
with it. And so eventually they just let
17:09
me be. And so and so towards the end of
17:12
my my sentence, I ended up starting to get on good time and
17:15
so was able to make that 11 1/2 year threshold, but but barely.
17:19
Yeah, well, and I want to talk a little bit about all that
17:22
because first of all, going into an adult prison and I don't know
17:29
what the security level was. I'm I'm probably was high
17:33
considering what they charged you with at 19 years old.
17:37
What was your mindset walking in there?
17:39
What were you, I mean, you're not going to tell anybody going
17:43
in, but were you afraid? Were you scared to to walk in
17:46
those gates at that age with no one that you're really walking
17:49
into? You know, you're a young man
17:51
walking into a man's world. Yeah, Yeah, definitely.
17:54
So at a young age in North Carolina, they have youth
17:56
prisons, right. And so from the age of 18 to
17:59
like 2021, they send you to the youth prison in the I process at
18:03
medium custody and then automatically went to maximum
18:06
custody because of my gang affiliation and because of the
18:10
the time that I have received. And so going into the the youth
18:14
facility, the maximum facility, when I went in, it was kind of
18:18
like I wasn't fearful, but it was kind of unknown, right?
18:22
And so I had done, you know, stints in jail before.
18:25
So I was kind of used to the procedure, right, the
18:27
institutional wise procedure. But when I went in
18:30
automatically, I remember walking into a block and as soon
18:33
as I walked into the block and the block was locked down is
18:35
about 46 cells upstairs and downstairs.
18:40
And so somebody calling out my name as soon as I walked in,
18:42
Kerwin. Kerwin.
18:43
I'm thinking like, who in the world is there?
18:45
Somebody here knows me. And so it just so happened to be
18:48
my best friend who stayed across the street from me, who I later
18:52
learned when they popped the doors and he came to my cell, he
18:54
was like, man, what you can do? So it was it was from then on,
18:57
it was like I knew everybody or it was somebody I knew.
18:59
And so it was kind of like my reputation proceeded me from the
19:02
streets to end there. And it was like, OK, yeah, don't
19:04
mess with him. Yeah.
19:06
He like you don't want to. And so that's kind of how it
19:08
was. But when I went to the adult
19:10
spread a year later, it was a different story, right?
19:13
And the reason I said it is because as a youth going on to
19:15
the adult spread and I was about 125 lbs, about 5/8, right?
19:20
So I was, I was short and skinny compared to these grown men who
19:24
was big. And so then I was like, OK,
19:27
Kerwin, my motto was I never came inside a prison with any
19:30
scars, anything of that nature. And I wasn't going to leave out
19:33
like that, right? And so, but for me going in with
19:37
that mindset as a youth, I'm pretty sure people can see I was
19:41
prepared and was ready for anything.
19:42
But when I got to the adult spread, it wasn't what I
19:45
expected. It was some older guys who was
19:48
really humble, who at dead time and they saw youth coming in and
19:52
they didn't want to prey on the youth.
19:54
They instead they wanted to set the youth on a better path and
19:57
future. And so these are the individuals
19:58
I gravitated towards. They would just give me game.
20:00
They would pour into me. They would say, bro, you got,
20:03
you got another shot, you got another chance.
20:04
I got a life sentence. Like with parole, like without
20:07
parole, I remember meeting one guy and his name was 99.
20:11
And so one day after, after we had been, after we've been, you
20:14
know, being being friends about a one or two and kind of working
20:16
out on, I said why they call you 99?
20:19
He said, because the system gave me 99 years.
20:21
So they called me 99. And so I, I never forgot it.
20:24
I never forgot. And he would always tell me like
20:27
he would always so on, on the yard.
20:29
They call me mighty. So he would say mighty make the
20:32
main thing the main thing when you go home, make sure you
20:35
always making the main thing the main thing.
20:37
And so I always gravitated towards the older people who was
20:40
willing to pour into the younger generation because when I went
20:43
inside institution, I I wasn't like at that point in my life, I
20:45
wasn't on obese and so I wasn't in there trying to fight nothing
20:48
of that nature. I started to really just try to
20:50
do my time and figure it out. Well, I know that you got moved
20:54
around a lot and you surprised me how much you got moved around
20:57
a lot. And you also told me you spent
21:01
some real time and solitary confinement.
21:03
I want to get into all that. So take a break here because I
21:07
want to find out how you survived that.
21:09
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22:23
OK, so Kerwin, you get you're finding mentors.
22:29
You know, these guys are saying, hey, I want to help out these
22:32
young guys that want to listen. How is it that you get moved
22:36
around so much? I mean, you're in a state
22:38
prison. First of all, prisoners don't
22:40
like to move around. It's, you know, it's just stuff
22:43
and you don't know where you're going and they don't tell you
22:45
where you're going. And, you know, so walk us
22:48
through that. How did all that happen for you,
22:49
and how did you survive all that?
22:52
Yeah. So I went to over throughout the
22:53
course of my incarceration, over 10 different or 10 was moved,
22:57
shipped 10 times. Some institutions I went to
22:59
multiple times. I went to every custody level
23:03
medium, minimum, minimum, medium and maximum twice.
23:08
So I got busted back from every custody level twice.
23:12
And so my journey was 1A tumultuous 1.
23:16
And so in the beginning, as a youth, I started out doing a lot
23:19
of things right. And so I would get shipped out,
23:21
it would ship me off the camp because I had a lot of
23:23
influence. And so towards the middle of my
23:25
incarceration, I really began to chill out and really begin to
23:28
focus on self. But because of my reputation
23:30
from the past, they will put me on their investigation a good
23:33
portion of the time. And so a good portion of the
23:36
time after I did that year, 365 days in solitary confinement was
23:40
more was more investigation on periods.
23:44
And so I, I will be on investigation for for thirty,
23:46
6090 days sometimes, sometimes 120 days and then some.
23:51
And then they would let me back out on the yard or they would
23:53
ship me because they felt like I had something to do with
23:55
something, but they couldn't prove it because I honestly
23:57
didn't have nothing to do with it.
23:58
And I was really chilling out trying to really focus on self.
24:01
And so for me, the 365 days I did in the hole and let's talk.
24:08
About that because a lot of people those people listening
24:10
down in the Cayman Islands, they don't even know what we're
24:12
talking about with the hole, you know, or it's called a shoe
24:15
special housing it it it is it is a place you don't want to go
24:19
it's prison within prison confinement and and a lot of
24:22
times you know it can be handled differently, but most of the
24:25
time you're on you're you're you're in a cell by yourself.
24:29
Sometimes you have someone with you, but you're confined up to
24:33
23, sometimes 24 hours a day and, and, and everything is
24:37
restricted. And how did you for a whole year
24:43
and you didn't know you were going to be in there for a year?
24:47
How do you tackle that? How do you eat that elephant
24:50
when you're in a confined space like that, not knowing what the
24:53
next thing is? It was, I have mixed feelings
24:58
about it, right, because we're talking about a room the size of
25:00
a, a parking space, right, that I was in by myself, 23 and one
25:04
had to come out in full restraint, had to take a shower
25:07
shackled from my feet to my waist to my, to my hands.
25:10
And, and you can't essentially wash with your handcuffed to
25:14
your waist, right? And so I would have to just sit
25:16
in there and let the water run down on me.
25:19
And so being in that space, I called, it was a place where I
25:22
kind of lost and found myself. And the reason I say that
25:25
because after about six or seven months, I was able to talk to a
25:28
unit manager and received a phone call, was able to, to get
25:32
a phone call to my loved ones by way of the unit manager.
25:36
I don't know what I said that day.
25:37
I don't know. I know it shouldn't have
25:38
happened, but it happened because it was supposed to
25:40
happen. And they gave me the phone call.
25:42
And so they put me in full restraints and support.
25:44
So for those who are listening to full restraints means I am
25:47
shackled at both of my both of my ankles.
25:49
I have chains going up to my waist.
25:51
Both of my hands are handcuffed together, shackled inside of a
25:55
box, shackled with the waist, a chain around my waist with an
25:58
actual physical lock on that box, right.
26:01
And so you have to do what's called a shuffle when you move
26:03
because you got chains on your feet.
26:05
And so as I shuffled to the office, this is when cell phones
26:09
wasn't a thing called called the house phone and luckily my
26:12
mother was there. I talked to my mother, she
26:15
picked up, she started crying and me unless she heard my
26:17
voice. And so my grandmother was there.
26:20
I said great. She started crying.
26:21
I said I got a 2 for one. I called both of them.
26:23
And so my brother was there, talked to him as well.
26:25
And so I'm after about 15 minutes, they rushed me off the
26:27
phone and as I shuffled back to my cell, no lie, they begin to
26:31
take the shackles off of me. Right as they begin to put me
26:34
back in my cell, it was like shackles begin to come off of my
26:36
mind and I really realized that I was doing, yes, I was doing
26:40
time, but the people that love me the most was doing time with
26:43
me and I was hurting them. So I may do something to
26:46
somebody and it feel good for the moment.
26:48
I feel like I got retribution or got back or get back.
26:50
But ultimately I was hurting the people that love me the most
26:52
that was bidding with me. And so it was at that point I
26:55
really began to look at my life and say, Kirwin, like you really
26:58
can't come out the same person. You went in like you came in a
27:00
child, a man child, right? He was 1819 years old.
27:04
You're going to be 3031 when you go home, you really have to look
27:07
how you want your life to be. And so I it was at that moment.
27:10
I honestly rent see serving time and really begin to let the time
27:13
serve me. I like to say so I begin to
27:15
treat my incarceration like college.
27:17
So my last couple of months in the whole I just read, I studied
27:20
psychology, theology, history. I became a love of history when
27:24
Ivan Van started with John Henry Clark.
27:26
Like all of the things I studied anything I can get my hands on
27:31
so I treated so I for two hours a day I will study psychology.
27:33
For two hours a day I will study the Art of War 33 strategies for
27:37
two hours a day I will study history for another.
27:39
For another hour a day I will work out or I will work out for
27:41
two hours and then I will read a western or western or something
27:44
for entertainment I will write. I started forming in my mind a
27:47
non profit in my mind if I was going to help other people while
27:50
inside the whole, which eventually came into fruition.
27:53
So it was all of those things that I began to do.
27:57
And so when they finally let me out the whole a year later, I
28:00
wasn't the same person. So well, where some of my, you
28:02
know, some of my friends wanted to talk about Nicki Minaj on the
28:05
BT award to somebody. I wanted to talk about Socrates
28:09
and philosophy and different things.
28:10
So, so the, the people who I hung around would begin to shift
28:14
right and so begin to shift to more to those who thought of,
28:17
you know, who was of higher learning.
28:19
And so because I had these robust conversations and, and
28:21
different visions and different things of that nature.
28:25
How long into this sentence was it that that happened?
28:31
That happened after about five years, maybe.
28:35
So you're about halfway through. How about four or five years?
28:39
So then the other half of your sentence was you educating
28:43
yourself and planning and obviously hanging out with other
28:47
people. Then where you went in as a 19
28:50
year old and and you know, were more or less just taking
28:53
yourself from the streets into the prison.
28:55
Now you're now you're looking to change.
28:57
What do you think it was with that phone call that brought all
29:02
that around for you? It was like a light switch,
29:04
honestly, it was like a light. It was like something clicked
29:08
within me when I, when I heard, because I replayed being in
29:12
solitary confinement, You have nothing but your thoughts,
29:15
right? And so I heard my mother voice
29:17
crying in my head and my grandmother's voice crying in my
29:21
head. And so every time I went back
29:22
into that cell and, and a mere thought of me indulging in crazy
29:27
things, right? Their voices of crying would go
29:30
inside my head. And so I, I really realized that
29:32
I had to change not only for me, but for my family, like it was
29:35
other people who was the depending on, on my success or
29:38
failure when I came home and it was like a light switch happened
29:41
honestly. So I the best way I can say is
29:42
when they was taking the shackles off of me to go back in
29:45
that sale, it was like shackles literally was literally was
29:48
falling off of my mind and I began to view the world in a
29:50
different space and light. So you talked about the
29:54
nonprofit you started thinking about, Is it what you envisioned
30:00
as, as as you had the vision for it?
30:02
There is what you're doing now, kind of what you thought about
30:07
while you were in. It it has grown beyond my
30:10
wildest imagination. Now the basis of it is the same
30:13
helping people. But what it has evolved into
30:16
today, I never would have foresaw that it would be this
30:21
massive and help thousands of people like we've been able to
30:24
help. Yeah.
30:26
So you let's talk about, because when you start thinking, OK, I'm
30:30
getting close to the door, I'm going to be out.
30:33
What, what were you thinking? Like what, what?
30:37
Because you know, 11 1/2 years is a good amount of time.
30:40
You know, that's you went from, like you said, for a 19 year old
30:42
kid, you're going to be in your early 30s.
30:46
What were what were your thoughts?
30:49
So my thoughts. Getting out.
30:51
Of getting out innately, I, I was nervous.
30:53
And so of course, anybody who done a substantial amount of
30:55
time anytime because it's the unexpected you inside a prison,
30:58
it is routine. You become so used to the
31:00
routine and that when that routine is interrupted, you're
31:04
kind of nervous about what, what it will look like, especially
31:07
coming home and getting out. And so I was a little nervous,
31:10
but somehow deep inside me, I knew that I would be doing
31:14
something great and I didn't know exactly what.
31:16
And so I remember a day or two before I came home, the chaplain
31:19
said Kerwin asked me the magic question.
31:21
Kerwin, what you going to do when you get out?
31:24
I said, I said I'm gonna be an advocate.
31:26
I'm gonna be an activist, right? I said I'm gonna help people.
31:28
And he looked at me as if a parent looks at a small child
31:31
and they when you ask that child what you gonna be when you grow
31:33
up, and that child said, I'm gonna be an astronaut, right?
31:36
It's like the likelihood of you being an astronaut and being
31:38
successful slimming up. But your parents ain't gonna
31:39
tell you that. So he was like, well, what's
31:41
your Plan B? And I, I said, it ain't no Plan
31:44
B. That's what I'm gonna do.
31:45
And he was like, okay, okay. And so lo and behold, I, I
31:48
innately knew that when I was going to come home, like my path
31:51
was going to be doing this and I would not be deterred from it.
31:54
And so within the first week of me coming home, I met some
31:57
people who was advocating in the criminal justice space the next
32:00
week. How did you meet, how did you
32:03
meet them, Kerwin? Because that that sounds like a
32:05
big deal that you had ran into some people that were in that
32:07
way. So I, I was actually friends
32:10
with a guy and he was dating one of the ladies at the time who,
32:15
who actually had an organization that was trying to help people
32:19
in Raleigh, right? And that was advocating against
32:22
issues. And so unbeknownst to me that
32:25
week, I came home, she held a meeting and it kept inviting me
32:28
too. And so one day I was like, OK,
32:29
I'm gonna go to your meeting. So when I went to our meeting, I
32:31
met a group of people of all women who wanted to get into the
32:35
same thing I was doing. And so this became kind of my
32:37
core team, a good portion of them, right?
32:40
And so this became the core team.
32:42
A week later, I I was thrusting in front of a camera doing a
32:45
press conference about a law enforcement issues that had
32:48
happened in Raleigh. Wow.
32:51
So this, this, this, this show goes into over 1200 prisons.
32:56
I, I, I, this kind of story is, is fantastic for people to
33:01
listen to because for, for a lot of people inside prison, there's
33:04
a lot of people that are telling them, no, nothing can happen for
33:07
you. You're going to come right back
33:08
here. It's going to be tougher than
33:10
you think and you won't be able to make it.
33:14
How did you do it? How did you do it?
33:16
Kerwin, how did you make it happen?
33:18
I made the main thing, the main thing coming home, I knew that
33:22
it was going to be a lot of temptations.
33:24
And so when I came home, my family threw this massive party
33:26
for me at the beach house or whatever, right?
33:28
And so it, it was at that moment, I chose not to indulge
33:32
in any substance, right? And so since me being home, I
33:34
haven't took one sip or anything or, or one puff of anything
33:37
because I knew that I got an addictive personality, right?
33:40
And so if I get into it, I'm gonna get into it.
33:42
And so knowing that knowing whatever my triggers is going to
33:45
be, I stay away from what I perceive to be potentially
33:48
downfalls or hindrance from me receiving, perceiving my
33:51
mission. And I'm not saying that those
33:53
who indulge can't do great things, but you have to be
33:56
disciplined with what you're doing.
33:58
You have to make the main thing the main thing.
34:00
And you have to set your eye on whatever the prize is in your
34:03
life that you're trying to obtain.
34:04
And don't take no for an answer. Know that you are great.
34:07
Know that you can't achieve great things.
34:09
And know that just because you have made a mistake or a bad
34:11
decision, that is not the total like sum of your life and who
34:14
you are as a person. Change is possible and you got
34:17
even a greater story for redemption because you've been
34:19
to the greatest depths and it's the reason why you should reach
34:22
the highest heights. And I honestly believe that
34:24
whole lot of them. So putting together a non
34:27
profit, obviously you met some people, you'd studied this.
34:31
So it wasn't like this was like, Oh my gosh, how do you do this?
34:35
So you went through the process of the nonprofit.
34:38
How did it start working for you, Kerwin?
34:40
As far as you start doing a lot of things that are impacting the
34:47
community, how did you find the people to work with to make this
34:53
happen? As fate would have it, a lot of
34:56
the pieces was already around me.
34:58
I just had to wake up and realize and and it'd be the same
35:01
for a lot of people, right? We know a lot of people who are
35:03
doing a lot of different things. They might got a skill set here
35:05
and there. And so for me, when I came home
35:08
with the nonprofit and started advocating in that particular
35:11
realm and spirit things, I realized that a lot of people
35:14
would call me who were incarcerated, who I made friends
35:16
with and they would say, Kirwan, how you doing it, how you got
35:19
this going on? And so I eventually started a
35:20
road map on how to help these individuals kind of obtain this.
35:23
Well, I learned a lot of stuff, learnt a lot of policy stuff,
35:25
just trying to help them navigate the different spaces
35:28
and terrain of re entering and coming back into society and
35:31
begin to honestly connect the dots.
35:33
And so that's kind of how I got involved in this, did a lot of
35:35
policy change, a lot of advocacy organizing.
35:38
So, and here I here I am little Kirwan Pittman, have been out
35:41
two 2-3 years and kind of have thousands of people following
35:44
behind me. And so from that point, the
35:47
governor asked me, met with the governor of my state at the
35:50
time, Roy Cooper. He then asked me to be a part of
35:52
this Commission or task force to help advise different agencies
35:55
on how to do recidivism. Excuse me on how to do criminal
35:58
justice reform practices policy change.
36:01
I became a lobbyist off of that started in lap.
36:03
I started in lobbying for common sense criminal justice reform,
36:08
actually got some bills passed, spoken bill signings.
36:11
So whatever I did and chose to partake.
36:13
And I just went extra hard in and I didn't take no for an
36:15
answer. And I looked at the resources
36:17
and pieces beside me, around me and connected those dots.
36:21
And so a lot of times people don't or they miss kind of the
36:24
resources that's right in their face, right?
36:26
Well, the other thing I love, the thing I love about your
36:29
story is, is that a lot of times people, when they serve time,
36:34
you know, we all have a scarlet letter on we, we have a life
36:37
sentence that we have to figure out how to live it in the
36:39
community because you got to own your store.
36:43
You got to figure out how to live it going forward.
36:46
But what I, what I really like about your, how you advocated
36:52
for yourself was is that you didn't think that you didn't
36:54
belong. You didn't have the imposter
36:57
syndrome you were in. You were in meetings and
37:01
conversations with people and they were listening to you,
37:03
whether it be the governor or legislators or whatever it was.
37:08
It wasn't like you didn't think you were supposed to be there.
37:10
It was because of your experience, of what you've been
37:12
through is the reason why you were there, the reason why you
37:15
were supposed to be there. And that's where real change
37:18
happens. Definitely, definitely no I so,
37:21
but I actually did have imposter syndrome in the beginning,
37:23
right? Well, everybody does.
37:25
Everybody does. It's like riding a bike, right?
37:27
So when you go in those spaces, it's like, do I belong here?
37:30
And so when I had those moments, I would self talk self like you
37:34
belong here. Like look at the depth you came
37:36
from. And you're sitting here beside
37:37
this person who went through X amount of years of college and
37:40
all of these different things and, and different designations
37:43
under their under the letters of their name.
37:45
And you're sitting right here beside them or you're advising
37:47
them. So your lived experience Trump
37:49
that I I'll never forget. I was on trek.
37:51
I was going back and forth with the the secretary of the
37:55
Department of Public safety Department of Public Safety.
37:57
This is the largest agency employee wise in North Carolina.
38:01
Like everybody's housed up under the department of the prison
38:03
system was housed up under it. The Capitol Police was housed up
38:06
under like so many different entities and me and him were
38:09
going back and forth about solitary confinement.
38:11
And so he was telling me to start solitary confinement.
38:14
The, the psychological effects isn't that drastic, but I'm
38:18
telling him that it is because I did a year and a half, I did a
38:21
year in solitary confinement and my, my vent mate, after me being
38:24
back there four months with him, I could no longer have a
38:26
conversation with him because he, he, he really, it really
38:29
took a toll on. And so we're going back and
38:32
forth. And so it was at a moment I had
38:34
to stop and I said, well, excuse me, secretary, has you ever been
38:36
to solitary confinement? Like, no, I was like, well, have
38:38
you ever, have you ever? I said, so you just, so it's
38:40
safe to say you just studied on solitary confinement.
38:43
He said, yeah, I said, and I said and study extensive.
38:45
He's like, yeah, I studied extensive about it.
38:46
I was like, well, you know, with all due respect, I believe my
38:48
lived experience kind of trumped your book knowledge.
38:50
I was actually in solitary confinement for a year and a
38:52
half and get close to 1000 days throughout the course of my
38:54
incarceration. So I know the direct effects of
38:57
solitary confinement because I've witnessed it.
39:00
And everybody on the call was stunned.
39:01
Who was he talking? Well, and, and that gets rid of
39:05
the imposter syndrome because in that moment you realize you were
39:07
the expert. Exactly.
39:09
I'm supposed to be here because this is something I know.
39:13
And, and I think the other thing you said too, is that it's, it's
39:17
important when you have imposter syndrome or you're in the
39:20
situations where you don't think that you can do it, it's always
39:24
good to put the movie in your head and, and, and hit the play
39:27
button that, no, I did this over here and I got through that.
39:31
And so I can do this. I can whatever that because the
39:35
unknown is so scary all the time, because it's unknown until
39:39
you figure it out. And, and so I think you almost
39:41
have to do a mind hack on yourself and go back, hit the
39:45
play button is something you're proud that you got through,
39:47
whatever that was, whatever situation that was, but you
39:50
survived it and you moved on. And I think that gives you some
39:54
kind of unique confidence to say, OK, then I can do this.
39:57
All I got to do is just step into it.
39:59
The worst that can happen. I've already experienced really
40:02
bad stuff. So I, I think that's instructive
40:05
that that you everybody has imposter syndrome, but it's.
40:10
The light went on and it's like, wait a minute.
40:12
No, actually, I do belong here. I actually know more than this
40:16
guy that said he studied. He might be a professor or
40:18
whatever he is, but I know more than him.
40:20
I was there and, and then, then, then things were and then people
40:23
start listening. That's right.
40:25
People started listening to them because they realized that lived
40:27
experience is should be extremely valued regardless of
40:30
where you came from, right? And so, yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:33
I was in prison. But my lived experience of the
40:35
carceral system shaped me and molded my perception, my views
40:38
and me having the experience to advise these policies that
40:41
you're trying to implement. Because a lot of the times what
40:43
we see is those who are closest to the pain are furthest away
40:46
from the power, but oftentimes have the best solutions.
40:50
And that's been the secret sauce of my success because I got the
40:52
great solutions because I've been there.
40:54
I know it, I had to re enter. And so you have people making
40:56
policy, legislation who never experienced these things or not
41:00
even getting advice from people who experience these things.
41:02
And it'd be so far off, it'd be so far left that it doesn't help
41:05
anybody. And we know that help that don't
41:07
help ain't helpful. That's what we say in the peer
41:09
support space, right? And so like you're creating
41:12
these things that's not even helpful for nobody.
41:13
And it's just it's messing everything up.
41:16
Right, right. Exactly, like right now they're
41:19
working on a bill to try to reform supervision in the
41:23
federal system because it messes everything up.
41:27
Supervision should be should be something that helps you, not
41:29
hinders you, you know, like in the federal supervision.
41:33
And I don't know how the state works, but a lot of times they
41:35
have these requirements to where you're at a job and they pull
41:38
you out of that job because you got to have this meeting over
41:41
here or that person shows up at your job and takes away time
41:45
and, and causes ruckus when it is supposed to help you.
41:51
So all those things you just said, Kirwin, are so true.
41:55
Let's talk about this recidivism reduction campus, OK?
42:00
How in the world does something like that happen?
42:03
I I just walk us through it. I am still, it is still dawning
42:10
upon me in waves. And so sometimes I sit out on
42:12
the yard that I actually own and I'm just looking around the
42:16
prison like I own the yard. Literally like it's no.
42:20
Actually on the yard. Yeah, actually own the yard.
42:22
So I am the first woman crossword person in United
42:25
States history to go from being in prison to now purchasing a
42:28
prison, a decommissioned prison. And so when the opportunity
42:32
presented itself, it only seemed right.
42:35
And so I said, this is a moment not only to usher in a new era
42:38
for former incarcerated people, but usher in the era to where
42:41
institutions across the country can see what real rehabilitation
42:44
and real change should look like.
42:46
And it's gonna look like here at this particular campus that
42:49
we're going to have. And so the Recidivism Reduction
42:51
Campus was born. And, and, and it does a lot of
42:56
things. You got workforce development
42:58
behavior, health access, education, second chance
43:02
opportunities all around. How did you staff this thing?
43:09
Because it's that's a lot right there, what I just said.
43:11
It is a lot, it is a lot of moving pieces.
43:13
So I staffed it through lived experience, right?
43:16
And so knowing the pitfalls that I needed coming out and my
43:20
friends need it, I, I really feel these filled those gaps in
43:23
these spaces. And so it is a workforce
43:26
development campus. And So what I've done is I've
43:28
partnered with different second chance employers, which are a
43:30
lot of them are plants in the area and Ioffer and have slots
43:33
already carved out for my individuals so that I can find
43:36
them direct into jobs as soon as they come home.
43:38
And they can stay at that. They're on the residency side of
43:40
things for six months. And then towards the end of that
43:43
six months, we're going to take case management, social workers,
43:46
then look for them housing based off of the money they've saved.
43:49
We got them bank accounts. We automatically get signed up
43:51
for Medicaid, Medicare when you come in.
43:54
If you if you apply, we give you birth certificate, Social
43:56
Security card, ID, all of the things that are all the things
43:59
you need. We we get you that immediately.
44:01
And so the other track is vocational education track.
44:04
And So what this looks like is we train individuals and
44:06
industry level certification, brick racing, HVAC, plumbing,
44:10
electrical wiring, all of the central trades that society need
44:13
to function. But we know the workforce is
44:15
decreasing. Why?
44:16
Because that workforce is retiring and nobody's filling
44:18
this pool of people. Why not staff it with directly
44:21
impacted people with these trainings and certification?
44:23
So I've already started making partnerships with unions in
44:25
these spaces who going to hire these individuals immediately as
44:28
soon as they get their certifications and be able to
44:30
help them out. And so that I have the, I have
44:33
the opportunity youth side, which is that what we call the
44:35
at risk youth, but it's opportunity youth have that
44:37
side. For those who are the youth who
44:39
need this extra hand with behavior health issues through
44:42
through cognitive behavioral CBT therapy, cognitive behavioral
44:46
therapy to different art developments and art therapy for
44:49
the youth to kind of teach them about social emotional learning
44:52
and social emotional intelligence.
44:54
Because I was at risk youth at one time, right?
44:56
So I, I got that experience. And so I wanted to make sure
44:58
that I put this here for them as well.
45:00
And so we have a rope, we have a medical wing, right where we're
45:03
going to have dental, we're going to have a doctor, we're
45:05
going to have clinicians, we're going to have peer support,
45:07
we're going to have behavior health specialist there.
45:09
We'll have substance use specialist there.
45:11
It's just going to be we're literally calling this model the
45:14
the Amazon, the Walmart of re entry model.
45:18
I love it. I love it.
45:20
I mean, the reason why I love what you just said is that it's
45:24
a, it sounds to me like this could be something that's very
45:28
duplicatable. It's a system and it has a
45:32
process, and you could take it and drop it on all different
45:36
cities needing this help. And have you thought about that,
45:41
Kerwin, the duplicatable part of this being able not just North
45:46
Carolina, but all the way to California, taking this and put
45:50
it all under one umbrella? So we.
45:52
So I have thought about this. And so this particular model,
45:56
this first one we're standing up will be for men solely.
45:59
We're going to stand up a second one in our state for women.
46:01
And then I plan on taking this show across the road and looking
46:03
for decommissioned prisons across the country and starting
46:07
to do the same model there. So it is a scalable model.
46:09
And so the different programs that we've outfitted at my
46:12
organization are scalable models from my mobile unit to our call
46:15
center and now our actual campus that we have, we're going to be
46:18
scalable models. Love it.
46:21
I absolutely love it. What do you think car one after?
46:25
I mean, you've lived through a lot here.
46:27
I mean, we've we've talked about a lot of different things that
46:29
will happen in your life. What do you think's your biggest
46:32
take away through all of it? Never give up on yourself.
46:38
Never count yourself. Never count yourself out.
46:41
Never think you're not good enough.
46:43
Never think you don't belong in these spaces because you do
46:47
belong. And just because you made a
46:49
mistake or a bad decision, it does not amount to your life,
46:53
your total life sum. It is an opportunity for
46:56
redemption and it is an opportunity for second chances,
47:00
third chances, fourth chances, sixth chances.
47:02
How many chances? As long as you come to the
47:04
realization one day that I'm going to get it right and
47:06
actually start to get it right and that you are enough.
47:09
And so these are the things that I tell myself when because you
47:12
know, I suffer from post incarceration syndrome.
47:15
A lot of people suffer from picks right coming out of the
47:18
prisons and they don't even realize they suffer from
47:20
personal incarceration syndrome. Though it mirrors PTSD, it has
47:24
its own set of challenges. And so inside of post
47:26
incarceration syndrome, I suffer from survival guilt.
47:30
A lot of my people who I grew up with are either dead or in jail
47:34
and they're not as successful as I am.
47:35
And so a lot of times I have to step talk to myself because I
47:37
feel like, Kerwin, why you? And then I have to tell myself,
47:40
Kerwin, why not you? This is supposed to be you.
47:43
This is this is your mission, right, And everybody have their
47:46
own mission in in this space and in this world, and this is just
47:49
your mission that you're carved out to doing.
47:50
So I always self talk with self when I begin to have those self
47:54
doubt moments, because everybody have me as great as I am, right,
47:57
as many things as I've done and accomplished and as many
47:59
dignitaries I've set and you know, besides shoulder to
48:02
shoulder, from celebrities to to key stakeholders across the
48:05
country, I still have, you know, self doubt sometimes.
48:08
So I have to self talk myself. And so it is going to something
48:11
that's just going to happen. I know for me it's somebody from
48:14
incarcerated and for other people doing great things while
48:16
forming the class Ready. You just have to be able to
48:18
recognize when it happened and self talk to yourself that you
48:21
are great enough to be here and you belong in this space and you
48:24
own this space. I love that.
48:28
And like you said, keep the main thing, the main thing.
48:30
You probably ought to have that as a T-shirt, Kerwin, keep the
48:33
main thing, the main thing. And, and, and you've done that
48:36
and, and it just keeps working. And because you, you can't that
48:39
talks, you know, it knocks out so many different distractions.
48:43
Man, this is this is a great story, Kerwin, And I hope, I so
48:48
hope that you end up taking this and just duplicate it because it
48:52
is so needed. And, you know, exact all those
48:55
different things that you listed off and even the little things
48:58
that, that, that people don't talk about, you know, the
49:00
driver's license, the birth certificates, all those
49:02
different things. It's in the checklist of things
49:05
that people don't even know what they need, but you're checking
49:07
it off for them because you know that if they don't get that,
49:11
they're going to be on an island and, and won't be able to, to
49:14
get to the next step. Man, it's good stuff.
49:18
Talk about other good stuff. I want to, I want to thank
49:21
Homestead Financial for letting me use this podcast room, all
49:24
the fancy cameras and lights. And if you've got, oh, I want to
49:30
ask you Kerwin, if people want to get a hold of you, where,
49:33
where do they go? How do they get a hold of you?
49:35
So you can reach out through my website at www.rreps.net.
49:40
Again, www.rreps.net. I'm Kirwan Pittman on all
49:45
socials. Definitely reach out to me
49:47
through social media. Yeah, please feel free to get in
49:50
contact with me, connect with me.
49:51
I have a call center as well that help connect people through
49:54
reentry resources from one end of the state to the other.
49:57
So if you know somebody coming home to North Carolina that need
49:59
reentry resource information, definitely feel free to give us
50:02
a call at 1888852 004. Again 1-888-852-0004 Y'all feel
50:11
free to reach out to me. I love it.
50:14
Love it. If you guys are while you're
50:17
doing all that surfing on the Internet, if you ended up at
50:19
Amazon, go get my book. It's called Nightmare.
50:22
Success, Loyalty, betrayal, life behind bars, adapting, finally
50:24
breaking free. And if you got time, I know it's
50:27
a hassle, but if you got time, leave me a review on Apple.
50:30
I love those things, love to read them.
50:31
It helps the show. If you want to know any more
50:33
about what I got it going on, go to brickcassidy.com.
50:36
I spell it wrong. I spell it with ATY, not a DY.
50:40
And as I used to say to my people when I was writing my
50:43
emails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong.
50:46
I'll do the same. Kerwin Pitman, man, keep doing
50:50
it. Keep getting it.
50:52
Yeah, keep, definitely keep. Keep the main thing the main
50:54
thing and keep it going duplicated everywhere.
50:57
We are. Next time I'm I'm you're gonna
50:59
look up and say you got 10 prisons.
51:02
Love it and we'll come back on and talk about that.
51:04
That's right. All right, Kerwin Pittman,
51:08
nightmare success in and out.