Latest / WriterCon / 200th Anniversary Episode!!! with Will and Julia Bryan Thomas

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200th Anniversary Episode!!! with Will and Julia Bryan Thomas · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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Speaker 2: I always say to be a good writer, you need
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Speaker 2: to be a good reader.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker Books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award
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Speaker 1: winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey there writers, thanks for joining
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Speaker 3: us today. We are celebrating our two hundredth episode.
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Speaker 4: Thank you.
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Speaker 3: Love the special effects. Jesse. Oh no about the rest
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Speaker 3: of you, guys, but I can hardly believe it. I
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Speaker 3: kind of remember when we started this podcast. At that time,
0:54
Speaker 3: we had a whisper room really as a clothes class
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Speaker 3: that we converted into something we could record. Lara was
1:01
Speaker 3: doing audio books. Then I started recording those Red Sneaker
1:05
Speaker 3: Writer books, writing books on writing, and then I started
1:10
Speaker 3: doing the podcast in the clothes closet, and then we
1:14
Speaker 3: upgraded and moved to Jesse and much better apartment recording,
1:20
Speaker 3: and we were live for a while, but that was
1:24
Speaker 3: just way more true. And now we've got Lara on board,
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Speaker 3: and of course that's when it really clicked. So here's
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Speaker 3: to another two hundred episodes. Team Laura. Do you have
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Speaker 3: any memories or interviews or moments on all the episodes
1:45
Speaker 3: that stick out in your mind?
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Speaker 5: Oh gosh, I'm gonna go with.
1:53
Speaker 6: It.
1:53
Speaker 5: Was such a treat to interview Jerry Eisenberg about his
1:58
Speaker 5: first novel that was on his bucket list to write.
2:01
Speaker 5: He's been writing his entire career as a sports writer.
2:05
Speaker 5: He's been a journalist for decades and decades, but his
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Speaker 5: first novel he published when he was ninety ninety one.
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Speaker 5: It just goes to show you it is never too
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Speaker 5: late go after your dreams.
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Speaker 6: Do it.
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Speaker 5: And he's got another novel coming out next year, so
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Speaker 5: good for him.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesse, how about you favorite moments on the podcast?
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Speaker 1: Well, anytime I'm allowed to make fun of James Parison
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Speaker 1: is always a delight. So that's that's always been great.
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Speaker 1: I love that one author I can't remember his name,
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Speaker 1: but he wrote like I can't remember his Star Trek
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Speaker 1: tie in novels or like he had written for one
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Speaker 1: of the Star Trek video games. That was fun for me,
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Speaker 1: Dan Mark, thank you, Yes, that was fun.
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Speaker 3: William's son, Yeah, and he wrote for the Star Trek.
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Speaker 3: That was a good Yeah, We've had a lot of
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Speaker 3: good moments. Shall we keep going, guys, two hundred more?
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Speaker 3: At least, you know, forever, year, forever.
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Speaker 1: Listen, keep doing this podcast until James Parison appears.
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Speaker 4: How about that?
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Speaker 3: That really should be the last?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what can we do after that?
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Speaker 6: That's right? What would come after that? You're right?
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Speaker 3: Okay? Our interview with today is a very special one,
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Speaker 3: as befits the occasion. We're talking to both Will and
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Speaker 3: Julia Bryan Thomas, to married writers that we love. It's
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Speaker 3: particularly special though, because they were in the first group
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Speaker 3: of interviews I ever did for this podcast, way back when,
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Speaker 3: and here they are again, two hundred episodes later. Will Thomas,
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Speaker 3: of course, is the author of the award winning Victorian
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Speaker 3: mystery series is featuring Barker and Llewellyn, and Julia is
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Speaker 3: the author of now five novels, most recently The Kennedy Girls.
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Speaker 3: All right, we will talk to them very soon, but
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Speaker 3: first the news. Okay, calling this the news segment is
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Speaker 3: kind of a major league misnomer because it's really going
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Speaker 3: to be more of a summation of the last two
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Speaker 3: hundred episodes, as seems appropriate. I look through some of
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Speaker 3: the notes I had for previous episodes. They can tell
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Speaker 3: you I never write out in full, but I give
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Speaker 3: suggestions where we're going. Anyway, I found to know one's
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Speaker 3: surprised that the two most prevalent or recurring topics and
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Speaker 3: the news was Amazon and AI. And when you think
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Speaker 3: about it, we've only been talking about AI for a
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Speaker 3: few years, and yet it's already I mean, it's constantly
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Speaker 3: rising to the surface of the news, so that may
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Speaker 3: be telling anyway. Amazon is of course America's biggest bookseller
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Speaker 3: by far, and the mechanism used by publishers and self
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Speaker 3: publishers to get their work in front of readers, So
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Speaker 3: obviously it's relevant to this writing podcast, So Laara, just
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Speaker 3: to summarize two hundred episodes or so, is Amazon a
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Speaker 3: force for good in the writing world? Or is it
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Speaker 3: the necessary evil we have to deal with whether we
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Speaker 3: like it or not, or something else in between.
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Speaker 5: Probably probably in between, but skewing more.
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Speaker 6: Towards the necessary evil.
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Speaker 5: I think when I first became interested in writing and
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Speaker 5: was getting excited about the idea of self publishing, it
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Speaker 5: seemed like a real a business, championing, championing championing, championing
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Speaker 5: for authors. It seems like they were on our side,
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Speaker 5: but it's a business more than anything, and it's i think,
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Speaker 5: become more and more difficult to actually.
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Speaker 6: Get books out there.
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Speaker 5: It's allowed the market to become very glutted, and it's just, yeah,
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Speaker 5: we are where we are. I know people who hopped
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Speaker 5: on board that when they first started distributing digital books,
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Speaker 5: and they had huge readerships and garnered big followings and
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Speaker 5: were making real money at it, And I think that
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Speaker 5: has become very deluded now and they've grown so big
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Speaker 5: that we have to deal with them, but I'm not
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Speaker 5: so sure it's always good. And we've had one story
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Speaker 5: after another where they have actually caused harm to authors
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Speaker 5: in one way or another, and there's almost no recourse,
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Speaker 5: it feels like. So it does not feel like they
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Speaker 5: are rooting for us anymore.
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Speaker 3: Jesse, where are you and your relationship with Amazon?
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Speaker 1: I mean it's a complicated one because like, do I own?
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Speaker 1: Have I owned? I just got an email from Amazon
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Speaker 1: that my first Kindle I bought fifteen years ago. They
7:39
Speaker 1: were like, thank you for being a Kindle customer for
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Speaker 1: this long. Here's a twenty percent coupon and that really
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Speaker 1: did get me thinking about how Amazon was more useful
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Speaker 1: when it was just a marketplace. As soon as Amazon
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Speaker 1: started to get into things where it was profiting from
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Speaker 1: things like it has been a series of just like
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Speaker 1: hurtful to the creator's side of it ever since. And
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Speaker 1: but again it is also the largest place to go. So,
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Speaker 1: you know, bookshop that org will never be as big
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Speaker 1: as Amazon because where else can you buy a book
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Speaker 1: and like, you know, dishwashing tablets and you know, and
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Speaker 1: microphones and anything. Yeah, it's the you know, it's the
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Speaker 1: service merchandise of Internet stories. But I do think anything
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Speaker 1: we do to democratize the publishing industry is a positive.
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Speaker 1: What is done with that positive can sometimes also be
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Speaker 1: a negative.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so well, and on the other side of this,
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Speaker 3: AI is the tool that it seems like everybody keeps
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Speaker 3: saying is going to change everything, but I has it.
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Speaker 3: It's sent wave of waves of panic through the writing world,
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Speaker 3: I know, and probably several other worlds. Granted, AI is
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Speaker 3: already doing things that humans used to do in some
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Speaker 3: cases quicker, though usually not as well. But that's that
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Speaker 3: actually changed anything. Jesse. I remember you said on another
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Speaker 3: podcast that are on an earlier episode. I mean that
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Speaker 3: you don't want to see AI doing the work of creatives.
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Speaker 3: But where I see it now is mostly you know,
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Speaker 3: summarizing your email or making memos or kind of dealing
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Speaker 3: with clerical jobs.
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Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 1: Good problem, No, that's what it should be doing. It should
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Speaker 1: be trying to make our lives easier. Like why does
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Speaker 1: every technology have to be turned into a thing that's
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Speaker 1: supposed to make billions of dollars? Like it could actually
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Speaker 1: just be useful, right, But like that's the that's the difference.
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Speaker 1: The difference between what is good for us as consumers
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Speaker 1: and what is good for the economy are two different things,
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Speaker 1: and AI is a perfect example of that, like the
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Speaker 1: trying to build a couple of data centers like outside
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Speaker 1: of Telsa here, And I'm like, no, no, no, Like
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Speaker 1: you don't get tax breaks or someone that doesn't make
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Speaker 1: money yet that's going to make my life worse. Right,
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Speaker 1: Prove to me this is a worthwhile investment of money. First,
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Speaker 1: don't just like assume that AI is always going to
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Speaker 1: be useful. And again, you know, we're using the term
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Speaker 1: AI for something that has already existed ever since Clippy
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Speaker 1: arrived through Microsoft Office right, someone who's just helping us
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Speaker 1: with things like help me, help me AI, help me
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Speaker 1: with my calendar, don't don't make paintings, don't make videos.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Laura, as a writer, and a very good one,
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Speaker 3: is there anything you would be willing to use AI four?
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Speaker 5: Not yet? And yeah, I'm probably just gonna sound like
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Speaker 5: grumpy old man here, but no, not yet.
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Speaker 6: I yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 5: I when I am looking something up online, I absolutely
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Speaker 5: scroll down anything that says here's what AI found for you.
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Speaker 5: I don't want to see it. I have found incorrect
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Speaker 5: information in that just when glancing over it. So I've
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Speaker 5: learned to skip over that, and I will go look
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Speaker 5: for something that I consider a more reputable source. I
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Speaker 5: want to find something that's not just an AI overview.
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Speaker 5: I don't want it writing anything for me. I teach
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Speaker 5: writing classes, I teach aspiring authors. If somebody can find
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Speaker 5: a way to use that that's helpful for them, I
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Speaker 5: guess that's great, but I would worry that it's stealing
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Speaker 5: someone else's words. We got to worry about plagiarism if
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Speaker 5: we want to write our own stuff.
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Speaker 6: I don't know.
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Speaker 5: I can't think of anything, not even an outline, that
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Speaker 5: I would want it's helped with.
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Speaker 3: Okay, well, here's a question for either of you or both.
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Speaker 3: AI does seem to have some capacity for doing research,
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Speaker 3: for finding the answers to questions or information about things.
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Speaker 3: Would you ever read nonfiction? Like, not a novel that's creative,
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Speaker 3: but a like nonfiction?
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Speaker 5: Isn't it?
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Speaker 3: But you know what I'm saying? Would you read nonfiction
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Speaker 3: that had been generated by AI.
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Speaker 1: Like a book or like a research paper? I've asked
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Speaker 1: it to write for me.
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Speaker 3: Oh well, you probably wouldn't have asked unless you wanted
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Speaker 3: to read the paper, right, So I know that one? No,
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Speaker 3: a book? No something you know, history of World War two?
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Speaker 3: Except here it is right on your computer.
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Speaker 1: No, because yeah, that's not a novel. That's just a
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Speaker 1: resets station of facts. That's not what historians do in
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Speaker 1: a nonfiction book. They're trying to tell you a story
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Speaker 1: from a perspective they think is important. And every time
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Speaker 1: AI tries to give its perspective on thing, it quickly
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Speaker 1: turns into you know, a far right Nazisque thing. So like,
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Speaker 1: I don't want it having opinions.
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Speaker 5: I wouldn't trust anything in it. I wouldn't I don't
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Speaker 5: want to read it. I wouldn't believe it. One of
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Speaker 5: my adjuncts wrote a paper about AI making up sources,
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Speaker 5: making up cases that didn't exist, court cases that didn't exist,
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Speaker 5: that it was trying to use as precedent. No, I
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Speaker 5: just I wouldn't believe it. I wouldn't trust it.
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Speaker 3: All right, let's move on to craft Corner. Craft Corner
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Speaker 3: this time comes from our longtime writer con friend Marty Ludlam,
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Speaker 3: author of At First I Was Afraid, the first book
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Speaker 3: in his new disco themed mystery series. He sent me
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Speaker 3: an email asking if he could do another segment, expanding
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Speaker 3: upon his thoughts about writers conference says for the two
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Speaker 3: hundredth episode. So what was I going to say? Yes,
14:00
Speaker 3: of course you can, Marty. So here we go, Marty,
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Speaker 3: take it away, Craft Quarner.
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Speaker 4: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. This is Marty Ludlam. Today we're talking
14:16
Speaker 4: about the benefits of writer conferences. Part dose that's Spanish.
14:22
Speaker 4: See where fun and educational about me? I write the
14:26
Speaker 4: Disco Divas series featuring the ever popular hero Donna Summer
14:31
Speaker 4: was Nicky. Yes, she's named after the disco queen. It's
14:35
Speaker 4: a long story. The first in the series, At First
14:39
Speaker 4: I Was Afraid, I Was Petrified was released from Babylon
14:43
Speaker 4: Books last year. Has won several awards. Check it out.
14:47
Speaker 4: It's available everywhere books are sold. But two in the series,
14:52
Speaker 4: She Works Hard for the Money. Another cheesy Donna summer
14:56
Speaker 4: reference again, I Can't Help Myself, is available early twenty
14:59
Speaker 4: twenty s from Babylon Books. I'll let you know the
15:02
Speaker 4: exact date later in Part one. The benefits of conferences.
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Speaker 4: I mentioned information and inspiration. That's not the only benefits
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Speaker 4: of going to a writer's conference. Today, we'll talk about contests, pitching,
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Speaker 4: beta readers, and an advanced team. First contests, yen, are
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Speaker 4: lots of writing contests at a writer's conference. Again, when
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Speaker 4: in a trophy is good, it motivates in many ways.
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Speaker 4: But I think the real benefit of contests again, any
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Speaker 4: well run contest is everybody who submits will get some
15:40
Speaker 4: kind of feedback, and that feedback on your writing is
15:45
Speaker 4: worth its weight in gold. Even if you didn't win.
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Speaker 4: Somebody looking at your writing again, who doesn't know who
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Speaker 4: you are, but just evaluating your writing says, here's what's good,
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Speaker 4: here's what's bad. Priceless information. The King Stephen King, in
16:02
Speaker 4: his book on Writing mentions that writing is so lonely
16:06
Speaker 4: you can only do it by yourself, in complete solitude,
16:10
Speaker 4: and sometimes you just need crave want that feedback to
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Speaker 4: motivate you as a writer. Second benefit of going to
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Speaker 4: a conference's pitching. What is it? And should you do it? Pitching,
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Speaker 4: like the name implies, is your sales pitch? Again, typically
16:28
Speaker 4: sixty seconds at max, short, sweet direct of Hey, what's
16:35
Speaker 4: your book about? Boom, Now it's your turn to talk.
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Speaker 4: You got sixty seconds to maintain their attention. Tell them
16:41
Speaker 4: everything that they need to know about why they need
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Speaker 4: to buy your book right now, and again, whether it's
16:48
Speaker 4: for readers, for agents, for publishers, it's the same sales pitch.
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Speaker 4: This is why your book is worth listening to. Should
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Speaker 4: you do it? Yes? Yes, and yes and again. When
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Speaker 4: you do that at a conference, you'll get priceless, priceless
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Speaker 4: feedback on what's good and bad about your sales pitch. Hey,
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Speaker 4: did you mention the genre? Did you mention is this
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Speaker 4: a novel? Novella? Short story? Did you mention who the
17:16
Speaker 4: main character is, what's going on? A lot of times
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Speaker 4: you skip those very crucial details that make the reader,
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Speaker 4: the agent, the publisher. So concerned about your writing. The
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Speaker 4: third big benefit of going to a writer's conference is
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Speaker 4: finding beta readers who Yeah who. These are people who
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Speaker 4: read read your work in progress and give feedback both
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Speaker 4: positive and negative. Again, you need both. You need praise
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Speaker 4: on what works, and you need identification on what isn't working.
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Speaker 4: These folks will be your new best friends because they
17:55
Speaker 4: are so crucial to making this process work. Read do
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Speaker 4: come in all shapes and sizes. Some will read your
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Speaker 4: eighty thousand word novel and give you a paragraph. Some
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Speaker 4: will read it and give you twenty pages of notes.
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Speaker 4: Both of them are absolutely solid gold as far as
18:17
Speaker 4: keys to improving your writing. Everything they tell you is
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Speaker 4: worth its weight. Follow it like a to do list
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Speaker 4: rather than this criticism. Last an advanced team. Again, this
18:32
Speaker 4: is later in the process. Once your manuscript is ready,
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Speaker 4: you've got a publisher, it's going to come out in
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Speaker 4: sixty ninety days. Your advanced team are folks who will
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Speaker 4: talk it up, share the idea on Facebook wherever you
18:45
Speaker 4: need publicity. Again, they're basically your cheerleaders. Yeah, very interesting.
18:53
Speaker 4: I hear Dallas is getting a pro team next year.
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Speaker 4: That should be exciting. Anyway, one of your conferences that
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Speaker 4: I highly recommend because I've gone to it repeatedly, and
19:03
Speaker 4: before I leave, I go ahead and sign up for
19:06
Speaker 4: next year. Yeah, it's that good writer con. It's always
19:09
Speaker 4: Labor Day weekend here in Oklahoma City. Sixty plus speakers
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Speaker 4: cover all genres of writing, so no matter what you write, nonfiction, history, romance,
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Speaker 4: science fiction, anything, we've got stuff for you. And in addition,
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Speaker 4: there is pitching, there's contests, there's opportunities to meet with
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Speaker 4: writers so you can find beta readers and advanced team
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Speaker 4: It's priceless. No matter where you are on your writing journey,
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Speaker 4: conferences can help. I love this picture because it's such
19:47
Speaker 4: a perfect metaphor for the real writing journey. It's bumpy,
19:52
Speaker 4: it's uneven, and yeah, you can get splinters. That describes
19:57
Speaker 4: the writing process perfectly. Hope you enjoyed it. If you
20:01
Speaker 4: have any more questions, contact me at the email Hello
20:04
Speaker 4: not I'll see you next time.
20:10
Speaker 3: Thank you, Marty Ludlam. Now let's talk to Will and
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Speaker 3: Julia Brian Thomas, Will and Julia, welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us.
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Speaker 7: Great to be here.
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Speaker 3: Hey there, all right, you know what my first question
20:34
Speaker 3: is going to be I don't care which of you
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Speaker 3: answers it or both, whatever you want. But if you
20:40
Speaker 3: could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be.
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Speaker 2: Do you want to go?
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Speaker 7: I'll go first. I would say, break out of the box.
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Speaker 7: I could have written just your classic of Victorian mystery,
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Speaker 7: but that wasn't interesting enough. I guess I would say, Yeah,
21:02
Speaker 7: I had to make a bunch of changes and change
21:05
Speaker 7: the format and change the narrator, and that's what made
21:11
Speaker 7: my series how it is today.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true. What about you, Julia?
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Speaker 2: I always say to be a good writer, you need
21:20
Speaker 2: to be a good reader, and it's really important to
21:23
Speaker 2: keep abreast of the trends in literature. But also I
21:27
Speaker 2: read such an eclectic mix of nonfiction and classic novels,
21:33
Speaker 2: and then I skim around on some of the more
21:36
Speaker 2: modern literature too. It's really good to read the highest
21:40
Speaker 2: quality that you can so that it shapes you a
21:44
Speaker 2: little bit as a writer.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
21:47
Speaker 3: I think that's good advice too. This is a true story.
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Speaker 3: I'm at a college campus giving a talk to I
21:52
Speaker 3: don't remember, some group of people who actually care about books.
21:57
Speaker 3: Any student comes up to me afterwards and says, mister
22:03
Speaker 3: Burnhard could you give me advice? I really want to
22:06
Speaker 3: be a writer, but I hate to read. What do
22:09
Speaker 3: you recommend? And I thought for a moment and said,
22:14
Speaker 3: I recommend you do something else because that writing is
22:19
Speaker 3: not going to happen for you. I'm sorry, but you
22:23
Speaker 3: got to feed the muse, right. You got to read
22:25
Speaker 3: if you want to write. Not necessarily the same thing
22:29
Speaker 3: you're writing, but you've got to read, all right. It
22:32
Speaker 3: is such a pleasure to have you two back on
22:34
Speaker 3: the podcast. I think I already mentioned this, but you
22:38
Speaker 3: two were in the group the first interviews I ever did,
22:43
Speaker 3: and that was about I don't know seven writer cons
22:46
Speaker 3: Ago or something, but I thought you were there at
22:49
Speaker 3: the very beginning. What a blast it would be to
22:51
Speaker 3: have you back for the two hundredth episode. Was that
22:56
Speaker 3: your first podcast ever?
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Speaker 6: I think it was.
23:02
Speaker 3: I know you've done a few.
23:04
Speaker 2: Absolutely was.
23:07
Speaker 4: Cool.
23:08
Speaker 5: Will can you can you tell us about your novels
23:13
Speaker 5: the Barker and Luwellyn series. I know we have a
23:17
Speaker 5: we have a big fan among our children, but maybe
23:19
Speaker 5: you can share with our listeners about that series.
23:24
Speaker 7: I get compared to Sherlock Holmes a lot, of course,
23:28
Speaker 7: but I immediately turned a corner and changed completely from
23:34
Speaker 7: the way he envisions it. My character is more a
23:37
Speaker 7: you know, punch first and ask questions later. H very
23:48
Speaker 7: dour Scotsman Baptist. And then he's stuck with an assistant
23:53
Speaker 7: who is the narrator, who is uh small, artistic and
23:58
Speaker 7: in every way not really designed to be a detective
24:03
Speaker 7: at all. So put them together and have my one
24:07
Speaker 7: character totally mouthy and the other one, you know, dour,
24:11
Speaker 7: and that's how the books start.
24:15
Speaker 3: Well, it's worked magnificently. There have been how many books
24:17
Speaker 3: in this series yet seventeen seventeen. Holy smokes, you're gaining
24:24
Speaker 3: on Ben Kincaid. I did nineteen of those. I think
24:27
Speaker 3: I'm going to do another one just so I can
24:29
Speaker 3: stay ahead of you. Do it, okay, Julia, And my
24:38
Speaker 3: memory is not worth anything, but I think when we
24:41
Speaker 3: did that interview for the podcast, I mentioned you were
24:45
Speaker 3: just embarking on your publishing career. But since then your
24:49
Speaker 3: career has taken off big time. I think, if I
24:53
Speaker 3: remember this correctly, the first time I saw one of
24:55
Speaker 3: your books in the airport, I took a picture and
24:58
Speaker 3: texted it to you. Is just man, You're in the
25:01
Speaker 3: big leagues now. How does that feel.
25:04
Speaker 2: It's really wonderful we had after your kids were a
25:11
Speaker 2: little bit older, we thought what do we want to do,
25:13
Speaker 2: and we thought we would write, And of course I tried.
25:18
Speaker 2: I tried publishing a novel, and I couldn't. When Will
25:22
Speaker 2: embarked on his career, so I really started through editing
25:26
Speaker 2: his books and working with him and getting to know
25:29
Speaker 2: the process, getting a feel for what that felt like.
25:34
Speaker 2: But I continued to try to get published, and I
25:39
Speaker 2: finally hit on it. My first success was For Those
25:43
Speaker 2: who Were Lost in twenty twenty two, which I wrote
25:47
Speaker 2: during the pandemic. I actually wrote that book in three months,
25:52
Speaker 2: edited it in the fourth month. It's about four hundred pages,
25:56
Speaker 2: but it was during the pandemic summer, and I just
26:00
Speaker 2: i the opportunity to be off. I was a school
26:02
Speaker 2: teacher and I needed something to occupy my time and
26:05
Speaker 2: think about. So it's just been an extraordinary journey to
26:10
Speaker 2: kind of come into my own. I enjoy helping Will
26:14
Speaker 2: and you know, being on the editing side and just
26:18
Speaker 2: being there, and he's just been so incredibly helpful to
26:20
Speaker 2: me too, So it's been a really wonderful process.
26:25
Speaker 5: Fad. Now, your most recent novel is The Kennedy Girl,
26:30
Speaker 5: which came out January earlier. Yeah, I think that's a
26:35
Speaker 5: little bit of a change of pace for you, is n'nick?
26:38
Speaker 6: Can you tell us about that one?
26:40
Speaker 2: After I wrote For Those Who Are Lost, which is
26:42
Speaker 2: set during World War Two from nineteen forty to nineteen
26:45
Speaker 2: forty five, with a little glimpse of after I sat
26:49
Speaker 2: down and I wrote a book set in nineteen fifty five,
26:52
Speaker 2: and I realized I really love writing historical fiction, but
26:56
Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily want to be pigeonholed as World War Two.
27:00
Speaker 2: So I wrote The Radcliffe Ladies Reading Club, which came
27:05
Speaker 2: out in twenty twenty three, and that was just a
27:09
Speaker 2: great experience. But The Kennedy Girl it said in nineteen sixty,
27:13
Speaker 2: so it qualifies as historical, but just kind of more
27:19
Speaker 2: modern era. And it's a spine novel. It's a bit
27:22
Speaker 2: of a thriller, so that it was fun. I had
27:26
Speaker 2: to do a lot more research and it was just
27:31
Speaker 2: so challenging to sit down and write a book like that.
27:34
Speaker 3: Okay, guys, all this talking about books is great, but
27:37
Speaker 3: of course what we really want here on the podcast
27:41
Speaker 3: is the gossip. So what's it like two writers living
27:45
Speaker 3: together in the same household. I want the dirt, Julia,
27:49
Speaker 3: you go first.
27:50
Speaker 2: You know, what everyone thinks is that we sit at
27:53
Speaker 2: little desks side by side, and we tap it out
27:56
Speaker 2: and we get our coffee, and you know, we interrupt
27:59
Speaker 2: each other all day long. But actually we both write
28:03
Speaker 2: on laptops and we move around the house wherever we're comfortable. Well,
28:07
Speaker 2: sometimes we'll even right outside, and so we kind of
28:12
Speaker 2: have to be a little far apart or else we
28:13
Speaker 2: would just talk and not write.
28:15
Speaker 3: So now you're often kind of shoulder Laura, me on
28:22
Speaker 3: the recliner, of course, you on the I don't think
28:25
Speaker 3: we have a chit chat problem. There's a good reason
28:30
Speaker 3: for it.
28:31
Speaker 5: No, But there are times that I go somewhere else
28:34
Speaker 5: if I need to, because there's there's always and there's
28:37
Speaker 5: always something. You will laugh at something, even if you're
28:40
Speaker 5: not chit chatting, and I have to know what it
28:42
Speaker 5: was that caught your attention, or here come the cats
28:46
Speaker 5: wanting attention. So yeah, sometimes I try to isolate a
28:49
Speaker 5: little bit just so I can you can.
28:53
Speaker 7: We're literally joined at the hips here.
28:58
Speaker 3: What I was about to ask you will, what's your
29:01
Speaker 3: rebuttal or your take on this spousal writers in the
29:05
Speaker 3: same household.
29:07
Speaker 7: Well, I've actually been in the situation where the dog
29:10
Speaker 7: is in my lap and my computer is on the dog.
29:13
Speaker 3: I get that.
29:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's crazy.
29:17
Speaker 7: Anywhere you can find a spot to write, it doesn't
29:20
Speaker 7: seem to be, you know, one constant place to be writing.
29:25
Speaker 2: And the way he can better than I can't.
29:30
Speaker 3: That makes sense. I mentioned I'm strangely right most of
29:36
Speaker 3: the time in a recliner now, but exactly what you said,
29:39
Speaker 3: except for us, it's cats. Cats get in my lap.
29:43
Speaker 3: If you're on a desk, forget it. You're going to
29:45
Speaker 3: write like this. That's never gonna work. So but on
29:48
Speaker 3: a recliner, there's this big arm over there where I
29:50
Speaker 3: can put the laptop and right sideways.
29:55
Speaker 2: Exactly it.
29:57
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, yeah, I have to point out.
30:02
Speaker 5: I think that we are the only two couples that
30:06
Speaker 5: have both been nominated for the Oklahoma Book Award.
30:11
Speaker 6: I know, I.
30:12
Speaker 3: Bet you who else would it be? I can't think
30:15
Speaker 3: of anyone. I bet you're right.
30:17
Speaker 2: I think you two were nominated for the first time
30:20
Speaker 2: the year before at the same time the year before
30:23
Speaker 2: we were, and then we were all in that second year.
30:26
Speaker 6: And then all of us, yes, and then both couples
30:30
Speaker 6: together the next year.
30:31
Speaker 3: That's what I alright, But somehow.
30:36
Speaker 6: That's not how writers do. No. Well, how have you
30:42
Speaker 6: seen the mystery world change?
30:43
Speaker 5: I mean you talked about you have seventeen books out now,
30:46
Speaker 5: you've obviously been writing for some time. I mean books
30:50
Speaker 5: take a while to write. How has the mystery world
30:53
Speaker 5: changed in the years since you started publishing or have
30:56
Speaker 5: you even noticed a change?
30:58
Speaker 7: There have been changes. When I started, the field was
31:04
Speaker 7: all female, and I came in with, you know, like
31:09
Speaker 7: knowledge of martial arts and things like that. And I
31:13
Speaker 7: got in there actually and Perry gave me a piece
31:19
Speaker 7: of information or suggested something for me. And we were
31:23
Speaker 7: talking about this earlier.
31:25
Speaker 2: It was Donald Moss.
31:26
Speaker 7: He was her editor at the time, and he wrote
31:30
Speaker 7: a book called Writing the Breakout Novel, and that was
31:33
Speaker 7: the book that I studied that helped me to write
31:36
Speaker 7: the first book that got a publisher.
31:39
Speaker 3: When I knew and wasn't she a wonderful person? I
31:42
Speaker 3: just adored her kind of person who you know, you're
31:46
Speaker 3: at some banquet table and she's super nice and you think, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:49
Speaker 3: And then she actually called my editor the next day
31:52
Speaker 3: and asked for a copy of my book and read
31:54
Speaker 3: it and sent me a postcard afterwards telling me how
31:57
Speaker 3: much she enjoyed it. I mean, class absolutely So Laura
32:07
Speaker 3: asked Will about the mystery World. Let me direct this
32:11
Speaker 3: to you, Julia. I want to talk about source Books,
32:15
Speaker 3: who I know, of course has published you in the past,
32:19
Speaker 3: and we're just in the news. I think we covered
32:21
Speaker 3: this story about the Basically, their sales are so fantastic
32:25
Speaker 3: that they should be considered one of the Big five publishers,
32:30
Speaker 3: even though they're actually owned in part by another of
32:33
Speaker 3: the Big five publishers. But the point is that sales
32:37
Speaker 3: fueled by people like you have turned them into a
32:41
Speaker 3: hugely successful operations. So what's your take. Is it helpful
32:49
Speaker 3: to be part of this booming, large publishing house.
32:53
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful publishing house. I've really, really, really enjoyed
32:56
Speaker 2: working with them. I've had the most wonderful team of
33:00
Speaker 2: professionals to work with, from editors to copy editors and
33:06
Speaker 2: the most unbelievably professional publicists. I feel like, in some
33:14
Speaker 2: ways I see more action through my publisher than even
33:18
Speaker 2: Will does, which is kind of interesting. So they are
33:21
Speaker 2: on it. They really really care about their writers, and
33:28
Speaker 2: they put out such a big push for every book
33:31
Speaker 2: I know. For The Kennedy Girl, they came up with
33:33
Speaker 2: paper dolls. In my book set in nineteen sixty in
33:37
Speaker 2: the fashion world, it's a spine novel, and they came
33:40
Speaker 2: up with paper dolls because that was what you would
33:42
Speaker 2: have seen in nineteen sixty. For my World War Two book,
33:47
Speaker 2: there was a music playlist of hits. I love old
33:51
Speaker 2: movies and I love old music, so they had me
33:55
Speaker 2: put together my favorite playlist of World War two music
33:59
Speaker 2: and recipes in that time period. So I had each
34:02
Speaker 2: of my characters present a recipe that they loved. So
34:06
Speaker 2: I just feel like the attention to detail is is
34:09
Speaker 2: just really there. With that character, you're.
34:12
Speaker 3: Given a thumbs up to trad publishing because you know
34:17
Speaker 3: people will speak on either side. Will you of course,
34:20
Speaker 3: have had to endure being published by the small, little
34:24
Speaker 3: known publisher as Simon and Schuster, right, yes, that was
34:28
Speaker 3: a joke. There obviously another big five publisher and huge
34:33
Speaker 3: and successful and distributing my next book, So you're not
34:38
Speaker 3: going to hear me dissing them. But anyway, how has
34:41
Speaker 3: the traditional publishing experience been for you?
34:47
Speaker 7: It's been pretty great.
34:50
Speaker 3: Books right right.
34:54
Speaker 2: I was going to say, I feel like you don't
34:56
Speaker 2: have to worry about anything, you know, there's there's just
34:59
Speaker 2: a team kind of taking care of you.
35:02
Speaker 7: I really enjoy the the art team that's produced this, uh, this,
35:06
Speaker 7: you know series of books.
35:09
Speaker 2: Uh.
35:10
Speaker 7: They're very they listen to what you what you want,
35:13
Speaker 7: and they actually uh you know, make the changes you
35:16
Speaker 7: know you desire, and they're very creative. My original and
35:21
Speaker 7: the first books were kind of monochrome. These one's they're
35:24
Speaker 7: sliding into blues and pinks and everything else in this
35:27
Speaker 7: Victorian you know background. It's interesting.
35:30
Speaker 3: Mhm m.
35:33
Speaker 6: Very cool.
35:35
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Well you've talked about how you sit nearby
35:38
Speaker 5: each other with your laptops.
35:40
Speaker 6: I got a writing day, look like for both of you.
35:45
Speaker 6: What what is your what is your process?
35:48
Speaker 2: Well, we're both full time writers now, so everything's different
35:53
Speaker 2: than it was just three or four years ago when
35:56
Speaker 2: we were working full time and had to write at
35:59
Speaker 2: night and on weekend. So now we're able to pace
36:03
Speaker 2: ourselves a little bit better and experiment with different times
36:07
Speaker 2: a day where we feel more creative. I think Will
36:09
Speaker 2: really enjoys writing in the morning, and I've started bending
36:13
Speaker 2: toward writing in the afternoons a lot lately, and sometimes
36:17
Speaker 2: even in the evening.
36:20
Speaker 7: I get up in the morning and then I go
36:21
Speaker 7: to my I have a bucket of coffee, and then
36:23
Speaker 7: a taichi class, and then they come back and I
36:25
Speaker 7: have another bucket of coffee and I sit down to write.
36:27
Speaker 7: It flows from there.
36:32
Speaker 3: Does the tai chi play a role in the writing
36:35
Speaker 3: or is that just.
36:37
Speaker 7: Yes to some degree. You know, I'm always doing some
36:41
Speaker 7: martial art over all these years, and I'm always learning,
36:45
Speaker 7: and it's always stuff I can I can use in.
36:48
Speaker 2: The books, so it works.
36:50
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to ask you guys another question. This
36:53
Speaker 3: is not unlike the first one, but I know you
36:55
Speaker 3: can think of something to say. So you've done seventeen books,
37:00
Speaker 3: swill Julia at least three. What are you up to now?
37:05
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm met to five. I had five. I had
37:08
Speaker 2: published two mystery novels in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen,
37:12
Speaker 2: and then I took off a little time and thought,
37:15
Speaker 2: I think that mystery wasn't my field, so I ended
37:20
Speaker 2: up connecting in the historical fiction.
37:24
Speaker 3: Well, that feeds right into my question because I was
37:26
Speaker 3: about to ask, what have you learned during your writing journey?
37:30
Speaker 3: What are the lessons you know? Tell all so that
37:34
Speaker 3: I was going to avoid making the mistakes. And I
37:36
Speaker 3: think that's what you were kind of saying, isn't it.
37:40
Speaker 2: I did something kind of crazy. I applied to and
37:45
Speaker 2: got into the Yale Writer's Workshop in twenty nineteen. And
37:49
Speaker 2: I had already published two mysteries that were critically acclaimed
37:53
Speaker 2: but didn't sell, and you know, just didn't satisfy that
37:58
Speaker 2: need that I had to And I ended up finding
38:02
Speaker 2: out all my flaws of everything that I needed to
38:07
Speaker 2: work on when I was at Yale, So that was
38:09
Speaker 2: really fun. I did the summer session, and when I
38:13
Speaker 2: came home, he'd had us writing our writing coach. He'd
38:17
Speaker 2: had us writing so many different types of writing that
38:20
Speaker 2: I wasn't even sure what I wanted to write. So
38:22
Speaker 2: I just pulled out my favorite books and realized the
38:25
Speaker 2: things that I loved most are historical fiction. And so yeah,
38:30
Speaker 2: I just that was a great starting place for me.
38:33
Speaker 3: Write what you love, right or as they say, and
38:36
Speaker 3: happily we roll along. Don't write what you know, write
38:41
Speaker 3: what you know you know. You totally still that from
38:44
Speaker 3: Stephen Sondheim. But anyway, well, how about you over the
38:51
Speaker 3: course of seventeen books. What are lessons you've learned?
38:56
Speaker 7: Keep learning? I constantly figure out what the next book
39:00
Speaker 7: is is going to be about, and you know, I
39:03
Speaker 7: have to come up with new things every time. I
39:06
Speaker 7: don't like the whole regurgitating the same stuff that you've
39:09
Speaker 7: been doing over and over again. And I've gotten, you know,
39:15
Speaker 7: inspiration from so many different things that don't have to
39:17
Speaker 7: do with mystery or don't have to do Victorian England,
39:20
Speaker 7: and it was able to put those into the book
39:23
Speaker 7: and see what's in the mix. It's like cooking, you know,
39:26
Speaker 7: you toss the carrots in, you you know, toss this in, ooh,
39:29
Speaker 7: a little chocolate or something like that, crazy that you
39:32
Speaker 7: wouldn't normally think of, and it works out.
39:36
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
39:38
Speaker 2: I know you both will know what I mean when
39:41
Speaker 2: I say this, But getting to read Will's books before
39:44
Speaker 2: they are ever really a book, isn't it a delight?
39:48
Speaker 2: It's like you're in on the most delicious surprise when
39:50
Speaker 2: you read each other's writing and you're shocked at where
39:53
Speaker 2: they took it this time. And I feel like I'm
39:56
Speaker 2: still surprised and excited by where Will's going with his book,
40:00
Speaker 2: and he's I know he's been surprised at some of
40:02
Speaker 2: the things I've done. I know you two have gone
40:05
Speaker 2: through that as well.
40:07
Speaker 6: I don't have to I don't have a secret anymore.
40:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say, here's the mysterious mister
40:16
Speaker 3: Kay and the Daniel Pike series. I dragged that out
40:18
Speaker 3: for six books only she.
40:20
Speaker 2: Knew, so she knew, and I knew.
40:24
Speaker 5: I knew what the next book now, I mean the
40:27
Speaker 5: Superman Wars is being released in April.
40:29
Speaker 6: Now I don't have to keep it a secret.
40:30
Speaker 5: But for a long time I had read it and
40:32
Speaker 5: I knew it was great, and he was being very
40:35
Speaker 5: coy about what was coming up next. He couldn't announce
40:39
Speaker 5: it until it was, you know, done deal and the
40:41
Speaker 5: publisher had done their things.
40:43
Speaker 6: So yeah, sometimes it's hard to be quiet.
40:47
Speaker 7: You've probably done this before. It's it's like, hey, is
40:50
Speaker 7: this supposed to be me in this book?
40:55
Speaker 4: Yeah?
40:55
Speaker 3: Except in this In my case, I am positively certain
40:59
Speaker 3: that I am in that series. Maybe that's just you know,
41:04
Speaker 3: like you're so vain, you probably think this song is
41:07
Speaker 3: about you, it's me. One last question for both of you,
41:13
Speaker 3: what next? What can we expect to see coming from you? Guys,
41:18
Speaker 3: next will what about you?
41:20
Speaker 7: This next book I've got is well, we'll begin this
41:26
Speaker 7: way back when I was writing the first book, there
41:29
Speaker 7: was a site on the connected to the Scotland Yard,
41:35
Speaker 7: the website, and it had a list of events that
41:39
Speaker 7: occurred in Victorian England, you know, all the way up
41:42
Speaker 7: to the present day. And I'm still using things out
41:47
Speaker 7: of that thing that's not you know, twenty years ago.
41:50
Speaker 7: I'm still getting things out. And the one I'm writing
41:52
Speaker 7: about now is an unknown thing in history anymore, which
41:57
Speaker 7: was that Sun Yat Sen in you know, the Chinese
42:02
Speaker 7: guy who you know, it was the one who uh
42:05
Speaker 7: you know changed the government, you know, from being a
42:08
Speaker 7: monarchy to to being you know, their new form of government.
42:13
Speaker 7: Uh was in London and he got kidnapped by the
42:17
Speaker 7: Chinese embassy and was kept in it, uh a prison
42:22
Speaker 7: cell for several weeks before he was finally freed by
42:28
Speaker 7: you know, government officials that were bugged by the reporters
42:32
Speaker 7: you know at that time. Is like a little unknown history,
42:37
Speaker 7: you know, buried in this book from you know, you know,
42:41
Speaker 7: this website. And I started that and I just ran
42:45
Speaker 7: with it from there on, and it was just amazing
42:48
Speaker 7: that that it turned out like it did.
42:51
Speaker 3: Julia, how about you.
42:53
Speaker 2: I'm doing research right now on my fourth historical novel,
42:56
Speaker 2: and this one also will be set in the nineteen sixties,
43:01
Speaker 2: so I'm really excited about that time period.
43:05
Speaker 3: Sounds fantastic. Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Hey,
43:11
Speaker 3: let's not wait another two hundred episodes before we do
43:14
Speaker 3: this second.
43:15
Speaker 2: Absolutely great to see you both.
43:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, good to see you too.
43:21
Speaker 7: Bye bye, Now we'll see you in person.
43:35
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. I'm going to focus on
43:38
Speaker 3: the writer con cruise in part because I'm currently cold
43:42
Speaker 3: and it won't be on the cruise. It's cold outside,
43:47
Speaker 3: it's gold inside. It's just cold, and I'm tired of it.
43:50
Speaker 3: I mean, we had fun in Alaska last year on
43:53
Speaker 3: the cruise, well earlier this year and last cruise, and
43:59
Speaker 3: it was it was Holland America, which I really like.
44:02
Speaker 3: So we're going to stick with that cruise line. But
44:04
Speaker 3: this time we're doing Eastern Caribbean, which we haven't done before.
44:08
Speaker 3: Lots of fun islands and whatnot. I've never been to
44:12
Speaker 3: leaves from Fort Lauderdale for eight days, so beautiful beaches,
44:18
Speaker 3: but most importantly over twenty hours of writing instruction from
44:22
Speaker 3: Laura and Me and Betsy Kolakowski, author of I'm Going
44:28
Speaker 3: to Guess Ten Wonderful Books and she's been on the
44:31
Speaker 3: podcast before. We'll be there, plus an onboard agent, Catherine
44:35
Speaker 3: San's terrific agent who's sold lots of books, including.
44:39
Speaker 4: Two for me.
44:40
Speaker 3: So and she will be happy to speak to every
44:43
Speaker 3: person on the cruise, so don't miss out. Plan to
44:46
Speaker 3: be with us. It's March seventh, do through fifteenth, and
44:51
Speaker 3: visit the writer Con website for more information. That's writer Con,
44:55
Speaker 3: as you probably guess wr E R coo N dot com.
45:02
Speaker 3: All right, until next time, keep writing and remember you
45:07
Speaker 3: cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you next time,