Latest / REBUILT: The Courage to Begin Again with Lorena Armitage / She Built a Nearly $500M Toy Business—and Still Felt Unseen | Melissa Bernstein
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- Lorena: If you ever bought a wooden puzzle, pretemplate set or craft kit for your child, then you may know the name Melissa and Doug. Melissa Bernstein co-founded the toy company with her husband Doug. And in 2022, it was reported that the company made nearly half a billion dollars in sales in a single year. Now, from the outside, Melissa had built an extraordinary life full of success. But while building the company and raising six children, she was privately living with profound depression. In this conversation, Melissa talks about what it's like to reach a level of success many people just dream of, but still feel very, very lost, and how she began to find her way forward and come out of that deep depression. She also shares her new chapter as she is building her new company. life lines. If you ever wondered what happens when the life you worked so hard to build and is very successful from the outside doesn't feel the way that you expected, this conversation is for you. And this is Melissa Bernstein. Melissa, thank you so much for making the time, especially while you're in such an intense building period and season with lifelines which I can't really wait to get to. and and I'm really, really, really grateful that you are here to share your very successful but very honest story. So welcome to Rebuild. Melissa Bernstein: Thank you. We are going to have such an amazing conversation. I know it. Lorena: Fantastic. Well, before we talk about who you are today and what you're building through lifelines, why don't you let the listeners hear from you who you are, take us back to to your story, what brought you to restart your life? Melissa Bernstein: Sure. Wow, that's a that's a that's a big one. I think I'll start by saying that I don't feel that I should be defined by my achievements because actually, you know, that is what probably got me into the worst state of my life. And there there's no reason I think if I wanna leave everyone with one message today is You are no different than I am. The only difference is I acted on my impulses and I would say acted to make my vision a reality and did it every single day for 35 years. So those little tiny actions that seemed at the time to be very inconsequential and insignificant, doing them every day for so many days over so many years ended up building something pretty cool. And you can do that too. You know, I am truly no different. And I think even starting in my life, I always thought I was a real outlier and very weird and didn't really belong here. And I think my struggle my whole life was wanting so badly to fit in and sort of maybe on the surface looking like I could fit in, which made it even worse. But inside I really couldn't fit in because I am so creative and I think my imagination goes to such different odd white space places that it was very hard for me to find people to relate to. And sort of the everyday like affability and free spirited way that people were, it just didn't fe it felt very off to me. Like I couldn't understand Why people didn't have this urgent need to be making meaning in their lives. And I was just a little kid, and it Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: was just this weird juxtaposition between wanting to be carefree and have fun, yet feeling like I needed to be doing something more. And I think that sense of urgency, you know, maybe also is a little bit different in people who really drive forward and drive themselves forward. There's something in me, and also Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: in Doug, I have to say. That isn't satisfied with just being. And it's a it's a blurse, it's a blessing and a curse, right? The the the blessing in that is you're gonna push yourself, even though I never knew what that thing was early on. So it was just a lot of very chaotic, awful energy going nowhere. Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: But ultimately that energy found its way out of me into creating tangible physical products. And that's when that internal angst started to have a reason and a purpose. And that's when my life started to dramatically improve. Lorena: you and and Doug have been tremendously successful. you built a company that was almost half a billion dollars in revenue. You're a mom of six and just you know raising and having the privilege of of living this from the outside quite successful life it's something that a lot of entrepreneurs or just anyone in general would look at your life and think, wow, that is so impressive. I wonder how are you able to just kind of keep creating and and leading and and living this life and being a mom while carrying maybe this what Melissa Bernstein: Yeah. Lorena: you call this like dark, profound darkness of Just not feeling quite fulfilled, even though from the outside you had everything. Melissa Bernstein: Yeah, I think that's the isn't that the the shiny side that we are shocked to see is a an illusion, right? And I think in most of us that is the illusion because that's the ego, right? All those things that you're saying, the you know, the the big houses and the beautiful clothes and the nice photos with the family. I mean, that's just the the optics. And you know, the truth of everyone's life. is everyone's life is messy and life is you know I've I've through all my travails I've become what's called a meaning coach. I coach people in how to actually make meaning in their lives because that philosophy is what saved me. So you know meaning is derived in the soul and the soul has nothing to do with the external achievements and the optics and those shiny photos. So I think what you realize early on, and it's called a rival fallacy. There's actually a term coined by a a a guy who realized that when we believe that we get to the top of that mountain, everything's gonna be okay. And we strive and we strive and we strive, and we actually realize our dream and we get to the top of the mountain, you feel this momentary like, I did it, hooray! And you like jump for joy. And then that existential void sets in because you realize my gosh, it would that was just one goal. And now without any goals, without any meaning, without any direction to go in, you're gonna become just as empty as you were before achieving that goal. So I think for me, it's been a long fought battle that I've used a few different methods to quell. one is A lot of philosophy and it's existential philosophy in what it means to take responsibility for making meaning and living a meaningful life, which has been the hardest work of my life. it's been a lot of traditional therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and really learning how to reframe some beliefs I developed as a child, which Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: were really. my truth but are not the truth and learning how to reframe them and live from a new truth. And then it's it's creativity. And and creativity for me touches the spiritual. It's it's like true magic when I touch the white space of creating something from nothing. And I think creating has become my form of being and I do have a such a profound darkness within. That can really start to become overwhelming if I'm not continually channeling it into something, as I said, not only of tangible form, because there's a little C creativity and there's a big C creativity. Little C creativity is creativity that's done just for the person who creates. And like some would say I am a creative person, so I could be creating all day, like I could make stuff, but that would do zero for me because. What I realized is that I have to take this darkness and channel it into something that can actually impact another in a measurable way. So for me, the circle of meaning is only complete when that thing I create is is good enough, is worthy enough, is utilitarian enough that I can hand it to someone else and see that it brings them some sort of joy. So I think When I can do that, I can keep the existential angst at bay. And then I am okay. Am I like up here? No, because I'm very spiritual and I believe in Buddhism Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: that you don't cling to pleasure or resist pain. And I'm very much like, okay, we're having success, but that isn't I'm not gonna cling to that because then so the the wheel of success goes round and around and around. So I have to just cling to the verb of the creating and and and connecting and mentoring and I have to stay in the verb, the of the of the living, not in the noun of the arrival and sort of getting to a place, because that's Lorena: Mm-hmm. Melissa Bernstein: when it all goes back to the void. Lorena: Hmm. And did you do you feel like and and I really don't know, did you feel like you become you became more religious once you were in that place of darkness? And that's what helped you become alive again and and create again and create new things that were full of meaning, or was religious o religion always part of who you were and Maybe that's what got you through those very dark moments. Melissa Bernstein: It's a great question. I'd say spirituality. It's not even religion because I'm not about a particular dogma. as a creative, I'm very much about no boundaries and just feeling, that that spiritual connection to something greater. But for me, what really saved me was the philosophy, actually. The philosophy of existential philosophy, which basically puts the onus on the individual that they actually do have the capacity to transcend their small self and make meaning and connect to something greater. And I think in my darkest days early on, I had a very victim mindset and I was completely disempowered. And I believed I was sort of at whim to the forces around me just to like wreak havoc on me and and move me wherever they wanted me to go. And I felt very much like I didn't have the capacity to make meaning in a meaningless world. And that's called nihilism. And that's the darkest. That's when, you know, I was very nihilistic in my beliefs. Like I can't change anything. It is what it is. People are the way they are. They will never see me for who I am. You know, sort of all those, those dark beliefs. And Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: When I started to, it was just by accident, I came upon this man, Victor Frankel, who wrote a book, Man Search for Meaning, and actually really created a philosophy called logotherapy, which is healing through meaning. It was only then that I realized that I actually have a condition which is not uncommon to very creative people. It's actually extremely common called, you know, existential depression, existential angst. Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: It's not traditional depression. It's not anything people really even understand in traditional psychotherapy. It's a very philosophical spiritual condition. And it doesn't, it's not a medicinal, you can't give up a pill for it. It's a Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: it's a philosophical spiritual condition where you are devoid of meaning, so you fall into despair. And it it's in the soul. So for me, my healing came through understanding the pathway out of not having that connection to my soul. And it sounds kind of woo-woo, but it's Lorena: Mm-hmm. Melissa Bernstein: really not. It's very tactical, to be honest. And it's it's it really saved me, you know, long before anything else. and luckily I'm fortunate that I do have the creative ability. So my my saving came through something in me already. So I'm so like fortunate because had I not had that, you know, it would have been a lot more challenging. Lorena: it's interesting how just getting back to who who we are and who we've always really been, kind of is salvation. and like you said, it sounds really woo woo and a lot of people talk about it, but unless we actually do that, we won't see that fulfillment of self. So it's i it it's a profound realization that I while during having these kind of conversations, I've been able to see that a lot of people that have rebuilt their lives, it's all about what fills their soul, truly. Melissa Bernstein: It is. It's about getting really authentic and real and figuring out despite what the world has told you you are or what you believe you've needed to be to satisfy others and the extrinsic, you know, population, it's who am I? You know, what am Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: I truly passionate about and what am I truly gifted at? And I sort of have coined this word passioned. It's this intersection between your passion and your talent. And that's really where everyone's sweet spot is because if you're not passionate about it, you won't want to continue doing it. You might be gifted at something, but if you don't enjoy doing it, it's not gonna be something you continue to do. And likewise, if you're passionate about something, but you're really not great at it, you're not necessarily going to be able to rise above all the people who are great at it and and make something of it. So it's this sweet spot where at some point, You really have to stop and say, I'm doing all this, I'm running this feud, I call it the feudal race, but like I'm not getting anywhere. Like, Lorena: Hmm. Melissa Bernstein: what is my heart telling me to do? And Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: I I even I wrote a book about it last year. It's called The Heart of Entrepreneurship. And it's really about, you know, I feel like a midwife now because part of my meaning comes from helping others find that that essence deep within them. and bring it out to the world. And I find that to be the greatest source of meaning for me when I can help others do what I was so fortunate to be able to do off over many years of hard work. Lorena: Hmm, mm. So I'm thinking back to, you know, you're in this dark place. You know that there's this like depression within you. The world looks at you, they think you're super successful. Was there maybe a moment when you just said, I just can't I can't continue on And was there something that maybe just flipped the switch for you to finally start maybe seeking meaning and making change for your life? Melissa Bernstein: It's a great question. Yes, there was. And it started happening in my 40s. And I think that is, I had put up this very very secure dam holding back like the truth of who I was. Because basically, although I had found a channel for all my existential angst through making toys at Melissa and Doug, the truth was I had never really accepted who I was. Which was someone I despised. I'm a very dark, heady, introverted, negative, believe it or not, very sarcastic, witty, but no one thinks I'm witty, but I s cause Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: I say really dark things that are you know, I'm I'm kind of that I didn't like who I was. I wanted to be like really lighthearted and affable and popular and but I had repressed all that. And when Melissa and Doug started, rolling and I started having kids and we had a family, it was a very busy, exciting 20 plus years. Like it was actually the best thing for someone with existential angst is to keep doing and never never think, never sit down for a minute. It was like absolutely perfect for my existential dread because it wasn't allowed to build up. And I think what started to happen is I got more tired. As I got into my 40s, I started to really one day, and I don't know, it was just starting to build that cry of the soul to be seen authentically. And one day I sort of was looking at, I don't know, one of our products on a shelf. And I said, my gosh, I am actually just like one of our products. I'm in this shiny packaging, like with a light on it, looking all like jazzed up when nobody really knows the truth beneath it. And it made me very sad that I had created all these t light and bright toys, bringing joy theoretically to young people when the person that created them nobody knew the truth behind her. So I started thinking, can't go on like this. I have to let the truth of me come out. And it wasn't so much to the world because I didn't really think the world cared that much, but it was like I have to tell my truth. And I was starting to, again, unconsciously listened to all these podcasts of people who were sharing their truth and I was like, I gotta do it. I gotta do it. And I finally there was a podcast I listened to that I loved. It was this guy Jonathan Fields and it was The Good Life Project. And I listened to this podcast and suddenly one morning I was like, I have to go on that podcast and I have to share my story. And it was like, What? Because I'm a introvert. I create I really don't do a lot of talking, never about myself. and anyway, long story short, I ended up, I didn't know this guy from anyone. I ended up contacting him. I ended up gil going on his podcast and sharing for the first time. And I had started to connect some dots and realized that this horrific way I felt my whole life had a name on it, which was called existential angst or existential depression. And It was very common in a lot of people who were highly creative. And it was also very common that a lot of people took their lives who had it. It was, it was such a affliction and so hard to find your way around it that it really doomed a lot of creatives whose names you know, you know, Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: sort of died that. So it was like this. this sense for the very first time in my life that I wasn't alone, that even though it was a lot of people who were in the past or didn't talk about it, I had something. I had s a name for it. It wasn't just that I was weird. It was like I have this affliction. So everything's dots started to connect and it started to lead me to want to come out as someone who on the outside looks like you know everything is going on. and I could be the voice of so many creative people living in the shadows who are struggling and maybe connect with others for the first time because I was in my mid-40s, but I had never made true friends who knew me for me. All my friends were like friends in quotes. And I thought, you know what? I need to be seen and accepted as I truly am. And that was the start of this really cool chapter. That's now fifteen years in almost, where I've been as honest and real, you know, as anybody could ever be about how hard it is to live in general, how all these things that seem so easy are not easy, that life is very bittersweet and very challenging. And I try to let everybody know that it's not easy. And it's not easy for me. Every day is Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: up and down, high and low. Do I have incredible joy? Of course. Am I so fortunate? Absolutely. But do I have days that are really tough for me? Absolutely. All the time. Lorena: Yeah. It's part of humanity, isn't it? To to have those ups and downs and to recognize that that's part of life. Melissa Bernstein: It is. Yep. Lorena: So this really cool new chapter, and I say new because, you know, you spent a long time in the previous chapters and the first thing that that you had to do to begin that chapter was to be honest and to start speaking your your truth and be super real. To start climbing the ladder, you know, the if you will, what did you what did you do after you just recognized that and started speaking your truth? Was there anything you a you said that you acted on small impul impulses that seemed like they were nothing, but was there maybe anything that you felt like that was my first step into climbing the ladder out? into this new cool Melissa Bernstein: yes. Lorena: chapter. Melissa Bernstein: Definitely. Everything I do is extremely action oriented. action is the thwart to existential angst. You must act on your values. It's like that's that's the key to life is continual action towards something that you feel very passionate about. So the first thing I did was came out and shared my story. And then I received literally like 150 letters the day after it aired, with people saying, my gosh, no one has ever given voice to what I've been feeling my whole life. So my first act was to respond to every single person who wrote me. And I think it ended up being hundreds of letters. And that was the first time that I felt like there might be a a reason for this, you know. i horrible way that I have felt. This blurse, this blessing and this curse. Right? The the blessing is it gave me the capacity to create and see things in my mind that haven't ever existed. The curse is that I have to live with a very challenging darkness that's like, you know, sort of pervades everything I do. So I contacted all of them, which blew my mind and made me for the first time feel like I had a real purpose and being like a voice for some of these people. And the only difference in us was that I had found a channel out and a way to channel that dread into, you know, toys or products. These other people had not. And when you're Lorena: Hm. Melissa Bernstein: feeling all that and have no channel for it, that's a really that's not a good place to be. That's called, you know, the existential vacuum. And and that's a that's a scary place. So that was the first. The second is I wrote a memoir. chronicling this a very dark, dark read, but it was like a step in my just letting it all out there. This is who I am. I went on the biggest media tour ever. I was on like all the morning shows in People magazine, like every CBS Sunday morning, talking about this woman behind all the toys actually has this darkness. People dug the story because it was like toys, depression. Good good media. Lorena: Yeah. Melissa Bernstein: So I I went out like you know and I was on these things. I was on CBS Sunday morning. I didn't wear makeup. Like I was like, I am going to just do this in my way. Like my way Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: is not being tidy, not looking great, like just being who I am, not being about the external, being about the internal. So I did that. I started therapy because I'm a perfectionist and my whole life I believed that saying you needed therapy was like admitting you were a loser. So never did therapy, but at like you know my my mid to late 40s, I was like, I have to go back and re and bring up all this repressed hatred of yourself and and learn to like accept your full self, Melissa, because you create out of the full spectrum of who you are, from the nihilism to the profound euphoria at the top. Like you better learn how to accept it. And I did five years of basically cognitive behavioral therapy, meditation. She's this incredible woman I worked with who became one of my dear friends. and that was that was a a journey. Because I was like, I am going there. I am touching that nihilism. And it was some dark, dark months. But once I was there and once I accepted myself, it was like this creativity that I never even knew existed became unleashed. Like I realized that I had actually Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: been blocking my creative, my creativity. It was like eking out through like one small vein. But once I accepted who I was, it was like a deluge. so Lorena: Hmm. Melissa Bernstein: that was kind of cool. I decided I would study meaning and I enlisted the help of a professor in Canada and did an independent study on logo therapy and became a certified meaning coach so that I could coach myself, but then also coach others. And that's what I do, you know, voluntarily, of course. anybody who reaches out to me and the people I mentor, we have an incubator that mentors young entrepreneurs. I mean, I'm really not mentoring them in like how to achieve a successful business. I'm mentoring them in meaning and and how to bring something in them forward. So this meaning coaching that I and and the essence of how to live a meaningful, fulfilling life it's been woven into every single thing I do. And it's probably been the most impactful thing of my life. And then another really cool thing, which is about taking a chance, is there's a woman who's the founder of the existential psychotherapy movement in Europe. And she was like my heroine. She's written 35 books. About five and a half years ago, I reached out to her and I said, You don't know who I am, but I've Been afflicted since I can remember. and I have some questions that nobody could can answer for me. Can would you consider having a one, you know, one conversation with me just to answer some questions? Like please, please, please. And she agreed to do it. And five and a half years later, she is my like my therapist, basically. I work with her once a month and she's one of the wisest. She has a dual PhD in psychiatry and philosophy. And she's one of the wisest women that I've ever met. And she's about 20 years my senior. So it's really cool that I have someone that I can ask all these like, you know, really dark questions to that nobody else wants to answer. Or no Lorena: Hmm. If Melissa Bernstein: but or or would scare people if they tried to if they heard them. Lorena: It feels like a lot of small, courageous steps, like the courage to be seen, the courage to speak to all of these people that felt unheard, the courage to reach out to people that you didn't know if they were gonna reach back out, but you reached out anyway, the courage to start finding meaning for yourself. It just feels like while it may not be seen that way, it was just a lot of courageous moments of choosing yourself and choosing the real you. Melissa Bernstein: Well, think what happens, it's an interesting word, courage. I think at the time it's really just a scale. And when the pain of being one way is so great, because it's there's always fear to do the other thing, right? So you have fear on one side, and then you have your authentic self. And the authentic self and what it wants just has to be one tiny tick above the fear for you to have the courage to do it. And I think At some points, the pain of being where you are and who you are and stuck are so great that you just say, I'm throwing caution to the wind and I'm just doing it. And that's kind of what has happened with me. It's not that I'm without fear. You know, I think fear is part of being human and anxiety is part of being human. It's just that thing in me that needs so desperately to either create or make meaning or connect is has just as I've allowed it, it's just become stronger than the fear. And I think for Lorena: Right. Melissa Bernstein: for all of you, who hopefully end up listening, I think that's when you make change. And you know, I have so many entrepreneurs come to me and they say, I don't know if I should start this business, right? And they they tell me the pros and the cons. And I say to them, if you don't know, you're not ready to start this business. Like it's pretty simple to me. When you start something, you have no choice. you are so impelled by this inner mission and this inner passion that is so great that despite everything people tell you, and despite the fact that it's going to be the hardest journey of your life, you are impelled to do it. So I do feel like a lot of these things, by the time you do them, like you're just you have no choice, and that's what it was with me. Like I it was like a tsunami. So by the time I did go out there, I was like, I don't care what people think. I I now had cared so much about what people thought my entire life. But by that point, it didn't matter at all. I was like, I'm going out there, if my hair's not combed, if I don't have makeup, I'm ready. bring it on. I am not sitting in the shadows any longer. Lorena: How fantastic to get to a place like that. I feel privileged to be having this conversation because if a lot of people are in that space of wanting to change, but just not getting to that point of and of I need to change, and this is the moment that I need to change, and I need to do it, and I need I need to move heaven and earth to make this work and change. As as we were speaking, I was thinking. Well, you must have had things that you you were designing toys, you were you know, you had all of these other responsibilities. How did you leave that maybe to the side to start finding this meaning and start building something that was meaningful to you to rebuild your life? Was that was that easy? Was it a conversation that you had to have and and was was Doug and the team around you, were they very understanding or was there a challenge in saying, hold on a minute, I may have all of these responsibilities, but I need to focus on myself. Melissa Bernstein: it's a great question too. Nothing really changed. You know, I've always been like a an extreme doer, too much a doer, which is why I became probably so tired in my mid 40s, like being able to quote, it was sort of my the chip on my shoulder, like I can do it all and more, just load me up. And and again, that's not a good female trait, and it does lead to burnout, so and martyrdom and all these bad things, but that was who I was. So Honestly, I just piled it on to everything I was doing. And I have to be honest, the creating part for me, that's like breathing. That on for good or for bad, that's the easy part. the the the thing about products is I have so many on the list that I don't even have enough years in my life to make all of them. So the the work responsibilities were pretty low because basically I had a beautiful team by then So my my job by that point was pretty easy, I have to be honest. And I was able to focus on all these other things. Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: Yeah, and my kids, you would think it would be a big deal, their moms going out and, on national T V and saying how she's depressed. but I don't know, for some reason maybe they were too involved in their own lives. we didn't really talk about it that much. Lorena: But probably you being real to yourself allowed them to see a change in you, which was a positive Melissa Bernstein: Definitely. Lorena: change to their own lives. So why not, mom, go out and talk on national TV? Because if this is what if it's making you happier and it's making our general lives happier, then by all means, you know, be happy and and do the things that fill your heart. Melissa Bernstein: Yeah. I think the message yes, the message was a positive one. It wasn't my my mom is is in a really despondent state. It was this is what we need to do to to get out of that state. So I tried to make it very much about we can be in all kinds of states that nobody knows from looking on the outside. I got a lot of backlash from people who said, give me a break. You are the face of depression. Like, hardly. I'll show you depression. And they would list all the things that were, you know, wrong in their lives. And I loved when people said that. Because I said, my gosh, you know, yes, in in terms of your material wealth and your situation and your circumstances. You have every right to be in, a different place than I am. But I was born with this. Like I my chemical makeup is existentially depressed. So these and and in fact, you know, there are many studies that show that material wealth actually exacerbates symptoms of depression and existential depression because you achieve everything you have ever wanted and you're Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: still depressed. so I I would be very vocal about like of course I have all these material things, but that's the whole point. They haven't made the existential darkness go away. So I'm here to tell you that everyone has this misperception that because you achieve material wealth equals happiness. That's not that's not the case. It could equal happiness if you're a content, happy person engaging in meaning, but just as easily It could not equal happiness if you are living out of your ego and have no connection to your soul and what you're really what you've really been put here to do. So I tried to be, you know, a voice for this myth that, you know, success equals shiny, happy, like perfect life. Lorena: Hmm, I love I've I've I love that because I was thinking in our conversation, if you were to have someone sitting right in front of you right now who has built a a fantastic material life, the business, the cars, and it feels almost impossible to leave that to rebuild their lives so that they could be happy. Maybe they are too stressed, maybe there's too much pressure in their lives, and they just don't want to do that anymore. What would you say to them so that they can actually be happy and be their true selves Melissa Bernstein: Mm-hmm. Lorena: to themselves and to the world? Melissa Bernstein: Yeah, well I think you don't you don't make major change in one day, right? Or in one action. So I they would need a meaning coach. They would need someone to really be by their side, helping them get from where they are now to where they want to be. And again, it's very tactical. you would start to really have them define what is important to them, what do they want to focus on, what is most meaningful to them. Is there anything in what they're doing now that has components of that that can be, with slight tweaks be made to be more meaningful or even a reframe? there are many people, and this is where cogn cognitive behavioral therapy really meets with meaning. sometimes you can view your job as meaningless, but just because you haven't really defined what's important to you and how your job might connect to what's important to you. very Often people have to work mundane jobs to support themselves and their families. But if supporting themselves and their families is one of their highest, values in meaning, then your job should have a lot of meaning because Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: your job is allowing you to provide for this family that means so much to you. And sometimes just that little reframe can take something that feels like, I don't know why I'm doing this, I despise it. And it can infuse it with new meaning. So there are a lot of ways, right? You would really look at exactly where they are, where they're spending their time, what's sapping their energy, what is making it so they feel like they're they're devoid of meaning. And you'd you dra gently, gently work toward changing that to be something that's more meaningful. And it can be little steps, you know, sometimes. People can continue to work exactly what they're doing, but they can do one volunteer action on a weekend for and there's this amazing stat. I don't want to mis miss state it, but it's something like volunteering for two to four hours a week. That's it. Can like lower the incidence of depression by 30 or 40 percent. You know, it's kind of considered because again, depression comes from the soul. in in many instances the soul just feeling like it doesn't know why it's here. it's this this isolated state where you're disconnected from people and you're disconnected from meaning. So Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: once you can engage in something that that makes you feel like there's a reason you're here, a lot of people's depression eases quite a bit. So Lorena: Mm. Melissa Bernstein: I know for me it did, you know, like again, Lorena: Hmm. Melissa Bernstein: mine is a different form. But when I'm engaged and feeling like there's a reason I'm here, like that dread, I don't I don't feel that dread. so it it's pretty Lorena: Yeah. I Melissa Bernstein: miraculous. Lorena: I I liked what you said of reframing your thoughts. you know, because a lot of people feel stuck. Like how am I going to rebuild my life when I have to work or when I have to do all of these things? But if you reframe your mind of that small shift that you talked about, find meaning in small meaning in what you're doing and start taking little steps that It may not be completely quit your career today and start something else, but it might be think a little bit different about your situation and Melissa Bernstein: Yes. Lorena: take the small step to maybe volunteer Melissa Bernstein: Yes. And Lorena: or something else. Melissa Bernstein: and most people start businesses. This is another like misperception when they have another job. Like very few people just say, I'm gonna quit tomorrow and start this really risky thing. So the other thing is again, you know, in meaning, there there's two components and and my life and I think everything should have sort of this dichotomy between ultimate meaning and ultimate meaning is kind of like your grand vision for your life and and connecting with something greater than yourself. It's a little lofty. And if you live in that, you will get very you will feel very anxious, right? Because it's like, how am I ever going to connect to this thing that changes humanity? But meaning in the moment is where the rubber meets the road. Meaning in the moment are those little tiny things that seem completely innocuous that you're doing today. That can lead you to ultimate meaning. So you could leave you could have this mundane job, you can reframe it, which might make it better or not, but you can still be working towards something, right? Every day you could have a few little micro tasks that are research. Let's say you decide you wanna, again, I'll make it something very simple that you've always loved to cook, and you wanna open this really cool organic breakfast place. So you can still start to research, right? Look at the towns around you, see what businesses are there, see if there's an opening in one of those. Like there are steps you can take while still in the security of a job. And that's always my suggestion: don't make any big moves until you feel like that role, that new role is gonna take up so much time that you can't do the other role. Lorena: Mm. I the amount of inspiration that one can start feeling from just taking that small first step is something that I have felt in my life. even this podcast is a is an expression of that. Small steps into who you truly are. So, Melissa, before we hear about lifelines and all the th wonderful things that you are building today, which obviously have a lot of deep meaning behind them. We tend to end all of the episodes of Rebuild with a piece of advice on courage. What is the smallest act of courage that someone can take in your view to change their life? Melissa Bernstein: that's a good one. I think it's believing you're capable of more than you think you are, you know, and having that vision for yourself that is outside where you are right now. And, you know, every time I've made a leap that if I thought about it, I would say there's no way you're going to be able to do this, Melissa. It has led to something magical. And I'm not saying success in the traditional sense. But it's led to an outcome that has changed my life immeasurably. So believe for just a minute that these dreams that you have are possible. And if you take the little tiny steps every day to get there, that it very well could be a reality. Lorena: I'm inspired. I can't wait for my own life. Melissa, thank you. Tell us about what you're building now. Tell us about lifelines, all this different work that you are doing today. Melissa Bernstein: Yeah, just just in a nutshell, I would say the courage to begin again w really started with lifelines. So I've had another recent courage to begin again because Melissa and Doug, you know, we sold the company and I was really sort of falling back into that existential vacuum again. You know, I don't think I I sort of knew that I need to create and without creating stuff. I get very dark very quickly. And I sort of didn't know how quickly that would happen. and lifelines just came about from my own experience dealing with the profound loss over Melissa and Doug not being part of our lives anymore. And through that exercise of having to ground myself, become present, not get upset. I discovered that my senses were this really cool portal to well-being. And ultimately we created this company around it, which are products that delight the senses, interrupt the stress response, and give you very true, authentic calm and joy. And I never would have imagined, you know, I thought I was going to be at Melissa and Doug until they carried me out. So talk about. something unforeseen, to to to be out of Melissa and Doug prematurely from where I ever imagined was unbelievable. But I it made it so I was able to create my favorite line I've ever created, which is called flow art. And it's a it's a guided art meditation pad that you can bring with you everywhere. And it's my favorite. product like not even close to anything I've ever created before. So I think again, another example, right? If you would have asked me six, seven years ago, maybe even less, maybe three, four years ago, like, are you ever going to say that leaving Melissa and Doug was a blessing? I would have said no, it was one of the biggest mistakes of you know my life. But today I would say thank goodness that happened. Because I've had this incredible gift of being able to build this new company with the most extraordinary team I've ever been able to work with, people who are like every bit our match. And it's really an extraordinary experience doing this again. Lorena: how exciting. I I hear in the back of my mind, be willing to be redirected because you are just being guided to the best place of your life. Melissa Bernstein: Exactly. Yeah. I you can really look at it now. At the moment you won't know how and why and when those dots are gonna connect. And that's the other thing, the more you can follow that inner guidance, sometimes it isn't right and you have to backtrack a little, but the more you can believe that there is a reason and there is a purpose and you will find the meaning in it, I think you do when you're on the other side of it, you do see all those dots connecting. Lorena: Melissa, thank you. How do people find you? How do people find lifelines? How do how do people connect with you? Melissa Bernstein: Sure. Anybody is welcome to connect with me. I'm Melissa at Lifelines, L-I-F-E-L-I-N-E S dot com. And I love to talk to people. I love to answer questions. That's like part of my meeting. And then our company is lifelines.com. We have a website. We are sold in major retailers. We are sold in smaller retailers. We love them all. So we definitely appreciate your support. Lorena: Melissa, thank you for joining us and I look forward to continuing to stay connected with you. Melissa Bernstein: I love what you're doing and how it is your meaning. So keep on keep on going. You've got it. Lorena: Thank you. If today's conversation gave you the courage to take the next step or it helped you keep going with the steps you've already taken, then we've done what Rebuild exists exactly to do. Until next time, keep rebuilding.