Latest / BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback / Episode 437: BOB DOLE THE LIFE THAT BROUGHT HIM THERE (Part 18) THE SENATE (A) A Mosaic of the Senate

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Episode 437: BOB DOLE THE LIFE THAT BROUGHT HIM THERE (Part 18) THE SENATE (A) A Mosaic of the Senate · BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback

• 0:25
  SPEAKER_12: But in his insistence, it's about more than Senator.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_12: And um when we're done, we hope we'll have a mosaic that will really amount almost to a history of the modern Senate, and in a still larger sense, of the political process as it has evolved since Bob Dahl came to his town in 1961, for better or worse, and that's a debatable point.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_12: Um let me begin by saying something that Senator Warner said in yesterday's post.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_12: It's interesting.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_12: I think he came to the Senate in 78.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_07: And what what year did you elected in 60?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_07: He came in 69.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_12: Okay.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_12: He talked about it's interesting.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_12: He talked about, in effect, the good old days.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_12: As he remembered them, when freshmen were seen but not heard, when you waited until your second year to give your maiden speech, and when you had a handler to sort of guide you through the initiation.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_12: Does that ring a bell with you?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_07: Somewhat true.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_07: Your maiden speech, and so you worked on it and worked on it and worked on it, and and it probably was a terrible speech.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_07: But certainly your your fellow senator from your state came.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_07: And uh but you'd always have at least uh seven or eight that would show up, you know, you're giving it in the afternoon when there's no business of any kind.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_07: You're not really commenting on the hottest issue of the day that's going on.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_07: But what I do remember the first day I got there in the parking lot, I pulled parked in the Senate courtyard, and pulling up next to me to park is Gene McCarthy.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_07: And he said, Uh, morning, Senator.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_07: You know, and I thought, Wow, he called me Senator.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_07: And uh said, I'm glad you're with us.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_07: You know he abandoned me.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_07: And it didn't it took me just a minute to understand.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_07: I beat Senator Wayne Morse.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_07: And Morse had promised to support McCarthy in 68 and had endorsed Bobby Kennedy.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_07: And McCarthy had not forgotten that.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_07: He says, You know, he abandoned me.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_07: And you know, I'm on the floor in John Stennison and Senator Packwood, good to have you with us and whatnot.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_07: It took me about eight months before I realized when they call you Senator, you'd earned it, you got there, but only when they call you by your first name have you arrived.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_07: And it uh how long did that take?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it took eight or nine months before the the seniors, I mean the younger ones called you by your first are your contemporaries.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_07: But the Russell Longs, the John Stennises, uh the uh the Allen Ellenders of that era.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_07: Uh this uh he seems to be a nice young man.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_07: We'll see how he does.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_12: And did you think about what your priorities were going to be as a freshman senator?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, your your first speech, of course, was about disabilities.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_12: Disabilities.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_12: What what prompted that?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_08: Was that just a natural in the old days?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_08: They don't do much anymore, but even even then they didn't do a lot of it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_08: I guess what, 40, 50, 60 years ago, the when your maiden speech was quite an event, you know, and you you just didn't get up the first day and pop off like they do now.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, you as long as once you walk set set foot on the Senate floor, you can get up and say anything.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_08: And the I think and even when I arrived, at least you waited a while and sort of understood where the men's room was and where the Democrats were seated, where you were seated, and all that.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_08: Uh but it was important to me, and so I thought, well, let's talk about something that you know maybe will make a difference.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_08: And I don't remember the gallery being packed or my room full of colleagues.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_08: But I did it every year after that, on that date or close to the date, depending on the Senate was in session.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_08: Um but then you know I sort of became, according to the Washington Evening Star, the old paper, I became the sheriff of the Senate for Nixon on the Vietnam War.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome everybody.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is Randall Wallace, and this is the first in what is going to be a special mini-series within the season on the United States Senate itself.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the things that you you you heard Richard Norton Smith, the historian who really did this wonderful job with these oral histories, said is that Bob Dole really wanted this to be an education on the modern day Senate uh during from his era.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we thought we'd give you a dose of it.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So over the next six episodes, we're gonna welcome you to the Senate.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're gonna you're gonna hear about the these folks when they first met Bob Dole and what it was like to first arrive in the U.S.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Senate.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about um you know, the leadership that's been in the Senate, you know, the majority leaders, minority leaders, uh how that they ran the Senate, the tools they had to operate in the Senate.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna hear um how the Senate actually works day to day um and and and how it functioned.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna hear uh um the changes that have happened over time in the United States Senate, how this body works, and then of course, some just some great stories from these senators from their time there.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, uh and finally lest I forget um the Supreme Court battles that happened during from Dole's tenure there, because uh there were some really interesting ones uh that went on.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna do shows on that, but the the one on the on the Supreme Court is something that we're gonna take that subject matter throughout Dole's tenure so that we're not doing them one at a time as we unfold the rest of the season.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is gonna be a real education for our listeners on uh how Congress itself works, because they're gonna talk a little bit about the difference between the House and the Senate, because several of them, including Bob Dole, uh actually worked in the House.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a lot of we've covered a lot of this with Bob Dole earlier in this season.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So this is gonna involve Senators uh Bob Packwood, uh Bob Dole, of course, some, uh Thad Cochran, who is a really interesting example because he was sort of a generalist and served on a lot of different committees.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll get a good feel for uh for how a lot of the Senate works in a lot of different areas just listening to him talk.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you'll hear from Dan Inoway, who would go on to be the longest serving senator, uh Trent Lott, who was the majority leader after Bob Dole, uh Tom Dashell, who was the minority leader when when uh well, while Dole was the majority leader, he was the last one he worked with, Senator Sam Nunn from Georgia, my neighboring state, who was a very a military expert, uh Howard Baker, a little bit from Tom Harkin, who was really involved with the Americans with Disabilities Act, and then uh another senator named uh Chuck Grassley, who is still in the U.S.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Senate, he's my favorite right now.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's 92 years old, still farms, and uh still gets rent.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: He came in in that famous class of 74, which was the Watergate class, um, and he served in 1980, he moved over to the U.S.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Senate, he's been there uh since 1980.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he is uh just a tremendously great guy, he was a big Bob Dole supporter.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I've followed Grassley's career a long time because in 1996 he was I mean right there for for Bob Dole.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna start listening to uh these guys as they arrive in the Senate and how they met Bob Dole and uh and the differences between the the House and the Senate.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is gonna be a fun, a fun few episodes, and then when we roll right into our timeline, we'll be in 1980 in that first presidential campaign that Bob Dole waged on his own behalf.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna start off with Bob Hackwood, who was one of Bob Dole's right-hand people.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_12: The um so you really you come into the Senate at the same time as Bob Dole?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_12: Um how did you make his acquaintance?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, I can't remember how you know that whole freshman class got to know each other pretty quick, but I can't remember how I made his acquaintance.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_12: And and you also you were, I mean, obviously from different parts of the country, but in those days there were liberal Republicans.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, there was a a liberal Republican caucus.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_07: Oh yeah, I was one of them.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_07: Uh but yes, by the time in those days, even Dick Schweiker was regarded as a liberal.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_07: He had Jack Jabitz and and you had Ed Brooke and you had Mark Hatfield.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_07: He had a f he had a fair number that were liberal.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_12: And the uh Ev Dirksen was leader uh until his death in the matter of fact, that's where Bob and I first worked quite closely together.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_07: We worked to elect Howard Baker to that position in 1969.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_07: We didn't win, but Bob and I worked together and we'd be on the phone with each other constantly.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_07: Have you talked with uh Marlo Cook and what did you get?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_07: And and you know, we're reporting back and forth to each other.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_12: Now, how much of that was generational?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_07: It was almost totally generational.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_07: Howard had only been there two and a half years or something like that, although he was the son-in-law of Everett Dirksen.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_07: But and he was much more conservative than Hugh Scott.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_07: But the older Republican conservatives could not abide the thought of somebody with only two and a half years' seniority becoming leader.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_07: And we even use the argument of Lyndon Johnson, who became the whip in just two years and became leader in four years.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_07: That didn't seem to war.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_12: That's fascinating because what you're saying is, at least then perhaps contrary to what the public might think, ideology doesn't trump generational loyalty.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_07: Philosophy, by and large, I mean, I don't know what it's like right now, but philosophy then did not trump the blood and friendship.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: Senator Howard Baker.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_12: You were in the House before you were in the Senate.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, my dad was.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: My dad was at the House.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: I never was.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_12: Um The Senate that you came into in 1967, how did that differ from the Senate?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_12: Say that you left and you're in the Senate today.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh uh honestly, I've avoided answering that question for a lot of reasons.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: One because uh I try not to second guess those who followed me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the other is in all fairness, you do not know the Senate unless you're there.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: And even though I was then out only a brief time when you speak of, uh you just don't know.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: You can lose it in a matter of weeks or months.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: The real touch, the real understanding of what the Senate's like.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I avoid trying to do that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: I I acknowledge that it would appear from outside that things are tougher now than they were and more personal and more confrontational.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I can't say that because I'm not there.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_12: Well, then describe the Senate that that you that you walked into.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the Senate I walked into in 1967 was still a Senate populated in large measure, but the the grand earls and dukes, you know, we had Dirksen, you had Mansfield, you had uh uh so many of the ones who had gone before and made such a mark for themselves, Fulbright, uh in in so many ways.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I approached the matter as the youngest member of the Senate at that time and the second most junior person in the Senate.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mark Hatfield, by the way, was number 100, I was set, and I was uh 99, and the reason was Mark stayed back for two days to continue to complete his term as governor.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I jumped him one uh one until this day we refer to each other as 99 and 100.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I stood in awe of these people who'd been there so long.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and looking back on it, honestly, I must tell you that that has a retarding effect on a new senator's ability to jump into the mainstream.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's probably less so now, but it was certainly so then.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I was pretty reverential and respectful.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember when I made, if I may, I remember when I made my maiden speech on the floor of the Senate, which all freshmen are destined to do, that I went there fully prepared, extensively prepared, carefully prepared, and uh not a soul on the floor, except uh one Democrat and my father-in-law, Senator Dirksen, who was Republican leader, and he was there out of curiosity, I think.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I spoke for 40 minutes.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: And when I finished and sat down, Dirksen came over and sat down beside me in his careful and methodical and deliberate way.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: As that wonderful resident voice is Howard.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps in the future you should guard it speaking more clearly than you think.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: That was by introduction into the Senate.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: That was the hazing, that was the uh of new members in the Senate.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_12: Now, of course, Bob Dole comes along just a couple years later.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Not much later, that's right.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_12: Did you sort of um did the younger members look out for the still younger members?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, or not really.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_12: How how were they brought into the fold?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, uh number one, Dole was not outside the fold.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: We all knew who Dole was.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and and many were surprised that he was elected.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: I was pleased that he was elected and got acquainted with him uh first off, and uh and we uh we established an early and pretty warm friendship from the beginning.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but uh no, the older members, it was more like a sophomore freshman relationship than anything else.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: You recall that sophomores were full of themselves having gone through the freshman year.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's sort of the way it was.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: But uh the Senate is a essentially a homogenous group, and notwithstanding seniority or age or prestige, it is very long before everybody is swimming in the same stream.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: And almost everybody had a different view of almost everything.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: But they developed an early in my time at least, it seems to me, they developed an early understanding that we're part of this group.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: We're part of the Senate, and that's something very special.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: We don't really understand what, but we know it is.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that continued, I think, for well, it continued until I left, actually.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure it's so now.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: But once again, I'm not there and I can't say.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_12: But you you're saying that there's a real kind of institutional loyalty to the Senate as as a body.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_12: Almost.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's not loyalty as such, but it's a recognition uh of uh it's not a family relationship, but but uh a commonality of interests and uh and and whatnot.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: But uh uh there's very little of this protecting your younger brother.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_12: Now the Republican caucus was very different.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_12: Certainly in 1967, 68, 69.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_12: It certainly was.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_12: You had a significant number of moderate and even liberal senators.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_12: Um how did how did that work?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how did it work very well?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: I did it never dawned on me that it would not be that way.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And when I got there, I was uh not surprised to find that there were a very seed significant number of liberal senators, I would call, then an even greater number of moderates or center of the road senators.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say, I haven't done a count, but I'd say that when I went there, the two, that is the liberal and the centerist Republican senators, were probably in the majority.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: But that gradually eroded and it began to go away in spades in subsequent elections.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And by the time I left, you know, the moderate Republicans are almost a vanishing breed.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that's not gonna stay.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's not gonna be the way it is.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: If the two-party system survives, as I think it will, you're gonna see a resurgence of this complex of different points of view.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh and I I think that's good.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschell.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_12: Tell me about your first contact with Bob Dole.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I'd have to say I I don't recall my first contact.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I remember coming to the Senate and almost immediately uh developing a friendship and a relationship in part because of his work on agriculture.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I was a member of the Finance Committee, and he was a very prominent member of the Finance Committee as well.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we shared committees together and we shared uh the same uh the same uh uh geographic proximity.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I my wife is from Kansas and uh was Miss Kansas and got to know Bob Dole probably before I did and had a very, very high regard for for him based on her experiences way back when.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the combination of my wife's experiences and mine on the committees uh led us to have a a friendship that uh meant a lot to me.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember when Bob and Elizabeth uh celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary, they invited a few senators to come to the reception, and uh uh they were kind enough to invite Lyndon and me.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it I thought uh was a f reflection of the kind of friendship that we had that uh lasts to uh to this day.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Senator Sam Nunn.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_11: Just an aside here, when you first come to the con uh to the Senate, uh what kind of protocol is there in terms of meeting members of the uh Republican Party?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have any well back in the time I got elected, you always uh uh met them and also you went to a lot of social functions where they were.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I first got elected, people stayed in Washington five days a week and went home if needed on the weekends, and we had recess periods where you'd go back to your home state.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: We weren't on the airplane uh every single week then.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: You'd probably go to your home state once or twice a month.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I got to know Bob Dole and um and and got to uh have the chance to know him as a person back uh when you when uh you'd have functions maybe once every two or three weeks, and you'd have four or five senators and their wives on both sides of the aisle.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you would that that sort of faded in in recent years.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: But back then you really got to know people on an individual basis, not simply on a uh debating on the floor basis.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you also uh we did uh a good bit of foreign travel back then, and we did it all always Republicans and Democrats.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when you go with someone for four or five days or a week or two weeks on a uh trip, you get to know them pretty well.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so Senator Dole and I went on um several trips together over the period of time while I was in the Senate.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Senator Alan Simpson.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just to get the calendar straight here, you came to the Senate when?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_12: In in 78.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_12: Now, Dole had been here at that point close to a decade.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_12: Did I mean do you go to to older members for guidance?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_12: Of course, you your your dad was in the Senate, so you were at it at an advantage, obviously, there.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_12: But uh how does it work in terms of newcomers being sort of assimilated into the into the institution?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_10: And it worked awfully well for our group because there were 20 of us.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_10: There were 20 brand new U.S.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_10: senators, none of us a lot of us had been legislators, a few of them.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_10: And it was a great bunch, 11 Republicans and nine Democrats, and we were very close.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_10: Uh we had the meetings together uh for for a month for about a year.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_10: Every month we'd have uh Democrat would pick the um luncheon speaker, and then Republican we had uh United Auto Workers.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_10: Levin invited him, and then Dave Broder, I invited, and Nancy Cassabaum would invite, and Byrd and Baker actually gathered us together and said, What are you doing?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_10: in those.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_10: We said, Well, we get together and talk, and they said, About what?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_10: Well, about how to answer the mail.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_10: Could none of us, you know, had ever been faced with that, how to deal with the hounding constituents who who were demanding everything, how to how to just how to how to to exist in the class on how to be a senator.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_10: No.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_10: And and so uh and and in the Senate uh were people like Jack Javitz and Mark Hatfield and Abe Ribikoff.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I'd heard of I'd heard of those people.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_10: Man, oh man, you know, these were these were big time people.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_10: And uh so you you looked up to them and uh And learn from them and ask them questions.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_10: They love that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_10: They and Howard Baker was just uh magnificence.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_10: And uh I never hesitated to uh to ask questions and say, look, I'm not here as a Republican, I'm here as a person trying to do something for the U.S.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_10: It's a sick idea, I know, but trying to do something.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_11: This is an an oral history interview with Senator Thad Cochrane of Mississippi.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_11: Uh we're in the Senator's office in Washington, D.C.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_11: And uh today is uh Tuesday, April 10th, 2007, and I'm Brian Williams.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_11: Senator, let's start with your first contact with Senator Dole.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_11: When did that occur and what were the circumstances?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: I think I first met him uh right after I was elected to Congress in 1972.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Senator Dole was serving in the U.S.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_05: Senate at that time, and um I didn't have any regular contact with him.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_05: House members are not only on the other side of the Capitol, but a freshman member of the House doesn't have an opportunity to be with senators uh very much of the time.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but I do think our paths did cross then.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: We have, of course, joint sessions of of Congress to receive important messages either from the President on the State of the Union or from foreign uh dignitaries who might visit the Congress to present a message.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I would see him on those occasions during the six years I was in the House.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_05: And then, of course, I became a lot more um better acquainted when I was elected to the Senate in 1978 and we served in the Senate for the balance of his t tenure in the Senate.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_11: Um when you first ran for office for the House, um, you were doing something that was kind of unusual for a Republican in Mississippi, is that correct?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_11: I mean, or at least uh winning as you did uh was was not customary at the time.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: Our state had not had a history of supporting Republican candidates.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and of course that came about traditionally, you know, as a result of the war between the states.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um Mississippi was considered a dependable state for the Democrats, uh always supporting Democratic nominees for president, occasionally an independent, but uh hardly ever a Republican.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_11: So what I I'm just I I want to get a little bit of this background in your own career because I think it's it's it's important and unusual.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_11: What prompted you to run as a Republican?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I was urged to do so by the local Republican Party, which was developing um some ambitions to be competitive, and we had uh seen our state vote for Barry Goldwater in 1964 pretty decisively in that election.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_05: And so the party lines were really being blurred and people really didn't have a strong sense of identity for either party uh in Mississippi.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_05: I really think Mississippi was more of an independent state than than a Democratic state.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_05: But nonetheless, uh by the time we got around to um the election of 1968, the Republicans uh asked if I would take an active role in uh the Nixon campaign uh and be a part of of a Citizens for Nixon organization.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_05: And as it turned out, I um I did that and agreed to be active in it.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um I went to um St.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: Louis, Missouri for an organizational meeting of uh citizens for for Nixon Agnew.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_05: After this was after the convention had taken place and the nominees had been selected.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: But anyway, it was because of that active involvement, the fact that uh the Nixon campaign was successful, uh, even though in Mississippi it wasn't successful at all.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_05: George Wallace carried the state running as an independent, and uh uh the Democratic candidate came in second, and Nixon was looked the poor third in the running that year.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_11: Now, Senator Dole at the time was uh the chairman of the Republican National Committee, as I recall.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh he was early on.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not sure he was in the United States.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_05: So do you make any connection between his being in charge of the party in that capacity and the growing success of Republicans in the South or uh I think it was a confluence of coincidence, really, rather than um any kind of strategical effort that uh resulted in Mississippi or my running for Congress.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_05: Trent Light and I both decided to run for Congress that year and run on the Republican ticket.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_05: And it was the first time that I guess you would say people who had been identified as Democrats or had not identified as a Republican before then were all of a sudden beginning to make decisions that the Republican Party probably was uh a party we'd be more comfortable with in the future.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_05: And um we both were successful that year.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_05: But I don't recall um being involved in terms of personal contact with Senator Dole at that time.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: I do remember coming up to Washington and meeting with President Nixon, getting a photograph made, that ended up on the front of a brochure, and um it it bec it was something that we used in terms of trying to establish an identity philosophically and uh politically with the national leadership to show that we had access, we would be able to be welcomed for visits and uh maybe represent the state more effectively in terms of getting our interests considered and taken seriously by the national government.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_05: So it was kind of an awakening of uh of uh of energy and spirit.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_05: Most of us were young, I was 34 years old.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: Trent was a couple of years younger than I.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_05: And uh we were we were elected, and I think that really just established a beginning for our modern Republican Party.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_11: Recalling those first campaigns of yours, what were the hot button issues uh in your state?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_05: Well, the Vietnam War was still a problem in terms of um people being um disappointed, you know, at how badly that had gone and uh how many people had been killed.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um we needed a new direction and a new sense of leadership with a purpose of winding up that war, getting it over with.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's an interesting parallel.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_05: You can think about the Iraq war right now, but um it was truly something that uh was a very sad and tragic time in in the history of our country.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_05: And uh we were hopeful that we'd be able to find some new answers and new ways of dealing with old problems that were becoming uh almost intractable.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_11: Did it turn out that way?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_05: It did indeed.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um Nixon and his his uh associates developed a strategy.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think uh Henry Kissinger was an important part of that process um in negotiating settlements and getting the um State Department involved.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and then after that, you know, we we could look back and say this is something that we we've got behind us now.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_05: We can look forward to working on our economy, uh the other challenges that we face to try to establish a better pattern of leadership for our country.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_11: So uh when you think about paths crossing with Senator Dole over the years that he's you were together in the Senate, what comes to mind?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_05: Well, he became uh a person I looked up to almost immediately after being elected to the Senate.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_05: I had not had an opportunity to work closely with him before, but to see him um uh working on the finance committee's legislation, which was very important, he was uh he was a true leader in that respect.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_05: And Howard Baker was our Republican leader, and I became very fond of him and um looked up to him and had a good working relationship with him and Bob Doe and and others too.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_05: We had a very uh bright and uh conscientious group of Republican senators who were providing um a great sense of confidence for us in our in our government at that time.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_05: And uh when he decided to uh seek election as uh Republican leader, of course that was a very interesting campaign and involved several senators.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_05: I think there were five or six Republicans who were in that race.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: I remember Jim McCrew and Pete D'Menici, Dick Luger, uh were all involved.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: And uh Bob Bob Dole ended up being being the leader and did a great job.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Senator George McGovern.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_12: We'll talk about Vietnam and and in in those years when Dole was just a newly arrived in the Senate, and you were clearly a national figure even before the 72 campaign, um, and there were amendments being offered.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, God deja vu, amendments being offered to to end congressional funding for the war.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_12: Dole obviously was on the other side.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, how uh did you ever discuss those?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, was your relationship at that point such that you would you you could you could talk about those things, or you just take it for granted that you're on opposite sides and uh there was no.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_09: I don't think we ever talked about it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_09: We just uh argued with each other across the aisles here.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_09: And that's the way those debates went on during the Vietnam period.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_09: I think there were some of the best debates that I experienced in my years in the uh Congress.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_09: Uh there were eloquent arguments made on both sides uh of the issue, but to the best of my memory and knowledge, I don't think Bob and I ever talked about these things privately as we did things like food assistance or agriculture or veterans' benefits, things of that kind.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_11: When you came to the Senate, did you have this mission uh in in terms of nuclear uh arrangements and so forth in mind, or did you grow into that?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, obviously the nuclear part came with knowledge and so forth as I served in the Senate, but uh I had a lot of that in mind back when I came because I'd worked on the House side, the House Armed Services Committee.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: I came from a area of Georgia where we had a very large Air Force base.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was on advisory committees and I'd worked with the U.S.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Air Force and U.S.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: military.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Fort Benning wasn't that far off with the Army.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, and my uncle had been chair of the Armed Services or the Naval Affairs Committee for a better part of 30, 30, 40 years.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: He served in the House for 50 years, Carl Vincent.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it was kind of in the blood.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to be involved in defense, I wanted to be involved in foreign policy.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I felt the armed services committee uh gave me both, and so I I was really uh very much involved in that.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'd also taken a very interesting trip back in 1962 when I was a staffer for the House Armed Services Committee.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was a young lawyer at just got a law school, and I was 24 years old, and my boss came in one day and said he had to counsel a trip with other staffers from the House and Senate that Air Force were sponsoring to tour NATO bases in in Europe.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was a three-week trip, and he said, Would you like to go?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I've never been out of the country, so I'd love to go.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I spent three weeks over there.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: I was right in the middle of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: We were briefed because all of us were top secret cleared on every step.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: We saw the photographs every day.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: We were with the Air Force in Europe.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was sitting there with the head of the U.S.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Air Force Europe in Wiesbaden for an evening meal, uh, and he had all of his equipment right back out of him.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: He told me he had less than two minutes to get all of his aircraft that were going to attack the Soviet Union, if ordered, uh, with nuclear weapons, get them off the ground because they were one-way mission, fighter planes with nuclear weapons.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the pilots would be bailing out on the way back after dropping the bombs, and the um Soviets knew that those were the first airplanes that were gonna hit them, and the first nuclear weapons that were gonna hit them, so this was a prime target.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you had to get them off the ground quickly.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: All of that made a huge impression on me, and I decided then I knew we'd come very close to a nuclear war, that I was gonna spend, if I ever had a chance, a lot of my time in the future, particularly if I ever got elected to the Congress, uh working on those issues because I felt that we were really uh uh rolling the dice with God's creation.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that was not simply war, this was of another magnitude.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we still face those problems, and I continue to be to work on it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that went back to to when I was 24 years old and uh made a huge impression on me.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_12: Let me ask you.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_12: Well, first of all anything you want.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah, let me step back because you have a reputation for being pretty candid, as does Bob Dole.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_12: Um we is one of the consequences of of of the modern media that we have fewer people who are outspoken?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, is that is that part of the price of the of the modern media and the way they cover politicians?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, anyone says we want authenticity, we want people to tell us what they really think.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_12: But then when they do it, you know, you get these dust-ups turned into more than dust-ups.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_10: I mean Well, I I saw all that change.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_10: I was a state legislator for 13 years and then Senate for 18, so 31 years of this stuff.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_10: When I started, uh, you'd meet the guy in Cheyenne from uh uh AP, the AP guy, uh great guy, Bob Lewright.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_10: Well, I'd like to why don't we sit down and have dinner?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_10: I'd like to ask you what's going on, uh, you know, what bills you're interested in, so you go to dinner, have a couple belts, and and talk very openly.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, an education bill, I think it's a piece of crap.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_10: Uh got something here I think is very worthwhile.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_10: And at the end of the of the day, uh, or a week later, you might read a report about, you know, things, whether my name was attached to it or not, but that would be valid as to making the system roll along.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_10: Maybe in in earthy ways, I would have said this is a piece of shit, which I've done before.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_10: So suddenly then, uh, I don't know what it was in the Wyoming legislature, but it began to change uh when when I said to uh uh a trusted reporter, I said, This bill is bullshit.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_10: And the headline the next day is Simpson says bill is bullshit, which is really to me was a total violation of of where we had been before.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_10: It wasn't Lee Ride, another guy.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_10: Then I got here, remember, remember the series of things that happened with Packwood when he sat with that pal of his every morning, you know, on Saturday morning, and they chatted about things, and uh and then the guy ran a whole series.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_10: Uh he did that with Stockman.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_10: That's right.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_10: But he did one with Packwood, too.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_10: Maybe he's a different guy, but here suddenly everything has shifted from confidential little sessions.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_10: Could we just sit and visit?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_10: Like with Bob Woodward.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_10: I've done those with Bob.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_10: And as far as I have observed, he's never dropped the harpoon in me, but there are people walking around looking like porcupines where old Bob has drifted the harpoon into them.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_10: And uh anyway, it all changed.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_10: And then out here, one remember Jake Garner and I were separately interviewed, he with the Salt Lake Tribune, me with the New York Times, and I'd known this guy a long time, and I said, This bill is bullshit.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_10: And the headline was Simpson says this bill is bullshit.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_10: And it was the same day that that Garner had said that some bill, the Salt Lake Tribune, he said this bill is bullshit, and our mothers called us the same day.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_10: Said, we you never learned that word here.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_10: We don't want to ever hear it again.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_10: I said, Mom, uh dad taught it to us, you didn't.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_10: And uh, but uh did you ever hear Bob Dole call a bill bullshit?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_10: No what?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_12: Did you ever hear Bob Dole call a bill bullshit?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_10: No, that was the amazing thing about Bob Dole.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I did the swearing for him.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Also, Russell Long, who was one of the people who helped me a lot when I first started the Senate, uh the leader on the on the Democratic side or in control of the finance committee.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: He and Bob worked together for years, and so a lot of Russell's very high regard for him more or less transferred to me because Russell was along with Senator Stennis and uh Senator Talmud and a couple of others was one of my real mentors.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_11: When you were working for your uh great uncle, uh Carl Vinson, uh, was Dole already in the House or not?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_11: He was there from 60 to 68.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I didn't know him then.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: He he may have been there.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: If he was there in 1960, he was there because I worked for my great uncle in the Armed Services Committee on the House side in uh 1962, right after I got out of law school.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So but I did not know uh then Congressman Dole.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_07: Well, how much of a rivalry is there between the houses?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_07: Well, there's there's great rivalry because and the house often can with the Senate in a sense.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_07: They're more specialized.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_07: The senators are trying to cover as many committees as the house is covering.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_07: They serve on at least two committees on the house three.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_07: You cannot do that as well as a house member.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_07: If you're a genius and work hard in a genius, they even with them.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_07: They can so often more knowledgeable.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_07: They're more knowledgeable in that area.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_12: Well, first of all, like Bob Dole, you've been in both the House and the Senate.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Which is better.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the Senate is better, I think, in many respects.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a smaller institution.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're given more latitude to be involved in the legislative process, and uh if you work hard and uh and keep your focus, there's a lot you can do.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in large measure, because you have longer terms and smaller numbers, it uh accommodates those who are real interested in the legislative process.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Senator Trent Lott.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_12: Both of you and the Senator have served, of course, uh apprenticeships in a sense of the House before you come in and set up.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_12: What's the difference between the two, and why do so many members of the former want to join the latter?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_13: I don't I don't think they're uh associated in any way.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_13: Uh probably are from two different worlds, uh, and uh there's no comparison between the House and the Senate.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_13: They're just totally different animals.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_13: Now, our forefathers once again exhibited their brilliance, I think, with how they set it up and the the compromise that led to uh each state having two senators regardless of population in the House with the representatives reflecting the population.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_13: But the House is is just so different.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_13: First of all, 435.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_13: It's like an anthill.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_13: They're you know, they're crawling all over the hill.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_13: They're younger, uh generally um more energetic and sometimes more passionate, you know, a lot quicker to fire off on a subject or react to what the people are saying to them.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_13: Um I like the house because I like its youth and vigor.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_13: Uh, but I also like order.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_13: Uh I like the rules committed.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_13: Now, if you're in the minority, you hate it.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_13: But if you're trying to get something done, you gotta have, in that size of a body, you gotta have some control of when things come up and how they're amended and how long you debate them.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_13: The Senate is just the flip side of that.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_13: Messy, disorganized, uh rules are made to be broken.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_13: Uh, anybody can offer any amendment on any subject anytime.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_13: It's total chaos, and it is the cooling off place.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_13: You know, uh it was designed to be and has become uh uh almost impossible a place to get to produce a positive result.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_13: So the saucer which cools off the cup, the hot cup of coffee has I think has become a uh wash pan.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_13: It's huge.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_13: Um but um you know they're very different.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_13: Obviously, you can do more if you're in the Senate.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_13: Uh, you know, you are representing a whole state and in some ways represent the country more than a country, but not to diminish the country.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_12: They tend to make you more, if you will, pragmatic, as opposed to representing a particular district with either or other.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_13: I don't know if I'd want to call it pragmatic, but you're more realistic.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_13: Uh, one of the uh things that I learned uh slowly at first and then uh very very quickly uh was the uh how much more time you spend on foreign and defense and intelligence and international issues because of what's in the Constitution.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_13: We're the ones that approve treaties, we're the fun ones that confirm uh, you know, the appointees and and we really do pay particular attention to, you know, military appointees, uh, defense and secretary of state and things of that nature.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_13: And uh, you know, so we we are in effect forced to spend more time uh looking at the International ramifications of what we did.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_12: Let me ask you, you obviously you have a lot in common with Bob Dole.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, you're obviously both from farm states.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_12: Um, you're conservatives, but I would say pragmatic conservatives.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_12: Uh you both served in the House before you served in the Senate.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_12: What's the difference between the House and the Senate?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_06: Uh for me, when I was in Bob Dole, too, when he was in the House, he was always in the minority.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_06: I was in the minority.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_06: We never expected to be in the majority, but all of a sudden, 1981, he was chairman of the finance committee.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_06: I was in the majority, I was able to be chairman of subcommittees, and nobody anticipated that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_06: But the difference between the House and Senate is roughly two or three things, maybe four things.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_06: Um one, uh being in at least when we came here, being in the majority as opposed to being in the minority.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_06: Number two, uh you gotta beg for opportunities to speak in the House, and you only get two or three minutes to speak, and you can't just automatically get the floor and keep it as long as you want to in the Senate.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_06: Anything you want to say for as long as you want to say it, under most circumstances, you've got an opportunity to just uh uh uh be a force there from the standpoint of speeches, almost uh because of the lack of ruler germanus in most cases.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_06: Uh you can offer anything you want to, so you got an opportunity to have a form for any cause you want, an opportunity to bring any legislative issue before you, you got an opportunity to.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_06: But the I think the most important thing is it's a small body and you actually know everybody.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_06: In the House of Representatives, I'd be reading the name in the newspaper and say, well, who is that?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_06: See, and uh even in my own party sometimes.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_06: Uh in the you really get acquainted with your colleagues, and uh uh public doesn't view uh they think everything's political in Washington.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_06: They don't recognize the cordiality of one senator towards the other.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_06: Uh even for people that disagree a lot, even for people that don't talk to each other a lot.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_06: There's still a respect for each other, I believe, that that I don't think you are able to develop in the House of Representatives, even if you wanted to, see.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_06: Uh particularly with everybody, I think.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_06: So I think being in a majority, a six-year, oh, another thing is a six-year term.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_06: You got a long view in the House of Representatives, you're spending all your time running for re-election.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Senator Dan, in a way.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_12: You know, it's funny, when Senator Dole arrived here for the first time in the Senate, he was told to make Senator Senis' acquaintance.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_12: And I wonder, were there were there those sort of old bowls who who were pointed out to to newcomers?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, when you arrived, was there uh who who were you told to?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I went through the protocol and we all had cards.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_04: I left my card at the majority leader's office.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: You call upon him.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_04: You don't just barge in the office.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: You have no point to just call upon him.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Then he calls you.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: I I met all the leaders, Democrat and Republican.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: More hierarchy in those days.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_04: I assume that's a thing of the past.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: So I knew Dirksen very well.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_12: Did you like him?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I got along very well.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_12: How much of that was an act?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_12: I mean, he he's such a theatrical figure, um, the whole persona.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_12: Behind that was a very serious legendary?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_12: Oh yes.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_12: I I guess I'm a bit of a hay.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's the same thing with Bob Dole.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_04: What's behind that laughter?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_04: I know you're serious.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: Don't take him lightly.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_12: Thank you so much.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_12: Thank you.