Latest / The You Project / #2213 The Disease of Kings - David Gillespie

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#2213 The Disease of Kings - David Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a champions's stated and it's Craig. I would
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: not be David. I would be Craig. So when I
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: said it's David, probably should have started with it's Craig.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Let's go David. Now lime in Queensland.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good to be here.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Uh, you've been a busy boy. You've been. We won't
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: say what because it's top secret, but you've been. FIGI
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: you had no what is You didn't tell me what
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: your impression was, apart from the fact that you got
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: treated like right, put your teeth in harps, like royalty,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: and so raid around like someone fancied. Did you enjoy Fiji,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to be honest, not really.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's hard to live it up in
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: a place where you are being treated like royalty. When
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: you look out the window and see a third world country,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: you know it's Yeah, there's a lot of incongruities in Fiji.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw that too, and I went there and
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: we were driving through, like you said, a third world reality.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: And then I don't know where you stayed, but we
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: got to this bridge and it went, it went over
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: this little waterway and onto this little island that had
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: all of these.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Resorts yeah, where all the big resorts are all the
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: big yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So you drive, yeah, you drive out of like the
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: slums and then into Hollywood. And I didn't say I
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: wasn't without guilt. I'm like, oh, this is yeah, like
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: you said, there's a lot of incongruity here, there's a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: lot of disc connection and yeah. So you're in razzle
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: dazzle and you get back to go back to the
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: airport and it's yeah, it was an interesting experience. I
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: didn't I was there for like I told you, a
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: day because I went to do literally a forty five
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: minute gig, which is ridiculous in itself. But I don't
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: know what it was like for you. But it was swelteringly.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Hot for me, so midwinter for me. All the locals
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: were getting around in jumpers because it was twenty three
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: degrees so talking about how cold it was, it seemed
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: fired to be. But they were telling me it was cold.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Favorite place in the world that you've ever been that
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: you didn't think you would love it, but you did
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  Speaker 1: love it. What's that place?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: You know? This is going to sound really really parochial,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: but since I was knee hide or grasshopper, I have
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: always gone to a beach in Queensland, col King's Beach
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: at Caloundra, which is near Brisbane to the north. And
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I've been to a lot of places, beaches and resorts
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and so on all over the world, and I honestly
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: can't find anywhere as good as that. It's just clean,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: it's beautiful and hard to get past. Really.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Apart from the beauty and the esthetics and the nature,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: which is very understandable, what about culturally or experientially where
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: you Because I went to somewhere that I'll tell you
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: about in a sec that you know, it just looked
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: like being in rural Victoria, to be honest, but I
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: loved it so much. Is there a country that where
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: you just loved the the energy or the culture or
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the experience that you had there.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are. I spent a fair bit of time
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: in southern Germany in my youth, and you know, sort
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: of down towards between the border between Germany and Austria
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: near Saltzburg and that sort of it's a sort of
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: rural part of Europe, and yeah, I like the attitude
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: of the people there and the end. Yeah, it's it's
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: if I had to choose somewhere other than here to live.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: That'll probably be it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: We're talking before that. Fiji claims to be the happiest
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: place in the world. Yep I thought for a minute
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  Speaker 1: it was Nepal. Wasn't Nepal meant to be the happiest
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: where people are the happiest and the least stressed. Maybe
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: that's changed. I think I think they.
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  Speaker 2: I think they do these these surveys every year, and
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  Speaker 2: they're hardly hard science.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I would say, I guess, I'd say, no science, no science.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And but you know, they come up with predictable
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  Speaker 2: places as being happy, you know, where people or at
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  Speaker 2: least the rest of the world probably perceives people as
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: having no stress. And genuinely, one thing about Fiji you
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: can say is the people are very happy. I mean
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  Speaker 2: they seem happy, you know, they don't seem stressed about much,
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  Speaker 2: so you could see where you might get that impression.
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  Speaker 2: And but I don't put much stored by these things
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that The best survey I saw of this sort was
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I came across when I was researching the book about
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I think it was one of the psychopath books I did.
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  Speaker 2: But the survey was interesting because it was talking about
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  Speaker 2: how happily, how people rate their level of happiness, and
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: it was comparing types of community, so rather than comparing countries,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: it was comparing types of community. And what it seemed
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  Speaker 2: to find universally is that people in the most individualistic societies,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: so that is where it's everyone for themselves, are the
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  Speaker 2: least happily, sorry, the least happy in general. So that's
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  Speaker 2: places like the United States, which is the most individualistic,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: followed closely by Australia, the United Kingdom and so on,
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  Speaker 2: they're the least happy. And people who are in societies
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: that are very strongly based on community ties. So and
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that's not all the it's not happy clappy, that sounds
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: that's what it sounds like a bit terbal journal. But
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  Speaker 2: I'm talking about the reality, which is that people are
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  Speaker 2: heavily dependent on community. There are large families, They depend
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  Speaker 2: on each other, they rely on each other, they share everything.
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  Speaker 2: So societies that are like that tend to self rate
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  Speaker 2: as being happier than societies that are individualistic. And I
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  Speaker 2: guess that's consistent with what we know about our biology,
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  Speaker 2: which is for most of evolutionary time, humans consisted lived
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  Speaker 2: in groups of no more than one hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 2: people where you're a fair chance of knowing all of
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: them and being probably related to half of them, and
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  Speaker 2: so you could trust everybody and you knew that they
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: were bound by a lot more than just you know,
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  Speaker 2: feeling good about you. It's the same sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: If people know they can be recognized and found, they're
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: much more likely to behave well in groups than if
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  Speaker 2: it's anonymous, which is why road rage exists. People think
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: they're anonymous when they get in a car and you
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: get a glimpse of their true self, whereas when they're
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: identifiable standing there in front of you, they're more likely
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  Speaker 2: to behave.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a sociologist called Dumbar. I'm sure you've heard
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: of Dunbar's number, or maybe not. No, Yeah, so it's
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: called Dumbar's number. And you're right. The ideal seems the happiest,
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  Speaker 1: the most practical and functional size of community is that
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: is what you said. It's about one forty fifty. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's used quite a little bit in sociology and human
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: behavior across the thing. But I went to Van. Have
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: you ever been there?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Don't think so.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: So the capital is place called Port Vila, Hampton Street,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: no port Vila capital, like the main road makes Hampton
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Street look like Hollywood, And I mean that respectfully. It's
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: so well when I went, it was a few years ago,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: but so nineteen fifty five. But the people happiest people
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I've ever met. And I went to an island, one
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: of the islands called a Spiritu Santo, very Latin and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: very like no power, no electricity per se. They had
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: generators and we stayed in a essentially a one or
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: two star resort. But it was the most beautiful place
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  Speaker 1: on earth. But they cooked like most of the meals
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  Speaker 1: in the ground, like the fish and all kinds of stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember just I met this guy called Mackenzie
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: and we struck up a friendship of sorts. And it'd
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  Speaker 1: never been off the island. I can't remember how big
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: the island was, but like no bigger than say, I
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: don't know, five or six seven kilometers by two, like tiny,
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  Speaker 1: this tily tiny speck in the ocean. Here's the happiest
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  Speaker 1: dude I've ever met. And no idea of anything in
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  Speaker 1: the world, Like I've never seen television, never heard radio.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, I guess that's the point out that I
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: came to in writing The Recovery Plan is happiness isn't
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  Speaker 2: about adding things to your life to make you happy.
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  Speaker 2: People think it is. People think, you know, if I
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  Speaker 2: only added a BMW, i'd definitely be much more happy
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  Speaker 2: than I am now, Or if I added a million dollars,
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  Speaker 2: I would be definitely more happy. Yes, but it isn't,
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  Speaker 2: you know, when you look at the studies on this stuff,
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  Speaker 2: it isn't about adding things because there's always someone who's
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: got more. There's always so it doesn't matter who you are,
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  Speaker 2: even you know, unless perhaps you're an elon mask. There's
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  Speaker 2: always someone who's got more of whatever it is you desire.
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  Speaker 2: And as soon as you get that thing, you are
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  Speaker 2: then frustrated that you don't have the next level up.
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  Speaker 2: And so happiness is mostly about removing things that cause unhappiness.
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  Speaker 2: If we self rate our happiness, most people rate themselves
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  Speaker 2: if they're feeling normal about six out of ten. It
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  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they're aesthetic, it doesn't mean they're euphoric.
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  Speaker 2: It just means they're not unhappy, they're content, they're wombling along.
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  Speaker 2: And what affects that is sure, there's the occasional euphoric
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  Speaker 2: spike if you get a head of dopamine because you
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: just won lotto or something, and that might push you
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  Speaker 2: to ten, but then you're back down to six pretty
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  Speaker 2: much straight away. But you can degrade that six to
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: a fairly consistently low two or three by having things
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: that introduce anxiety into your life. So introduce anxiety depression.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: And we've talked endlessly about the things that do that.
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  Speaker 2: Mostly the apps that you carry around in your pocket
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: are designed to do exactly that. By the way, we
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: should talk about this next week, the massive lawsuit that's
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: going on against Meta at the moment in California. That
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: is I think it's twenty nine states ganging up on them.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: That is very reminiscent of the first big tobacco cases.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: We won't do it today because I haven't done enough
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: research on to talk about it sensibly, but maybe bookmark
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: that for next time.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: All right, we'll do that. Speaking of what you were
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: just talking about, sometimes there's just weird synergy us put
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: posts that I put up. I put this up today
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  Speaker 1: on Insta. It's one of my whiteboard ramblings, and it says,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: sometimes success is less about what we can acquire, achieve
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: and change and more about what we can let go of,
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  Speaker 1: un learn, own up to and be happy without. There
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  Speaker 1: you go. How about that you read in my mind
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  Speaker 1: that synergy do It also seems.
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  Speaker 2: Like I read you your inst which of course I don't,
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  Speaker 2: but there you go.
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  Speaker 1: Of course you don't, and would you You've got exactly
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: that's what I want. You've got your own whiteboard in
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: your head. You've probably got thirty of them. So today
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about something that's completely irrelevant to
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: our preamble, but that is you've written. It's on substack everybody.
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  Speaker 1: It went up about literally four minutes before I jumped on,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: maybe eight minutes, called the Disease of Kings. That's the
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: name of the post. Rather me intro it or try
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: to do a snapshot of it, tell us what that's
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: about and why you wrote it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So there's been a bit of publicity this week
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: and I'm not sure whether it's National Kidney Disease Week
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: or not. I probably should have figured that out, but
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: I know there's been a bit of publicity about kidney
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  Speaker 2: disease this week in Australia, and there's good reason for that.
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  Speaker 2: Kidney disease is out of control in this country. It
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  Speaker 2: is a seriously debilitated, debilitating disease and has increased. I
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: think it's like sixty percent in the last I did
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: have the stat there, Yeah, sixty percent between twenty eleven
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  Speaker 2: and twenty twenty four in Australia. And the couple of
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: things about this kidney disease. You can lose ninety percent
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: of your kidney function and not notice it, so completely
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: symptom free. But when that last ten percent goes, you
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: go from symptom free to needing dialysis. And as treatments go,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: dialysis is about the ugliest of them all. It certainly
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't leave you a lot of time for the rest
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: of your life because you are stuck in a hospital
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: for hours on end, multiple days a week, having your
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: blood cleaned by a machine. And so it growing at
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the rate it is where it now occupies. It is
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: now responsible for fourteen percent of all hospitalizations in Australia.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So everything that puts people in hospital, fourteen percent of
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: the hospitalizations are caused by this one thing, which is
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: chronic kidney disease needing dialysis. And that's not even all
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: of the disease, that's just the bit that needs treatment.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: By the way, there is no cure for this other
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: than a kidney transplant, and the dialysis treatment is essentially
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: a life sentence for as long as you have to
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: have those kidneys. And with increasingly more and more people
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: having the disease, the chances of you being the recipient
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: of a kidney transplant, you know, vanishingly small.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So yes, yes, And as.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Bad as all of that is, it's five times as
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: bad in the Aboriginal and Torrestraate island of population. So
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: it is a significant disease state which is affecting Australians,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: and not just Australians but those of the Austrans stats
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: because we're Australian.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: The interesting thing.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And what this article is about is how science has
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: come to understand why it's really just about the sugar
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and nothing else. There's no doubt about this. The mechanism
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: is clear, the science is clear. It's just sugar. It's
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: caused by fructose and the way we metabolize fructose in
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: our body when we consume fructose. Now, just a reminder,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: fructose is one half of table sugar. So table sugar
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: consists of two simple sugars, glucose and fructose joined together
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to cause it to and that makes molecule called sucrose.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: As soon as we can consume sugar, we split those
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: two molecules in half. The glucose gets metabolized for energy,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: and we have terrific control systems for that. We don't
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: consume too much of it, and it is used productively
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: by every cell in our body. Fructose cannot be used
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: by any cell in our body and is turned immediately
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: into fat by our liver. The turning into fat bit
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: has a byproduct called uric acid, and uric acid sounds nasty,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: and it is because it crystallizes in our bloodstream. And
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: when uric acid crystallizes in our bloodstream ends up messing
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: up our coffee filter basically, which is our kidneys. So
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: our kidney's work is a filter on the bloodstream. Lots
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: of really fine little blood blood vessels. You fill that
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: full of crystalline needles that rip them apart. You can
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: start doing enormous damage.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: There's usually a.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Sign that this is occurring before it happens with another
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: disease called called gout, which now is also exponentially rising
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: in Israel population. Gout very very painful arthritis of the
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: toes and lower extremities, and that's the crystals collecting in
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: your joints at the bottom of your body, and it's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the first sign that this is going on. So gout
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: is a good sign that there may be a problem
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: with the kidneys because it's all on the same pathway.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: The reason I call this the disease of Kings is
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: that King Henry the Eighth famously suffered from gout made
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: him very, very cranky. Now, he was one of the
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: first ever sugar hounds, so you know, of course, you know,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: he lived from you know, I think fourteen ninety one
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: to fifteen forty seven, which was yeah, yeah, you knew that.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: So he was the dawn of the age of sugar.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So that was when sugar first started to enter the
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: United Kingdom, well in England. At the time, nobody was
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: buying it from the local lolly shop. The stuff was
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: outrageously expensive because it had to be very very carefully
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: made and imported, and it was treated like gold dust,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: so only very very rich people, for example, the King
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: of England, could afford to be eating any sugar at all,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: let alone in any serious quantity. He famously liked it
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: so much that He would order up banquets of sugary
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: treats and then consume them all. This is a guy
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: that then in his twenties was considered a bit of
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: a hunk. He was a thirty five inch waist. We
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: know that because he had a suit of armor made
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: for him when he was twenty three and they had
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: to know his waist slide to do it. He was
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: six foot two, very athletic, he had loads of jousting
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and in general very fit guy. But that's not the
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: image we remember about him. Most people, if they think
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of King Henry the Eighth at all, probably you think
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of the pictures of him when he was in his forties.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: He was very obese man by then, weighed in yeah,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: some say somewhere north of one hundred and sixty kilos,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: had a fifty four inch waist and.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Terrible, terrible gout.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: So he'd been chowing down on sugar, one of the
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: few people in England that could afford to do it,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: had all his teeth rotted out.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: By the way.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: This started a trend amongst the aristocracy, which I think
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I've mentioned to you before. People who couldn't afford to
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: eat sugar had had their teeth blacked with tar so
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that it looked like they could.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Look on my teeth to write it out. They also
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: wooden benches or something.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, yes, God, well, they are the people
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: who really needed and they were the ones who actually
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: could afford the sugar. But if you want to be
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: in the early sixteenth century, then you got yourself some
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: tar and blacked out your teeth so that it looked
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: like you would afford sugar anyway. So the king was
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: having feasts of all the sugar. It was making him fat,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: It gave him gout and probably also gave him kidney
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: disease by the time he died in his early fifties.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: So the gout was then called the disease of kings,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and for many many years after that, right up until
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: probably the early two thousands, if you were to ask
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: a doctor what causes gout, they would say to you, Oh,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that's people who feast a lot on meat and drink
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: lots of alcohol, like King Mary Henry the eighth did.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And it was rubbish, had no basis in science whatsoever.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: It was just a guess. But it also was the
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: reasoning behind a lot of why we were told, you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: our dial back on the animal fat and stuff like that,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: you know, because it's going to make you fat and
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: give your gout and kidney disease and so on. Trouble is,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: there was no biochemistry to back any of that up,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: none whatsoever. It was just a flat out guess, and
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: a guess based on what they thought King Henry eight,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: by the way, which is he was having all those feasts,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, showering down on chicken legs and turkeys and
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: all that sort of thing, duck swans. But the reality
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: wasn't that a that that wasn't true, That wasn't what
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: he ate, and well it probably ate that, but he
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: also ate an awful lot of sugar. But also that
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: there was no biochemistry to explain it. There was nothing
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: to explain how you got from consuming those things to
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: massive overdoses of uric acid which destroyed the kidneys. The
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: biochemistry caught up in the early two thousands, interestingly by
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: a guy who I mean, I hesitate to cite his
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: research if it wasn't so systematically reproduced so fellow by
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: the name of Johnson. Early two thousands in the United States.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: He gotten onto this idea and he could prove it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: He could prove that if you gave animals and eventually humans,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I think he did the studies in humans as well,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: a jolt of sugar, you know, had them drink a
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: large amount of soft drink or something. Then their blood
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: pressure would go off the scale, their uric acid levels
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: would go up, and you know, he theorized, okay, well,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: what would happen if we take the sugar away. Did
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: these things reverse and then we can see that they're
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: directly associated. So he did that and their conditions were
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: improved immediately. So he took athletic I think one of
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: his studies was a group of US football like college
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: football players, gave them, gave them a load of sugar
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to drink. They drank it, blood pressure went up, acid
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: levels went up, and then he took it away and
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: it all went back down again. He theorized and in
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: fact ended up patenting a drug that would lower uric
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: acid levels in the general population. So there was a
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: bit of a motivation behind his experiments. But that's not
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: to say what he found wasn't right, And it was
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: replicated many many times after that that.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: So the mechanism became really really clear, to the point
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that by I think twenty twelve, the BMJ was publishing
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: really large consensus things that said, oh, well, we kind
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: of got this wrong. Turns out it's fructose that does
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: all this damage. So yeah, there's that. It hasn't really
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: made it down to the street level yet. In that
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: if you ask the average GP, they may or may
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: not blame fructose for gout or kidney disease. They may
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: still say, oh, that's alcohol and too much red meat.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: But the reality is the science says no, it's fructose.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And you don't have to go too far to find
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: fructose in our modern diet. It's in everything on the
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: supermarket shelf, which is bad bad news for us, and
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: neatly explains why kidney disease is rising at the rates
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: that it is.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: So I just had a quick search on how much
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: sugar the average Josie, So this is not exceptional. The
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: average Jozsie has eighty two grams of sugar a day, which,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: depending on if it's four or five grams of teaspoon,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: is sixteen to twenty tea spoons per day. Is the
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: average person not the bad person?
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: That's probably that's not all of course, Well that that's
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: also that's also rubbish. That number is probably added sugar, right,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: which is a unique.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: That's true, that's true.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: That's a unique little term invented by the sugar industry
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: to try and diffuse these stats. If you actually go
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: to the underlying stats and figure out how much sugar
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: people are actually consuming, it ends up being about twice
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: that much.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So because things that aren't included in numbers like that
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: are things like orange juice and so on that naturally
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: occurring sugars as they call them, but they are actually
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: higher in froctose than anything else. So when you get
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: past the smoke screen, I mean, the sugar industry has
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: been trying for several decades now to mess up those
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: statistics to the point where I think the ABS just
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: stopped counting it in nineteen ninety eight. So we don't
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: have reliable sugar consumption statistics in Australia. And if you
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: go to the US and look at equivalent statistics, it
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: works out at around about one hundred and fifty to
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty grams per person per day total
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: sugar consumption, half of which is fructose.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Wow wow wow wow. So AD grams were probably similar
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: to them.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you think about it, it's not hard
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: to get there. Like a bowl of cereal, glass of
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: apple juice for breakfast push back from the breakfast table.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: You're already at twenty tea spoons of sugar. That's before
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: we go near a Mars bar or a coke. Yeah,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: so it's really not hard to get large numbers in
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: sugar consumption. And like you say, those average numbers, there
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: are people considering consuming considerably more than that, and people
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: can consume considerably less than that.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Is. I know, once people have fucked their kidneys, it's
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: dialysis yep, for eternity. But people who have done some damage,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: let's say ten out of ten is fucked, let's say
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: two or three out of ten is. They're on their way,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: but they're not in significant distress yet. It's survivable. You
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: can't be undone. I don't know.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: About undone, but the damage progression can be stopped. So
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I remember I said that you can lose ninety percent
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: kidney function and still be perfectly fine and symptom free.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: So we have big dondancy built into that system quite
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: obviously from the fact that we've got two of them,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: and we can work with one for starters. So there's
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of redundancy in the system, and you can
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: function with fairly degraded kidneys and not have symptoms. But
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know that stopping sugar, I don't. I don't.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I'm not aware of any good science that says that
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: stopping sugar reverses any damage you've done. I guess if
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the damage you've done hasn't resulted in you having symptoms,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: then at least it's not going to get any worse
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: if you stop consuming the fructose.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I wonder if just because Australia and America and
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: England are massive mass of consumers of diet soft drinks,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that moves the needle in any way.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Not because there's no fructose.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Right, there's no fructose in diet soft drinks. They're a
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: whole different kettle of fish. I mean, well, Henry's was
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: scoffing this stuff down what four or five centuries ago,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: and we're starting to worry about it. Now. Come back
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: to me in four or five centuries. I'll let you
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: know if the artificial sweetness are any better for us.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure you'll still be alive. Yeah, you know what,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: amazes me about the King Henry thing. Surely there was
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: even though it was five hundred years ago. Surely there
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: was some scientist or doctor or someone in his stratosphere
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: that went, oh, he eats all this stuff and he's
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: got this condition. Maybe there's a relationship.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Well maybe there was, but if there was, they certainly
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: didn't write about it, and they certainly didn't do anything
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: about it. Medicine at its time, at the time was
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: in its infancy. I would imagine they weren't worrying about
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: metabolism or whether certain foods had certain effects and others
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: had different effects, to the extent they thought about it
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: at all. The theory that circulated at the time was
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: he just ate too much. You know, there was no
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: consideration given as to why he ate too much. He
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: just ate too much. And as we now know, fructose
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: disables our appetite regulation so that it allows us to
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: eat too much of everything, not just more fructose, but
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: of everything, and that's part of the reason that it's
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: responsible for a fair chunk of the obesity that we see.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was trying, I'm just thinking right now, was
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: it Da Vinci that was chopping up people five hundred
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, he used to do really nice drawings of it.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: There was a medical research of sorts. He was a
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: pioneer that was about the same centur was it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, now you've got me on the knowe. It feels
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: about right, but I'd have to google it. This is
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: you know, we're without our researcher here. We're stuffed.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Although yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh well anyway, so what
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I mean. I know this is true because it's not
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: just true with fructose and kidney disease. But everything seems
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to lag by ten or twenty years, doesn't it, like
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: between you know, where we get new science, we get
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: we figured things out, but there's no You would think
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: maybe there'd be a flow on into medicine within the
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: next two to five years, but it just doesn't happen.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a good reason it doesn't happen, which is
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the analogy about parking ambulances at the bottom of a cliff.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Our medical system is an ambulance at the bottom of
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: a cliff. Yeah, it's there to deal with you after
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: you jump off the cliff. It's not about stopping you
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: jumping off the cliff. And so someone in that system
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: it does not have a lot of time to be
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: considering the research and wondering about what might cause this disease,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: because they're so damn busy treating the outcome, which is,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: you know, people dying of kidney disease.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think chat GPT has got an issue with you.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: As I told you, I just ran it through Chatters
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: because I only only got the article literally three or
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: four minutes before we were recording. These are quite accusatorial,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: the questions that wrote, of which I haven't asked one.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: By the way, your central argument that fructose is a
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: major driver of chronic kidney disease, what do you believe
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: is the strongest human evidence supporting that causal link? And
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: then it's like me, how much of that evidence, how
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: much of the evidence you're relying on comes from animal
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: or laboratory studies, and how confidently can those findings? But
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: it's very negative.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I would recommend that chat has gone take a look
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: at I think it's a twenty twelve article in the BMJ.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I can't remember who the authors were, which does a
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: really good job of analyzing all of the available evidence.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: So yeah, but this is the interesting I find this
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: interesting about AI as well. I was talking to my
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: publisher during the last few weeks while we've been on
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: break because we're trying to think about the next book,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: and she was telling me one of the real challenges
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: for the publishing industry at the moment is why would
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: someone buy a book when you can type the question
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you want answered into a search engine and now you
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: get the AI answer. So you get a couple of
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: pages which summarizes everything you can possibly want to know
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: about it in a highly cogent way. So why would
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: you go out and buy a book about that? And
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: so one of the primary tests for publishers now he
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: is to do that exactly that. So if someone comes
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: to them with a proposal for a book, they type
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: the central question in the the book is going to
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: answer into Google and get the AI response, And if
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: the AI response is exactly what the person was proposing
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: to write a book about, then they say thanks, but
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: no thanks. So you've got to come up with a
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: contrary view to what the consensus as published by the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: AI engines. We'll say, and I think we've just passed Greg,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: We've just we've just had a whole episode about something
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: that the AI would have said differently.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually reading the dot points. It's like Gillespie says,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: it's quite there. Well, uh, that is that is very interesting.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: That is something that I would think a lot of
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: my listeners, although most of my I think are very
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: health conscious, but there's probably a percentage that are overdoing
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the fructose, and it's good to have that awareness. What
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: about just regular, good old fashioned whole fruit, of course,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: well you get a free pass.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: You don't get a free pass on it just because
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: it's supposedly healthy for starters. Fruit as we know it
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: has only really existed in the last fifty years. You know,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: these the fruits that we see in supermarkets now have
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: been very intentionally bred to be bigger and sweeter tasting
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: than their natural counterparts. But apart from anything else, frutose
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: is nature's dessert, and if we were to try to
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: encounter it in nature, we'd have to pick it from
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: a tree and suck it out of a banana or
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: an apple or something, and we're just not going to
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: be doing that on any kind of a frequent basis.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Average human consumption of fructose was the equivalent of about
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: two tea spoons of sugar in King Henry's day, so
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: he was a big outlier on that scale, the man
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: in the street, and he was getting it from fruit
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: and a bit of honey if you've got lucky. The
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: average human consumption of fructose from those sources now is
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: about the same. It's about two tea spoons a day
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: from fruit and a bit of honey if they're lucky.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: It's just we've added thirty eight tea spoons of sugar
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: to that total. So we're getting our cells up to
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: King Henry's kinds of totals, although he probably had even
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: more than that. And it's that that's doing the damage.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: It's not the two teaspoons you get from the occasional
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: piece of fruit or a bit of honey. It's the
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: sugar in everything that's the problem. So is the fructose
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: in fruit better for you than the fructose in everything else? No,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: it isn't. Are you likely to ead large quantities of it?
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Probably not unless you're fruitarian, and fruitar notably frequently die
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: of pancreatic cancer. So that's a topic for another day.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: We can talk about the effect of fructose on the pancreas.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Let's park that for a minute. My last question has
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: got nothing to do with our conversation. But what you
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: just prompted a minute ago, how hard is it to
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: come up with a new topic, something that's fresh, and
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: something that's a bit sexy, and something that people might
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: want to buy and pick up off the shelf.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I found it actually really really easy because there's one
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: topic that I've been trying desperately to do properly since
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I first wrote about it in twenty fourteen, which is
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: seed oils. I still haven't cracked how to communicate that properly,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: because it is the most dangerous thing you can put
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: in your body. Makes fructose look perfectly benign by comparison.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I've done a terrible job of communicating it. I've written
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: at least two books about it, neither of which have
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: really taken off. And if you type in now what
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I say about seed oil into Chatters, it'll come back
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: with a very scathing attack on Gillespian his evil senses
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: of things about seed oils. But the science is really
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: really clear. So I think my next book is going
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: to be yet another go at trying to make it
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: clear why this is so dangerous, because I think it's
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: more the most important health topic we've got.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Is there any. I'm sure there are lots of people. Well,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of my listeners have not only heeded your
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: advice but implemented it into their nutritional operating system. Are
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: there any doctors that have become advocates or any nutritionis
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: like I think because they're taught differently. But is there
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: any shift in the kind of the paradigm on sugar? Yes, definitely.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: When Sweet Poison came out two thousand and eight, I
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: think it was I was really much swimming against the tide.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I had the Heart Foundation attacking me, I had the
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Dietitians Association attacking me, and I was really surprised. I
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: didn't think that what I was saying was all that extraordinary.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I was just saying you shouldn't eat sugar, which struck
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: me as pretty sensible advice. But everyone else thought I
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: was insane for saying it. And that's shifted a long
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: way now. I mean it's twenty years later, but it's
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: shifted a long way. You know, Now we have the
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Heart Foundation has backed off on its criticism of it,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: and in fact, you know, gets involved in anti sugar campaigns.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Dietitians Association doesn't dare say we shouldn't eat sugar. It's
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: changed a lot, and the range of sugar free things
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: you can now buy is massive compared to then there
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: was none, so that has moved. And I don't think
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: any sensible doctor would say to you there's nothing wrong
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: with eating sugar. They might not say it'll give you
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: kidney disease, as chatter implies. I'm still off the planet
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: with that, but they will say this is definitely not
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: a good thing to be consuming seed oils different kettle
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: official together. There's a group the paleo enthusiasts, who are
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: very much against seed oils, but they're often considered to
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: be a little bit out there by most mainstream people,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: and some of the other things they believe in and follow,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: to me, don't have good scientific backing. But there isn't
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: really any mainstream acceptance of what I'm saying about seed
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: oils at the moment. The chemistry is there, the science
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: is there, they can read it themselves, but a lot
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: of people are in denial about how bad it really is.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Well, somebody who went before you and did a pretty
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: good job. He was just a voice crying in the wilderness, Jesus,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: not unlike yourself, just a voice in the wilderness, but
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: eventually they came. Was he against oils? Yes, quite famously.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: It's in the it's the sixty seventh book, the Book
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: of the Book of Nutrition, just after revelation. That's right, mate,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: it's always fun. Appreciate you. Thanks for the chat again,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: and we do it one next week or the week after.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, whenever you want. Whenever you want, we can
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: do that other one that you want to do.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let's talk about the lawsuit against Meta, because
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's quite interesting. It's a big ginning me too.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: All right, we'll suck BFE here, but thanks, thanks mate,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure.