Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 99. Jealousy, parenting & career changes with Elana Sures

Transcript

99. Jealousy, parenting & career changes with Elana Sures · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the All Figured Out Podcast.
• 0:02
  My name is Andrea Barr. I am your host and thank you so
• 0:05
  much for joining me for this episode of the podcast.
• 0:09
  So what happens when you mix a seasoned therapist, razor sharp
• 0:14
  wit 0 tolerance for perfection, performative perfection at that.
• 0:19
  As a parent, you get one of the most validating conversations
• 0:24
  I've yet to have in this podcast and that is with Alana Cirrus.
• 0:28
  She is a clinical counselor, she's a clinic founder, and
• 0:31
  she's a mom of two teens. And she brings both depth and
• 0:35
  dry humor to every topic she talks about.
• 0:38
  We talk about everything from mom rage to money mindset.
• 0:42
  And in this episode, we definitely speak a lot about the
• 0:45
  sneaky power all call it of jealousy, which is a topic that
• 0:50
  I don't think is ever talked about, especially on podcasts.
• 0:53
  The topic of jealousy, especially in the parenting
• 0:56
  world, especially with social media and all the things we talk
• 1:00
  about, the identity gifts that hit hardest in motherhood.
• 1:03
  And we really talk about what it takes to walk away from a secure
• 1:07
  job in your 40s to build something more aligned.
• 1:09
  We talk about her career story, which is just that she walked
• 1:13
  away from a great stable job as a counselor to become a clinic
• 1:16
  owner. And then I asked her tons of
• 1:19
  questions about how we can just navigate all the feelings that
• 1:22
  we have as parents. We get into why jealousy might
• 1:26
  be pointing towards your purpose, how to make peace with
• 1:29
  friends who have what you want and how to do that while maybe
• 1:33
  loving them from afar. Or how to work through those
• 1:35
  emotions and feelings of jealousy that you see on social
• 1:37
  media. The not so glamorous mental load
• 1:41
  of perhaps the parenting and being a business owner and what
• 1:45
  it takes. We talk about money and we talk
• 1:48
  about self worth and just so many things.
• 1:50
  We go all over the place. This one goes deep, but in a
• 1:54
  really human and in a way that just will, I think, normalize a
• 1:58
  lot of feelings that you have felt in your parenting journey.
• 2:02
  So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with
• 2:06
  myself and Elena Saris. You're listening to the All
• 2:11
  Figured Out podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Bart.
• 2:16
  I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
• 2:19
  self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
• 2:21
  After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
• 2:24
  and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
• 2:28
  No parent has it all figured out, and that's OK.
• 2:31
  Here, we're all about growing personally and professionally
• 2:35
  while keeping family time sacred.
• 2:37
  You'll get practical tips, career strategies and musings on
• 2:40
  life, plus guest experts to help us fill in the gaps.
• 2:43
  So grab a coffee or hide in your car for some knee time.
• 2:47
  We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
• 2:50
  out together. Alanis Cirrus, thank you so much
• 2:55
  for joining me on the All Figured Out podcast.
• 2:59
  Thank you for having me. Andrea, she waves.
• 3:02
  It's audio. I was like, hi, no, but it's
• 3:06
  video too. We are recording the video.
• 3:09
  I'm so excited for this conversation.
• 3:11
  We connected because we're in adjacent field.
• 3:15
  I want don't want to say I'm similar to a counselor by any
• 3:17
  means, but we work with a population, parents, many
• 3:20
  parents, mothers who you know, Neil will support from the likes
• 3:24
  of counselors, career coaches and all sorts of things.
• 3:27
  So it is lovely to have you on the podcast because when we were
• 3:31
  chatting about this, I was like, stop talking.
• 3:34
  I just want to hit cord because you have so much wisdom.
• 3:38
  The mum of two teenagers and just a human being with a great
• 3:43
  hysterical attitude on life. I just think you're fabulous.
• 3:45
  So thank. You so welcome and the
• 3:50
  admiration is totally mutual to staff.
• 3:53
  FYI. Thanks.
• 3:55
  Thanks. So that is so nice.
• 3:59
  Peek behind the curtain. This is our second time doing
• 4:01
  this because we had audio issues.
• 4:04
  But here we are, We're doing it again and it's already
• 4:07
  different. And you know what?
• 4:07
  I think it's going to be more special this time.
• 4:10
  So Elena, I have to tell you something.
• 4:14
  I have a mug here. I've already told you this, but
• 4:17
  I think you're going to like it. And I think the audience will
• 4:19
  appreciate the fact that I'm showing you a mug that says mild
• 4:21
  rage. And I got this when I was
• 4:24
  pregnant. And my business or business
• 4:28
  podcast, my business group that I was a part of was like, oh,
• 4:30
  how are you doing? You're pregnant.
• 4:31
  And I was like, I'm great. I just have like a bit of mild
• 4:35
  rage. And everyone was like, oh,
• 4:38
  that's such a great description for those who were like also
• 4:40
  pregnant at the same time. They're like, that's exactly
• 4:42
  what it is. And I'm speaking to somebody who
• 4:43
  speaks on the topic of mom rage a lot.
• 4:46
  So I poured my coffee from one mug to this mug specifically for
• 4:51
  this conversation. Andrea, I appreciate anybody,
• 4:57
  but especially coming from you who seems like so put together
• 5:01
  and so just like good vibes, who's like, yeah.
• 5:04
  And mild rage because let's face it, you're a woman in these
• 5:10
  modern times. You have children or you're
• 5:12
  pregnant. If you don't have mild rage, are
• 5:15
  you even paying attention? Are you even alive?
• 5:19
  Are you even real? Are you Chachi PT.
• 5:23
  Yeah. Are you AI?
• 5:25
  Oh my God. Do you think there's gonna be,
• 5:27
  like humans? Like AI humans?
• 5:29
  Well, not humans I guess, but people, Avatars.
• 5:33
  Let's not go there, Andrea. Wait, can I ask you something
• 5:36
  before I forget to ask it? Because I don't have anything to
• 5:39
  write this question down and I think that would be weird.
• 5:41
  Yeah. Have you been hearing or has
• 5:44
  there been chatter in the counseling space about people
• 5:48
  going to ask like counseling, like questions or get like chat
• 5:52
  TBT to give them counseling? Like what's the word on the
• 5:56
  street in your profession? Just wrote a blog post exactly
• 6:00
  about this. OK, Put it in the show.
• 6:02
  Like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:04
  And the reason I wrote the blog post was I experimented with it
• 6:08
  myself in between therapy sessions.
• 6:10
  I was like, oh, my God, I have to wait six days to see my
• 6:12
  therapist. I, I, I, I need to kind of
• 6:16
  unpack something. And so the answer is yes.
• 6:21
  And also it's complicated. So if you are going to do it,
• 6:25
  don't. There's a, there's a few, I put
• 6:29
  this all in the blog post so we'll link it.
• 6:31
  But there's a few really, really important prompters and
• 6:35
  disclaimers that you need to include in your in your therapy
• 6:40
  sesh with Chachi PG. This is like going real dark,
• 6:44
  but I have to. I'm also super curious if there
• 6:46
  was somebody who had suicidal ideation and were asking Chachi
• 6:51
  BT questions around, say, the execution of that or whatever.
• 6:56
  Do you think that they're like, do we know?
• 6:58
  Does it have safeguards for things like that?
• 7:01
  I would think. I think it does, but I also know
• 7:05
  that it hasn't always. And that's one of the major
• 7:08
  disclaimers that I put in my article is that if you have
• 7:12
  suicidal ideation that GPT is not the person to go to or the
• 7:16
  person it's not the place to go to.
• 7:20
  You're way better off contacting, you know, a crisis
• 7:23
  line or emergency services 911 because Chachi PT is totally
• 7:30
  fallible. It sometimes gives like garbage
• 7:32
  replies to serious questions. It's it's still has a bit of a
• 7:36
  wild card aspect to it. So yeah, it's a great question.
• 7:42
  OK. OK, we'll get off this topic,
• 7:44
  but that's very interesting. OK, So if anyone is in crisis,
• 7:48
  call 911, call your local crisis line.
• 7:52
  What is the easiest way for someone?
• 7:53
  Is 911 just the the quickest and easiest?
• 7:55
  If like you don't even have the capacity to like Google it, Is
• 7:57
  that the easiest way that somebody should and could?
• 8:00
  There is now I think there, I think there is now like a three
• 8:04
  digit mental health access number, which because you put me
• 8:09
  on the spot here, yes, no number is escaping me.
• 8:12
  But we can add that to the show notes.
• 8:13
  I'll find it out and we can add that.
• 8:15
  Yeah, well and I guess it depends we've got like Norway
• 8:17
  listening or whatever like there's different I guess
• 8:19
  numbers in too. So check with your local.
• 8:21
  But that's a good question. OK, that's really cool.
• 8:24
  OK, take us back to younger Alana who got into counseling,
• 8:32
  got your masters of is it masters of masters of the arts,
• 8:35
  clinical. What does it?
• 8:36
  What does? This counseling psychology
• 8:38
  masters in counselling psychology from UBC.
• 8:41
  Yeah. OK, wow.
• 8:42
  So the real deal you get out there in the workforce, you're,
• 8:46
  I know that you really enjoyed, you know, those first couple of
• 8:49
  years you were on the, you were on the, the, the medical side, I
• 8:53
  would call it. You were working at a hospital
• 8:55
  within a unit there and kind of doing, the more I know you were
• 8:59
  saying, like you had told me previously, that private
• 9:02
  practice wasn't quite as common of a thing back in say, 2005
• 9:07
  when you were starting out or like you would go the medical
• 9:10
  route. Well, I think it was more
• 9:13
  typical to go into something like a nonprofit or public
• 9:16
  health or ministry of Children and families.
• 9:21
  Private practice was it was an option, but the landscape was
• 9:25
  very different. Extended health benefits didn't
• 9:29
  typically cover counseling or therapy unless it was a with a
• 9:34
  psychologist. And even then it would have
• 9:37
  these really low thresholds. So like really only two or three
• 9:41
  sessions. So I think as a result, a lot of
• 9:43
  people the, the demand was a lot lower for therapy.
• 9:46
  It it, the field had like the field had not exploded to the
• 9:50
  point that it's at now, not even close.
• 9:53
  And at that point in my life, I was young.
• 9:57
  I was, you know, in my early 30s.
• 10:00
  I knew I wanted to start a family.
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  I knew I wanted to, you know, build a life in this super
• 10:06
  expensive city and I was very security driven and so I went
• 10:13
  for the nine to five job with benefits.
• 10:17
  I had some great jobs. You know, yes, like you
• 10:20
  mentioned, I worked at VGH in outpatient mental health.
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  I worked at a couple of community mental health teams.
• 10:28
  Loved it. Really rich work complex.
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  It was an amazing place to really learn a lot about the
• 10:36
  human condition and treatment. It was quite medical model, but
• 10:40
  you know, still great learning experience.
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  And so I did that for 10 years before starting my private
• 10:48
  practice. And I would say for the first
• 10:50
  five I was good. I really enjoyed it.
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  And then I started having my babies.
• 10:56
  My older daughter was born in 2008 and I think, you know,
• 11:02
  after my younger daughter was born, the reality of having a
• 11:08
  nine to five job that was very rigid in certain ways and two
• 11:14
  young children in full-time daycare, ramping up costs as
• 11:20
  well lifestyle costs of raising a young family.
• 11:23
  The reality, all of that, of all of that started to feel really
• 11:28
  misaligned with the reality of, of my work schedule and, and I
• 11:33
  just, I wasn't happy anymore. How am I gonna and your husband
• 11:39
  had a has a rigid job as well. He's a teacher from what I
• 11:43
  remember. And so that's not really
• 11:45
  something you can like, oh, hey, can I take off like it's there's
• 11:48
  you. Know yeah it was like I have to
• 11:50
  do the daycare drop off because you're gonna be in a classroom
• 11:53
  at the time that I'm dropping and it was a crazy life I would
• 11:57
  be like biking like biking one kid to to school biking the
• 12:01
  other kid up this hill to daycare and.
• 12:04
  Before ebikes. Rushing.
• 12:06
  Yeah. Before E bikes I had a chariot.
• 12:09
  Really old school. I have one.
• 12:13
  It's they're the best, but you know what they're it was
• 12:15
  stressful. I get to work like always late
• 12:18
  to work often didn't have haven't hadn't had like a proper
• 12:23
  coffee. So it was you know, it was
• 12:25
  stressful. It was.
• 12:27
  Delightful. I really like how you said I
• 12:28
  hadn't had a proper proper coffee when I thought the the
• 12:31
  end of that sentence would be breakfast.
• 12:35
  Breakfast went out, not coffee. And So what did you like?
• 12:41
  How were you even making that time work?
• 12:42
  It sounded like you stuck that out.
• 12:44
  What did you stick that out for about 5 years?
• 12:45
  Like you were having babies and like coming and going from work.
• 12:48
  Yeah, well, I started in 2015. I, I convinced my manager to let
• 12:57
  me do a job share with another therapist and that took my, my
• 13:02
  work schedule down to .5. So like, you know, 2 to 2 1/2
• 13:06
  days. No, like I think it was, yeah, 2
• 13:09
  1/2 days a week, I guess something like that.
• 13:13
  And so I stuck it out until 2015.
• 13:16
  Yeah. Wow.
• 13:17
  OK. And then what was that moment of
• 13:21
  realization that a change was needed even even after that
• 13:25
  because you did that? Actually, no, I want to pause.
• 13:28
  I want to ask how did you negotiate that job share?
• 13:32
  Because I wonder if it was less of a thing then then it might be
• 13:37
  there's more discussions about. Yeah, it was not a thing at all.
• 13:41
  It was not a thing and I I was part of a union and unions
• 13:48
  typically don't really like job shares.
• 13:51
  There was very little precedent for it, but I saw a window of
• 13:57
  opportunity because I think somebody was leaving a job
• 14:00
  share. And I know the management had
• 14:01
  been debating should we just make this a full time position
• 14:05
  and and stop making it a job share.
• 14:07
  But I kind of, I seized the opportunity and I pitched.
• 14:12
  I'm like I made a pitch. I was like, I can work the exact
• 14:15
  same hours as this person. I love this team.
• 14:20
  I've done some great work for this team.
• 14:22
  I want to stay with this team but I can't work full time
• 14:25
  anymore and so this is a way for you to keep me on and also a way
• 14:31
  for me to have some of my needs met.
• 14:33
  I don't know if they even cared about my needs being met, but
• 14:36
  whatever they went for, it is the important thing.
• 14:39
  Yeah, maybe less administration for them because they didn't
• 14:41
  have to like recreate a new job or fire somebody.
• 14:44
  They're like excellent. You can slot but but no, but I
• 14:47
  think I'm I'm being funny. But like that is that's
• 14:50
  important that like you saw the opportunity and you put it in
• 14:52
  probably I can picture you back then putting it in their terms.
• 14:55
  Like sure, you're like these are my needs.
• 14:56
  But like more importantly, these are your needs.
• 14:58
  Like you need someone who's committed.
• 15:00
  You don't have to hire someone. I already know the people the
• 15:03
  job like. I was always a bit of a marketer
• 15:06
  at heart. Yeah, I could tell.
• 15:08
  I can tell you're good, you're good.
• 15:11
  You'd swingable that. OK, so you did the job share.
• 15:14
  And then what was it about that that like, you know, what
• 15:17
  created additional friction to the point where you wanted to
• 15:20
  create another change? Well, let me walk back a little
• 15:23
  bit because I think it's important to name why I even
• 15:27
  what kind of pushed me to, because even going from full
• 15:31
  time to point 5 was it was a leap for me financially and
• 15:35
  security wise. And as somebody who's always
• 15:37
  been very security driven and likes a lot of certainty and
• 15:42
  doesn't like to mess with, you know, with my finances, it was a
• 15:46
  leap. But I think I want to name for
• 15:49
  your listeners something that probably goes on for a lot of
• 15:52
  women, which is I turned 40 and I was like, you know what?
• 15:57
  I'm going to die one day and I don't want to waste anymore time
• 16:02
  that like at this job, I was hearing from other therapists at
• 16:06
  this point because I'm, you know, dialed into this network
• 16:10
  and community of therapists. I was bumping into people who I
• 16:13
  had gone to school with or had met it workshops and they were
• 16:17
  doing private practice. And when I heard them talk about
• 16:20
  private practice, I felt jealous, like I felt envious.
• 16:26
  And I had this story that like, oh, but that's not available to
• 16:29
  me because my husband's a teacher and we need 2 solid
• 16:31
  incomes. You know, that's not available
• 16:34
  to me because it's really hard to build a private practice.
• 16:37
  And I had these stories and then I'd meet people who weren't that
• 16:41
  different for me and they were making it work.
• 16:43
  And I'd feel like, oh, but the, the discomfort was I'm not doing
• 16:48
  something that I know I, I could be doing.
• 16:51
  And that discomfort just rose to the extent that it over overrode
• 16:56
  my desire for stability, if that makes sense.
• 17:02
  Yes, wow. And that's just so there's
• 17:06
  something so powerful in that. And like the I mean it, it takes
• 17:10
  a counselor, I feel like to figure that out.
• 17:12
  Probably it probably didn't happen that quickly for you.
• 17:13
  But to be like, huh, Instead of stewing in the jealousy and
• 17:17
  letting it move, something that like you just named it and being
• 17:20
  like, it sounds like you were like this is jealousy and like,
• 17:23
  OK, what am I going to do about it?
• 17:25
  Am I going to be pissed and annoyed and make it about them?
• 17:29
  Or am I going to be like, OK, what does this?
• 17:31
  What's this breadcrumb for What's interesting?
• 17:34
  Yeah, yeah. Like, and as a therapist, I
• 17:37
  really believe that every emotion has, has a positive act
• 17:43
  like directive to it, you know, whether that's anger or guilt or
• 17:49
  whatever. There's a shadow side and
• 17:51
  there's, there's something we can learn from.
• 17:54
  And I was like, OK, yeah. Like I don't like feeling
• 17:56
  jealous. It feels like such a low
• 17:58
  vibration. I'd rather just be happy for
• 18:01
  people, but I'm not. So what's, what's the discomfort
• 18:05
  about? Like if I don't kind of turn
• 18:07
  into one of those bitter people, What's what's the flip side of
• 18:12
  jealousy and the flip side of jealousy of longing?
• 18:15
  Like I was longing for something that was better and more
• 18:20
  aligned. And when I really dug into that,
• 18:24
  it wasn't that hard for me. I was like, then I have I have
• 18:27
  to do this. I talked to my husband.
• 18:28
  I was like, this is happening. This is happening.
• 18:31
  We're going to make this happen. OK, I don't think that word
• 18:35
  longing gets used enough. That is such an interesting word
• 18:39
  and such an interesting reframe. Like I didn't, I didn't know
• 18:43
  that. I never thought about that.
• 18:44
  I never thought about like that jealous feeling of seeing the
• 18:47
  parent, the mom who's at the playground with their kid in the
• 18:50
  middle of the day and you're driving past and you're like,
• 18:53
  fuck you. And like that jealousy like
• 18:58
  comes in and you're like viscerally, like angry.
• 19:02
  That's the longing for you to. Have that, yeah.
• 19:05
  You're longing for that if you're.
• 19:07
  Longing with my children, yeah. And maybe it's not in the middle
• 19:12
  of day, but you're longing for more time with them.
• 19:14
  You're longing for like whatever that represents for you that is.
• 19:19
  So what do you do next? OK, so all all well and good to
• 19:24
  think your way through it, but then what do you do?
• 19:26
  Well, I, I got the, I mean, so I, I secured this job share and
• 19:32
  I immediately, you know, I had some fear.
• 19:35
  I was, I was like, OK, like I, there's lots of therapists out
• 19:39
  there. How am I gonna stand out?
• 19:42
  And I didn't have that much insecurity about my skills as a
• 19:46
  therapist, but I did have some insecurity about just, you know,
• 19:51
  things like marketing and showing up in the world.
• 19:54
  This was pre like, I don't think Instagram was even a thing back
• 19:57
  then. So thank God it wasn't a thing
• 20:00
  back then. But I built a website.
• 20:03
  I won. One of my strengths is writing.
• 20:08
  So I, I really labored over the copy of my website.
• 20:12
  I immediately wrote a bunch of blog posts on topics that I
• 20:16
  thought would be relevant. Had a Facebook page I networked
• 20:24
  like crazy. I would, I would one of my
• 20:26
  specialties at that time was maternal mental health.
• 20:29
  And so I contacted like every midwife in Vancouver and can I
• 20:34
  come meet you? I'd love to meet you.
• 20:36
  I specialize in maternal mental health.
• 20:38
  I think I had one clinic follow up with with me and I went to
• 20:41
  meet their team and received tons of referrals from this one
• 20:45
  midwifery group, which was great you know, same with naturopath.
• 20:48
  So I was very, you know, it maybe it wasn't fear, but it was
• 20:53
  like commitment. I was fiercely committed to
• 20:57
  plowing through and making this work.
• 21:00
  And I didn't have this, like, I wasn't manifesting anything.
• 21:05
  I wasn't, you know, asking the universe to look after me.
• 21:09
  It was very practical about it. Wow.
• 21:13
  Oh my gosh, that's so interesting that you're you just
• 21:16
  like went for. And what's interesting to me is
• 21:18
  the fact that you said that you're really security driven.
• 21:20
  And so I wonder if like the flip side of that is that you're
• 21:23
  like, hey, I'm gonna go for it then I'm not gonna like, this is
• 21:26
  really important. Make me money.
• 21:29
  Like if I'm not gonna be working full time, yeah, I need to, I
• 21:33
  need to close that gap. And, and at the same time, I was
• 21:37
  thinking what an amazing opportunity to really carve out
• 21:40
  a niche working with the clients that I love working with, which
• 21:44
  in in the health authority, you just you get what you get.
• 21:47
  You don't get to cherry pick the clients.
• 21:49
  I was like, you know what? I know who I work the best with,
• 21:52
  and those are the people who I want to see in private practice.
• 21:55
  And then that's how you speak to.
• 21:56
  That's who you're writing the copy for, the writing the blog
• 21:59
  post were and and all of that. OK, so knowing that there was a
• 22:03
  longing there and this drive to get you to this point, did it
• 22:08
  tell me like the real real of like, how did it satiate that
• 22:12
  longing and that desire? Was it what you thought it would
• 22:15
  be? Was there any sides of it that
• 22:18
  you're like, oh, now I'm working more than ever.
• 22:20
  Like I thought it was going to be like, you know, you know what
• 22:22
  I mean? Like.
• 22:23
  Oh yeah, Did it do it? Well, I mean, yeah, it, I mean,
• 22:28
  it was satisfying. The work was immediately
• 22:31
  satisfying. But what I hadn't expected was
• 22:36
  the mindset adjustments that you need to make when you go from
• 22:40
  working in the public sector to the private sector.
• 22:42
  Because in the public sector in my field, if you work in, in a
• 22:47
  hospital or wherever, you have a captive audience.
• 22:49
  I mean, I was outpatient, but still, if they, if, if a client
• 22:53
  didn't want to continue therapy, like, OK, there's, I have,
• 22:57
  there's like a long queue of people who can fill that spot.
• 23:01
  And I was confident in my skills.
• 23:03
  Whereas when people started paying me when, when my work was
• 23:07
  monetized and my clients were coming to see me, I experienced
• 23:12
  this surge of, I don't know if I want to call it impostor
• 23:16
  syndrome, but like, I have to deliver value, you know, have to
• 23:19
  deliver value to these people. They're paying me whatever
• 23:22
  they're paying me, you know, and I would kind of feel like is
• 23:25
  this, I think I was doing what a lot of new therapists in private
• 23:29
  practice do, which is just trying to like cram in every bit
• 23:34
  every intervention, every tool to the session.
• 23:39
  It was exhausting. And then if a client was like,
• 23:42
  OK, I'll just book online or I'll see you when I see you, I'd
• 23:46
  sort of hover over my calendar. Have they booked yet?
• 23:49
  What did I say? So that really took me by
• 23:52
  surprise because I previously had been pretty confident and it
• 23:57
  it took me a while to kind of work through that and talk
• 24:00
  myself down. Yeah, so interesting.
• 24:04
  I I'm thinking about like my early days of coaching and just
• 24:07
  like you're not supposed to, I mean it's non directive.
• 24:10
  Both of our fields are well yours can get directive in some
• 24:13
  cases if you're like using interventions etcetera.
• 24:15
  But it's like that, like you find yourself talking or
• 24:18
  explaining about something and then you're like, shut up.
• 24:21
  Like, let the person talk. Like some of my best therapy
• 24:23
  sessions personally have been when I've just, they asked one
• 24:25
  question and then I talked for an hour and I was like, oh, that
• 24:28
  was fantastic. And I'm sure, like a, you know,
• 24:31
  young therapist who was like, feeling like, very unconfident
• 24:34
  would probably be like, oh, my God.
• 24:36
  Like I didn't do anything. But like, that's the beauty.
• 24:38
  Yeah. So interesting.
• 24:40
  So interesting. Yeah.
• 24:42
  OK. So now you are a fantastic
• 24:48
  business owner. You have stepped out of really
• 24:51
  doing a lot of the one-on-one. I know you've got a few select
• 24:53
  clients that you maybe you shouldn't shouldn't even say
• 24:55
  that to tell anybody that you even take on one to one.
• 24:58
  But you are more so on the business side of the practice.
• 25:01
  You have two locations, a ton of therapists working with you.
• 25:05
  What is it like in this kind of almost like third transition of
• 25:08
  your career? It's.
• 25:11
  I never thought I would be here. Honestly, I I never thought that
• 25:17
  I would be a business owner. I was very happy to just have my
• 25:23
  practice. I eventually just quit that job
• 25:26
  and went into full time private practice.
• 25:29
  It was perfect. Um, loved it and, and then the
• 25:35
  pandemic hit. Everybody wanted therapy during
• 25:39
  the pandemic. It was a bit, it was a bit
• 25:44
  overwhelming. And then I was, and then I
• 25:46
  realized this is a great time to maybe take on associates.
• 25:51
  And so I built the team that I have now, which is open space
• 25:54
  counseling. It's, it's a large practice now
• 25:57
  with eight, I think I think 18 therapists, including interns, 2
• 26:03
  locations and it's wonderful. I love it.
• 26:08
  So I've tapped into something new Now.
• 26:09
  I I kind of tapped into a portal that I didn't realize I would
• 26:15
  ever get into, which is leadership and things like
• 26:19
  marketing and business development and yeah, like
• 26:25
  program development and things like that.
• 26:27
  And it's great, yeah. Congratulations.
• 26:30
  It's so cool. And when we were talking about,
• 26:33
  I wanted to have you on as a guest expert, but as we got to
• 26:36
  know each other and you were telling me your story, I was
• 26:37
  like, oh, but we need to talk about your story too.
• 26:39
  So thank you for sharing. Kind of like that pathway to get
• 26:43
  here because I think that's just really inspiring for those who
• 26:46
  especially for those, I don't think I talk about this enough
• 26:48
  on this podcast. I've not had enough of these
• 26:50
  conversations where it's like somebody who's really has a,
• 26:53
  what's the word, like a niche kind of work.
• 26:57
  Like in that like you are a counselor, like you have a
• 27:01
  designation. You are one thing.
• 27:02
  Like we talked, we could talk a lot about like, oh, you can go
• 27:04
  here, you can go there. But like when you've got this
• 27:06
  one designation like that can be, I can imagine like pretty,
• 27:10
  it feels like you're pigeonholed and you're like, what can I do
• 27:12
  now? If I were to pivot, like that's
• 27:14
  a complete start over versus, you know, I used to be in
• 27:17
  marketing and then I kind of went over here and went over
• 27:19
  there. So I think that's really
• 27:20
  interesting to just show that like even in something where you
• 27:22
  are, you know, you have a designation, there's still
• 27:26
  always choice and there's like opportunities and options, which
• 27:29
  I think is is so neat. Yeah.
• 27:33
  Now let's go back to this jealousy.
• 27:37
  Yeah. I just think like we were
• 27:39
  talking about it a bit before, but I think there's something so
• 27:42
  interesting there. And you and I kind of came up
• 27:46
  with this, this notion of talking about jealousy because I
• 27:49
  was like, nobody talks about this.
• 27:51
  It is an absolute elephant, I think, in that we like, you're
• 27:57
  not going to talk to the person who you feel jealous of about
• 27:59
  your jealousy unless you have a really secure relationship and
• 28:02
  you're really secure in yourself.
• 28:04
  But like nobody talks about that.
• 28:06
  So let's speak to the, the listener who's like, I just feel
• 28:10
  jealousy in all aspects of life in that like now I have kids and
• 28:14
  I'm jealous of the people who I hate saying this, but you maybe
• 28:18
  there's times where people are like, my life was different
• 28:21
  before I had kids and they look at that or they look at the
• 28:23
  people who have multiple kids and you know, I mean, there's
• 28:26
  just, I feel like it comes up so much or you look at Instagram
• 28:29
  like, how do you eat when you hear that nugget of jealousy
• 28:32
  when you are a counselor, where do you start with that?
• 28:37
  I say, let's explore it. There's there's so much shame
• 28:41
  and jealousy, but why? Like, you know, it's, it's a
• 28:45
  normal feeling. It can, it can be linked to a
• 28:47
  lot of things. It can be linked to, you know,
• 28:49
  having maybe some self worth issues.
• 28:52
  It can be linked to reality. Like life is hard and it's hard
• 28:55
  when people are flaunting like they're seemingly easy,
• 29:00
  beautiful curated lives on Instagram.
• 29:04
  And when we don't name it, we don't get to explore that, we
• 29:08
  don't get to learn about it. And, you know, there's sometimes
• 29:12
  that, you know, sometimes that exploration leads us to some
• 29:15
  acceptance and grief. Sometimes that leads us to, you
• 29:21
  know, yes, there's acceptance and grief, but is there any
• 29:26
  opportunity for change? Like, you know, even if it, even
• 29:31
  if it's a small change, even if it's a subtle change, is there
• 29:35
  something in here for me to maybe challenge that?
• 29:39
  Like, is there a status quo that I've been upholding that I
• 29:41
  haven't really tried to challenge?
• 29:45
  Enough. Hmm.
• 29:47
  Does that do you find that comes up a lot in terms of gender
• 29:49
  roles? You mean when people like?
• 29:56
  What do you mean by that? Yeah, like in the like I'm
• 29:59
  thinking of even, I mean, I feel like I could use you as an
• 30:02
  example. Did you feel, did you personally
• 30:04
  feel like, OK, we need to make a change in this dynamic?
• 30:08
  We can't both be working full time.
• 30:10
  This is crazy. Our life is nuts.
• 30:12
  Did you feel like you had to make the change because they're
• 30:14
  the mother? Um, I felt like it made more
• 30:18
  sense for me to make the change because the nature of my work
• 30:23
  compared to my husband's work just had more opportunities.
• 30:26
  Like I mentioned earlier, he's a teacher and there's not that
• 30:30
  much he could do, you know, in terms of, in terms of
• 30:34
  entrepreneurial ambitions, whereas for me there was and I
• 30:38
  am more entrepreneurial just by nature.
• 30:40
  So I, I felt that I probably would have struggled to do this
• 30:45
  if he were, if you didn't have a solid job, like if he, if he
• 30:50
  were in a career track that were more kind of, I don't know that
• 30:54
  that had more seat, like it was more seasonal or, or fluctuated
• 30:58
  more. But his, his work, you know,
• 31:00
  while not particularly high paying, was very it was very
• 31:04
  stable and had like excellent benefits and regular time off.
• 31:09
  And so that afforded me the ability to, you know, work
• 31:13
  really harder at certain times or it just, it allowed me to
• 31:18
  take a few risks that would have otherwise been difficult.
• 31:20
  That's cool. What's the example you said
• 31:23
  grief like sometimes there's grief in in this process and
• 31:27
  what would be what would be some examples?
• 31:28
  Like there's probably literal grief, but do you mean like kind
• 31:31
  of metaphorical grief of like you have to kind of leave
• 31:33
  something behind as we talk about jealousy?
• 31:35
  It's like, you know, like what are what some, what might be
• 31:39
  some situations that people might be, you know, grieving.
• 31:42
  Yeah, I mean grief in terms of that.
• 31:48
  The jealousy might bring something up like, you know,
• 31:52
  maybe I see that somebody has, um, that's like a beautiful home
• 31:58
  or something, or like that. They, they make this salary that
• 32:01
  I don't know if I'll ever make that.
• 32:03
  And that causes some envy because although I don't know
• 32:06
  anything about their life, maybe it's hard in other ways.
• 32:09
  I know one part of their life is probably easier than mine.
• 32:13
  And naming that and being like, yes, yes, there is an aspect of
• 32:18
  my life that has more hustle or that that has more, you know,
• 32:23
  scarcity or whatever. And I'm allowed to.
• 32:27
  He's like, that is kind of that that's something that's just
• 32:29
  part of my reality. And and grief might seem like a
• 32:32
  strange word, like it sounds so heavy, but it also is a word
• 32:36
  that that kind of relates to accepting reality.
• 32:40
  And reality is not always perfect.
• 32:44
  It's like when you have a really difficult child, you know, part
• 32:47
  of that, you know, when you compare your child to other
• 32:50
  peoples children and you're like, yeah, you know what?
• 32:53
  My life might have complexities because of this kid that are
• 32:57
  just realities for me. And I'm, I'm allowed to feel sad
• 33:01
  about that. I'm allowed to feel scared about
• 33:04
  that. That's part of my process.
• 33:07
  And when we had the paradoxes that when we name something like
• 33:12
  grief and and acceptance, then we can, it frees us up to say
• 33:17
  like, OK, and be that as it may, what are my what are the
• 33:21
  opportunities that might not be tapped into yet?
• 33:26
  Yeah, well, how, how when you're in that mode, I feel like
• 33:31
  jealous that they call it a green monster if you like, for a
• 33:33
  reason, because it really does. It can like, grip you.
• 33:37
  You can feel really victimized in it.
• 33:39
  And it just, man, it's such a, it is such a strange feeling.
• 33:43
  It's very tense and visceral and gross.
• 33:48
  Oh, gosh, yeah. And it feels very linked to
• 33:50
  shame often, you know, like I'm such a bad person.
• 33:54
  Like what? Like, like I, I'm hearing about
• 33:56
  somebody's life and like, I, I'm such a bad person that I'm like
• 34:00
  bitter about it or it's shame. Like why have I not created this
• 34:04
  for myself? Like why do I not go on this
• 34:06
  vacation? Why have I not built a business
• 34:09
  like this person has? Like what's wrong with me that I
• 34:12
  haven't done this and other people have?
• 34:15
  So it, I think that's the that's the dark side of jealousy.
• 34:20
  And that's why, you know, my kind of, I don't know, a
• 34:25
  solution to that. It's not a solution.
• 34:27
  But my approach to that is to say, yeah, it's hard.
• 34:30
  It is hard living in a world where some people have things
• 34:35
  that you don't have, you have complexities that other people
• 34:39
  don't. It's hard when we don't really
• 34:41
  know. Like it seems like everybody has
• 34:44
  this easy ride. But yeah, of course you have
• 34:47
  feelings about that. And those feelings don't make
• 34:50
  you a bad person. Also, your life doesn't make you
• 34:53
  a bad person. Like, you know, it's, we have
• 34:57
  this, I don't know, it's maybe it's the moment in time in which
• 35:02
  we live where we think it should be easy and it should be
• 35:06
  effortless. And I don't know whether that's
• 35:09
  just like Western, like sense of entitlement or the capitalist
• 35:15
  patriarchy, I don't know. But there's just this assumption
• 35:20
  that like, if I'm struggling, if if I'm like having a hard time,
• 35:26
  I'm doing it all wrong. But why?
• 35:28
  Why do we think that life is hard?
• 35:30
  It is it. As Doctor Becky says, it feels
• 35:34
  hard because it is hard. Yes, it's so true.
• 35:38
  It's so it would be so interesting to like really get
• 35:41
  down to the bottom of it, but it's also like because life is
• 35:44
  always evolving and changing. The goal posts are always
• 35:46
  moving, but they always have right.
• 35:48
  People would only live to like 30 before and now we live to and
• 35:52
  and so with ever. I don't know, like that's a
• 35:54
  weird, a weird relation, but it's like everything is always
• 35:58
  changing and evolving. So yes, there's no actual
• 36:01
  handbook because every year, every generation is different
• 36:04
  and we've got different, different complexities and it's,
• 36:07
  it's so it is so true. Like I think there's something
• 36:10
  really like individualistic about this time.
• 36:14
  And I think we're now like a lot of people are now talking about
• 36:17
  the, you know, coming together as mothers or coming together as
• 36:21
  parents and like finding your, your, your, you know, your crew
• 36:26
  and, and that's all really important.
• 36:29
  But then at the same time, we're like terrified, like you said,
• 36:33
  we're terrified for people to see like what's under the hood
• 36:37
  and. Yeah, exactly.
• 36:39
  And and exactly why, but also like somebody has to call uncle
• 36:45
  here. Like you know what somebody has
• 36:47
  to be like, here's a glimpse underneath my hood.
• 36:50
  It's hard. You know, this is what I'm
• 36:52
  dealing with today. And I've found that to be pretty
• 36:55
  empowering. Like when you start to truth
• 36:57
  tell, people have told me that they appreciate that about me.
• 37:00
  Like I, I would go to mom groups and people would be like, oh,
• 37:04
  the joy, the joy and I'd be like, this is hard.
• 37:08
  Like I don't, I don't know if I like this.
• 37:10
  I love my baby, but like, I don't know about this, you know?
• 37:14
  Yeah, 100%. OK, I've asked this.
• 37:17
  I feel like I've asked this on the podcast to somebody else,
• 37:19
  but what are your feelings around in day-to-day life?
• 37:23
  Not talking about in a counseling session?
• 37:25
  Because in a counseling session it's like no holds barred.
• 37:27
  But but around like the general, like there's, there's some
• 37:33
  people who share in a guarded way.
• 37:35
  There's some people who share like too much where they're like
• 37:39
  dumping. And I heard somebody one time
• 37:41
  say that it's like, better to share and maybe more in a public
• 37:44
  setting. Maybe this is what they were
• 37:45
  relating to, to like business owners, but it was like, you
• 37:48
  know, in some cases you really need to be mindful about maybe
• 37:50
  sharing the scar and not the wound and I.
• 37:55
  Thought yeah. That was interesting, but I
• 37:57
  don't know what. What's your reaction when I say
• 37:59
  that around this whole notion of like, sharing?
• 38:03
  Read your audience and not everybody deserves your
• 38:06
  vulnerability. Not everybody.
• 38:09
  You don't need to share the whole story with every person.
• 38:12
  I think it's really important actually to kind of gauge who
• 38:16
  you're talking to, how much you can trust them, what their
• 38:21
  capacity even is like are they your person for sharing?
• 38:25
  Like you just because you have a lot of stuff doesn't mean that
• 38:28
  you're going to feel better after unloading it on this
• 38:32
  particular person. And so I think there's like
• 38:35
  different levels of sharing. I think there's sort of that you
• 38:37
  can test the water by, you know, I find sleep really hard or I'm
• 38:44
  kind of at a crossroads with my career and see that just see the
• 38:48
  reaction, gauge the reaction. If people sort of on a sort of
• 38:52
  keep it at a surface level or or gloss over it or aren't very
• 38:55
  curious, they're not your person.
• 38:57
  Yes, but you'll see like, I mean, I think it the more you do
• 39:00
  it, the more you kind of get you see the the glimmer in
• 39:04
  somebody's eye with that sort of tell me more.
• 39:07
  Yeah. Leaning.
• 39:08
  In the leaning in and that's your person.
• 39:12
  I think, you know, the term oversharing is thrown around a
• 39:15
  lot, but I think with that refers to is that feeling of
• 39:20
  maybe I was sitting with something really uncomfortable.
• 39:22
  You know, sometimes we have these like internal
• 39:27
  conversations with ourselves and our head and we just get so
• 39:30
  tired of all of our stuff that the first person that we see
• 39:36
  that day who who we actually have a moment with were just
• 39:41
  listen to me, I need to talk to you.
• 39:43
  And then we feel kind of like, oh God, that would that was a
• 39:46
  lot. That's sort of that
• 39:47
  vulnerability home hangover. Yes, yes.
• 39:50
  And then you're, you're texting the person or the person's
• 39:52
  texting you being like apologizing, Like how often does
• 39:55
  that happen? Like, is this just me and maybe
• 39:58
  my friends or whatever, but I feel like we're when we finally
• 40:02
  see each other and we're like pent up and we, you know,
• 40:04
  unload, there's often exchanges of like, Oh my God, I'm like,
• 40:07
  apologies for being like. Oh man, sorry.
• 40:11
  Like I really like dumped on you there.
• 40:14
  Or I feel like I was in a weird mood, you know, like, I don't
• 40:16
  know, maybe it's not happening quite as much anymore because
• 40:19
  we're all just like, we all got a bunch of kids and it's like
• 40:21
  just crazy. But I feel like that's less so I
• 40:24
  I mean, again, it's like if that's a friend and they're
• 40:29
  apologizing, my tendency would be to say like, you're good.
• 40:33
  Like we're friends. That's what friends do.
• 40:36
  Bring it. Yeah.
• 40:37
  Like, bring it, girl. Yeah, But I do think there is
• 40:42
  something to like calibrating you're sharing.
• 40:45
  You know, it's sort of like early on in my career, I had a
• 40:48
  supervisor who talked about this brick wall.
• 40:51
  And if you always have a wall up, you're not going to be very
• 40:54
  close to people. But if you remove a brick and
• 40:57
  see how that feels and then let the other person remove a brick
• 41:01
  and then you remove a brick and I remove a brick and like
• 41:03
  there's this kind of Co sharing this Co dismantling of the wall
• 41:09
  that feels a lot more collaborative and just a lot
• 41:13
  more like connection versus to this this one sided, like my
• 41:19
  walls coming down. Yes.
• 41:22
  OK, that's cool. I like that a lot.
• 41:25
  OK, here's a question for you. You're the perfect person to ask
• 41:27
  this too. OK.
• 41:29
  I can't think of example I wish I could give like.
• 41:31
  I would be very open to sharing an example.
• 41:33
  Maybe 1 will come to me, but OK, you've got that situation.
• 41:37
  You're a parent, you're in it. You feel that feeling of
• 41:40
  jealousy around a particular person.
• 41:43
  Maybe we'll actually use social media as the example because I
• 41:45
  think this is pretty real and there's somebody that keeps
• 41:49
  popping up and there's something about it, about the stuff that
• 41:52
  they're posting about their life that you just are really jealous
• 41:57
  of And you want to like mute them on social media.
• 42:02
  Or maybe they're even close friends with you and you want to
• 42:05
  just like distance yourself. Like, but then you're like, I
• 42:08
  don't want the jealousy to hold on to me so much that I actually
• 42:12
  feel like I have to distance myself from somebody that I
• 42:14
  actually really enjoy. How like that seems, that seems
• 42:18
  very real. That's real life.
• 42:20
  But how and how do you work through that so that you can
• 42:24
  like, not let it hold you and grip you like that?
• 42:28
  Can I be totally honest? Yes, yes, I hide people all the
• 42:31
  time. I mute people all the time.
• 42:34
  I I don't think there is a problem with that.
• 42:36
  Yeah, I also work on my hang ups all the time, like my hang ups
• 42:41
  about money and opportunity and whatever.
• 42:46
  I work through that all the time and I don't want to feel, you
• 42:51
  know, there's certain, I mean, I shouldn't say all the time, but
• 42:54
  yeah, I do routinely. Just I want social media for me
• 42:59
  to be an uncomplicated place. There's already so many
• 43:03
  opportunities for me to connect with people.
• 43:06
  I feel like if I mute somebody, even a friend on social media
• 43:10
  for the time being, it doesn't mean I'm blocking them from
• 43:14
  friendship. I I can still be in touch with
• 43:16
  them. It helps me.
• 43:18
  It feels like a a boundary I'm setting that allows me to love
• 43:22
  them and to love me at the same time.
• 43:25
  I like that. I like that.
• 43:28
  OK. OK, so muting is OK, so there's
• 43:31
  a. Bit of it.
• 43:31
  It's totally fine and. As long as you're working
• 43:34
  through those what I'm hearing though, as long as you're not
• 43:36
  just being like I'ma just mute you and leave.
• 43:40
  It this way, I think if you're muting a lot of people all the
• 43:44
  time there, there might be something to look into there
• 43:47
  that you're tolerance for. Yeah, you might need to do some
• 43:51
  of that deeper work on the envy and the life satisfaction, the
• 43:55
  self worth. But I don't know, I kind of
• 43:59
  liken it to I, I mute people for sort of either because they're
• 44:03
  like just bombing my Internet with like photos of like this
• 44:07
  and that and the other thing. And I just need a break from it.
• 44:10
  Like, I love this Amalfi Coast vacation, but like I, I don't
• 44:14
  need it like multiple times a day, you know?
• 44:17
  But I also think there's times in our lives where we feel kind
• 44:20
  of raw about some of the things we're going through and we don't
• 44:23
  need to be activated every time we turn on our phones.
• 44:29
  And I kind of liken that too. Like when a woman is struggling
• 44:32
  to conceive and she's invited to like 9 baby showers.
• 44:36
  Like you don't have to go to baby showers when you're having
• 44:39
  trouble getting pregnant. Not like, in fact, don't go to
• 44:42
  baby showers. Like self preservation mode.
• 44:45
  And so I think it's self-care. It's good self-care to choose
• 44:50
  you know who you want to be exposed to.
• 44:53
  Muting someone doesn't mean that you hate them.
• 44:55
  It doesn't even mean that you're blocking them out of your life.
• 44:57
  It just means you don't need to know everything about their
• 45:01
  life. Yes, yes, I like that.
• 45:04
  Now you also mentioned action and the like agency that comes
• 45:08
  with, you know, the, the awareness that's created and
• 45:12
  then the OK, So what am I gonna do about it?
• 45:14
  So there's like, I think that's an important one to to now
• 45:17
  discuss because I really want to hear your thoughts on like, OK,
• 45:20
  So what are you going to do about it?
• 45:21
  Like there's probably some things that are like, OK, I'm
• 45:23
  just going to sit with this. It's going to be uncomfortable
• 45:25
  and that's OK. Like it's just a reality.
• 45:27
  You know, a huge example would be like losing a parent and
• 45:30
  being like, I can't bring them back.
• 45:32
  Like there's no agency around bringing back that loved 1.
• 45:36
  And so that's something they have to sit with.
• 45:38
  But say it is something around maybe it is around money.
• 45:41
  I think that's a big one. I think that's a big one for
• 45:42
  this audience in this phase of life.
• 45:44
  Yeah. And this time it things are
• 45:46
  expensive. And I can't speak for everyone
• 45:48
  listening, but you know, there's like, you want to go to the
• 45:51
  Amalfi Coast and you want to do all the things and you.
• 45:53
  And a lot of this takes the money.
• 45:55
  It's the money, yes. It's the money.
• 45:58
  How does a person like in your, and this is kind of big sister
• 46:01
  advice. I know you can't like you're
• 46:03
  speaking to a big audience, not like a one-on-one client, but
• 46:05
  like, yeah, how do you move through that?
• 46:08
  Like deciding what you want to do with that and what change or.
• 46:13
  It's an excellent question and I really think there is some
• 46:16
  values work to be done here because money.
• 46:20
  I hate it when people say oh money doesn't matter.
• 46:23
  Money doesn't make you happier. Like, I don't know if that's
• 46:27
  true or maybe money doesn't make you happier.
• 46:29
  That's what the research says. But it definitely opens doors.
• 46:33
  And I think the majority of people are on a daily basis
• 46:39
  confronted with doors that are closed to them because of their
• 46:45
  financial circumstances, vacation doors like, you know,
• 46:51
  business starting goals, housing goals for sure.
• 46:56
  And I think the values work to be done is kind of like, OK,
• 47:02
  yes, I long for things. Let's go back to that longing.
• 47:06
  What is it that I'm longing for? Let's say it's adventure.
• 47:10
  And I get really triggered when I see this amazing vacation.
• 47:13
  It's it's not that I long for the Amalfi Coast.
• 47:17
  It's that I long for being transported.
• 47:19
  I long for like maybe ocean or I long for just nature and or a
• 47:24
  sense of adventure, you know, distill what that is like.
• 47:27
  What is what are these? What are what is the jealousy
• 47:31
  evoking? That's actually like a fair
• 47:33
  longing and like, can you create that at, at a scale that makes
• 47:37
  sense for you? You know, So if, if it's
• 47:40
  adventure, it's like, OK, the Amalfi Coast is not in the
• 47:43
  cards, but maybe like a day off, like on this on the sea is like
• 47:49
  maybe I go to Bowen for, for the night or like, you know, how can
• 47:55
  I create this at scale? Like maybe I sign up for a
• 47:57
  kayaking class. I don't know.
• 47:59
  I mean, I don't know every single listener, but I would bet
• 48:02
  that everybody can do this exercise for themselves.
• 48:06
  You know, it's like maybe I can't afford like a detached
• 48:13
  house with a full on garden, but maybe I can really research how
• 48:19
  to create like a herb garden and put it like right in a place
• 48:22
  where I see it every day. So it's like creating magic at
• 48:26
  scale, I think is something that we haven't been like we're not
• 48:31
  particularly creative at doing because we were just inundated
• 48:35
  with like the bigness of it all, you know?
• 48:38
  So true for the people in the back, like the trend on TikTok
• 48:45
  Instagram with like romance romanticized.
• 48:48
  No romancing romanticizing. Yeah, romanticizing is the word.
• 48:52
  Like everyday life. There's like these, it's funny
• 48:55
  because when you really like look at what these people are
• 48:57
  doing, it's like that's like kind of weird.
• 48:58
  But they're like making their coffee and it's very aesthetic.
• 49:01
  But when you look at really what they're doing, they're just
• 49:04
  taking a minute. They're doing, they're making
• 49:06
  their coffee with intention. They're watering their garden
• 49:10
  with a beautiful jug that they got from Goodwill maybe like,
• 49:13
  yeah, but they're taking the time to do it.
• 49:16
  And it's like this room this like creating romance in
• 49:19
  everyday life really is just slowing down a little bit and
• 49:22
  it's. So.
• 49:23
  True wavering and like, yeah, making it sexy.
• 49:26
  Like, I don't know, there's something so interesting.
• 49:28
  And I think that's kind of what you're saying too.
• 49:30
  It's like you don't have to go to the Amalfi Coast and go on
• 49:33
  this like crazy, you know, balcony where you're taking the
• 49:36
  photos. But like, probably what's
• 49:38
  cheaper is maybe if you can afford it, spending a couple 100
• 49:40
  bucks and making your your your balcony at your house, your
• 49:44
  apartment, beautiful. Like go source your stuff on
• 49:47
  like marketplace. And it's like, oh, do I really
• 49:48
  want to spend a couple 100 bucks?
• 49:50
  Like, well, it's cheaper than the couple thousand.
• 49:52
  And is it going to give you that like romance that you're looking
• 49:55
  for and craving? They're like that, you know,
• 49:57
  $100 pottery class or bad or kayaking.
• 50:00
  Yeah, that's that's a lot of money.
• 50:02
  So I think it's really empowering when you like are
• 50:05
  resourceful, like when you kind of accurately suss out your
• 50:09
  resources and like create something within your resources
• 50:12
  and also appreciate smaller things.
• 50:16
  Like I, I went through this phase where I felt the need to
• 50:21
  like try out every Michelin starred restaurant in town.
• 50:25
  It's ridiculous. No, OK, I'm exaggerating and I
• 50:28
  don't have a big budget. It was just more like this
• 50:30
  sounds like a fun way to spend the year, like go try out
• 50:33
  different measures. Well, I think I made it to my
• 50:36
  third and then my husband was like, I am never spending this
• 50:39
  type of money again on a meal. This is ridiculous.
• 50:43
  And I was kind of like, it really is ridiculous.
• 50:46
  Actually, I am not better off for having eaten this delicious
• 50:51
  yet like embarrassingly exorbitant meal.
• 50:55
  And so since then, I've really have an appreciation for like
• 50:58
  getting this amazing coffee, you know, like going to this, this
• 51:03
  cafe bakery that has like these exquisite pastries and coffees,
• 51:08
  you know, that I can afford that doesn't set me back.
• 51:10
  And it still has this pampering luxury kind of feel to it.
• 51:14
  So I think if like if you're after luxury, then create it in
• 51:19
  a in a way that's not going to break the bank.
• 51:22
  OK. And you're saying something
• 51:23
  though, not not though that is. So that's so interesting around
• 51:29
  the trying. Like the Michelin thing is
• 51:31
  interesting because you tried it and then you were like, oh, OK,
• 51:34
  I like really overhyped that. Or I hyped it to the point where
• 51:38
  I thought I needed to go to 10, but like 1 was fine.
• 51:40
  So maybe there's something there too, right?
• 51:42
  It's like they're like, treat yourself to like the, you know,
• 51:46
  if you're going to be going to like, sure, maybe you'd like to
• 51:47
  go to like some fancy spot quarterly, but maybe you like
• 51:50
  save up. You go once and then you can be
• 51:53
  like cool, like feel proud about that.
• 51:55
  Or do, I don't know, there's like there's something to be
• 51:57
  said about like trying the thing or trying a away.
• 52:01
  You know, it's like, yeah, courts aren't working, but you
• 52:04
  don't even like, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer and I went
• 52:07
  and did like an internship in law and I was like, oh,
• 52:10
  excellent. That was such a low, low hanging
• 52:13
  fruit. There was no, I didn't go to law
• 52:16
  school. Like it was such an easy thing
• 52:18
  to just trial to be like, OK, I tickled that and good God, I
• 52:22
  don't want to be a lawyer and like done.
• 52:24
  Like, you're like, I don't need to be a Michelin reporter
• 52:27
  person. I don't need to be the person
• 52:28
  writing the blogs on the Michelin stars because like, oh,
• 52:30
  I tried it. I did a little trial and that
• 52:32
  was fun. Cool.
• 52:33
  Yeah, I think it's really important for people to confront
• 52:37
  their and, and name and discuss the money jealousy and the money
• 52:44
  stuff because again, we live in a world where money gives you
• 52:47
  power, money gives you status, money makes you enviable.
• 52:52
  And that can feel really disempowering when you're
• 52:54
  struggling financially. And like a lot of people are
• 52:58
  struggling financially in this in our neck of the woods, which
• 53:01
  is Vancouver Northam. I mean, it's expensive.
• 53:05
  The economy is like, I don't know what's going on with it.
• 53:09
  Nobody really knows. So I think it's important to
• 53:12
  really normalize that because to really take the shame out of
• 53:16
  saying like this is really like this is this is affecting me.
• 53:20
  You know, yeah, yeah. And I think even just this
• 53:23
  conversation, like listening to this and hearing two people talk
• 53:26
  about hopefully, like people are going to feel better about
• 53:29
  unless shame around around the feeling of jealousy.
• 53:32
  Like I think that's that's what I hope people take away from
• 53:34
  this conversation is just like it is so normal.
• 53:37
  Like as a non therapist, I'm like, yeah, this is like the
• 53:40
  most normal feeling in the world is the therapist.
• 53:42
  You're like, yes, I hear this in my office or I've heard this in
• 53:44
  my office for 20 years. Like it's not.
• 53:46
  You're not alone in this. Like you're not alone.
• 53:49
  Yeah. But we have this sort of, even
• 53:52
  if we know like a small handful of people who are really well
• 53:55
  off or don't seem to have financial concerns, they become
• 54:00
  larger than life in our minds, like, oh, I bet they don't need
• 54:04
  to worry about this or like they don't have this problem.
• 54:06
  True, they don't. But you know what?
• 54:09
  Other people are in your boat. Yes, and they have other and,
• 54:13
  but it's not probably not helpful to be like, oh, but they
• 54:15
  probably have like bigger problems or more problems.
• 54:17
  I think what I'm hearing from this conversation that I'm
• 54:19
  getting from it is like the neutrality around it, it doesn't
• 54:23
  have to mean anything. Yeah, it doesn't have to mean
• 54:26
  it. It doesn't have to be this like
• 54:28
  wow, they have a lot of money, but but their child is a real
• 54:31
  handful or or. Like no, it doesn't have to be
• 54:34
  able. To be married to that guy, you
• 54:36
  know, it doesn't need to that actually keeps it active.
• 54:39
  It it keeps us in that like I need to find I need to win
• 54:44
  somehow. I need to make this like, you
• 54:47
  need to come out the top. And that just keeps the whole
• 54:50
  thing active. Rather be like, yeah, that's
• 54:53
  hard. It is.
• 54:54
  It's hard to have friends with money.
• 54:56
  It's like it brings some stuff up for me, but I just need to
• 54:59
  name. And maybe now that I've named
• 55:01
  it, I can move on from it and just go back to my reality.
• 55:05
  And, you know, mute them for a for a little while on Instagram
• 55:10
  so that I can get a bit of space.
• 55:12
  But still, you know, go for an expensive coffee every so often
• 55:16
  with them. Exactly or like and then your
• 55:19
  take away is the like, OK, figure out what is it triggering
• 55:22
  for you. I don't know if you like the
• 55:23
  word triggering, but like what is it activating for you?
• 55:25
  What value is that thing, that situation, whatever it is
• 55:29
  attached to? Like is it the the adventure?
• 55:31
  Is it the what are you longing for?
• 55:34
  Like what is in that long longing for?
• 55:38
  Like to, you know, I do think, and this is a big of a meeting
• 55:42
  this it's a bit of a meteor subject to like talk to your
• 55:45
  therapist. But I do honestly think that if
• 55:48
  you're getting snagged a lot by envy and jealousy and
• 55:51
  comparisons, this is sometimes related to some invisible
• 55:56
  inferiority, superiority access in your mind.
• 56:00
  There's this pecking order and you're like, BC people doing
• 56:04
  better than you and you're, you're kind of mentally falling
• 56:07
  down that pecking order though, you're this inferior person.
• 56:11
  But the pecking order is not real.
• 56:13
  It's, it's, it doesn't exist. It, it only exists in our minds.
• 56:17
  And the feelings still deserve to be explored.
• 56:21
  But it's so these systems are so powerful and maybe they have to
• 56:25
  do with, you know, upbringing, you know, scarcity in our
• 56:29
  upbringing or in fear, like made being made to feel lesser than.
• 56:33
  I think there's usually if if we're getting snagged, there is
• 56:37
  definitely something worth exploring that you might not be
• 56:42
  able to explore on your own. You might need to, you know, you
• 56:46
  might need to find a therapist who can really help you dig into
• 56:50
  that so that you're not constantly like and trying to
• 56:55
  unravel it for yourself. Open spacecounseling.ca right?
• 57:01
  Saw your website. About yes, that is.
• 57:03
  But yeah, yeah, sure, why not? But you know, any therapist
• 57:06
  would be good. Not trained professional.
• 57:09
  A trained professional. A traditional.
• 57:12
  Yeah. And to call back, not chat.
• 57:13
  TBT. And yeah, no, no, no, I mean,
• 57:17
  yeah, no, like, you know, any honestly, if therapy is too
• 57:21
  expensive for you because therapy is expensive and you
• 57:23
  don't have benefits, in turn, therapists can help with this.
• 57:27
  There's great books. You know what?
• 57:29
  I'm just reading a book right now on this topic called The
• 57:32
  Soul of Money. Excellent book.
• 57:34
  It really gets into the like the psychological aspects of the
• 57:39
  haves and the have nots and just Western preoccupation with
• 57:43
  wealth and how it makes you a better person and all of this.
• 57:47
  Really good book. You could probably find that for
• 57:49
  20 bucks. OK, OK, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try
• 57:52
  to make a remembering remembering and make a note to
• 57:54
  put that in the show notes too. And I just had Jessica Moorhouse
• 57:58
  on the podcast. I don't know if you listen to
• 57:59
  that episode, I think you'd really enjoy it.
• 58:01
  She wrote a book called Everything But Money.
• 58:03
  She's this really unreal financial counselor Canadian
• 58:06
  too, which is which we love. And Oh my gosh, she's so cool.
• 58:10
  She has like money baggage and she's got money stories and she
• 58:13
  speaks about that in her book and she just talks about how
• 58:16
  like the meaning of money and like just it's so interesting
• 58:19
  because she's a she helps people like create budgets and things
• 58:22
  like that and be smart with their money.
• 58:24
  But this book is like all about money mindset.
• 58:26
  So I feel like that could be your next maybe read something
• 58:28
  like fun in between. But I think, yeah, that one too.
• 58:31
  I'll put that episode of stuff. Yeah, she's super cool.
• 58:34
  Oh my gosh, she's really cool. OK, this has been incredible.
• 58:39
  You're coming on again. Our next topic is going to be
• 58:41
  you even juicier. I don't know, we have to think
• 58:44
  of something fun because I feel like I can ask you anything.
• 58:47
  You can totally AMA. Oh my God, how fun would that
• 58:53
  be? Let's get the people to vote.
• 58:55
  What other questions? Yeah, I, I really enjoyed this
• 58:58
  conversation, Andrea. It's been great.
• 59:01
  I love talking about these things.
• 59:03
  I'd be happy to come back. You're so good on a mic.
• 59:06
  OK, where can everybody find you to learn more about do you?
• 59:12
  Well, first question, do your counselors that work on your
• 59:15
  team, do they work in other provinces cross-border?
• 59:17
  How does how does this all work? Yeah, so the therapists on my
• 59:21
  team for sure work in BC If there's any.
• 59:26
  It's a bit tricky because they can see clients from other
• 59:30
  provinces in which the provinces are not regulated for therapy.
• 59:36
  Because if they're regulated, then, you know, they they've got
• 59:39
  a college and the college doesn't like it when they see
• 59:43
  therapists from outside their province eye roll and regulate
• 59:46
  it. Yeah.
• 59:48
  The unregulated provinces I believe are Manitoba, Prince
• 59:54
  Edward Island. Oh my gosh.
• 59:56
  I don't even want to say because I don't want to get it wrong,
• 59:59
  but I can find out. Yeah, Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  We do have a couple therapists on our team who work with
• 1:00:04
  clients. From Ontario as well as BC,
• 1:00:07
  yeah. Reach out and ask us.
• 1:00:09
  We'll do the research for you. You can also find us.
• 1:00:12
  We're on Instagram kind of sporadically at Open Space
• 1:00:16
  Counseling. Counseling has two elves, by the
• 1:00:20
  way. That's an important.
• 1:00:22
  Canadian. Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  Canadian counselling, Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:25
  Open Space Counseling and our website is Open
• 1:00:27
  spacecounseling.ca. Beautiful.
• 1:00:30
  And I asked this to everybody, but I recorded another episode
• 1:00:33
  today and I forgot to ask the guests, so I'm gonna have to DM
• 1:00:36
  her. But Alana, what are you still
• 1:00:38
  trying to figure out? Oh my gosh, how many?
• 1:00:43
  How many items are allowed on this?
• 1:00:45
  List. OK, I'm still trying to figure
• 1:00:47
  out my business, like the long term forecast for my business.
• 1:00:51
  I own these two clinics. I love them.
• 1:00:54
  I'm still trying to figure out like, do I want to continue to
• 1:00:58
  expand? Do I want to keep it sort of as
• 1:01:02
  it is and enjoy sort of the the ease of that, like just knowing
• 1:01:07
  what to expect. I just turned 50.
• 1:01:10
  My kids are sort of they're still at home.
• 1:01:13
  They're teenagers. But like, it's given me a bit of
• 1:01:16
  a timeline, right? Like, I don't wanna be working
• 1:01:19
  forever. I don't wanna be in hustle mode
• 1:01:21
  anymore. So I'm still trying to figure
• 1:01:23
  out that whole balance between like really hitting the
• 1:01:27
  accelerator and coasting. OK, I love it and you're just so
• 1:01:33
  inspiring and if you don't follow me on Instagram, go to at
• 1:01:36
  all figured out Andrea, because you are not going to believe
• 1:01:40
  that Allana's 50. That is like when you told me
• 1:01:42
  that I was like, first of all, you just I feel like you can
• 1:01:45
  shoot the shit with anybody. You could probably speak to like
• 1:01:47
  8590 year olds or you could speak to like a 12 year old and
• 1:01:49
  you probably talk the same everybody.
• 1:01:51
  You're just like, you're such a chameleon in that, but also you
• 1:01:54
  do not look not that 50 isn't, I don't know anyways, you just
• 1:01:57
  look like you're 25 and you look like.
• 1:02:01
  You're my new favorite person. You also look like Topanga from
• 1:02:05
  Boy Meets World, which I think I've told you before.
• 1:02:07
  I'll have to look that up. Yeah, I think you did.
• 1:02:09
  You've never look it up, you've never been told that I'm like,
• 1:02:12
  I'm gonna put a side by side on Instagram 100%.
• 1:02:15
  OK, cool. Yeah, I'd love to see that.
• 1:02:18
  No, I've never been. Told that she's beautiful.
• 1:02:20
  Spitting Image. Spitting Image.
• 1:02:21
  OK, Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom, your
• 1:02:25
  truth, your honesty. You're amazing.
• 1:02:28
  Thanks Andrea, I'd loved it. I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:02:33
  Thank you so much for listening and since you made it this far,
• 1:02:36
  please share this episode with a fellow parent who you love,
• 1:02:38
  respect, and want to support. And while you're at it, hit me
• 1:02:43
  up on Instagram at All Figured Out.
• 1:02:44
  Andrea, I would love to meet you and hear what you are trying to
• 1:02:48
  figure out these days.