Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Product Designer: Worshipping at the Altar of Figma

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Product Designer: Worshipping at the Altar of Figma · Roast the Post Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_00: I brought you an interesting job posting this week, Paul.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: I love interesting.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Love interesting.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you how I
0:19
SPEAKER_00: found it.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: I was perusing Reddit as one does, and somebody had posted
0:27
SPEAKER_00: screenshots of this job posting, and I was able to find it.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: It's not an active
0:32
posting and not every one that we share is,
0:33
but I was able to find it and what
0:41
SPEAKER_00: struck me was not so much the posting itself, but part of the
0:47
SPEAKER_00: application process.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna get into that a little bit too, because I
0:52
SPEAKER_00: think that it changes for me anyway, it changed how I felt about the job
0:59
SPEAKER_00: posting.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, credit to Reddit for this one, but it was in the,
1:04
SPEAKER_00: what is it called?
1:04
SPEAKER_00: The Subreddit "Recruiting Hell", which I spent a lot
1:10
SPEAKER_00: of time on, because of the nature of what we're doing here.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: And they've got some
1:16
SPEAKER_00: good ones.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Some...
1:17
SPEAKER_00: I question whether or not they're real.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: I think
1:21
maybe some people just make some up,
1:23
but this one I was able to verify and find
1:28
SPEAKER_00: and rabbit-hole all about the company and and everything.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: So, that's the
1:35
SPEAKER_00: background of it...
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Reddit, like Reddit hell.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that there's...
1:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that there's a
1:45
SPEAKER_01: bunch of stuff on there that's just completely fabricated, which to me is
1:48
SPEAKER_01: hilarious.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your
1:52
SPEAKER_01: motivation for fabricating stuff on Reddit?
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Are you doing it for the
1:55
SPEAKER_01: upvotes?
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Like what?
1:55
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe it's just for
2:02
SPEAKER_00: attention.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Maybe trying to create a viral moment, trying to have community.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: But I visit it every...
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I visit Reddit every
2:11
once in a while and I look in the human resources Subreddit,
2:15
because sometimes
2:16
SPEAKER_00: you know again there's good community there.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: People are asking some good
2:19
SPEAKER_00: questions.
2:19
It gives me inspiration for what I could write mySubstack posts
2:23
SPEAKER_00: about.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes I just genuinely want to help.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Somebody wrote
2:28
something about how doing layoffs and terminations is so hard
2:31
and how do we
2:32
SPEAKER_00: how can we make them a little bit more human?
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, "Oh, I wrote an
2:37
SPEAKER_00: article about that.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Let me share it."
2:39
SPEAKER_00: And I was, you know, just this about
2:42
SPEAKER_00: learning from my mistakes that I've made in my career when it comes to
2:45
SPEAKER_00: terminations.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be a list of like do's and don'ts, but just a
2:50
reminder that we are humans and how we can bring humanity into
2:53
the process
2:54
SPEAKER_00: while remaining legally compliant.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: And so it was...
2:55
SPEAKER_00: I felt like it was really
2:57
SPEAKER_00: aligned with the question that they were struggling with.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: and then I also
3:02
said that if you don't feel comfortable clicking on a post,
3:06
let me know and I
3:07
SPEAKER_00: can screenshot or however you want me to share it with you.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: And some people
3:11
SPEAKER_00: commented.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: There were some generally positive feedback, but one person was
3:15
SPEAKER_00: like, "This article is unfortunate, gross, just gross."
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So then I went back to read it because I was like, "What did I say?
3:24
SPEAKER_00: That was so
3:26
SPEAKER_00: gross."
3:26
SPEAKER_00: But like honestly, it wasn't.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: It's just
3:29
SPEAKER_00: stories about terminations gone wrong or things that I
3:33
wish I would have done differently,
3:35
but nothing in it was like gross or mean or
3:39
SPEAKER_00: anything.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: It's just one person sharing a learning moment.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: so then I reminded
3:44
SPEAKER_00: myself that it was Reddit.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: It's Reddit.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Like...
3:47
SPEAKER_00: don't worry about it.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: So... haters gonna hate, no matter what you do.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Haters gonna hate.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's wild out there.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: I try not to go there
3:58
too frequently,
4:00
but again for the purposes of mySubstack and for this
4:05
SPEAKER_00: podcast, it can be helpful to visit in small doses.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Let's go over the Roasty Profile.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: The job title is Product Designer.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: The
4:19
SPEAKER_00: report-to title is unknown.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: company size 201-500.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: The industry is Hospitals and Health- care.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
4:28
SPEAKER_00: They connect
4:30
SPEAKER_00: patients and families with dedicated healthcare advocates like nurses and
4:33
SPEAKER_00: care specialists who guide them through the healthcare system to improve
4:38
SPEAKER_00: outcomes and ensure they don't fall through the cracks.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Love that.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Head
4:43
SPEAKER_00: office location is Redwood City, California.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Job location is Remote-US.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Geographical operating area is USA.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: And the job type is full-time.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Got it?
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Mhm.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Got it.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's go into it.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Paul, as everyone knows, has not seen this in
5:02
advance and I have selected bits and pieces that I find to be
5:06
interesting and
5:07
SPEAKER_00: worth further discussion.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm not going to read through everything, but
5:14
SPEAKER_00: just the highlighted parts.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So, "About the Company", it starts with "Healthcare in
5:18
SPEAKER_00: the US is fundamentally broken.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: The system is so complex that 88% of US
5:23
SPEAKER_00: adults do not have the healthcare literacy necessary to navigate it
5:28
SPEAKER_00: without help.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: This company cuts through the red tape of healthcare by pairing
5:32
SPEAKER_00: patients with expert advocates and giving them the tools to make better
5:37
SPEAKER_00: decisions and get better outcomes.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: The company isn't a place to coast,
5:42
SPEAKER_00: though.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: We're here to redefine healthcare, and that demands urgency,
5:46
SPEAKER_00: precision, and heart.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: If you're looking to stretch yourself, sharpen your edge,
5:50
and do the best work of your life alongside a team that cares
5:54
deeply,
5:54
then
5:55
SPEAKER_00: you're in the right place.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: We're intense and we like it that way."
6:00
SPEAKER_00: So, that's the
6:01
about the company and normally we don't spend a lot of time in
6:03
that space,
6:03
but
6:05
SPEAKER_00: just wondering if anything stood out to you.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: If there was anything that you
6:09
SPEAKER_00: liked or didn't like in that opener.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: That was that was really well written.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: That was quite compelling.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: that is probably one of the best
6:20
SPEAKER_01: About the Company / Mission Alignment Statements that I think we've
6:25
come across in doing the show the last...
6:26
like,
6:27
what,
6:27
it's been four months now.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: it's one of the best that we've come across.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: It was... it was really good.
6:34
They got my attention right up front when they said healthcare
6:38
in the USA is
6:41
SPEAKER_01: broken.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: I think that everybody can agree that that's the case, and you
6:44
know like not to throw shade because we're Canadians,
6:46
and we've got our own
6:47
SPEAKER_01: challenges with our healthcare system.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: But they were
6:52
SPEAKER_01: really on point by saying it's broken.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's fix it.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: and they kind of said,
6:57
SPEAKER_01: we're on a mission.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: If you want to do work that is meaningful to you for
7:02
SPEAKER_01: this purpose then join us.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: That was great.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: that was a breath of fresh
7:09
SPEAKER_01: air.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: They did say also, "You're not going to coast."
7:12
SPEAKER_01: That was honest.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: air. They did say also, "You're not going to coast." That was honest.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: That was good.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm already kind of feeling with this one that it's going to
7:18
SPEAKER_01: be this job, this person, they're going to be in kind of a crazy role and
7:21
SPEAKER_01: there's going to be a lot of stuff happening.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Whether or not it's
7:29
SPEAKER_01: out-of-control chaos or managed chaos, I don't know.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: Let's carry
7:32
SPEAKER_01: on.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: But strong start.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, strong start.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: What an opener.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: I
7:37
SPEAKER_00: really appreciate that it's a mission-driven organization and you can
7:42
SPEAKER_00: get the feel of that right from the get-go.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: And I do appreciate the honesty
7:45
SPEAKER_00: too, right?
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Like if you want to go somewhere and you are just going to
7:50
have like a more chill,
7:51
relaxed job,
7:52
then you know from the beginning that
7:54
SPEAKER_00: thisn't for you and I wouldn't bother applying if I didn't feel like I
8:00
SPEAKER_00: had the capacity to give it everything.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: They're they're telling you that... straight up.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I appreciate it.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it's super honest when we talk about infusing a job posting with
8:14
SPEAKER_00: your culture.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: That's what they're doing here.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to specifically
8:19
SPEAKER_00: say we are a culture of blah blah blah blah blah, it's very evident
8:25
SPEAKER_00: there.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I really appreciate that too.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: It goes into About the Role.
8:31
As a Product Designer at the company,
8:33
you are responsible for bringing value
8:34
SPEAKER_00: to our users by designing the healthcare experience of the future.
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SPEAKER_00: You will be
8:39
SPEAKER_00: expected to distill complex ideas into beautiful, usable products.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: A role that
8:44
SPEAKER_00: requires equal parts clarity and creativity.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: You'll be held to high
8:48
SPEAKER_00: standards, but you will do some of the best work of your life here.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: This role
8:52
is for the hungry,
8:53
the ambitious,
8:54
the curious,
8:55
and those who don't shy away
8:56
SPEAKER_00: from feedback.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm going to stop there.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: I know I'm breaking it up
8:59
into really small chunks,
8:59
but just curious if you had any initial thoughts
9:04
SPEAKER_00: or if you wanted to move forward after that.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: It was definitely aligned with what they said in the "About the Company"
9:11
SPEAKER_01: / "Purpose" kind of statement.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Definitely aligned.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: For a Product
9:16
Designer,
9:16
and they...
9:18
it sounds to me like they know their audience,
9:20
they know
9:21
SPEAKER_01: their target market for this role.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: people who are really good
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Product Designers, they don't get into it to, if you're a digital Product
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Designer, they don't get into it to push pixels around the screen.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Really
9:36
SPEAKER_01: good Product Designers, it's the same for tangible Product Designers.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: except it's not pixels, it's, you know, other stuff.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: But you... really good
9:46
Product Designers get into product design to make lasting
9:53
differences with
9:54
SPEAKER_01: the users of those products.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: So really good Product Designers tend to be really
9:59
SPEAKER_01: heavy on user experience research.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: They tend to be really heavy on testing.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: They
10:03
SPEAKER_01: tend to be really heavy on prototyping and understanding the
10:08
market,
10:08
understanding the constraints,
10:09
understanding,
10:10
kind of,
10:11
the rules of play.
10:12
So the first sentence there tells me that this company knows
10:15
that,
10:15
and they've
10:16
SPEAKER_01: got a really good bead on who they're after.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: That's my thought right now on
10:20
SPEAKER_01: those... three bullet points and my thoughts were longer than the three
10:23
SPEAKER_01: bullet points.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: So, either I talked too much or it was really good.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Not sure.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: No, I agree with you and I think that you raised something important.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you will see the job posting have complete mismatches.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: There isn't alignment.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like they had one part and then they copied
10:40
SPEAKER_00: and pasted something from maybe a different company's job posting of a
10:45
SPEAKER_00: similar type role, and it doesn't flow there.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: There's that lack of alignment
10:50
SPEAKER_00: and so far this is not that.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I agree and I guess we'll see if
10:55
SPEAKER_00: that flows throughout the rest of it.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: We're going to go into the "Who Are You
11:02
SPEAKER_00: and What You'll Do" section.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: So who are you?
11:03
SPEAKER_00: You are a talented designer who
11:07
SPEAKER_00: consistently delivers the highest quality work on timelines that would be
11:11
SPEAKER_00: unrealistic for most others.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: You get a rush from seeing your designs come to
11:16
SPEAKER_00: life with real users.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: You take pride in your creative vision, execution, and
11:21
SPEAKER_00: communication skills, and you absorb feedback exceptionally well.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: You enjoy
11:25
SPEAKER_00: taking ownership and are stifled by large organizations.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: What you'll do... quite a few bullet points.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm only
11:33
SPEAKER_00: going to focus on three.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: Be autonomous.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: You'll take full ownership of your work.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: And you take responsibility for every last detail, every step of the way.
11:43
Rapidly produce multiple concepts and prototypes,
11:46
knowing when to apply pixel
11:48
perfect attention to detail and when to make low-fi sketches
11:52
and learn and become
11:54
SPEAKER_00: a guardian of our consistent design framework and standards to bring the
11:58
SPEAKER_00: company brand to life.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: So, I'm going to stop there.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Like I
12:02
SPEAKER_00: said, there were a few more.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: One, two, three, four more bullet points
12:07
SPEAKER_00: under what you'll do, but I didn't choose those ones.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Red flag stands out there for me.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: The part where they said you will, and I'm
12:18
paraphrasing here,
12:19
the part where they said you will produce basically the
12:23
SPEAKER_01: best design in the world in a time that... in a timeframe that makes
12:27
SPEAKER_01: other designers like kind of sh*t their pants...
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a huge red flag.
12:36
...
12:36
because good design that is really well-aligned with the users,
12:42
the customers
12:43
SPEAKER_01: who are going to, you know, be using your products at the end of the day.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: That
12:48
does take time and there are things in the design process that
12:52
simply cannot be
12:53
SPEAKER_01: rushed and you know you shouldn't rush them.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean don't find
12:56
SPEAKER_01: efficiencies.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: User research is one of them.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: Find efficiencies when
13:01
SPEAKER_01: you're doing user research.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely do.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: But don't rush it.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Don't cut the
13:05
SPEAKER_01: amount of interviews in half just because you want to be faster than
13:09
SPEAKER_01: everybody else.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: That's really dumb.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: You shoot yourself in the foot long term
13:14
SPEAKER_01: when you try and do that.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: And if this is a technology platform that is
13:21
linking patients with care advocates,
13:23
they need to play the long game to be
13:25
SPEAKER_01: able to carve out like a defensible kind of position in this space.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: So big,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: big red flag.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: This is starting to sound a little bit like hustle-hustle-hustle,
13:37
SPEAKER_01: don't think, hustle-hustle-hustle, don't think.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Even though they're saying you're
13:41
SPEAKER_01: gonna be really good at thinking.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: That's a mismatch for me.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: I think this where I start to see some red flags a couple of times here,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: they mention in the "About the Role", they mention this role is for
13:55
SPEAKER_00: those who don't shy away from feedback.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: And then they also mention here in the
13:59
SPEAKER_00: who are you, you absorb feedback exceptionally well.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: But then they're
14:04
SPEAKER_00: also saying be autonomous, take full ownership of your work, take
14:07
SPEAKER_00: responsibility for every every last detail, every step of the way.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: And then
14:11
SPEAKER_00: they're also saying rapidly produce multiple concepts and prototypes.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So for
14:17
SPEAKER_00: me, it does make me wonder, you want this person to be fast, but you
14:21
SPEAKER_00: mentioned that feedback is going to be a really key component.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: And so can two
14:26
SPEAKER_00: things be... those two things be true?
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: It depends how that feedback
14:29
SPEAKER_00: is delivered, who's delivering that feedback, and how they're expected
14:35
SPEAKER_00: to incorporate that and still be fast, to the point where, as they say,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: that would be unrealistic for most others.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: So I would find that really
14:46
SPEAKER_00: scary.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: I would be reading that and be going, "Okay,
14:52
SPEAKER_00: and what happens if I go so fast that I fail?"
14:55
SPEAKER_00: like what?
14:55
SPEAKER_00: And what's first,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: the feedback or the producing the product, right?
14:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a little
15:00
SPEAKER_00: bit of a mismatch.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: So, that's where we get into a little bit of a...
15:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't
15:04
SPEAKER_00: know.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: It's starting to feel...
15:06
SPEAKER_00: I would be hesitant for sure.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: That's an
15:09
SPEAKER_01: interesting point, because I interpreted don't shy away from feedback
15:16
SPEAKER_01: as feedback from the standpoint of teams, teammates, and your boss or
15:21
SPEAKER_01: whatever giving you constructive feedback on you and your work, not
15:25
SPEAKER_01: project specific feedback.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: But it's a very good point that they could mean,
15:29
SPEAKER_01: and they're talking about the design work in this section.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: So, it's probably what you thought that they're saying you must
15:38
SPEAKER_01: be willing to take in product feedback as you're working on the designs.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: It
15:43
SPEAKER_01: probably is that.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: And if that's the case, I'm kind of with you.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: That's another thing where it's... there's a tension there that doesn't
15:51
SPEAKER_01: make a whole heck of a lot of sense.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: I do like that they said be autonomous
15:57
SPEAKER_01: and take ownership.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: You know those are really good things, really good
16:01
SPEAKER_01: characteristics for a top-notch product designer to do.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: But... the question is,
16:08
SPEAKER_01: does the power structure within the organization and, more specifically,
16:12
SPEAKER_01: within that part of the organization allow for that?
16:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, you
16:17
could walk into a room with 10 product designers and ask them
16:21
like,
16:21
"Hey,
16:21
have
16:22
you ever tried to take ownership of a product and move it
16:27
forward your way
16:28
SPEAKER_01: only to have the feedback from seven other people who are kind of / sort
16:33
SPEAKER_01: of related to the work that you're doing derail you and you didn't
16:37
SPEAKER_01: know who to pay attention to and who not to?"
16:39
SPEAKER_01: I guarantee you 9.5 out of 10 are
16:41
SPEAKER_01: going to be like, "Oh, yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have."
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: I can think of specific moments for sure in my career, anyway.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: What I do like so far though is the honesty that... you couldn't
16:55
SPEAKER_00: possibly get this job and have be in these situations and be like, "Oh, I
16:58
SPEAKER_00: didn't see that coming."
17:01
SPEAKER_00: They're telling you right there.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And so, I would
17:04
rather,
17:04
although I might not agree with,
17:07
you know,
17:07
that that approach,
17:08
I would
17:09
SPEAKER_00: rather that a company's honest about it.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, without knowing the
17:14
SPEAKER_00: reporting structure, there's, you know, we just need a little bit more
17:20
SPEAKER_00: information.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So, let's go to "What You Bring to the Table."
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Comfort with
17:27
SPEAKER_00: ambiguity.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Curiousity: all curiousity for all things beautiful.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: While we do not
17:32
SPEAKER_00: design for design's sake, your appreciation for the finer details
17:37
SPEAKER_00: matter.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Good design isn't noticed, but felt.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: You deeply understand this
17:41
SPEAKER_00: concept.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: We worship at the altar of Figma, so your fluency is imperative.
17:46
A
17:47
SPEAKER_00: bias toward action and execution.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: You get nervous if you're not sketching
17:51
SPEAKER_00: concepts, tweaking flows, or polishing the designs that represent the big
17:56
SPEAKER_00: thinking work.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: 3 to 5 years of relevant experience designing consumer web
18:01
SPEAKER_00: products for desktop and mobile.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: An online portfolio of your work.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: So that
18:07
SPEAKER_00: is the "What You Bring to the Table."
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And then it also says applicants must be
18:11
SPEAKER_00: based in the United States.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually just going to finish, because it's not
18:14
SPEAKER_00: that much longer.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Then it says up through the challenge.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: We look forward
18:18
SPEAKER_00: to meeting you.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: It mentions fraudulent recruitment advisory that the company
18:23
SPEAKER_00: will never request bank details or offer employment without an interview.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: All
18:27
SPEAKER_00: legitimate communications come from their official email and they give
18:33
SPEAKER_00: a way to report any suspicious activity.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: So that's it.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: That's the job posting.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: There's as much to talk about in what they said
18:47
SPEAKER_01: as there is in what they didn't say.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:50
So let's...
18:51
the one thing that really stood out for me in the "What you'll
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Bring" or "What you Bring" section is...
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I wrote it down because I liked
19:03
SPEAKER_01: it so much.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: "Good design isn't noticed, but felt."
19:09
SPEAKER_01: That is... yeah, that is absolutely true.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Whomever wrote this job ad
19:18
SPEAKER_01: either is a designer themself or they
19:23
SPEAKER_01: consulted some really good design people.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: There are
19:28
SPEAKER_01: designers who push pixels around and don't really think about the
19:33
SPEAKER_01: intellectual nature of their craft and that's fine.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: Production artists,
19:37
SPEAKER_01: production designers, like tons of them out there.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: They do really important
19:41
work.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: But there are also designers... and these types of designers are
19:47
SPEAKER_01: more like experienced designers and they think deeply about the
19:54
SPEAKER_01: underlying purpose behind what they're doing.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: They think about design language.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: They think about connection with the audience.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: They think about all of the
20:01
SPEAKER_01: things that you actually, you can't put into the design itself.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Like there's
20:07
SPEAKER_01: just no way to express them except through the underlying mechanics
20:12
of how the design works and what it does for the customer at
20:15
the end of the day,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: the user.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: So they connected the dots on that, like, two thumbs up.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Good
20:22
SPEAKER_01: for you.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: These people know what they want.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: They want a designer.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: And
20:26
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that there needs to be more of that in the
20:31
SPEAKER_01: space where we're talking about, like, digital design and product design.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: you need to be comfortable with ambiguity.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Kind of like
20:42
SPEAKER_01: what you said, they're being honest about it.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: that's...
20:47
SPEAKER_01: I also count that as good.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: They said earlier, you know, you need to
20:51
SPEAKER_01: be comfortable with taking ownership of your work and moving it forward.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: The ambiguity part kind of lines up with that.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: But I've still got the same questions
20:59
SPEAKER_01: about the power structure.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Will you actually be able to take ownership of
21:05
SPEAKER_01: this even when there is ambiguity?
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Because there are... design is one of
21:10
SPEAKER_01: those things where there are tons of cooks in the kitchen
21:12
SPEAKER_01: a lot of the time, and it gets really, really counterproductive.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: So is this
21:18
SPEAKER_01: going to be a factor there?
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Fraud statement...
21:24
SPEAKER_01: We're seeing more and more of that.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know about you, but the
21:27
past well,
21:28
I'd say the past like four to six weeks or so,
21:30
I've been seeing a
21:33
SPEAKER_01: lot more fraud statements on job ads, urging people to be cautious and
21:36
SPEAKER_01: we will only ever contact you from, like, this domain.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: And you know, there are
21:39
SPEAKER_01: these other things that help you tell it's legitimate.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Been seeing a lot more
21:43
SPEAKER_01: of that.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: That tells me that is becoming a problem for more companies.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, you can see where in the age of AI.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: This... it's becoming a thing,
21:51
SPEAKER_01: right?
21:52
SPEAKER_01: So, I like that they put that in there.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: But they were missing some
21:55
SPEAKER_01: really important stuff.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: They were missing, you know, like your
21:59
SPEAKER_01: accommodation statement.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: And if these folks are headquartered in
22:02
SPEAKER_01: California, that's a no-no.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: You need to, in California... California is the
22:08
SPEAKER_01: most, kind of, progressive on this this stuff of any of the states in the
22:12
SPEAKER_01: US.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Like you need to pay attention to accommodations and
22:17
SPEAKER_01: interviewing and, you know, all that stuff.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: They had no statement about that.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: They didn't have anything about inclusion which also I found kind of a
22:28
SPEAKER_01: miss.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like they're... they've talked about the culture
22:32
SPEAKER_01: halfway.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: They've finished their employer brand stuff to
22:40
SPEAKER_01: about 50%.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: They did a great job on the mission and the purpose and the
22:45
alignment of that to this position,
22:47
but then they didn't actually do much of
22:50
SPEAKER_01: anything when it talks about the internal culture of the company.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: What's
22:53
SPEAKER_01: it going to be like working there?
22:56
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a miss for me.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: That's
23:01
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like going back to some of the "what you bring to the
23:06
SPEAKER_00: table", I do agree with you.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: I feel like this a good example of, and I'm
23:11
just assuming,
23:12
which we do all the time on this show,
23:15
a good example of when HR
23:18
SPEAKER_00: and the hiring manager work together to create something.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: It screams like
23:22
SPEAKER_00: there was some really decent collaboration going on here, and I love
23:26
SPEAKER_00: it.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Their culture is scattered throughout.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: I love the line, we worship
23:30
SPEAKER_00: at the altar of Figma.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: I think that's hilarious.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's, right, it's a
23:37
good indication of their culture and what they're going to be
23:39
like to work
23:41
SPEAKER_00: with.
23:41
So it does seem like although it's going to be go-go-go and
23:44
very busy,
23:44
the
23:45
SPEAKER_00: culture itself will be quite relaxed.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: But, it that could also be a red flag for
23:49
SPEAKER_00: someone that could be considered exclusionary type culture and it could
23:53
SPEAKER_00: mean that somebody might not feel like they fit properly in that kind of
23:57
SPEAKER_00: environment.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: But again, they're being honest and so you would use your
24:01
SPEAKER_00: discretion when applying for a job like this.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: It's... it is weird that they don't have
24:09
SPEAKER_00: any benefits.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Like what else do you get?
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no benefits.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: My next thing, no benefits.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: You're talking about how
24:16
SPEAKER_00: broken the healthcare system is.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: So what are you offering to your
24:20
SPEAKER_00: employees?
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Do you have health insurance?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: That I
24:24
SPEAKER_01: think would be the number one question, right?
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Are you actually doing
24:29
something about this broken healthcare system by putting your
24:31
money where your
24:32
SPEAKER_01: mouth is and paying for decent insurance for your people?
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Does not say that, that's out for me.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: And it's, the whole thing is like
24:43
SPEAKER_00: A buildup.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: It's like you're just about to sneeze and then something interrupts
24:47
SPEAKER_00: your sneeze and you're like, "Oh, okay.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, now I have like watery eyes and a
24:52
SPEAKER_00: runny nose."
24:54
SPEAKER_00: they dropped the ball at the end and, I'm befuddled.
24:57
I don't understand why it was going in such a good direction
25:00
and then it it's
25:02
like somebody was interrupted while they were writing the job
25:04
posting and they're
25:05
SPEAKER_00: like, "Oh, slap the fraudulent advisory on it and we're done."
25:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's, so
25:12
SPEAKER_00: weird to me.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: but they did list compensation.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: going on the job posting, tell me what you think that the compensation
25:24
SPEAKER_00: is for this role.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, this a product designer.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: It's
25:29
SPEAKER_01: remote US.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: The company's domiciled in Redwood.
25:34
is this a...
25:35
did it say Senior Product Designer,
25:37
or just Product Designer?
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Just Product Designer.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Just Product Designer.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: So there
25:43
isn't going to be...
25:44
probably not going to be a bunch of people management
25:48
SPEAKER_01: type stuff.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: This is where, you know, kind of knowing a little bit about the
25:50
SPEAKER_01: report-to and the org structure would be super helpful.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Is there a Senior
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Product Designer in that group?
25:56
SPEAKER_01: That would kind of make, you know, this judging
25:59
SPEAKER_01: where you sit and what you can expect to, kind of, get out of this a
26:04
SPEAKER_01: little bit easier.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: This isn't healthcare, it's software.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: It is
26:07
SPEAKER_01: software, right?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: They're not building like physical...
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's software.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: So,
26:12
SPEAKER_01: the margins are going to be pretty darn good.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: The operating margins.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, it does say under industry, it does say hospitals and healthcare,
26:21
SPEAKER_00: but...
26:22
SPEAKER_00: So, I don't know.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: In the US, that's like a license to print money.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: If you're selling directly
26:30
SPEAKER_01: to hospitals, and like insurance groups and stuff, like even better.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: I would probably put this at, in US dollars,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: USD $120,000 to USD $140,000 a year.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not that.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: It's USD $100,000 to $115,000.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit lower than
26:54
SPEAKER_01: what I thought.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: A little bit lower.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit
26:59
SPEAKER_00: lower.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: The spread, like, the range is really small.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: I would love to know
27:04
SPEAKER_00: if I got offered this job and they offered me USD$ 100K.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: I would be pissed.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: I'd be like just give me $115K.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: That's your range.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Just give me that.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Because it's so small.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: So, it does... the range makes me curious about
27:21
SPEAKER_00: structure, which we talked about.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why my camera went blurry,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: but my camera is blurry and I don't know how to fix it.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Turn it off and turn it on again.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Tech support advice.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I have a theory.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I have a theory about
27:43
SPEAKER_01: this.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So, the $100K to $115K... Yeah.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: So, that if this
27:49
SPEAKER_01: was an in-person job in Redwood, California, they wouldn't get anybody
27:53
SPEAKER_01: To apply for this.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: They might get like a student who had zero years of experience
27:56
SPEAKER_01: apply for this job and just kind of hope and pray.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: There are tons of software
28:02
SPEAKER_01: companies in that area, like Microsoft's around there.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Microsoft had a big campus around there.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: So, I think they went remote to
28:12
SPEAKER_01: be able to get someone who is more talented at the amount of money that
28:16
SPEAKER_01: they can pay.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of smart, to be honest.
28:21
It's such a coincidence that I just...
28:23
as you were talking,
28:24
whoever watches
28:25
SPEAKER_00: this is going to wonder what just happened.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: I had a sneeze
28:30
SPEAKER_00: that... you had an interrupted sneeze!
28:32
SPEAKER_00: I had an interrupted sneeze.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't get it out.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: So that's why all of a
28:37
sudden I was like,
28:39
I looked like,
28:40
I was having some kind of,
28:42
I don't know event...
28:45
SPEAKER_00: health event, health crisis.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I need this, I need this company to help me.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: You need someone to advocate for you.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I need someone to advocate for "let a
28:54
SPEAKER_00: girl sneeze."
28:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe it's
28:58
SPEAKER_00: partly that.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: And it also makes me wonder just about... structurally what
29:03
SPEAKER_00: is your path of development and progression in such a small range like
29:09
SPEAKER_00: that?
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, and is there going to be one?
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Because 201-500 person
29:15
SPEAKER_01: company, that's that's a fair, it's a decent-sized workforce, but
29:20
SPEAKER_01: it's not like a GE or a Microsoft or a Google or anything...
29:26
SPEAKER_01: there may very well not be a progression pathway for you in this
29:30
SPEAKER_01: company.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's not the end of the world, you know, it's not like this
29:34
SPEAKER_01: has to be absolutely every company has to have these kind of things.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Some
29:38
organizations just...
29:40
they just can't afford to train and progress and support
29:43
people like up from you know janitor to CEO,
29:44
like,
29:45
it doesn't always work out that
29:46
SPEAKER_01: way.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: But I would really kind of wonder
29:51
if there actually is the capability or the possibility for that
29:53
to kind of
29:54
SPEAKER_01: happen given the size of it.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: They are... they have a
29:59
SPEAKER_00: lot of open roles and so they do talk about... they mentioned something
30:04
SPEAKER_00: about larger organizations if that's not going to be for you, or
30:09
SPEAKER_00: whatever, but then they are like 201 to 500 employees.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I know that's not
30:13
SPEAKER_00: exceptionally huge, but that...
30:14
SPEAKER_00: I still consider that to be, you know, a
30:16
SPEAKER_00: larger... if they have a whackload of
30:22
open roles and they're that size,
30:24
I wonder if they just closed a round and
30:27
SPEAKER_01: they're going on a hiring spree to kind of like...
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you are so astute, my friend.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: There is a line in the posting that I didn't
30:34
SPEAKER_00: read that says...
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Read more in our [REDACTED] funding announcement here, and there's a link
30:43
SPEAKER_00: To it.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: So, ding-ding-ding.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: So, they're staffing up because
30:48
SPEAKER_01: they just got a big VC cheque.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Alright.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: You know it.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: I love how you just
30:52
SPEAKER_00: named that.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk before we take that break then, let's talk a
30:55
little bit about what happens when you click apply,
30:58
because that again was
31:00
what the Redditor pointed out and that's what made me more
31:02
interested in the role
31:04
SPEAKER_00: than the posting itself.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: So you click on it and it takes you to
31:09
SPEAKER_00: some, I don't know, applicant tracking software, ASHBY, and it
31:15
SPEAKER_00: says "we want to know the real you.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Real humans read every response with care.
31:18
Thoughtful,
31:18
detailed answers help us understand what drives you,
31:20
and how you
31:22
SPEAKER_00: see the world.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Your experiences and perspectives matter to us.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: We can't wait
31:26
SPEAKER_00: to learn more about you.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: A word of advice, be genuine.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: We expect complete
31:31
sentences,
31:32
clear thoughts,
31:33
and a true glimpse into who you are as a person and
31:35
SPEAKER_00: a problem solver.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: AI generated responses or no responses at all will likely not
31:41
SPEAKER_00: be considered.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: We receive a high volume volume of applicants.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: So, if you want to
31:45
SPEAKER_00: stand out, showcase your passion and skillset.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like... you plug in
31:49
SPEAKER_00: your your resume and your personal information or whatever, but then it
31:54
SPEAKER_00: goes into a list of questions.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious what your thoughts are, because
31:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm not opposed to having screening questions.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: It does help to go
32:05
SPEAKER_00: through mass amounts of applications, you know, more efficiently.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: But here's
32:10
SPEAKER_00: some of the questions...
32:11
SPEAKER_00: This role is for the hungry, the ambitious, the curious,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: and those who don't shy away from feedback.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: They said that already.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Which
32:19
SPEAKER_00: are you?
32:19
SPEAKER_00: So, that's a weird question, right?
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Which are you?
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Wait, so it... that was the end of the
32:26
SPEAKER_01: question, like, question mark?
32:27
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing else.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Didn't give you options of
32:30
SPEAKER_01: like are you, you know, Bob who runs to the grocery store.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: It just says hungry.
32:34
It says this role is for the hungry,
32:35
the ambitious,
32:36
the curious,
32:36
and those who
32:38
SPEAKER_00: don't shy away from feedback.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Which are you?
32:39
SPEAKER_00: And so that's just one, I have a few
32:42
SPEAKER_00: questions that I'm gonna run through, but that one was interesting to me
32:45
SPEAKER_00: because it's kind of like, well... do you know how I'd answer that?
32:46
SPEAKER_00: I would
32:49
SPEAKER_01: answer that by writing I am hungry, ambitious, and don't shy away from
32:52
SPEAKER_01: feedback.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And curious.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget curious.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, curious, right?
32:55
SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm saying, right?
32:58
SPEAKER_00: What's the answer you're looking for?
32:59
SPEAKER_00: If are you wanting someone to say
33:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm hungry?
33:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
33:04
SPEAKER_00: that's it.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you want the person to list out...
33:07
SPEAKER_00: I am all of the above.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: I am all of these things.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: So it feels a little bit like a moot question to me.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why are you wasting your time and theirs?
33:15
SPEAKER_00: You say that, Oliver.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: That's like a direct line from the job posting.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: So, why are you repeating that
33:20
SPEAKER_00: here?
33:20
SPEAKER_00: It makes me feel like, you know, I don't
33:26
SPEAKER_01: know if you had Frosh Week where you went to university, but where I
33:31
SPEAKER_01: went to university in... during frosh week, the week coordinators or
33:36
SPEAKER_01: whatever, who were kind of pep rally people, they would come out and
33:42
SPEAKER_01: they banged like pots and pans outside the residence at 6:00 in the
33:47
SPEAKER_01: morning to get us all up so that we could go do these, car wash
33:51
SPEAKER_01: team-building, community-building kind of things.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And they would yell
33:57
SPEAKER_01: out stuff like, "We want you to be blah!
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Are you blah?"
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And everybody would yell
34:02
SPEAKER_01: back, "Yeah!!!"
34:02
SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of that.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Was this for a fraternity
34:08
SPEAKER_00: type thing or just everyone?
34:10
SPEAKER_01: just like standard issue residence at
34:12
SPEAKER_01: university where I went.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: It was... Frosh week was optional.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: You could
34:15
SPEAKER_01: go and it was a week where there were no classes or anything,
34:18
it was really just...
34:18
get to know the people around you,
34:19
and have fun and,
34:20
you
34:22
know,
34:22
like you're away from home for the first time,
34:23
like...
34:23
let's get you kind of
34:26
SPEAKER_01: situated and feeling like you're part of it.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: It was that.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: You didn't have to go to
34:30
SPEAKER_01: it.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I did, a lot of fun, but it was still you guys are really peppy for 6:00
34:34
SPEAKER_01: in the morning.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: I personally would rather die than
34:39
SPEAKER_00: participate in things like that, but that's just me and that's how I've
34:43
SPEAKER_00: always been.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: But I do, I get what you're saying, right?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Like it's kind of
34:47
SPEAKER_00: like that.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: It's... we all know what you want us to say.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Imagine answering
34:51
SPEAKER_00: that question incorrectly.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: I guess that's what the point is.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: They're
34:55
SPEAKER_00: screening people out.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: Another question.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: What does beautiful design mean to you?
35:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, relevant.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: That's relevant.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: But I think if you read through the job
35:05
SPEAKER_00: description, they kind of tell you what to say for that one, too.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: So, fair
35:07
SPEAKER_00: enough.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: They do.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: But I actually think
35:13
SPEAKER_01: that's a very insightful question to ask for someone in this role.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Kind of
35:18
SPEAKER_01: being point on with your target audience and knowing the kind of
35:22
SPEAKER_01: designer that you want.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: That's a very insightful question to ask.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: I actually
35:25
SPEAKER_01: think that's quite a good one because the person who is...
35:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah... the person who they're ultimately going to want on this team,
35:33
SPEAKER_01: they're going to write stuff and talk about influences and talk about
35:37
SPEAKER_01: different styles and whatnot.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: The person who they really want in this
35:40
role,
35:40
they're going to see that question and be like,
35:42
"Oh my god,
35:42
I have so many
35:44
SPEAKER_01: opinions and nobody's ever asked me.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: Here, let me write you, like, a novella."
35:49
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good question.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: I think so, too.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And I'll get...
35:55
SPEAKER_00: I'll get to a summary here, but the next question is, what's a brand or
35:58
SPEAKER_00: product that you admire the design of, and why?
36:02
Again,
36:02
I think like you just said,
36:04
I think that's a really good question to
36:06
SPEAKER_00: be asking for this role.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Describe something you've learned lately.
36:13
And then the last question is,
36:14
record a video describing why you're the best
36:17
SPEAKER_00: person for this position.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Keep the length under one minute and include a
36:21
SPEAKER_00: link with your answer below.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: The best way to provide a video is through Loom
36:24
SPEAKER_00: or a YouTube link.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: And that's where they lose me.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: And so I
36:29
SPEAKER_00: think that those questions that you said are good questions to ask.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I
36:33
SPEAKER_00: don't know that they're screening questions, because my concern is that
36:36
SPEAKER_00: somebody is going to get to a culture fit round of the interview and
36:40
SPEAKER_00: they're going to be asked those questions again, because why wouldn't
36:46
SPEAKER_00: they?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: That's what you would be asking in that interview.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: So asking it now...
36:54
SPEAKER_00: I guess, as long as they're not asking it again down the road.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: And then they
36:58
SPEAKER_00: lose me with the video everything.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: It's just to me... just like the job posting.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Everything was going well, and then you kind of lost me.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing
37:06
SPEAKER_00: with this application process.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And it also doesn't say what are the next
37:09
SPEAKER_00: steps?
37:10
SPEAKER_00: What are... it's going to be?
37:12
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
37:13
SPEAKER_00: I love the job posting.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: Here's our process.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: 30 minute phone screen, then round one with so and so.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Like provide that information as well.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: If everything
37:23
SPEAKER_00: in the application and the job posting is take-take-take-take and
37:28
they're not giving anything,
37:30
they're not giving the candidate anything back.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: We
37:33
SPEAKER_00: don't know about the benefits.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: We don't know about the reporting structure.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what the interview process is going to look like.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: We don't know
37:40
SPEAKER_00: when they could expect to hear back.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: They don't give anything back to
37:43
SPEAKER_00: the candidate.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: So you can be sure that that's what it's going to be like to
37:47
SPEAKER_00: work for this company is my hot take on that.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: But curious to hear your...
37:55
SPEAKER_01: the first question was dumb for sure.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: the ending, the video, that was no...
38:01
SPEAKER_01: that was really bad.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: I'll talk a little bit more about that in a sec.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: The stuff in the middle I felt was was actually pretty good.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: I
38:08
definitely take your point that that's the kind of stuff that
38:11
you would you
38:12
SPEAKER_01: would talk about during a proper interview with the hiring manager
38:16
and/or,
38:17
you know,
38:18
members of the team that you're going to be working with
38:20
SPEAKER_01: to kind of assess the cultural and vocational fit.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: But I
38:24
SPEAKER_01: don't think it's...
38:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's terrible at this step, too, because it
38:29
will actually make it easier,
38:31
assuming that the person who reviews these is
38:36
either a designer or is willing to enlist the help of...
38:39
kind of like their
38:40
SPEAKER_01: perfect designer and doing it.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: You're you're going to be able to tell pretty
38:45
SPEAKER_01: quick which ones came out of ChatGPT or Claude.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: And which ones were written by the designer with intellectual
38:52
SPEAKER_01: curiousity.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: You're so...
38:54
SPEAKER_01: I think as a screener kind of... good.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: The video thing?
38:58
SPEAKER_01: No.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Especially... just no.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: you're going to introduce so much bias
39:05
SPEAKER_01: there... there's two big issues
39:10
with requiring people to record a video at this stage...
39:14
oh,
39:14
I hate it so much.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: It drives me bananas.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Number one: you're introducing bias...
39:19
SPEAKER_00: you're introducing bias right from the get-go, that's asking so much
39:23
SPEAKER_00: work for this person to put in right from the get-go.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I prefer
39:27
SPEAKER_00: phone screens that are on the phone where you don't even know what the
39:31
SPEAKER_00: person looks like.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: I also like to advise hiring teams not to look on people's
39:36
SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn profiles and just wait until they get like the short list of
39:40
SPEAKER_00: candidates and wait until after they've done the first round interview if
39:44
SPEAKER_00: they're participating in the interview because of exactly that.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: My other point of why this bad for this role is that
39:53
it's actually going to screen out people who would be very...
39:56
it's going to filter
39:58
SPEAKER_01: out people who'd be very good at this job, but are introverted.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: Really, really good designers... a lot of them are very introverted.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: The
40:09
SPEAKER_01: type of designer who is intellectually curious, who really takes
40:15
SPEAKER_01: this up as, like, it's their calling and they love it.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: That's who you want.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: But that person a lot of the time is an introvert.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: They're going to get to the
40:25
recording of video thing and be like and they're either,
40:29
A) not going to do it
40:30
or B) they're not going to come across as their their normal,
40:33
natural self because
40:34
SPEAKER_01: they're so damned anxious about the whole thing.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: So, like this company is
40:37
SPEAKER_01: shooting themselves in the foot with this stupid video thing.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I know.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: and not just like introvert, but like neurodiversity.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: There's all sorts of reasons why the interview process itself does not
40:52
SPEAKER_00: work for everyone.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: And then add this, and this is a new-ish thing the past few
40:59
SPEAKER_00: years or so.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: I find it... so I just don't like it at all.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it's...
41:06
SPEAKER_00: for all the reasons that you listed, I think it needs to go away.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Why?
41:09
You're just...
41:10
if you're interested in interviewing the person,
41:12
interview the
41:13
SPEAKER_00: person.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: Don't make them jump through all of these hoops.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: if you really wanted to have this sort of
41:22
SPEAKER_01: more rich kind of experience at the screening stage, audio only.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't
41:28
SPEAKER_01: have to be recorded video.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: It can be record, like, audio, you know, and you
41:32
could say to them...
41:33
turn your camera off while you're doing this so that we
41:36
SPEAKER_01: don't see you because we don't want to develop bias, but we would like to
41:40
SPEAKER_01: hear in your own words to make sure that you're not a bot.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: Like could you needed
41:44
SPEAKER_01: to?
41:44
SPEAKER_01: I guess that's a good point.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: What
41:48
SPEAKER_00: is the desired outcome here from the companies who choose to do this?
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Is it
41:54
SPEAKER_00: to reduce their time?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Is that the screen then?
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Is that what the phone
41:58
SPEAKER_00: screen would be?
41:58
SPEAKER_00: And it's replacing it, so they're not wasting their time.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: They
42:01
SPEAKER_00: still have to watch it.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: You're still investing the same amount of time
42:06
SPEAKER_00: watching the &$$%^ video.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: So, are you making people do this?
42:11
SPEAKER_00: It's just
42:12
SPEAKER_00: interesting to me, of what is that desired outcome by
42:17
SPEAKER_00: having people do this?
42:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: And when they said in there
42:20
that they also said that you...
42:22
they wanted you to record a video using Loom
42:26
or YouTube,
42:26
that tells me that it's not a part of an ATS and there isn't
42:29
a...
42:30
SPEAKER_01: there isn't an LLM system that is ingesting the video content and
42:34
SPEAKER_01: scoring it or grading it in some way.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: They're just like... record a video.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: They ask for the link to the video.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: They're like, enter the link
42:42
SPEAKER_00: to your video here in the space.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: What's interesting to me is that then I went
42:46
SPEAKER_00: and looked at some of the other job... open postings for this company and
42:53
SPEAKER_00: they didn't have this request.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: So, and this is an old...
42:54
SPEAKER_00: I said this isn't an
42:56
SPEAKER_00: active listing.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: So, I'm wondering if they did away with it
43:00
SPEAKER_00: because it doesn't seem to be on any of the other job postings...
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
43:06
...
43:06
or if there was something specific about this role that they
43:08
wanted people
43:09
SPEAKER_00: to do the videos, or were they just experimenting?
43:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: They're like,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: "Let's see how things work when we do it this way versus when we don't."
43:16
SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing wrong with that.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: I just don't know what the
43:21
SPEAKER_00: logic is, but it does not appear in their other job posting.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: So, I thought
43:25
SPEAKER_00: that was...
43:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, what we're going to do
43:28
right now is take a quick little break so Paul can review the
43:29
job posting in
43:31
SPEAKER_00: full and then we're going to come back and give our final scores.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we are back from our break.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Paul
43:49
has had the opportunity to completely review the full job
43:53
posting and that
43:55
SPEAKER_00: means it's time for us to give our final scores.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: So, Paul, what would you
44:01
SPEAKER_00: rate the job posting out of 10?
44:03
SPEAKER_00: And then what would you rate the job design
44:06
SPEAKER_00: overall out of 10?
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the job ad itself there
44:12
SPEAKER_01: were parts of it that I absolutely loved.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know what the
44:17
SPEAKER_01: majority of what they wrote here?
44:19
SPEAKER_01: I loved, I really, really, really liked.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: Strong alignment to purpose.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: They know who they're after to come
44:27
SPEAKER_01: into this role.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: It's really, really well done.
44:32
It pains me to say this,
44:34
but I'm going to score this a five because of the
44:37
SPEAKER_01: things that weren't there.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: The things that were there compensated a little
44:43
SPEAKER_01: bit, but the things that weren't there were kind of damning.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: There's no
44:49
SPEAKER_01: talk about benefits, not even health insurance, which if they're really
44:53
SPEAKER_01: all about this mission to redefine redefine healthcare and, you know, fix
44:57
SPEAKER_01: the broken system and whatnot, and they're not coming to the table with,
45:01
SPEAKER_01: hey, guess what?
45:03
SPEAKER_01: We're going to give you health insurance.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about that.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: That's a problem.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: That's a problem for me.
45:12
I hope that it's just an oversight and they didn't include it,
45:15
because somebody
45:16
SPEAKER_01: got rushed.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, 5 out of 10 for this.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: It was missing who you're going to report to.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't really a
45:30
SPEAKER_01: sense, either, of the responsibilities.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: It did talk a lot about who they
45:35
SPEAKER_01: want, who their ideal candidate is, and that was really good, but they
45:40
SPEAKER_01: didn't talk about the responsibilities.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: That was a big miss.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Didn't talk
45:44
SPEAKER_01: about the team structure.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: A lot of job ads don't.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: But I think with this one,
45:50
where there was so much other missing stuff,
45:53
that was kind of more glaring.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: I would want them to talk about the team structure a little bit.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: Rating the role design...
46:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I can...
46:10
SPEAKER_01: because there is absolutely nothing in this job ad that talks about those
46:16
SPEAKER_01: responsibilities and what you're actually going to
46:20
SPEAKER_01: be doing.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: It does have some very broad statements, like, you know,
46:24
SPEAKER_01: you'll be comfortable with ambiguity.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: That kind of gives us some
46:29
SPEAKER_01: hints about the job.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: It says things like, "Alright, you will own product
46:35
SPEAKER_01: design."
46:36
SPEAKER_01: OK. That says something about it, but functionally it says nothing
46:40
about what you're actually responsible for,
46:43
other than this nebulous concept of
46:46
SPEAKER_01: you're responsible for the product.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with you.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: So, no.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: So, unable to even rate it.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: So, and
46:59
SPEAKER_00: and I agree.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: So, I I would say five out of 10 for the job
47:05
SPEAKER_00: posting.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like halfway there, but there are a lot of missing pieces.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: you said, it's hilarious that they're so passionate about the healthcare
47:12
SPEAKER_00: system being broken, and you read that, you're like, "^&$% yeah, someone
47:16
SPEAKER_00: gets it."
47:16
SPEAKER_00: But then they don't talk about how they take care of you in that
47:20
SPEAKER_00: situation.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And so, they're a part of the problem.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Which is not great.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so funny because they really hook you on these cool terms and,
47:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, statements.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: It's really, really bold.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: It's really honest, but
47:37
SPEAKER_00: then when you read it, you're like... exactly like you said, what are you
47:41
SPEAKER_00: actually responsible for?
47:43
SPEAKER_00: It's all about who you are, what you bring to the
47:45
SPEAKER_00: table.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I said earlier, it's not reciprocal in any way, shape,
47:49
SPEAKER_00: or form.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: Expect it to be like that at that organization for sure, unless you
47:54
have an amazing manager and we don't know because you don't
47:57
list the manager.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: So 5 out of 10 for that.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: and then the job design itself, same.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: It's
48:04
really hard to say because we can't say you're not being paid
48:08
according to
48:09
SPEAKER_00: your responsibilities or anything like
48:12
SPEAKER_00: that because we don't actually know what they are.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty much
48:18
SPEAKER_00: impossible.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: And then I also don't like the video for the application process.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: So that's just going to bump the score down a little bit too.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: I liked
48:26
SPEAKER_00: where they were going with it.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: They just didn't take it all the way.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: And I can't
48:29
SPEAKER_00: take them seriously.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: I cannot believe that they will care about their
48:34
employees because they just failed to mention all the things
48:37
that are included
48:38
SPEAKER_00: when you are an employee at the
48:41
SPEAKER_00: organization.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: So if you got them, list them.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: We say it all the time.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: What are
48:45
SPEAKER_00: the perks?
48:45
SPEAKER_00: What are the benefits?
48:45
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that if they don't list
48:49
SPEAKER_00: them, they don't have them, but it's just such a huge missed opportunity.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: And you wouldn't know until you're in that process.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: So, maybe
49:00
SPEAKER_00: that's... ask them in your video.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And like bigger picture, too.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: It
49:05
SPEAKER_01: is... it is a little bit disingenuous to float the idea that you're going
49:12
to,
49:12
by working at this company,
49:14
be able to change the face of healthcare in the
49:17
SPEAKER_01: United States and fix the broken system.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: That's not going to happen.
49:22
This company,
49:23
this market opportunity only exists because the system is so
49:27
SPEAKER_01: broken.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: If they have a platform to match patients with patient advocates.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: That means a part of the health care system that's fundamentally
49:35
SPEAKER_01: important is also fundamentally really broken.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like great words and whatnot, but you've got to go in with
49:47
SPEAKER_01: your eyes open.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: And for people who are going to be applying for
49:50
this job or jobs like this at this company or other companies
49:54
where the job
49:55
SPEAKER_01: ad kind of looks similar, go in with questions.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, we say go in armed
49:59
SPEAKER_01: with questions.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: This one especially.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: So, because it does seem a little bit
50:04
SPEAKER_01: like this a play to make somebody a lot of money by tacking on to
50:09
SPEAKER_01: popular outrage over a social issue.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: You hook the person in
50:14
and then all of a sudden you realize,
50:15
wait a minute,
50:16
this company is part of
50:18
SPEAKER_00: the problem, too.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: Which is not great.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, that was another
50:23
SPEAKER_00: one for the books.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Do we consider this post roasted?
50:30
SPEAKER_01: It is roasted.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: See you next week, everyone.