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Having Your Own Back · Imagine The Good

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're chasing your next goal, but you can't remember the last time you felt truly present or fulfilled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're surrounded by people you somehow still feel alone.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You built the success you were told to go after, but you quietly wonder, is this all there really is?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then this podcast is for you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So here are your hosts, Jason and Rob.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Imagine the Good.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Robin Maher.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Jason Dorland.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're going to build on our first episode of No Enemies Within with a focus on being for ourselves, having our back in hard times.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: This principle is important to me because I find it so helpful in difficult times.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can think of occasions where I'd leave my office and I'm heading down the hill to go for a run and feel myself tightening up.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment, I'll gesture to put my hand on my heart and say to myself, I'm for you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment, it helps shift me out of a place of tightening and contraction and shrinking into a sense of failure, shame, disappointment, and the spiral of thought that can accompany that into a more spacious place of what is possible in this moment.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm disappointed.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like what just happened.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got your back.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm for you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment of that gesture, it connects me to my heart with warmth and kindness.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it creates a bit of breathing space to just be in the moment.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel my body relax into more possibilities of how to move forward in that moment.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So today we're going to explore how that orientation towards ourselves of having our back, why that can be helpful and how it can have a ripple effect on how we relate to other people.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: And explore why that might be useful to you.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this one, this is a bit heady for me.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not how I talk.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would never say before myself.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I might say have my back or what have you.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: However, the principles of this, I can absolutely resonate with, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: When I look into, when I dive a little deeper and see how it manifests, then yeah, that's me.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was me.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, as I shared yesterday, the frustrating part of that was not knowing better at important times in my life where if I had known better, I mean, I wouldn't have put my heart in my hand in my heart at the Olympics and said, oh, geez, I'm for myself.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, Jace.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like that just wasn't going to happen.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: For a couple of reasons.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if I could have understood the principle behind it and the opportunity behind that, I would have been a different person.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as a different person, I would have been a different athlete.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And as a different athlete, I likely would have performed different, better, whatever word you want to put in there.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the frustrating part, is that here I am in my 60s, now understanding what I should have understood in my 20s or my teens.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't somebody explain this to me?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the questions we talked about earlier was how did we even land here?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Who wrote the rule that a whipping stick, that an inner critic, that being harsh on yourself is not only a strategy, but it's the strategy.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the only strategy I knew of growing up as a kid.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious as to, you know, who wrote that chapter and why did it stick the way it did?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have thoughts on that?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of it relates to just that the nature of our nervous system and what happens under stress.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: If we think of, I appreciate Paul Gilbert's model for explaining our inner emotional regulation systems and his work in compassion-focused therapy was designed to help people who are deeply critical of themselves stuck in shame.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we think of where the body goes under stress, and if we think of that emotional regulation model of having an inner drive state that helps us get motivated, achieve things, go after it, we have an inner threat system that wants to protect us and keep us safe.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have a soothing and caring system that helps us connect, rest and repair, digest, care with kindness for ourselves and others.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Under stress and a threat of failure or shame, our mind actually naturally gravitates towards our emotional state.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So our thoughts naturally gravitate towards worry, negativity responses in those states, unless we actively make an intention to do otherwise.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that natural matching system of our thoughts surrendering to our emotional state uh gives a proclivity to move into blame and the inner critic.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's an evolutionary move in that direction.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, the felt experience of I am for you is a conscious choice in a moment of feeling my body going into that threat state and choosing to respond differently and to invite the caring and the soothing system.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when we activate our soothing and caring system, it regulates our physiology and is advantageous to help us be more skillful in moments that are difficult.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the very helpful intervention in a moment of difficulty and overwhelm.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm still kind of stuck on the I sort of want to blame somebody, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, my mind goes to the paramilitary approach to sport that came out of Second World War, Korean War, being it came out of the military, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: That it was a top-down, do it as I say, yada yada.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it sounds like it's a physiological response.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fair enough, but I'd rather blame somebody.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what I find interesting about that, though, is that just the term caring and what?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: What was that one?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Soothing.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So just the notion of soothing and caring was just those two words were so at odds with the sport culture that I grew up in.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And today too.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And not just sport, business, education, politics, you name it, in any culture, the notion of embracing a soothing and caring system to improve performance, you gotta sell that because I don't think that's people's first default.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a great deal of variability with how that's embraced or not in these times.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Within the education system, there's a great deal of movement towards emotional social learning, recognizing the primacy of relationship and psychological emotional safety being foundational for people learning well.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there are pockets of understanding where this is not such another planet idea or element.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: We see a difference in our work in terms of when we first started supporting cultures of healthy high performance rooted in self-awareness and positive relationships.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: The landscape has changed dramatically from when we started a decade ago in how people embrace that work.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So in that you see the shift.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the neuroscience is catching up in spaces.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there's lots of research supporting the strength and understanding that compassion and an orientation of care towards ourselves is a position of strength, not weakness.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about dialing down responsibility, it's upregulating our ability to be accountable.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because when we feel safe and when we have our own back and feel that support internally, then it helps us more freely look at the truth of what happened, how did we land here, and how can we repair what needs repair, take responsibility, move forward.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's a place of possibility.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about dialing down accountability.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: It makes much more room for skillful responses in difficult situations.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it reminds me when you talk about not dialing down accountability.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of that tweet that we saw from a head of school that we started working with a long time ago who tweeted out that back when it was they were called tweets.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they're still called tweets.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Self-care doesn't mean showing up for work half an hour late because you were at your yoga class, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it's funny as hell, but that speaks to what I'm referring to is that it's a conversation where one has to build a case for the soothing and caring system.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that the, you know, the grind, work harder, exhaust yourself, whatever.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not defending that either.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: There obviously needs to be a marriage of the two, but I think where we get stuck in Western culture is we're generally sometimes all in with one or all in with the other.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where the opportunity lies, is to understand, as I didn't, and because nobody told me, a soothing, caring system when you are stressing your body as an elite athlete, as a high performer in any expression of that, is an essential strategy in reaching your potential.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And see, that would have been laughed at in my day because there was so much performative tough guy, the machismo, and there was so much concern about public perception.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's my reputation amongst the team, amongst what have you?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think, again, that was baked into the culture.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in many ways, that resisted what it is that you find so important in this notion of being for ourselves.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, hell, look, you know, when I started doing keynotes 20 plus years ago talking about love, you know, the cell phones came out, the eyes rolled.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: It just didn't go over.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: But now people get it, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: To your point, we have evolved as a society.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're more than ready for those conversations.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You just look at the top podcasts that are out there now and what they're conversing, the top books, what have you, around self-help or personal development.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And these types of themes are commonplace.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Fair?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there's been a big shift.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, huge.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just think, you know, obviously, it's a bit of a drag that it's taken as long as it has.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I trust that, but it just would have been nice to have this more commonplace back in the day, so to speak.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's still a work in progress for most of us in terms of working through the orientation of the inner critic and distinguishing between the usefulness of being able to reflect in thoughtful ways that look at what was good about what happened, what didn't work, what needs to be different going forward.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all kinds of elements that have a ripple effect from the personal of having our own back.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And when we have our own back, it means other people don't have to be focused on taking care of us, reassuring us.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: We're freer to uh focus on other people's humanity and needs because we're not spiraling internally in ways that aren't helpful.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: When I think back to that guy, a younger self, who was not for himself in times of pressure or times of performative failure, losing a race, losing a, you know, something during a training session, what have you.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: When I think back to my default, it wasn't to own the results, even if I wasn't expressing it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was an inner search for something to blame, someone to blame.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lack of accountability in being the tough guy and not embracing the self-care, the self-compassion, not embracing soothing and caring.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: The result of that was an individual that was compromised in getting better because the accountability piece was you know, was almost non-existent.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was don't look bad ever.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it is never your fault.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: You are never wrong.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And my ego was in overdrive, consistently trying to, or constantly trying to write a story to get me to sort of justify moments of failure and to my own disservice, one could argue for sure, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And what you're speaking to, Jace, is consistent with what happens when we're in a shame state.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Shame can provoke a sense of I'm bad and therefore we lose a sense of agency, there's a sense of despair, we can blame others as a way to deflect the experience of shame.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're not engaged in helpful ways with that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there can be a ripple effect.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas when we say we're for ourselves and we have our back, it invites internal safety.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And within that safety, we have a more regulated nervous system.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And with a regulated nervous system, we see things more clearly, we connect with others more effectively, and we're more able to respond in ways that align with our values and who we want to be.
• 16:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I'm grateful for.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, grateful's a strange word, perhaps, but for some of the challenges after, you know, having lost at the Olympics, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: What came out of that was well, through our conversations in my sort of second iteration as a coach was trying to adapt what I had learned from you in and trying to let go of a lot of the dysfunctional strategies that were used when I was an athlete.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, quite often the case, we teach how we're taught, we coach how we were coached, we lead how we were led, we parent how we were parented, unless there's an awareness, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Unless there's a part of us that say, ooh, baby, I'm not sure I like that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to change that narrative when it's my turn to be in a place of power.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So in my first iteration of as a coach, I was that coach.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was the guy who embraced all the dysfunction that I had been taught as an athlete.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: In my second iteration, after I'd met you, and I was sort of open to this notion of a process-centered approach, an athlete-centered approach, not focusing on outcome, not trash talking competitors, competing with, right?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: That whole notion, more of a what one might call a holistic approach to high performance.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's not just sport, it is business, it's any expression of performance, the arts, what have you.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: What I realized was that, you know, as I said earlier, the inability to be accountable because of what I made that mean was a huge impediment to my development.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a coach, I wanted to create an environment that I didn't have as an athlete.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So much of what we did as athletes was built around fear, right?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: The fear of disappointing our coach, the fear of losing, the fear of what have you.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But fear was an underlying motivator.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: When I got into coaching second time, what I wanted to do was make it so that fear wasn't part of the conversation, right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we did, well, we actually had conversations about well, what is losing look like?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: What is failure?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Paint that picture for me.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: What does failure look like?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember talking to other some other coaches about that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, man, I can't believe you even talk about failure.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even let it come into the conversation.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, well, okay, I'm going to try and do this differently, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to demystify the notion of failure so that when the athletes that I was working with, when they go out to race, failure is not at the top of the heap.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Not failing is not at the top of the heap.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: The notion of what's possible, what am I capable of, how much fun could this be?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: All things that were foreign to my verbiage around racing.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I found was by demystifying the notion of failure and having them tell me what failure was and having them come to a place of realizing, wow, you know what?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not as bad as I think it is.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like my parents are still going to love me, and it's still going to be food.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I get to sleep on the house.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, nothing changes.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: What changes is what I make it mean.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so by doing that, the athletes were able to perform more freely, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And be more accountable for those performances.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So whereas in my time, it would have been deny, deflect, blame, accuse, what have you, somebody else.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: With this group of athletes, post-race, if things didn't go well, we could have genuine conversations about what didn't go well and not make it mean anything, and not make it mean you're a loser, you're bad, how you know, like you should feel absolutely ashamed of yourself.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: None of that crap.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was all losing was just information.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was no longer an emotional label of I'm not worthy, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a huge shift in my coaching development.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And no surprise, athletes performed better.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you take away that stick, take away a threat state, and you replace it with love, acceptance, whatever word you want to use, and you've got conditions for a higher level of performance.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Fair?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of freedom in having our self-worth set free from our performance.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love the quote by Brian Stevens.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: He was uh inspiring advocate lawyer who worked with people in death row after coming out of Harvard Law School and has worked tirelessly for decades to reform the criminal justice system.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, We're not the worst thing we've ever done.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good one.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And in sync with my own journey through working as a mediator in restorative justice being able to skillfully address harm that's happened while honoring the dignity and humanity of a person and inviting them to remain in community while they clean up the mess.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And a meaningful process that helps address that and reduces recidivism.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So again, uh it's when people don't repeat offense.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of going back to jail, they Choose a different path.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So and restorative justice initiatives are very effective at reducing repeat offenses.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So self-worth that is liberated from I am what I do.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And again, not to diminish, our actions are important and it votes for the kind of person we want to be.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we do want our actions to be aligned with our values.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when there's space to accept and forgive when we go sideways or backwards or hurt someone, then there's a lot of latitude to grow.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it helps not just our inner life, but how we relate to other people.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that inquiry loop that you talked about earlier just touched on the notion of what you know what's good, what's tricky or what's not working, what do you want to do differently moving forward?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that is such an important tool for establishing accountability within a safe environment, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's no accusatory, there's no shame and blame.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, can you tell me about this in your words?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes me think of when I was teaching.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I taught art and design for 15 years.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so in a high school setting, you're going to have different types of students.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to have students who want to be there and are keen and awesome.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to have students who are taking because they need an easy credit, what they think is an easy credit.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not necessarily disruptive, but they're not there for the same reason as some of the others.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I used to do was use that notion of the inquiry loop.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So here's an example.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I remember this young boy, I'm going to say grade 10.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we'd started a new project, and maybe second, third class in.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: He comes to me with his work and he says, I'm done.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he wants to hand it in.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not done.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he makes the case that, well, according to the rubric, you know, I've got enough here to pass.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all he cared about was just getting enough to pass.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, wow, what a drag.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I mean, it's nowhere near complete.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm guessing you're capable of more here.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't say that to him.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I didn't say anything to him.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I just said, oh, okay.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I said, can I ask you a question?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, can you tell me what you like about it?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think's working?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Went through all the bits that were working.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, which parts aren't working?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like, which parts maybe could use a little bit more work?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And to his credit, he named them because he figured he was done, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: His rubric was met.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's going to start doing homework and other subjects.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so he named them.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, So if you were going to, like if you had time, which you do, what would you work on first?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like what would you try and raise to the same level as the stuff that you like?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he named those.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, I mean, why not?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You've got time.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not due now.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, okay.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And off he went.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Next class, same deal.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Came back, goes, okay, look, now I'm done.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just hand this thing in?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: We went through the same inquiry process.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's good, what's tricky, what's not working, what do you want to change moving forward?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: This time it was an easier sell.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Next class, same thing.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: This time it wasn't, I want to hand it in.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was, I want to know what else I need to work on.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So his inner drive had shifted.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what shifted, it wasn't me that I didn't threaten him to change or to get on board or get his act together.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was an internal process.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: By having him establish his own accountability and his own next steps, he moved into a place of what we refer to as mastery, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: He was experiencing the notion of getting better, which is an innate driver in all of us.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what we're doing.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: We love getting better at stuff.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was happening to him.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the better he got, the better he wanted to get.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So by the end of it, when it was time to hand it in, we had to look at it, what's good, what's tricky.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there was an absolute shift in his energy around the project and how he felt about it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just a pain in the ass that he had to get done.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was something he you could tell he was taking some pride in.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so then, just as he was about to go, I said, Can you imagine if you had handed this in when you wanted to the first time?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he went, Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Look what you would have missed out on.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look where you've taken this project.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he was quiet and reflective, and he was a different kid from that class on, right?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because all I did was invite him to be accountable in a safe environment.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what showed up was the human experience.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: You give humans a safe environment, you pass the accountability over to them, and what comes back is empowerment.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, I will never forget that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: For the rest of the year, it was never I'm done.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Here I'm done, sir, I'm on hands percent.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't happen again.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as leaders, as coaches, as parents, as teachers, educators, business owners, when we adapt that same strategy, when we create environments where there is safe accountability, when somebody's reputation is on the line and in a way that doesn't produce shame.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's self-inflicted, is the wrong term, but it's just ownership.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: They are taking ownership for what they've done, what they want to do, and they do it because they say they will, not because they're told to.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure we can all agree, there's just a different energy when you do something because you say you would, as opposed to you do something because someone told you better.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what's available in this conversation.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, having our own back or being for ourselves isn't a solo game.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: As leaders, as teachers, parents, whatever, we can create that environment.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: We can invite that environment, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, my goodness, when we do, there's a lot that's possible.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: And even asking the question in difficult times, what is our inner space?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a courtroom?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a punishment space?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a space of care?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: What is that internal space?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And by virtue of us having that orientation, we can invite others to that space as well.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: It reminds me of still a very poignant moment when I think of when our daughter was in grade five or six getting a call from a parent where she wasn't happy with how Matea had behaved.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And after I had the call with the parent sitting down at this table and sharing with her what had been relayed to me on the phone, and tears welled down her face, and she started to cry.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Are you ashamed of me?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I was aware even before I spoke of what happened, what a tender space this would be, and felt my own for her in how I conveyed that story, inviting her to explore and my own curiosity what happened there.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it was such a beautiful moment because I know that she felt held and safe to explore what happened there, even though it was difficult for her.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the beauty of that moment to feel her sense of being met, and that I was for her in that difficult space, and how it opened up her exploration of what happened, why it happened, what her needs were, what her friends' needs were, how they were gonna move forward with it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it just felt so right in the heart and so powerful in our relationship, right?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and liberating for her to own what was possible, even though it was a painful moment.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I still go to that because it was such a felt expression of that being for her.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And because I knew the power of it in my own life and how that freed me up to explore in a useful, practical, helpful way how to move forward in a difficult situation.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was so grateful to be able to share that with her.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, way to go, mom.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh I mean you retell that story as a train wreck, and you've got a moment that that child is not ever going to forget.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, as you like to say in our well, don't like to say, but isn't shame the number one reason why people suicide?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's it's shame is so difficult to tolerate for us.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so having the capacity to be skillful in holding ourselves and connecting with others when we experience shame or failure or deep disappointment or in grief is an important part of living well.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just, you know, I think back to my moments of shame, of recollection, and they are easy peasy in terms of transporting myself back to those moments.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, soul would probably be the biggest.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not in the race per se, but I think in the week after, getting home from Seoul, inner clock, all screwed up, dropped off.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, it was probably midnight at home in St.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Catharines, Ontario.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And mom and dad were there.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't know what to say.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't talk about anything.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: They just said we're gonna go back to bed.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad said, before he went up, he said, you know, there's a bunch of newspaper clippings on the living room couch if you want to have a look.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like I said, my clock was messed up, I wasn't tired.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I went in there and started flipping through the newspaper clippings, and I came to the front page of the Globe and Mail, which is Canada's national newspaper, the sports section, and there's a photograph of us moments after crossing the finish line, and we're all slumped over our oars, and like it's a powerful photograph.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can tell this didn't end well.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the headline said Canadians bomb out in Seoul.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the article, written by Jim Proudfoot, who clearly wasn't having a good day, laid blame.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And for the first time in my life, my name was in the Globe and Mail, but not in the way I'd hoped.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Not in a celebratory way.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I can still feel my chest tighten just in sharing the story.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like a truck came through the living room window and was sort of charging towards me.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just the rush of adrenaline that went through my body when I read that article and realized, holy crap, like this is a big frickin' deal.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't just lose for us, we lost for the entire country.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And people are pissed off.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking that yeah, that we had really screwed up.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the shame that I felt was palpable, you know, heart racing, sweating, just not knowing what to do with that.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so my natural default was, well, why is my name in there?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, surely it was so and you know, it was looking for an excuse.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: There was no ownership in that moment.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, I mean, sure, we did bomb out, but I wasn't about to concede that.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so it, yeah, it was just a moment of pure shame.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so having experienced that, I think has informed me of wow, do I ever want to create that inner feeling for another human being?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's gross and it's not going anywhere, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that moment is deep inside my, I don't know what you'd call it, but it's in there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll go to my grave for sure.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've processed it and all that kind of stuff, but oh baby, can I remember that moment in a heartbeat?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can picture everything.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that is another opportunity here in that when we are for ourselves and when we have people around us who are encouraging us to be that way and have our backs, we diminish the possibility of those moments.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: We allow for accountability.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like people get let off the hook, right?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like we didn't lose.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, hey, don't worry about it.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just yeah, no big deal.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was a missed opportunity of reflection and taking the loss as information as opposed to the meaning-making that went on, right?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for all of us, when we can be for ourselves, and for me to clarify, I don't perceive being for ourselves as being cocky and having swagger and you know, the way that you would normally hear on a bunch of sports pundits describe.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see it as that at all.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I see it as a quiet knowing that regardless of what happens, I'm not going to leave you.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna ride this out with you.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if I had had that, it just would have been a whole different gig.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm sure for many of the listeners, same.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, every person listening can reflect on that moment or a moment that was hyper shame, don't know if that's a word, and reflect on that and go and probably come to the conclusion that in that moment they weren't for themselves.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if they had been, it likely would have had less of an impact.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if we think of the physiological state of shame, shame, we all experience shame.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of our common humanity.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that it we're going to extinguish that experience from our lives.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that when it arises within us, when we can meet it with a willingness, with warmth and kindness for ourselves, with an intent to explore the meaning in a way that nourishes us rather than beats us up, then it's easier to stay with our body because shame can take us out of our bodies as a way to protect ourselves.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: But when we can be present with our grief, with the emotions that are there, then we can more skillfully respond.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we can look to the future of, okay, this didn't go down the way I want to, and what's possible moving forward.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives us the courage and the capacity to be with the fear as well, and that there's a deeper level of our ability to be with difficult experiences that can move us forward and grow through the experience.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to me, that's the piece here, right?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is what's possible.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the invitation here is our subtitle talks about creating what's possible.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we are in a state void of shame, a lot more is possible.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: When we aren't overcome with shame, when there isn't a threat of shame, there's a lot more that's possible.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And given that we all experience shame when we're in a moment of shame, when we can say, I'm having a difficult experience of shame.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone experiences this in our lifetime, a willingness to, again, uh compassion practices.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Can I be for myself?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Can I be kind?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Can I be with this in this moment?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as they say, you know, self-compassion is the antidote to shame, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it is perhaps the quickest way to turn it down and to turn it off, even that when that's the case.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it brings up that notion, you talk about the inner critic, if that expression of, you know, if I talk to my friends the way I talk to myself, I wouldn't have any friends.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's an important reflection for people to really catch themselves, as we both like to say, the first step in all of this is awareness.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Being aware of when we're having those, that inner dialogue that is absolutely not going to end well and serve us.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And having that reflection of, who, baby, you know, if I did talk to my friends, my family, whoever, the way I allow my critic to talk about me, there's just no way on earth.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing as a leader or business owner or a parent, would I want somebody talking to me the way, like, would I let a stranger or someone else talk to me the way I let me talk to me?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we do it all the time.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Guilty.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think when you can catch yourself, you know, that's the first step, right?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is just noticing, oh man, this is take it easy.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're getting a little heated here.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this podcast is a perfect example of that for me personally.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: The whole notion of two introts putting a podcast out for the world to critique is frickin' scary for me, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: My hands are sweating just thinking about the fact that people might be listening to this and judging.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got two choices in that moment.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can be panicked and feel the threat of that critique and that judgment, or as you say, I can be for myself, I can have my own back and allow myself to keep moving forward and trust that am I gonna say something stupid once in a while?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of my DNA.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just it's how I roll sometimes.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if I don't make it mean anything, I get over it, I come back to the next show, and giddy up.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we do it again.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the power of being for yourself is that you are able to take those next steps far more easily than when the critic is just, you know, has got the chair and the whip and they are in control.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it speaks to the power of intention, having an intention to be for ourselves, to have our own back, and to be for others as well, because our inner relating ripples out in our relationships.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we feel the shift within ourselves, it invites us to show up that way for others.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we think about questions for the audience to reflect on, what does having your own back mean when you know you've made a mistake?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: How is that question alive in you as we talk about this?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: First one again.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: What was the first one again?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: What does having your own back mean when you know you've made a mistake?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: So inviting our audience to reflect on that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: So to sort of paint a picture, right?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like a scenario.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: And what is this what would actually transpire?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, good one.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: And again, how do we distinguish self-compassion from self-excusing?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Understanding the difference that it's not about letting ourselves off the hook, it's about dialing up accountability because it's safer to do so.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what did each of us learn about failure, shame, and being worthy of care when we mess up?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Game changers.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Big time.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think of all the stuff, well, I mean, goodness, there's a lot of stuff we're gonna get to, but shame is uh it's a big ticket item, right?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just so much to be learned and garnered from that.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you liked the episode, liked our conversation, you can like it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can subscribe, you can share, you can tell your friends, make a comment, and we'll look forward to seeing you again in our third episode.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Look forward to next time.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Bye everyone.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it for today's episode of Imagine the Good.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show.
• 44:27
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• 44:43
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• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And join us on the next episode.