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Mishlei 26:4-5 - To Answer or Not to Answer a Fool According to His Foolishness (Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, we're finally back.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_10: Mishle 26, 4 through 5, famous pair of Psukim.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_10: What's the translation here?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_10: Don't answer a fool according uh yeah, let's say both.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_10: Like or uh sorry, let's let's go like this.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_10: Like or according to his foolishness.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, lest you uh yeah, two, I'm gonna just put the two there, be equated with him, alright, like Shave.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_10: And then an exil kivato pen yeah cha mein up.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, lest he be uh we can use it as an adjective here uh adjective here, uh lest he be wise in his own eyes.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_07: Meaning that he won't be a he's not gonna bring him from something alcohol, but just like his attribute or uh yeah, I mean, I guess that's gonna be part of the question, right?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_10: But uh yeah.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_10: Um but yeah, he's thinking of himself as a fachum.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so let's go through our minimalist muparsim and uh stuff.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_10: So we got Matsus Sion who says Ta'an is Miloshan Anya Utoshuva, so it means to answer, respond, and then Tishva is Miloshan Hashva of Dimion.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_10: Uh so uh equation and um similarity.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_10: So I guess the one thing you see from here is it's not does not mean like he will less it doesn't mean you will be like exactly identical with him, it just means like similar.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_10: All right.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_10: All right, so we got the topsier.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_10: I kind of went overboard again with the um with Claude.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_10: Um Claude just apparently knows more Judaic, uh uh Judeo-Arabic than I uh than you know than than I do.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_10: No, no, then uh then I realize.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_10: So so Claude translated the topsir as do not answer the ignorant man according to his folly um in that which is reprehensible, such that you would be equal to him, you too.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_10: Rather, answer him accord uh concerning his folly in that which you fear that he will be wise in his own estimation.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_10: So you can see Sidagun is actually like modifying stuff here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_10: Let's do Kafak, and then I had Claude um uh comment on stuff.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_10: So Kafak says, uh in here, Al taan eshaxil kfi kalus daito.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, according to his uh light-mindedness frivolity, however you want to translate Khalas das.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_10: In that in which there is a concern that you be equal to him.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_10: Um he's basically treating the he's adding a qualifier, right?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_10: Um, and also the kalostasting.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_10: That seems to be the main part.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_10: And then the Navishalom says, um uh pentishve.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I guess that's the Arabic here.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_10: You know, Altan Ksil, Al Kharu Kherufav Bidvarin Magunim.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_10: Now that seems very different.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_10: Remember, Navishal is trying to explain Sadigon here, right?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_10: But uh don't answer the Ksil, don't answer his um insults with right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_10: Uh you know, I mean Makar from Baghadiv is like blasphemy, but I think with people it's uh insult or shame, shamefulnesses in in despicable matters or degrading matters.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_10: Shabizet Tishvelogam Ata Big Nus.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_10: So it sounds like he's saying like, don't speak word like degrading insults back like he does, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_10: So very different than seemingly very different than Khakh.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_10: Um so I guess these are two legitimate interpretations of the Arabic here.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_10: Uh we'll see what Claude does.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and then anixil, um, what did I read?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Shibizet Tishvelogam Ata Bikinus, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_10: Anixil about Roy Sha Tishivehu al Sichhluso Bamesh tahush she yeah bina'atmo.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_10: Um right, so that's that's pretty much the same.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_10: So then here's what intrigued me.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_10: And I think I'd seen this before, but whenever I asked um Claude to translate the Judea Arabic of Ksil, it would translate as ignorant man, and I wasn't sure if that was like just like a baseless thing.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_10: So Claude says uh on the word Al-Jaleel, Jahil, the active part of participle of the root jahal, whose basic sense is not to know.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_10: So the straightforward meaning is the ignorant one, which is why I chose it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_10: The root carries a second sense in classical Arabic that matters for this possible.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_10: Jahal is often contrasted not with knowledge, uhum, but with forbearance, meaning like um patience or uh holding back from being impulsive.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and in that pairing, Jahil is the person who is rash, hot-tempered, and lacks self-restraint, the one who flares up in response to provocation in kind.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Gold Ziher, don't know who that is, made this contrast famous in his discussion of the term Zahiliya, and it is well attested in early Arabic usage.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_10: Since 26-4 is about whether to answer someone in kind, that sense is live here, and ignorant captures only half of it.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_10: So that's an interesting commentary because I guess that might be why um who did it?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah, by why the Niveshalam mentions um like he's insulting you, you know, like um, so it's another again, ignorant, still ignorant doesn't, I mean, Claude itself says that ignorant doesn't really capture it.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_10: Um, two points of comparison that you from what you pasted, Kafik renders the puzzle's own word.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_10: Uh he just uses Xil, treating simply as Sadigon's equivalent of Xil.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_10: So there is an argument for just treating it as Xil.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_10: And then in Judeo-Arabic philosophical prose more broadly, like the More, Jahil is the standard word for the ignorant person as opposed to the knower without the temperamental overtone.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_10: Um see, this is how I feel like the more I use Claude for both the More and for Sadigon.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, and by the way, I've started doing um when I use Sadigon's Perush, I do have it translated based on the Judeo-Arabic as well.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_10: Um, and I also encourage you, um, if you like rehearsh, uh, Alatora has the German.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so what I do now when I do rehearsh is I have Claude prepare a translation of the German, the Judaica press English on Alatora, and then the new translation and the Hebrew translation.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and it often points out stuff that's like, you know, that like you know, translators like add or whatever.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_10: All right.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_10: Um, if you want a random one that keeps both senses of view, the ignorant man could stand in with a second.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_10: All right, that's other stuff.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_10: All right, fine.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_10: All right, so that's Sadigon.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_10: And then the Targum.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_10: So this is another thing that the Claude had what to say about it.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, it doesn't say it here.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_10: I didn't copy, I guess.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_10: Lo Tital Pisgama Lasichla.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, do not raise a word to the fool.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Hichhat Yusa, according to his stuus, de lo tidme le afant, so that you also don't resemble him.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_10: So it said raise a word is the literal transition translation of tatalpisgama.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_10: It is interesting that it doesn't just use the uh equivalent of ane.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_10: So it does sound like the targets trying to do something.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_10: I don't really know what.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_10: Ella Malel, see it uses a different word here, speak.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_10: Imshatia bhakimusa, the low nisper banafte dechimahu.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so that he will not think of himself as wise.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_10: Now, what what do you see?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_10: What's the main move that the Targom is making?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_10: It's a very interesting move here to resolve the stira.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_10: Uh that's also true.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_10: Uh right.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_10: It adds uh it adds that.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_10: That's true.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_10: I think the keyword is Ella, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_10: Because in the Psukium, it just says don't answer and answer.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_10: And uh spoiler alert, like a lot of the Mufarsum are gonna say, in this context you should, in this context you shouldn't.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_10: But he's saying, Don't do this, instead do this, which is in the same scenario, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_10: So that's like a that's a real move that the Targum is making here.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, art scroll, do not answer a fool according to his foolishness, lest you also be considered like him, answer a fool according to his foolishness, lest you be wise in his eyes.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_10: All right, fine.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_10: Rehearse, do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also should be like him, but answer a fool as his folly deserves.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_10: So that's another um uh taking a stance on on um uh ki Valto.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and then do not answer a dult by his folly, lest you two be like him, answer the adult by his folly, lest he seem wise as on us.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, let me just grab the Pussuk to bring it down here.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_10: Uh oopsies.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so we already have kind of like implicitly raised a bunch of questions here, but uh um the the the biggest one being yeah um and you guys know the Gemara I was referring to in the shear description?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, right.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_10: So I think it's uh I think I got the right thing.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_10: Let's just read it.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, Shabbas uh I highlighted it.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_10: Look how responsible I am.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_10: The afse for Mishle Bikru Lig.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_10: So this is in in Bikhrim Lignos stuff, like they wanted to put it in Geniza.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_10: So Shabbos stuff lama base.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_10: Because the its words contradicted one another.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_10: We'll read it now.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_10: Why did they not um put it in Geneza?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_10: Amri Sefer Kohelis Love Aininan Vashkahinan Tama.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_10: So did we not look in Sefer Kohelis uh into its contents and find uh rationale, an explanation?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_10: So here too you should look into it and resolve the contradiction.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_10: Who would have thought that that's the approach you take in resolving steers in uh in Tanakh?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Umaid Divrav Soon says this.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_10: So what what are the its words contradict one another?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_10: Ksiv Altanksiobalto, Uksiv Aniksiel kibato.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, and then uh spoiler alert, Lokasha, Habatibri Torah Habmel Dalmah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, that that's its answer.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_10: But again, we'll see that the Mufarsim don't really like just unanimously just go with what the Gemara says.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_10: So it says it's not a difficulty, this is in words of Torah, this is in things in general.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_11: Which is right.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_10: That's a good that we have to uh think about, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_10: Um you could probably guess if you if you think of it a little more.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_10: Um, yeah, but uh I was gonna say one more thing about this, which is um if we have time, I do want to analyze the Gemara, but for our purposes, let's just treat it uh the way we usually treat it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh like there's questions like I don't know, did does this bother you, the Gemara itself?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_10: Like not the answer, but like just the question.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_10: Well, like what's bothersome about it?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, obviously, show us the funny questions you can have of Khamish.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, right.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_10: So one problem is stira, if if stirras in Tukim is something that we have Yeah, like Khumish itself and like it it it's weird to treat this as a unique problem to Michle, you know.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_10: Furthermore, I don't think Michle contradicts itself a whole lot.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_10: Like if I ask you, come up, if you ask me, come up with other examples of Michle stiras, certainly none that are like this, that are just so blatant, you know.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_10: Um, and maybe if not none, maybe a handful.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_10: It's not like it is like Kohelis contradicts itself all the time because he's expressing true ideas and false ideas, you know.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_10: Um, you could argue Eov uh, you know, has Steas, even those different like um speakers, but like it's just it's a weird problem to uh to like fixate on in Mishle, and it's weird to not fixate on in other areas.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_10: So if we have time, I'd like to look into that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_10: But uh yeah, okay.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_10: Um okay, so what are our uh other uh questions?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_10: So I guess stira, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_10: So I guess the question is gonna be um uh uh you know uh yeah, how do we resolve it?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_10: Um and I guess like just I'm just kind of bringing the um uh the Targum versus like the Gemara, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_10: Um does each uh husuk apply to a different uh circumstance um or uh are both meant to address the same uh scenario?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, Isaiah?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um being compared to him, like compared by whom and in what way?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, right.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_10: So um regarding Tishve Low, um uh so in what sense would you be equated to him?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_10: And then I think it's a separate question of who is doing this equating.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, Mosha?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um and if the first person says that so you unless you become full like him, is it that be equated to him?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: Is it that like you will objectly become a little bit of a couple of things?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_10: So like when you think that objectly Okay, right, yeah, I think I'm gonna put this question here, which is um uh likewise um uh is this equation uh actually I guess these two questions are kind of premised on different things, but is this equation objective or in perception only, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh and then I guess if the latter, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_10: I'm gonna just merge these.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_10: If the latter, who is doing this equating?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and if it's the former, then it's not anyone doing it.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: What did the XL say to you respond to?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, right.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_10: What did the XIL say to you uh or just say in general, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_10: Uh uh I guess, or to someone else, or just say in general, um that you are responding to.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, Isaiah?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, also what does it mean to answer him in his polishness?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like what would you be saying?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_10: What so practically speaking, um what does it mean to uh uh answer kit evolto?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_10: Um what would you be saying?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, I'm gonna just put the what is the cough, right?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_10: So you've got at least how many ways we translated the cough here, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_10: One is like another is in accordance with is there a third?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, like meaning let's say, like for example, rehearsed said such as his folly deserves, um uh which is not like, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_10: It's uh in accordance with I want to say something else for now.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, and then what what what would you what what what are you saying that is to Eva Alto?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_10: Uh yeah, Isaac.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: This might be a sub-question of question one.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: But what what are we to make of the fact that uh the um the actions described here are written in a way that's maximally contradictory?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just that Right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, I I think that that that warrants its own uh question, but we we will flag as a stylistic question is that yeah, yeah, what do we make of the fact that the psukim, I'm sorry, that the psukim are I'm gonna put it this way, written or editorially paired, um uh so as to seem uh so as to as to present as a stira, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and I say editorially written because obviously proverbs are standalone, and like these are not even the ones that Shlomo wrote, these are Anch Khiskahu, etc.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_10: So like maybe they they paired it this way.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_10: Um that's what Alter, what Robert Alter says, by the way.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_10: But yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible that um I know you're saying editorially paired?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible this was one mushle as opposed to two?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it is possible.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, and it seems like the um Targum would be you know uh a candidate for that, even though he might not be necessarily saying that, but yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, Debbie.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you care what the XIL thinks of himself?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_10: Right, okay, good.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_10: Uh why why should we care what the KXIL, uh, or I guess how the XIL thinks of himself, um thinks of himself, right?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_10: Let him think he's a Ha-am.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: He also seems to be the type of personality that's very much believes that what he thinks is correct.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't seem to be so flexible and open to you changing his mind on that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_10: So I'm gonna I'm gonna express that slightly differently in a way that is just more um connected to this, which is moreover, isn't that his default state?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_10: Right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_10: Like, you know, you it it's not like it's not like he didn't think of himself as a cham, um sorry, as a cha-ham, and now uh because you uh answered him, uh didn't answer, uh because you didn't answer him, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_10: Um he he thinks uh he thinks of himself that way, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_10: Uh in other words, like this might not like pen yihi echalm de anov, how much causally are you responsible for that result?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_10: You know, and and and and I guess also uh moreover, um maybe this is what you're asking also, David, is that um even if you do respond to him, will that change the way he sees himself?
• 18:17
  unknown: Right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_10: Like will he not see himself as a cock?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, uh Ellie, board.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_11: Yeah, um, so I guess not to get too much into the realm of analysis, but um, it kind of reminds me a lot of the Pure Kavos about like teaching a student according to his ways, but this seems to be kind of preaching the opposite.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_11: Like if you have someone who's so foolish or beyond a lost cause, don't even bother.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_11: Or or just you know, it would be counterproductive to teach.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so I I can I can convert that into a question.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_10: By the way, when you say Pyrkeavos, are you uh I don't know which Mishnah Pierkayavos, I'm thinking of Mishlay of Khanana R.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_10: Alp Darko.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_10: Um, but I don't know if you're thinking of a separate Pyrkeavos.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_11: Maybe I'd have to, I'd have to look.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_11: But I guess the question I'd ask is like, what does like is this a to teach us something about education or how you teach?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so this is an example of where Rabbi Moskowitz's question that he always forces us to ask is good, which is what is the subject of this PUSUC, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_10: So is uh is this about uh education or about dealing with fools, or about like um uh I guess like uh training a fool, or about you know, uh uh I guess uh dealing with perceptions, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, again, it's you are equated, could be read as a perception, and then he views himself, you know, or something else.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_10: So uh and the reason why I say this is the Rabbi Mosquitz um question is because depending on what you assume that the puzzle is talking about, you'll uh you'll frame it differently.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_10: And I'll give the same example I always give.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_10: Um where's the Ari Bahutz Pasuk?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_10: Anyone remember what park that's in?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_10: I feel like it's in the 20s.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Ari uh Amr Atsel Ari Bahutz Brochovos Eratseach.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_10: Um I can't find it, whatever.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh I know I can uh find it in other ways, but um uh the lazy person says that there's a lion in the street.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's not in the 20s, because I don't think I did it, which I think me to did in Monday night Michelle.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_10: All right, let's just look at it up here.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_10: So there's once and for all by using a search engine.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_10: Um so uh the lazy person says there's a lion in the streets.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_10: Uh uh, sorry, there's a lion um in the squares.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_10: I'll get murdered in the streets, slaughtered in the streets.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_10: Um taking a long time.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_10: Um 2213.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_10: Why didn't it show up?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_10: Did I just knock out that far?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_10: Did I misspell something?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, 2213.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so it is in the 20s.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_10: Um so I think if you read this, you would assume that it's a puzzle about laziness.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but I remember the first time that I learned it with Ryan Moskowitz, he learned it that the subject was about rationalizing emotions and laziness was just the example.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_10: And I was like, oh, so not every puzzle is the subject that it seems, and depending on how you learn it, it could have different uh um, you know, it could differ have different applications.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_10: Another person we've seen do this, by the way, a lot is our new friend.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_10: I guess he's not new anymore, uh, but our uh our good friend uh Rafesh Binitzka Gurondi, uh, who learns the Psukim in um sequence, that many times the sequence, the the effort to learn it in sequence will cause him to define the subject based on the cluster, not based on the individual puzzle, and then you get new ideas out of it.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_10: So I think that's just a good methodology point.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, that's a good question.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_10: Also, I'm gonna place this one next to the keyvalto here.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_10: Is what is the alternative to Ania Keivalto?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh is it uh um not answering him at all, or is it answering him in a different way?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_10: Right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_10: So let's say again with a Targum, uh it seems to be saying you should answer.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_10: Him in a different way, not kivalto.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, although it's funny because how did it deal with the kivalto here?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_10: Right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_10: It didn't just reverse it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_10: Elamalo Imshati Bakakimusah, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_10: Just totally uh uh not erased, but like in the Hebrew, kiiva to appears in both, and here it just replaced it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_10: So, right?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_10: So that's taking a firm stance on this question.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_10: Oh thought the thoughts meaning not a thought yet.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but are we talking about that?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_06: No, no, not.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_10: I don't think so.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, that's why I got thrown off.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I I want to add one more question here.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_10: Um, on to the what happens if he thinks he's a call, or why do we care?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_10: Uh where do we say?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_10: Why oh yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_10: Um I guess the question is, is there a consequence to you?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_10: Or do we care about the consequence to him?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_10: Actually, I'm just thinking this is a separate question here.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_10: Is who cares?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_10: Uh furthermore, who cares?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_10: Uh is there a consequence to you, or do we care about the consequence to him or to others, right?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_10: Like if he views himself as a call and it'll influence others.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_08: Also, I guess what I was saying, but in terms of the alternative, is there a positive to be in here, or are we just like avoiding this negative thing here?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, okay, right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so I'll put this here, which is um that uh likewise, is there a positive result uh in this mislead decision?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_10: Uh or is this all about you know damage control in some way?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_10: It does not say any positives.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_08: Also, I guess right there one, but is there a relationship between the two consequences of the two circum?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_08: Like are there just two really different like concerns in the situations or like the two opposites?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh I'm actually gonna put this over here, all right, which is that um uh are the two uh consequences um intended to be read in the same vein?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_10: Like i.e.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_10: do we care about them for the same reason or are or is is each one I don't know how to say it exactly, but I think it captures it somehow.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_10: Um I also want to know uh what the gom does.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_10: It feels like the gom is not necessary, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_10: Like pentishvelo ata or pentishvelo would would would convey it, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_10: So what's the gom atta adding?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_10: And I'm gonna put that as a stylistic question.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_10: What is added by the gom atta?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh it would seem to be offici uh uh sufficient to just say uh pen tishve low.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_10: Um that it uh one question also that um we we will ask for the next couple months, um uh which is um does the local cluster uh affect our reading and how, right?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_10: Because if you look at the local cluster, uh we had uh this is not the right parak.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_10: Um we had low nav xil kavod.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_10: That's about Xiel.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_10: Then we had this Katipur La Nud Kadr Lauf Ken Kilas Kinam Lo Tavo, which is not explicitly about Xiel, but some learned that shot meseglachamor Veshevit L gave Xilim.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_10: Then you've got actually let's just do a little uh Xiel.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_10: Uh right, so you've got um a lot.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_10: Look 53.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I guess that's in the commentaries also.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_10: Um, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, um, twelve.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_10: So I guess the this is clearly a local cluster about Xilim.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_10: So is that just the topic, or is there a more like localized one?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_10: Like again, we had in Gimel, seems to be about how to affect the XEL, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_10: Or whether you can affect the XEL.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so how do we how do we take it?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, uh, Avi?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, this might be included in the question of what key thaltow is, but uh what exactly is the foolishness of the Xil?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_10: Oh yeah, right.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_10: Um what is, yeah, let me put this Evalto, yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_10: So um what is the Evelis uh of the Xil?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_10: And in case anyone's wondering, um uh there the uh even though Eveel is its own Mishlaic fool, um for some reason Shlomo uses evelus for the the Xil's type of foolishness.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_10: Um I think there's only maybe one or two person that say Xilus, uh, but it that's not the typical word that he uses.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_10: Most of them are uh uh Xil Evelus pairing.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, I I feel like we got most, if not all the questions.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so you had uh spots.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_06: There's actually been spot number shearing the spot.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_10: Is it in the uh purpose of Civic Cohenis?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, okay.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know, it's one of those like a big micro.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but so the idea is let's say there's the situation where Phil is questioning it.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, like questioning your idea is the marijuana, he was questioning the tour.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_06: So I think the problem is how do you respond to it?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_06: So I guess one thing you could do is answer him with the truth.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: Like if he's questioning you, he has already got sort of a framework with the truth.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_06: And you could give him like a true answer, but the problem is that he's in a like a totally different framework than you are.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_06: So in his framework, he may not understand your answer.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_06: He may think that you just don't have a good answer because that's not consider himself clapping because you couldn't give him a good answer to this question.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, so then you might say, Oh, so then you should just answer him within his own framework, you can get it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_06: At the same time, that's not true.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_06: So I don't know exactly like when you should do which one.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but on one hand, you don't want to go into his framework because it's a default framework, yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_06: It's foolish.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_06: On the other hand, if you don't go into his framework, he's gonna think that like he beat you and now he disappeared.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so key voltage means in his foolish framework, right?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_10: That's how you're taking it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so let's see.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_10: Key evolto uh means uh in his foolish framework.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_10: And the scenario is where he uh where where the Kasil thinks he has a valid um uh Kasha on on Torah, right?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_10: So you could be anything, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_10: It could be anything, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_10: I guess uh or or anything that that matters, I guess, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, yeah, um, right.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_10: You're not gonna try to refute him on his views on some reality TV show or whatever, you know.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_10: Um so um so the thing is is you might think that you should give him a uh uh you know the the clearest, truest, most accurate answer.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_10: But the problem is that because he has a foolish framework, uh we should come up with an example for this, by the way.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_10: Um he might not get it and think you don't have an answer.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I feel like there's a good example of this.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_10: You have one, Isaac, or that you have a different idea.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: I have an example, but um could um No, I was gonna ask you to pause the cording, but um, I think it's fine.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I was having a conversation with a coworker, uh, a non-Jewish coworker who um uh um about the role of woman in Halacha.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a very I was gonna use another example of this from last night also, yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_10: Go ahead.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is a this is a very like um as a liberal leaning woman who um um there was a there was a delicate balancing act of um trying to answer her questions without um without making Torah look really bad, but also the issue was that her framework was wrong.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_10: Right, right.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_10: So yeah, let's uh I'm gonna broaden that slightly, but like uh I'll use an example, but um uh people having problems with Torah uh based on modern secular values, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_10: Like uh you know, um uh let's say egalitarianism um uh or like political uh leanings, um uh and not having the proper uh framework for what halacha is or how it works.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, the example that came up last night is uh you know, this question gets asked every once in a while of like, why do men say shlosani isha, you know, and women don't say shlosani ish, you know, and like uh as I was answering it, then I was like, or someone actually actually started with a question of um when a woman is in shul and hears a man say shlosani isha, then why is she say amen, you know?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and like, you know, like the there was I was it was a even though I've answered it before, like a lot of premises that could be the source of the question, you know.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_10: So yeah, yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_10: Um okay, good.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_10: So so that is that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, but then the other problem is uh so then, sorry, oops, so then you might think, sorry, you might think that you should answer him uh within his uh foolish framework.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_10: But the problem there is that now uh so this is for the um uh pentish velogam ata, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_10: So so did you say what the problem is?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, there have to be personal right.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_10: The most direct one probably is that that it's a distorted answer, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_10: Uh so at the very least, he's not gonna get the truth, even if you're like preventing him from thinking he's wise, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_10: And then if there are I do think that Pen Titwe Logangata sounds like there's other people in consideration, is that they're gonna think that you know, that this is Torah as well.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_10: And Titwe Logangata, I think the most direct one is they're going to assume that since you're relying on his framework, then you're accepting it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, right.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_10: So the problem there is that that people might assume that you endorse his framework.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_10: Uh let me give probably one of the most famous examples uh having to do with the Rom Bomb.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_10: Where did this happen with the Rombom?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_06: Where Aristotle, yeah, how he accepted both of Aristotle's premises in order to prove things.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, he wants to believe in the world.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_06: He turned off the right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_10: Now, I I'm not saying that Aristotle was a fool, but like that phenomenon of of assuming that because you are answering based on a framework, then you accept the framework.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_10: So, uh example is that uh Rom, what was it?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_09: Is that is that that he didn't really accept the framework for his argument within it, or accepted part of the framework?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_10: So my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Rombaum endeavored um to prove uh certain um uh propositions um on the assumption that the universe was eternal, okay, uh because uh like Aristotle, um uh because he wanted to show that even if you hold by eternalism, uh then you must say uh you must reach this conclusion, okay.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_10: Uh but people then erroneously uh assumed that he was endorsing Aristotelian eternalism.
• 34:35
  unknown: Oh, right.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_10: Uh right.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_10: And then that's when you got all the what I call the you know uh conspiracy theories, right?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_10: That he was a closet eternalist and you know all that stuff.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_10: Uh so again, not that Aristotle's a fool, but but that's uh it's the the same problem here, right?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so then then now the question is so what should you do?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_10: Right and and and is the puzzle telling you, right?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_08: Um is there an idea?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_08: Oh no, no, I want to answer this.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_08: It kind of reminds me of like a Khazal spoken.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_08: Like uh I think that's kind of why I think it's if if you just if they just said the idea is pure like don't have the framework.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_10: In fact, in fact, um let's if we want uh Rabbi Zumir was um was trying to convince me, not that I didn't want to be convinced, I I I agree with him, trying to convince me that I should learn Kohelas with the Ramam's Perush, which is you know, which is like looking how the Ram uses it, uh, which I think is a good move uh in general about learning, you know, Tanakh.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_10: But anyone know where the Ramam uh invokes this uh puzzig?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_10: It's a shocking place.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_10: I mean you can see it's in the Perish Mishnahs, but whom?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_06: Um about the three groups, um ish.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I'm gonna maybe it's not wise for me to pull this out of context, but we're gonna do it.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_10: Uh yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, by the way, I I know I announced this in my discussion chat, um, but since not everyone is on the discussion chat, um Alatora now has the practical Talmud dictionary and Jastro all hooked up, and it's even with non-Talma stuff.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_10: So you could click, for example, on let's just go with uh Nechlaku.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_10: And oh, and the Ben Yehuda dictionary also.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_10: And uh it'll just give you the dictionary.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_10: And for the Tomwood, it'll give you uh do I still have the Tomlet open here?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_10: Give you the oh, here we go.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_10: Uh uh let's go, Tima, right?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_10: Uh practical Tom Dictionary, Jastro, Ben Yehuda dictionary, the Aruch.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_10: Um, and it'll have all the entries.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_10: So it's just so, so useful.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_10: Game changer on many levels.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_10: Um just popping up.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_10: Oh yeah, that's funny.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_10: That's funny.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_10: I haven't had that, I haven't had that problem, but uh oh yeah, I haven't I don't really use it on the phone so much.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_10: All right, anyway, so uh uh Kit Evolto.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_10: Right, so he's so he's talking about Lishma and Shalishma, and he's talking about how um you know Lishmah is In Taklis MS El Ladashu MS.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh hold on.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna tell Lishma stupid because there's no purpose for it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_10: Uh so he says, so after saying in Taklis MS Ladashu MS, uh he says, Maguna, all of this is despicable.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_10: You know, there's the kid with the candy and the clothing and the money and the covot, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_10: Uh all this is despicable.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_10: Uh but it's necessary because of the kalus das of a person, um, which by the way, uh I have been mean to write up my Nashim Daitan Kalos Alehan uh article from the old, old blog.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but people always quote that to mean that women have inferior intellects.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_10: But if you look through the way that Khazal use call uh das being call, it refers to psychological impressionability in certain contexts.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_10: And this is a good example of that, is that it's not that people who learn for covot are not intelligent, it's that that humans, the human psyche um makes takis lumid dovr akarkutz w the the purpose of learning something other than the learning.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_10: Um Vyomar Madulomid ani et ha limud hazeah, and they say, why should I learn this?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_10: Ella k de laha sigbo hazaiabamis, uh but just in order to achieve some fantasy.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_10: That's what um the khami mean by shlolishmah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_10: That a person fulfills the mitvos and does them and learns and strives not for the thing itself, but for something else.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_10: Romzim, uh lamashabi, lakashloy takhlishi loshi chabdubne adov, low reason.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_10: Um, this is alluding to what I told you that you shouldn't make the purpose of learning uh that people should honor you or uh the uh receiving getting money.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_10: Uh al-yasit torsus and parnasa, you shouldn't make the torvishem into a parnas of alihe etzlot takhlislimat ali diyas of the vodka.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_10: The only purpose of learning should be uh knowing it uh alone.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh and that's that puzzling line.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_10: And the there's no purpose of truth other than to know that it is true, and the mitzvs are true, and therefore their purpose is their fulfillment.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, the usr l'adam hashalim, it's usr for a person who's perfected, Shiyomar, you love God loves those perfection.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_10: Um uh sisi lo eluatovos vinimnatam ilo haros, shihizyashem, but mehi gmuli.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_10: It's usar for perfected person say if I do these good things and I refrain from these bad things that Hachem warn me about, what's my reward gonna be?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_10: That's like a uh kid who says, if I learn, what do you give me?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_10: Uh such and such, shakashera inu koser dato.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_10: Because when we see his deficient uh psyche, inu maybe that he doesn't uh uh understand the worth of this thing of the of the Torah, umavakesh letakhlis takhlis, he's looking for a purpose for the purpose.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_10: We answer him according to the the the worth or the quality of his foolishness, answer a fool according to his foolishness.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_10: Um and uh Uqvarki's Hiran u Khacham Gam Alza Klomarlo Yasim Adam Takhli.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, and he goes into more stuff there.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_10: Uh does he say this twice?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_10: Hold on.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_10: Uh yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Vaharaya.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_10: How far away was this?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_10: So this is also about um the what do you call it?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_10: Uh ultimate reward, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Vaharaya Shal Omarlo S MS Mashalama Altan Kazil Kivalto.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_10: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, by this is talking about people um about chazal like um stoking people's fantasy.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_10: This is where I got here from the Agata, right?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_10: It was like like uh Asida Irti Sol Lohoti Glus Kaosu Klee Melos that Israel is gonna in the future produce like ready-made uh bread and and and garments, uh Lafish, Derekman, Adam Lamara, Kashir.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, fine.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_10: So Khazal allowed people to think of ultimate rewards and other rewards in fantastical ways, um, based on this.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_10: Although he's saying here, okay, maybe I should look into the context here.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, but anyway, but I do agree with you that the chazal did this as well.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_10: And you see when they do this for the NAR.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, all right, sorry, that was a long tangent, but it was a worthwhile one.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_08: Um not respond because anything is a compliment, he thinks he's right.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_10: We have to answer this, right, right.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_10: So what are you supposed to do then?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_09: I mean, it could be that like he's putting both circulates to each other because really it's not like like I guess it's that you really just have to like the facts and situations can play a role.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_09: So in each situation, you have to be a pop-up and figure out what's the best right.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_09: Okay, so both of the what's it called of the rest.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_09: And I think the question is what is your focus?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_09: Like in the first pass of the token, the issue is uh um everyone else.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_09: Meaning if you answer in the same way, you're really gonna um you're gonna what's called, you're gonna distort the idea of everyone else.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_09: But the second one, if you like, um if you don't answer, um, if you don't give him an appropriate answer for him, then he's gonna like reject it.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_09: So it's almost like a question of can we reach this guy?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_09: And wait against where to everyone else is gonna think.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_09: Because sometimes if it's just a guy who's being like antagonistic, you don't really think you're gonna get it, so you kind of have to like show him how he's full according to everyone that's a quick wrong.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_09: But if it's like a guy who you think that like the what's called the um like you were talking about the rabbam, that's someone who you think you can get to learn Torah and come to right as well.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_09: So in that situation, you have to you have to um give him an answer within his framework, right?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_09: But you're not as worried about what other people are gonna think that Torah is really for this.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_10: Correct.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_10: And just to use your example, is that you see that Hazal had no choice.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_10: They well, the one choice was they could have not written down any Agata at all, and that was that was a uh a consideration, right?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_10: That's like the um there's a masaka sofriend about uh Kusve Agados in Lahem Falak Alamaba, right?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_10: Uh my understanding that is because um they, you know, by writing these things, people are you're putting people at risk of taking them literally and then erring and then losing a Lumhaba or losing Alhamaba by rejecting Khazal, you know, but what choice did they have?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, it's the lesser of two evils that will preserve the Mysora and let people have these disorder ideas, you know.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_10: So yeah, so that's one option.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, you have another answer?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, maybe in certain situations possible, maybe it could be both.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_06: Meaning you could answer within its framework, but then also break down its framework.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, right.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so so the other possibility is is um uh perhaps you should look for both, right?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_10: Or for a little uh a way to do both.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_06: Make him satisfy the way he's thinking, but also show how there might be a problem in the whole framework he's thinking about.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_10: Right.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_10: Um we say make him satisfy in the way he's thinking, meaning within his framework, satisfying.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_10: Oh yeah, right, right, right.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_10: Satisfy him within his uh or I guess I mean I'm saying address.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_10: I satisfy sounds great to me.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_10: Address um his issue within his framework, but also show him that his framework is wrong.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and then Shlomo is expressing it this way um uh Davka to show that you can't just like uh autopilot.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know if the autopilot is the right word.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_10: Uh uh sorry, you can't just um make a um uh uh one size fits all policy.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_10: I mean this is works for Benji's answer, also, right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, okay, good, that's good.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, no, it's the word it's what it's saying.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_08: It's like you have to respond without really responding.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_08: Because the second one is saying the problem with with not just it's not really saying it's value responding, it's saying if you don't respond, it's gonna think he's right because you have right, yeah.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_08: You have to respond without actually giving it your answers because that's been distorted.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, you just have to show them that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_08: So that's what I was saying, like the bad much show is like you're saying it in a way where he knows you're not answering it in his framework, yeah.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_08: And he would he can't access your answer really that you need to.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know why this example comes up, and maybe this is not the best example, but I remember one time in a QA, um, then I think it was in a QA that someone was saying, you know, Ramam says uh in Isode Torah, when it says Hashem is Bashmine Mal areas, and one goof can't be in two places.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_10: And so someone said, Well, what if Hashem is physical and he's just really big?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_10: Right?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_10: So Rebbe said, he thought about it and he said, if he was that big, you'd see him.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_10: You know, so like that's kind of a like it's a non-response, like Rebbe is clearly saying, like, that's ridiculous, but he's you know, but yeah, it's a great answer, all right.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_10: Um, okay, uh we're we're a little over time, but yeah, Isaac, do you want to just really quickly register your uh your uh approach?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well it's not a separate approach, it's uh it's uh within the same thing.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think the uh the um um the this last line about someone is expressed in this way Dafkas that you can't just make a one-size-fit fits all policy.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's it I think that's stylistically why it's it's uh um it's a contradiction.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's no there's no footholds to say, oh, you should do in this circumstance you should do this, and in the other circumstance you should you should do that.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, that's right, that's what I meant.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_10: When I say this way, I meant as a stira.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_10: As a stira.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_10: Um right.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, good.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_10: All right, let's talk here for today.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_10: Fun, fun, fun to think about.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and again, I don't mind if this goes into next week, depending on.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, we'll see what the Mufarge, because I feel like again, this is like it's relevant to education, it's relevant to like just talking with people.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_10: Like it's uh there's a lot, there's a lot here.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_10: And it's two percent.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, that's true.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_10: We can we can justify it based on our uh our count.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, exactly.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_10: All right, see you tomorrow.