Latest / "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers" / Layers Of Pain: Secondary Losses with Denise Torgerson

Transcript

Layers Of Pain: Secondary Losses with Denise Torgerson · "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers"

0:15
SPEAKER_02: You are listening to What's Next?
0:18
SPEAKER_02: Conversations with Boomers.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Barb Damaray, your host.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: We've had many episodes on different aspects of grief.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: In fact, we had one not too long ago talking about ambiguous loss and what that is and how we grieve that and so on.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: We had Denise Torgeson on then, and we have Denise back because I have actually given her a title.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: She is our resident, she is our resident grief coach.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Denise can talk on a broad spectrum of topics, but she is an expert on grief.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: And Denise actually suggested this topic, and I thought it was a great one.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: Today we're going to talk about secondary losses.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: So we know those of us that have gone through death, there's a whole grieving process.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: People go through divorce, people go through the end of relationships.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: With those losses come other losses that we often don't talk about and we don't think about, but they're significant.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: So, Denise, a warm welcome back to you.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Resident grief coach.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: I can do that.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Do you accept that title?
1:37
SPEAKER_02: I did, I did run it by you first.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: We just that's all right.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay, first of all, why don't you explain the what is meant by secondary loss?
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: So the easiest way to say it is it's the losses that happen because of the loss.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: So you have a primary loss.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: My go-to is generally death, because that's kind of where I was schooled, but it doesn't have to be death, any kind of loss.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: And then there's all sorts of things that happen because of the primary loss.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: And the thing about secondary losses is that what happens is everything gets in my mind, the visual is just this big knot, you know, this great big string all knotted together.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Everything just gets kind of a mess.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: And we know we're feeling a whole bunch of stuff, but we don't know what it is.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: So understanding that secondary losses are an important part of our grieving process and giving ourselves permission to look at those and name them helps to kind of clear the mess up a little bit.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people don't talk about them and they're significant.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not talked about very much at all, actually, to my knowledge, not talked about.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: We touched on it when we did our grief support programs, you know, we wouldn't touch on it, but it was, I think it it deserves at least the podcast.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about what are some of those losses.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: I know when I lost my husband in 2017, suddenly I was no longer a wife.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: And that really hit hard.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: Like I've lost my my wife status that I had for nearly 33 years.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: So what what else, Denise?
3:23
SPEAKER_02: What are the other kinds of losses, the secondary losses that we experience?
3:27
SPEAKER_01: I have a list.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give you a list.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's hear let's hear the list.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Loss of income, loss of your support system, loss of financial security, loss of a feeling of security, even not financially, intangible losses, like loss of confidence.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: I used to say, My God, and I feel so inadequate right now.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, but loss of confidence, loss of faith.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Often people question their faith when they're going through a big transition.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Loss of dreams for the future, right?
4:01
SPEAKER_01: My life isn't what I thought it was gonna be.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Loss of identity, right?
4:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a wife anymore.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: What is my role now?
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Who am I now?
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Loss of your own health.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Grief affects us physically.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: So loss of your own health is a big one.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Daily routines, your everything changes, right?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: How you eat, where you sit, what you read, what you talk about, not belonging anymore, not belonging in the way you used to.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: That's a big loss.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: So those are some, and I'm sure there are more, but those are some.
4:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm just so glad we're shedding light on this because those are significant losses.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: And all those things that you listed for all of us that have experienced loss of any, and I would say also for divorce, the financial aspect of it.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: Friends, sometimes you lose friends.
4:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, what you eat, the way you eat, where you eat.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, suddenly I was eating on the coat.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: We never eat on the coach.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: So many things.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: I know just after Serge died, one of his sons, because we we raised his twin deaf sons together, said, you know what I've realized?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: That one of the biggest things, I think he even said the biggest thing around all of this is change.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: So much has changed.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: So much has changed, right?
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Often people don't think of it as a loss, they think of it as a challenge.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, and and sometimes things are challenged.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm all for that.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm all for, you know, the mindset thing.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: But to acknowledge the loss, I think is an important part of accepting the challenge, right?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: It requires so much energy to grieve.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: And when we don't let it flow, just it requires more.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: We struggle with the struggle, right?
5:51
SPEAKER_02: We struggle with the struggle.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: And also just the loss of a loved one, the death of a loved one is so, so profound that all these other losses that go along with it adds to the stress, adds to the you know, the adjustment that's required and the grieving of losing, you know, lots of times it's friends.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: My friends don't call me anymore, or I'm not part of a couple anymore.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I'm not part of the group anymore.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my best friend didn't call me, right?
6:23
SPEAKER_01: My best friend didn't call me.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: That's very common.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: People who you think will show up for you don't, and people who you don't even know will, you know what I mean?
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So there's a a shift of well, the support system, yeah.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: You do find out who's there for you.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: So, how do we manage all of that?
6:43
SPEAKER_01: So, there's not a lot of research or information out there about how to manage these things, but I'll I'll just say taking an inventory, like even just the areas of life that I talked about, just journaling or just writing lists of how this particular loss, losing uh, we'll talk about death, losing this person has affected your income.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: How has losing this person affected your relationships?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: How is this losing this person affected your sense of self, your own sense of identity?
7:14
SPEAKER_01: How has it affected how you show up in the community?
7:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, lots of people are, you know, they're they belong to clubs, but that person was the reason they belonged to that club.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: So social circles are gone now.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so taking an inventory of that, acknowledging it, calling it what it is, you know, it's a challenge, but it's also a loss.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: It's grieving, you know, and giving yourself permission to feel the things that show up because of that, and finding people that do support you and will acknowledge that these things are part of your grieving process.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Lots of times people think of grief as an event.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: This one event happened, right?
7:52
SPEAKER_01: This one thing happened, but it's often a series of events.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Like even years later, with my sister, I remember thinking, oh, yeah, no, I don't do that anymore because she's not here anymore.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, but it years later I realized that.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: So it's ongoing.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: It is ongoing.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, I lost my closest and dearest friend three years ago.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: We were had been friends since 1963, and it was recently our high school reunion, and uh, you know, Denise, I couldn't go because we would have gone there together.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Wow, there was only one other that I went to, that was our 15-year, and Deb and I went together, and everybody knew us as a team.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was Barb and Dad, Barb and Dab, Barb and Dad all the time, and I just couldn't bring myself to walk in there by myself.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: And it was only much later as the reunion got closer, I imagined me walking in there alone and just filling the void so profoundly.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: And also, I knew a lot of people didn't know that she had died and I was gonna have to explain it.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And I just I can't do it, I just can't.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fair, and at the same time, disappointing, right?
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: So talk more about when you lost your sister or when you've experienced other losses and the secondary losses that went along with that.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Personally, yeah.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about that today.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: How to what did I want to talk about in in regards to that?
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Mostly for me, I think just generically, the things that I notice most are the loss of people, the loss of people because of the loss of the person.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: So how my social systems have changed, how I rely on people for support, those people weren't there.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mostly people.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Even in retirement, that's a loss too.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Although, yay, I'm retired, but it's still a loss, right?
9:55
SPEAKER_01: And what I'm point what I miss mostly are the people like that, the social environment.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: I've always been someone that relies on work to create a social environment for me.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: So I miss that.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: I consider that a loss.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, but again, it's always and in both.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm aware of and grieve that loss, and I'm really happy that I'm retired.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: So one doesn't diminish the other, right?
10:20
SPEAKER_01: The grief doesn't diminish the gain.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Completely.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: So I how about you?
10:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, losing my husband meant so many losses, and and you know, ones that I've already mentioned, my loss of status.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: And also the family unit really changed because after Serge's death, none of us, none of us, meaning my two kids and I, saw much of Serge's sons.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we were all a family, you know, Christmas was we're together and birthdays and all of those things we did together.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: And suddenly that just faded away.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, the dynamic really changed a lot.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: And I I remember this was also with Deb.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: She and she and her husband came to visit shortly after Serge died, and then we were all going back to her brothers for dinner.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And I never forget, I felt like I was missing my arm.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Like there's something missing here.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: It's just so odd that I'm, you know, going with them as a single person.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: That was really hard to adjust to.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: And I miss the connection to his work because, you know, for decades, Christmas parties and various things, you know, sometimes his workplace they had an event in the summer.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: And of course, Serge used to talk about his work all the time and what certain people were doing, and blah, blah, blah.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: And suddenly that's all gone.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't have that connection anymore at all.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: Conversations change.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: Conversations change.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm no longer a we, it's an I.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: That was a big adjustment.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: That was a big change.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: We're going to do this, we're going to do that.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: I thought we'd have such and such for dinner.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not a we anymore.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm an I, a me.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: And I would say it's a different kind of loss, but people that go through divorce experience very much the same thing.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think probably the financial impact is even greater with divorce.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, yeah.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: I I mean, in my case, it was, you know, I was completely fine, but that's not always the case.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: And certainly if the person was still working and suddenly that income isn't coming in anymore.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, divorce.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I listened to uh interviewed snippet of a woman talking about when a person loses a child and the financial impact of that, because the our society says you can have three days off with pay, but then you have to come back to work.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: I know I've never met a mother or father who is ready to come back to work after three days losing a child, right?
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So, but that income, that fear of losing that income adds to the stress because you're not going to show up full on for your job.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: So if you know, what if you lose your job, or what if you purposes change?
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you don't want to have your job anymore.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: So what does that look like, right?
13:22
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be directly because my wife or my husband died.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Financial impact happens because we're grieving and our capacity to hold that grief and go into the world and function.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: You know, and that really varies from person to person, you know, how they deal with it and the weight of it.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And if you're somebody that never did have a support group, oh my goodness.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: I was very lucky that I had, you know, I've always had a large circle of friends and that saved me, basically.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: It saved me, you know, just kept me afloat.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: But not everybody has that.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I talked to a friend of mine, her very best friend, her very, very, very best friend for years and years and years.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: When my friend's brother died, I think it was her brother who died, her very best friend treated it like, you know, oh well.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: So she she doesn't speak to her anymore.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she was devastated by that.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: There's people that literally don't know what to say, don't know how to handle it.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, for sure.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: No question.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can't really hold that against people, but sometimes the way to handle it is to show up.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: Say, I don't know how to handle this, but I'm here.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Just be honest about it.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what to say, but I'm here.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that's all you need.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: Somebody that you can trust and you feel safe with just to be present.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: We sort of skipped over, but I think it's worth going back and talking about identity and the loss of confidence and how that sort of seeps through every aspect of your life, you know.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people go through that when they're grieving because they are used to being able to control their life.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: They're used to being able to control and regulate their emotions.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the emotions they just show up.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So, am I gonna be able to go to the grocery store and not fall apart today?
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I feel like as we talk about it, we're kind of untangling this big ball of yarn, this big knot, you know.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: When we understand what we're doing, then we can do it.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, no, I do.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: I experience a lot of secondary losses.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that explains why I'm so tired, or that explains why I'm short of temper, or you know, my energy is going to this, but I didn't know this was a thing that's called secondary losses.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I think it's helpful.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it always helps to put a name to something, doesn't it?
15:56
SPEAKER_02: This is what your experience.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: This actually has a name.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Secondary loss.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, and you know, when as you were talking, I was I was thinking about there's some couples where one person in the couple controls so much of their lives, controls all the finances, controls the whole social life, controls, you know, what home renovations are going to get done, everything.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: And what happens when that person goes?
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think about that when I, you know, couples that I might know, where one person is the dominant, I don't want to say the dominant controller, but the manager, he's the house manager, does everything.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in many ways, Serge, he planned all our trips, and I let him because he loved doing it.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: But I planned lots of other things.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: But I remember the first time that I went to the airport by myself, I think it was the first time I was I took a trip with Claire.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: And of course, I was here and she was in Toronto, so I had to go to the airport, and it just felt so odd.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Right being at the airport without him.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Because, yes, that was an area.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, for one thing, he absolutely loved airports and airplanes, but he just took charge of all of that.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: He just, you know, he had all the forms, everything.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he even took charge of the passports and all that stuff.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: So that is a huge, huge change when suddenly you're in charge of all those things.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: I remember once I was uh facilitating a group and a woman came in.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I think she was in her 80s, her husband died, and she you people were talking about how their life is so different.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: She said, I didn't know how to use a key.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: I had to learn how to use the key.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Use the key.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: So her husband took care of literally everything.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: And she lived out in the country, so they probably never locked their house, anyways.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: But now she's moved into the the town to be closer to her kids.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she didn't know how to use a key.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: So, well, let that be a lesson to people.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Learn how to do a few things, don't let somebody else take over absolutely everything because we're a lot more capable than we think we are.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, you know, you might find, gee, I I I actually do know how to use a key.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's lots of things I can do them, but that Serge would look after it.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: I not that I can't, but I just I don't like it.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do it.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, it's been nine years, so I'm I've caught on.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: But I still very much feel the change.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm invited for dinner with two couples in October.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and it's fine.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I I like all the people and and I'll be fine.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: But you know, I'm going as a single person where I wouldn't be.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: And so what does that mean in terms of secondary losses?
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Just to know that, like, I guess you might link that back into the confidence space, right?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: Or the status.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't have my wife's status anymore.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And so what does that mean in terms of um how I show up and what we talk about?
19:13
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, just talking about it right now, it makes me realize because there are times, I have to admit, the weight of it really is heavy on me.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm alone, you know, I do not have my husband.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: And as I say, I go back to people who are divorced who feel that same sense of loss.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: It's different, the person is still alive, but their life has radically, radically changed.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: And they're dealing with all of those things that you listed.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Belonging, status, finances, security, friends, loss of your future.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: Loss of your future, yes, that is big.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I think, well, this isn't the way it was supposed to be.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: We were gonna grow old together.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, that didn't happen.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, again, people who divorce, it's the same thing.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: I thought it was gonna be till death to us part.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Well, didn't happen.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk a little bit about the self-care aspect of that.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because I think number one, as we've said, to name it, this is a secondary loss, and I'm giving myself permission to grieve those losses.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's the big first step for self-care.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Give yourself permission to feel.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, list them because then you see just how big it is.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, not to overwhelm you, but just to say, oh yeah, this is why I'm depleted.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: My energy is going to all of these things.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So listing them is really important.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: And I really do believe that healing happens when it's witnessed.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: So if there is someone in your world that lots of times people don't understand the scope of the loss, they don't understand that it affects literally everything in your life.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: So to explain to people, this is part of the loss, this is a loss, too.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: So there's more of an understanding of what you're going through.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: So self-care becomes using your community to help you care for yourself and hopefully have them care for you.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Sleep, rest.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: When I retired, I had to learn how to rest.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how to rest.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And every time I go, Oh yeah, no, no, I'm you know, whatever it was I was gonna decide, then I'd hurt my back and I my body just wouldn't let me go.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: I had to learn how to sit still.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: So whatever works for you is how you do your self-care.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: But it's not just getting a massage or getting the pedicure.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's I think self-reflection is really healthy and ensuring that you have people in your world that you can talk to about what you're going through, resting, you know, exercising.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: What works for you?
22:01
SPEAKER_01: I know you you're a big yoga girl.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Self-care and grieving, great self-care.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: You mentioned journaling, and I think that's really big.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we did a whole episode on journaling.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: But for something like this, yes, write it down.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: And even, you know, write a letter to the person that you're missing.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, obviously you don't send it, but and yes, reach out to your friends.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: And people, you know, it's a compliment.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: When somebody reaches out to you, I mean, I know if somebody reaches out to me that I know that need to talk.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm very grateful that that person chose me, that they feel safe enough to talk to me.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I used to used to, I still say it, but often in my doing the work that I did at hospice, I would thank people, you know, thank you for trusting me.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for trusting me.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: And it is, it is trust.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: The vulnerability that comes with sharing your pain.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: You have to trust the person you're doing with, for sure.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: And also you mentioned, okay, yeah, going for a massage is good, but self-care requires day-to-day habits.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Pour yourself an extra cup of coffee if you feel like it.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Sit down if you feel like it.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: And then the other part of that is to acknowledge the goodness that you see.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: So this morning my husband said, Man, that was a long day yesterday.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Holy smokes.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: Because we were we're both quite tired from the travel, right?
23:32
SPEAKER_01: It was a long day.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a long day, but gee, that landing was amazing.
23:38
unknown: Yeah.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you can have the grief and also acknowledge what is good about your life.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to be bigger than grand.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: It can be right now I'm talking to you on my computer and looking outside at the beautiful blue sky.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Those things nourish us.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: So that's important.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: And there's always something good.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: There is always something good.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hard to see sometimes, but yes, you're right.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: There is always something good.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you could pick up the phone and phone a friend, I'm grateful that I have a friend I can call, right?
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: There's lots of people, Denise, that have nobody.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Literally nobody.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, loneliness is a big epidemic now.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's serious.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Loneliness creates a lot of stress.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, social media, just our computer use, our phone use has contributed to that hugely.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: We don't live in community as much as we used to.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: So Denise and I both grew up in Prince George.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a very big town, it was a small town, and there was so much community, wasn't there?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: You didn't go out with just a friend.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: You went out with a friend to meet the friends.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Big throngs of children moving from spot to spot to spot.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Outplaying, running around, yeah, safe.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Very different world.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Very, very, very different.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Such a different world.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: And all our moms were home mostly.
25:03
SPEAKER_02: And so they were all friends.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: And gosh, makes us realize, Denise, how old we are.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: This is this is a world that our kids can't even relate to.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: When my daughter was little, we lived with Ambrose's mom.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: So my daughter grew up living with grandma.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: So that it had good things and bad things.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: But what was really good about it was it was Sarah sitting at the table listening to grandma and Mrs.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Kastriba talking while they were making homemade progies.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Or Mrs.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Perry coming over and bringing the dog, or Evelyn dropping by with some donuts, or like Sarah had this great big community of elder women.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Like wow.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And so my daughter moves through the world differently than a lot of kids because she she sees the value in age.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to say it right, but her respect for elders is not pretend.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not because it has to be, it's because she knows that they're worthy.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how else to say that.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but she was really lucky to have that three generations of people loving her, you know.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: And just to bring it back to our topic, when you have community, everything is softened a little bit.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Everything is is a little bit easier, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_02: No matter what it is you're going through.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: And we've lost so much of community.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't a big deal to get community together.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: You just knocked on somebody's door, right?
26:38
SPEAKER_02: There was just people around all the time.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And people would drop in.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: Now, how many when was the last time somebody dropped in on you?
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Or that I dropped in on somebody else.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's just we don't do it.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: It's always planned.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm talking to somebody right now on text, and they're asking permission to phone me.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's another thing because you everybody's got their phone with them.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: So I sometimes will do that because I don't want to know you're sitting in a meeting or you're in a change room or you're whatever, you're, you know, we didn't have to do that before.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And now, you know, when you have community losses, not that they're not profound, they are, and they're sad and we grieve, but it lightens the load when we have a trusting, close community.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: We have to start building those communities again.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to say about that.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know if it'll ever happen.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my son said to me not too long ago, I guess I said I was in the area and I thought that I would pop in for a minute.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And he said, please don't come unannounced.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: So I said, Okay, okay.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: And then I said, I don't really want anybody to come to my house unannounced either, because it, you know, like I don't know, maybe that maybe the house is a mess or something.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Then I thought afterwards, what am I talking about?
28:09
SPEAKER_02: Drop in.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: I think it would be great, but it's not their norm at all.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: And I'm there, I'm his mother.
28:17
unknown: Please don't come unannounced.
28:20
unknown: Okay.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I will respect that.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Very different.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Changing the subject, going back sort of to the grief piece, but I think the world is grieving the loss of our world.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Geopolitically, so many things are different.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: And I I don't want to get into the politics conversation.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: I just want to say that there are so many things that are so different now.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Like we grieve the loss of that certainty of that.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: All of the certainty is gone, I think.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Life is unpredictable, but I think before the world unraveled as it has, it wasn't so unpredictable.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you agree?
29:00
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: I was in Ottawa over on September 11th.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh yeah, the day the world changed.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And then we started talking about that, just how like in the 90s we thought everything was just gonna get better.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: And then 911 happened, and they didn't.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: No, they didn't get better, and they continue to be sort of balkers.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: So I agree with that.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know my French teacher told me that when 9-11 happened, he said it changed my entire life, you know, and he was in France.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: Who would have ever all these things are connected, they really are.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to talk so much about community, but it just had me thinking about how much community helps us to heal and helps us to get through things.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, you've heard of the blue zones where people live the longest.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: One of the blue zones is Sardinia in Italy.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that, you know, the author of the blue zones puts his name, Dan, I can't remember, is that people live in community, and that contributes to longevity.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: They do everything together.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: So obviously, those people he's been studying this a long time, and all of those people have gone through deaths and I bet there's not a lot of divorces, but I don't know.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: But you know, death happens, even though they're living to 102, they still die.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: They still die, but they're there for each other, they're in community.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay, are there ways that we can embrace the change that come with secondary losses?
30:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the word embrace might be too strong for some people that are going through secondary losses right now, but we can certainly accept that there are secondary losses and we can acknowledge, and in that we can find ways to be gentle with ourselves, you know, to give ourselves permission to feel what we have to feel.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: I embrace it.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, that seems too positive.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: When you're in grief, nobody wants don't tell me to embrace this pain.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: Don't tell me to embrace anything.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: But I will tell you that, and I'm sure that you experience this.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: I think every married does.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: There's certain things when you're in a couple, you compromise a lot.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: There's certain things you don't do because the other person doesn't like doing them, or there's certain things that you do because you're supporting your partner because they like to have roast beef on Sunday or whatever it is.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: We make a lot of adjustments.
31:40
SPEAKER_02: And I realize, and I'm not the only one, I'm sure, that there were pieces of me that I shelved during my marriage because it wasn't part of who Serge was.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I was able to say, okay, he's gone.
31:59
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing I can do about that.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: As well, I have more freedom to express more of myself, and I don't need permission.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: I just can.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: And you sort of rediscover parts of yourself that you put aside.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's people that I used to ski all the time, but such and such doesn't, so I don't anymore.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Or I used to do this all the time.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: And you know, it goes both ways.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with that.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: And that goes back to the end in folks.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm grieving end, and one doesn't diminish the other.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: So, and I appreciate you are an embracer, Barbie.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: So those words are comfortable for you to embrace.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, I'm doing this again.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people, there would be more discomfort than you experience.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's why I soften the word, right?
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, well, I think you're wise too, because I get your point for sure.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: I guess I, you know, I've always been somebody that was able to, okay, I don't have this, or I don't have this, or this is gone, or that's gone.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: But what do I have?
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: I do have this and this and this.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: And now I have more freedom to do ABC.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's fantastic.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: That's marvelous.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's two sides of the same coin, I think, right?
33:18
SPEAKER_01: To say that, you know, I've had this loss.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And often in a loss, there are gains, you know.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm talking to my son more than I ever have in my life.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Or, oh, I've joined this new church, or oh, I've got some new girlfriends that I'm hanging with, or you know, what whatever it is.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Often with a loss, there are gains.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Depending on where you are in your loss, that conversation is really hard to have.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: So the word embrace for a lot of people who are grieving, that would sort of shut them down, right?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: But to understand that is an end in both, that I can be this and this at the same time.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: I probably couldn't have used the word embrace like in the first few months, that's for sure.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: But you can eventually get to a point where you realize, as you say, there are gains for sure.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: And again, that goes also for people that are going through divorce or you know, the end of a long-term relationship.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Or people that have retired, or people that retired, yes, yes.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, illness, right?
34:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people who have cancer.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's certainly life-changing.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: There's a huge grief piece with that.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: And lots of people will say, That's when I woke up.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, holding both.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: You can it can be both at the same time.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: I love how you emphasize that, Denise.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I I don't think people give themselves permission to do that.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, we define ourselves as this, but it's hard to remember that we can do both.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: Even when it's things in opposition of each other, they can still we can carry them both equally.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think we're coming to the end.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Any any final thoughts on this?
35:05
SPEAKER_02: Such a great topic.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I don't think so.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: I think just to reiterate, it's something that's not talked about, it's not often recognized.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think that by recognizing it, it can help to untangle some grief stuff that perhaps you weren't understanding.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Just a new understanding, a different piece, different layer.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Denise.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: As always, always are oh, it certainly is for me.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: You add so much to the podcast, and people love listening to you.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: So thanks again, and uh, we'll talk soon.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: We will.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: This episode was written and recorded by Barb Demaray, edited and produced by Aidan Glassy.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: As always, special thanks to our guests for making it possible.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed and you'd like to hear more, follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: You can also follow the show on YouTube at what's next.convos with boomers.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.