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Episode 20: The Tacit Confession · Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast

• S1, E20 The Tacit Confession (Final Edit): Welcome to Crooked Tree, a West Memphis 3 podcast. They kept asking me, saying, Well, even if you didn't do it, we know that you know something about it. And so I said, Well, I'll tell you everything I know if you let me talk to my mom. And after I talked to my mom, he said, Alright, now tell us everything you know. I said, I don't know nothing. And they got mad. Mm-hmm. Hello, everyone, and welcome back. My name is Kristen. I am here with my co-host Paul. We are West Memphis 3 researchers and victim advocates for the Byers family. And we're gonna pick up where we left off in our last episode. In that episode, we covered the beginning of the day from hell for Damien, where he begins being interviewed by detectives Ridge and Sudbury at the West Memphis Police Department. So during that interview, Damian Eccles was asked questions about his religion, how he felt about certain aspects of the crime, how he learned about certain aspects of the crime, what he would do if he was the killer. And he goes from being a person of interest in this case to being a full blown suspect in the minds of the detectives that are there. And remember who these detectives are it's Detective Ridge, he's the lead detective, and James Sudbury. And James Sudbury has been working with Jerry Driver and Steve Jones, who are persuaded that this might be some type of satanic crime. So they're asking a lot of questions about Damien's religion, his faith, his friends, his background. They wanna know everything about him. And at the end of that ninety minutes, they're gonna ask if he'd be willing to do a polygraph. And Damien decides that he's gonna go ahead and do that. Yeah, that's unfortunate. we're gonna say it again. We wish he had taken a cue from Jason's mom, Gail Grinnell, and just refused to talk to the police at all. That's the best thing she ever could have done for her son. And we wished that Damien had followed suit, but that is not what happened. So we have to tell you what happened that day once he went in to speak with Detective Durham, starting at about 120 PM. And just to throw this in there, Steve Jones did go and try to get Jason to talk that day. And his mom said, No way, you're not talking to my kid. And that was the end of that. So had that advice been followed by Pam and by Damien, the calamity that became May the tenth wouldn't have happened. And this whole case might look very different today. But Damien, after having gone through that grueling interrogation, has now been taken over to Detective Durham's office. Detective Durham is the polygraph examiner for the West Memphis Police Department. The way that this polygraph is structured By the West Memphis Police Department is that there is a pretest interview, the polygraph test itself, and then a post-test interview. They break it up into those three sections. So during the pretest interview, Detective Durham asked general questions about his knowledge of the crime, about his life in general. He had him sign consent forms, consent to take the polygraph, advising him of his rights, that kind of thing. And then the middle section is the polygraph test itself. In this case that will be comprised of ten questions. And then in the post test is another interview where based on those results during the test, Detective Durham will continue asking questions. And each one of these sections, the pre-interview in particular, is kind of lengthy. The he takes his time getting them to go through the forms, asking if he understands what these things mean. And it takes approximately an hour from about one twenty in the afternoon. until about two twenty when he starts the test. We want to play some clips for you from both Damian Eccles and Detective Durham. When they were testifying in court, all of this stuff is jumbled together, this pretest, test, and post test sections. They are explained by both of those individuals in court. But we wanted to go over the structure of those and comment on the clips after they're over and give you some additional information about what was important in those sections. And so the approximate time, when's the approximate time that you finished all of your questioning of him? Approximately three thirty PM. If I can kind of divide up the the time periods of the if I could sort of break it into three different periods of time that you talk to him. if we consider the the test portion the middle and before that the pretest the first part and then after the middle the third part. Did you understand what I'm talking about? If we can divide it those three periods of time. Okay. Okay. Now during the the pretest or the first portion of that, how long did that part last? As best as I possibly can. I believe I started my interview with them at approximately maybe one twenty PM. we had a number of papers to go over and and complete, such as the advice advice, the release form. I tried to be very careful and thorough and make certain that that he understood. I even explained words that I thought he might have a problem with, such as duress or coercion. I explained to him that was pressure or force. I it was not a hurried interview for that reason. I want to be very careful with him. So I'm gonna say that probably I spent maybe as much as as fifty, fifty five minutes before I did the first polygraph chart, formulating the questions, explaining the conduct of the test, instrumentation, trying to answer all those questions as best I could. All right, prior t you're previously testified that the the rights form that he signed was signed at approximately one forty PM and the first chart was completed at two twenty P. Mm-hmm. You know approximately how long the pretest interview part lasted or or or do you consider going over the the polygraph forms and the questions? Is all that considered the the pretest interview? Yes. All right. So so the pretest portion that would have been the first portion. The middle portion been the test itself. And then the conclusion of the third test, I think you understand you talked to him for approximately another forty-five minutes. Correct. Okay. And during that forty-five minutes He continued to deny his involvement in this crime. Is that correct? not completely. There was a period of time when he stopped answering. All right. Well, your the report that that we have says during the post-test interview the subject denied any involvement in this crime. That's is that the language on your report? That's correct. And is that accurate? Do you want me to read the report? No, sir. I want you to ask me my my question, please. This is the statement that says on the first line of your report. I'm asking you, is that accurate? If you'll read f yes, the the first sentence is correct. All right. All right. So during this forty five minute period of time, he didn denied his involvement in the crime? If you'll read on, you you can see where it said I wrote that he he ceased to deny his involvement after a period of time. All right. Officer Dur, do you have a copy of the tape recording that you made during your entire interrogation of Mr. Eccles? I didn't tape record his interview. You didn't tape record any of His interview with you. No. All right. Well, I think the most significant thing that we hear from Detective Durham in that clip is that it wasn't recorded. We have no records whatsoever of what happened in that room other than Detective Durham's notes. And at this point, it's my opinion that he has already formulated some sort of idea about who Damien was and what he was capable of, and probably the fact that he was involved in these murders. So I think his judgment is clear. Cloudy when he begins this interview. Well, the questions he's gonna ask during this interview seems to be based upon some prejudicial information he might be getting, specifically from Sudbury, is where I think he's getting it from. And we're not just pulling this out of the air. When we read these questions, you'll say, yeah, this definitely feels like a Sudbury question for sure. So it feels like there's some cross-contamination between the two. But to me, what's really relevant are the admissions. From Durham that Damien is effectively denying his involvement in all stages of this interview. He never once says, Yes, I did it. But it's going to get controversial at one point. So we're going to bring up that controversy in a little bit. He's already hinting at it, talking about the lack of denial, that kind of thing. And we'll get into what the lack of denial really implies here and what is going on with that in the latter part of this episode. Detective Durham says both on the stand and in his report that Damien denied all involvement. In fact, the remarks on his report from the polygraph say in the pretest interview, the subject denied having been in Robin Hood Hills on May 5th, 1993. He denied being present when the victims were killed and denied having killed any of the victims. He also said he did not know who killed the three victims. So he does report this accurately. Damien agrees, Detective Durham agrees that this is what was said by Damien in this interview. So keep in mind that Durham probably knows what was said to Detectives Ridge and Sudbury in their interview, or at least partially. He's talked with Detective Sudbury at other times. They have Damien in their sights. He's going into this thinking he may very well get a confession. He's hoping something will be indicated in this polygraph and he can come at Damien and say, you're lying. Tell me the truth. Tell me what you know about these murders. That's what he is hoping will happen during all of this two-hour interview that he has with Damien. So we're going to go over the questions. There are 10 questions in total that Detective Durham asked of Damien. Each of these questions has an abbreviation in front of it, which tells you the type of question it is. So I'm going to tell you what type of question it is, and I'm going to read the question. And then Paul's going to give you the answer if there is one. And what I mean by that is they're only telling us the answers to what they deem to be the relevant questions. We don't know what the answers were to the questions that they did not think were relevant. So we can't give you those answers because we don't know what they are. All right, question number one. Is I in. That's an introductory question. This question is not considered relevant. It's just talk. And he can get kind of a baseline from this question. Question number one is Have you ever taken a polygraph test before? Because it's not a relevant question, we actually don't have an answer from Damien on this, not recorded. So question number two is an SR question. That is a sacrifice relevant. question. It's not recorded in the relevant questions as we're talking about. This was not designated relevant. It's a sacrifice relevant question. Question number two is in regard to the murder of those three young boys, are you going to tell the truth during this test? And because it's not a relevant question, we don't have an answer from Damien on this one recorded. I would have thought this would have been a relevant question. Yeah, this is for establishing a baseline on relevant questions. So the IN number one is for non relevant questions. This should be the baseline for that. And if it's a relevant question, you're gonna have a different response, right? 'Cause you're talking about murder. So this is the sacrifice or the throwaway question to establish the baseline for relevant questions is apparently what they're doing. But this is a great question to ask to get an answer on. Sure. All right, number three is an R question, which means it's a relevant question. It reads, At any time Wednesday or Wednesday night, were you in Robin Hood Hills? Damien's answer was no. Number four is a C question. This is a comparison question. That question is, have you ever killed a cat or a dog? And because it's a C question, there's no answer from Damien listed. Number five is an R question. Again, that's a relevant question. Were you present when those boys were killed? Damien said no. Number six is a C question, another comparison question. Have you ever taken part in devil worship? And because it's a C question, there's no answer provided on the report. Number seven is a relevant question. Did you kill any of those three boys? Damien answered no. Number eight is an I-in question or an introductory question. Have you taken any drugs or medication today? There's no answer provided in the report, but there is in the interview an indication to an answer to this, and it might be relevant to that. We'll come to that later on. Number nine is a relevant question. Do you know who killed those three boys? Damien said no. And number 10 has no abbreviation next to it. Do you suspect anyone of having killed those three boys? So this has got an answer for it. Which was no from Damien. So it is a relevant question. It's just not marked as one in his report. All right. So he answered no to all of the questions they deemed to be relevant. In Sudbury's notes during this interview, he has the following remarks. About a year ago, subject was diagnosed as manic depressant and has been on medication since that time. Takes medication once a day at bedtime. Did take medication last night. Pill, seventy-five micrograms, not sure of name of medication. So that seems to be in response to question number eight, which was have you taken any drugs or medication today? And he's answering, Yeah, I take my prescribed medications at nighttime and I took one last night. Following the administration of the polygraph exam by Detective Durham He wrote the following on his report. It is the opinion of this polygraph examiner that this subject recorded significant responses indicative of deception when he answered the above listed relevant questions in the manner noted. And he notes questions three, five, seven, nine, and ten. Every single relevant question that Damien answered no to, he is saying were indicative of deception. Yeah, but every single one of them was a fail. So we have Damien. Denying that he's involved in the murders, he's according to Detective Durham, failing his polygraph. This is gonna get real tense, extremely tense. What we need to do now is probably play a clip from Damien where he's going to respond to some of the pressure because now that he's flunked his polygraph, according to Detective Durham, he's flunked it anyway, they're gonna start putting pressure on him. Really heavy pressure. And we wanna play a clip about Damien talking about how he's going to deal with this situation. And then once they turn you over to Detective Durham, Durham has testified that you were that he talked to you from approximately 140 until about 330 for approximately another two hours. is that is that right is that time period about right? Yes. All right. I'd like to divide the time period that he talked to you into three portions, with the middle portion being the test period of time. Prior to that, the first portion or the the pretest portion, during your the interrogation then, did you deny your involvement in these murders? Yes. Okay. And then during the test portion, did he ask me a series of questions of which you answered no? Yes. And then at the conclusion of that, which was the the third period of time, there was another forty-five minute period of time. During that forty-five-minute period of time, did you deny your involvement in these murders? Yes. Okay. What was Detective Durham's demeanor and how was he treating you during the two hours that he was questioning you? Durham was okay. He never threatened me or anything. Right. During the time that you talked to Durham, did you ever ask for an attorney? Yes. Okay, do you recall if that was during the the first part, the middle part, or the last part? The last part. Okay, so af after you after the a test was performed during that last partner, was this been at this forty five minute period of time? Mm-hmm. After the test. After the test. During that forty five minutes you asked for an attorney? Yes. did you ask this time did you ask for an attorney once or twice? Twice. All right. the first time you asked for an attorney, what was his response? He told me I didn't need to bring him back there because he was just gonna cost us a lot of money and then in the end end up quitting anyway. Did you indicate to him who your attorney was going to be at that time? Yes I did. And who was that? Mike Everett. Alright, and then did you you indicated that you asked a second time for an attorney? And in between that forty five minute time period, how far along or when was it that you asked that? Mm. The first time I asked it was before the test. The other two times was after the test. Okay. And the the second time you asked for an attorney, what was his response? Same thing. Same response. Okay, and how about the third time you asked for an attorney? Same thing. Okay. At any time did he ever stop, say he would stop the questioning and let you talk to Mike Everett, your attorney? Yes, he did. And when was that? Mm, after the test. After the test he said he would stop and let you talk to Mike Everett? Yes. And but did he allow you to do that? He left the room and came back and said he was gone. During the two hour Well let me back up. During the two hour time period between Ridge and Sudbury we're questioning you, did they ever tape record that? No, there's a tape recorder sitting there, but they would not turn it on. Okay, and how about during the time that Officer Durham talked to you? Nope. Did he towards the end of the forty-five minute period of time? Did you make a statement to Detective Durham that I will tell him I will tell you all I know if you'll let me talk to my mother? Yes I did. Okay, and then did they at that time did they allow you to talk to your mother? Yes they did. Okay, once talking with your mother, what was your response to the officers at that point? I told the mother not do it. Okay. And then later did Detective Gitchell talk with you? Yes. Okay. Now it's my understanding from your testimony that you said that you asked for an attorney during the third portion of Durham's interview. And you said that Durham said there's no sense in bringing him back here? Okay. Was it your understanding at that point that Mr. Everett, your attorney, was in the building? I wasn't sure if he was there or not yet, but I knew he was on his way. Okay. And this is at approximately three o'clock in the afternoon? I think so. Okay. What what information did you have that indicated he was on the way? My mother. Okay. And the officers never prevented you from talking with your mother, did they? They did the first time I asked, second time. They were on it. And at what point in this third stage of the interview is it that you say you requested an attorney? It was after Sudbury began to cuss me. Okay. Well, the third stage of the interview. Okay, so it was after Sudbury's in the room? Yes. That that you requested an attorney? After he was finished. Okay. After Sudbury was finished? Yes. Okay. So it wasn't. No, that was the second two times. Okay. Okay. Well the first time you asked for an attorney was at what point during this third stage of the interview with your attorney? First time I asked was the beginning. The beginning of what? First stage. With Durham? Yes. You're now saying that when you first went in there to take the polygraph exam, that at that stage you asked for an attorney then? After he's he beg he started telling me that he knew I was lying anyway. So well that's after the test was administered, correct? I think so. So that might come across as a little confusing, but effectively what Damien is trying to convey to both his own attorney on examination as well as to the prosecuting attorney is that he had requested an attorney be present for his questioning or just to talk to an attorney to confer with him during the pre-interview phase after their conversation with Sudbury. Remember he said Sudbury had cussed him and we played his testimony about being cussed in the last episode. And then he takes the polygraph and then he requests the attorney twice more after the test when he's just there with Detective Durham, according to this testimony from Damien. He says Durham says he knows he's lying and so he's requested an attorney. And just a little bit of background, those first two clips here that you've heard, those are actually from a deno hearing. And a deno hearing takes place in front of a judge, but not in front of the jury. The jury is back in the jury room. And the purpose of this is to decide if a defendant's statements Are admissible if they were made voluntarily. We didn't play all of it, but Damien is repeatedly asked, Were you coerced? Were you bribed? Were you threatened? All these questions to make sure that he was in that interview room of his own free will. And he was. The question here is, did he ask for an attorney? That's the reason they're having this dino hearing is because Damien claimed he asked for an attorney not once, not twice, but three times while he was speaking to Detective Durham. And that's why they are having this hearing to determine whether or not that is true or not, because Durham says no and Damien says yes. Yeah, and he provides the name of the attorney that they're hiring, which is a gentleman by the name of Mike Everett. So this is gonna be Damien Eccles's very first attorney. Mike Everett is indeed his attorney and is hired that day. But we're going to get into the details of Mike Everett in a future episode because it's extremely interesting. how this all plays out. So he's apparently asking for an attorney while this is happening. He's failed his polygraph and these guys are circling on him. They're pretty convinced they've got their guy right here, right in front of them, and they're gonna make their move. So now we know the structure of the interview. We know some basic outline of the interview. We know that Damien is claiming that he's requested an attorney. Durham is still pursuing this interview, nonetheless, he does do the polygraph. And what we want to do is hear what Detective Bill Durham's impressions are of that session that he had with Damien. You are Bill Durham with Westminster Police Department who's previously testified? Yes, sir. Detective Durham, I want to direct your attention to May 10, 1993. On that date, did you have a conversation with the defendant, Damien Eccles? Yes sir, I did. Prior to having that conversation, did you advise him of his rights under to the state and federal constitution and laws? Yes sir, I did. And what time did you advise him of his rights? One forty PM. Did any time did he request the presence of a law? No, sir. Yes, sir. This is a polygraph examination release form which I filled out, signed by Damien Wingneckles and witnessed by myself on May 10th, 1993. Now after having the polygraph release form signed, did you then conduct a polygraph examination? Yes, sir. All right. And when was the first chart completed? The first chart was completed at 220 PM. All right. And how many charts in all do you do? I did three charts. All right. And when was the second chart completed? It's blurred on here, I can't read it. Right. It's blurred on the edge or I can't read the any time on the second chart. All right, how about the third chart? The last chart, third and last chart's completed at two thirty four PM. Following the conclusion of this polygraph examination, did you Based on the results of that polygraph examination, did you question him further? Yes, sir. After he failed his test, I went into an interview with him questioning about the matter. He denied any involvement. All right. Following the polygraph examination, you said that you began to interview the post-test interview? Yes, sir, I did. All right. And during that interview what did he tell you? After we talked for approximately forty five minutes, he made the statement, I'll tell you all about it if you let me talk to my mother. Okay. And thereafter was he allowed to talk to his mother? Yes, sir, he was. We talked with him probably for about five minutes. Okay. and After she talked to him, would he talk to you further? Or would he provide did he go ahead and tell you like he said that he would tell you all about it? No, Sri didn't after his mother left. He again denied any involvement in these murders. Right. Like we said, Damien doesn't just ask for an attorney one time, he asked for an attorney three different times in Detective Durham's presence. And Detective Durham testifies that Damien never asked for an attorney. And His response from Durham, which was there's no point because he's just gonna come in here and you're gonna pay him a lot of money and then he's gonna leave you. What 18-year-old comes up with that response if it's fake? That response rings true to me. So I believe that that was actually said. I believe that Damien did actually ask for an attorney, and that was Detective Durham's response. But Detective Durham is denying on the stand under oath. that Damien ever asked for an attorney. Yeah. So you're once again caught in that position where you have to make a decision whether or not you trust Detective Durham or Damien Eccles. Damien is saying, I asked for an attorney. They continued the questioning after they bullied me off that position. And with that said, I I don't know if if it's legal, but it's certainly probably not ethical, if Durham did in fact get a request for an attorney and he says that exact thing. Hey, might as well just continue doing this and You could polygraph your way through this and just show us that you didn't do this. Just take the polygraph test and prove to us you didn't do it. And so he goes through with it. You know, he's continuously waving his right to that attorney. He's asked for it once. He gets the response back saying, You don't really want to do that. You know, let's take this polygraph test. We'll solve the whole problem right now. And then he, according to Detective Durham, fails the polygraph. And now he's asking for an attorney twice. And we do know he's gonna ask for an attorney because an attorney is going to get involved that evening. It's gonna turn into a big deal. According to Detective Durham's report on the polygraph, after he made the conclusion that deception was indicated, he wrote, In the post-test interview, the subject denied any involvement in this crime. After approximately 45 minutes, I asked the subject what he was afraid of. He replied, the electric chair. He then said he liked the hospital in Little Rock. He said he had been treated there for manic depression. After a short period of time, the subject ceased to be. To deny his involvement, admission through absence of denial. He then said, I will tell you all about it if you will let me talk to my mother. Detective Ridge brought his mother into my office to talk to him. After talking to his mother, he again denied being involved in the murders. After approximately 20 minutes, I asked, You're never going to tell anyone about this but your doctor, are you? He replied no. So that is probably one of the most riveting parts of the entire interview is that portion that comes up in that report. The first part of that is the line where he says, I'll tell you all about it if you let me talk to my mother, which suggests that he knows something, right? So there's that part of it. There's also the ceasing to deny that he's involved in this. They refer to this as a tacit confession. And tacit confessions are you're not saying you didn't do it, therefore that's a confession. Yeah. Now these are not admissible in court and it's not gonna be admissible during his trial, but this is being used as evidence in pursuit of trying to pressure him into coming out with an explicit confession to come out and say, Yeah, I did it. I was there, I was involved in this. Now Damien is going to dispute the details that is being put into this report when he's at trial. Unfortunately, that last part, which honestly is horrific, you're never going to tell anyone about this but your doctor are you? And he replied, No. This isn't brought up again. I have not found anywhere in testimony that this is asked of Damien whether or not he said it. All we have is this one sentence in Detective Durham's report. Yeah, and it hauntingly is written as if it's some kind of again a second tacit confession. He's not saying this. He's saying that he will only talk about it to his doctor, but we'll never be privy to that and we'll never get justice on us. So at this point, we need to play Damien's rebuttal, his response to a lot of this allegation that is coming from Detective Durham. Remember, he has a very big divergence in whether or not he's asked for an attorney or not. Durham has said no. Damien has said I've asked for him three times. But there's clearly a lot of pressure here. And so everybody's stressed out, Durham included. And let's hear what Damien's got to say about this interview. Durham asked you during your interview. I think so. Okay. What were some of the questions dealing with the murder that he he asked you about? Mostly they were just like variations of the thirty two questions. They would just change a couple of words or something and ask them over. Do you recall what your answers were during the the time that you talked with him? Not my exact wording, but I know pretty much what I said. Okay. there was do you recall Detective Ridge testifying That that you made some comment to h him about I'll tell you everything that I know if you let me talk to my mother? Yes I did. Okay. Did you tell him that? Yes I did. Okay. And then did you talk to your mother? Yes I did. Okay. Why did you give that response to him? Because that's the only way he would let me talk to my mother. They kept asking me, saying, Well, even if you didn't do it, we know that you know something about it. And so I said Well, I'll tell you everything I know if you let me talk to my mom and after I talked to my mom he said, All right, now tell us everything you know. I said, I don't know nothing and they got mad. Did he get mad at you? Yes he did based that response. Okay. Did he also ask you what were do you recall did he ask you what were you afraid of? Yes. Right. Do you recall what your answer was? No. Okay. Do you recall looking at the the one page sheet that we have summarizing the two hour conversation that says he asked you what were you afraid of and you said the elector chair. I said that. That's on the sheet that he has. Did you ever tell him you were afraid of the elector chair? I don't remember saying that. Okay. Did Officer Durham ever let you look at any notes he was taking to to to write down your name and confirm yes this is what I told him on that occasion. No I did not. Okay. After talking with Durham Did they have any other officers that wanted to talk with you? About the whole police department came in one at a time. So there's a big difference between what Durham is saying and what Damian Eccles is saying. It's a subtle difference, but it's a major difference. So Durham says in his report, I'll tell you all about it if you let me talk to my mother, implying that he has knowledge and I'm gonna tell you what I know. When Damien gets on the stand he says, I didn't say that. What I said was I'll tell you everything I know. If you let me talk to my mother. Which means if he doesn't know anything, he's going to say, I don't know anything, which is exactly what he just testified to. There's a big difference here. The other interesting thing is that he's asked by his own attorney about the electric chair. And the question on the electric chair is interesting because Damien says, I don't remember giving that answer, but you have to recall, Damien does recall that earlier that day, Detective Sudbury said, We're going to fry your ass. And so he comes into. Detective Durham's interview and says, I'm afraid of the electric chair. Well, why is he afraid of the electric chair? Because Sudbury just threatened him with it. So this all kind of comes to a head when Damien finally asks for his mom. He can't get an attorney. We don't know if he's actually asking for an attorney. There's a dispute about that at this point. Damien says he's asked for an attorney three times. Durham says, No, you haven't asked for an attorney at all. So we do know the polygraph happened. We do know that this has come to a major conflict where Durham is outright accusing him and writing down that he's confessing all this stuff. And Damien says, I have to talk to my mom. And so Pam Hutchinson, who's sitting out in the hallway, is brought in. And she has the opportunity to sit down and talk to Damien. And she does talk about that experience. And the first clip we're going to play is recorded two days after this event happens. She's being interviewed by Detective Ridge about this event. And I want you to catch on to how the West Memphis PD treats. her concerns about her son during this interview. The other day I know I I'm aware you became upset when we had Damien in here and on polygraph examination. Yes, I was very upset. Okay. You were you made aware of the fact that he failed the polygraph examination? Yes, I was. I was not notified that he was being taken to the hospital for samples. Okay. My son was kept here from approximately eleven thirty that morning until after seven that afternoon when we left here. He did not receive a bite of food. Okay. The point I'm trying to make is that Damien is eighteen years old. He considers himself to be a man. Okay. And he was asking to speak to you after we did the hospital examination, the test. Right. Right. Do you feel that maybe as a mother you may be do you feel like there's any way that you may be projecting yourself as too much of a mother at this point in his life? No, I don't. I think he needs me right now. Very much. Well that that's what I'm trying to get to. And I don't as far as dominating him and telling him you can or cannot do this or that. I don't, but he has enough respect for me. Yeah, well I'm not saying he doesn't respect you because I know he does. That he will ask me, even though he's eighteen years old, Mom, can I do this or he's legally because he's eighteen years old, do you feel like he needs your protection? morally matters, let's say I don't mean you have to To a certain extent I feel like he does. So that second interviewer, by the way, is James Sudbury. He's always gonna be around in this stuff. You could tell right away, Ridge is making it very clear they don't really appreciate Pam interfering in their investigation. They wanna have access to Damien and he's in a very subtle and in my opinion, a little manipulatively trying to push her off. And she says, No, he needs me and I'm not going anywhere. And here's the thing, we're both parents. I'm a mom. I have a child who's older than Damien was at that time. You don't stop being a parent no matter what age your child is. Both of my parents would still do that same thing for me as a grown adult. I I understand what the police are trying to do here, but being a parent doesn't stop when your child turns eighteen. Your concern for your child doesn't stop when your child turns eighteen. Their well being doesn't stop. You want them to have food and drink during the day. You want them to have rest. You want them to be treated kindly. All of these things and There's no reason that Pam should not want those things for her son. I think this is what any parent would and should do if their child's being questioned by the police. Well, her eighteen-year-old son, according to her, has not eaten. He has not drank anything. He's going through a very stressful interrogation. The first guys are asking about his ex-girlfriends and his religion and his friends, and they're filling out this 32 part questionnaire. He's told he flunked the polygraph and he's now the prime suspect in all of this stuff. His blood sugar is dropping. There's all kinds of concerns that are happening on her behalf. And this is gonna wind up being brought up as an issue at trial as to whether or not he was fed properly. Because when people get desperate, they say desperate things. And so we got Damien not being fed. He's in there. His mom is upset. She comes in here and she's gonna make it very clear to Damien that she doesn't think that they need to continue questioning him or any further. This may or may not be a police tactic. The police do all kind I don't mean West Memphis in particular, I mean in general, do all kinds of things during interviews to try to make a suspect uncomfortable. They may make the temperature really cold or really hot so that the person's sweating. They may give them numerous bottles of water and then they have this urge to use the restroom and they continue to question them so that they're very uncomfortable because they have a full bladder. There's all kinds of tactics. We read some of those in that FBI report about where to place the chair up against a wall to keep from looking at the door so there's an escape route. They have all of these different things that they can do to try to put pressure on their suspect and elicit the responses that they're looking for. And I don't know if that was in the minds of the West Memphis police detectives that day when they were questioning Damien, but I would say there's a good chance. Well, so Damien is rolling himself over from Ridge and Sudbury saying I'll go ahead and do the polygraph. I'll show you that I'm telling the truth. He then goes in, he flunks the polygraph, and now he's up against it. And they say, Hey, how about this? We would like to collect biological samples from you and do a sexual assault kit. We want to take you down to the hospital. And this is happening also right at the end of the polygraph. So Damien, of course, is saying, Well, I've told them I haven't done anything. So this should prove that I didn't do anything. So he's gonna consent to going down to this hospital. His mom is not gonna be happy about this, as she's just said. in that interview, she said, I didn't know they were gonna take him down to the hospital. She feels like this thing is snowballing right before her eyes. So this is and and she's right. Absolutely she's right. This is gonna change both their lives forever. So he does a medical release and they head off to the hospital. But she's got a couple more details that she brings up at trial that I think is relevant. And she brings up the not eating. So we're not gonna play the fact that she's super upset she gets into that at trial. We're gonna pick up though from that point and Finish the rest of her concerns. Now you said that you were upset when you were up there. is are you saying that's the reason you were upset? I was upset because he was carried in and kept so long. how did you feel about them questioning him for that long period of time? I didn't mind that they had questioned him for that long period of time. It was just that he was kept without anything to drink or eat and I was upset over that. Your honor, I object to that. Do you have any personal knowledge about whether or not he was given anything to eat or drink? I was t Damien told me that he was not given anything to eat. Well did an officer tell you anything? No. Officer Durham had come out and talked to me one time and I told him that Damien had not had anything to eat or drink before he left home and he said he would get him something. Okay. Now, that was Officer Durrell? Yes, sir. Did someone ask you about talking with Damien? yes, sir. Who was that? I believe it was Mike Allen. Mike Allen? Yes. Did you indeed talk with him that day? With ho. Damien? yes, sir. And what did you tell him? I asked him did he know anything about the murders. Well okay. Now you don't need to say what he said, but you asked him that. Yes. And did you say anything else? Yes, sir. What what else did you say? I told him not to say anything else, that we had alibis and I would get in touch with an attorney. And were officers present when you talked? Yes. And Did you indeed contact a lawyer? Yes, I did. Who did you contact? Mike Everett. So you can see that the prosecutor is a little worried about food being brought up, that he's under some type of duress, right? Not that it's torture, but that he's not able to think clearly. He's making quick and rash decisions that might be more tied to his biological state of being rather than the truth about the crime itself. Yeah, and it's really interesting because Pam says. That she doesn't mind how long he was questioned. She's not opposed to the police questioning her son about the murders. She doesn't tell Damien to stop talking until Damien tells her that they're saying he's failed the polygraph at the end of that post interview. So she was being completely cooperative. She just has a concern for the well-being of her child. Now, at the end of the last clip we played from Damien, you heard him say that they basically paraded like the whole police department in front of him that day while he was being interviewed. It wasn't just the police who were there that day who were observing and getting reports about what Damien was saying in those interviews. Prosecutor Fogelman was there as well. And he had a vested interest in what was going on, in what Damien was reporting. in all of the questions that the detectives were asking Damien. He was hanging around hoping that he was gonna get a confession or some details about the crime, something to use to charge someone, probably Damien, with that very day. My name's John Fogel, Fogman, if you I think you have some knowledge of of the matters of hand at this point, if you want to tell the court what you know. Your Honor, on May the tenth when Mr. Eckwood was given this polygraph examination, I was present in the police department. I do recall at at one point the officer's coming out saying that he wanted to talk to his mother. she was contacted, brought in, she talked to the defendant and shortly after that I left. At the time I left, Senator Everett had not arrived at that time. What time is that? Do know? I don't have any idea what time it was. I normally May the tenth is a Monday and I'm the city attorney at Marion and normally we have court at three thirty, but I may not have been there that day. I I I don't know. I don't know what time it was. Ms. Fulman do you know if any officers talked to Mr Eccles prior to Officer Durham? Through my f familiarity with the file, it's my understanding that Detective Ridge talked to him. I believe the subject description form was filled out like around noon, something like that, and that they had talked to him before. Do you recall my friend that this would have been Detective Ridge and also Lieutenant Sudbury? I believe he's listed on the form. I don't have any personal knowledge of of it. Would that have been I know there was a series of thirty two questions, a questionnaire that was filled out, I think was asked before. of numerous suspects in this case. it's my understanding that was part of their question. Their question. And then do you have any personal knowledge of who may have talked to Mr. Eccles? Well, I think you indicated that you had left right after work sometime right about the time his mother talked with him? Right it was it was after his mother had talked to him because I remember officers commenting about was we were hoping that she would encourage him to to talk and that didn't didn't happen. I'm sorry. that's and I remember that conversation and then after that I left and like I say, I don't know whether I went to city court or not. And did you come to your knowledge did you come back to the police station there now? No, I did not. So it's pretty clear that at some point during the questioning of Damian Eccles, either when Ridge and Sudbury were questioning him or when Detective Durham is doing the polygraph examination, the prosecutor is summoned and he's monitoring this entire situation. And Had Damien said anything more than what he'd already said, he probably would have been arrested that day and charged with this crime on the basis of the interviews he had just given. So this is very ominous. It shows how serious they were about this. And Damien, I don't think, ever appreciated the risk that he was taking talking to the police officers this day, to the point where the prosecutor was like the next room over. After going through all of this information from last episode and this episode, we can make a timeline for Damien up to the time he finished his polygraph and his post interview for his polygraph. And let's go over that so we know exactly as as close as we can where Damien was and what he was doing on May the tenth. So eleven fifty-four AM. His subject description is taken during his interview with Ridge and Sudbury was present. According to Damien's mom Pam, they arrived about eleven thirty. So they probably had to wait for a few minutes or that he talked with Ridge and Sudberry for a few minutes before this subject description was taken. But it was taken at eleven fifty-four AM as well as a consent to search, which was signed by Detective Ridge and Shane Griffin. At 120 p.m., Damien began his interview with Detective Durham. Durham said he spoke with Damien for about 55 minutes before he began the polygraph, which would put the polygraph starting at around 210 or 215 PM. He was advised of his rights at 140 PM according to the rights form. At 220 PM, That is the time written on the polygraph chart and the time that Durham said that the first chart was completed. If you are following along and you're looking at his charts on Callahan, they are all on there. It's on page two. The time is written there at 2:20 p.m. at the end of the first chart completion. During testimony, Durham said that he could not read the time at the conclusion of the second chart. However, if you Look at that chart, it's on page six. The time is two twenty-eight p.m. The end of the first chart was at two twenty. The end of the second chart is two twenty-eight. And then the end of the third chart, which was the last chart, is on page eight of the polygraph charts, and that is time stamped at two thirty-four p.m. Detective Durham said that the post interview lasted 45 minutes. During that time, Damien asked to speak with his mother and that he did so for about five minutes, Detective Durham stated during his testimony that that began at about three fifteen PM. And then he spoke with Damien for another fifteen minutes. So this puts him ending the interview at 330, 335 PM. So you might be saying to yourself, so Damien's done. 330, 335, he's done. Unfortunately, he's not done. Damien is going to be scooped up and taken to the hospital. And some point over the next hour this is gonna happen. But as he's leaving the hospital, a very interesting thing happens at the West Memphis Police Department that I don't think anybody expected. At three thirty six a phone call would come in and it's a phone call that haunts the case to this very day. Well it's more of a I don't want to tell three T it's what I'm doing. Yeah. So it turns out Damien is not the only person who the police can argue quote unquote confessed that day, whether it was a tacit confession or that he knew all the information. We have somebody calling the West Memphis PD and saying, I'm the one that killed them three kids, what you gonna do? Clearly this was not Damien. There's no way that this is Damien Eccles. He is in the police department at the time that phone call comes into dispatch. Yeah, getting ready to get into a squad car to go over to the hospital to give sexual assault kit samples to the West Memphis PD. And we know that he's with them because we have the chain of custody form for that sexual assault kit from the hospital being handed to the West Memphis PD, which undoubtedly was handed right after he had given those samples. Right. So he leaves Detective Durham around 335. He has agreed and signed a form to have his biological samples taken. We do not know exactly what time he left. What we do know is that he was transported by Officer Birch to the hospital. It was the Crittenden Memorial Hospital at that time. It has a different name now, which was approximately four to five minute drive from the West Memphis Police Department. Damien gave samples which would include saliva, blood, and then hair, both from his head and pubic area. And those were taken by a nurse under the supervision of a physician. And then those samples are sealed and put into an envelope and given to officer Birch at the hospital. And the date and the time on that evidence collection kit when it was received from Nurse Warner to Officer Birch is May the 10th, 1993 at 455 p.m. So Birch would have been coming back to the West Memphis PD, not only with the sexual assault kit, but with Damien also. Correct. And so we know the time that Damien is returning back to the West Memphis PD. So now Damien should be free to go, right? No, he's still not free to go. This is one of those nights that just kind of never ends. And we'll have to cover what becomes of Damien in the next episode. So while Damien is waiting for these biological samples to be taken. Yet another chilling event happens. A tip comes in at four five, and this is not the anonymous person calling and taking credit for these murders, but somebody else is calling another anonymous phone call, and we're gonna read that tip right now. On May the tenth, nineteen ninety three, at four. Who stated she had overheard that a Dominic and Damien killed the three little boys and that LG, last name unknown, took and laundered their clothing. Coller stated that Damien had body parts with a box from the children. The collar stated she didn't want to give her name and that she heard that LG's mother was going to lie about LG's whereabouts. So as if the situation couldn't get any worse for Damien Eccles, it does. He has just admitted to the police department that he has been at the laundromat on May the fifth, the night that the boys went missing. And somebody is calling in saying, LG Hollingsworth, a good friend of Damian Eccles, has taken his clothes and laundered his clothes after murdering the boys, and that Damien has a box of body parts with him. This is an absolute nightmare that is unfolding in real time in Damien's life. Now Damien doesn't know this tip has come in, but West Memphis PD is already acting on a previous tip that came in on May 9th, that one coming from Gnarling Hollingsworth. Because in the next room over, while Damien is being interviewed, LG Hollingsworth was being interviewed by Ridge also. Yes. So this tip looks really bad for Damien as well as LG. So I'm sure the police are now wondering, are these the two guys that committed this crime? Yeah. And is this box the evidence that they're looking for? They need to find this box if it exists. And that's what we're gonna get to in the next episode. We're gonna talk about LG Hollingsworth and his connection to this case and how he became a suspect. And Damien's day isn't even over. Yeah, the day that never ends. If you want to join the discussion, we strongly encourage you to contribute to the case by following Crooked Tree Pot on Facebook, on X, or to follow us on YouTube. Next time on Crooked Tree. Darlene, do you remember Detective Badge and Diane Hedge coming to talk you? Coming to talk to me on one or other. Yes. Alright. And did you get a tape reporting to him? Yes, I did. And was that on May the 10th? I think it was. You had a lot of conversations with me over the telephone, isn't that right? Yes, right. Alright. And isn't it true, Norlene, that you've not told me anything about Jesse? My question is at all.