Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #764 Should We Stop Our Boys Playing Rough?

Transcript

#764 Should We Stop Our Boys Playing Rough? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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Speaker 2: Now, as I read this email, my first thing for
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Speaker 2: this mom is let this little boy be rough and tumble,
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Speaker 2: let him play rough tag games, get him involved in
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Speaker 2: soccer or footy, but not in a formalized way.
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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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Speaker 1: and dad Kylie.
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Speaker 2: Most tuesdays we do our best to answer listen to questions.
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Speaker 2: Today is no different. We're going to do that. Let's
0:32
Speaker 2: dive into it. I'm going to get you to read
0:34
Speaker 2: today's question, which comes from a Happy Family's member who says.
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Speaker 3: Well, this is going to be fun. I don't have
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Speaker 3: my glasses on today. Holy smokes. All right, I've been
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Speaker 3: listening to your podcast for a few years now and
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Speaker 3: love it. Thank you for making me a better parent.
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Speaker 3: I need some tips to help my six year old
0:52
Speaker 3: son to make better decisions in the playground at school.
0:55
Speaker 3: He's hanging around a few boys that like to play
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Speaker 3: rough tag games. We've talked to him a lot about
1:01
Speaker 3: what makes a good friend, being kind, our family values,
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Speaker 3: but honestly, I feel nothing is making a significant difference.
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Speaker 3: I have emailed as teacher to discuss a plan on
1:10
Speaker 3: how we can work together so all the children can
1:13
Speaker 3: make better choices and treat each other more respectfully. To
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Speaker 3: be honest, I would prefer if he didn't hang out
1:18
Speaker 3: with these kids, but he likes running around. He's got
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Speaker 3: a lot of energy and he will always encounter these
1:23
Speaker 3: kinds of kids throughout his whole schooling. We've also encouraged
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Speaker 3: playing football, soccer, etc. Instead, but he hasn't found a
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Speaker 3: sport he likes at this stage. Last term he tried
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Speaker 3: focusing on one task egs stepping back when things are
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Speaker 3: getting rough, no pushing, but as you are well aware,
1:40
Speaker 3: when things get out of control, high emotions, low intelligence.
1:44
Speaker 3: She said, sorry, it's a long one.
1:46
Speaker 2: Well, I love these emails and the opportunity that we
1:48
Speaker 2: have to make a difference. I'm perplexed by a couple
1:50
Speaker 2: of things in this one, so I'm going to step
1:52
Speaker 2: through a couple of ideas and obviously we'll go backwards
1:56
Speaker 2: some fords with some help from this mum. First thing
1:58
Speaker 2: that you didn't mention is that she's been listening to
2:01
Speaker 2: all of our resources and books slowly, and I just
2:04
Speaker 2: wanted to highlight that you can listen to it on
2:06
Speaker 2: one and a half speed, you can get throw it
2:07
Speaker 2: away faster. I'm just putting it out there. I listen
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Speaker 2: to everything I want to point five.
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Speaker 3: You've been listening to things on one point three quarters.
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Speaker 3: How do you say that.
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Speaker 2: One point seven five?
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Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't have one point seven five mind sets
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Speaker 3: one and three quarters.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, one point seventy five. Yeah, But I listened to
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Speaker 2: the really important stuff and some even seeing you on two,
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Speaker 2: that's right. And when I listen to our podcast on
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Speaker 2: normal speed, which I very infrequently do, but every now
2:36
Speaker 2: and again, how slow is it? I think to myself,
2:39
Speaker 2: I wonder if I really speak that slow down.
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Speaker 3: Good?
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Speaker 2: Because when I listen to our podcast, I usually listen
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Speaker 2: to it on one point five. So if you're doing that,
2:49
Speaker 2: we don't mind. Don't mind all So for this, for
2:52
Speaker 2: this Happy Families member and listener, please it's okay. You
2:55
Speaker 2: don't have to listen to them slowly. Okay, let's talk
2:57
Speaker 2: about something serious here now. I'm eating this just on
3:01
Speaker 2: face value initially, and I love the care and concern
3:04
Speaker 2: that this mum has shared. But what I'm really concerned
3:07
Speaker 2: about is that there is a feminization of our society.
3:11
Speaker 2: Over time. There's been a lot of noise made over
3:13
Speaker 2: the last little while about toxic masculinity, which I have
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Speaker 2: massive problems with, massive problems. The idea that half the
3:20
Speaker 2: population on the planet could be considered toxic is just
3:24
Speaker 2: so diabolically offensive to me. It's so appalling. There are
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Speaker 2: obviously some people who have some issues that we need
3:30
Speaker 2: to work with, and plenty of toxic beliefs, but that
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Speaker 2: doesn't make half of the population toxic. So I found
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Speaker 2: this article. It's by a guy who's sometimes fairly provocative.
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Speaker 2: His name's David French, and he just made one really
3:42
Speaker 2: important point. He said, our society is unlearning masculinity. It's
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Speaker 2: feminizing every stage of male life, and boys are paying
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Speaker 2: a steep price.
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was in my late teens,
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Speaker 3: it was all about the snag, right.
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Speaker 2: Sensitive new age guy. Yeah that I so badly wanted
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Speaker 2: to be a snag. And I don't know why. I mean,
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Speaker 2: come on.
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Speaker 3: Because girls wanted a snag. Girls wanted a male they
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Speaker 3: could talk to.
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Speaker 2: And this is the interesting thing. Now there's there's tremendous
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Speaker 2: overlap between males and females, but only at the extremes
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Speaker 2: extreme loves and the extreme highs. We know that boys
4:18
Speaker 2: and girls are different.
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Speaker 1: Now.
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Speaker 2: There are some authors like Lisa Elliott and Cordelia Fine
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Speaker 2: who have written books like the Delusions of Gender and
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Speaker 2: Pink Brain, Blue Brain, and there's been some more recent
4:28
Speaker 2: ones come out as well that I found compelling and fascinating,
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Speaker 2: but ultimately not consistently. What the very best and most
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Speaker 2: responsible research shows, and what that research shows is this
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Speaker 2: boys compared to girls, they use their bodies differently, they
4:43
Speaker 2: act differently, and it's not just socialization. There's this hormone.
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Speaker 2: I don't know how many endochronologists are out there, but
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Speaker 2: the hormone testosterone dominates and divides the way we live
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Speaker 2: our lives, both for males and females. And I think
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Speaker 2: the easiest example of this when you go down to
5:01
Speaker 2: the beach, as I mean, we live fairly close to
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Speaker 2: the beach now, which is just such a treat, and
5:05
Speaker 2: when you go down to the beach on a hot day,
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Speaker 2: you see a whole lot of I don't know, teenagers
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Speaker 2: and young adults and families down on the beach, and
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Speaker 2: invariably you see the females of our species laying on
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Speaker 2: the sand looking at their phones, reading a book, sun baking,
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Speaker 2: maybe going for a gentle swim. They'll go down to
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Speaker 2: the waves, they'll wade into the water, they'll go through
5:26
Speaker 2: a little swim, and then they'll come back to the
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Speaker 2: tow Now again I'm being really reductionist and stereotypical, but
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Speaker 2: I watched this happen every single day, and it's rare
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Speaker 2: that I see an exception. But when you see the boys, Kylie.
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Speaker 3: They jump through those waves, they tackle each other before
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Speaker 3: they've even made it. That's knee deep like you.
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Speaker 2: And they're on the sand throwing balls around or playing cricket,
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Speaker 2: or wrestling with each other and trying to pin each
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Speaker 2: other on the sand, flicking each other with towels, and
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Speaker 2: the girls are like, would you stop it? Would you
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Speaker 2: just sit down? Would you calm down? And it's the
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Speaker 2: same in the school, in the classroom, it's the same
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Speaker 2: across the board. And I think, while I find David
6:01
Speaker 2: French sometimes far too provocative and over the top, this
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Speaker 2: idea that we are making masculinity problematic, I think there's
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Speaker 2: a lot of evidence for it if you look for it.
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Speaker 3: I know that Maggie Dan has been, you know, very
6:17
Speaker 3: very vocal in I guess being a champion for boys
6:20
Speaker 3: in the in the classroom.
6:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and letting them riggle and move and exercise during
6:25
Speaker 2: the day and use their bodies.
6:27
Speaker 3: I think about the schooling experience I had as a
6:33
Speaker 3: young child. We were allowed to climb trees, like I'm
6:36
Speaker 3: talking like massive pine trees that would be considered two
6:40
Speaker 3: or three stories high. We had this amazing tree down
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Speaker 3: the back of the school, and it was right down
6:46
Speaker 3: the back of the school, and to get there you
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Speaker 3: actually had to go down this massive, like massive ditch,
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Speaker 3: like it was huge, and we were to roll down
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Speaker 3: that hill at full speed, go on over bumps and
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Speaker 3: all kinds of things to get to the bottom. And
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Speaker 3: then we'd spend our lunch break climbing this tree. Because
7:04
Speaker 3: we had been.
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Speaker 2: Girls, those sounds like girls and boys were doing this.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. We had Each branch was a different bedroom with
7:11
Speaker 3: a house.
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Speaker 2: Which I love that you've said that as well, because
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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that girls don't do these things. There's
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Speaker 2: plenty of evidence that lots and lots of girls like to,
7:18
Speaker 2: but on average, there is there is such a strong
7:22
Speaker 2: research evidence base to highlight there is a difference between
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Speaker 2: the way boys and girls are going to like boys
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Speaker 2: just bump into things, bump into each other. They use
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Speaker 2: their bodies more. And that's the central thing that I
7:31
Speaker 2: wanted to highlight and response to this email. We've got
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Speaker 2: a mum who's saying, my little guy, he's really active.
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Speaker 2: He's playing rough tag games, and I don't like it
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Speaker 2: because we've got these values about being kind and being
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Speaker 2: a good friend, these family values, and I feel like
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Speaker 2: when he's playing these rough tag games, he's hanging around
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Speaker 2: with kids that they see the world differently, and that's
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Speaker 2: not how I want him to be.
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Speaker 3: Well, I guess that's kind of I was going with.
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Speaker 3: My story is just this acknowledgment that what do our
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Speaker 3: boys have these days in the playground. They've taken away
8:07
Speaker 3: the ability to climb trees. How many times have our
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Speaker 3: kids come home and said their band handball? I know,
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Speaker 3: like every time boys and girls, but specifically our boys,
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Speaker 3: who need to be using their body so much more,
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Speaker 3: find some kind of avenue to get all of those
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Speaker 3: wriggles out. Inevitably, school's ban it.
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Speaker 2: As I read this email, my first thing for this
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Speaker 2: mum is let this little boy be rough and tumble,
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Speaker 2: Let him play rough tag games. Get him involved in
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Speaker 2: soccer or footy or rock climbing. But he's only seen
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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because as I was
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Speaker 2: saying it, I was like, hey, I said, well, let's
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Speaker 2: wind this back. I just remembered he's he's only six.
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Speaker 2: So there's a couple of other things to highlight here
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Speaker 2: from a developmental point of view, things like impulse control,
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Speaker 2: behavior regulation, emotion regulation. He's only six, so our expectations
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Speaker 2: shouldn't be that high. We certainly want him to be respectful,
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Speaker 2: but he's going to need lots of reminders and lots
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Speaker 2: of coaching and lots of training because he won't be
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Speaker 2: inhibiting particularly well our job. Like you think about it,
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Speaker 2: six years old, how long does it take a kid
9:13
Speaker 2: to learn to write their name? Or the time I was.
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Speaker 3: Actually thinking more about an adult who, at twenty one
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Speaker 3: kept leaving his socks underneath the dining room table every
9:24
Speaker 3: night when we had dinner.
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Speaker 2: You're talking about me, maybe.
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Speaker 3: And it took you probably maybe four or five years
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Speaker 3: to stop doing that.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So in my defense, now this is weird. But
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Speaker 2: when I sit at the dining table and I'm eating
9:38
Speaker 2: and I've got my shoes and socks on my feet
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Speaker 2: get really hot as I take my shoes and socks
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Speaker 2: off under the table.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, but then how come it took you five years
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Speaker 3: to learn to pick them up and put them away?
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Speaker 2: Well, because I needed to be reminded. And I know
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Speaker 2: we're going here because we've got a six year old
9:50
Speaker 2: who's having a hard time always being respectful and who
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Speaker 2: is sometimes perhaps using his body in ways that parents
9:55
Speaker 2: aren't okay with. And if it takes a grown man
9:59
Speaker 2: like me that long tie and how to pick up
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Speaker 2: my socks from undernath the dining table because my feet
10:02
Speaker 2: get hot while I'm eating my meal, which I know
10:03
Speaker 2: sounds really weird, and people are probably wondering what we're
10:06
Speaker 2: just closing this. It's going to take a long time
10:08
Speaker 2: for a six year old to figure this stuff out.
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Speaker 3: I know that as a parent it is just exhausting,
10:19
Speaker 3: it really is it really to be going through the
10:21
Speaker 3: same thing with our children. But the reality is every
10:25
Speaker 3: time we have an opportunity to build on previous experience,
10:32
Speaker 3: we're helping them learn and grow.
10:33
Speaker 2: And it's that metaphor of play by play. When you're
10:35
Speaker 2: on the sporting field, you don't try to score on
10:37
Speaker 2: every play, you just keep on trying to move the
10:39
Speaker 2: ball down the field, move the ball down the court,
10:41
Speaker 2: move the ball in the direction where you've got to.
10:43
Speaker 2: That's where you eventually score. And you don't have to
10:46
Speaker 2: do it on every single play. You don't have to
10:48
Speaker 2: try to score. What you do is you just you
10:50
Speaker 2: complete your sets of six, or you complete your passes,
10:54
Speaker 2: you wind down the shop clock, whatever game you're playing,
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Speaker 2: you move the ball towards the place that you score
11:00
Speaker 2: by bit by bit. And with a six year old,
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Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're trying to do.
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Speaker 3: I remember having a conversation with one of my friends
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Speaker 3: and she just said that when she is kind of
11:08
Speaker 3: helping her children navigate her friendships and play situations, one
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Speaker 3: of the things that she emphasizes is how is everybody
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Speaker 3: in the group enjoying the experience?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: Beautiful?
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Speaker 3: You know, kind of taking the perspective of the other
11:25
Speaker 3: people because in those moments, I'm having lots of fun.
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Speaker 3: But if my friend starts crying because I've bashed into
11:31
Speaker 3: it them, but even by accident, then how is that
11:35
Speaker 3: person feeling? And is this game actually a good game
11:38
Speaker 3: to be playing right now?
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Speaker 2: And that's a really powerful way to build empathy, even
11:41
Speaker 2: in a six year old, because it teaches them to
11:44
Speaker 2: be not just self aware, but socially aware, and that's
11:47
Speaker 2: the one thing that six year olds really lack. Now,
11:50
Speaker 2: this will be something that they will develop as they mature.
11:53
Speaker 2: It's part of the growing up process. And somewhere around
11:56
Speaker 2: about the age of let's say seven, eight nine, when
12:00
Speaker 2: we're in there, they'll usually start to get a handle
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Speaker 2: on it. But we also see in de climb massively,
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Speaker 2: especially in boys, from about the age of twelve or thirteen,
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Speaker 2: empathy drops. It's around about the same time that testosterone
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Speaker 2: kicks up to the point where it's twenty or thirty
12:14
Speaker 2: times more than what a girl has in her system.
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Speaker 2: I mean, it's an enormous change for the boy as
12:21
Speaker 2: he moves into puberty. There are two other things that
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Speaker 2: I think we need to talk about here that have
12:26
Speaker 2: come out of this email, and we'll do it fairly briefly.
12:29
Speaker 2: The first one is where Mum says.
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Speaker 3: She'd prefer that he didn't play with those kids.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, my son's always going to encounter these sorts
12:39
Speaker 2: of children throughout his schooling, but I prefer that he
12:41
Speaker 2: wasn't hanging out with these kids. One of my friends
12:45
Speaker 2: a guy that I'm hoping to one day write a
12:46
Speaker 2: book with, Christopher Niemick. He's at the University of Rochester
12:50
Speaker 2: in upstate New York, and he did a fascinating research
12:55
Speaker 2: project a few years ago with a couple of his
12:56
Speaker 2: colleagues out of Belgium, Martin Vanstein, Kista and but And
13:01
Speaker 2: they looked at the forbidden fruit of forbidden friendships. And
13:05
Speaker 2: what they basically found was that the more the parents said, hey,
13:07
Speaker 2: don't play with those kids over there, guess what the
13:09
Speaker 2: kids were like, Actually, I'm going to And the more
13:12
Speaker 2: the parents just said, what makes a good friend, how's
13:14
Speaker 2: everyone enjoying the experience, what's it like when you're with them,
13:16
Speaker 2: what's it like when other people are with them? The
13:18
Speaker 2: more parents just I guess, supported their autonomy, but also
13:20
Speaker 2: built some empathy there as they tried to see things
13:23
Speaker 2: through their kids' eyes, but help their kids to see
13:25
Speaker 2: things through the eyes of others, build that social awareness.
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Speaker 2: They found that kids made more pro social friendship choices.
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Speaker 3: So we've experienced that in our home. You know, there
13:34
Speaker 3: have been many times we've been concerned about the kinds
13:37
Speaker 3: of friendships that our children were making. But even just recently,
13:42
Speaker 3: you know, we had an opportunity to have some kids
13:45
Speaker 3: in our house and I just felt like these were
13:48
Speaker 3: not the kind of kids I wanted my children hanging around.
13:51
Speaker 3: But we've never told our kids they can't. We've always
13:56
Speaker 3: tried to give them autonomy around their friendships. We've had
13:59
Speaker 3: open discussions and we've shared our concerns at different times,
14:03
Speaker 3: but we've always tried to allow them to have that choice.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really about, hey, what did you notice. Here's
14:09
Speaker 2: what we're noticing. Have you picked up on that as well?
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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts around that? How's everyone feeling about this?
14:15
Speaker 2: What do you think we should do?
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Speaker 3: Yeah? And it was interesting because after that experience, I
14:19
Speaker 3: sat down with our daughter and talked to her about
14:22
Speaker 3: what I had noticed and asked her if she'd noticed
14:25
Speaker 3: any of the same things. We really weren't on the
14:28
Speaker 3: same page. She was very pro her friends and felt
14:31
Speaker 3: like everything was fine. So I left it and just
14:33
Speaker 3: allowed her to continue those friendships. And over the next
14:36
Speaker 3: few months, just little things started peeking her curiosity, and
14:42
Speaker 3: within that few months she came to me one day
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Speaker 3: and she just said, you know, Mum, I have decided
14:49
Speaker 3: that I really don't want to be around these people anymore.
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Speaker 3: They don't make me feel good. I had been watching it,
14:54
Speaker 3: literally watching it, but.
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Speaker 2: It didn't happen. After that first conversation.
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Speaker 3: SHO she needs did time, but she also needed the
15:02
Speaker 3: rose colored glasses to be taken off so that she
15:06
Speaker 3: could see what was right there. And we've had lots
15:10
Speaker 3: of opportunities over the years to have those conversations. But
15:13
Speaker 3: I think it's important that kids have the autonomy to
15:16
Speaker 3: make friends.
15:16
Speaker 2: So the last thing that I want to highlight from
15:18
Speaker 2: this email is just that we've got a mum here
15:22
Speaker 2: who's saying we're encouraging our son to play football and soccer,
15:25
Speaker 2: but he hasn't found a sport that he likes at
15:27
Speaker 2: this stage. And obviously that ties in a lot with
15:30
Speaker 2: the whole let's get the kids active. But for me,
15:33
Speaker 2: right now, it's about unstructured play. It's about building social
15:36
Speaker 2: relationships and friendships, getting down to the park, down to
15:39
Speaker 2: the beach, riding bikes, playing ball sports, but not in
15:43
Speaker 2: a formalized way. When I look at all of the
15:46
Speaker 2: very best research around this, I don't see any advantage
15:49
Speaker 2: at all to getting kids involved in organized sport at
15:53
Speaker 2: the age of six. I just think it's too young.
15:55
Speaker 2: It puts too much pressure on them. It brings a
15:57
Speaker 2: competitive element in before they've developed competence. And if you
16:01
Speaker 2: don't have the competence and capability and now you've got
16:03
Speaker 2: to score and you've got to beat the other people
16:05
Speaker 2: and you're trying to get the participation trophy or the
16:07
Speaker 2: end of the year grand final, it just it's not
16:10
Speaker 2: quite right. That's not what we want to be doing.
16:13
Speaker 2: So I would be saying this, Mum, continue to build relationships.
16:16
Speaker 2: Watch the kids when they play in the backyard or
16:18
Speaker 2: down at the park. Watch what's happening when you take
16:21
Speaker 2: them down to the local play center and they're doing
16:24
Speaker 2: something in an unstructured way there, because those are the
16:27
Speaker 2: activities where you're going to really see what's going on
16:30
Speaker 2: and you'll have those teaching opportunities. In short, we've got
16:34
Speaker 2: a little boy who wants to play, wants to be active,
16:37
Speaker 2: wants to be involved, and he's kind of like our
16:40
Speaker 2: puppy Kylie, just doesn't know how to hold himself back
16:45
Speaker 2: just yet. Our puppy. She sees the open gate and
16:49
Speaker 2: she runs for it. She's like, free them, let me
16:51
Speaker 2: add it. And a few times she's escaped and things
16:53
Speaker 2: have gotten out of hand, we had to chase it
16:55
Speaker 2: down the road and bring it back. It's a bit
16:56
Speaker 2: like that with a little boy age six or seven,
16:59
Speaker 2: limb regulation limited in an ambition, just wants to use
17:03
Speaker 2: his body and be rough and tumble and be into everything,
17:06
Speaker 2: and every now and again things go a little bit
17:09
Speaker 2: too far, and as parents we've got to chase him
17:11
Speaker 2: down the road, pick them up, bring him back home,
17:12
Speaker 2: and have another conversation with them and help them to
17:15
Speaker 2: bit by bit work it all out. So we hope
17:19
Speaker 2: that well definitely food for thought, not the usual soft
17:22
Speaker 2: and cut kind of advice that we give in one
17:25
Speaker 2: of these conversations, but I think that as a good
17:27
Speaker 2: reminder for parents of boys that they do need to
17:30
Speaker 2: have these opportunities to be a little bit more what's
17:34
Speaker 2: the word exuberant? I love it. The Happy Family podcast
17:38
Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce
17:41
Speaker 2: is our executive producer, and if you'd like more info
17:44
Speaker 2: about making your family happy, we would love for you
17:46
Speaker 2: to visit us at Happy families dot com dot au. Oh.
17:50
Speaker 2: Also a quick reminder next Monday Night, Big webinar. Can't
17:55
Speaker 2: wait to share it with you. The Parenting Revolution all
17:57
Speaker 2: about my brand new book. We've got the webinar of
17:59
Speaker 2: the same name. It's like The Parenting Revolution, the book,
18:02
Speaker 2: the webinar. That's like High School Musical, the musical, the
18:04
Speaker 2: series but never mind, that's happening next Monday night. If
18:08
Speaker 2: you haven't grabbed your tickets, well well, if you're already
18:10
Speaker 2: a Happy Family's member, it's already included in your membership.
18:12
Speaker 2: If you're not a member, become one, or alternatively, grab
18:15
Speaker 2: your ticket for the webinar wherever you would normally find
18:19
Speaker 2: its Happy Families dot com, dot you, or on our
18:20
Speaker 2: Facebook page, Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families