Latest / Mythmakers / Dark Indeed Is the Hour - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 5 Ch 1

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Dark Indeed Is the Hour - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 5 Ch 1 · Mythmakers

• 0:05
  Hello and welcome to Myth Makers.
• 0:07
  Myth Makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.
• 0:14
  My name is Julia Golding.
• 0:16
  I'm an author and Tolkien enthusiast and today I'm so excited because yes we are going to do our sidecast reading our way
• 0:29
  And looking at it from the point of view of what the author is doing, what J.R.R.
• 0:34
  Tolkien is doing in this book.
• 0:37
  And we're just about to start The Return of the King.
• 0:42
  I've been looking forward to this all summer, but I'm being very measured here because I'm actually making myself read all those bits I don't go back to.
• 0:52
  And I thought I'd have a look at the synopsis.
• 0:55
  If you have a three-volumed version, like most people do, it includes a synopsis.
• 1:02
  And I thought that she is a pretty good way of introducing us to our new season because it has a pretty masterful summary of what has happened in the first two books, though oddly no mention by name of Galadriel.
• 1:16
  I noticed that on this, having thought a lot about her recently.
• 1:20
  But it ends with this rather clarion call to what's going to happen next.
• 1:25
  So here we go.
• 1:26
  This, the third and last part of...
• 1:30
  will tell of the opposing strategies of Gandalf and Sauron until the final catastrophe and the end of the great darkness.
• 1:42
  So they are telling you it's going to be okay, guys.
• 1:45
  We return first to the fortunes of battle in the West.
• 1:50
  There we go.
• 1:51
  So that's what we're doing.
• 1:53
  So one of the things that faced Sauron,
• 1:57
  Tolkien, as he started in his mind, what was book five.
• 2:01
  As many of you will know, he imagined it as one great big book, but because of paper shortages and probably publisher decisions, it was put out in three volumes.
• 2:12
  And so he still had the idea that this was the start of a new book.
• 2:16
  It was just he didn't imagine it being separate from the others.
• 2:20
  And some of you will have a single edition where it's all in one great big meaty tome.
• 2:27
  so he has chosen to start this book.
• 2:30
  We've got this braiding going on.
• 2:32
  We've seen it happen in the two towers where as characters have split off into their own parties, their own side adventures or main adventure, that the story has braided, weaving together, but we are following characters alone or in pairs.
• 2:51
  Actually, it's,
• 2:52
  In threes, in twos, basically it's been all sort of combinations.
• 2:57
  But this, what I'm trying to get to say is this is an exciting chapter, chapter one, Minas Tirith, really meaty chapter for quite long.
• 3:07
  because this is when Pippin, for the first time, is on his own as the main character.
• 3:13
  And he really has some main character energy.
• 3:17
  We get to see the world of Middle-earth from a Pippin-eyed view, and it's a delightful point of view.
• 3:25
  because you'll see as we go through this, that this chapter is a wonderfully, it's a lovely place to start.
• 3:34
  It's not too bleak, not too sad.
• 3:38
  It has this amusing tone.
• 3:40
  He finds comedy in what's going on, but people find him comic.
• 3:45
  So it's a two way street.
• 3:47
  But also there's a sternness and seriousness of purpose.
• 3:51
  So that blend of comedy and sternness is something which you see in Gandalf too, or Pippin sees in Gandalf.
• 3:59
  So in terms of the overarching lesson for an author, it's, I think in this, how to promote what has been important but not on his own leading character to that front of stage position.
• 4:17
  And what this gives you as bringing a younger, irreverent, very often outsider point of view as a way of explaining an entirely new culture to us, which is how Pippin functions in Minas Tirith.
• 4:35
  The actual content of the chapter sort of breaks down to arrival of getting to Minas Tirith, the confrontation with Denethor, and then what Pippin did next as he roves around Minas Tirith, which is great fun.
• 4:53
  Anyway, to introduce the fact that we're right there with Pippin is we have a very intimate start.
• 4:59
  He is nestling inside Gandalf's cloak.
• 5:03
  He feels safe and secure there.
• 5:04
  So though they are travelling very far, very fast, there's this wonderful warm feeling that you get at the start of that.
• 5:13
  And Tolkien doesn't spend too long telling us about this journey.
• 5:17
  He wants to get to Minas Tirith, as the chapter title promises.
• 5:21
  So Meduseld is briefly touched on, but not named.
• 5:25
  Pippin doesn't know the name, so we're not told things that he doesn't know.
• 5:29
  Yeah.
• 5:31
  And then we have this couple of days of Gandalf's ride.
• 5:37
  I always read the Lord of the Rings Companion by Hammond and Skull as I read these chapters.
• 5:44
  And they have an interesting extract from a manuscript that's in the Marquette Library over in the States, I think.
• 5:50
  showing how Tolkien plotted Gandalf's ride with revisions to match other storylines.
• 5:58
  So if anyone's out there is writing a really big, complex epic like this, you do have to take time, step aside, and actually almost have, not exactly a spreadsheet, that doesn't sound very, yeah, a spreadsheet, but a sort of pen and paper equivalent where you're mapping out everybody just to keep it on track.
• 6:19
  And it's fun to see Gandalf doing this, saying, no, not this, but that, just so that he can get everybody at the right place.
• 6:27
  And we can see him...
• 6:29
  putting this at the front of his mind because there are several moments where he touches on what Frodo is doing, which is quite a high density of mentions of Frodo for an average chapter in Lord of the Rings.
• 6:43
  But when we do get round to naming things, the naming comes thick and fast.
• 6:48
  There is the beacons and the mountains there that are named.
• 6:52
  And at the end, we get a whole list of Gondorian leaders marching into the city.
• 6:57
  So the
• 6:59
  I've always said Gandalf, that's a Freudian slip.
• 7:01
  Tolkien is having fun with his world creation, his names, which all mean something.
• 7:07
  You can dig into them if you really want to find out what he's getting at.
• 7:12
  In the case of the Beacons, he really loves this.
• 7:18
  You can tell by the way he writes about it.
• 7:21
  So the way it's introduced is subtle.
• 7:24
  So we first of all get Pippin seeing a light.
• 7:27
  He thinks, what is that?
• 7:28
  And it turns out to be the moon.
• 7:29
  And then he notices other lights on the mountains.
• 7:32
  And his response, because he's Pippin and he has no idea what's going on in this world, he says in alarm, are there dragons in this land?
• 7:41
  Wow.
• 7:42
  There kind of is, isn't there?
• 7:44
  There's a dragon lord, Denethor, in spirit.
• 7:50
  But no, there's not the actual dragons anymore.
• 7:53
  And Gandalf doesn't address that because if Pippin had listened to his stories properly, he would know that Smaug was like the last dragon.
• 8:00
  There's a lot of not listening going on with Pippin, which is part of the comedy.
• 8:05
  And so if ever that's been you in a class, Pippin is your guy in this story.
• 8:10
  Anyway, Gandalf replies in short, urgent sentences saying, war is kindled.
• 8:17
  In the film, the phrase given to Gandalf about the beacons, that all happens differently, which I'll touch on in a minute.
• 8:26
  He says hope is kindled.
• 8:28
  Gandalf's response to the beacon is saying, actually, this means war is burning.
• 8:32
  War is happening.
• 8:34
  The companion to Lord of the Rings suggests that
• 8:39
  British people reading this in the 1950s would immediately have thought of the Armada because it's part of, I think I studied it at school as well.
• 8:49
  But the beacons were lit across England, warning of the approach of the Armada.
• 8:55
  And there are other, the practice of lighting beacons before you could just ring somebody up.
• 9:01
  or send an alert through a mobile phone.
• 9:03
  Obviously, you used what could be seen from as far away as possible visual clues, and that beacons on high points make perfect sense in that world.
• 9:14
  Tolkien really got into this.
• 9:16
  There is an essay in The Unfinished Tales, which is devoted to Beacon.
• 9:22
  So if you are interested, as Tolkien was, do go away and read that.
• 9:27
  He has imagined each one.
• 9:28
  He's even imagined the lonely life of the Beacon Wardens up on these high points.
• 9:35
  It's great fun.
• 9:36
  And one of my favourite scenes in the Peter Jackson film,
• 9:39
  of the return of the king is the beacon scene.
• 9:43
  If you've watched the film, you will immediately know what I'm talking about.
• 9:47
  It has an invented episode where Pippin lights the beacon on Gandalf's, the first one of the chain at the,
• 9:57
  the ministerious end, so it happens later in this sequence of events.
• 10:02
  It's a bit worrying because he's disobeying his overlord by doing so and following Gandalf's orders, but there you go.
• 10:08
  It's a fun episode.
• 10:11
  And then the lights are lit across the mountains.
• 10:15
  And what makes it so brilliant is the soaring vision of the music and,
• 10:22
  It takes you...
• 10:24
  It's just a wonderful piece.
• 10:26
  It is my favourite scene, I think, certainly musically.
• 10:28
  That or maybe the charge of the Hiram.
• 10:32
  Close.
• 10:32
  Yeah, they're tied equal.
• 10:34
  Anyway, forget the film.
• 10:35
  I would say that the big difference that Jackson does make is that Denethor is mad from the get-go, whereas here, and he hasn't taken sufficient preparations, whereas here, the Denethor is very...
• 10:50
  crafty, he and wise in a sense.
• 10:54
  And so it's him calling for aid before it's too late.
• 10:59
  So in a way, he's less mad.
• 11:02
  But I would just say, sorry, I said I forget the film, but I just wanted to say whenever I watch that scene of the beacons, I always worry about the life of the wardens up on
• 11:16
  mountains.
• 11:18
  I think some of the places picked for the CGI beacons are not possible for fires.
• 11:24
  But anyway, even that aside, I like to find out that Tolkien too worried about what life up on a
• 11:32
  for somebody looking after a beacon.
• 11:34
  And I think just that one scene does show how, if you're doing an adaptation of a novel, how some small detail, which is a textual moment which passes quite quickly, can become a fantastic set piece in visual terms.
• 11:50
  So that's a good thing to learn from that Jackson interpolation with the beacons.
• 11:59
  But I mentioned that this is full of comedy.
• 12:01
  It's actually so many jokes in this chapter.
• 12:04
  Because after the beacons have lit, Pippin falls asleep during Gandalf's lecture.
• 12:12
  So about what the beacons meant and the history of Gondor and its customs.
• 12:17
  So if you're going to be putting in the information there, it's fun to use it for character revelation.
• 12:23
  So you've got Gandalf wanting to share his knowledge, which is good.
• 12:27
  But you also got Pippin, who's just not up to it.
• 12:29
  He's too tired.
• 12:30
  So he paid little attention is how it is put.
• 12:35
  So, yeah, Pippin is rapidly becoming my favourite hobbit.
• 12:39
  But it does allow, even that comedy, what Gandalf is saying, it does reiterate the situation and the stakes.
• 12:49
  Because Gandalf says to Pippin, you're not going to Mordor like Frodo, but to Minas Tirith.
• 12:56
  And if Gondor falls, the place you're going to, and the ring is taken...
• 13:01
  The Shire is no refuge.
• 13:03
  And Pippin rather grumpily says, well, you're not comforting me.
• 13:08
  But that's not the role of this.
• 13:10
  The author is choosing here to just remind us of the stakes because we're at the beginning of this new book.
• 13:15
  Keep on saying what the stakes are.
• 13:19
  And there's one of these first asides where we're linking to Frodo, who is looking at the same moon.
• 13:25
  So there's this little, he didn't know, but Frodo is looking at the same moon.
• 13:29
  So that's in this idea that these accounts were written later by the hobbits putting their heads together.
• 13:37
  You can imagine Tolkien thinking of a scene where they were discussing this and Frodo could say, oh, you were there, were you?
• 13:44
  I was at that same moment.
• 13:46
  standing in Ithilien or wherever he was looking at the moon.
• 13:50
  So that's a lovely sort of post-credit scene in a sense as they put this story together.
• 13:56
  So the first place they meet in Gondor, the first barrier, is the wall around the Pelennor.
• 14:02
  This doesn't make it into the film version.
• 14:05
  So I always love finding things that aren't in the film because I feel they're still mine.
• 14:10
  I haven't had images overlaid by impressive film ones.
• 14:16
  And here you've got a lovely moment where Ingold, who's like the guy in charge of repairing the wall, debates with Gandalf whether or not Pippin should be let through.
• 14:28
  Gandalf is saying, oh, he's a very brave man.
• 14:30
  You know, you've got to let him through.
• 14:33
  And Pippin takes the front.
• 14:34
  He says, I'm a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man.
• 14:39
  saved perhaps now and again by necessity.
• 14:42
  He is dead honest.
• 14:44
  And it's probably that, more than anything, that persuades Ingold that he is a good sort.
• 14:51
  He also blurts out, though, in a very Pippin way, he hasn't been known for...
• 14:57
  you know, holding his tongue, has he, about the death of Boromir.
• 15:01
  And he also mentions here his intention to offer his service.
• 15:06
  Later, Gandalf acts as if it's a surprise, but actually he's already signalling that he is coming here and wanting to be involved.
• 15:16
  So I've got a little quibble here with the designers of the film.
• 15:21
  It's very clear that the area, and there's a bigger, longer description of the land around Minas Tiris, it isn't a flat field.
• 15:33
  It's townlands, there are woods, there are orchards, there are cottages and roads and all sorts of things.
• 15:43
  I'm sure the reason it was taken to lay out a flat field is it's a lot easier.
• 15:50
  And also the places that ministeries most resemble, which are Mont Saint-Michel, Mont Saint-Michel,
• 15:59
  to a lesser extent St. Michael's Mount, are surrounded by sea, which of course is flat sand or water, depending on the stage of the tide.
• 16:06
  So that may have entered that into the designer's mind.
• 16:10
  But just as the Battle of Waterloo didn't happen on a flat field, there were all sorts of strategic places, ridges and barns and...
• 16:22
  a chateau, nor does this happen in emptiness.
• 16:28
  And I've always found that part of it doesn't read true, just a quibble.
• 16:33
  It was easier though for them to do the fighting and the CGI.
• 16:37
  So I can see why they chose to do it that way.
• 16:41
  So we're about to meet our first big city of men.
• 16:46
  It's seven walls of stone, so strong and old that it seemed to have been not builded, but carven by giants out of the bones of the earth.
• 16:57
  This is the kind of thing you find in Anglo-Saxon poetry about the remains of Roman buildings, which people look at in those days and they've forgotten where they come from and they say, oh, it was the giants who did it.
• 17:09
  So there's that sense of something Tolkien is picking up from his craft as an Anglo-Saxon specialist and applying it here.
• 17:20
  The idea that there were civilizations who were greater in the past, the giants of the past who built it.
• 17:28
  And we get one of those...
• 17:31
  piercing beauty moments.
• 17:32
  If you're looking for the key to Tolkien's writing, I think one place that you can go to is these moments of ineffable beauty.
• 17:42
  This one may have passed you by.
• 17:45
  It's on page 23 if you are in a three-volume version.
• 17:52
  It's about the Tower of Ecthelion, which is the tallest point of Minas Tirith.
• 17:59
  So he writes, then Pippin cried aloud for the tower of Ecthelion, standing high within the topmost wall, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, tall and fair and shapely, and its pinnacle glittered as if it was wrought of crystals, and white banners broke and fluttered from the battlements in the morning breeze, and high and far he heard a clear ringing as of silver trumpets.
• 18:31
  So there's so much going on in that passage But I think what I want to pull out of it Is how Tolkien will transport us there In the joy and delight of the characters But also creating this idea of high chivalry This is where Aragorn is going to be king The current occupant is a bit questionable But that is the kind of mood of an Aragorn kingship Is that
• 18:56
  high and far above everything else.
• 19:01
  Tolkien gives us a long passage about how Minas Tirith is organised.
• 19:08
  I find this passage quite hard to understand.
• 19:11
  It's absolutely correct.
• 19:12
  If you really sit down and think about it or look at one of his sketches or something, you can see what he's getting at.
• 19:19
  But I was very thankful in this case to the films for making sense of the pinnacle of rock that cuts through the centre of Minas Tirith with the top layer being the flat piece at the top like a deck of a ship and how the
• 19:33
  The gates strategically aren't one after another, but if you're an enemy, you have to fight your way up the layers.
• 19:39
  So we all kind of got that in our heads now, but it was – well, I think when I first read it before any of the films or anything, before seeing any other input, I found it quite hard to imagine.
• 19:50
  But it is –
• 19:52
  absolutely clear in Tolkien's mind.
• 19:53
  It was just my slowness as a reader.
• 19:56
  So I've now got to grips with Minas Tirith.
• 19:59
  So this is a chapter, as I've mentioned, which is seen from the point of view of Pippin, who's never been to a city of men like this.
• 20:06
  All he knows about men is, I guess, Bree and then some ruins.
• 20:11
  So he's got limited experience.
• 20:15
  Though I suppose you could argue that he saw Isengard, but he would have associated that with wizards, not men.
• 20:25
  Anyway, so for Pippin, he's wowed by this.
• 20:29
  But there's a narratorial sort of thought put in here.
• 20:33
  which is yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay.
• 20:40
  So we have a kingdom that's ripe for falling.
• 20:44
  And this is adding that sense of there needs to be renewal or loss or the whole civilization has gone.
• 20:53
  And it's sort of quite haunting, this idea of all these empty buildings.
• 20:58
  And we get another link here to Frodo, just to remind us where we are.
• 21:03
  Frodo and Sam, Sam isn't mentioned, but we know he's there, are in that bit where they are with Faramir walking through Ophelion.
• 21:13
  That's the, or he's just leaving Faramir.
• 21:17
  For the reader, the last big culture of men that we met was Medusels, which had another beautiful description of the arrival at the main centre of power.
• 21:28
  But we get the sense that
• 21:31
  in Gondor that it's just so much bigger, so much on a huge, huge scale, older.
• 21:40
  And it's probably good that we approach them that way around.
• 21:42
  If you're thinking about your various cultures, if you're a writer, do it that way.
• 21:47
  So it's not a letdown when you go to a smaller culture, go to, go to the sort of impressive one and then go to the super impressive one.
• 21:58
  And one of the sort of pleasures here for Tolkien buffs is seeing the livery and the guards around the Court of the White Tree.
• 22:09
  Their surcoat, which is like a tabard or a sort of thing they wear over, their armour, which has a white tree on it.
• 22:17
  And this sparks a long history of trees.
• 22:21
  I won't bore you with that, but it goes right back to Numenor and before that to the Undying Lands.
• 22:29
  And because we're with Pippin, he's asking the questions that we as readers might want to ask.
• 22:36
  Because he goes through a courtyard in the midst of which stood a dead tree,
• 22:41
  And the falling drops dripped sadly from its barren and broken branches back into the clear water.
• 22:49
  Another hint here that Tolkien's never far away from alliteration.
• 22:54
  And Pippin is putting that together with the rhyme that Gandalf had been chanting about seven stones, seven stars and one white tree.
• 23:04
  So if we haven't already leapt ahead or first time of reading, he is helping us put these things together because that is what he is thinking.
• 23:14
  So they're about to go and see Denethor, who is a very different kettle of fish to the king of Rohan.
• 23:24
  And Gandalf says, be careful of your words, Master Peregrine.
• 23:29
  Say nothing.
• 23:30
  And he has a list of things he shouldn't talk about.
• 23:33
  We all know he is on a hiding to nowhere with Pippin, who does blurt out things.
• 23:41
  But the film, of course, makes great fun of this moment in brief.
• 23:46
  And you'll see how a film cuts to the heart, cuts much shorter and longer passage that a book would do in full.
• 23:54
  But what this version, the book version, proper version or the first version does is it's like a wake up call.
• 24:05
  Because when Gandalf mentions Aragorn's claim on the kingship, Pippin goes, what?
• 24:13
  Yeah, kingship?
• 24:15
  And that gets Gandalf's answer, if you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep, wake up now.
• 24:25
  Sometimes readers need to be reminded of the plot.
• 24:29
  And this is a funny and clever way of reminding us that actually the idea of the returning king is more than just some, you know, waved in with cheers.
• 24:40
  There are problems happening.
• 24:42
  within the idea of a new order coming in to take over, or the old order, I should say, returning to take over from the interim leader.
• 24:51
  So then we enter into the monumental hall of Minas Tirith.
• 25:01
  There's lots of use of black in...
• 25:05
  Minas Tirith.
• 25:07
  So black isn't only a colour associated with the Dark Lord.
• 25:10
  We've got black marble.
• 25:13
  Black is the colour on which the silver tree is shown on the standard.
• 25:17
  But there is also colour here.
• 25:20
  That's something that was sort of left out of the sort of startling envisaging of it in the set design of the film.
• 25:27
  So it's worth going back just to read that to see what Tolkien thought as opposed to what set designers thought initially.
• 25:34
  Because you've got great capitals carved into many strange figures of beasts and leaves.
• 25:39
  And far above in shadow, the wide vaulting gleamed with dull gold, inset with flowing traceries of many colours.
• 25:46
  So what they did get right is there's nothing on the walls.
• 25:51
  That lovely phrase of Tolkien here is storied webs, tapestries with stories on them.
• 25:58
  So it is bleak in that sense, but there is more colour here than the set design suggested.
• 26:03
  But they're going for a particular impact, which I think, and the sort of, you can see why you go for that.
• 26:10
  There are monumental buildings, particularly in Italy and France, that have that sort of black and white colour.
• 26:17
  So it works very well as a sort of setting it apart from other places, too.
• 26:22
  Pippin is reminded of the Argonath.
• 26:24
  That's a, again, Tolkien is ringing this tune here that these kings are older, greater, vaster, like the giants who people thought may have built the city.
• 26:40
  And then there's this phantom, now we're in the sort of meat of the chapter,
• 26:46
  Why spend all this time about creating this monumental setting?
• 26:50
  That's because we've got like a Shakespearean clash of leaders, clash of kings in a sense.
• 26:57
  And poor Pippin is in the middle of this.
• 27:01
  Denethor sort of lays out...
• 27:06
  why he is feeling so pessimistic.
• 27:10
  He says, less now to me is that darkness, the darkness threatening him from the east, than my own darkness.
• 27:18
  Yep, he doesn't say it, but he is a depressed and grief, driven mad by grief king.
• 27:25
  And we also get a mention here of Faramir.
• 27:28
  So it's nice to have these little reminders of the connection between
• 27:31
  Faramir, the character we saw with Frodo and Sam and his father.
• 27:38
  By the way, this horn that has turned up, the one that was washed over the force of Rauros and ended up on Denethor's lap, which Faramir mentioned to Frodo, there's this little Tolkienian aside here about how it belonged to Varondil, who was a steward.
• 27:59
  And I looked him up and it was quite fun because Varondil, the hunter, who got this horn from a sort of big...
• 28:08
  Buffalo type cow Cattle Probably a better word than cow Anyway he reigns 1998 to 2029 in the third age So basically If you're thinking about us being in the third age He's our steward Helps us remember him
• 28:27
  The turn here, so we've got these two forces, Gandalf on one hand and Denethor on the other.
• 28:34
  And Pippin is the one who sort of throws them out of balance because he makes this offer of service.
• 28:43
  But his motive for it is interesting, for pride stirred strangely within him.
• 28:48
  You're going to see how different that is from Merry's offer to the King of Rohan.
• 28:54
  for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice.
• 29:02
  So he's not attracted to Denethor, the man, as leader.
• 29:07
  He feels adept.
• 29:10
  He wants to assert the worthiness of hobbits immediately.
• 29:15
  And no doubt there is a love and respect for Boromir there as well.
• 29:21
  And he understands the stakes.
• 29:23
  He's been told by Gandalf that this is the key point in the battle.
• 29:28
  So he wants to have part of it.
• 29:31
  And he wrongfoots Denethor to the point that Denethor gives a pale smile on a very unsmiling face.
• 29:39
  And Denethor's response is, looks may belie the man or the halfling, which is funnily enough what Gandalf said to Ingold just a few pages ago.
• 29:48
  They have a lot in common, as this chapter shows.
• 29:52
  They are both stern and astute leaders when needs be.
• 29:56
  And the pledge is one which is drawn again from the sort of reading.
• 30:02
  You can find these kind of pledges in the literature that Tolkien taught.
• 30:06
  But it has a definite edge, doesn't it?
• 30:10
  Where the steward says that oath-breaking is rewarded with vengeance.
• 30:15
  So there's a definite edge.
• 30:18
  you know, not much of a carrot and quite a lot of stick in this pledge.
• 30:24
  And this brings us into what I think is a kind of joust between the
• 30:32
  Denethor and Gandalf.
• 30:33
  Because we know what Pippin's saying.
• 30:36
  We've read the story.
• 30:38
  So that's not repeated other than an element of where Pippin is skirting around things.
• 30:45
  So he doesn't give too much away.
• 30:48
  But mostly what we're taking away from this encounter is the character dynamics.
• 30:54
  And if you think about the events that are about to unfold, it's really important that we understand how powerful Denethor is.
• 31:03
  And so Denethor turned his dark eyes on Gandalf.
• 31:07
  And now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire drawn from eye to eye that might suddenly burst into flames.
• 31:23
  Some of the old Renaissance pictures of, I'm thinking of particularly ones of the Annunciation where the angel Gabriel comes to Mary.
• 31:31
  You can see a sort of line in that picture, eye line.
• 31:35
  It's literally a line between the two eyes.
• 31:38
  This is a smoldering, fiery one.
• 31:41
  So that's the kind of iconography that he has in mind there.
• 31:46
  And Pippin has taken on the message that the looks belie the character.
• 31:51
  Because though he says that he's thinking that Denethor looks on the surface more sort of kingly, he sensed that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom and a majesty that was veiled.
• 32:07
  That's on page 29.
• 32:09
  So maybe Pippin is a little bit of our, not exactly a fool, but he's our comic relief, isn't he?
• 32:15
  But he is growing in wisdom and perception.
• 32:18
  He's growing up.
• 32:20
  He's 29, not quite yet.
• 32:22
  So that's like just before he comes of age at 33.
• 32:29
  But he's growing up and growing into his role.
• 32:33
  And he also begins to wonder about wizards.
• 32:36
  He has been a bit slow on the uptake, but he's getting there, isn't he?
• 32:40
  He asks himself, how old is Gandalf?
• 32:44
  I suppose what you can think is, is there things in your own life that you take for granted?
• 32:47
  Then suddenly one day you think, okay, well, how did mum and dad meet?
• 32:53
  how did so-and-so behave in the war?
• 32:57
  You know, those sorts of things where you suddenly think, I've known this person all my life.
• 33:01
  What is going on behind them?
• 33:02
  And that's the kind of thing that Pippin is getting to grips with.
• 33:06
  He's changing, which is always interesting to see in a character.
• 33:10
  So after Denethor is the one who loses this staring competition...
• 33:16
  He actually lies.
• 33:17
  That's the first thing he does.
• 33:19
  He says, though the stones be lost, they say.
• 33:22
  He's saying, he's giving clues against his own wish that he has one of these seeing stones.
• 33:30
  But he's lying.
• 33:31
  He hasn't.
• 33:32
  He's pretending they're all lost.
• 33:34
  And Gandalf is on to him, though he may not know exactly about the stone, because he says something very harsh, which is you can use even your grief as a cloak.
• 33:44
  He's warning Denethor, and I think Denethor respects him for that, that he's got his number.
• 33:51
  And then we get to two counterclaims.
• 33:53
  We've got Denethor saying he sees no higher purpose than defending Gondor.
• 33:59
  So we can understand what he's actually up to.
• 34:03
  But Gandalf says that in his charge, not just Gondor, all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care.
• 34:15
  And he goes on, and as for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish.
• 34:23
  If anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit, I shall
• 34:28
  and flower again in times to come, for I also am a steward.
• 34:34
  Did you not know?
• 34:35
  And with that he turned and strode from the hall, with Pippin running at his side.
• 34:42
  So if you think about how this plays out, you've got Denethor seated.
• 34:46
  He's not rising to greet him or doing anything that is keeping his sort of seniority in this hall.
• 34:56
  And Gandalf is the one who puts the phone down.
• 34:58
  You know, he's the one who ends the call.
• 34:59
  He's the one who ends the meeting, which is a power move.
• 35:03
  And you can see this playing out between these two.
• 35:07
  And that little dig about, well, if Gondor goes, there's still other things to fight for.
• 35:12
  So it's actually his giving the arguments against the utter despair because Denethor equates the loss of Gondor with the loss of any reason to live, which is one of the reasons why he tries to commit suicide later.
• 35:28
  So this discussion is relevant to what happens next.
• 35:34
  Poor old Pippin.
• 35:35
  So he runs out with Gandalf thinking, oh, I really messed up, didn't I?
• 35:38
  And he thinks Gandalf is cross with him.
• 35:40
  But Gandalf isn't cross with him.
• 35:42
  He's just, I reckon he's in a mood with Denethor, if anything.
• 35:46
  Anyway, so when Pippin says, you know, did I make a mistake?
• 35:52
  What did I do?
• 35:53
  You know, how did I do?
• 35:55
  Gandalf's response is laughter.
• 35:59
  which is such a lovely grandfatherly response.
• 36:02
  In fact, their relationship is very, starting with that tenderness, there is, Gandalf's taken Pippin under his wing, hasn't he?
• 36:09
  He's helping him grow up, but he's also being loving towards him.
• 36:13
  And he's able to see the humour in the situation.
• 36:19
  of Pippin being stuck between what Gandalf calls two such terrible old men.
• 36:24
  Giving a character self-knowledge of their own flaws and frailty and how they appear to other people, able to imagine somebody else looking at them, is a really attractive and key quality of essentially good characters.
• 36:43
  And Pippin gets the message.
• 36:49
  He sees that under all there was a great joy, a fountain of mirth, enough to set a kingdom laughing were it to gush forth.
• 37:01
  So that laughter in the heart of Gandalf is absolutely key.
• 37:05
  Laughter against what Sauron is offering is one of the sort of main differences between the two sides in many ways.
• 37:16
  And Gandalf goes on to say that the offer of service was well done.
• 37:22
  He approved.
• 37:25
  And he comes up with this image, which actually is an image about what's going to happen over this part of the book, how Aragorn and Gandalf are going to think about what they're doing, their strategy.
• 37:39
  He says, the board is set, the pieces are moving, referring, of course, to chess.
• 37:46
  So Gondor's got stuff to do.
• 37:48
  So off he goes, leaving Pippin.
• 37:51
  And Pippin falls in with someone who has been sent to show him around with Beragond.
• 37:58
  Now Beragond is a lovely character.
• 38:00
  He's not in the film, so he's ours.
• 38:02
  He's still a book character.
• 38:05
  And he's a guard in the city in the service of Gondor.
• 38:12
  And he takes Pippin with him and shows him around and takes him to the stable and to the mess and so on.
• 38:20
  What's so lovely here is we're seeing Pippin in men's company as an equal.
• 38:26
  And the first thing, of course, Pippin asks about is breakfast.
• 38:29
  And there's this wonderful comic, comically serious moment where the response is, Berrigond looked at him gravely.
• 38:38
  An old campaigner I see.
• 38:41
  An army marches on its stomach.
• 38:44
  So there's that moment there where he gets respect for what is such a hobbit-y thing, is to say, where's breakfast?
• 38:51
  See what I mean about this lovely tone between the sort of comedy and seriousness that happens in this chapter.
• 38:58
  So we get a visit to Shadowfax, which is a lovely moment because we see Pippin talking to Shadowfax and treating him as an equal.
• 39:06
  And it's clear that Shadowfax understands.
• 39:10
  And then they go and look out upon the plenum fields from up on top of the tower.
• 39:17
  And what I wanted just to highlight here is I was listening to this in preparation to this.
• 39:23
  And as I was listening to the chapter being read by Andy Serkis, this moment had an almost vertiginous thing where they go, you look at the banner.
• 39:32
  And then you swoop down to next look at Valley Bottom.
• 39:36
  And if you're thinking about this in your imagination, it gives you the sense of the height that Pippin is standing on.
• 39:42
  And this is where you get the evidence that Polenor is not empty, going back to my earlier point.
• 39:48
  But also, importantly, the evacuation of non-fighters.
• 39:51
  In the film, perhaps because they wanted mixed...
• 39:55
  um background actors they have all the women and children still there young children here they're being evacuated which actually makes a lot more sense um in the sense of how do you protect your population while you move them out of like evacuation during the second world war you move them out of the place that's about to be attacked um
• 40:18
  And Beragon says, this is a lovely phrase, what's going on, what Pippin can sense is the deep breath before the plunge.
• 40:29
  This chapter is full of such wonderful little phrases and moments.
• 40:33
  Some of them are put into the film because they're so good.
• 40:37
  Not with the same characters.
• 40:39
  And there's another clue here to what's going on with Denethor because Beragon says that Denethor spends nights up in his tower wrestling with Denethor
• 40:54
  Sauron and Thorpe or something, I think it's put.
• 40:57
  And then he kind of lays a red herring and said, oh, maybe he heard it from Faramir.
• 41:02
  But anyway, these hints about what's going on is they're aware the corsairs of Umbar are approaching.
• 41:08
  So there's a sea invasion threat as well as the land army.
• 41:14
  And Beragon sums it up with, here will the hammer stroke fall hardest.
• 41:19
  So Pippin has found himself on the anvil.
• 41:22
  There's a moment as there's an overflight of an Asgol where they feel despair and sadness and frustration.
• 41:32
  feeling they can't win.
• 41:34
  And this is a Pippin hero moment.
• 41:38
  He's got hero energy in this chapter because he rallies and says, no, my heart will not yet despair.
• 41:46
  He's clinging on.
• 41:47
  Gandalf's got a plan.
• 41:48
  Frodo's still in the game and so on.
• 41:50
  But he does go on to say, waiting on the edge of a battle
• 41:56
  That I can't escape is worst of all.
• 41:59
  That's another line nicked by the film, put somewhere else.
• 42:02
  Not nicked, used.
• 42:04
  Used by the film and put somewhere else.
• 42:06
  But that idea of the deep breath before the plunge, waiting on the edge of battle, this is what this chapter is about.
• 42:15
  And he picks up Gandalf's phrase about the chessboard.
• 42:20
  He feels like a pawn, but on the wrong chessboard.
• 42:24
  That's so sweet.
• 42:25
  And so Pippin.
• 42:26
  Of course, as fate has it, the Valar have it.
• 42:30
  He's on the right chessboard, but he feels in the wrong place, which I think is, he's such a relatable character.
• 42:38
  And we go back to our lighter moments in this chapter where he walks through the city and everyone's calling him the Prince of Halflings, which I think he quite enjoys, but he can't bring an army of halflings to help and he's quick to try and diffuse those rumours.
• 42:59
  He recognises that his actual main problem is that he might let his tongue wag too much because he really likes all of Berrigan's army mates.
• 43:08
  Anyway, he comes across another character in his wanderings.
• 43:13
  He comes across Bergil, who is Berrigan's son, who Berrigan just sent him down, if he's lonely, to find Berrigan.
• 43:21
  Nice to have another character not taken by the films because we can just have our own minds about him.
• 43:28
  And here, whereas Pippin may have amused other characters such as Gandalf, here it's Pippin's turn to be amused because Burgill, this 10-year-old lad, is sort of challenging him as a boy-to-boy thing with a wrestling challenge.
• 43:47
  And there's this very funny interchange, which always makes me smile, where Pippin completely understands the lad.
• 43:54
  And he doesn't tell him off.
• 43:57
  He teases him about this.
• 44:00
  And when he eventually says that he's been sent by Berrigan, he does it this way.
• 44:06
  His father says, if you would prefer it to standing me on my head, you might show me round the city for a while and chill my loneliness.
• 44:16
  So, you know, it's such a lovely moment.
• 44:19
  He's such a friendly extrovert, is our Pippin.
• 44:23
  So he's able to do Bergl a solid by taking him outside the walls because he is 29 and a member of the guard.
• 44:32
  So he's able to do that.
• 44:35
  And we get the arrival of the leaders.
• 44:37
  I mentioned we got a roll call of names, which don't mean very much to us here.
• 44:42
  But it is the idea of sketching out this wider world of the other lands.
• 44:47
  Gondor isn't just a single city.
• 44:50
  And it's sad to think that many of these leaders' names only appear again in the list of the fallen in the poem that is after the Battle of Plenalfields.
• 45:03
  And so Pippin is in a more sombre mood when he sees that not enough help has arrived and there's a dramatic sunset.
• 45:10
  He says, so ends a fair day in Roth, which typical of this chapter, Burgle turns to a joke thinking about he'll get in trouble if he is late back home.
• 45:21
  The sort of the kid breaking curfew idea.
• 45:26
  And in another echo of the period in which this book is written, there is a blackout instituted in Minas Tirith, no lights to be shown from the outside walls.
• 45:39
  Very much, you can feel the shadow of the Second World War over this book.
• 45:46
  And the very last note is to sort of take us down from these amusing moments to a sense of, yes, we are in the deep breath before the plunge.
• 45:53
  Because Gandalf, who Pippin wakes up and finds pacing in the room they share, Gandalf says there will be no dawn.
• 46:03
  And that's where this chapter rests.
• 46:05
  It's a lovely chapter full of stuff, really meaty.
• 46:08
  And...
• 46:10
  I think it's just brilliantly put together.
• 46:13
  So the next chapter takes us back away from Minas Tiris, back to Aragorn and Merry and Legolas and Gimli.
• 46:24
  And I think one of the really fun things about The Return of the King is what a varied diet we get in these chapters.
• 46:30
  We're never spending too long in any one place.
• 46:33
  So I'm really looking forward to going back to Meet Merry and Aragorn and co. again.
• 46:39
  So thank you very much for listening.
• 46:47
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• 46:50
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• 46:53
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• 46:58
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• 47:06
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• 47:10
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