Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / After 16 Years: What Hungary Can Teach Israel and America | Peter Arvai
Transcript
- Josh Weinberg: Shalom and welcome back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides the ocean. I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg and I'm here with my colleague and friend, Orly Erez-Likhovski coming to you from Jerusalem and from IRAC Orly, how are you? We just got through Pesach, Yom HaShoah. We're now in between the yoms, as we say, the yamim, the national observance days of Yom HaShoah, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaAtzma'ut. How are you feeling at this moment? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's been not an easy time. know, a ceasefire we just declared a couple of days ago. It seems like, I don't know, we lost track of time. And after a very, very difficult period of 40 days of war, I mean, the war in Lebanon is still going on. It's not easy. And, you know, also going back to routine is sort of unsettling. You know, we were under rockets and war and suddenly we have to go back like everything is normal. So it's a very strange time, a lot of sort of uncertainty and anxiety. But know, at least it's good to get back to some kind of normalcy. This week we went for the first time back to our offices after six weeks, met everyone in person. So that was really, really wonderful. today we're actually going to talk about something which is really exciting and inspiring, ⁓ that feels very relevant to the reality in actually both of our countries. The fall of Viktor Orbán in Hungary after 16 years of democratic backsliding. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think that what we've seen in Hungary over the past years is not ⁓ This is a steady erosion of democratic norms, weakening of institutions, consolidation of power. But recent weeks, something shifted. And the elections there that were held just a couple of days ago suggest that even after years of this kind of trajectory, change may still be possible. And I can tell you that at same time here in Israel and in other places in the world, such as the US, we are seeing also real concerns and threats to our democracy with the anti-democratic measures pushed by the government, by our government against the courts, against the attorney general, against civil society organizations, against academic institution and the media. And so I feel that this moment raises a very urgent question. Is this situation reversible here in Israel, in the US? And does Hungary suggest that trajectories like this can actually be changed? Josh Weinberg: Well a critically important question. I'm so glad that we're able to have this conversation right now. And I want to introduce and bring in Peter Arvai to the conversation. Peter, thank you so much for making time to be with us. It's wonderful to see you and to be with you. Peter, I just have to say that you and I have met and as you are, of course, our representative from Arzeinu in Hungary. I was just thinking about this one moment a few years ago. when many of us together and you and I were walking down Kaplan Street in Tel Aviv on a Saturday night. You remember it, of course, yes? Peter Arvai: Definitely, definitely. It's a beautiful memory, really a very heartwarming memory for me. Josh Weinberg: Yes. So we had just come from the Israeli Reform Movement's havdalah ceremony that we did in Peter Arvai: Has the light hostages square exactly. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yes, yes. And then and then I was walking nearby to you and. It was a very emotional moment I saw a tear running down from eyes. And I you know, Peter, what's wrong? And you just said to me, this is so magnificent, you know, ⁓ how come can't do something like this in our own in Budapest and in Hungary? in terms of mobilizing for support for democracy and protecting democratic character. And ⁓ have to do that. We're facing similar threats. So it's somewhat fortuitous now that it's us, ⁓ from the United States and from Israel looking to you to inspire us about how to carry out this kind of change. of course, Hungary has been this example that people look at and think, you know, ⁓ that really happen here. Until of course, some of it feels very, very similar in that we're seeing these patterns that are a lot closer than we'd like to admit. Now seeing what's happening there in Hungary, raises all sorts of questions. How do things get built and how do they fall apart? ⁓ how are we able to put them back together again? And I'm so interested in, in you have to say about this. Let me just give a little bit of an intro that of course, those of you who don't know Peter, he is an Hungarian public figure. a long time activist in civil society, Jewish communal life, and of course efforts to promote pluralism and minority rights. has worked in both the financial sector and academia and has been deeply engaged in Hungary's public and political life over the past decade, including serving in local government in Budapest. So Peter, you are a real insider. And of course, you're also active in the progressive Jewish leadership in Hungary and across Europe. and you bring a unique perspective on what is meant to live through democratic erosion and now potentially a moment for change. Peter, thank you so much for being with us. Let's dive right in ⁓ I want to turn back to Orly to start us off here. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, so Peter, we want to start off by taking us a little bit back a few years and to tell us before we get into the exciting change of this week, what has it meant to live in Hungary, to live in Budapest, under Orban in recent years, we said already, democratic norms have been eroded. So just give us a picture of how it felt. Peter Arvai: before starting, I would like to thank you for inviting me. And I to tell you that honestly, I was ⁓ always inspired you and by your amazing ⁓ job, both and And I don't say that by empty flattering. So really for me, it ⁓ is really something ⁓ important to be of. ⁓ of Arzeinu and of the progressive Jewish movement. Coming back to your question, well, first of all, we went that Kaplan manifestation, was already the ⁓ fourth lost ⁓ in a row. was extremely frustrating to in Hungary because it was completely falsified reality what Orbán ⁓ and the ⁓ built. everything was false. They were lying in everything and they had, as they had all the media tools, so they were able make people believe that's the reality. And ⁓ was deeply on one hand. On the other hand, it was also very to to absorb, to ⁓ digest that as they changed ⁓ laws, especially the election laws and all the conditions and they occupied all the media channels, it seemed impossible actually to change that. And even the of ⁓ last Sunday actually where Mr. Magyar got almost 70 percent of the seats in the parliament did only a little bit more than 50 percent of the votes. it shows clearly that actually the ⁓ ⁓ created in to keep in the power even if they ⁓ don't the two-thirds of votes. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow. Peter Arvai: So it seemed impossible actually to that situation. And what was also very difficult for me corruption was extremely high ⁓ and ⁓ there just more and more people collaborating. So many people actually that situation and they became part, they just wanted to ⁓ some advantages. Some got ⁓ much advantages, but people were ready to ⁓ collaborate. for me as a... as a Jew the Galut and from my Hungarian background actually, I got always the words my grandparents who were just speaking the situation where people ⁓ to collaborate ⁓ actually the regime before but especially during war. And so it just destroyed step by step everything and know where the ⁓ ⁓ actually that procedure. So it was a personal aspect that ⁓ I felt really, really bad. And Orban was playing... always the card of the religion, so he cooperated with the churches, especially with the Catholic churches, but also with Chabad. And ⁓ was the Hungarian Jewry, ⁓ even Chabad had nothing to do actually, he had no roots in Hungary, they even ⁓ took control of the Orthodoxy. it really a very feeling that ⁓ even there Jewish people who are ready to cooperate ⁓ the just some more power and especially for money. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, so Peter, that's it's it's a fascinating and it's a very complex picture that you're painting just for our listeners who may not be well into the weeds of Hungarian politics and take us back 16 years ago and just tell us what were the steps ⁓ that Orban took when he became elected and his ⁓ am saying it right? Fidesz party. What were steps that he took to make significant change Hungary's political system and how did he change democracy essentially? You mentioned the media briefly, but if you could just paint sort of a big picture for us leading ⁓ to the that just took place. Peter Arvai: Actually, I think that there were two levels they were playing on. first one, it was the communication. So he started immediately to occupy ⁓ the channels and to speak in an extremely populistic way. They made daily survey. ⁓ of everything before they created a very detailed ⁓ communication and media strategy. did it in everything. So actually, the politics were not based on principles, but only ⁓ how be popular. That was the only one thing that was important. So on one day, ⁓ they that ⁓ we are Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Peter Arvai: extremely good friend with Israel. The ⁓ day just made an ⁓ anti-Semitic campaign the election because it had some tradition they felt that it would be ⁓ that ⁓ if they creating George Soros as an enemy ⁓ that that can work. Josh Weinberg: It would play well with the voters, you're saying. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Peter Arvai: because George Soros ⁓ is a Jew and we have some traditions that Jew, a Jew is always taking advantage of everything. So was not at all based ⁓ on but yes, definitely. So ⁓ was one thing. The other ⁓ that they systematically, ⁓ the education system. Josh Weinberg: And he's Hungarian also, Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Peter Arvai: which was extremely because actually Hungarian language is a very difficult language. ⁓ people are not able to speak well ⁓ languages, you have more access to any other information resources than ⁓ the government channels. Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm-hmm. Hmm. So it works for the government again. It helps them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Peter Arvai: Definitely, yes. On the other hand, they really pushed people, especially young people, to leave the country. they were very happy that some of young people went to Europe, just because first all, ⁓ they sent back money to their parents, so it was an extra resource for the government. On the other hand, they were not here anymore to protest. to fight ⁓ against the government. And ⁓ was also a third element that ⁓ he created a very blinded financial structure. So based ⁓ financial ⁓ corruption, actually started to control ⁓ everything. And the country is not very rich, and especially on the countryside where ⁓ everybody is depending, well, a real tool ⁓ to people going ⁓ vote them. So that's ⁓ step by how they created that completely falsified reality. ⁓ And what was really that ⁓ they also a false civil So they started to create small ⁓ NGOs, their own ⁓ and they used ⁓ units ⁓ reference when they needed something to prove and they killed technically the civil society's entities ⁓ and used own entities which were completely false. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so, you know, all of this sounds very familiar from the Israeli side. I mean, I'm sure, Josh, it's familiar to you, really going against civil society and having their civil society organizations, push for their agendas, and of course, the education system, weakening the education systems, and all of this is very, very familiar, and you really paint, Peter, a very bleak picture. And my question is then, how come this victory was possible? How come Magyar... Josh Weinberg: I was gonna say. Orly Erez Likhovski: was able to pull off this sweeping victory, right? It's not the margins, it was really a sweeping victory, over two thirds ⁓ the parliament. How you explain it? How did it happen after 16 years ⁓ of as you painted, very difficult reality that really pushed away or destroyed every form of opposition? Josh Weinberg: tell us, ⁓ of our listeners may not have ⁓ Magyar's name before the election. Just tell us, because my understanding is that he came from within Orban's party, right? From Fidesz. He came from the right wing. Will you just tell us who he is and then leading up ⁓ to Orly was asking as well? Peter Arvai: and Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Peter Arvai: Well, actually he was a housewife or house husband because he was the husband of the justice minister. And he had very good positions for ⁓ They even spent before almost a decade in Brussels because of wife. So he was real... Orly Erez Likhovski: Mmm. Wow. Peter Arvai: somebody who got a lot of benefits from Fidesz. And then they divorced two and a half years. Actually at that time, a big fight started between him and his wife. And so... Actually, in the beginning, was quite unbelievable that. So it seemed a little bit like an internal fight. But then something has changed. And I also would like to add something that actually, as he won that election last Sunday, even that that win is a little bit not legal. legal in a way that the whole legislation law was prepared ⁓ order ⁓ a bigger win for those who has the ⁓ majority of votes. So actually was was un-proportional that ⁓ win, that's how the simply Fidesz has killed ⁓ itself ⁓ by own So ⁓ it was in way ⁓ a lucky lucky situation. what ⁓ is absolutely Orly Erez Likhovski: Hmm, interesting. Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow. Peter Arvai: that ⁓ he He changed something and I think that what he made really very, good was that he started to go to the countryside and he went to meet people personally. He made some 600 visits on the countryside during the last one and a half year. which is an extremely high number. ⁓ has a So in a way, ⁓ he's little bit similar to Victor Orban or ⁓ to Emmanuel for example, who ⁓ came into power in France. Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Peter Arvai: almost same way actually. ⁓ had a charisma, he was an excellent skill of speaking and he was very convincing. But where was really strong, he was able actually to let the believe that ⁓ the change possible. So that was ⁓ one element. And I also another element which is not personally to him. Orly Erez Likhovski: Mmm. Peter Arvai: A little bit more than two years ago, it was a huge scandal in Hungary because the wanted to cover up some pedophile affairs. And it ⁓ not acceptable. So was a very complex affair and I don't want to enter into the details, but ⁓ for people, ⁓ was for even for the Fidesz voters, and ⁓ it not acceptable. So something has that was morally not to be ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: It was like a watershed moment that people understood. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Peter Arvai: anymore and it started some kind of of system. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so it's really a mix of different factors, right? I the loss of faith in the previous government and also the charisma of this candidate. I understand other factors are first of all, the fact that all the opposition ran together, right? So there was a unity of forces against Orban instead of people splitting. Like we see in Israel, opposition is very split between a lot of parties instead of having one candidate that can beat. Peter Arvai: Yes. All Orly Erez Likhovski: you know, autocrat that we're trying to take out of power. Peter Arvai: Well, actually, yes, mostly, but there is one element where it was a little bit different as you described and it concerns the opposition. he rejected ⁓ to with ⁓ opposition, he said that we had the governing party Fidesz and we have the royal opposition. So he said that all ⁓ the opposition parties part the ⁓ system. he ⁓ firmly to cooperate anyone. So actually the result of that is that today we don't have old parties in the parliament what we had before, any. And it's except one which is a right-wing party and they got 6%. So, but it was also because of the Fidesz because Fidesz helped them to achieve the 5 % limit because they were hoping that maybe it can help them to create a coalition if it will be necessary. So actually it was also some local specificity that the Hungarian parliament has 200 members. They will have 141 or 42, so it's a constitutional majority. And we don't know anybody from these 141 people, nobody. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow. because all, yeah. From nowhere. Yeah, it's like, ⁓ wow, wow. Peter Arvai: was coming from somewhere. From nowhere. Yeah. So yeah, it's also a... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Peter, it's a really, first of all, your analysis is very, very helpful in helping us to understand this. I'm sort of thinking about the big picture here because as I read different opinions ⁓ this, there are some people are saying, more the left saying, see, look, if we just persevere and we push on forward, we can overturn these anti-democratic regimes or anti-democratic measures. And on some of the right, people are saying, you guys were too worried about this. You know, it's not real true authoritarianism. You don't have to get all, see, it can be undone. How is this playing out for you in terms of the things that you were really worried about in massive anti-democratic measures? And then now looking back on it, I'm not saying that everything is fine in Hungary right now, but this was a major victory, obviously. How are you feeling about the possibility ⁓ or reversing some of these really intentional, this erosion of democracy? You think now that, in of where we are now. Peter Arvai: I would like to mention two moments of the last year. The first one was the Budapest Pride event in June. Viktor Orbán and the government banned that Pride event and people went out to the street. Budapest has roughly two million inhabitants and there were 300,000 people on the street Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Peter Arvai: that beautiful ⁓ sunny day of June last year, Peter didn't say anything against the ⁓ banning he was not there. ⁓ But went out to this... Yes, yeah. And ⁓ so at that moment, people show... Orly Erez Likhovski: Hmm. Josh Weinberg: Very deliberately not there, right? Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Peter Arvai: a real force against the government and they showed clearly that there is a limit. even if they ban, ⁓ if they ⁓ to make people scared, they don't accept that a certain limit. So it was not ⁓ typical pride event because people didn't go there to real solidarity for LGBTQ community. They wanted to show solidarity for liberty, actually. and for a free society. So it was one moment. The second moment was the national holiday in last ⁓ when Magyar made a speech once again were some ⁓ almost almost 200,000 again ⁓ on the streets to ⁓ just to him and to hear his ⁓ speech and actually it showed some force so people started to that change ⁓ can possible. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Peter Arvai: I think that actually, there is, of course, there is a political side. There are ⁓ many ⁓ to how build a party, a new ⁓ and everything. But I also that there are morality. when people cannot ⁓ anymore that ⁓ is not based on ⁓ a basis, it can change things. And that's why for me it was so uplifting to be there at that event on Kaplan. what felt there there are ⁓ many people Orly Erez Likhovski: you Peter Arvai: who don't accept they ⁓ ⁓ or democratic values just ⁓ moral human So I think that on one hand it very important. What's happening now, also very interesting because he ⁓ well, be honest, since some days don't really ⁓ too much because ⁓ we are just to follow what's going on and to figure it out actually how it will be in the future. He made a huge press conference ⁓ on Monday, that took three hours. it was long press conference. some days we really ⁓ sleep too much ⁓ we just trying to follow what's on and to it out actually how it will be the future. He made a huge international press conference Josh Weinberg: Right. Right. Peter Arvai: And of course, we were just watching that. And he was speaking about many things. And for me, it was like a fairy tale because he was speaking about democratic values, about real economical changes and ⁓ very, logic and very... for me, it was like a tale because he was speaking about democratic values, about real economical changes and ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: . . Peter Arvai: important ⁓ changes about the euro, about ⁓ Hungary has to be part again ⁓ the European Union. He also mentioned ⁓ actually ⁓ relationship with Israel and to actually the democratic changes the euro, about ⁓ how Hungary to be part again ⁓ of the Union. the position of the Hungarian Jewish community. So on one hand it was really like a fairy tale. So I was just there, am I dreaming or what? I am really awake or it is just a dream. I, yeah. And so I think that actually there is, so there So I was just there, am I dreaming or what? I am really awake or it is just a dream. Josh Weinberg: Wow, wow. Wow, wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: haha haha Josh Weinberg: think we finally arrived at this moment. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Peter Arvai: is some. good intention in a general way of people. People would like just to live ⁓ they would like just ⁓ prospect, to prospect in their professional life, in their family life and it's huge energy. it's a very positive energy. And also, ⁓ that's why ⁓ told you in the beginning that for me, when the time was taking part Arzeinu and when I went to Israel almost 10 years ago and met first Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Peter Arvai: almost everybody of the Israeli Reform Movement, for me it was just also like a dream. on the other hand, it showed also that ⁓ ⁓ have an intention, actually can build something ⁓ just we have a base and it's a very base. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it seems like, you know, you when you describe the press conference, it seems like you finally have a government that sees its people and wants the good of its people. And I want you talking about these feelings to take us for a moment for the Sunday celebrations. I mean, how was the mood? I mean, we saw some pictures and videos and it was so exciting and moving. But maybe take us just tell us a little bit about how it felt. How are people feeling now in Budapest, in Hungary? Peter Arvai: And so. exhausted, on one hand and really excited on the other hand. ⁓ was really a moment of real happiness when you that there is a chance that that nightmare will really pass away you get back your normal life because it was not a normal life anymore. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Peter Arvai: It was so stressful, just gave ⁓ that can or even, and even, yes, it ⁓ was also kind of proudness that... ⁓ that you were able to give maybe just very small things, but still. And I deeply believe in the fact that has its responsibility, but everybody also has its own ⁓ to a bit. So we can do things. Maybe it seems what we are doing personally, it's just small things. But ⁓ ⁓ have to our principles and then it's time we have to move. So, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Well, that's an important lesson that everyone needs to internalize that each person can make a difference in fact, it's a small piece or ⁓ But Peter, mean, Orly was asking about the mood in Budapest. Tell us a little bit more about what the Jewish community is feeling right now in Hungary. ⁓ mentioned Chabad sort of being aligned with Orban and with Fidesz earlier. Paint is a picture because, you Budapest is such, or Hungary is such a rich, rich Jewish history. And even also, you know, from the liberal movements, know, dating back to the Neo-Logi and to the, you know, the birthplace of Theodor Herzl, like, like, where are they now? And give us a little bit of a lay of the land, if you, if you would. Peter Arvai: the Hungarian Jewelry, after the Shoah, ⁓ first of all the Shoah killed 80 % ⁓ the Hungarian Jewelry and especially ⁓ from the countryside, so mostly the Orthodox people. The Budapest Jewish community survived, most than half of that community survived after the war, but right the war, ⁓ actually, ⁓ it the transition ⁓ into the ⁓ Soviet system. ⁓ So was not possible anymore to keep the Shabbat and to have kosher, for example. ⁓ So many people, one, two or three years after the war left the country. Then ⁓ it a second wave of immigration. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: communism. ⁓ Peter Arvai: after the revolution of 56. And then it was at least 35 years of communism where actually religion in a general way was, it was not banned, you know, it was not fancy either in the eye of the, yes. So. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, not celebrated. Yeah. Peter Arvai: actually the Hungarian jewelry became very very secular. the other hand it was the the neology ⁓ the neology was cooperating ⁓ the state during all these decades so neology got all ⁓ the institutional So that's why there are synagogues, is a rabbinical school, is a hospital, there are two Jewish high schools. ⁓ the institutions were functioning and after 1990... even the states started to finance, ⁓ in a way the community, but the financing directly to the umbrella organization of the the neology and it was to the neology to a little bit those those funds if. So that's the reason why the Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Peter Arvai: the reform or the progressive communities, we have two progressive congregations existing since 33 years now, are extremely weak. Because maybe it's not easy to understand for the Americans and sorry for that, but you know, after almost four decades of communism, the capacity to self-finance a community is almost disappeared. So we don't have the sense and of course not even the money to build by our own ⁓ resources as strong or strong congregations. Orly Erez Likhovski: And Peter, how was the congregation affected by those 16 years of the Orban regime? And how do you think it's going to change now, ⁓ forward specifically for the Jewish community? Peter Arvai: That's exactly the point that actually the state ⁓ started finance the community, but at the same time, the state also started to select. The state was formally MAZSIHISZ the umbrella ⁓ and at the time, ⁓ they ⁓ gave more money to Chabad just to corrupt them. or they were asking for that money, I don't know, but actually they were cooperating very well each other. So, know, Chabad people, their traditional costume and everything, because if you look at me, I am not a Jew in the eye of a Hungarian. If you see a Chabad people, here is a Jew. So actually, they proved that Orban is not anti-Semitic. And on the other hand, they gave them a lot of money. Recently, for example, just a little bit more than one year ago, gave so much money to them that they bought an aluminium factory. I know the exact name, you know where you are making aluminium. ⁓ So we have a kosher aluminium or they have a kosher aluminium factory, which is a nightmare. It is just ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. And how you think it's gonna change now? mean, the relationship of Magyar to the Jewish community, can you say a word about that? It remains to be seen. Yeah. Peter Arvai: Well, we dream, we dream, we dream, we dream and we hope that now we can start actually some job with them and we will able to show them that the Jewry is not Chabad. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Peter Arvai: So I deeply hope that we will have ⁓ opportunity and if he will be like he seems to be, actually that would be the normal way to review the whole refinancing system ⁓ the cooperation between the different streams and the state. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, no Peter as I've been listening to you, I've been thinking about Professor Kim Elaine Shepeley. So that's an American professor who actually ⁓ what she called autocratic legalism, which is how democracies are eroded from within, which is ⁓ what you describe what Orban is doing and is really, really similar to other places like Israel. And she really ⁓ eight specific steps in that process. winning the elections democratically, then gradually you weaken the institutions that should restrict the power of the government ⁓ of course undermine the courts and appoint loyalists. And I'm sure that sounds familiar, Josh, to you too, ⁓ gaining over the media, delegitimizing opposition. ⁓ And the end, the very end, and that's sort of, think, our concern in both the US and Israel, changing the rules of the elections to make sure they remain in power. Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: I think what happened in Hungary has really, really inspired so many people around the world and especially in Israel because as we've said, you we have been fighting for the last three years ⁓ hard. Obviously we have all the wars on top of it, but ⁓ fighting for our democracy. And, you know, we are wondering, and a lot of people are talking now in Israel, whether this is also applicable at Israel and what lessons should we learn from the Hungarian victory to Israel? ⁓ Josh Weinberg: And the US, don't count us out here on that. Orly Erez Likhovski: and the US completely, completely to see how we can, first of all, maintain the hope that we can bring about change, even the face of such really, really challenging regimes. ⁓ then how do we do it? And what are the changes, obviously, between the three countries ⁓ could make a difference? again, it really, really gives me hope. ⁓ I know that we can bring about change, but really seeing this happen after we... ⁓ It was hard to believe that this is reversible. I think it's really, really inspiring. And Josh, I'm sure it's, you see this on your end as well. Josh Weinberg: Well, look, both the US and Israel are approaching elections this year. Israel for the entire Knesset and prime minister and Americans are looking at the midterm elections, both which carry ⁓ weight and very, very and very, important. And Peter, we're going to look to you to give us some inspiration as to how to make serious change and really to how to prevent the erosion of our democratic institutions because That's what's at stake right now. seeing it both in Israel. ⁓ the examples that you gave in terms of civil society and NGOs, the media, higher all of that is really like a textbook almost in terms of how it's going. But yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think we are really approaching the end of the episode. And ⁓ want to ask you, Peter, because we usually end by asking our guests, where do they find hope? Where does they find strength and optimism? But I want to ask you a slightly different question. I want to ask you ⁓ during this really difficult time of a long struggle for democracy, ⁓ did you find the strength to go on? ⁓ And what can your experience teach us on how can we until we can bring about change? So please share with us. ⁓ Peter Arvai: Well, as I said during years, I felt that it is almost impossible to change. On the other hand, we believe by faith that the moment can come. So never give up. your phrase because you cannot never know actually that's yes maybe it's not not a very concrete answer but will be a moment where to average people and sorry for calling them like that but for the people there will be a moral moment and you could know what is that small something what will make them remind that it's not what's going on. And on the other hand, I just would like to thank you again. what you gave me personally during these years. you believe what are doing and you are really on very solid moral base. And just one sentence, I know it's over time, but ⁓ ⁓ very much remember moment we together to the building of the Supreme Court, maybe ⁓ three Orly Erez Likhovski: I know. Hmm. Peter Arvai: three years ago, no, four years ago. And yes, in Jerusalem, and that beautiful actually to Ada Karmi-Melamede ⁓ And showed the water ⁓ in the And so there is a truth. Orly Erez Likhovski: In Israel, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Peter Arvai: even if it's something not concrete but still there is a truth so we should believe in one it gonna and you are doing everywhere for ⁓ everything for and and there be a result Orly Erez Likhovski: you Thank you, Peter. Thank you so much. I have to tell you, I don't know what about you, Josh. think what keeps me going is, as you said, Peter, history in trends, right? And as you said, Peter, there is this watershed moments that bring about this change and we have to remember so many good people around us. You mentioned this too, ⁓ that with us and will help us bring about change. And it's really very moving, Josh. I don't know how you feel about it, it's, yeah. Peter Arvai: Yes. Josh Weinberg: No, absolutely. And Peter, it's such an inspiring story. And I will just say what we say in Hebrew is ken yir bu. May there be more such instances like this. I'll make a video it later. Soon by us. Yes, yes, yes. Wonderful. Peter, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Orly Erez Likhovski: No, no, we say in Hebrew, be-ka-rov etz-le-nu, soon it will occur in Israel and the US, soon by us. Yeah. Peter Arvai: Yeah. Definitely, Thank you again for inviting me. I really felt privileged. Orly Erez Likhovski: for our listeners, conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. ⁓ But takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if this episode meant something to you, please share it and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, go ahead, leave a five-star review and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. If you're interested in sponsoring an episode or marking an upcoming occasion, we'd love to hear from you. And as always, if there's a topic you want us to explore, please reach out. We hope that you maybe didn't know a lot about what was going on in Hungary, and maybe now you do. So I want to thank again, Peter, and thanks to Orly, and thanks to our producer, Noam Zuckerman. all of our listeners out there, shalom. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye. Peter Arvai: Thank you.