Latest / the ACT OUT podcast / Navigating Identity, Culture & Resilience: A Powerful Iranian Immigrant Story

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Navigating Identity, Culture & Resilience: A Powerful Iranian Immigrant Story · the ACT OUT podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Act Out Podcast.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Adam Tomlin.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Iranian democracy advocate, Zalal Hubby.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's roll the tape.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Zalal, how are you?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, how are you doing?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be with you.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Same here.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've been I've been excited to talk to you ever since uh you know I saw you on the schedule.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh this is definitely going to be a lot of fun today.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm looking forward to the conversation.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And please allow me to greet those who are tuning in to the podcast today.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so if kind of just a very brief introduction of what uh what's your what's your name and what do you do?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm Glal Habidi, and I am a member of the NCRI Foreign Affairs Committee.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: The NCRI is the National Council of Resistance of Iran.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's the parliament in exile of the Iranian resistance dedicated to the overthrow of the current regime.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we promote uh you know the human rights situation in Iran and stand for a secular democratic republic in Iran.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And how how long have you been outside of Iran?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I'm part of the generation that has never actually had the opportunity to be in Iran.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was born and raised um in the U.S., and my parents came to the US before the revolution.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you kind of break down um like today's political landscape in Iran?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is the type of government and uh like how many political parties are there and are there elections?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, we have a theocracy in Iran.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a classical dictatorship, it's a religious dictatorship.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's supposed to be a republic, but it's actually the Vilayat Kafi, which is the supreme leader.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the system is built that there's instead of like a I guess it's kind of like a you know classical dictator, like a monarchy, you would have like the king.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: They have the supreme leader, um, which is like a religious figure or ideological figure for the regime.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then they have their their different branches.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they have like a president, they have like the parliament, they have their judiciary, they have a council of elite, which is the council that decides on who becomes the you know, the supreme leader.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then they have like a guardian council.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it has a parliament which is supposed to have like elections every two years.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it if you look at it like by you know, textbook standards, it has all of those things in it, like checks and balances or things.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is that there everyone is approved by the Guardian Council, so there isn't anyone who opposes it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there isn't like they try to present themselves as having different factions or whatever, but they're all um have, you know, swarm sworn to be, you know, um to be uh loyal to the supreme leader.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so the whole system is um it's a dictatorship.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not there isn't really I I mean, it's sham elections really.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: We don't we have to there's no such a thing as an election in Iran.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is that, you know, um that's why we we always have said that there's no reform possible in this system because a bifer never gives birth to a job, so it's not going to be very uh different throughout the years or even throughout, you know, with whoever comes and goes, the same way that you know, Khomeini he rules how many continued that and right now, you know, um more so it's been a coma, but I mean it's the same system, it's not there isn't any difference between the all.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's checks and balances on paper, but not in practice.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is decided by the supreme leader, and everything is just the supreme leader.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: They actually have even to be able to support the whole system, they have like the IRGC, which is in the kind of have like two limit two militaries.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: One is the classical military that you would have to protect the borders, and then you have the IRGC, which is there to protect the supreme leader in the whole system.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: That is something uh that you see which is different than I think a lot of other places.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so like you were talking about elections, but they're sham elections.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say that you and I are in Iran and we are wanting to uh run for some for some political office.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have uh pledged my support to the Ayatollah, and uh, you know, I will I'll be in black step with them.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you are uh you know part of the uh you know, like the counteract of the revolutionary, so to speak.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so whenever we go to file our paperwork, the the council is gonna accept me and allow me to probably run since I am approved, but they're gonna deny you, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of how it works?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, but it's a bit more than that.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not going to be an issue of just being denied for me.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it would probably like arrest an execution because um I am from the opposition.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the thing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um 120,000 people have been executed in Iran for supporting the Iranian resistance.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um even right now there are people who are on death row or in prison for some kind of affiliation with the Iranian resistance.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just unfortunately, in the last two weeks, actually, six political prisoners were executed in Iran for affiliation with the People's Modernizing Organization of Iran.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this is something that's been continuous since 1981 until now.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is the situation.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So in the uh in the is the uh I Ayatollah Khomeini, is that am I saying that right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: He has is it a fatwa?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what it's called whenever uh like a a proclamation?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it that proclamation was essentially anyone who is in the top of the moja had been or it's expressed um use that are sympathetic to them needs to be killed or to be executed.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's something very, very funny and if I'm not mistaken, the uh the judiciary of whoever's supposed to carry it out whenever they first were like um we we had to ask like had to ask questions like uh does this account for people who are currently serving right now?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh does it count for people who have just been uh you know, like just been accused?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was this whole blanket tweet.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that correct?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually to go back on that a bit.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um at first in 1981, Khomeini had uh declared on the on the radio and that anyone who is in any way affitated with this group, they could you could kill them at point blank on the street.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't even have to there's no need for a trial or anything.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why June 20th, 1981, um, when that you made that statement, unfortunately that same day, at least two, three thousand people were executed in Iran.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And since then, executions like they were carried out.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know people who were in prison at that time, they were like sixteen, seventeen years old at that time.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: They were in prison, they said they would count the coup de grosse fired every night.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just in every prison, there will be about two hundred, three hundred people every single night, and just imagine that throughout the country.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in 1988, as you mentioned, it was right at the end of the Iran-Iraq war.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Khomeini knew that for eight years he had been able to suppress everything internally by saying, We have a foreign enemy, we're at war, so you need to just, you know, keep quiet.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they knew that the minute this war comes to an end, people are going to rise up.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to want change, they're going to demand that change, and they're just fed up with the situation.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they needed something to spread fear.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Khomeini gave this fast while as you said, it's it's a one-page handwritten note um by Khomeini, and we still have that copy of it actually.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in it it says, you know, all of them should be executed.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that as you mentioned, there were questions, um, because some of these people had uh been in prison for six, seven years.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some had or eight years even.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Some had finished their prison terms, they just ha hadn't been released yet.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some were just, you know, in a state of limbo.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: They really didn't have anything against them.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like, for instance, for family affiliation, or for instance, when they were in high school back like in 1981, they had a p pamphlet or a newspaper, which at the time was not illegal.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were in prison.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of those things actually continued to remain, and so that's why they had questions.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other hand, they were just asked, um, so these committees were formed, the death committees, what we call the death committees, and it would be a team of three or four people representing the intelligence ministry, the clergy, and the judiciary.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they would just ask people just they didn't the people didn't know that they were being, you know, this is kind of like a trial or anything.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: They would just be asked four three, four questions based on like some people they would just ask one question.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: If they answered that question not the way the origin wanted, they would be taken to the hall, you know, they would let be led to the line for the execution.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just done immediately, like that fast.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: They were asked like what is your what is your charge or what is your political affiliation.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: If they said the Moja Hideen, you would be immediately taken, you know, to be executed.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they were just asked like three, four basic questions, um, and based on that, they were taken to the gallows um automatically.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as I said, in five, six weeks they had over thirty thousand people executed.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, uh, that is how Khomeini was able to spread fear in society because you can imagine um at that time Iran's uh population was a lot less than it is today.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so every family either knew someone who had been executed or had lost their loved one, and so that's how Khomeini was able to spread fear in society to show that it sees no borders.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, you know, the um the atrocities perpetrated by this regime over the years, I mean, they have shown time and time again that they see no borders when it comes to these executions.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one thing that's important to note, since last summer till now, a few of the top figures in this regime, top officials have made mentions of the nineteen eighty-eight massacre and the need to repeat those executions.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: After the January uprising, one of the regime officials on you know official state television said we need to create a callbon in every province.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Calbannon is the name of the mass grave in the community massacre.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact I think we need to create a call down in every province if we want to keep control over society.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was, you know, they were like, why didn't you they were actually criticizing the regime.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: This was like internal criticism of the regime.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you have 50,000 people arrested?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: You should have just had them killed in the street.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was, you know, that was their message.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And last week, EJ, who is the current um head of the judiciary in the regime, has said that we need to expedite the execution sentences and the executions for the protesters and the political prisoners.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is the um I I guess is has it just been a massive uh like campaign to dehumanize the uh this opposition part, the Mujahideen, uh since uh 1981 or even before then?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's what I was actually I think you you actually touched on a very good point because this is something that most people just don't uh immediately pick up on.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: But from the very onset, um Khomeini, when he came into power, he knew that, you know, the reality on the ground was this revolution was created by the younger generation of Iran at the time, who were, you know, part of progressive movements.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those progressive movements, the heads of those progressive movements, uh a lot of them had been executed, but the ones who were remaining, they were still imprisoned in the final weeks of the Shah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Khomeini was able to hijack the revolution because they were still in prison.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And once they were being Khomeini knew that he didn't have the capability to create like a you know run a true state.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So he was counting on being able to create like maybe a coalition with them in a way, or have them because they had a good reputation among the people, to be able to utilize them to actually set his you know, g have his group power.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: But from the beginning, especially he concentrated on majority because there were uh leftist groups and then there was the majority who they were progressive but they had they were Muslims too.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it has it was something that the regime needed in a way.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they from the first day on, the majority were like, uh no.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: We did not have a revolution for Islam, we had a revolution for democracy in Iran.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we, even though we're Muslims, we believe in a secular state.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we believe that there is no force in religion, and so we are not going to go under, you know, this uh this dilahi and this nonsense of having a supreme leader and Islamic state.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, they did not vote for the constitution of the regime, and that was the turning point for for Khomeini.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, actually there was um there were supposed to be elections held for the presidency, and so the Mujeris had their candidate for presidency, Master Rajabi, and um Khomeini said, Well, you didn't vote for the supreme leader uh or like having this system, so you can't take part in the elections, thinking that they would be like, Okay, fine, we'll agree to it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Well, no, we're we don't agree to it.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is when, you know, everything fell apart.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And since then Khomeini, there's actually an audio file or video actually of Khomeini saying that in one in a million I would give the chance that the MEK would back off of their principles and what they stand for, I would be working with them, but they're not.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so from that and that's one thing that we take pride in, the fact that we never um cooperated with Khomeini and from day one we we said, you know, the revolution was for the freedom of the people of Iran, not to create a religious state or a theocracy.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So Khomeini had that hatred, and so since on June 20th, 1981 was like the turning point, then there was a peaceful protest at the time um in Tehran half a million people came and it was spontaneous.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was in regards to at the time Bani Sad was like president of Iran and Khomeini was trying to, you know, have him deposed or whatnot.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they you know, they protested in regards to, you know, you can't take away these freedoms that you have promised the people of Iran.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that protest turned um, opportunity Khomeini turned it into a blood that and that was like the turning point.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And since that day on the resistance had to go underground and to be able to continue its fight with the regime because for a year and a half they two eight actually two and a half years, they tried every possibility to be able to create reform within this regime and try to somehow save the revolution that they had created um against dictatorship, but that was like the point that they realized it's it's not possible with Khomeini.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: The uh Khomeini before he assumed power, like he kind of went around to like European countries and kind of made himself out to be the this person of like, I'm gonna be a reformer, there's gonna be more like kind of like liberal democratic elements to it, and was that all just to try to build the coalition inside, like he had no intention of doing that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: The approval of the West to put him into power.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um Khomeini, he was uh in exile for 20 years in in Iraq.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: The sixth month, uh the sixth final month, he was in France.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and at that time, uh it was the Cold War era.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and the world the international community was realizing that the Shah is on the brink of falling, especially after um September 1878 when Homani when the Shah opened fire on protesters in uh throughout the country, and over a thousand people were killed that day on the street.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people can give you this image of, oh, the Shah just left and he because he didn't want to see bloodshed.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: He tried his best to suppress the revolution with bloodshed, and when that didn't give the response that it they were hoping for, that is when he started detracting.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But at that point, that was six months before the revolution, people, you know, the international community realized that this regime is on the verge of falling apart.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be able to keep itself afloat with the nationwide uprisings at the time.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so they got into negotiations with they were looking to like what is the solution?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because they understood that those who had created this revolution were progressive movements.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um on the other hand, it was the Cold War era, so Iran is bordering USSR, so they were like, hmm, where's where are they going to align themselves and whatnot?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So they wanted to, you know, I guess set on the the horse that they thought was, you know, going to be to their benefit.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so they figured Khomeini, he's a fundamentalist, he's supposed to be a religious figure, he is against communism, so he's our best bet, probably.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Homeini also said, I will allow the freedom of parties and freedom of speech, and I'm just a you know, a religious figure, a clergy.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm I'm not looking for power.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm more of a fatherly figure because I've my old age and I'm gonna go to Ulm and continue my studies once we go to you know, once I go return to Iran.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that never happened.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's why like for instance today when you hear sometimes you see here the the son of the Shah saying that let's not get stuck in the you know labels.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I am just like a he he also uses I'm just a father figure for people and people just you know, because I'm my father's son and whatever people want me, and I I don't want power, I don't have any interest in power, I'm gonna be like, uh we've heard that once before.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And your your actions speak otherwise.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um Right.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is um the situation uh when it comes to 1979 and Phomani couldn't get into power.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess there like what I'm kind of just fascinated with is that it seems like it doesn't matter who is in power or when, whenever the Iranian people are trying to protest or trying to like have some self-determination, people are like just struck down by very brutal means that is unfortunately the case.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you look in the last um decade, we've had four major uprisings in Iran.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um every time it is met with brutal force.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um so you see like the regime since 2019, especially, if you look, um the uprising back then, people came to the streets, it was very um strong movement.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then the regime shut down the internet for uh five, six days back then, and they were able to kill in the streets with open hand, a thousand five hundred people were killed at least, and with that they were able to, you know, hold their grip on the situation.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then 2022, the spark was the you know, the unfortunate death of Max Sajina Amini for malveiling, the protest began again, it was met with suppression.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So after a few months you saw that and and then this time around in January, you saw the nationwide uprisings in Iran, and people came to the streets, they were very defiant, they were really fed up with the current the situation.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: People understood.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, each time you see it evolve and become more radical, people understood that you know, no one's going to Canada's freedom and still work.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: We have to pay the price for it.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're what they were willing to do that, and you could see that in the messages of those who were killed in the protest.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: They said a lot of them they said their final farewell before going to the street.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And but they understood that this is the price.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is the price we have to pay for freedom in Iran.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the people at Rome were willing to pay that price.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for 19 days there was a internet blackout and the regime had open hands in killing and then we saw, you know, those scenes of those black bodies.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thousands were killed.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's very difficult to verify the actual numbers.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there there are unfortunately others with different types of interests who are playing with those numbers.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: But for us it's very important to speak about the actual facts.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: What we have been able to determine clearly it's over 3,000.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: We had the names of over 200 2,600 people who have been killed in the protest and the regime committed war crimes in the suppression.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: They actually went into hospitals and shot people who were wounded and were being treated in the hospital.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So they they they sent their message that you know they will do anything to keep their power intact.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Since then there was uh martial law instated in Iran.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: But despite that, I think that we saw people continuing to mobilize and organize a lot of the families they turned the the memorial services or the ceremonies that they had for their loved ones who were killed into forms of defiance and resistance and making the pledge to their children to continue the fight and to celebrate their lives because they had given up their lives for freedom anymore.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the regime thought this is how they could spread fear in society, but instead of spreading fear in society they they saw they were faced with this wave of people having more determination for the regime.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because they understood like if we go back into our homes again, then it's going to take another spark and then there's going to be another cycle of you know continuous death and destruction.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we saw even a week before the start of the war, this is the thing after the uprisings the regime had shut down all college campuses.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Every all the classes were held online because the first group of people who joined the merchants and the bazaar and the uprisings were the students.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: So universities are usually the hotbeds for the uprisings in Iran.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're the elite they're the youth of Iran um and so on February 22nd when classes resumed in person protests started in universities across Iran.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So on the first day they saw that and for three or four days the regime tried to control it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: They saw that they weren't able to so they shut down the campuses again and um said you know classes would resume again in April.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Everything has to be online.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time on February 3rd we saw a group of 250 members of resistance units.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Resistance units are the underground network of the People's Motorizing organization inside of Iran that have been something that has come together over the past decade inside of Iran.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they carried out an operation against the headquarters of Kamening um which is the most secure location in all of Iran at a time that they were on heightened security because they feared a war happening and they had thousand suppressive forces securing this location and they were still able to infiltrate that and go through the message for people inside of Iran was like wow the regime is much weaker than it tries to present itself and so that really um was had a clear message for people inside of Iran.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately the war started like five days later so it wasn't um but everyone understood that this is going to be the new norm.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be the new path to have both the protests and the operations together to be able to overthrow this regime and that is like the direction that we see it going to.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we see like in the last two weeks that the regime has kind of realized that you know the war is going to be coming to an end soon, hopefully sooner than later.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But um they've started the execution of political prisoners and protesters.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because the regime knows that the minute this war comes to an end, it's going to still it's going to be dealing with a new wave of unrest inside of a country and that is what they fear the most.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why even in the midst of a war they're not stacking off of execution um of protesters and political prisoners.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Six of the political prisoners executed were affiliated with Mujahideen and seven of the protesters who were killed were those arrested after January.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: You see among them people 1890 in their early 20s and their early 30s who've been executed but you also see people in their 60s who have been executed.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the regime is trying to send a message that you know first of all it tells the people of Iran that the regime fears the people more than anything else because at the end of the day the Iranian regime knows that it's not going to be overthrown with just bombs over the head they're not a classical dictatorship.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Iran Iran is a very vast country and so they understand that but they know that the force that is going to overthrow them is the people of Iran and so that's why they are turning to these executions.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's why EJ has also given this message last week it is incredible to incredible to me the bravery of the protesters.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you were talking to me earlier that just about everyone at one point in time loss someone who had been executed or arrested or in a course by the redeemed and you can see how effective that would be uh in like quelling protests.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you kill my crap you're going to kill me too I'm going to back off but even if that fear as a as a and eventually the the desire for freedom is so strong that people will say like well if death is certain I death is preferable to death they changed.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's fire.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Actually you touched on a very good point there.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people like in front of Iran first of all they have this experience because they saw like if you look at the past I mean the three decades after the 1988 massacre there was complete silence in Iran for about 11 years until the new generation came into the scene in the two in the 1999 student uprising.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then when that was suppressed the first major uprising again in Iran was in 2009.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a decade in between each of one of these protests.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then you see in the last 10 day in the last decade we've had four major uprisings in Iran.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you see that process changing.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Also what's important is that people realize that if I keep on because this generation especially the Gen Z of Iran, if you look at them both them and their parents have grown up under this regime.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they've just seen nothing but this regime.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: The Gen Z of Iran is now looking at their parents and they're like look your parents tried to safeguard your lives and they prevented you from joining the resistance or becoming active because they feared so much from what they had seen in the 1980s that they just wanted to safeguard their children.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: But what does that bring us to today?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: We are where we are today because there's a price for it, you know, at the end of the day and we have to pay a price for this freedom.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that's when they are realizing that we are those agents of change.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: We we can't be watching you know looking at others to create that change for us.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have to bring about that change ourselves.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where you have to pay the price for what it is that you're fighting for.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is what we're seeing right now resonate throughout you know Iran's um society.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Also on the other hand I think that like the 1980s you have to understand on one hand it was the eight year war with Iraq which costed you know over a million lives on each side of the war.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: The the regime sends four hundred and fifty thousand children to be used as minesweepers in the war.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean a regime that's willing to do that with its future like they would actually take buses to schools and take like twelve, thirteen year old children, fourteen year old children to to the mine, you know, to the border area of the war and they would give them these gold plastic keys and would tell them this is the key to heaven so you just put that around your neck, we wrap you up in a blanket and we roll you open on the minefields and then you know when you die you'll go to heaven.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And a government that's willing to do that with its own people, with its own future like the main asset that you have in your country you can imagine like the message for the rest of society.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean there were at that time there were a lot of families who decided they're like, you know what, I'm not going to send my children to school anymore.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um this war is over or you know just those devastations and then followed by the 1988 massacre and before that you saw that um I know a lot of children I I mean a lot of people from like our age our generation who grew up in Iran during their elementary school years or even when they were in middle school or high school they have all practically encountered a public execution at some point in time.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because like for instance they would be going on their way to school um because they would have to walk to school um then you would see like for instance the main square would be shut down all of a sudden and so you're stuck there.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can go forward you can go backwards and then they carry out a public execution.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's how Khomeini used to start on society.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just imagine being a child and having witnessed that the impact that it had on society and that is how Khomeini was able to keep his grip on power throughout these years.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to understand like it's very difficult to stand in front of the face of this regime.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that what we are grateful for is the fact that we have had organized resistance throughout these years because this regime with the brutalities that it carried out could have under normal circumstances or if it was in a different era or a different circumstances that there wasn't an organized resistance, they could guarantee its power for about five hundred years.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact that we didn't allow the flame of resistance to die away to keep that continuous and to continue to fight this regime and weaken it to a point that it has reached today.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that just happened overnight.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: This regime has been in this fight has been continuous for decades and that is what we see in Iran society today.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean what was flourishing what has come about from all of you know from decades of continuous struggle and I think that that is what gives people hope.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I think a lot of people especially the like the younger generation in Iran they're like you know what?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to sacrif I would be willing to sacrifice my life if I could have some kind of a guarantee that there will be freedom.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm willing to make that sacrifice in my own personal life with someone for the for the country as a you know for the future of this country.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: No not really um because we have seen in the past hundred years like dictator after dictator but the fact that there's an organized resistance movement that has withstood the test of time I think that really helps because you know you're not I guess you're not concentrating on or you're not really putting uh your your trust into something that is just on paper or n or just mere words.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that withstood the test of time.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: It stands like for instance when it says separation of religion state this is something that they stand for and they have been used to it in practice.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: When they say you know we want we're willing to give everything because for the people's sovereignty well the fact that these people like some of them they were teens when they joined this movement like back in nineteen seventy nine the revolution and now they're in their sixties and they're still standing and they're still fighting.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Day in, day out, constantly for forty something years, forty five years.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's something you could just if they were after power there were easier ways to get it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: If they were after you know money there's easier ways to get it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: If they were after name recognition there would be easier ways to get it.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is something that you can trust.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that unfortunately the greatest crime perpetrated by Khomeini was betraying people's trust.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we built a a very important part of this fight.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also as you mentioned at the beginning you were saying the amount of propaganda and disinform disinformation that the regime annually puts effort in.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Every year they have like a budget of you know twenty million dollars I think or something like that for propaganda against the NEK alone.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that shows I mean that for itself speaks for itself but it's very difficult it does make the things very difficult.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And also if you look and since if you go back from like Iran Contra till today at every negotiation table with the regime the first thing that the regime puts on the table as the bargaining chip is something against the system.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Limiting their activities blacklifting them having them eliminated you know and unfortunately they've always gotten what they wanted and we are today.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah that is um a perk that we've paid and continuously continue to pay that price.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It just shows how dispensable the community or I the artist is the people but what I loved that just said was the uh the flame of resistance and I I think that's the one of the best ways of describing I've got this it's so inspiring when the so many people are stepping up and fighting and you're right it's not about the fame and fortune but it's just about freedom and freedom for yourself and for your people I think that's the most noble cause you could get behind.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly I mean I think each one of us um the day that we made the decision to join this movement, we understood the price, especially like our generation because we had seen the previous generation, we had seen the price that had been paid by our parents' generation and everything.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: When we decided to so we it was c with complete open eyes that we decided to join.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that for me I've always believed that there's no greater um satisfaction or I think accomplishment that I could have than to be a part of the movement that brings about true democracy and the fight for freedom in Iran has been contained for 120 years.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in the the revolution there have been short-lived times that people had a bit of freedom I think the longest is probably two years under Dr.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Muffad who was overthrown with the coup d'etat by the CIN MIT because he he nationalized Iran's oil and that's one of our you know unfortunately we're a country that's very rich in natural resources and that has been you know we've paid a great price for that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: But also Iran plays a very important geopolitical role.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why we see you know is um there are those who have interests in what happened in Iran and that's why we've seen all the dictators that we have in Iran have been installed one by one.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: From Raja Khan um who was installed by the British and then when he wasn't serving their purposes anymore, they put him into exile and brought his son and then his son for the first year he had to wash his steps because he was afraid that he would be replaced like his father was I mean to the extent that when his father died he wasn't able to even bring his father back to the country and bury him.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um so the first years he really watched his steps and then though that allowed the people of Iran to actually have you know a prime minister that was elected and that was Bakht and um but when you know after the coup d'etat against Radev the Shah was reinstated but this time he had complete power and so he ruled with the Sabak and you know the suppression eliminated from that moment on he eliminated all parties and said we only have one party and that's the Rasokis party if you don't like it leave the country or you'll be arrested and he ruled with the ironist um today there are those who try to you know present a rosy image of Iran under the Shah but it's like imagine in like 40 years people showing like these videos and things that you see on Instagram of you know the rich kids of Tehran and um and the regime and be like look how you know amazing Iran was under Khomene you know the goal like Khomene did for the e for Iran he brought internet he brought in communication and whatnot I'm like hello those are things that come with the times because some of the things that they tried to boast about you know the Shah modernized Iran I was like hmm there's electricity and water everywhere in the world but even then he did not have that for the entire country and like for instance they're like made the railroads I'm like do you understand that the railroads were like from south to north instead of being from east to west major it didn't go through the major cities.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was for military news and not not for civilian use.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean you know when the reality that when the facts aren't there because there was a dictatorship unfortunately you know they use that and they tried to present it differently but the reality is that the people haven't forgotten.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we still know people who have who bear the scars of torture under the Sabak.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: My father he he was a law student in Tehran University and he had just graduated at the top of his class and so the Shah had offered him a job um to be a judge but it would be he has to be in check with what the Sabak asks him to do and whatever the Shah does and my my dad was like no not taking that position.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: They actually have him arrested for that for denying that position and um he was in prison for a few months and back then there wasn't the communication so like the family was just like they had no clue where he was and after three four months he was released and when he went back my grandfather was like you need to leave the country as soon as possible and so my dad has actually gotten a full scholarship for American U to continue his doctorate um so he came to the US then but i and my fat my my dad wasn't like a major activist or anything.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes he he was you know he did have progressive views and he did he was a but he was an active active but they actually had him arrested for you know just denying a job and so you can imagine like what the situation was back then.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um so uh that is just like a glimpse of it but I have seen like there's a mother we call her Aziz mother Meza she um four of her kids were killed by the Shah and she was in her early forties I guess at that time and she was also imprisoned because of her children, not because they had anything against her personally, along with her daughter who was pregnant at the time.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the Shah actually tortured them mother and those she still has like a whole like in the store of her feet because of you know the the tortures and everything even though she has had a surgery since then but those those people are still alive and people are like talking about how great Iran was under the Shah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: No that's not the reality of Iran the reality the people have Iran revolted for a reason it wasn't because they were really too happy you know they revolted for a reason they can't forget that past and it was interesting for me yesterday Ms.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Panhabi was in Sweden and a reporter asked him you know your father's past do you think that has effect on you that you try to present yourself now as like the leader for the transition or whatever.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and first of all, let's be honest, it's not transition for the it's not meter for the transition.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean if if it was, why do you keep on, you know, reiterating crown prince and his calling the king.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And now you've you've named your daughter as the you know, the crowned princess now.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, if you're not into into that, um one on what merit are you standing, um you know, aside from crown recognition.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And your father was overthrown by the people, so that name recognition doesn't really do any good.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're not in the you know in the um line of recycling dictators right now.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: But um they asked him that and he said, I take pride in my my family's paradise.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um that shows me where you stand today and the fact that he has given after 47 years of not doing anything this summer he actually gave a plan, a roadmap for what Iran would look like after he comes into power and it's um it's devastating the roadmap if you read it.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: 76 pages, but he calls for the revival of the Sabak.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: He calls for the What is that?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: The Sabak was the um secret police police of the Shasta was like the suppressive forces that they tortured and executed and everything.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: The police state was wrong by the Sabak.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's um and then he calls for the revival of the Imperial Guard which was the equivalent of the IRGC today.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just like rebranding the systems of the current regime.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And he calls for like having martial law in 20 major cities and he calls for like a system that is even worse than his father's like when you look at it it's like a so completely totalitarian government and without any checks and balances he decides all three you know branches and who leads them and who's part of them.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, you know what?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: That does not look like a democracy to us.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you could brand it however you want but the people we run I mean the slogans on the streets speak for themselves.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they say no to the crown, no to the turban, yes to freedom and democracy.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Down with oppressor be it the Shah or the Mundas.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: But there are those who do have interest in having a puppet in power and so they they do promote him unfortunately and that's where you know that positive achievement and having interest in Iran's natural resources comes into play I guess.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like Iran is a pretty diverse country a lot of different views.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: So ideally for you like a the form of government that you would advocate for what would that look like and how would you um how would you deal with like the people who have the uh theocratic views well um what we call for is first of all the people of Iran have to decide on the the final government and how that forms for the interim government we do propose a six month interim government and then there will be elections held under the eye of the international community where it will be creating like the constitutional assembly.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: That constitutional assembly will come up with a new constitution which will be put to vote by the people then their elections would be set based on the new rules of the republic uh for the people of Iran to make that decision.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: But for the interim government um we do uh the NCR has a the plan for the interim government.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is outlined I guess like kind of like the cliff notes of this tempor of this um interim government plan would be the 10-point plan presented by Mrs.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Rajabi.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's the president like the leading resistance for the interim government.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Its main concentration is on the transfer of sovereignty to the people of Iran but it calls for separation of religion states.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: It calls for you know the ballot box being the final criteria it calls for gender equality it calls for recognizing the rights of Iran's ethnicities and the autonomy of Iran's ethnic cities it calls for the rights of religious minorities and the different groups in Iran it calls for a free market you know um society.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you look at the 10 pen it really does create like safeguards to make sure that you don't derail into dictatorship or the you know um off the touring state keeps you in that line of you know secular democratic republic.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: It has garnered the support of over 4,000 lawmakers around the world and um including the majority of the US Congress for years actually for decades over a decade every single year.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: But also like for instance um over 130 former heads of state supported this template plan or over a hundred Nobel laureates have supported it.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it has garnered a lot of international support throughout the years.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what's important is the fact that as I said it's not just mere words people see it and the practices of this of this movement and where it stands.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really important.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also for especially for the women of Iran because they have been systematically suppressed so much it is very inspiring to see a woman leading this movement for not just you know one or two years, I mean for the last four decades.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know it hasn't been an easy battle but she is the the the one force that the regime can't reckon with and has to um and you know it's very liberating to see that and uh inspiring too and I think that the fact that she she has been able to lead this movement despite all the obstacles um it has really allowed us to grow as a movement.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um and that is what we're seeing and I think that's what the regime fears a lot because like for instance all the Secretary generals of the People's Majority Organization of Iraq since nineteen eighty nine till today have a woman and that's up against a misogynist regime.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it has a message for you know the people and it's really like a hundred and eighty degrees opposite on everyone.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that is what people feel like they can trust and that's why they're willing to make such sacrifices.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: As I said we know that no one's going to hand us freedom in the soil platter but we are willing to pay that time and so it's time to allow the people of Ryround to take their destiny into their own hands because no one has that right other than people who got and democracies can't be installed.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's been proven time and time again how poetic would it be to have a woman led movement be the be the thing that tops the ayatole and the the Arkansas that um I am pulling for that so hard totally because that that's like you know that is um pure justice conversion well uh if people want to find out more about you and uh more about this uh movement how how can they do that?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well you could visit nc-iran.org for to learn more about the National Council of Existence of Iran which is like the umbrella group in Parliament in exile and to learn more about May Majabi because her viewpoint I think is very interesting for most to learn about um you can visit myam dash um Iran dot uh sorry myam dash major or miammaj.com and if you would like to become active wherever you are um with the Iranians who are working right now they could really use every support that they can get in these critical times.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're in the US you could reach out to Organization of Iranian American communities that's oiac.org they have chapters in over 40 states and you've probably covered there.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: They do a lot of activity on the ground in different areas but also in capital and if you are outside of the US you could reach out to Iran Freedom dot org and they could put you in contact with a local chapter Zalal this has been so fascinating.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for your time and thank you for acting out with me.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much Adam it was a pleasure to be with you and um enjoyed the conversation