Latest / Inside Politics / Tim Wilson on Hastie's exit, and bringing back that 'big Liberal energy'

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Tim Wilson on Hastie's exit, and bringing back that 'big Liberal energy' · Inside Politics

• 0:04
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
• 0:06
  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This week I'm
• 0:14
  S1: in Canberra, which is always exciting. And so Paul and
• 0:16
  S1: I are actually in the studio together for a change,
• 0:19
  S1: and we have a very special guest with us, the
• 0:21
  S1: member for Goldstein, Tim Wilson. We've entrapped Tim on a
• 0:25
  S1: very interesting week during a very interesting time for the
• 0:28
  S1: Liberal Party to go with the famous euphemism. Last week,
• 0:32
  S1: Home affairs spokesman Andrew Hastie quit the frontbench, and this
• 0:35
  S1: week there's been a lot of infighting and internal leaking
• 0:38
  S1: in the aftermath. So I want to welcome our chief
• 0:41
  S1: political correspondent, Paul Chuckle, as usual. And Tim Wilson, our
• 0:44
  S1: special guest are from Goldstein.
• 0:47
  S2: Well, thank you very much. Thanks very much for having me.
• 0:49
  S1: Tim. A very hearty welcome, and we're excited to have
• 0:52
  S1: you on. But in the interest of full disclosure, we
• 0:55
  S1: did actually have Andrew Hastie invited and booked to be
• 0:58
  S1: our guest this week. Um, he pulled out a few
• 1:01
  S1: days ago, saying that he sort of didn't want to
• 1:03
  S1: draw too much attention to himself with the long form interview.
• 1:06
  S1: I guess he wanted to keep a low profile after
• 1:08
  S1: having a very high profile for a few weeks there.
• 1:11
  S1: Just tell our listeners, what do you make of Hastie's
• 1:14
  S1: departure and the very evident conflict that's playing out within
• 1:18
  S1: the Liberal Party at the moment?
• 1:19
  S2: So you're saying I'm the Steven Bradbury of this interview? Look, you.
• 1:23
  S1: Were saying you're a very, very adequate and welcome substitute.
• 1:28
  S2: Well, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. So, well,
• 1:32
  S2: obviously what's happened in the past couple of weeks is
• 1:34
  S2: Andrews decided to step back from the frontbench. Most people
• 1:36
  S2: chomp at the bits to get on the frontbench when
• 1:39
  S2: they're in Parliament. He's chosen to voluntarily take a step back. Uh,
• 1:44
  S2: you know, on his words, he said it's over an
• 1:46
  S2: issue around, um, his carriage over immigration as part of
• 1:49
  S2: the Home Affairs portfolio. Um, but really, I think it's
• 1:53
  S2: fair to say what Andrew has done is he's gone
• 1:55
  S2: out and said he has a bigger agenda that he
• 1:57
  S2: wants to prosecute and doesn't want to be bound by
• 2:00
  S2: shadow Cabinet solidarity, which is, you know, broadly, the principle
• 2:04
  S2: that if you're a member of the shadow cabinet, if
• 2:05
  S2: it makes the decision that you have to back that in,
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  S2: that's the same on Liberal and Labour sides, because, um,
• 2:12
  S2: if you want people to support what you're going to do,
• 2:13
  S2: you have to support others in what they're going to do.
• 2:15
  S2: And he just wants to be unshackled by that and
• 2:17
  S2: go and say what he wants. So now we're all
• 2:20
  S2: waiting with patient breath to see what it is that
• 2:22
  S2: he wants to say.
• 2:23
  S1: And how has that gone down internally within the party?
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  S1: I mean, do you see that as a noble move,
• 2:27
  S1: that he's done the right thing by his colleagues because
• 2:29
  S1: he could have done it in a little sort of
• 2:32
  S1: quieter way or in a more gracious way, couldn't he?
• 2:34
  S3: Mary Aldridge made that point in party room. Right. This
• 2:36
  S3: wasn't a thing that she respected in terms of the
• 2:38
  S3: way he went about it. Do you share that view?
• 2:41
  S2: I think the the I think what's become evident to
• 2:44
  S2: me is that he probably shouldn't have joined Shadow Cabinet
• 2:48
  S2: in the first place, because I think this has been
• 2:50
  S2: going on for longer than just the past couple of weeks.
• 2:53
  S2: And I don't say that as a as a criticism.
• 2:55
  S2: You know, when I, um, got elected, um, on the
• 2:59
  S2: 3rd of June because the election was made. Three but
• 3:01
  S2: I wasn't actually declared until 3rd June. I didn't automatically
• 3:04
  S2: jump at the idea of going into the shadow Cabinet myself,
• 3:07
  S2: because you have to go through a process, particularly after
• 3:10
  S2: a feat like that, of what's your role and what
• 3:12
  S2: contribution do you have to make and what's the direction
• 3:14
  S2: of the party. And, you know, it took a while
• 3:17
  S2: for me to be convinced to go into the shadow cabinet,
• 3:20
  S2: and that was the best way to prosecute arguments. But
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  S2: the truth is also at this time, the party needs everyone,
• 3:28
  S2: every hand on deck, I think, to sort of pick
• 3:30
  S2: itself up and give people a sense of hope for
• 3:32
  S2: the future. And that's the approach I've taken. So Andrew's
• 3:36
  S2: gone off and made his decision. Uh, the question now is,
• 3:39
  S2: what is he actually going to put forward, um, that
• 3:42
  S2: he wants to prosecute? Because really the approach is taken
• 3:45
  S2: is to say, well, I'm going to go outside of
• 3:48
  S2: the the normal party processes. He's now going to develop
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  S2: something which he's now going to try and essentially remake
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  S2: the priorities of the entire party on. Um, that's a
• 3:58
  S2: very substantial move. Um, and, uh, you know, it's one
• 4:02
  S2: that's fraught with difficulty because there's the world you want.
• 4:05
  S2: There's the world that we live in. And I always
• 4:07
  S2: start with the world we live in. And how do
• 4:08
  S2: we then take that world towards a more liberal vision? Um,
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  S2: rather than starting from the world I want and trying
• 4:15
  S2: to get reality to conform to it.
• 4:17
  S3: Just on your Steven Bradbury point, even if you did
• 4:19
  S3: Steven Bradbury on our last two guests, as we said
• 4:22
  S3: just before the show with the Prime Minister and the
• 4:24
  S3: opposition leader. So you're still an esteemed company? Yeah. That's fine.
• 4:27
  S3: Thanks for coming on.
• 4:28
  S4: They're not nearly as funny as you, Tim. Yeah.
• 4:31
  S3: Don't get too big.
• 4:32
  S4: No.
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  S3: Just on that question. Um, you and him have an
• 4:37
  S3: interesting career trajectory and kind of. You relate to each
• 4:40
  S3: other in an interesting way. Came in in almost the
• 4:42
  S3: exact same time.
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  S2: He came out in 2015, in a by election a.
• 4:45
  S3: Year after similar. Um, similarly big ambitions the two of
• 4:50
  S3: you have. I think it's fair to say without you
• 4:51
  S3: going into that, I don't need to address that. But, um,
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  S3: you've been put forward in some by some commentators as
• 4:57
  S3: a kind of, um, person who is embodies the vision
• 5:01
  S3: on the moderate side of the party. One path of
• 5:03
  S3: the party. Him on the other flank. He's also a
• 5:07
  S3: bit of a lone wolf. He's not from the East coast.
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  S3: He doesn't have the same connections as someone like you
• 5:12
  S3: who's been institutionalized in the party for a long time.
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  S3: How do you relate to him at a personal level?
• 5:16
  S3: And also, what do you make of him as a
• 5:19
  S3: character in the party? How do you locate him? What's
• 5:21
  S3: he like?
• 5:22
  S2: Well, so when I was first elected in 2016, Andrew
• 5:26
  S2: and I were sat next to each other in Parliament
• 5:28
  S2: and we made a conscious choice. And I don't want
• 5:30
  S2: to sort of break confidences, and I don't think I am,
• 5:33
  S2: but we made a very conscious choice that we were
• 5:35
  S2: likely to be in Parliament for a long time together. Obviously,
• 5:37
  S2: I had a three year walkabout, um, whereas he did not, uh, to,
• 5:41
  S2: you know, to make, to get along. And, and I
• 5:43
  S2: have very warm affection for him personally and I do uh,
• 5:46
  S2: and we have at different points traded books and challenged
• 5:49
  S2: our own ideas and, uh, and, uh, you know, I've
• 5:53
  S2: given his kids Christmas presents and those sorts of things.
• 5:55
  S2: So we've actually always had a very warm relationship and
• 5:59
  S2: he's a warm person, but he has, you know, a
• 6:02
  S2: very different background to what I do. He's very security
• 6:04
  S2: focused because of his background, obviously, in the SaaS. Um, he, uh,
• 6:09
  S2: are much more academic. Um, he's studied things like business
• 6:13
  S2: economics more recently. Uh, and so we come at issues
• 6:16
  S2: from different perspectives, but we actually have a lot of
• 6:18
  S2: common ground as well. We're both very focused on national unity,
• 6:21
  S2: what it is we need to build out for the
• 6:23
  S2: future of Australia. I'm probably a bit more retail than
• 6:26
  S2: my politics is, probably a bit more. Um, how would
• 6:29
  S2: you put it? Romantic. I think it'd be fair to
• 6:32
  S2: say so. I think we, um, we actually have a
• 6:34
  S2: really interesting complementarity between the two of us. We sometimes
• 6:38
  S2: end up in the same place with very different views.
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  S2: But of course, there have been debates in the past
• 6:42
  S2: where we unintentionally led to a nationwide boycott of Coopers
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  S2: beer because we talked about the issue of same sex
• 6:49
  S2: marriage over a beer where we both had diametrically opposite views.
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  S2: And so I think we're an interesting pair in that sense,
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  S2: because on a lot of issues, we genuinely do end
• 7:00
  S2: up in the same place. Um, but, you know, he's
• 7:03
  S2: talking about Reindustrialisation. If you go and look at my
• 7:05
  S2: campaign launch speech back on the 29th of March of
• 7:08
  S2: this year, I explicitly talk about reindustrializing the country. He
• 7:12
  S2: said it sort of subsequently, um, and that's not to
• 7:15
  S2: take ownership of it. We actually have very similar views
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  S2: about what we need to do to build the strength
• 7:19
  S2: of this country. Why it matters how we're going to
• 7:22
  S2: do it. But again, how do we best prosecute that?
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  S1: So what you're describing there is basically a platonic ideal of,
• 7:28
  S1: you know, the conservative wing of the Liberal Party and
• 7:31
  S1: the moderate wing or whatever it is that you call
• 7:33
  S1: your sort of wing of the Liberal Party agreeing, disagreeing, respectfully,
• 7:38
  S1: having dialogue across the table. But that is not at
• 7:42
  S1: all the public front of the Liberal Party the last
• 7:44
  S1: few weeks in particular. What the public is seeing is
• 7:47
  S1: division infighting leaking. Jacinta Nampijinpa price, you know, this week
• 7:52
  S1: has called, um, your party, her party a clown show
• 7:56
  S1: or said it's resembled a clown show. I'm not saying
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  S1: any of those things are true, but that is the
• 8:00
  S1: public perception. And I just would like you to sort
• 8:03
  S1: of explain to listeners what you guys are fighting about.
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  S1: What is the existential war that's happening here? Because, you know,
• 8:10
  S1: the ostensible policy points are maybe net zero and immigration.
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  S1: What is that? What it's really about, or is it
• 8:16
  S1: something deeper about the soul of the party?
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  S2: I actually think it's a much bigger conversation about the
• 8:21
  S2: soul of the country, actually.
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  S1: Wow.
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  S4: Okay.
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  S2: Um, and and that's why I want to emphasize the
• 8:27
  S2: points of commonality rather than the points of difference, because
• 8:30
  S2: I think what we've had is gone through a period
• 8:32
  S2: of 30 years where, um, of peace and prosperity, where
• 8:37
  S2: as a nation, we've taken a lot of comfort from
• 8:39
  S2: things like, um, you know, post-Cold War, um, global economic integration.
• 8:45
  S2: We've basically extracted our security dividend as a society. We've
• 8:49
  S2: lived in a period of incredible prosperity. And and in
• 8:52
  S2: many ways it's been, you know, of course, a period
• 8:53
  S2: where we've been able to focus on how do we
• 8:55
  S2: perfect our society, address historical disadvantage and injustices. We haven't
• 8:59
  S2: perfected everything, but now we're going back to a time
• 9:02
  S2: where we need to focus on the majority again, because
• 9:04
  S2: we need to kind of secure the nation. And and
• 9:06
  S2: that's partly, I think, what's motivating some of the things
• 9:09
  S2: that Andrew and others are doing. And so but the
• 9:12
  S2: challenge in politics is always, how do you take people
• 9:14
  S2: with you on that journey? Because the public, I think,
• 9:19
  S2: are looking at our times. They're anxious economically, I think
• 9:22
  S2: in a security sense. Um, and they're anxious, but they
• 9:25
  S2: want to be led through those times, but they want
• 9:28
  S2: a sense of hope and vision for the future. They
• 9:30
  S2: don't want to be led through fear. And I think
• 9:33
  S2: what we need to position towards is a vision that's
• 9:36
  S2: focused on hope, about how we can be the trusted
• 9:40
  S2: partner to walk alongside Australians.
• 9:42
  S1: Is it just an issue of style, though, and messaging
• 9:44
  S1: as you're saying, or are there fundamental kind of policy
• 9:47
  S1: issues or ideological issues and fissures that just can't, can't
• 9:51
  S1: be mended?
• 9:52
  S2: Uh, well, there absolutely are other issues. I'm not trying
• 9:55
  S2: to pretend otherwise, but I do think they can be mended.
• 9:58
  S2: I think that the risk is that we get caught
• 10:01
  S2: taking the bait of our opponents.
• 10:03
  S1: Which.
• 10:03
  S4: Is.
• 10:04
  S2: Well, I think net zero is a classic example of this.
• 10:07
  S2: Labour wants us to be debating this issue. The Greens
• 10:10
  S2: want us to be debating this issue. The teals want
• 10:12
  S2: us to be debating this issue.
• 10:13
  S1: Are you fulfilling their wishes nicely?
• 10:14
  S4: Aren't you?
• 10:15
  S2: Well, well, I can assure you I am not. But
• 10:18
  S2: others are.
• 10:18
  S3: You want to keep net zero, right? Well, in some way,
• 10:20
  S3: shape or form.
• 10:21
  S2: What I want is I want to have a debate
• 10:23
  S2: about how we keep net net zero price increases, net
• 10:27
  S2: zero outages, and also, of course, you know, the trade
• 10:30
  S2: off from that is yeah, I don't really mind if
• 10:32
  S2: we get net zero emissions as part of that. But
• 10:34
  S2: you've got to get the hierarchy right. The problem at
• 10:36
  S2: the moment is the government is put net zero emissions
• 10:39
  S2: above price considerations, national security, everything else. Now I'm not
• 10:43
  S2: trying to run lines that's actually structural.
• 10:45
  S3: But keep the net zero commitment.
• 10:46
  S2: But happily keep that.
• 10:47
  S3: With greater emphasis on other, other priorities.
• 10:49
  S2: So long as we keep it on a more even.
• 10:51
  S4: Keel.
• 10:51
  S1: Hang on. That's not really necessarily keeping the commitment as
• 10:54
  S1: a as a first order priority. You're saying that that's
• 10:56
  S1: the government's first order priority at the expense.
• 10:59
  S4: Of.
• 10:59
  S2: Of everything else? And what I'm saying is it should
• 11:01
  S2: be on an.
• 11:01
  S4: Even.
• 11:02
  S2: Keel with other issues and priorities, because when we're committed
• 11:05
  S2: to net 0 in 2021, emissions were on the same
• 11:09
  S2: level as price, reliability, national security, sovereignty. What labor did
• 11:13
  S2: was they legislated the target and put it above all
• 11:15
  S2: of those other considerations. And that's part of the reason
• 11:18
  S2: why there's a problem.
• 11:19
  S4: But, Tim.
• 11:19
  S1: You're an intelligent person and you've read a lot about
• 11:21
  S1: this stuff. I don't think anyone can credibly say that
• 11:24
  S1: a move to a net zero emissions policy is not
• 11:27
  S1: going to cost anyone any money, nor is the alternative
• 11:30
  S1: of not moving to net zero emissions not going to
• 11:32
  S1: cost anyone any money. It's going to cost us either way.
• 11:36
  S2: There's definitely consequences either way. The idea that if you
• 11:38
  S2: just scrap net zero, we're suddenly going to have cheaper
• 11:40
  S2: prices when people email me.
• 11:42
  S4: Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 11:44
  S2: Because we deal with this every day where people email
• 11:47
  S2: and say scrap net zero and you get this very
• 11:49
  S2: abrupt email and I always reply back and say, what
• 11:52
  S2: do you think will happen if we do it? And
• 11:55
  S2: people's sort of say, well, prices will come down. And
• 11:58
  S2: I say, well, how? Because inevitably what they think is, well,
• 12:01
  S2: suddenly new coal fired power stations will pop up, the
• 12:04
  S2: price of energy will collapse, etc. and it's like, no,
• 12:06
  S2: that's not going to happen. And you step through why
• 12:08
  S2: that won't happen. Um, because this is a problem that's
• 12:11
  S2: been 20 years in the making. It's a problem about
• 12:13
  S2: multi-decade investment around baseload energy generation, which is where we're
• 12:17
  S2: now getting into a very dry topic, but it's one
• 12:19
  S2: that I'm very interested in. But but I'm aware of
• 12:22
  S2: how dry it is. And if it's multiple decades in
• 12:26
  S2: the making, it's going to take a while to turn around.
• 12:28
  S2: But you can still disagree with what the government's doing.
• 12:31
  S2: I think what the government's doing is reckless. Um, and
• 12:34
  S2: they're not sitting the country best up for the future,
• 12:36
  S2: which is one of the reasons I've always been very
• 12:38
  S2: supportive of nuclear. But that will take time, too. I'm
• 12:40
  S2: not arguing with that. So but what we need to
• 12:44
  S2: be doing is focused on what do we need to
• 12:46
  S2: do to get more energy into the grid to get
• 12:48
  S2: prices down? Because if you get prices down, public acceptance
• 12:51
  S2: and social licence around emissions reduction will actually improve. But
• 12:54
  S2: the more prices go up, the more support for emissions
• 12:57
  S2: reduction goes down. And that's actually why the government's got
• 13:00
  S2: the priorities wrong.
• 13:01
  S1: That's actually a really good point.
• 13:03
  S3: Um, I reckon you'll lose your seat if you drop
• 13:06
  S3: net zero entirely. If you went down the hasty route.
• 13:08
  S3: You couldn't win. Goldstein. Right.
• 13:09
  S2: I don't agree with that, but I don't. Um, but equally,
• 13:13
  S2: I think that's a massive hypothetical, um, because I don't
• 13:16
  S2: think we're going to I think where we're going to
• 13:19
  S2: end up is we're going to end up with a
• 13:20
  S2: policy framework which is focused on back to where we were,
• 13:24
  S2: which is a much better sense of balance, which still
• 13:26
  S2: very much contrasts with with Labor's position. But, you know,
• 13:30
  S2: those are things that I'll have to deal with in
• 13:32
  S2: one sense, because Andrew's obviously one of the key persons
• 13:36
  S2: who stood up and made their case against it has
• 13:39
  S2: stepped out. He's free to say whatever he wants. And
• 13:40
  S2: then cabinets or shadow cabinets. Welcome to bind a policy position.
• 13:44
  S1: Are you being a little bit sort of wilfully naive there, though,
• 13:46
  S1: to think that opposition to net zero is just going
• 13:49
  S1: to magically fall away if you guys get the arguments right?
• 13:52
  S2: No, not at all. But I think if you everything's
• 13:55
  S2: is energy. And I don't mean in the energy debate.
• 13:57
  S2: I mean in politics. People's energy. People want to fight
• 14:01
  S2: for something. They want to fight for the future of
• 14:02
  S2: the country. And we need to channel their energy and
• 14:05
  S2: give them pathways to do so. And that's in part
• 14:09
  S2: what's building up at the moment is people are very
• 14:11
  S2: disappointed with the election result. Fair enough, I am too.
• 14:15
  S2: They want a pathway forward where they can fight for
• 14:18
  S2: people to improve the country, and we need to provide
• 14:21
  S2: the outlets for them to do so. What's happening is
• 14:24
  S2: there's a whole bunch of people in the media saying, well,
• 14:26
  S2: the way to do that is to scrap net zero.
• 14:28
  S2: So they're going, okay, fine, we'll pile in behind that. Um,
• 14:31
  S2: we need to find other channels and avenues to pursue
• 14:33
  S2: that conversation.
• 14:34
  S3: Just on the path forward and back to the the
• 14:37
  S3: avenue that Andrew Hastie's charting for you guys. It feels
• 14:41
  S3: like what you're saying is that both sides of the
• 14:43
  S3: party agree that the Howard consensus is over. You need
• 14:45
  S3: to find a new pathway forward to re-energise centre right politics.
• 14:49
  S3: You need something new. On the one hand, you have
• 14:51
  S3: Hastie and Jacinta Price and others looking overseas, understandably looking
• 14:55
  S3: at Trump and Farage and thinking, that looks exciting, that's
• 14:58
  S3: creating a buzz. There is energy there. I find it
• 15:01
  S3: understandable that someone would go down that path. On the
• 15:03
  S3: other side, you have people like Arthur Sinodinos, Amanda Vanstone
• 15:06
  S3: pushing back against that and saying we need to revert
• 15:09
  S3: back to our core ideas. But their arguments sometimes feel
• 15:13
  S3: hollow and beige and there's not. It's not clear what
• 15:15
  S3: their alternative vision is that provides hope and energy. How
• 15:19
  S3: do you make a compelling argument on the other side
• 15:22
  S3: to Hastie and Price and say, this is the path forward,
• 15:25
  S3: while still talking about ideas around culture, national identity, but
• 15:30
  S3: doing it in a way that's palatable?
• 15:31
  S2: I think this is a critical question, actually, because people say, oh,
• 15:35
  S2: you know, you want the party to be more moderate
• 15:38
  S2: or you want the party to be more conservative. Um,
• 15:41
  S2: I don't think the party needs to be more moderate
• 15:45
  S2: nor conservative. I think it needs to be bigger liberal. Um,
• 15:48
  S2: and this is and I and I'll explain what that means,
• 15:51
  S2: because I did this in my campaign where, uh, you know,
• 15:54
  S2: we were proudly, assertively liberal in the sense of offering
• 15:59
  S2: a vision about where we wanted to go and why
• 16:01
  S2: we wanted to go there. And that includes being, um,
• 16:05
  S2: assertive about who we are, not just as a political movement,
• 16:08
  S2: but what we actually want for the country. That's the
• 16:10
  S2: point of of having a vision. And I think, uh,
• 16:13
  S2: that's what's frankly been missing for a long time, and
• 16:16
  S2: certainly in the last, last Parliament, because you get around
• 16:18
  S2: debates around things like migration and we get into this
• 16:21
  S2: debate about, well, now we're going to debate about numbers. Well, actually,
• 16:24
  S2: what liberals should want from new Australians is unity, integration
• 16:30
  S2: and loyalty. The numbers obviously do matter in a technical sense,
• 16:35
  S2: but the extent to which we can do things proportionately
• 16:38
  S2: should be based on can we successfully integrate people for
• 16:40
  S2: their interests and ours? I need to be clear, uh,
• 16:44
  S2: whether they're new, Australians are going to be loyal to
• 16:46
  S2: our country. And you go to any citizenship ceremony. And
• 16:48
  S2: it's very clear that that's what we expect of new Australians. Um,
• 16:52
  S2: and of course, they're going to become full participants in
• 16:55
  S2: the Australian way of life. And I said this in
• 16:57
  S2: my kind of second first speech to the Parliament, when
• 16:59
  S2: I think one of the biggest challenges we have now
• 17:01
  S2: is we don't have a story for our country that
• 17:05
  S2: new Australians can integrate into. When I was growing up, um,
• 17:09
  S2: the way the history of our country was taught was
• 17:13
  S2: kind of from 1788 onwards and until kind of 1988,
• 17:17
  S2: which was, you know, make it great in 88. Uh,
• 17:20
  S2: and then you can kind of tell my age and pedigree.
• 17:22
  S2: But what seems now is we're kind of taught a
• 17:25
  S2: pre 1788 version. Then we kind of skipped to 1958
• 17:28
  S2: and missed the bit in between. That's a bit simplistic,
• 17:30
  S2: but that's kind of how it feels, at least to me.
• 17:32
  S2: Whereas actually, if you want a culturally confident nation and
• 17:36
  S2: I do a united nation and I do, um, it
• 17:40
  S2: doesn't much matter. And Menzies, by the way, the founder
• 17:42
  S2: of my party was very clear on this. You know,
• 17:45
  S2: bring yourselves bring out every part of your personality and
• 17:47
  S2: your history and your culture, your race, your ethnicity. It
• 17:50
  S2: doesn't matter, but make a meaningful contribution, because what people
• 17:53
  S2: want is people going to make an investment. And we
• 17:55
  S2: should be selling that story about people being massive contributors
• 18:00
  S2: to our country.
• 18:01
  S4: So.
• 18:01
  S1: You know, you talked before about the liberal energy and the,
• 18:04
  S1: you know, passionately selling liberal values. So this is this
• 18:06
  S1: is what you're talking about, sort of passionately, proactively making
• 18:10
  S1: this kind of a case in the context of, say,
• 18:11
  S1: a debate about immigration as opposed to talking about so-called
• 18:15
  S1: mass migration, which is a phrase I use very cautiously
• 18:18
  S1: because it's, you know, it's parroting certain, certain sort of
• 18:21
  S1: ideological agenda. Is this the way that you should be
• 18:23
  S1: talking about immigration? Should you also be selling the benefits
• 18:27
  S1: of immigration because particularly to the large constituency of migrants
• 18:33
  S1: or or, you know, people with non-English speaking backgrounds that
• 18:36
  S1: the Liberal Party has kind of lost?
• 18:38
  S2: Well, I look at new Australians and I say, firstly, um,
• 18:43
  S2: we we keep saying we want to be a party
• 18:44
  S2: of aspiration. Yeah, right. So you can't be a party
• 18:47
  S2: of aspiration unless you're on the side of the aspiring.
• 18:50
  S2: So you're on the side of the young and new
• 18:53
  S2: Australians always. You want an open society so they can
• 18:56
  S2: get ahead. Anyone who has come to this country has
• 18:59
  S2: already said, I am going to chance my hand, to
• 19:02
  S2: risk my past, to throw myself into the great vortex
• 19:06
  S2: of a new, unknown world. And that is an energy
• 19:10
  S2: and enthusiasm for which it must be channeled. And then,
• 19:14
  S2: of course, you're naturally more likely to go on and
• 19:17
  S2: make a greater contribution. So, you know, I'm somebody who
• 19:19
  S2: looks at new Australians, go, yep. I'm not keen on
• 19:22
  S2: people giving easy pathways to welfare pathways. I am very
• 19:25
  S2: keen on giving pathways to get people to channel that energy,
• 19:28
  S2: to build small businesses, to be economic contributors, to be
• 19:31
  S2: successful participants in our society. And absolutely, that is what
• 19:35
  S2: we should be seeking to aspire to, because that is
• 19:37
  S2: the lived reality of what it means, I believe, to
• 19:40
  S2: be a liberalist, that spark of aspiration which you've already
• 19:43
  S2: demonstrated by taking that great risk of coming here just quickly.
• 19:48
  S1: You're a bit of a unicorn in Parliament because and
• 19:50
  S1: in the Liberal Party, because you won back a teal
• 19:52
  S1: seat and all the others are kind of gone, and
• 19:54
  S1: they don't look like they're coming back anytime soon. What
• 19:57
  S1: is your advice or what is your sort of, you know,
• 19:59
  S1: the guiding principle? If the Liberal Party wants to win
• 20:02
  S1: back those inner metropolitan seats that have just abandoned them.
• 20:05
  S2: Hope.
• 20:06
  S4: Yeah.
• 20:07
  S2: It sounds trite, but it's.
• 20:09
  S4: It does sound. What what what more.
• 20:11
  S1: Specifically, do you need to focus more on the economy?
• 20:13
  S1: Do you need to talk about immigration? Do you need to,
• 20:15
  S1: you know, make a strong commitment to net zero? What
• 20:17
  S1: is it that those voters want that you gave them?
• 20:21
  S2: So what what I think voters want is they want, um,
• 20:24
  S2: they want someone who they can trust.
• 20:26
  S4: Yeah.
• 20:26
  S2: Um, who's obviously invested in the community, but they can
• 20:29
  S2: trust because I think what the teals do more than
• 20:31
  S2: anything else is they trade on trust, and I think
• 20:33
  S2: they've abused that trust. But we'll they'll obviously disagree with
• 20:37
  S2: me on that. But when you get elected on a
• 20:38
  S2: platform of doing things like saying, you know, you're going
• 20:41
  S2: to scrap fossil fuel subsidies and climate change is the
• 20:43
  S2: most important thing to you, then you vote for $3
• 20:45
  S2: billion of new ones. I think, you know, it's absurd
• 20:48
  S2: that you can then say trust is your central thesis.
• 20:51
  S2: But I think, yes, they want us to focus on
• 20:54
  S2: the economy. But I think what I think, what those
• 20:58
  S2: sort of tearless communities want is I actually think they
• 21:00
  S2: want us to be bigger liberals. I don't think.
• 21:03
  S4: Big.
• 21:04
  S1: Liberal energy.
• 21:04
  S2: Big liberal energy, because they're by their nature. They're aspirational communities. They're, um,
• 21:12
  S2: they're people who have often done well, but what they
• 21:14
  S2: actually want is they want a better future for their kids,
• 21:16
  S2: and they also want a better future for the rest
• 21:18
  S2: of the country. They actually feel a greater sense of
• 21:20
  S2: responsibility for the rest of the country. I always talk
• 21:24
  S2: about Goldstein when I say the rest of the country
• 21:26
  S2: was more like Goldstein. We'd be a better nation now. Yes,
• 21:29
  S2: of course. I'm obviously very fond of the community that
• 21:31
  S2: elected me to Parliament.
• 21:32
  S4: Controversial, but I actually believe.
• 21:34
  S2: It because it's a community of people who care for
• 21:37
  S2: each other, who take responsibility. There is not just big
• 21:40
  S2: liberal energy, but there is big small business and aspiration energy. Uh,
• 21:46
  S2: and the more we instill that across the rest of
• 21:48
  S2: the country, the more you have people who stand on
• 21:50
  S2: their own two feet. And not just that they turn
• 21:52
  S2: around to others and help them stand on their own
• 21:55
  S2: two feet too. And if if liberalism has, liberalism has
• 21:59
  S2: many dimensions to it. But if anything it is it
• 22:04
  S2: is about that sort of mutual dependency and support that
• 22:06
  S2: we give to each other, because that's the strength of
• 22:09
  S2: our country. It doesn't come from kind of Canberra down.
• 22:11
  S2: It comes from families, communities supporting each other and fellow citizens.
• 22:15
  S3: I'm really interested in your comments there on new Australians,
• 22:18
  S3: because you could easily have been substituted, Tony Abbott into
• 22:21
  S3: your seat making similar arguments. It reminded me of his line,
• 22:24
  S3: you know, Team Australia, not Hotel Australia without using terms
• 22:28
  S3: like that. But to me, you are not someone who
• 22:33
  S3: would share the view that some of your colleagues, like
• 22:35
  S3: Andrew Bragg and others repeatedly say, which is we can't
• 22:38
  S3: engage in culture wars. You're interested in those same questions
• 22:41
  S3: of culture. You believe in the one flag argument that
• 22:43
  S3: Andrew Hastie believes in. You're very keen on integration, which
• 22:47
  S3: is a contentious topic among some on the left and
• 22:49
  S3: probably some in your party. Why have you Why have moderates?
• 22:53
  S3: I know you don't like to call yourself a moderate,
• 22:55
  S3: but you're in the. You're on the left of the party.
• 22:57
  S3: Why have you guys seemingly ceded ground on all of
• 23:00
  S3: these questions around culture and national identity to the right
• 23:04
  S3: of your party? Why are you not engaged in the
• 23:06
  S3: fight publicly on these matters? Not not just you, but
• 23:09
  S3: the moderates in your party? Why are you seen to
• 23:11
  S3: be scared to talk about these issues? How do you
• 23:13
  S3: win back that argument?
• 23:16
  S2: Well, I'm not sure that I'm afraid of these arguments
• 23:19
  S2: at all. I've kind of come onto your podcast and.
• 23:22
  S3: But that's the that's the perception. Moderates don't fight.
• 23:24
  S4: That's an I were talking.
• 23:25
  S1: About was, was this, you know, the the right wingers
• 23:29
  S1: are able to take up so much space and so
• 23:31
  S1: much public attention with this stuff. And they get a
• 23:33
  S1: lot of they get a lot of oxygen. But we
• 23:36
  S1: we don't always hear moderates or, you know, left wingers
• 23:39
  S1: such as yourself come out.
• 23:41
  S4: This is where you tell us how.
• 23:42
  S1: Do you identify.
• 23:43
  S2: I think there'd be a lot of people.
• 23:44
  S4: Who find.
• 23:45
  S2: It very challenging, not just me to call me, call
• 23:47
  S2: me a left wing.
• 23:48
  S3: Left of the.
• 23:49
  S4: Party. But you don't like being called a moderate.
• 23:51
  S1: Tell us.
• 23:52
  S4: Tell us what you like being called.
• 23:53
  S2: Well, no, because this is, this is. And I made
• 23:55
  S2: this point before is that I don't believe the party
• 23:56
  S2: should be more moderate or conservative. I'm a if anything,
• 23:59
  S2: call me a liberal.
• 24:00
  S4: I'm okay with that moniker. Big liberal. Okay. Big liberal.
• 24:04
  S4: The big.
• 24:04
  S1: Liberals within the party are not don't.
• 24:06
  S4: Seem.
• 24:06
  S1: To be so good at taking the fight up to
• 24:08
  S1: the conservatives and articulating their arguments forcefully in public and
• 24:12
  S1: creating attention the way that, you know, Andrew Hastings, Jacinta
• 24:16
  S1: Price have recently.
• 24:17
  S2: Well, I think one of the challenges of a big
• 24:19
  S2: liberal is that there's so many different, um, battle lines
• 24:23
  S2: that are drawn. I want to fight and stand up
• 24:25
  S2: for and fight for Australians on the economy, on social inclusion,
• 24:30
  S2: because sitting behind issues of culture is social inclusion. Um,
• 24:33
  S2: you know, I believe very strongly in a socially liberal
• 24:36
  S2: society and respectful society and sitting behind that, you actually
• 24:39
  S2: have to have a culturally inclusive and respectful society as well. So, um,
• 24:45
  S2: I think I don't know why others may not choose
• 24:49
  S2: to prosecute these arguments, but I don't think I've ever
• 24:52
  S2: been afraid to. Even some of the debates this is.
• 24:54
  S2: I don't know how some of my colleagues perceive me, but, um,
• 24:57
  S2: you know, I don't think most of them would say
• 24:59
  S2: that I'm afraid of a fight. Uh, I think most
• 25:01
  S2: of them would say that I'm quite happy to. But
• 25:04
  S2: you've always got to pick your battles.
• 25:05
  S1: Yeah. On a more personal note, Tim, um, as you
• 25:08
  S1: mentioned before, you set out the last term of Parliament.
• 25:12
  S4: I'm not sure that was voluntary, but not voluntarily.
• 25:15
  S1: What did you learn in that time? Was it a
• 25:17
  S1: time of reflection for you? Was it a humbling time?
• 25:20
  S1: What did you sort of glean in terms of observations,
• 25:24
  S1: sitting on the outside looking in?
• 25:27
  S2: So it would be it would be wrong to say
• 25:29
  S2: it wasn't a humbling time. It has to be, um,
• 25:31
  S2: because I made a very conscious decision. My husband gave
• 25:35
  S2: me very good advice, and then I chose to take it,
• 25:38
  S2: which is you've got to look at this as a gift. Now,
• 25:42
  S2: he probably saw it more as a gift, as an
• 25:43
  S2: opportunity to move on from politics. And instead he spent
• 25:46
  S2: three years in purgatory, as I insatiably Calculated my way
• 25:51
  S2: back in. Um, but. But it was a gift. Because
• 25:56
  S2: you got to reflect on the government, uh, the party,
• 26:01
  S2: you know, yourself, the community, where it was at, what
• 26:04
  S2: led to their decision, their behavior. But there was also
• 26:07
  S2: a lot of other more mundane and prosaic things like
• 26:09
  S2: campaign and campaign structure. And so I'm the first to
• 26:13
  S2: say that I'm a better politician for it. I'm not
• 26:16
  S2: saying I'm perfect, but I spent a lot of time
• 26:18
  S2: thinking about those things and ruminating. But I think actually
• 26:22
  S2: one of the things that I really came back with
• 26:24
  S2: was a sense of perspective, which is you have great
• 26:27
  S2: privilege for three years, and it's very much a three
• 26:30
  S2: year time frame, and you go for contract renewal and
• 26:32
  S2: whatever it is, so be it, and that you've just
• 26:35
  S2: got to be yourself. Um, and I don't think I
• 26:37
  S2: was ever not myself, but I'm not going to always
• 26:39
  S2: say that I was my best self.
• 26:41
  S4: Right.
• 26:41
  S2: And or that you were sometimes thinking about moves and
• 26:44
  S2: steps ahead rather than actually saying, actually, I've got a
• 26:48
  S2: job to do. Um, I'm very proud of the community
• 26:50
  S2: that I represented, and I really I'm extremely proud. I'm
• 26:54
  S2: incredibly privileged to have had their trust again, but that
• 26:58
  S2: I'm in this to do great things for our community
• 27:01
  S2: and our country. How chips will land. So be it. Um,
• 27:04
  S2: and I don't spend waking hours thinking about or overcomplicating
• 27:09
  S2: or overthinking things now because, um, I just look at
• 27:12
  S2: it and think, what an enormous privilege it is that
• 27:14
  S2: I've had.
• 27:15
  S3: We spoke when you decided to run again in Goldstein.
• 27:17
  S3: After a period of.
• 27:19
  S2: You can break, you can break the trust if you want.
• 27:22
  S3: It was on the record.
• 27:23
  S2: No, I know.
• 27:24
  S3: But yeah, it was a good chat we had. But
• 27:26
  S3: on the record, you said at the time that, you know,
• 27:28
  S3: you acknowledged that there was a perception of you as
• 27:30
  S3: someone who was sometimes arrogant, sometimes went about things in
• 27:32
  S3: a way that was polarizing and annoyed people. How have
• 27:35
  S3: you changed your have you changed interpersonally in the way
• 27:39
  S3: you deal with colleagues or the way you deal with
• 27:41
  S3: your electorate? Since then, do you feel like a different
• 27:43
  S3: kind of character?
• 27:45
  S2: No, I think people I think actually it's slightly different,
• 27:48
  S2: which is I think I don't think people know me,
• 27:51
  S2: and I think because I've sort of spent most of
• 27:54
  S2: my adult life in public life, which is a bit odd, actually,
• 27:59
  S2: when you think about.
• 27:59
  S4: It, it's a strange way to live.
• 28:00
  S2: It is a strange way to live. But, you know,
• 28:02
  S2: all the way back to when I was president of
• 28:04
  S2: the student union, you know, many, many years ago. Now
• 28:06
  S2: I'm expecting everyone to remember that or observe that. But
• 28:10
  S2: sort of since about 25, I've actually been in different capacities,
• 28:13
  S2: in modest ways in public life. And people build up
• 28:16
  S2: character tours of who you are. And I don't think
• 28:19
  S2: most people kind of knew who I was. And so
• 28:23
  S2: I think they built these characters. I don't think all
• 28:24
  S2: of them were always flattering. And then some people also,
• 28:27
  S2: I think, took advantage of that. And so, um, what
• 28:32
  S2: I've tried to be, uh, obviously I had a chance
• 28:34
  S2: to reintroduce myself, but I'm trying to be much more
• 28:39
  S2: very clearly tell my story, um, through as much as
• 28:43
  S2: possible about who I am from, whether it's, you know,
• 28:46
  S2: thanks for giving me the chance to do it, Paul.
• 28:48
  S2: Talking about, um, all the way since having a job
• 28:50
  S2: since age 11. Um, and that, uh, you know, I
• 28:54
  S2: have worked very hard for everything I've got. And, you know,
• 28:56
  S2: I think there are a lot of people who enjoyed
• 28:57
  S2: watching me be, um, slapped down in 2022 and, uh,
• 29:03
  S2: gave a lot of people a lot of satisfaction.
• 29:04
  S3: Why do you think this is? So your view is
• 29:07
  S3: that there's a misconception of you as someone who's highly privileged.
• 29:10
  S2: Yeah, I do think there is that because and I'm
• 29:12
  S2: not trying to I didn't I don't have a log
• 29:14
  S2: cabin story either. I'm not pretending that. But I think
• 29:18
  S2: people misunderstand. You know, my dad mowed lawns. My mom, um,
• 29:22
  S2: worked for lives.
• 29:23
  S4: Yeah. Um.
• 29:24
  S3: My own pubs.
• 29:26
  S2: My mum worked in pubs, and they they managed pubs
• 29:29
  S2: when I was younger and, uh, and, you know, I
• 29:32
  S2: started my first paper route at age 11. I was,
• 29:35
  S2: you know, a waiter through most of my teenage years. Uh,
• 29:38
  S2: and so I'm not suggesting in any way, shape or
• 29:40
  S2: form that I had a hard life. But at the
• 29:42
  S2: same time, you know, my, the second part of my
• 29:45
  S2: childhood was a complete disaster over crisis of confidence about
• 29:48
  S2: my sexuality. I go into a lot more detail, but it's, uh,
• 29:52
  S2: you know, like, all I've done is I've just seized
• 29:55
  S2: life and gone partly because of that crux at the age.
• 29:58
  S2: Second part of my childhood over the crisis of confidence
• 30:01
  S2: in my sexuality. I've always had this. I don't know
• 30:04
  S2: how you put it, but almost kind of fear that
• 30:06
  S2: I'm only ever moments away from, um, perhaps not life,
• 30:10
  S2: not going the way I want to. And so you
• 30:12
  S2: just throw yourself in it with the level of confidence
• 30:15
  S2: it probably throws people. Um, um, but it's just naturally
• 30:19
  S2: who I am, and I'm just not kind of afraid.
• 30:21
  S2: But I think people find that pretty off putting. So, um,
• 30:26
  S2: I guess I'm just now, I think people enjoyed watching
• 30:28
  S2: me be slapped down, but I think equally, most people thought, well,
• 30:33
  S2: he's a from his background, what they assumed he's never
• 30:37
  S2: going to get up from that. And then and it's
• 30:39
  S2: been interesting watching some Labour members of Parliament where I
• 30:42
  S2: think they oddly have this strange kind of regard for
• 30:45
  S2: people who pull themselves back up because they know a
• 30:48
  S2: lot of people in that situation, and I've noticed even
• 30:51
  S2: their dynamic change towards me as a person because they've
• 30:54
  S2: watched and they've gone like, Jeepers, you're actually not what
• 30:57
  S2: we thought.
• 30:58
  S1: You've earned a little bit of respect there.
• 31:00
  S2: Well, amongst some people, I'm not saying everybody.
• 31:02
  S3: The counter to that would be in terms of people.
• 31:04
  S3: You're saying that people like to see you lose if Zoe,
• 31:07
  S3: Daniel or one of her supporters were sitting here, I
• 31:09
  S3: know that they would say that they view you as
• 31:12
  S3: incredibly hostile to your opponents and also enjoying in their
• 31:17
  S3: misfortune to have kind of almost pathological level. They would
• 31:20
  S3: say about you. What would you say to that?
• 31:23
  S2: Well, actually, I've said this on the record many times,
• 31:26
  S2: and I'll keep saying it, which is actually I'm incredibly
• 31:28
  S2: empathetic to my predecessor. Um, and I know how hard
• 31:31
  S2: it is because I've lived it. And losing public office
• 31:35
  S2: is actually one of the hardest things. Now, I'm not
• 31:37
  S2: going to try and pretend that I get along with
• 31:39
  S2: my predecessor, and she wouldn't pretend otherwise. Uh, and a
• 31:43
  S2: lot of her supporters don't like me. And, you know,
• 31:45
  S2: I'm not exactly besties with.
• 31:47
  S3: Its particularly vicious.
• 31:48
  S2: It's very hard for me to then just be peachy
• 31:50
  S2: and chummy, because I do actually operate within a parameter
• 31:53
  S2: of of, um. I'm interested in politics for the contest
• 31:58
  S2: of ideas.
• 31:59
  S4: Mhm.
• 32:00
  S1: Tim, we've so enjoyed having you and I'm particularly excited
• 32:03
  S1: that you are a fellow. You also had a paper
• 32:05
  S1: round at age 11 because I had one too.
• 32:07
  S4: Did you.
• 32:08
  S1: And I apologize to anyone who never got their copy
• 32:11
  S1: of the.
• 32:11
  S4: North Shore Times though. Oh my God.
• 32:14
  S1: My mother had. It was terrible. Like I was the worst,
• 32:17
  S1: worst paper deliverer girl. My bike wasn't big enough. The
• 32:22
  S1: you know, the North Shore times really should never have.
• 32:24
  S4: Employed me for.
• 32:25
  S1: 2 to $2 a week or whatever.
• 32:28
  S4: It.
• 32:28
  S1: Was. I got, um, $2.
• 32:30
  S2: That's expensive for.
• 32:31
  S4: That.
• 32:31
  S1: No, that was what I was getting paid.
• 32:32
  S4: Oh, yeah.
• 32:33
  S1: Or thereabouts.
• 32:34
  S4: Yeah, it was slave labor or something. Yeah. Okay. I don't.
• 32:37
  S2: Think I was.
• 32:37
  S4: Getting penalties. We should have unionized. Tim. Well.
• 32:41
  S3: He would have busted the union.
• 32:43
  S4: That's right. No, no, I.
• 32:44
  S2: Would have ended up leading the union.
• 32:46
  S4: That's right.
• 32:46
  S2: Fundamentally misunderstand.
• 32:47
  S4: Me. Could have.
• 32:48
  S1: Gone so.
• 32:48
  S4: Differently for you. Well, I was.
• 32:50
  S2: A union leader at.
• 32:51
  S4: University.
• 32:51
  S1: There you.
• 32:52
  S4: Go.
• 32:52
  S1: There you go, Tim. We've loved getting to know you
• 32:55
  S1: a little bit more on this podcast. We'd love to
• 32:56
  S1: have you on again. Again with your big liberal energy.
• 33:01
  S1: Thank you Tim.
• 33:01
  S5: Thank you.
• 33:07
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers and Kai Wong
• 33:10
  S1: with technical assistance from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is
• 33:14
  S1: Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
• 33:18
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• 33:19
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• 33:26
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• 33:29
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• 33:32
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• 33:38
  S1: Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.