Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 361: Tales of the Empire

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Issue 361: Tales of the Empire · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the note polty. Hi. This is Nick and Astasu, story
0:09
editor on Star Wars, The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and
0:15
you are listening to aggressive negotiations. That's right, Hello and welcome. I
0:36
am one of your hosts, Jedi Master John Mills, and I'm pleased as
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ever to have wait, hold on a second, Matt, Where am I
0:46
right now? I've lost track? Am I underground negotiations or am at the
0:50
six or two club? Which place? I don't know, because for the
0:54
last two weeks we've just kind of melded the two. It's like you've had
0:57
some sort of like Jedi tranced Vulcan mind mild of the show. So this
1:03
is like us being like Ray and Ben, but like you know, we're
1:07
like we're like touching through the rain right now, and this is the show's
1:11
coming, and that reference, that's what we're doing. I'm going to walk
1:15
away from that reference before somebody listening comes in like Luke and close this whole
1:21
place apart. So there you go. Wow, John, I feel like
1:25
we've got to keep him separated here. Oh all right, he guess what
1:29
we're talking about the offspring of Han and Lea and pal and that's right and
1:36
not Palpatine. So there you go, the offspring reference. It all comes
1:40
together. That was artfully done, Matt, well done. I thank you,
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thank you. Well. We are going to have a blast as we
1:45
cross over again, because what we had some Star Wars stuff that was ending
1:49
and starting and then ended, and so of course we talked about the Bad
1:56
Batch season three together and that crossover and when that was a ton of and
2:00
we thought, well, why not just do it again? Because we've got
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Tales of the Empire, which dropped on May the fourth, and we've both
2:08
had an opportunity to watch it, I think at least twice, and so
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I just wanted to ask you, John, you know, we both really
2:20
liked Tails of the Jedi. Oh yes, and we're really excited about the
2:24
idea of them doing a second season of that. And so when it came
2:31
out that we weren't actually getting a second season of that, was there a
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part of you that was disappointed? Or are you just more excited to see
2:40
what they had in store? Listen, I'll say we're not getting a second
2:44
season of that yet. Okay. Hope Hope Springs Eternal, keep Hope alive.
2:52
Yeah, I mean, I'm excited for anything in this format that Tails
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of the Jedi and Tails the Empire have been in specifically because I think that
2:59
short forms storytelling is the way of the future, has been for some time,
3:05
and you know, it's just what audiences are used to, and it
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feels like an appropriate extension of what Lucas himself was going with all the way
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back to those gender Tartakowski three minute episodes of you. It forces the storyteller
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to distill everything to the most brutally efficient necessary elements to tell the story.
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So, whether you have a story to tell in three hours or three minutes,
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can you tell that story? And I think it's a fascinating challenge.
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And so yeah, anytime I see Star Wars come in here, it feels
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natural. It feels like this is what Star Wars should be doing with formats,
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is busting them up, doing something you know, fun and original.
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Although at the same time it's a callback to like the shorter cartoon series that
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were in the past, where they're like fifteen minutes long, and you know,
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stuff that I watched for a number of years on Cartoon Network, on
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Adult Swim, you know, Sea Lab twenty twenty one, Aquatine, Hunger
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Force, Space Ghost, Coast to Coast. Those were all comedy shows and
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they were all done in fifteen minute blocks, Metal Acalypse, all of that
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type of stuff. I love this short form format because it forces you just
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to be really focused in what you're telling. So sorry for the rambly answer,
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but yeah, short short TLDR. Yes, I was excited to get
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this. Yeah, I mean I wasn't frustrated that they were doing you know,
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Tales of the Empire. I think I had thought, of course,
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that they were going to do a second season of Tales of the Jedi,
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and like you, I have hoped that that will happen because to me,
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it was one of the most incredible things that they had done in animation.
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In all honesty, I just loved it, and I would really like to
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see more of those type of stories because I do think there are plenty of
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places that the Star Wars Galaxy, especially in the prequel era, has places
5:02
to fill in stories like that. But the fact that we were going to
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do this that and that idea with you know, Tales of the Empire was
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exciting to me because there's plenty of places that you can do that with with
5:16
stories like we got and so we're get too arcs right in this we we
5:25
get the Morgan Elsbeth arc uh and then we get the Bears Offie arc.
5:30
And I really liked because I I didn't watch any trailers. I only saw
5:44
the poster for this, and I didn't quite realize because I really wasn't looking
5:49
at the poster really diligently that this was Morgan Elsbeth in the first place.
5:55
Really, and so, but how did did you feel just about them kind
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of digging in a little bit more to her story to put a little bit
6:04
more meat on the bones for this character. Oh, I loved it Morgan
6:11
Elsbeth ever since we first encountered her in the Mandalorian like fascinated me because here's
6:16
somebody who's super capable, non Jedi, wonderful fighter. And then when she
6:24
came back in Ahsoka, I was like, Okay, cool, great antagonist.
6:30
And if she is in fact dead in Ahsoka, so you know,
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never going to count anybody out in fantasy and sci fi, right, anybody
6:36
can come back. But if she is in fact dead, then the only
6:41
place you only room you have left to tell her story is in flashbacks.
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Basically, you know, prequel stories, and so I actually appreciated getting a
6:49
nice full arc with her, not the least of which because my curiosity always
6:56
was how did this person get connected to Throng And so of course you know,
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this scratches that specific is itch, but you know, were you happy
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to get back with miss Elsbeth or yeah, I think you know. To
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me, one of the exciting parts about having her as the character that we
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were going to be discussing in this this arc was the fact that, you
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know, we knew that she was dath Mary, and so kind of how
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she survives and how she finds her way into the service thron Is is kind
7:39
of a big story, right because we thought, really that Ventris was the
7:45
last one, right that, or at least is what we knew we you
7:49
know, we thought their whole planet had been destroyed. And so not only
7:55
do we say that Morgan Elsbeth has survived, but there's a Mountain Lan as
8:00
well of daf Mary women who aren't daf Mary witches, which is very interesting.
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And so I loved the fact that what we're doing in this is we're
8:13
expanding a lot like the Expanded Universe was, We're giving you more information about
8:20
this culture of beings, this race of beings, and at the same time
8:26
we're utilizing that though to tell us the specific story of this character. And
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to me, I think the beauty of this to me was the fact that
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what they're doing is, you know, because all the episodes are actually named
8:46
this, it's you know, fear, anger, hate, right, And
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it's a visual representation then of Yoda saying and how when you go down this
9:03
path, it completely consumes you and it consumes everything around you. And I
9:09
thought that that was just phenomenal because you know, again, playing in the
9:16
prequel era, right, we see that, you know, and we know
9:22
where her story ends too, at least we think it ends. And it's
9:24
like, yeah, she just her hate never actually really leads to good things
9:31
for her, and she has a pretty sad life when you see it.
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And so I really enjoyed. Again, it's one of those things where it's
9:46
not beating you over the head, right, it's just as you're watching the
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story, you're immersed in it, and if you're paying attention, it's very
9:56
easy to pick up the lesson that they're going for. It is. I
9:58
think it's interesting that in that arc there's a sense of disappointment from her when
10:05
the town doesn't love her for quote unquote everything she's done for them. Yes,
10:09
it's so interesting because it shows nobody thinks they're the bad guy. Everybody
10:15
thinks they're justified in what they do. I thought that was such a nice
10:18
little flourish to add to remind everybody Morgan Alsbeth thinks she's justified in everything that
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she's doing. She doesn't sit there, you know, twirling the the the
10:28
best gar staff around, going ha ha ha ha, I'm evil, She's
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going, No, I'm right. Why can't they see that everything I've done
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for them, like it's really dysfunctional. But to back it up even further,
10:39
and I know this is a minor thing, and I'll come back to
10:43
the arc with Morgan, but can I just say, because I must be
10:48
just sick inside in some way, but simply hearing Grievous's gleeful, psychopathic laughter
10:56
while he's on his murder spree. I missed that characters so much. Man,
11:01
I miss Grievous so much. He was so much fun. Yeah,
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like loved I loved him in episode three and then when they made him a
11:09
prominent player in Clone Wars, I was like, oh yeah, like I
11:11
can't get enough grievous, And if you announced a six episode arc that was
11:16
just tales of grievous, I feel like sold. I am going to watch
11:20
the equivalent of ten thousand people watching this episode in one day. But to
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bring it back to Elsbeth, what I think is really interesting is it also
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shows how everybody misses meet the new boss same as the old boss, because
11:41
Morgan winds up and it is an absolutely beautiful opening in that second episode when
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the two venitors are going and then the Star Destroyer as we know it comes
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upous, I mean, just an incredible shot. But then that conference room
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that they're in number one was so masterfully evocative of the conference room in two
12:05
thousand and one where they're on the moon base, and just has that vibe
12:13
of that nineteen seventies sci fi vibe that you want evoked from that era.
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But the fact that Elsbeth can't realize that she's putting herself in the employee of
12:26
the very people essentially who murdered her people. But because the dressings are all
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different, it's like she's does she get it, does she not get it?
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Or does she not care? She just wants to inflict pain because she's
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hurt, and it's like, I think it's just a really interesting sort of
12:48
structure in which to find her, and then just having Polayan come up to
12:52
her. I love this idea that Poleayan's been sort of like Throng's frontman for
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so long, you know, going forward and scouting the talent, as it
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were. I I think that you're one hundred percent right on the idea that
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Morgan doesn't care that she is just so angry it actually blinds her to the
13:20
truth of the Empire and what it is and what it represents. I don't
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think she has the ability to see that depth because she is consumed by her
13:33
hatred. And I think that that's one of the things that we see about
13:39
evil in Star Wars, right, is that in the end, it does
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cloud your judgment big time. You know. I think that, you know,
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just having rewatched Return of the Jedi, isn't that the big argument between
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Luke and the Emperor? You know, your overconfidence is your weakness, your
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faith and your friends is yours, you know, and and and that's really
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important to the series, right, because it is Luke's love and belief in
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his friends that outwits, outlasts, and outplays right the Emperor. Uh.
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And I think that there's something really beautiful about that, and that's the I
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think that's the key to Star Wars, right. You know, George even
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said, you know that for him, this was really about you know,
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there's a good and there's an evil, and when you live your life within
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the good, things tend to go better for you. And Morgan Elsbeth is
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very much representative of the person who can't see that, you know. In
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fact, you know, the old saying is, you know, when you
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go for vengeance dig two graves, Well, we see the consequence of her
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actions, you know, with the Mountain Clan, right, she can't let
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go, and what happens she gets the Mountain Clan, she I's daughter killed.
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Uh, And so she never really stops to think about the consequences of
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her own actions. And so, you know, I just think that that's
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something incredibly interesting. And it's again, this this whole arc really just encapsulates
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the way in which all evil in Star Wars is always going to be at
15:28
a disadvantage to that which is good. Right, Like we even see that
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at the end of this arc, right, the Empire lost the New Republic
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one. And and even though she wants to disregard that, you know,
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we know the end of her story, she doesn't win. She dies.
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She kind of she kind of has a win, you know, but the
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greater of getting drawn back to the galaxy. Yeah, it's mischief, you
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know, it's it's good, it's interesting. But you know, we we
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also know that. And that's the that's the thing about Star Wars like that,
16:10
we always know somehow that our heroes are going to find a way to
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overcome whatever obstacle it is that's thrown in front of them. And and so
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I, I don't know, this is uh. I just thought this was
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really cool too, even just the way in which they also create her introduction
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with Thron by her taking his old program and actually making it better. Mm
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hmm. To me, that was incredibly interesting. And in that, you
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know, uh, Thron mentioning he sees the coming end of the Empire because
16:53
of its unwillingness to take care of its own people. It's going to leave
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it weak because people are going to stop believing in it, you know.
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And I just I thought all the whole thing, man, It's like,
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this is the thing that we talk about every time we're talking about Star Wars
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animation. Just when you start to play in your mind all that's happening in
17:15
these fifteen twelve to fifteen minute episodes, it's pretty astounding, right. It's
17:22
storytelling boiled down to its most brutally essential elements, and that is always going
17:30
to be where Star Wars excels, you know, And I think that the
17:37
I actually think one of the greatest things is it would have been so easy
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for the storytellers here to rely too much on too much Thrown as it were,
17:49
and have him dominate at least two of these episodes, but they very
17:53
wisely keep it Morgan Elsbeth's story. This is not thrown story. This is
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Elsbeth's story, and we only get as much Throng as we need to explain
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their connection, and I think that that is great. I also love the
18:10
fact that they have the tension of the town and the town leader that we
18:19
already know from the Mandalorian highlighted and showing how Elsbeth is never going to achieve
18:30
the great power that somebody like Palpatine has in mind. But she's Palpatine on
18:37
a smaller scale. She rules with an iron fist. She thinks she's always
18:41
right. She wants to dominate, and she has a vision. She specifically
18:47
calls out she had a vision and that's what she's focused on, and that's
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exactly what undoes the Emperor too, and she thinks he has the best vision
18:56
and vision literally in the prophesying sense, and we know what path that's going
19:03
to center down. That one thing I wanted to ask about that last episode
19:07
with you, though, is when we hear Ahsoka on the calm link,
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it's not Ahsoka, It's not a Soca. No, it's Bokaton. It's
19:18
Bokaton, Yeah, it is. Because I was gonna I was going to
19:22
mention the voice. I thought it was Ahsoka because it was setting up a
19:26
Soca going there. No. So, in fact, if you look at
19:30
the credits, it's Katie Sakoff. That's why it didn't sound like Ahsoka to
19:34
me. But at the same time, I don't watch the credits. I
19:37
just presumed that it was ahsokah yeah, or supposed to be. I thought
19:45
it was going to be at first, and I was like, wait,
19:48
that's that's not the right voice. Yeah, that's and then I thought I
19:52
thought it was hearing Rosario Dawson through a filter and I was like, oh,
19:56
that must be what it is. I didn't realize that it was Bo
20:02
Katan. I understand why they they would do that, but and I know
20:11
if I if I just looked at the credits, I would have known.
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But listen, man, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's you know,
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I'm not gonna put that on myself. I'm not going to put that on
20:21
anybody. But I think you could hold me relatively blameless for that confusion,
20:26
couldn't you. I can't be the only fan that presumed that that was a
20:30
soaka on the other end of the line. I don't think that anyone could
20:33
blame you for that. And I think what it's so great is that,
20:38
you know, we know the bond that she and Ahsoka had at the end
20:42
of the Clone Wars, with what we saw in Mandalor, they've created this
20:48
really nice relationship and so to see that that will then continue in the future
20:55
is pretty great, right and so and and connecting the dots then of that
21:03
it would be Bo who passes on that message to Ahsoca. Uh that because
21:08
you know, and that's where it's like, oh, man, I need.
21:14
I would really like to see a story where we connect those dots right
21:22
of the relationship between Ahsoka and Bokaton in that time period, because it's pretty
21:29
tumultuous for Bokaton as well, right she loses Mandelor, and there's just so
21:36
much that happens there, and it just is rife with storytelling ideas. It's
21:44
like it's it's it's rife almost with you know, having a great novel written
21:48
about that or something. You know, like this is the type of stuff
21:51
that that I really love that we're doing as we and and this is what
21:53
we talked about with season three of The Bad Match. These animated shows are
22:02
doing such a great job of being that connective tissue for the entire saga,
22:07
and this is one of those places where that is happening. And it makes
22:12
me just more frustrated with the with the live action series because the template is
22:23
there for success. And I'll carry forward a conversation I was having over on
22:30
on House Lights on the Nerd Party about Star Trek Nemesis. Now I'm building
22:36
to a point here right where Nemesis one of its errors in its planning was,
22:45
you know, they wanted to make Star Trek, you know, broad
22:47
and accessible for the you know, the general public. Again. But by
22:53
that point Star Trek is so deep in its own mythos that I would posit
22:59
the that that was the problem. The first thing you have to do is
23:02
you have to win over the diehards. You have to win over the fans
23:06
and make them so crazy happy with your product that they're going to go out
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and say no, no, no, no no, you got to see
23:11
it. You got to see it, you got to see it, and
23:14
get the cash fans in there and get people in. I made the same
23:17
point about Nemesis over there on House Lights, and I would make the same
23:21
point here because the animated stuff has figured out that sweet spot to make us
23:27
with these stories so excited that we want more, that we're clamoring for more,
23:33
that we're saying, you'd be nuts not to do these series. I
23:36
want Tales of the Jedi volume two. I want Tales of the Mandalorians.
23:40
I want Tales of the Rebellion, I want Tales of I want these fifteen
23:42
minute episodes. I want six. Start churning them out, you know,
23:47
at least to six episodes series a year. Bring them out to me,
23:51
right and That's what I think really needs to be carried forward and evangelized,
23:59
if you will, to those making the live action shows. Is those of
24:04
us sitting here having these in depth discussions about the programs. You've got to
24:11
win our hearts, as many of our hearts as you can so that we
24:17
go out and we mark it for you. Because that's how this works now.
24:21
And I know it seems like I'm belaboring the point, but that is
24:26
why Tales of the Empire is so great. That's why Bad Bat season three
24:30
is so great because it fires me up. And when somebody says, oh,
24:33
I'm a Star Wars fan, I can say, hey, did you
24:36
catch Tales of the Empire? Hey did you watch Bad Bad season three?
24:40
Because they're great. You got to see them. I'm not going out and
24:42
saying to them, hey did you catch I'm not throwing shade. There were
24:45
things about it that I like too, but I'm not saying man book a
24:49
bobafet right. No, I'm talking about the I'm talking about the animated stuff
24:53
because they've unlocked the story potential that we all want. Sorry, I'm off
25:00
my soapbox now standout. No, it's it. There's nothing to apologize for
25:04
obviously. I think everybody who knows our relationship and our conversations knows that I
25:12
one hundred percent agree with you in that and I think you bringing up that
25:17
conversation you guys had on House Lights is one hundred percent accurate. I mean,
25:21
that's what happened right with that show. You're at a point in a
25:30
series when what really matters is the fans because they're the ones who are there
25:37
for the ambassador for that series moving forward. And if they are not then
25:44
invested in that series anymore, and you're not giving them something to be excited
25:49
about, and then go tell others about you don't have any ambassadors anymore.
25:56
And that's what you need in a series, is you need somebody to be
26:00
an ambassador for your series. And I think that's you know, what they've
26:07
learned, you know. I think it's one of the places where and I'll
26:11
make a reference to you know, we did this on an assembling Avengers,
26:15
right we were talking through all the Marvel stuff and what happened with Marvel They
26:22
started to lose everybody because it wasn't interesting enough for you to want to continue
26:30
with. They weren't keeping you interested because it wasn't focused enough. It just
26:37
you know, something was missing. And that's what I think this stuff for
26:45
Star Wars is doing right there. It doesn't feel like there's something missing,
26:49
like you said, it's leaving us like, oh my gosh, I just
26:52
need to know more about this and I need more of this, and you
26:55
know, and that's the fantastic thing. And that's a place too. Where
26:59
as we look at that second arc with Barris, you know, that's a
27:03
character who had been left on the side, right she had been left as
27:11
that series wrapped up. We didn't know what happened with her, and so
27:17
we all assume that something must have happened with her, because you know,
27:21
she is a Jedi who had questioned the Jedi Order, was taken into custody,
27:30
and soon after that, you know, it became the Empire, So
27:33
why wouldn't they be interested in her? And so to then through her begin
27:42
to get to see the beginnings of the Inquisitorial Squad was I think a phenomenal
27:49
way of using this character to not only tell her story, but at the
27:55
same time help us understand a story of how the Empire begins creating this anti
28:03
Jedi. Right this perverse version of the Jedi, this perverse family right,
28:11
which I loved. I loved as well. One point I'll go to and
28:18
then and then we can we can back up. But one thing I want
28:22
to say is that when Vader walked in in that second episode, first and
28:30
foremost a a an incredible, incredible what it wasn't the second episode, It's
28:38
it was the first episode. I'm sorry when when when she becomes the inquisitor
28:42
the first episode, when Vader walks in, the attention to detail on his
28:48
costume, trust me, I have the pre Empire Strikes Back costume for Darth
28:56
Vader is burned behind my retinas. I see it in my dreams, and
29:02
everything down to how the codpiece is laid out to the every It's not just
29:07
the way that the the that the fabric is laid out over the armor and
29:11
stuff like that. It is to a tee and it fell. It thrilled
29:15
me. It filled my soul with happiness to see it. And that shot
29:22
where you see his head sit down, I've never seen a more photorealistic animated
29:34
a depiction of anything before. It looked like they had somebody in the actual
29:41
outfit shot there. And it was amazing. But to double back, one
29:47
of the things I love about the way the arc kicks off, I truly
29:51
love it, is that she's hearing echoing through the forest the horrors of Order
29:56
sixty six going down, and that is a huge touchstone. It gets back
30:03
to what we've talked about before with the bad batch and everything like that.
30:07
I have an anchor point. I know exactly what moment in time and what's
30:12
going on. You don't have to waste any backstory with somebody saying, hey
30:17
did you hear about what happened to the Jedi temple? Oh? Hey did
30:19
you know? This sort of no boom and it's not efficient storytelling using audio
30:26
and her waking up from that nightmare, I know in less than ten seconds,
30:30
Oh, this is where I am, and this is where the arc
30:33
is kicking got it after effects here, yep, just like starting Elsbeth's arc
30:37
with the slaughter on Dathamere. Oh, okay, I know exactly where we
30:42
are. I know, Okay, you don't have to waste any backstory with
30:45
me. I know where we're starting from. What did you think of seeing
30:52
the inquisitorious Inquisitorium? The building's the inquisitorium whatever the building's do. What did
31:00
you think of seeing it under construction? I love that too, because,
31:07
like you mentioned, with that, we know exactly where we are in the
31:11
timeline. We know that we're at the very beginnings, like this is the
31:18
the empire is very very young, right, and that we haven't been around
31:26
for a while, and so therefore we haven't been around all that long.
31:33
And so I think that it just it's really cool to see that we're we
31:42
are on the ground floor. Like Barras is one of the original inquisitors,
31:48
you know, and and in fact, you know, the person that she's
31:53
facing off with too, is one of the original inquisitors to be brought in
32:00
to see if they could be, you know, an apprentice, to be
32:06
a brother in this again, this perverse family that they're creating, and I
32:10
think it's it's fantastic, And so I loved getting to see the fact that
32:19
this fortress is not complete yet. And I also got to love the fact
32:23
that as we utilize many genres to tell our stories, we have a whole
32:31
dark night fight scene, we've only got openings for one, so we're gonna
32:38
have tryouts, yes, And that was amazing, It was incredible It was
32:46
one of the best touches of any of the episode's released in Tales of the
32:50
Empire. I had the same thought that you did, where it's like,
32:53
unfortunately this only one open here you go, And all that was missing was
32:59
that I was just like the pulque yea. All that it was missing was
33:02
he led your whispering, make it fast. Yeah, but that actually plays
33:07
into something that I wanted to bring up because of the arena where they're fighting
33:12
first and foremost, how beautiful a fight is it, Where it's like,
33:15
oh, they wouldn't dare kill us, I don't care. I'm not taking
33:16
that chance, and like, you know, forcing each other into that only
33:21
the strong survived sort of thing. But I gotta know, I'm dying to
33:29
know now the origin of all of the stone with the ruins on it at
33:35
the core of the Inquisitorium, miss inquisitoriusm whatever the building's called. I loved
33:44
that touch. Yeah, the idea that this was built on an old temple
33:47
of some sort, Please tell me more, including one that has a bottomless
33:52
pit. Like if anything screams sith temple to me all of a sudden,
33:59
The Mousta Farsis is even more interesting to me because most of far wasn't just
34:04
picked willy nilly, and this planet that's there with it. Oh wait,
34:08
that means there's a whole Sith history that ties into like the old Tales of
34:12
the Jedi comics that I read back in the nineteen nineties and everything. I
34:15
want to know more about that place, Like, yeah, how incredible was
34:21
that to see stone? Like they have the secret staircase and the stone and
34:24
the ruins everywhere. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. I think,
34:30
you know, again, this is a place where we keep building on
34:36
all of these things, and it keeps creating more and more questions and incredibly
34:42
fun questions for us as fans. Right to want to know where they get
34:50
those stones, like are they trance planting right? You know? An old
34:55
Sith temple to this spot here? You know, I was, I was
35:02
a little sad that we didn't get a chance to visit, you know,
35:06
the basement where they keep all their Jedi that they've killed. You know,
35:14
you know, I think what it does, just like Tales of the Jedi
35:16
did, lets us know there's so much more story to be able to tell
35:22
here. And you know, I think the beauty of this arc for Baris
35:32
was the fact that we are creating a very interesting redemption arc for her because
35:40
she's a character who starts off on the right side, becomes completely disillusioned,
35:45
has what she says a darkness take over her, and then is able to
35:50
see the light. And what allows her to see the light is the sadistic
35:55
nature of the evil that the Empire represents in its truest form there with I
36:02
believe it's the Fourth Sister that she's with Lynn, and she's finally able to
36:10
see through the lives of the Empire because you know, when they first get
36:15
on that planet, she's like, well, you know they're having the conversation.
36:19
She's like, well, well, let's get them back on the right
36:21
course so they can finally prosper. She believes that the Empire is going to
36:24
be this thing that brings good and not evil, and what she comes face
36:30
to face with is this that in the end, the Jedi were actually right.
36:37
The Jedi that she condemned were right all along, you know, in
36:42
what they were doing, were they did? They have their faults and their
36:45
foibles, yes, but that she was wrong in that and realizes in seeing
36:54
the true picture of evil. She's able, unlike Anakin right to be able
37:02
to make the differentiation and admit that she was wrong and turn back to the
37:12
very core of what was the Jedi teachings. Well, I think it's because
37:19
I completely I'm in line with what you're talking about there. I think that
37:24
because you bring up Vader, I will always go back to there was a
37:29
comic, it was a Star Wars tales or whatever, And I think it's
37:31
the truest thing of all. Why does it take Vader so long to wake
37:36
up? Why are there those that can't wake up from the dark side.
37:38
I think what Barris lacks is self hatred. That is what will lock you
37:45
into that crap and you can't get out of it. And I think Elsbeth
37:50
hates herself to a certain extent. There's a self loathing there, and so
37:53
I think having these arcs side by side, seeing Elsbeth lock into it more,
38:02
but then Barras come out of it, it demonstrates, I think,
38:07
very clearly, what is the core fundamental character difference between these two people.
38:13
They're both faced with, lack of a better term, a genocidal event that
38:20
wipes out everybody that they knew and loved, and then they dealt with it.
38:24
How did they deal with that internal trauma? Elsbeth becomes hateful, wants
38:30
to take it out on everybody else, wants to make everybody suffer as much
38:34
as she did. And it's because she hates herself, because her sense of
38:38
self worth. I'm not talking about she blames herself for anything. I'm saying
38:43
like, she hates where she is, what she feels she has to do.
38:47
It's self justification on a grand scale. Anakins in that camp. But
38:52
then you can trast it with Barras. Barras there was a righteousness to her
38:59
actions. She realizes she was wrong, but that's because she wasn't motivated by
39:07
self, even back when she's in prison. She was misguided, she was
39:13
wrong, but she was motivated by a sense of love and care that was
39:17
just misdirected. And I mean that points as to why Anakin eventually can come
39:22
back out of the other end. But you know, Barriss is sort of
39:29
you know, in miniature, that sort of echo that happens, and so
39:35
I think having these two arcs, that's another thing you have to congratulate the
39:38
series on. And it goes back to Tales of the Jedi as well.
39:42
We're going to tell you two arcs, two people that potentially could have wound
39:45
up the same way, but they processed what happened to them differently, and
39:50
it leads to conversations like this where it's like, what was fundamentally different about
39:55
the two because they well, I mean they do the same thing and Tale
40:00
the Jedi, right exactly? No, so uh and and you know,
40:04
I I think the beauty of this is that Barris is, like you said,
40:14
the antithesis to Morgan Elsbeth. She's the one who's able to let go
40:21
of fear, anger and hate, and she's the one who helps Lynn do
40:27
the same thing to let that that the one way out is to let go
40:35
of those things. And the beauty of that too is there's there's an interesting
40:40
like Harry Potter connection for me in this, which was, you know,
40:46
she keeps calling the fourth Sister Lynn the same way that Dumbledore and Harry called
40:52
Voldemort tom mm hmm. And it's the recognition of who they truly are are
41:00
and were that all of her denial can't get rid of the fact of who
41:07
she was, and like you said, Morgan hates herself in the end,
41:10
Voldemort hates himself right because he sees himself as weak, And I think that's
41:20
something that's it's incredibly interesting. It takes true humility to be able to see
41:25
yourself as you are and then be able to look to move forward, look
41:32
to grow, and that's something I think is really interesting about the way in
41:37
which you know Baress dies here, but in this death she also saves a
41:45
life. Yes, And I think I love the fact that you're talking about
41:51
the Harry Potter thing because there's essentially the hall of Mirrors in that cave,
41:57
and it's that, you know, the mirror of your heart's sire spelled backwards
42:00
in the first Harry Potter thing, where it's like what do you see when
42:04
you look in the mirror? It's a you know or or the never Ending
42:07
Story or you know, whatever thing is used, like you look in the
42:08
mirror, what do you see? It's going to tell you everything you need
42:13
to know. And I also have to give the editing in that third episode
42:19
a special shout out for that cave sequence, especially even though even though in
42:25
like my little lizard brain part of my brain I knew this had to have
42:30
been like when it happened. I was like, oh, of course it
42:32
did. But when you know, when Lynn is walking around and she hears
42:42
you know, let me help you, or words to that effect, and
42:44
she lashes out with the saber and she winds up stabbing bears, soofie,
42:51
I gasped because it's the only way the story could go. But it still
42:54
did it in such a way that I went, oh, oh no,
42:59
And then I had that second where I was like, of course, right,
43:02
of course, that's what's going to happen. But I still, even
43:07
the second and third time I watched it, it still gave me that jump
43:09
because it's put it. It's like any good jump scare in a horror movie.
43:14
Honestly, no matter how many times you go back to it, you'll
43:16
still jump a little bit. There's anybody who's seen The Exorcist three, you
43:21
know the scene I'm talking about when I say that I still watch it to
43:23
this day. I've watched that. I've watched the hell out of that movie
43:27
over decades, and there's still one scene where I can never quite get it
43:30
right when it's going to happen, and I just about jump out of my
43:32
seat every time. This is that same sort of moment where it's so perfectly
43:39
timed and the build up to it is so perfect. I mean, that
43:44
cave thing could have gotten so boring, so repetitive, so dumb, but
43:49
it was so perfectly put together well. And the beauty of that is I
43:54
think that it's a version of the cave on Dagaba, right yep, which
44:01
is you bring in only what you bring with you and so and that's why
44:09
Barris tells her there is one way out, and that's to let go of
44:15
the things that are keeping you stuck here. And in some ways it also
44:19
references you know, starts with Deep Space nine and Emissary right where the prophets
44:24
tell Cisco, you're stuck here, you live here, which is in the
44:32
moment when his wife dies that he is he's kind of rooted himself in this
44:37
place and he can't let it go, and so they help him to be
44:40
able to do so. And in the same way, Barris does the same
44:45
thing for Lynn to be able to let go of that thing, which I
44:49
think, like you mentioned, there is that sense of anger, hate,
44:54
fear, but it's also in some ways that intense hatred of oneself that makes
44:59
you lash out at everybody else and want to dominate everybody else because it's the
45:07
only thing that makes you feel better about you, right, and just how
45:10
incredibly then and this is I think the tough thing is it shows us just
45:16
how incredibly broken we are as people. And that's the beauty I think of
45:22
this, this whole arc, and you know, it's you know, I
45:29
gotta say it, but it's the mirror Room done right, you know,
45:34
And they nail it completely, And like you said, it could have been
45:40
extremely boring, very quickly, but they find a way to basically do exactly
45:49
the same thing that we saw, and the Empire strikes back and make it
45:52
feel fresh and new and great without me going like, oh, they've already
45:58
done that before. And what I love is BEARSS follows the fine tradition that
46:06
you know, I have friends where they reject this. They don't plug into
46:08
it, and it's fine, you know, I'm not passing judgment on anybody,
46:14
but they fixate on things like when Yoda says to Luke, when gone,
46:19
am I the last of the Jedi? You will be? But then,
46:21
of course we Knowhsaka is out there, we know the Balin's skulls out
46:23
there, We barrass Off he was out there, we got other people that
46:28
were out there. And he says, oh, but the Yoda said the
46:31
last of the Jedi, you will be. And I will say yeah,
46:34
from a certain point of view, because barrass Ahsoka and others, they've become
46:42
the Jedi that we always imagined Jedi would be. Like no counsel, no
46:49
formality to it, no bureaucratic structure, no you know, having to talk
46:55
to the Senate, no police force sort of stuff, but in a sense
47:00
etic who lives out there, truly communing with the will of the force.
47:05
And Barras even says it when Lynn is going to go after them, and
47:09
she says, she's basically saying she's like, yeah, you're going to go
47:14
after them, let's give him a head start. That seems fair, and
47:17
you know, and and Lynn saying, you know, basically, I won't
47:22
let you stand in my way, and Barras saying, well, I'm not
47:25
going to right. It's that trust in the will of the force to say,
47:30
if you're meant to get them, I can't stop it from happening.
47:34
Well, well, and not only that too, but it's like you're in
47:37
your own way, yep, and you don't realize it. Yep. And
47:40
that's that again, there's so many layers to this, right, I think
47:45
that's the thing that's incredibly beautiful. Also, go ahead, No, I
47:50
was just gonna say I'm agreeing with you. Like again, we get back
47:52
to the point of like the template is right here, guys, come here
47:57
and watch it. Yeah, this is a fifteen minute after and look at
48:00
the philosophical philosophical depth just in this this fifteen minutes right here. Yeah,
48:07
where we can we could fixate on this and we can glom onto this and
48:10
say, oh, well, you know the Jedi, this the will of
48:14
the force that that you know, were they ever meant to? What's what
48:16
role does destiny and free will play with each other? You know, how
48:21
obligated are you to go and and you know and trust that you know,
48:25
to quote Spot from Star Trek six, you must have faith that the universe
48:29
will unfold as it should no matter what bears off he does. The will
48:32
of the forest will determine whether Lynne succeeds in her dark Side mission. Doesn't
48:37
mean she won't resist her, doesn't mean she won't try to talk to her,
48:42
but she doesn't try to fight her. She doesn't try to kill her.
48:45
She just talks to her. She just says to her, you know,
48:51
you're gonna have to be the one to find your way through this.
48:53
So sorry, I just I get so excited about those sorts of moments in
48:57
Star Wars. And you know, I think one of the things too,
49:01
that I've loved about the animated series, and we've seen it over and over
49:05
again, we you know, obviously saw it the fact that you know,
49:07
throw On is back, you're bringing in Rook, but with the Barriss Offie
49:10
arc, you we're leaning into the Clone Wars novels that came out during the
49:16
prequel era where she is U and was a Jedi medic. Yes, and
49:24
basically the the duology that she was in was was was mash for Jedi.
49:31
It was a great story. And so to see her become a healer here
49:37
and become this this this old wise woman that everybody comes to for healing and
49:43
help felt so reminiscent of those types of things that we saw in that series,
49:49
you know, And just to utilize those little bits and nuggets like to
49:52
reward the fans like that, as you were talking about that idea of like
49:57
that we're rewarding those longtime fans and giving them something to get excited about.
50:04
That's one of the ways they did it, and it's it's phenomenal. And
50:07
so, you know, I think, honestly, the only question that comes
50:10
down to, and I'm really interested, where do you end up with your
50:15
ratings on this series? Honestly, I'll give it a five. I mean,
50:20
listen, I'm rating it as a fan and it's a series four fans.
50:23
Did it give me everything I was looking for? It actually exceeded expectations
50:28
amazingly. It gave me beautiful stuff to watch. It gave me efficient storytelling.
50:35
It gave me little moments of thrills seeing Vader, seeing Grievous, seeing
50:39
Dathamir again, finding out there's more to Dathamir than I imagine. I mean,
50:44
now we've got Night Sisters, We've got Mountain Clan, and we've got
50:49
you know that, we've got the men that Maul and Savage came from.
50:53
Like, Dathamir is suddenly a more complex place where I'm like, well,
50:57
okay, let's go back there. Let's let's talk a little bit more about
51:00
what was going on there, and we have more of a sense of how
51:06
the empire was coming together, and how it was doomed from the start,
51:10
and how somebody like Thrawn was the only one that saw it and was like,
51:15
Hey, these guys don't really know what they're doing and if I play
51:20
my cards right, and it's gonna be my empire because who everybody's really short
51:25
sighted here, And it's like, yeah, that's awesome. This gave me
51:30
what I want. And the visually speaking, strict visuals Barrass fighting for her
51:38
spot, that pit, the Joker fight, the Dark Knight fight, with
51:44
the way that it is all put together, and the Star Destroyers over Coruscant,
51:52
and the conference room there that scene visually feast, like there are so
51:58
many things that are visually interesting, but those are my two highlights right there
52:01
that I'll just throw out there to you. So yeah, five for me.
52:05
Loved it absolutely, you know, top notch work again. Yeah,
52:09
yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm at a place where I think I would
52:14
give this a four point five. And I think that the reasons for that
52:17
are is that I think it's with the Morgan storyline, is that I do
52:29
feel like, maybe maybe this is just me, but I wanted a little
52:34
bit more to her her storyline in the sense that you know, we jump
52:42
it seems like a lot, and to go from the Empire all the way
52:49
to the New Republic time period seemed to be something to where there's a lot
52:54
of story there that I feel like I'm just kind of missing. And so
52:59
I think that's the place where and if there's any criticism, basically I have,
53:05
I think that her arc feels like it almost needed one more episode to
53:10
really fill it out in the way that I would personally have wanted. That's
53:15
a personal thing, and so therefore, as I've thought more and more about
53:23
it, honestly, that's just a place where I felt like I really liked
53:28
it. But I also just felt like they're you know, you didn't have
53:34
to just We've talked about this a bunch, right, it's streaming, guys.
53:38
You don't have to be locked into these Oh we can only do three
53:42
and three. You know, if you need four stories in this arc and
53:45
three in that one, do what you need to do. And to me,
53:47
this felt like a place where I would have really loved to have had
53:51
one more episode in between there to really flesh out her as a character.
53:59
And I find that so interesting because it is such a personal thing because I
54:01
simply love the fact and I would stick with three because I get her in
54:06
the Clone Wars, in the Empire and the post Empire, so I get
54:10
the sense of a life lived like all of the change that she's been through,
54:17
all of the crazy stuff that she's never changes, and all she does
54:22
is is follow that same mark. Yeah, straight through. I think that's
54:27
a really interesting thing. And the thing is I also look at it as
54:30
you know, if they really want to be completist about it, I'll probably
54:35
get a book at some point. That's fine. I'm going to live with
54:37
that. I don't need one now though, So yeah, you know,
54:42
yeah, well John, if you know people wanted to say what's going on
54:45
with John, where might they find you and be able to catch up with
54:50
what's going on in the world of Kesslvania. Well, Kessylvania a random protectorate
54:57
in the world. It is a very small but I rule it with an
55:02
iron fist wrapped at a velvet glove. You can find me as Kessel Junkie
55:07
out there running for office in twenty twenty four, the one honest candidate that
55:10
you will ever find. And you can find me also on a couple of
55:15
shows, obviously Aggressive Negotiations and also house lights over on the nerd Party which
55:21
which we mentioned earlier where we look at the work of directors and Matt,
55:27
I mean six ZHO two Club. You had me on here frequently enough,
55:30
and I know that this is the origin point of Aggressive Negotiations and this is
55:37
one heck of a place to be. But where else can people find you?
55:40
Well, I'm all over social media under the name Matt Rushing Zoe two.
55:44
You can also find me on the nerd Party network outside Aggressive Negotiations with
55:50
al posts talking about every single chapter the Harry Potter series, one chapter a
55:53
time, and on the TFM network. Outside of the six H two Club,
55:58
you can find me doing Warp five, the Artificial Tango, Saddle Up,
56:02
the Orb, and sometimes you'll find me on literary tracks. But John,
56:07
you know, I think it's time to maybe close these negotiations and you
56:12
know, have people come back later, because I don't know, I'm just
56:15
kind of hungry, and maybe we could go and actually hang out at a
56:19
bar and get something to eat. I think that'd be great. And so
56:22
I think it's time to close these negotiations. And y'all come back now you're
56:27
here. Join the revolution, Join the Nerd Party.