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Josh Packard on Faithfully Engaging the Next Generation · Future Christian

0:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a
0:07
conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas
0:10
and the future of the church. Welcome to the
0:18
Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond
0:21
Jr. Is in conversation with Dr. Josh Packard. Josh
0:26
is the co founder of Future of Faith and one of
0:29
the foremost experts in the spiritual lives of
0:32
American youth and religious trends in the United
0:35
States. He is an accomplished researcher in the
0:38
sociology of religion and new forms of religious
0:41
expression. He is a frequent keynote speaker and
0:45
acts as an advisor and board member to a number of
0:48
faith based organizations. Josh has authored
0:52
numerous books and articles in both popular and
0:54
academic outlets, including the recently released
0:58
Faithful Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger
1:01
Generations. Previous books include Church
1:05
Sociologists Reveal why People Are Done with
1:08
Church But Not Their Faith and Meaning. Eight
1:13
Values that Drive America's Newest Generations.
1:17
Josh lives in Greeley, Colorado with his wife and
1:20
teenage son where he is quickly becoming the third
1:23
best golfer in his family of three. A reminder,
1:27
before we start today's conversation, please take
1:30
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
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review and share Future Christian with a friend.
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Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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1:41
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possible.
2:00
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, recording
2:02
live and in person from Thornton, Colorado in m my
2:06
home and with. I'm here live with Josh Packard.
2:09
Hello and thanks for being here.
2:11
>> Josh Packard: Um, uh, it's so good to be in person. Usually you
2:13
have to do these things over a screen and it's so
2:15
nice to just get to talk.
2:16
>> Loren: I feel like we should call this like a, an
2:18
official conference or something. But it's just.
2:20
It is what it is. Josh, you're going down to the.
2:23
You want to plug.
2:24
>> Josh Packard: Oh yeah, headed down to the forma conference, um,
2:27
which is a first time experience for me here. Um,
2:31
and gonna kind of talk about gonna have some
2:34
dinner with people for this big storytelling grant
2:36
that we just got in conjunction with BTS and are
2:38
helping to lead over the next five years. It's
2:40
gonna be really exciting.
2:41
>> Loren: Cool. Cool. Well, we're here to talk about,
2:45
amongst other things, your book Faithful Future
2:47
Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger Generations. But
2:51
before we begin, you wanted to share about your
2:53
background faith journey, what that looks like,
2:55
what that looks like today.
2:57
>> Josh Packard: Happy to. Um, I, gosh, I would tell the story by
3:03
saying that I grew up Lutheran, but the truth is
3:05
that we didn't um, start going to church until it
3:08
was time to get confirmed. Even though there's
3:11
never a sense of Antagonism towards religion at
3:13
all. Um, my dad's Catholic. My mom is born, uh,
3:17
and raised uh, in the Lutheran Church. And when it
3:20
came time for me to get confirmed, you know, they
3:22
had a coin flip to see, you know, we're going to
3:25
the ELCA church down the road or the Catholic
3:27
Church. And my mom won the coin flip. But if she
3:30
hadn't, I'm pretty sure we'd gone for two out of
3:32
three or three out of five. You know how moms are.
3:36
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
3:37
>> Josh Packard: And that theology, um, has really resonated with
3:42
me. Um, I've been happy to work to Texas Lutheran
3:45
University. Not really for religious reasons, but
3:48
it was just sort of in my sphere and then just
3:53
stayed involved with it. I became a sociologist of
3:55
religion because I was super interested in this.
3:57
And um, met my wife actually in college and we
4:01
were both campus ministry assistants. But we've
4:03
never been in formal ministry positions. I mean
4:05
I've never. I don't pretend to have been a pastor.
4:07
Gosh. Or um, even you know, like a youth minister.
4:11
You know, sort of non ordained positions. Um, but
4:15
lots of friends who are. And stay connected to the
4:17
church.
4:18
>> Loren: But some camping ministry experience which I think
4:21
will.
4:22
>> Josh Packard: Two years at Sky Ranch Lutheran Camp, which is an
4:24
incredible place. But yeah, that is the extent of
4:28
my formal ministry. Physicians.
4:29
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, for those paying attention to. We do
4:33
have some non human guests, some dogs in the
4:36
background.
4:36
>> Josh Packard: We have a live studio audience.
4:37
>> Loren: Yeah, studio audiences. Right.
4:39
>> Josh Packard: Two really adorable dogs.
4:41
>> Loren: I'm glad you think so. Yeah. My kids would be so
4:48
sad, um, if you guys left. Well, sociologists
4:51
sometimes get weirded out when I ask this
4:53
question. So I'll leave you some space to answer
4:55
this how you want to.
4:56
>> Josh Packard: Uh.
4:56
>> Loren: Asking about spiritual practices for yourself if
4:59
you want to answer it sociologically. What
5:01
spiritual practices you see in the broader
5:04
culture.
5:06
>> Josh Packard: We are coming up on one of my favorite, um,
5:09
seasons in the church, uh, of Lent. Um, uh, it's
5:15
one that M means it holds a particular kind of
5:17
place for us at the church that we go to now. Our
5:21
son is named Holden, um, not after Holden
5:24
Caulfield, but after the Holden Evening Prayer,
5:26
which is a little interesting inside of the um.
5:29
ELCA comes out of Holden Village and our church
5:32
does it every Wednesday night during Lent. And so
5:34
it's um, it's. We just. My wife and I really liked
5:38
that liturgy. We did it when we were campus
5:40
ministers. And um, it's. It's really. I mean what
5:42
a stroke of luck to get to find a congregation
5:44
that does it every Lent. You know, Right. For the
5:47
Wednesday night. So that's a big one for us. Um,
5:50
but also every morning when my son is eating
5:54
breakfast and my wife is there, we. I read a poem
5:57
or two from Mary Oliver and that has been a very
6:00
nice grounding. Sort of. I mean, she's overtly.
6:02
Not even, it's not even like undertones of
6:04
religion, just overtly. And so, um, uh, that's
6:08
been a good practice for us lately too.
6:10
>> Loren: Yeah. Cool. Thanks for sharing. I am curious. This
6:13
is something that my co host Martha is always more
6:18
attached to than I am. But we hear a lot of people
6:21
talk about utilization of the daily office. Do
6:24
you. Have you seen anything there? Like, do you
6:26
think it's more than anecdotal, this more leaning
6:30
into more ritual and spiritual practice?
6:33
>> Josh Packard: Um, I mean, I can speak for myself and my friends
6:35
like the praise you go app. Um, has been
6:38
incredibly useful in this regard. And the. I don't
6:42
know if you're familiar with it, but the um, it is
6:46
sort of deeply contemplative. Yeah, you know,
6:49
it's, it's. It feels like this resistance against
6:54
celebrity preaching in almost like this very over
6:58
way. Um, when I look at the landscape of what
7:01
young people are engaged and energized by these
7:03
days, I mean, there will always be an attractional
7:05
element. Churches who do that very well are always
7:07
going to be able to attract people. But, um, the
7:10
questions that seem to be animating them are also
7:12
those things that sort of connect them to some
7:16
sense that what they're. The purported truth that
7:21
they're getting is connected to something more
7:23
than 15 minutes old. Right. Um, even if the basic
7:29
content of the sermon is the same at many other
7:31
places, I think they're really hungry for this
7:36
idea that there is a strain of truth or experience
7:39
at the very least that stretches beyond time.
7:42
>> Loren: Interesting. Well, I'm glad you brought that up
7:44
because we're talking today about your book
7:46
Faithful Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger
7:49
Generations. And I think, I think the first thing
7:53
that comes to mind, I suppose I should give you an
7:56
opportunity, just kind of generalize what the
7:59
book's about, what you hope to accomplish.
8:01
>> Josh Packard: Oh, sure. Thanks. I think the way that we
8:05
generally tend to approach generations in
8:08
religious spaces is, um, not particularly useful.
8:12
Uh, I make this distinction a lot in my work that,
8:15
like I say, I want to be useful, not interesting.
8:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
8:18
>> Josh Packard: Um, and I think the way we talk about generations
8:20
as containers tends to be interesting but not
8:23
particularly useful. And that's largely because
8:25
the amount of diversity that is present in our
8:28
world and uh, so Trying to classify an entire
8:32
generation as, you know, fill in the blank was
8:36
never particularly good. As the world has gotten
8:38
more diverse, I think we're actually moving
8:40
backwards. I think we're capturing less than even
8:42
half of the actual truth, uh, and experiences of
8:45
um, um, Gen Z, say or Gen Alpha, when we try to
8:49
characterize them all in a particular way. Um, and
8:53
so the book is really an attempt to get people to
8:55
rethink their approach to generations as more
8:57
process than product. So let's think about what
9:00
are they experiencing, what questions are they
9:02
asking? How can we speak, um, a language of truth
9:07
into a moment in this world when everything seems
9:09
up for grabs as opposed to trying to stereotype
9:12
them with a set of bullet pointed characteristics
9:15
and then build a program that like messages those
9:17
characteristics, which I don't, I find to be
9:20
actually kind of demeaning.
9:21
>> Loren: Yeah. So it's basically like, the point is like
9:24
Gen Z is always name characteristics. Let's build
9:29
a program around them being like, so socially
9:31
media driven and obsessed, for instance. Like,
9:34
let's build a program. And your point is like,
9:36
that's too simplistic, not accurate.
9:39
>> Josh Packard: And often it gets worse than that. Like, it's like
9:42
Gen Z doesn't they have short attention spans? But
9:43
they say millennials are narcissistic. Right. I
9:46
mean we are, but uh, Gen X is slackers. I mean,
9:49
yes, you are and we are, but we're also a lot of
9:52
other things and that characteristic is not evenly
9:56
distributed. Right. So if you go to rural Iowa,
9:59
you're going to find a very different experience
10:01
of a 15 year old than if you are in Boston.
10:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
10:05
>> Josh Packard: Um, and if you're, you know, if you're gay, you're
10:08
going to have a very different experience of being
10:11
a 15 year old, um, than, than not. Um, and if
10:16
you're black, you know your experience. And now
10:18
like this is the most diverse generation that has
10:21
ever existed, not just in America. This is the
10:24
most diverse generation that's ever existed
10:25
anywhere, ever. And so the idea of like, oh, well,
10:28
let's say they're all media obsessed. Well that's
10:30
not true. That's just like you're going backwards.
10:34
>> Loren: I mean, I think it's important to say in general
10:38
because I think, I think the whole generational
10:40
thing, it's sort of like this like left brain,
10:43
right brain or like the, what the like amoeba
10:47
brain or the reptile brain.
10:49
>> Josh Packard: The reptile brain.
10:50
>> Loren: Like it's become like this like helpful analogy
10:53
that's been made into like concrete fact.
10:57
>> Josh Packard: Right.
10:57
>> Loren: And I sort of wanted, like, but so I appreciate
11:01
that perspective. You talk in the book to begin
11:04
too. And I sort of think this is along the same
11:06
vein around why the mental models no longer work
11:10
for Gen Z, Gen Alpha. So if I understood that
11:14
you're kind of like, what you and I might know
11:16
about, like, being a young person, like, throw
11:19
that all out the window.
11:21
>> Josh Packard: Yeah.
11:22
>> Loren: Is that too harsh?
11:23
>> Josh Packard: Uh, I don't think it's okay. So there's two
11:27
reasons. The argument that I'm making is that, you
11:29
know, basically when we try to understand young
11:31
people, we reach back to our own experiences as
11:34
young people.
11:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:34
>> Josh Packard: And we know that they're not 100% the same, but
11:37
that's where we start often. And, um, the argument
11:40
they're making is that the world is so much
11:42
different, as accelerated the pace of change, um,
11:45
over the last 10 or 15 years, that our own
11:48
experiences are not particularly helpful in that
11:51
regard. Um, but more importantly than that, like,
11:54
even if you could say, actually, you know, the
11:57
kids that I'm working with are a lot like I was
11:59
when I was a kid, that may be true. Um, I think
12:02
the more salient point here is that thinking that
12:06
you can extrapolate from your experience to the
12:08
experiences of today's teenagers with some degree
12:10
of certainty, um, almost inhibits or prohibits
12:15
your ability to be curious. If you think you know
12:17
what's going on.
12:18
>> Loren: Mhm.
12:19
>> Josh Packard: Why would you bother to stop and ask a question?
12:21
And that gets us to, like, where we're at in this
12:24
current cultural moment where the, the source of
12:29
truth, like the, the source of trust is going to
12:32
be found in relationships. Yeah, it's not gonna.
12:35
The data are clear. People don't trust
12:37
institutions or their leaders. It's all through
12:40
relationships. And when you're not inclined to ask
12:43
questions and be curious, it's really hard to form
12:45
a relationship with somebody when you think you
12:47
already know everything about them or a lot about
12:49
them.
12:49
>> Loren: It's interesting that you say that, because I'm
12:52
thinking of a podcast I produce for an Episcopal
12:55
diocese that's supposed to be centered around
12:57
young adults. So I always listen as I'm, um,
13:01
editing as sort of mini focus panels, especially
13:04
when they have young adults on. And this young
13:06
adult, this woman, was college age and she was
13:11
talking about inviting friends to church. And her
13:13
point was like, you know me, you trust me, if I'm
13:17
going there to church, it must be safe, right?
13:21
>> Josh Packard: Yeah, And I think that's exactly right. We, uh,
13:26
did this big study at future faith around
13:28
listening and faith formation, and over and over
13:31
again, the data from that are lining up with the
13:34
other kinds of data we've collected around. Just
13:37
reinforcing this idea of, you know, the primary
13:41
point of trust is not because somebody with an
13:43
important title tells you something.
13:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:45
>> Josh Packard: Um, you know, you encounter a big institution on
13:48
the corner where a whole bunch of people go to.
13:50
People are more inclined to trust the small church
13:53
that their friend goes to than the evidence of,
13:56
you know, thousands of strangers flocking to the
13:58
same place on a Sunday. And that's a big shift. I
14:00
mean, even when I was growing up, we would have
14:03
looked at the big church and said, well, look, if
14:05
that's good enough for those 3,000 people who are,
14:08
uh, in my community, then it must be good enough
14:10
for me. And boy, I just think the world has
14:11
changed.
14:13
>> Loren: This is sort of off topic, but I want to stay on
14:15
this because it's interesting. I'm thinking of. I,
14:17
uh, have a book on my shelf from Gary McIntosh, if
14:20
you've heard that name. Thinking of Southern
14:22
Baptist context. But certainly there's some truth
14:25
to this. Bigger churches have a draw. But I think
14:28
it's really intriguing, your point about smaller.
14:34
>> Josh Packard: I don't think it has to be small. It's just like
14:37
the, the access point that matters, especially,
14:40
especially for sustaining, um, or for people who
14:43
are on the margins is going to be through. Okay.
14:45
Because somebody, you know, has, uh, personally
14:49
invited you or goes there or whatever.
14:50
>> Loren: But I guess I'm thinking like that this is
14:53
probably a bit too dramatic, but it gets hope, I
14:55
guess to a smaller church like you like, the way
14:59
to reach people is not like you have to be huge
15:02
and dynamic.
15:06
>> Josh Packard: I think that is true. Like, I think there is some.
15:09
I, um, would see it as hopeful, but I like
15:11
relationships. I'm not inclined to run a big
15:14
campaign. I like getting to know people. But if
15:17
that's not like. I think it could be very
15:20
discouraging if you're, you know, if you are
15:23
trying to sort of play the same game as big and
15:26
well resourced churches and you don't particularly
15:28
want to lean into the slow and long work of
15:30
relationships.
15:32
>> Loren: Well, let's talk, let's get back into the book.
15:35
You talk about fast and slow with youth and young
15:38
adults. Talk more about what you mean by that.
15:41
>> Josh Packard: Well, it's sort of a takeoff from, um, the famous
15:44
book Thinking Fast and Slow. But this is. I was
15:47
reading that book and I was thinking about
15:48
teenagers and I was like, you know, they're sort
15:49
of growing up fast and slow.
15:51
>> Loren: Right.
15:52
>> Josh Packard: Um, but the problem is that adults Often don't see
15:58
it. M. They only see the slow part. They see the,
16:01
um, sort of in person part. They see the barista
16:05
at Starbucks that can't make change in their head.
16:07
They see the teenager that they meet who can't
16:10
shake hands or make eye contact. And, you know,
16:12
the, the kids that they know who are turning 16,
16:15
17, 18, and still don't drive, want to drive. And
16:18
they see like, why are you. You know, you're all
16:21
these traditional markers. Um, like you're growing
16:23
up. So. And sociologically, the data are the same.
16:25
They're leaving the house later than ever. They m.
16:27
Drink less, they have sex less, they do drugs
16:30
less, they're graduating from college later, they
16:31
get married later. Like, it's just all of these
16:34
things, you know, good and bad. I mean, some of
16:36
those are. Doing less drugs is a good thing.
16:37
Right. Um, but these sort of normal parts of
16:40
adolescence are all just seeming like they take
16:44
forever. Um, and that's what most adults see.
16:47
Right. But there is this, there is this aspect to
16:51
being a teenager today where they're growing up
16:53
faster than ever. And a lot of that is happening
16:55
online. And this is the part that adults almost
16:58
never see. And so the exposure to information.
17:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:02
>> Josh Packard: Um, that they're. They get. I was thinking about
17:06
this through the lens of my. My own 15 year old,
17:08
and I was like, he is encountering more news about
17:12
the world and more perspectives in a week, in a
17:17
day than I would have gotten in a year when I was
17:22
15. Would have been like, what, 1993? Um, and I
17:27
just think, like, what was my. I was trying to
17:29
think, like, what was my access point to news? And
17:31
it was, you know, literally what I would have
17:33
overheard as I passed through the living room and
17:36
my parents were watching.
17:37
>> Loren: Uh, I mean, mine would have been like, flipping
17:40
through the newspaper on my way to the sports.
17:42
>> Josh Packard: That's right. Yes, I would have. I would have seen
17:43
the headlines of the Dallas Morning News as I went
17:45
to the sports. Yeah, but it was. And so he's
17:48
getting. And you could argue that, like, what he's
17:50
seeing. We have a New York Times subscription. He
17:52
reads that. But also it's a lot on YouTube shorts.
17:55
>> Loren: Right.
17:56
>> Josh Packard: And his friends. And. And so you, uh, can argue
17:59
about whether it's true or not true and all that.
18:01
That's a whole different question. But my point is
18:03
that they're growing up so fast and so this
18:07
cognitive dissonance that that produces where
18:09
often the adults in their lives are saying, what's
18:12
taking you so long? And yet, ah, as Teenagers are
18:16
having these conversations. The way I often report
18:19
this is what one teenager said to me is like, how
18:22
am I supposed to listen? I'm paraphrasing, but
18:24
this is basically like, how am I supposed to
18:25
listen to this adult about the way they think I
18:27
should be behaving when they don't even know the
18:29
first thing about pronouns?
18:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:32
>> Josh Packard: And it's. You know what I mean? Like, it's not
18:34
that I don't think that adults are resisting those
18:37
conversations. They're just literally not in the
18:38
spaces where they're happening. It's almost like
18:40
teenagers living parallel lives that's growing up
18:43
fast and slow.
18:44
>> Loren: Yeah. You talk about the importance of listening.
18:51
In just that conversation. Certainly you talk
18:54
about it in your book. I think, like, I'm thinking
18:57
again about, like, mentorship. How we would
19:00
understand the kind of mentor youth relationship
19:03
is like, me giving advice. And if I'm hearing you
19:06
correctly in this conversation, in the book, I
19:10
feel like it's almost the opposite, would you say,
19:11
where it's like, rather than me just sitting and,
19:15
like, imposing my wisdom on some kid, it's like,
19:17
me, like, tell me what's happening and I'm just
19:20
gonna be listening.
19:22
>> Josh Packard: There is an aspect to that. And people who have
19:24
done. I mean, look there. Mentoring is proven. It
19:28
is effective when done well, almost more so than
19:31
anything else. And, um, but there's a lot of
19:35
different ways to do mentoring. And as you
19:36
mentioned, some people have a very narrow, uh,
19:40
idea that it means, like, I'm gonna dispense some
19:42
sagely wisdom to you. Um, but good mentors know
19:46
that that's a very important, but takes up a very
19:50
small amount of the time. Most of the time is
19:52
actually spent listening to them. And I think the
19:56
challenge here in ministry settings is that it's.
20:00
It can be really hard to sit and listen to a
20:02
teenager.
20:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:03
>> Josh Packard: They say wild things.
20:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:05
>> Josh Packard: You know, if you earn the trust enough that they
20:06
start talking to you, some of the stuff they say
20:10
can be bonkers. Um, frankly. And then some of it
20:13
is just alarming, um, about what their plans are
20:16
and, uh, what they're thinking and how they feel
20:20
about things. And the tendency then to want to
20:22
step in and correct or teach can be really strong.
20:27
Uh, so I think it's a really useful perspective.
20:30
This listening posture becomes really useful
20:32
because we have to remember that a lot of what
20:34
teenagers are doing when they're talking is just
20:36
working these ideas out. I had a teenager tell me
20:38
once, like, I don't even know what I think or
20:40
believe until I Say it out loud. Which is so wild
20:43
to me. Um, but I started, I started seeing that
20:46
then everywhere. Like, oh yeah, they're just
20:48
working these ideas out and ah, I take a lot of
20:51
comfort in this idea of like, I think back to the
20:53
music I listened to or the people I hung around
20:55
with, the, the, you know, the kinds of like what I
20:58
thought I would be when I was going to grow up,
20:59
when I was a teenager. All of it has changed.
21:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:02
>> Josh Packard: Uh, you know, so I think we get really, like. We
21:05
know that change is the hallmark of youth and yet
21:09
we, it's like we abandon that when we, when they
21:12
start talking about issues of faith because. And
21:14
they say something that isn't like in line with
21:15
what we want. If we feel like, oh my gosh, we
21:17
gotta step in right now because this is life and
21:18
death. It is really important.
21:20
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:21
>> Josh Packard: But they're also likely to change. And so like
21:25
what is more important? Correcting in this moment
21:27
that will change or being in a relationship with
21:31
them and accompanying them over the long haul and
21:33
establishing that trust so that they keep coming
21:35
back to you for the conversation. I would argue
21:37
that the second one is more important.
21:39
>> Loren: Well, let's talk about that because I'm thinking
21:41
of this, um, just in my own life. This Thursday,
21:46
I'm taking my daughter to the first, um,
21:50
confirmation class at church. You talk about
21:54
theological formation being less about filling
21:58
their buckets, which what I would think, like
22:01
that's certainly how I was raised. It's like, oh
22:04
yeah, you gotta like
22:05
>> Josh Packard: I memorized a bunch of stuff I don't remember now.
22:07
>> Loren: Right. Even, even like me growing up Independent
22:10
Baptist, there certainly wasn't formal
22:12
confirmation, but it was like you had to believe
22:14
the right things. Like that's what. Knowing the
22:16
right things is what it meant to be a Christian.
22:19
And at my church, and thinking back to uh, podcast
22:22
I had with the youth director there, Mike Orr,
22:25
like I think we talked about this but like, I mean
22:28
one of the statements of faith from the. One of
22:31
the confrance last year was like pretty like
22:35
sloshy if that makes sense. Like it wasn't super
22:38
like I believe X, Y and Z. And I was like, uh, you
22:42
know, I was kind of like part of me, like as an
22:44
old get off my lawn person was like, oh man, this
22:47
is like this is in the church. And then I thought,
22:49
well, this is great actually that like this, this
22:52
young person has space and it gets into this point
22:57
you're talking about conversation partners, which
23:01
you know as like a. Someone who's invested my Life
23:04
in the church makes me really nervous, but I think
23:06
like there's something to it. So why don't you
23:08
talk more about that?
23:10
>> Josh Packard: Okay, look, we are immersed in all things banned.
23:15
My 15 year old is in every conceivable band that,
23:17
you know, he could be in. He's on drumline, he's
23:20
in a marching band, he's in concert band, he's in
23:22
jazz band. Um, and I think he's great. I like
23:26
going to the concerts, I think they're enjoyable.
23:29
M But we don't go to high school band concerts
23:35
because we think it's the highest form of jazz. M
23:38
We go because we're interested in where our, where
23:43
our kid and our friends kids are at musically. And
23:45
you know, we want to support them on their journey
23:48
to being whatever it is that they're going to be
23:49
musically.
23:50
>> Loren: Mhm.
23:50
>> Josh Packard: I don't know. Uh, that's the way we approach all
23:52
things with teenagers. I don't know why we flip
23:54
that around. When they come, you know, when I
23:57
stand up and make these confirmation statements or
23:59
the statement of faith, or when they go through
24:01
confirmation class, it's like, you know, again, we
24:05
all of a sudden we start treating it like, oh,
24:07
this is the highest form of theology.
24:09
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:10
>> Josh Packard: Like why, if we don't expect the highest form of
24:12
anything from 14 year olds, why would we start
24:15
expecting it when they make these kinds of
24:17
statements?
24:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:18
>> Josh Packard: And if we approach in the same way that we
24:20
approach these band things like, oh, this is a
24:22
really cool snap. This is an amazing snapshot of
24:25
where you are right now. We don't think you're
24:28
done. Like formation doesn't stop. Um, it's more
24:32
like this is what you feel. Um, this is an
24:37
announcement or a proclamation of either what
24:39
you're saying you feel about your faith or what
24:42
somebody else is, you know, accrediting you as
24:44
saying, okay, they've been through confirmation
24:45
and this is what.
24:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:46
>> Josh Packard: Um, either way it's like, it becomes a way more
24:49
interesting conversation and it becomes the way
24:52
more interesting point of relationship if we think
24:54
of it as like a signpost on the road as opposed to
24:56
the destination. Um, and not only do I think it's
25:00
more interesting and useful, but I think it's more
25:02
accurate.
25:03
>> Loren: Well, that gets into something else in your book.
25:05
I want to ask about, about right answers not being
25:08
the goal. But also I thought maybe I can find this
25:11
quote that infinite choices is not like also the
25:20
helpful either. You say, when young people live in
25:22
a world of infinite choices, nothing is going to
25:25
keep them from Exploring. Our job now is to show
25:28
them how to navigate those choices, not to try and
25:31
restrict them from making them. So, uh, because
25:37
you can tell me if you disagree here, but this is.
25:39
I think. I think one of the limitations of, like,
25:44
progressive Christianity is, like, it seems to be
25:46
like, oh, it's just all out there for you. So am
25:50
I. Am I hearing you right here?
25:52
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think when I, When I talk about infinite
25:54
choices, I'm talking about. It's not a normative
25:56
statement of saying there should be.
25:59
>> Loren: Okay.
26:00
>> Josh Packard: I think this is the reality.
26:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:02
>> Josh Packard: The reality of being on Instagram.
26:03
>> Loren: Right.
26:04
>> Josh Packard: Is that you have infinite choices. Right. And, um,
26:09
I think trying to counter, uh, that with what is
26:14
basically your own algorithm, when you give
26:16
somebody a statement of faith and say you must
26:18
agree to these things, you're essentially trying
26:20
to wage a war of your algorithm against the
26:23
Instagram algorithm. And you're going to lose that
26:26
battle.
26:27
>> Loren: Yes.
26:27
>> Josh Packard: It's just not until somebody comes out with, uh,
26:30
you know, like a denominationally, uh, approved
26:33
social media network where you can only post the
26:36
things that align. A, nobody's subscribing to
26:38
that. And B, I think that's true social. Maybe.
26:44
Um, you know, it's A. And so it's not. It's not to
26:47
be. I'm not saying it's a better world.
26:49
>> Loren: Right.
26:50
>> Josh Packard: Um, we don't let our kid on social media. But I'm
26:53
saying it's the world. And so that becomes like an
26:56
imperative, uh, parenting. And I would say
27:01
formation task for ministers is. What do you do
27:04
with that if you're not equipping them to
27:07
navigate. If your only answer to, um, encountering
27:11
a world of infinite choices to turn it off.
27:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
27:14
>> Josh Packard: Then I think you're. You're just really not
27:16
equipping them for the world.
27:17
>> Loren: This sort of gets into Jonathan Haidt's work.
27:20
>> Josh Packard: Yes.
27:20
>> Loren: Which. That was sort of my, like,
27:26
>> Josh Packard: I
27:26
>> Loren: don't know what the word is. Like, I finished the
27:29
book, like, wanting more because I feel like he
27:31
was like, the takeaway, I feel like, is always
27:35
like, restrict, uh, screen time and certainly all
27:39
good things. But also there wasn't much around.
27:43
Like, when I read it, I was like, man, I feel like
27:46
there's just a huge hole. Like, I told my
27:48
daughter, I'm like, uh, my middle school daughter,
27:50
I'm like. Because she picked up the book and read
27:53
the introduction when I had it sitting around, I'm
27:55
like, to me, it's like people are just lacking.
27:58
They're hungry for purpose and meaning and they're
28:02
trying to Fill it with screen time and just
28:04
saying, like, oh, let's cut off your screen time.
28:06
Like, they're gonna find that somewhere else.
28:09
>> Josh Packard: Yeah. I think it's wild that the same people who
28:12
would say, you can't ban books will happily ban
28:15
Instagram or Facebook or whatever. Interesting to
28:19
me is just the most. It's the weirdest
28:22
contradiction. I'm the person who says, like, of
28:27
course there are books that shouldn't be in an
28:29
elementary school library. I don't think the
28:32
Catcher in the Rye should be read by third
28:34
graders. Um, even if they wanted to, for, uh,
28:37
example. Um, and I do not think that you should.
28:41
Like, it would be, uh. I don't think it's
28:44
criminal, but it would be ill advised to let
28:48
preteens on social media. I mean, the research is
28:50
really, really clear about the harmful nature of
28:53
it.
28:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:54
>> Josh Packard: So for me, the question isn't do we allow it all
28:56
or do we ban it all, or do we ban this thing or
28:58
that thing? That's hardly ever helpful. Look, I
29:02
wanted to listen to Dr. Dre's the Chronic so much,
29:05
precisely because my parents hated it so much. Um,
29:11
and, you know, it's a question like, how do we
29:13
consume this? And at what ages for your kid is age
29:17
appropriate. Right. And are you having
29:19
conversations? Like, we had this, um, talk in the
29:22
book about this person who said, you know, you
29:24
adults, you're the only people who make this
29:26
distinction between online life and in real life.
29:28
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:29
>> Josh Packard: She said, it's all just life to me.
29:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:31
>> Josh Packard: So I go home with this information that says this
29:33
to me at a conference and kind of blew my mind.
29:34
And I was like, you're right. Like, it's totally
29:36
correct. Like, they make no distinction here. And
29:39
I go home, and I'm talking to my son about this,
29:41
and he was playing a lot of Minecraft at the time,
29:44
and. And he goes downstairs to. To log into
29:48
Minecraft, and I'm like, hey, um, you know, make
29:53
sure I hope Minecraft is better today because
29:55
you're there. And he stops. He's like, what? What
29:57
does that mean? And I was like, I don't really
29:59
know, dude. But I'm just trying to make sure that
30:00
we're. You know, I realized what we had done is we
30:03
had sort of given that world over to him, and. And
30:06
we weren't parenting him through it in the way
30:09
that we parent him in other places. Like, we
30:12
talked to him when he would play sports. We're
30:13
like, look, God expects you to show up here on the
30:16
field in the same way. That God expects you to
30:18
show up in other places. We talk about
30:19
sportsmanship and same thing at school. Make sure
30:21
your school is better today. Because if you're a
30:23
Christian and that's what you say you want to be,
30:26
that should be a different experience for people
30:28
around you. And so, uh, how he executes that is
30:31
largely up to him. But we thought, gosh, we better
30:34
extend this over to the online space as well. And,
30:37
you know, we. Some very simple things. Like we,
30:39
you know, we'll sit down and watch. We'll go
30:41
through his. We do let. He has YouTube, but no
30:43
social, so we'll watch YouTube shorts together. I
30:45
want to see how he's processing and thinking about
30:48
this stuff. And, you know, I mean, it's some. I
30:51
can't imagine why anybody would just like, let
30:55
them unfettered into online spaces and not be
30:58
having, uh, what does God want from you in the
31:00
space conversation.
31:01
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to
31:04
shift gears here a little bit, and I suppose it's
31:06
still on track. I'm thinking of. I have an IKEA
31:08
furniture right here. Yeah, you talk about the
31:10
ikea, uh, effect. Explain that and then how you
31:14
see that relevant here.
31:15
>> Josh Packard: Okay, so the IKEA effect, I love this concept. So
31:18
it's a bi. There's like these places in the social
31:21
sciences, cognitive sciences, or like, that will
31:23
list all these biases, these social biases that we
31:25
carry around, and sometimes these cognitive ones.
31:27
And one of them is called the IKEA effect. And
31:29
it's this idea that even if it's a piece of junk,
31:32
which I'm not suggesting IKEA is, we have loads of
31:34
IKEA stuff, but even if it's
31:35
>> Loren: a piece of junk, I mean, it sort of sometimes is.
31:37
>> Josh Packard: If you built it yourself.
31:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:39
>> Josh Packard: You feel more pride over, uh.
31:41
>> Loren: Yeah, that's why this. I have this IKEA furniture.
31:44
I'm like, do we really want to get rid of that? I
31:46
spent five hours assembling that.
31:48
>> Josh Packard: Yes. And the idea is that, like, having to
31:53
assemble that is not actually a bug, it's a
31:55
feature.
31:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:56
>> Josh Packard: Like, IKEA wants you to assemble it in some ways
31:58
because you're prouder. Uh, even, you know, if
32:05
it's a total pain in the butt, maybe. Especially
32:07
if it's a total pain in the butt. Um, and so the
32:10
bias says, like, you know, we shouldn't really
32:11
value those things more. Like, it's. They're not
32:15
really. That they're not better because you put it
32:17
together. It's just. Is. But the reality is we do.
32:21
Um, and so we will move these crummy, falling, uh,
32:25
apart IKEA bookshelves. And when I say we, I mean
32:27
me from house to house, uh, because they sort of
32:32
tell a story. So the relevance here is that, um, I
32:37
think that very much applies to faith. That a
32:40
faith that is handed to you, um, through a set of
32:43
principles may be more certain.
32:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:46
>> Josh Packard: And this is where I was saying, uh, you know, I
32:48
think drawing from my own camp experience, we
32:52
could hand kids of faith in the course of a week.
32:54
Like, we learned how to do that and it's
32:56
effective, but I don't know how durable it is. And
32:59
that was the really, the like, what I think about,
33:01
like, what do I really hope for for teenagers? I
33:05
hope that we are introducing them to a
33:07
conversation about their own faith that they never
33:10
let go of. Uh, you know, that they're always
33:12
engaged in.
33:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:13
>> Josh Packard: Not that they get it right. I mean, I believe in
33:15
God's grace and I believe in the Holy Spirit. And
33:16
so like, getting it right is just actually not all
33:19
that important to me as much as being in
33:21
conversation with God for the rest of your life
33:23
is. Farm takes far more precedence.
33:26
>> Loren: So I'm thinking about, I was just reading in a
33:28
book yesterday, this guy was talking about how in
33:33
LDS faith, the two year mission is really
33:39
formative in producing a lifelong faith. Like I
33:42
think about this in my own life, my own. My wife
33:45
and I were married very young. Like I was 21,
33:49
almost 22. She was 20, like obviously worlds ago.
33:53
>> Josh Packard: Yeah.
33:54
>> Loren: But I think about like almost six months after we
33:58
were married. Like we moved across the country for
34:01
me to take a church job. And it wasn't a two year
34:04
commitment, but we had to like sink or swim on our
34:07
own.
34:07
>> Josh Packard: Right. Very quickly.
34:08
>> Loren: You know, there wasn't like mom and dad to like,
34:11
go home to when we were having a fight with the
34:13
other or whatever. So I'm just wondering, like,
34:16
I'm thinking of, like sociologically, does that
34:21
track then, like with this IKEA effect idea, like
34:24
the, the LDS mission, Like, how might that. What
34:29
are some other ideas or implementations of that
34:32
effect?
34:33
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think a lot of what, um, there's a lot of
34:38
helpful lessons from the two year mission, and not
34:40
the least of which is that it removes young people
34:44
from a world of temptation precisely at this
34:47
developmental stages when they're most likely to
34:48
give in to those temptations. I think that's
34:50
genius. Like, right in those college years when
34:54
you may be drifting away and you're encountering a
34:56
whole lot of new ideas and perspectives, they're
34:58
like, oh, hold on, let's pause.
35:00
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:00
>> Josh Packard: Uh, you know, I think about what I was doing
35:01
during those two years, and I'm not sure it was
35:04
necessarily moving me closer to my faith. It may
35:06
have been taking me further away. Um, but, but
35:10
again, we come back to this idea of like, what's
35:12
age appropriate?
35:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:13
>> Josh Packard: So it isn't throwing the training wheels off on a
35:16
bike that you've never been on before. Instead,
35:18
it's like, you know, you're gradually, um, um,
35:23
putting them into more and more context of more
35:25
and more freedom. And, and that's what, uh, I
35:28
think about driving. My son is about to drive
35:30
when. I don't know how this was for you when I
35:33
turned 16. They're like, Here's a license and all
35:36
the rights and privileges of everybody who's, you
35:39
know, ever been driving. You know, people who've
35:40
been driving for 20 years, you can now do all the
35:43
same things they can do. That was insane. Right?
35:45
Like, that made no sense as a driver.
35:48
>> Loren: Now I'm like, no, yes, exactly. Good idea.
35:50
>> Josh Packard: Um, but now we've learned, we've learned so much
35:53
and so we don't do that. Like, of course I had
35:57
driver training just like my son does now, but his
36:00
first six months he can only drive himself and
36:03
then he can drive one other person for a period of
36:05
time. Yeah. There's like this graduated approach
36:08
where we like slowly build them up to the
36:11
experience of, you know, first you're driving for
36:14
a year of training with your parents or another
36:16
adult, and then you get like six months of just
36:19
you driving alone and then you can let one other,
36:21
you know, uh, let's think about faith that way.
36:24
Right. Like, how do we get to a point where you're
36:26
truly on your own? Well, it's, it's not by just
36:29
tossing, you know, somebody who doesn't know how
36:31
to swim into the deep end. I love that about the
36:32
mission, but that's my point. It isn't just being
36:35
thrown into the deep end. It's.
36:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:36
>> Josh Packard: Um, it's just the next logical step of seminary
36:40
classes in the morning and a family that's
36:41
immersed in faith and going to a college that is
36:44
aligned.
36:44
>> Loren: And this is, I feel like the problem in
36:47
evangelical culture is especially in conserved.
36:50
It's like you get this, like. I don't know how to
36:54
say it, not derogatively, but, you know, they're
36:58
sort of like Sunday school approach to faith.
37:00
Like, I want like my 8 year old to learn these
37:03
Bible stories, but then I'm not sure how many
37:06
contexts that like, it becomes age appropriate of,
37:09
like, oh, are there questions, do we have
37:12
questions about, uh, the text or these stories or
37:17
theology?
37:17
>> Josh Packard: Sure. Well, I think that, uh, you have to really
37:21
look at the theological underpinnings behind those
37:24
positions. Um, and so this is where I'll sort of
37:28
rebalance the scales here and say, I think from an
37:31
evangelical perspective, I understand that
37:33
theologically what the mission is to do is to win
37:35
souls for Christ.
37:36
>> Loren: Right.
37:37
>> Josh Packard: And you know, the commitment of baptism is that
37:40
once done cannot be undone.
37:42
>> Loren: Right.
37:43
>> Josh Packard: So it would be understandable if there was less
37:46
focus on what happens past that point.
37:48
>> Loren: Right.
37:49
>> Josh Packard: Um, I don't, again, like, I don't think that
37:52
that's the best way to equip people for a
37:54
fulfilling life in Christ. I think that there's
37:56
more, I think paying more, a little bit more
37:58
attention to that side of the, um, timeline would
38:01
be helpful. But I understand it. I mean, what I'm
38:04
saying is like, I don't think it's inconsistent
38:05
with theology.
38:07
>> Loren: Well, and I, I think it, I think it's not
38:10
inconsistent, like you said. But I'm also thinking
38:12
like Ryan Burgess, forget one of his, his past
38:16
book about like, you know, that having a
38:19
profession of faith doesn't really make you any
38:21
more likely to attend church otherwise. So I think
38:26
if anything, like, hey, if we, if we want people
38:28
to be involved in church, like lifelong, we want
38:30
to make a lifetime, uh, profession or commitment
38:34
to faith, which certainly I want for my kids.
38:36
Like, trust me, like, I have a lot of angst
38:39
writing in this confirmation. Uh, like, I'm like,
38:42
I want my kids, I want my daughter to, you know, I
38:46
want her to see, to make a profession of faith.
38:49
You know, I want them to be baptized. And like, I
38:51
have a lot of angst about that. Trust me, if I
38:53
have a lot of angst, you can guarantee my
38:55
grandparents, my parents and my in laws have a lot
38:58
more angst.
39:01
>> Josh Packard: Yeah, for sure.
39:03
>> Loren: Uh, not where I'm sure I'm going with that.
39:06
Anything, um, else you want to say on this topic
39:08
before I transition us? I suppose.
39:11
>> Josh Packard: No, I mean, I just, again, like, I'll just
39:14
reinforce that. The idea is that, uh, you said it,
39:17
you said, you know, what we want is blah, blah.
39:20
And I'm like, well, let's be sure. But not
39:22
everybody wants the same thing. And I think
39:25
sometimes we design systems that don't necessarily
39:27
get us to the places that we want. My commitment
39:29
is like, I want people in, I want my own son. I
39:32
want other people to know that and have that
39:35
experience of A God who cares about them through
39:37
the course of their entire lives. But again,
39:38
that's not everybody's theology.
39:39
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Two, uh, quick things here before we
39:42
do some closing questions. One of the things I
39:45
appreciate, as someone who's obviously invested in
39:49
the church, really appreciates sacred space. You
39:51
talk about the importance of communal worship and
39:54
sacred space. Talk more about that.
39:58
>> Josh Packard: Look, it's a. The loneliness epidemic is well
40:00
documented. Um, there is. Christianity especially
40:05
is a communal expression. Um, it is not. I'm not a
40:11
theologian, but I do not see. I've not read a
40:13
defense or seen much that suggests that at a broad
40:18
effort, aside from some hermits and people who
40:21
have really committed themselves to this monastic
40:23
life, that it's intended to be alone.
40:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:25
>> Josh Packard: Um, yeah. And I think that that, that reality, um,
40:29
that theological position meets this modern
40:31
reality where also young people especially need to
40:34
not be alone.
40:35
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:35
>> Josh Packard: Um, and it's. Their online relationships are real
40:39
and they are important. Um, and adults need to
40:43
wrap their heads around that.
40:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:45
>> Josh Packard: And they're not enough.
40:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:47
>> Josh Packard: And that is also true.
40:48
>> Loren: Maybe that's the way of saying, like, it's not
40:49
enough.
40:50
>> Josh Packard: It is not. It is a. It is a critical component of
40:53
their social reality, but it is also critical that
40:57
they are together in person and they need more
40:59
spaces where they can do that. M. And I think
41:01
worship is one of those ideally situated, um,
41:07
moments of giving yourself over to this period of
41:11
time and to this space and to these people.
41:13
>> Loren: Mhm. The last thing here regarding the book, you
41:18
talk about the rise of the micro narrative as
41:20
opposed to, if I remember, you contrast it versus
41:25
the meta narrative.
41:25
>> Josh Packard: You want to get nerdy for a second? So I was a lit
41:29
major, uh, and we talked a lot in the late 90s
41:33
about this postmodernism. Postmodernism can be the
41:37
death of the meta narrative. That it's going to
41:39
things like the American Dream or Christianity's
41:41
big overarching, um, like what uh, sociologists
41:47
would call the sort of sacred canopy. Um, we're
41:50
going to go away, uh, essentially and the world is
41:53
going to be fractured into a thousand pieces. And
41:55
Robert Bella wrote about Sheila ism in the 1980s
41:58
where every individual had their own, you know,
42:00
unique faith. Sheila.
42:02
>> Loren: Sheila. Yeah. Um, I mean that gets into Christian
42:05
Smith's mtd, Right?
42:07
>> Josh Packard: Moralistic, therapeutic deism. M. Yeah. Um, I
42:11
don't think that's true. Like, I don't think that.
42:13
I don't think the world has played out that way.
42:15
When I take a. So I think it's. I think that Plays
42:19
into those biases around that we were talking
42:21
about at the beginning of this conversation
42:22
around, like, this generation is narcissistic or
42:28
lazy or what have you.
42:29
>> Loren: Sure.
42:30
>> Josh Packard: When I take a sober look at, ah, what I see
42:32
teenagers actually doing, um, in a lot of cases,
42:38
what appears at a cursory look to be like they're
42:41
picking and choosing is. I call these micro
42:46
narrative approaches, which means that they're not
42:48
rejecting the idea of a narrative, um, which is
42:53
what the death of the metanarrative suggested. Um,
42:56
and that everything was gonna be fragmented. I
42:57
think they still long for something that stitches
43:00
all this together. It's just that they're no
43:02
longer looking for institutions to provide that
43:05
narrative for them. Instead, they're trying to
43:09
create that narrative through this pathway,
43:13
through those instit. Because they don't trust any
43:15
of them enough to sign wholesale. You know, um,
43:19
yeah, I had somebody. And of course not this
43:21
project, but a different one, say, like, how am I
43:23
supposed to. How am I supposed to check a box to
43:25
say that I'm Catholic when the church has
43:28
consistently gotten it wrong about women? They're
43:30
getting it wrong about gay people right now. They
43:32
failed to cut, you know, they failed to hold, um,
43:34
pedophiles to, uh, account and da, da, da. I can't
43:37
co. Sign. Right. I can't check that box. But I
43:40
like a lot of the things in Catholicism. I like
43:42
the theology there. It's just, I'm not going to
43:44
affiliate or identify with the institution. So on.
43:47
What I mean by micro narratives is not. It's not,
43:50
again, not a normative statement. I don't. I'm not
43:52
arguing that this is good or bad, but what I see
43:55
is that young people are trying to figure out a
43:57
pathway through their life with integrity, where
44:00
they can, say, care about the environment and
44:02
order a bunch of stuff on Amazon that gets
44:04
delivered in all these cardboard boxes. Right.
44:06
Like, how can I, you know, be a part of this
44:10
campus ministry where I get to, you know, I have
44:12
these important relationships and I get to ask
44:14
and. And have conversations about the most
44:17
fundamental questions in the world and also
44:20
participate in, you know, the coexist LGBTQ club
44:24
and be friends and, like, support all my friends
44:28
who are, um, lesbian, gay, transgender, what have
44:32
you? Um, how do I manage all of these conflicting
44:35
things? Because I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna just
44:37
sign up for one or the other.
44:38
>> Loren: Right.
44:39
>> Josh Packard: But I'm also not willing to live a life that
44:41
doesn't make sense.
44:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:42
>> Josh Packard: The death of the meta narrative was sort of this
44:44
idea that we would all get very comfortable living
44:46
in these fractured environments. I just have not
44:49
seen that. I mean, yeah, I think young people are
44:51
still trying to figure out a way to make their
44:53
life make sense. And, and that's what I mean by
44:55
they're constructing these micro narratives
44:57
because it's not gonna look the same for each, you
44:59
know, from kid to kid to kid.
45:01
>> Loren: So rather than this top down, like this is, I
45:04
mean, and to, since we've talked about formation,
45:08
like this is what essentially formation,
45:10
traditionally formation confirmation, same thing,
45:13
right? Formation is, is like, uh, I'm going to be
45:16
a top down. This is, this is the truth. And if I'm
45:21
hearing you right, you're saying like, it's not
45:23
that they're not going to take some elements of
45:26
that or most elements of that, but they're. I
45:30
don't know, I'm still getting in my head, I guess.
45:33
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think that it's useful to have this. I
45:35
mean, it's like the church. I'm not suggesting
45:38
that the church is trying to find its way through.
45:39
The church knows the church has a Medinarian,
45:42
right?
45:43
>> Loren: I mean, I hope so.
45:44
>> Josh Packard: Yeah, it should. Um, uh, I'm just saying that as,
45:49
as teenagers are trying to figure out who they
45:51
are, that, that they are not. I mean, I think the
45:53
evidence is really clear. They are not just gonna
45:55
check. They're not gonna just like, oh, cool,
45:57
thank you. I've been waiting for somebody to tell
45:58
me what to do. Yeah, try telling a teenager what
46:00
to do and see how far it gets you. Um, and so to
46:06
match the reality, there is not to say, uh, you
46:09
can pick whatever part of this you like today and
46:11
change tomorrow. To match the reality is to say,
46:15
look, this is where this comes from. This is why I
46:17
believe it. This is why we feel so compelled by
46:19
this charism or by this statement of beliefs or by
46:22
this creed. Um, uh, this is not an opportunity for
46:27
you to, you know, sort of like combine the
46:30
Apostles Creed with the Tarot reading, you know,
46:34
with the Jewish Shabbat. Like, this is not what
46:37
we're doing here.
46:38
>> Loren: Okay.
46:38
>> Josh Packard: Um, you need to respect and honor the traditions,
46:43
but you can't do that if you don't know what they
46:44
are. So this class is really about teaching you
46:48
where this comes from. Who asked what questions to
46:51
get us to this point, um, so that you can have
46:53
some working understanding of how to incorporate
46:55
it into your life.
46:56
>> Loren: And I feel like we're running along here. This is
46:59
where I think. Tell me what you think about this.
47:01
This is where I think, like Denominationalism is
47:06
really well suited to this. And I always wonder,
47:08
like, how can denominations and traditions do a
47:11
better job? Because, like, I always think, like,
47:13
well, they've been thinking about these questions
47:15
for so long.
47:17
>> Josh Packard: Yes, I agree. And I, I mean, I don't. I'm. I'm.
47:21
I'm not of the mind that denominations are going
47:23
to present. Their reality is like, well, here's
47:25
one truth among many.
47:26
>> Loren: Right.
47:26
>> Josh Packard: But I do think we can do a. Of saying, like, you
47:29
know, here's how this came to be.
47:31
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, do you think. Do you think, broadly
47:37
speaking, this is a broad brush? Big time. I feel
47:40
like American Christianity is kind of, at least a
47:42
white American Christianity has kind of broken
47:43
into these, like, liberal and conservative,
47:47
evangelical. I've wondered, like, does. Does
47:50
American Christianity almost need to be, like,
47:52
Would be better off, like, re. Emphasizing our
47:54
uniquenesses?
47:56
>> Josh Packard: Oh, it's an interesting thought. I haven't. I have
47:58
not. I have not thought about that. Uh, I'm not
48:01
even sure I would be the right person. I just.
48:05
Sociology does so, like, gives us such good
48:08
perspective. I don't know that it's very good at
48:12
telling us what we should do.
48:13
>> Loren: Fair enough.
48:14
>> Josh Packard: And it's just a, uh. So, like, that would cause
48:17
me. I would have to think hard about that because
48:19
it would take me outside of, like, my default
48:22
skill set.
48:22
>> Loren: Yeah. Okay, well, hey, I. I got you a hump. So I
48:25
feel like.
48:25
>> Josh Packard: There you go. Yeah, no, I'm gonna. I'll be
48:28
thinking about on the drive.
48:30
>> Loren: Okay, let's move on to closing questions here. Um,
48:34
if you're a Pope for a day, what do you want to do
48:38
with that day? Anything you do. Any kind of, like,
48:41
broad sociological thing you'd want to study?
48:45
>> Josh Packard: Um, well, look, I love what Francis was doing with
48:48
synodality, and I'm hopeful that that continues.
48:52
Um, so if I was Pope for a day, this Catholic
48:56
focus, uh, on, um, the church becoming a more
49:00
listening synodal church, is what that means for
49:03
your audience that is not super familiar with the
49:05
Catholic world. Um, basically, it's just a tent by
49:08
the Catholic Church to start listening to the rank
49:09
and file. And that's what, you know, even if we're
49:12
extending Pope beyond Catholic, like, if we're
49:14
just using it as a metaphor.
49:15
>> Loren: Yes, it is meant to be a metaphor. So thank you
49:17
for.
49:18
>> Josh Packard: I would pick up that very particular straight. I
49:20
mean, I really think that, um, if we could be more
49:24
curious, more listening, more structurally
49:26
oriented towards process over outcome.
49:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:31
>> Josh Packard: I actually think that we would find more of the
49:32
outcomes that we Want.
49:35
>> Loren: That's good. A, uh, theologian. So I feel like
49:39
since I'm. You're a sociologist, maybe I should
49:41
broaden this conversation. Like, I usually say
49:44
theologian or historical Christian figure. Is
49:46
there, like, a historical sociologist? Historical
49:50
sociologist you'd want me to bring back to life?
49:53
>> Josh Packard: Um, okay. Let's go.
49:55
>> Loren: Uh, if you want to say, like, the Apostle Paul,
49:58
that's fine, too.
50:00
>> Josh Packard: No, I'm okay. So I'm. I'm actually going on a trip
50:03
with Andy Root. I see his. You've got some of his
50:05
books there. But Andy is running a sort of
50:07
pilgrimage lesson, um, experience to, um,
50:12
Bonhoeffer's house, uh, in Germany this fall. And
50:16
I'm really excited to go there. So Bonhoeffer
50:18
would be very, um, high up on that list for me,
50:22
and I'm excited to get to dig in and learn more.
50:25
>> Loren: That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Um, talking to,
50:29
uh, Kara Root Friday as we're recording this for
50:33
the book. So, um, what do you think history will
50:37
remember from our current time and place?
50:41
>> Josh Packard: Well, this is a lot of recency bias. I mean, if
50:43
we're just talking about the last five or ten
50:45
years, um, I think they'll record how mean we were
50:49
to each other. I mean, it just in some ways, feels
50:52
cruel, and it just, uh. It's hard for me to get
50:55
out of that. I hope that we're able to turn the
50:59
tide on that so that when history remembers this
51:02
like, that these last 10 or 15 years, that posture
51:05
of these last 10, 15 years is a blip. And so it's
51:07
not worth noting. But right now I just. I can't. I
51:09
keep coming back to, like, it just. It feels so
51:12
mean and small. I know that, like, there are lots
51:17
of. Look, our newsletter, Future of Faith, is
51:19
filled with people who are doing amazing and
51:21
expansive things, but so much of what I see in the
51:23
news and politically just feels cruel.
51:26
>> Loren: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, do you hope for the
51:29
future of Christianity?
51:34
>> Josh Packard: This feels like a weird place. I do this a lot,
51:36
though, um, for the sociologists in the room to be
51:39
reminding, uh, like, sometimes I'm giving keynotes
51:42
or whatever, talks in front of pastors, um, like,
51:45
large audiences of pastors and ministers, and I'm
51:47
the one reminding them that the Holy Spirit does,
51:49
in fact, exist, that you don't have to control
51:51
everything.
51:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:53
>> Josh Packard: And in fact, you can't do everything.
51:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:55
>> Josh Packard: And it seems like we're so. It seems like we've
51:57
given over religion in a lot of ways to this sort
52:00
of capitalist ethic of, um, you know, the. The
52:04
greatest among us are the ones who control the
52:06
most variables.
52:07
>> Loren: Yes. And yes.
52:09
>> Josh Packard: We have a faith that is explicitly opposed to
52:12
that, and I think we would do well to remember it.
52:14
>> Loren: Well, that'll preach.
52:16
>> Josh Packard: I'm no preacher.
52:19
>> Loren: Uh, where can people connect with you? You
52:23
mentioned the newsletter Future of Faith.
52:25
>> Josh Packard: Yeah. So I'm the co founder of an organization
52:27
called Future of Faith, and you can certainly go
52:29
there. We try to make as much of what we do free
52:32
as possible. Um, we have an economic model that
52:35
relies on partnerships for evaluation work with
52:37
organizations who have grants. So you're not going
52:39
to come and get a sales pitch from us? There's no.
52:41
We don't have a shopping cart. You can't buy
52:43
anything. So you can sign up for stuff for free.
52:45
There's. But thanks for asking about the book. So.
52:48
Faithfulfuturesbook.com um, and the reason I want
52:52
to talk about this is that we're really trying to
52:54
do this launch differently, um, put this book out
52:57
into the world differently and trying to be as
52:59
generous as we possibly can be. So, for example,
53:02
there's free webinar that you can go and watch if
53:05
you want to learn more about the book. You can get
53:07
chapter summaries. But also, if you know somebody
53:10
who would benefit from this book, all you have to
53:11
do is drop a line to me from the form on that
53:14
page. I'll mail them a free book.
53:16
>> Loren: Wow.
53:17
>> Josh Packard: Um, if you know somebody who's doing something
53:18
amazing in ministry, you know what happens when
53:20
you write a book like this is that you end up
53:22
getting invited to speak in places. And so we're
53:24
tithing. I'm, um, tithing some of that back into
53:27
this Faithful Futures fund. So if you know
53:28
somebody who's doing something amazing in
53:30
ministry, drop me a line, tell me what they're
53:32
doing. We'll send them $250. No questions asked,
53:34
just a gift. So we would love to have more people
53:37
taking us up on that offer. Um, it's. There's no
53:41
strings attached. We don't sign them up to a
53:42
mailing list or anything like that.
53:43
>> Loren: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your
53:46
time. Really appreciate you coming down here and,
53:48
uh, safe travels on your way down to Denver from
53:51
here. And we always leave folks with a word of
53:53
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
53:55
>> Josh Packard: Thank you very much.
53:58
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
54:00
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
54:03
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54:06
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