Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / The Renaissance Explained: History Of The Medici, Popes, And Florence | Prof. Kenneth Bartlett

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The Renaissance Explained: History Of The Medici, Popes, And Florence | Prof. Kenneth Bartlett · The Smart Cookies podcast

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Kenneth Bartlett is a Renaissance historian and
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professor at the University of Toronto. He's
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also the author of a number of fantastic books,
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such as A Short History of the Italian Renaissance,
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Florence in the Age of the Medici and Savonarola,
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and The Renaissance in Italy, A History. Professor,
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welcome to the program. My pleasure to be here,
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Zaza. Since I'm not exactly a scholar of the
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period, the easiest way for me to define the
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Renaissance in my mind, and I don't think I'm
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the only one here, is to contrast it with the
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medieval era, specifically the Dark Ages vision
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of the era, a time filled with witch burnings,
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crusades, inquisition trials, and people throwing
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feces out of their windows in big buckets before
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this sort of veil is suddenly lifted and people...
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rediscover reason and beauty, thus kind of ushering
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in a sort of a never -ending Prosecco party during
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which people write ingenious books and marvel
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at amazing art. Am I on the right track here?
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Well, yes and no. First of all, the Middle Ages
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weren't dark. They were highly rational, just
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based upon a different set of assumptions. And
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there was really a movement into a new way of
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interpreting concepts like human agency and the
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role of the individual in society and the concept
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of the self -created individual. In the Middle
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Ages, it wasn't a question of darkness, and there
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was an inquisition through the Renaissance, so
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that's not an issue. But the difference was,
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I think, in essence, that the Middle Ages were
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God -centered. It was a theocentric universe
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in which... The whole purpose of life was to
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justify God's plan for man. But with the coming
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of the Renaissance, in particular the recovery
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of classical antiquity, a new set of ideas began
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to animate Europeans. And those ideas really
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developed from ancient ideas, ideas that preceded
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the advent of Christianity. And so had very,
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very deep... roots in the european psyche one
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of the reasons that we come together as a society
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is to try and make life on earth more beautiful
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more effective more rational and policy then
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the idea of political organization the world
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of machiavelli can develop from this because
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for the really since for the first time since
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antiquity there was a sense that human beings
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had agency and could control themselves and their
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world. And that allowed for experimentation and
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to try and find better ways to not only define
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experience, but also to build a society that
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would institutionalize that experience. One of
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the first interviews I ever did for this podcast
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was with Professor Nieto Isabel, who's a scholar
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of women's spirituality in the Middle Ages. And
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during our conversations, she said, yes, pretty
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much like you, medieval Europe. does get a lot
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of bad press. But surprisingly, a lot of that
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is Hollywood slander. She said that women, for
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example, enjoyed a much higher degree of liberty
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and autonomy back then than they did during the
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Renaissance, when the extremely suffocating gender
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roles of the Roman Empire kind of returned in
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a way. So I suppose, like you said, it wasn't
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all black and white like that. Right, right.
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No, no, she was absolutely right. During the
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Middle Ages, women had... the right to control
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their own property. Very often they could inherit
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and they could run businesses on their own. But
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with the recovery of ancient ideas about women
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and the role of women in society, a lot of these
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structures began to fray. And it became a much,
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much more male -dominated society once more.
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Before we really dive in, I just wanted to ask,
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what general state sort of was Europe? in during
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the late Middle Ages? Well, it depends on where
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you're talking about. It's hard to generalize
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about the continent because circumstances were
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so different. If you look at Eastern Europe,
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at the Kingdom of Poland, it's a completely different
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world from the Kingdom of Sicily, different yet
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again from the Kingdom of England, and different
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yet again from, let's say, the small city states
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of the Holy Roman Empire. So it depends on what
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you're talking about. And what there was, though,
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is the growing wealth in the continent altogether.
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And this was particularly true in Italy because
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of the role of Italy, its geography sticking
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into the Mediterranean. The entrepôt between
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East and West and whatever long -distance trade
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continued, even during those so -called Dark
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Ages, that is the 7th, 8th, 9th centuries, took
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place through Italy. So there was always trade
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in Italy. But by the time we reach the 15th century
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in most of Europe, urban life, economic life,
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the idea of even social mobility lubricated by
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wealth. became ideas that could be discussed
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and in some cases actually realized. So it varied
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from place to place. But generally speaking,
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most of Europe was getting wealthier because
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of the recovery of long distance trade, urban
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life, which focused wealth in towns and cities.
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means of communication, roads, harbors that allowed
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trade to happen and consequently people to move
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around, and a sense that there is a possibility
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of social mobility simply because wealth wasn't
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only determined by the sheets between which you
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were born and the wealth that you inherited,
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which was largely landed wealth. So change was
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happening everywhere in Europe. But really things
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were focused in Italy where these things happened
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first. So the Renaissance began in the 15th century
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in Florence, which was just one of... Well, it
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began earlier than that, actually. I'd say that
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it really began in the 14th century in Florence
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and in Italy. And the reasons for that, again,
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are largely economic and allowed for the recovery
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of antiquity. First of all, Italy was unlike
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the rest of Europe. Urban life never died. There
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were always cities because there were bishops.
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Bishops ruled from cities and they were so close
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to Rome that it was quite possible for the Pope
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to grant bishop status in even the relatively
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small cities. Secondly, long -distance trade
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and even local trade was facilitated in Italy
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because of... the tradition of Roman law, the
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roads that were still there from antiquity and
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still functioning, and the growth of what really
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amounted to long -distance trade as a consequence
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of the Crusades. Because think about the geography
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of Europe. When the first crusade was called
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in 1095, the end of the 11th century, How were
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those knights, that surplus population of people
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who fought on horseback from all over Europe,
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going to get to the Levant to fight in Jerusalem?
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How were they going to get there? The Italians
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took them there, right? Exactly. And because
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the Italians had the ships, they had the navigational
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experience of sailing in the Mediterranean, sailing
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in the Adriatic, so on. So the wealth of Europe.
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was to a degree funneled into the four great
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maritime republics of Italy, Amalfi, Genoa, Pisa,
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and Venice. So all of these Europeans, in order
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to fight in the Holy Land, had to pass through
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Italy. And then, of course, there were then all
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the secondary benefits. They bought armor, they
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bought horses, they took servants, they stayed
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a while and enjoyed the city. And when they left,
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Italian ships took them and Italians largely
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provided whatever continuing connections, you
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know, the logistical connections necessary for
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an expeditionary force on the other side of the
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Mediterranean. So Italians became very, very
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wealthy as a consequence. And this wealth had
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an enormous effect because it meant that more
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and more Italians were freed by independent means
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from the traditions of the supremacy of birth.
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You could, in a generation or two, enter the
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nobility simply by acquiring wealth, buying an
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estate and so on. It also allowed for the need
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for new ideas. And in particular, if you're going
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to take an army across the Mediterranean, you
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need contracts. So you need to be able to write
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enforceable contracts. And secular education
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never died in Italy because of the continuation
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of trade. So there were lawyers and notaries
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who could do that. And then also there were the
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banking mechanisms that the Italians began to
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develop to move large amounts of money. So everyone
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knows where there is a bank, there is profit.
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Wherever there's profit, there is social mobility
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and there's a concentration of wealth that allows
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for things like more leisure. And in particular...
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The use of wealth to acquire what sociologists
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called caste marks. Things that gave you status,
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but not based on birth. So in the Middle Ages,
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your place in society was largely determined
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by what family you were born into. Noble landowning
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families could produce generations of natural
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leaders. But what about those who made their
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own wealth, who began to acquire power in their
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cities? who became bankers and long -distance
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merchants. What was their status? Well, they
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determined their status by commissioning great
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palaces, by paying for cathedrals in their city,
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by commissioning art in order to be associated
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with an elite. So these were the things that
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gave rise to the Renaissance. And behind them
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all, the belief that the individual could determine
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his own... place in society. He wasn't restricted
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by birth, by geography, by anything. He could
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make his own way. And then this produced the
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concept of the self -actualized individual, the
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person with agency. And once you have this, you
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have got, in fact, a whole new dynamic that begins
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to energize society. New ideas from new people
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reading different books. in order to learn how
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to run cities how to become merchants and how
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to live a good life outside the dictates of the
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church and the clergy that is sort of crazy uh
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because we talked about the crusades a lot on
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this podcast but i didn't know such lofty profits
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were made from this dubious enterprise so that's
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really interesting but by the way Why did the
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Renaissance begin in Florence specifically? Why
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not one of these great maritime powers that you
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mentioned? You know, that is a very, very good
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question because Florence isn't a seaport. It's
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not on a Roman road. It's inland on a river that
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is a raging torrent in the winter and a muddy
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stream in the summer. It was a consequence really
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of skill. And the skill was the ability to take
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high quality wool and use that wool to produce
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the very, very finest woolen cloth in Europe
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and to dye it dramatic colors. So from this and
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the profit that was made, the wool merchants
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in Florence set up shops right across the continent,
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many in Italy, Naples and Rome. in the north.
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And because of these connections, they were able
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then to take surplus profit and then use that
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surplus profit to lend to those nobles or those
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kings who were trying to build dynastic monarchies
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or doing whatever. And they naturally then became
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bankers. So Florence, because of a skill set,
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really developed wealth. The second thing is
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that Florence was loyal to the papacy. It was
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the leading Guelph, that is, pro -papal city.
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The city that first developed international economic
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activity, Siena, just 100 kilometers away, was
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a Ghibelline city associated with the emperor.
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And so the pope didn't altogether trust them.
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So Florence became then not just a banking center,
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not just a wool production center. But it also
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became the Pope's and Church's banking center.
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And that meant that much of the wealth of all
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of Europe filtered through Florentine banks and
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was transferred to Rome. And this huge profit,
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like banks always make huge profits, these huge
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profits allowed for the experimentation that
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I've described, experimenting with new ideas,
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with new books, with new cast marks, with new
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concepts of architecture and painting. By the
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way, what kind of colors did they do? Because
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you said that they had a special technique and
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that the colors were wild. I'm just wondering
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what kind of sassy colors were they doing? One
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family in Florence, the Rucciolai, made its fortune
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through the production of red dye that could
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only be produced in Florence, actually made from
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crushing a beetle. But you could get enough beetles
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to produce enough fine quality cloth to make
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sure that the backs of nobles were covered. So
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wealthy Europeans were buying them like hotcakes.
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Yeah. And the Crusades helped with this as well.
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Because when those crusaders from their cold,
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drafty castles in Lithuania and Scotland suddenly
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found themselves in Jerusalem or Acre, they saw
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another world. And they became accustomed to
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wearing silk, to having fine knives and blades
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from Damascus, to eating oranges, to have carpets.
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So they became used to these things. And of course,
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the Italians who brought them over then took
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advantage of the fact that their ships returned
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empty. And the galleys of the Mediterranean during
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the late Middle Ages and Renaissance were very,
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very wide beamed, shallow draft boats that required
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a lot of ballast in order to be stable. So what
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did they do? Well, the first ones, the Pisans,
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filled the boats full of the... topsoil from
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Jerusalem so that the peasants would be the first
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to rise to heaven when the last trumpet was sounded.
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Well, that didn't prove to be very useful. So
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they began bringing back silks, spices, carpets,
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slaves, almost anything that would have a luxury
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market in Europe. And the result is that certainly
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by the middle of the 14th century, Italy was
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developing a virtual monopoly in luxury trade.
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And then you add to it the fact that merchants
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everywhere at all times are ruthless, and Italian
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merchants were particularly ruthless. And the
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Fourth Crusade in 1204, Baldwin of Flanders and
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his crusaders reached Venice, but they didn't
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have enough money to get to the Holy Land. So
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they went to the Doge. Enrico Dandolo, and said,
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you know, what are we going to do? He said, well,
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tell you what, I'll make you a deal. If I can
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use your army, first of all, to capture Zara,
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which had revolted against Venetian rule, and
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then we'll destroy it and, you know, serve them
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right. But then why don't we sail and capture
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Constantinople? Why not? And Baldwin said, you
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know, if we have a chance to kill people, let's
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do this. So the Fourth Crusade, one of the most
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despicable acts of the 13th century, showed the
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Venetian ships taking a crusading army to capture
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the Christian capital of the Byzantine Empire,
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the city founded by Constantine, the emperor
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who recognized Christianity as a leading religion.
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And for two generations, Baldwin of Flanders
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and his son ruled as emperors of Constantinople.
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But the Venetians got from this a quarter plus
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a half of a quarter of Byzantine territory. Venetians
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weren't interested in colonizing. They set up
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fortified trading posts in the islands of the
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eastern Mediterranean and on the Greek mainland
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and other places that allowed them to protect
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and keep that long distance trade to the east.
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So the Italians were quite, quite skilled at
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using other people's money and time, other people's
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lives and soldiers, in order to further their
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own interests. It's so hard to imagine, isn't
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it? I'm from Slovenia originally, which is next
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to Venice. So I went there a bunch. And it's
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just such a cute little city. It's really hard
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to imagine that once it was this scary maritime
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empire, almost stretching. The greatest maritime
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power in the Mediterranean. And was until the
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latter part of the 17th century. Yeah. And now
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it's a tourist. It's essentially a tourist city.
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Yeah. Last time I was there, I was just standing
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on one of the alleys and like surrounded by tourists
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and none of us could move at all. It was like
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some sort of weird amusement. Just wait. The
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same thing will happen to Ljubljana in the very
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near future. It is a very attractive city with
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great restaurants and it's very easy to get to.
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Really? You think so? I think it's a bit boring.
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That's why I'm not there. No, no. I loved it.
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I think it was wonderful. They have great restaurants.
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It's a lovely city. It's safe. And you can get
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there. So we were there from, entered it both
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from Croatia and from Italy. I was just saying
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it's boring. So I would fish more compliments
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out of you and I totally succeeded. Thank you
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very much. All right. So like you mentioned,
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the big sort of propulsion jet of the movement
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of the Renaissance was this discovery or rediscovery
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of classic. Latin and Greek texts, wasn't it?
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But from my understanding, the vast majority
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of these were already in Europe, safely stashed
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away in monastic libraries. One of my favorite
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medieval films is The Name of the Rose, based
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on the novel from Umberto Eco. I'm sure you've
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seen it. It's a bunch of fatty monks killing
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each other because of a hidden Aristotle's manuscript.
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The film is fictional. However... That much was
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true, right? The church was already in possession
20:11
of these texts. But people didn't read them.
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Books serve the intellectual community that requires
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an intellectual structure in order to justify
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what they do and how they do it. So in the Middle
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Ages, when you're looking to justify the ways
20:34
of God to man, you're not going to read Lucretius'
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De Rerum Natura, because it says you can't, and
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we're all atoms, and there's an infinite number
20:44
of universes out there. So you try and suppress
20:46
books like that, but fortunately, one or two
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copies survive. The Forensic Orations of Cicero.
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Why use them when, in fact, they deal with a
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world that... is just not relevant. Partly, it
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happened in two stages. The first was the so
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-called Renaissance of the 12th century, when
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Europeans needed some of that ancient wisdom.
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They needed the philosophy that undergirded Christian
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theology. And interestingly enough, Aristotle
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proved to be the most perfect way of doing this
21:24
because of his highly logical structure. And
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they got it, interestingly enough, not directly
21:29
from Greek texts, but from the Arabs who had
21:32
translated it and kept it. The other is that
21:36
they needed law because by the 12th century,
21:39
urban life was increasing, trade was expanding,
21:43
and the law follows trade. You have to have enforceable
21:47
contracts. You've got to have standard weights
21:49
and measures. You have to have a law that pertains
21:53
to everybody at all times. So Roman law was recovered
21:57
and Justinian's code became the basis for European
22:04
law codes, which it remains to this day in many
22:07
instances. So there was need of these things.
22:11
But in terms of literature, well, you would read
22:15
Ovid, but you would moralize Ovid into a series
22:18
of Christian stories. You would... not teach
22:22
all of the metamorphoses because they were considered
22:27
somewhat scandalous. So you would turn them into
22:30
Christian allegories. The poetry of Catullus,
22:34
not really read at all. The Aeneid was seen as
22:39
the coming of the Christian empire because in
22:43
order for Christianity to spread across the world,
22:45
the Roman empire had to be formed. Aeneas leaving
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Troy was the guy who started the whole process.
22:55
And Virgil was believed to be like an Old Testament
22:58
prophet. Because in his fourth eclogue, he seemed
23:02
to foretell the coming of Christ. So Virgil was
23:05
given a special place. So all of these ancient
23:08
texts that were useful were there. And they were
23:11
read. And there were commentaries on them. But
23:14
they weren't used for the purpose for which they
23:16
were written. And that is glorifying erotic love
23:21
on earth, glorifying individual freedom of the
23:26
idea of Aeneas, that hero who first from the
23:30
shores of Troy came to Italy. They were used
23:34
for different purposes. And the difference was
23:36
that with the recovery of ancient texts by Renaissance
23:41
scholars. They were applied to the needs of Renaissance
23:46
men and some women whose needs were much closer
23:51
and whose lives were much more similar to the
23:55
ancient world. And there was a problem. And the
23:59
problem was so huge and seemingly insoluble that
24:04
it was largely ignored for a thousand years.
24:06
And that is the great writers of antiquity. were
24:12
largely pagan. And in a Christian world, what
24:16
does that make what they wrote? Many early fathers
24:20
of the church, like Tertullian, suggested that
24:22
all ancient literature should be destroyed. Because
24:26
it was pagan? No, because it was so beautiful
24:29
and so profound, it made you love this life too
24:32
much, and not just work towards the next, which
24:35
is why you were on earth. pagan problem and the
24:39
paganism of ancient literature was a seemingly
24:44
insurmountable wall that Europe could not cross.
24:51
But then along comes Petrarch, you know, one
24:54
of my heroes and so many others. I mean, as a
24:56
human being, he'd have driven me crazy, but as
24:58
a scholar and an individual, he was quite wonderful.
25:03
He, in studying Cicero in particular, reached
25:07
a conclusion and that is yes reading cistra will
25:11
not help you get to heaven it will not reinforce
25:14
your christian belief but it'll help you be a
25:18
better person and lead your life on earth according
25:22
to better ethical principles and you will live
25:26
this life more humanely so he said look let us
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read these people and let us take their lessons
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and use them here on earth and let's ensure the
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church will get us to heaven. Because pagan literature
25:40
won't help, but pagan literature will give us
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not only a guide for life, but enormous pleasure.
25:46
Because the words are so beautiful, and the poetry
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is so profound, and the ideas are so stimulating.
25:55
Is that why Dante's guide in the afterlife, Virgil,
26:00
is not in hell, but is in purgatory. He can't
26:02
quite get to heaven because he's a pagan. No,
26:05
because he is a justified pagan, because he's
26:08
still a pagan. He had no knowledge of Christ.
26:10
That's an elegant solution, isn't it? Well, Dante
26:13
chose him because of his role as like an Old
26:18
Testament prophet, because he was believed to
26:21
be able to foretell the future and was almost
26:25
like... a prophet of the Old Testament, because
26:28
the prophets didn't know Christ either. But they
26:32
were able to talk about the pact between God
26:37
and the Jews being fulfilled in Christ. So Virgil
26:40
could do essentially the same sorts of things.
26:42
But he couldn't get to heaven. That required
26:44
Beatrice to get Dante up there. By the way, you
26:48
said that Petrarch would have driven you crazy
26:50
as a person. Because he was... He was the guy
26:55
you sat next to in a transatlantic flight or
26:57
the guy you sat next to at a wedding who only
27:00
talks about himself and never shuts up. He was
27:04
so self -absorbed, everything. I mean, and the
27:07
self -absorption was profound and had an enormous
27:10
effect on the European imagination. So when he
27:13
found himself hopelessly in love with Laura,
27:17
if he really had been hopelessly in love with
27:21
Laura, What did he do? He wrote the Canzoniere,
27:24
a series of poems. The poems aren't about love.
27:29
Poems aren't about Laura. The poems are about
27:32
Petrarch in love. He's the perpetual adolescent.
27:36
He's the guy that you knew at middle school who,
27:39
at his locker, the head cheerleader walked by,
27:44
dropped her book, picked it up. passed it to
27:47
her, their fingertips touched for a nanosecond,
27:49
and then he spent the rest of the day talking
27:52
to everybody about this experience and the night
27:55
on the telephone because it changed his life.
27:58
And what Petrarch did is to justify human agency
28:03
and human experience and made these things valuable
28:07
in themselves. So things that do not necessarily
28:11
lead you to God and salvation can have value.
28:16
And that was the huge contribution that Petrarch
28:18
made. And that's why in my books, I say he really
28:21
was the first Renaissance man, because he began
28:24
this process of self -analysis, of the idea of
28:28
being able to control your own life and use the
28:30
experience of your life to animate others. He
28:36
reminds me of myself, minus the talent, to be
28:38
honest. All right. Perhaps. The most famous association
28:43
we all have when the period is mentioned is not
28:47
just art, but art that was groundbreaking. And
28:50
so I wanted to ask you a couple of things, actually.
28:53
Number one, was that true? And if it was, could
28:56
you elaborate a bit on the key kind of major
28:59
differences between the art that was made before
29:01
to the art that was made during the Renaissance?
29:05
Sure, sure, sure. And it is true because art
29:09
and architecture. reflect the ideas that I've
29:12
been discussing exactly. So when you think about
29:15
the Middle Ages and the glory of medieval architecture,
29:18
the great cathedrals at Chartres, for example,
29:21
these are magnificent, wonderful buildings, but
29:24
they were designed to indicate the power and
29:27
glory of God and make you as a human being feel
29:29
insignificant in the face of this power. Renaissance
29:33
architecture. inspired by a classical text which
29:37
was rediscovered at the beginning of the 15th
29:39
century, Vitruvius' Ten Books on Architecture,
29:42
used human proportions, the proportions of the
29:46
human body and the experience of Roman buildings
29:51
as a way of defining how space should be enclosed
29:55
and volumes of space. So there's a fundamental
29:59
difference. Great buildings of the Middle Ages
30:02
are, again, like the literature and social structure
30:06
and everything, God -centered. The buildings
30:08
of the Renaissance are man -centered. And if
30:11
you look at some of the most wonderful of these
30:13
buildings, the Pazzi Chapel, for example, by
30:16
Brunelleschi in Florence, or the old sacristy
30:21
of San Lorenzo, they're almost like suits of
30:24
clothes. They're small buildings. You wear them,
30:27
and the mind is engaged. The Renaissance art
30:31
and architecture engages the eye and the mind.
30:34
So you're in a building like the Pazzi Chapel
30:36
or the Old Sacristy, and you see the five platonic
30:39
solids. You see the use of geometry being made
30:44
manifest by the way the building is constructed.
30:47
And geometry, including in the Middle Ages, was
30:51
seen as the language of God. Because that's why
30:54
God is often portrayed, including in the Middle
30:56
Ages, right up to William Blake. as a great geometer
31:00
with his compass creating the universe. Why?
31:03
Well, because the square and the hypotenuse will
31:06
always be equal to the square and the other two
31:08
sides, regardless who you are, where you are,
31:11
how often you do it. It's a universal absolute
31:14
truth. So this was seen as a parallel to the
31:18
universal absolute truth, which is the revealed
31:20
truth of religion. So the mind is engaged. You
31:24
look at the space and it's there. The other is
31:28
the recovery of the idea of humanity itself.
31:32
If you say a person with agency, an independent,
31:38
individual, self -created person has significance
31:42
and can make a contribution to his community,
31:46
you want to know what he looks like. So exact
31:50
portraiture begins to develop. Correct anatomy
31:53
to indicate that you have an idea of... that
31:56
the human body is something to be celebrated
31:59
rather than something to be ashamed of because
32:01
of original sin. You begin to think of linear
32:06
perspective, of being able to put an object in
32:10
the context of space and make it correct. And
32:14
just as an aside, you couldn't have the voyages
32:16
of discovery in cartography unless you have the
32:19
rediscovery of linear perspective. Because how
32:22
do you draw a map with correct... spatial reference
32:26
unless you can do this mathematically. And by
32:30
the time you reach Leo Batista Alberti's and
32:33
Della Pittura, you have got it turned into a
32:37
mathematical formula of how to achieve this.
32:40
So Renaissance artists wanted to reproduce what
32:44
the eye sees, and they validated it. That human
32:47
experience through the shared vocabulary of what
32:53
you see is significant. Petrarch made the contribution
32:56
that your words matter. Petrarch wrote things
33:00
like, words can have no dignity unless the soul
33:03
has dignity. There's no doubt but that we can
33:05
be of great value to others through our words.
33:08
But words are limited. Because I can describe
33:12
a landscape to you, but do you see what I describe?
33:16
No. You think of it quite differently. But if
33:19
I painted a landscape for you, you would understand
33:22
it completely. And if I made the trees and the
33:25
plants exact reproductions of what I saw, you
33:29
would be able to place that in space and probably
33:32
in the season so that you know that human experience
33:37
can be transmitted through art and what the eye
33:43
sees and through painting, through portraiture
33:46
and all those other things. We all know some
33:50
of the big household names of the masters associated
33:52
with Renaissance art, because if nothing else,
33:55
we've seen Ninja Turtles as kids. But on a more
33:58
serious note, were these guys and gals already
34:01
celebrated while they were alive? Was Michelangelo,
34:05
for example, already a rock star? Sure. Absolutely.
34:08
Absolutely. And he also had the great advantage
34:10
of living a very, very long time. So when Julius
34:14
II wanted to have his tomb built and ultimately
34:17
when he wanted to have the ceiling of his uncle's
34:20
chapel, the Sistine painted, called on number
34:24
one, the guy who was the guy who was the best.
34:26
And ultimately, Paul III said. I want you to
34:30
build a dome because the dome that was designed
34:33
by Bramante is going to be too shallow. You've
34:36
got to do something else. These were the go -to
34:38
guys because they were recognized as genius.
34:41
Genius was recognized because of what I've talked
34:45
about already. The example of the remarkable
34:50
individual who can take his own experience and
34:55
translate it into a broader... a vocabulary of
35:00
experience for others. So painting, Raphael became
35:05
a real rock star. And if he hadn't died young,
35:08
he might very well have been made a cardinal.
35:12
He was treated like a prince. Brunelleschi was
35:18
seen as a most remarkable genius in building
35:21
the Dome and the Duomo in Florence. All of these
35:26
people were recognized for what they could do.
35:29
And I've, again, written elsewhere that the thing
35:32
about getting the best artist, the best architect,
35:36
to build your cathedral, to build your parish
35:38
church, to paint the ceiling of your palace,
35:41
was war by other means. It was a way of making
35:45
your city more preeminent, more famous, because
35:49
of its cathedral, because of its painting. City
35:53
-states of Italy were always in a state of competition.
35:56
If they weren't fighting wars with one another,
35:58
they were trying to get the best artists and
36:00
architects in order to celebrate the governments
36:03
that were there. And where did the money for
36:06
all of this marvelous art come from? The surplus
36:10
wealth from trade. So we go back again to what
36:13
really started it. Oscar Wilde was right. Art
36:16
is useless. You can't live in it. You can't eat
36:19
it. It is something that speaks to our essential
36:25
humanity as going beyond the necessities of life.
36:28
So when trade began to produce huge fortunes,
36:32
and especially when individuals needed cast marks
36:36
to put them in a hierarchy to which they were
36:40
not born, one of the best ways of doing it would
36:43
be to patronize great art. And that is one of
36:46
the things that happened. So individuals patronized
36:50
artists, families patronized artists, cities
36:53
and rulers patronized artists and architects
36:57
all the time because it was a way of indicating
37:00
their reputazione, their reputation, their honor,
37:05
their dignity. And they became then the followers
37:09
and the companions of princes. Say you were an
37:15
up -and -coming artist during this period. How
37:19
would you go about getting your first commission?
37:22
Well, the first thing is that you would hope
37:25
that your father or whoever decided to apprentice
37:30
you to a workshop chose a really, really famous
37:33
workshop. So Leonardo da Vinci was apprenticed
37:39
to Verrocchio. And Michelangelo was brought into
37:44
the sculpture school of Lorenzo di Medici in
37:48
Palazzo Medici in Florence. You were apprenticed
37:52
and you worked together with a master and the
37:55
other apprentices. And if you were good enough,
37:58
you were able then to eventually leave and start
38:02
your own bottega, your own shop, and get apprentices
38:06
of your own. But it was a highly competitive
38:09
business. It was incredibly competitive. So there
38:12
are all kinds of people whose names we don't
38:15
know because they didn't make it. So it's like
38:18
Little League baseball. There are all kinds of
38:21
kids who go out there and they expect to play
38:24
for the Toronto Blue Jays, but most of them end
38:27
up not. And that's why painters like Leonardo
38:31
da Vinci didn't work well in this system. Because
38:34
he took too long. He was never satisfied with
38:38
his work. He couldn't fulfill a contract. So
38:41
it was much better for him to go to Milan and
38:44
the court of Lodovico del Moro, the region of
38:48
Milan, and work at a court. Because there was
38:51
not the same kind of pressure and time, making
38:54
sure you got things done. So you really had to
38:58
put your genius in the right kind of environment.
39:01
It's like now. If you are a really, really talented
39:07
engineer, the last thing you want to do is to
39:11
work in fabric production because you're just
39:16
not very good at it. So you have to choose the
39:19
right environment. And the artist had to make
39:23
sure that when he opened his own Bottega, that
39:27
he would be able to fulfill the contracts that
39:29
would be given him. And he had an idea already.
39:32
the sorts of things he wanted to do. Most of
39:35
the commissions were ecclesiastical for churches
39:38
and convents and monasteries. And that was fine
39:41
because that was the bread and butter work of
39:44
all of these workshops. And the other is that
39:47
places like Florence, because of its wealth,
39:50
had so many of these workshops and they were
39:53
of such high quality that it became a center
39:57
for a magnet for attracting people from all across
40:02
Italy and in some ways all across Europe in order
40:07
to work there and acquire these skills. So it
40:10
added to that reputazione of Florence as well
40:15
because of its wealth, the number of the Botteghe
40:17
and the sure mass of commissions that were available
40:22
and the quality of the people working on them
40:26
and producing them. Speaking of money, we can't
40:30
get past the ultimate Florentine bigwigs of the
40:34
day, the notorious Medici clan. You've already
40:36
mentioned them. How did this family of modest
40:40
wool traders and bankers end up not only controlling
40:43
the city and bankrolling the art scene, but also
40:46
producing a number of popes and even two French
40:49
queens? Two French queens, yeah, exactly. Well,
40:53
in part, it was extremely good management, and
40:56
of course, always under these circumstances,
40:58
a little bit of luck as well. The real founder
41:04
of the family fortune, Giovanni de' Bici, the
41:06
father of Cosimo the Elder, made his fortunes
41:11
through connections with the papacy. He was the
41:14
pope's banker in Rome, and the Rome office made
41:18
an enormous amount of money. Giovanni de' Bici
41:22
wasn't interested in politics at all. He just
41:24
wanted to make money. So he ensured that his
41:28
son would be trained in political skills and
41:32
to have the necessary connections in order to
41:36
have a political role. Because if you have no
41:39
political footprint in a place like Renaissance
41:42
Florence, you're always exposed. You're always
41:45
in danger. Because your enemies could get control
41:48
of the signoria and they could increase your
41:50
rate of taxation. They could say that you were
41:52
behind in paying your taxes. So you would lose
41:57
your civic rights and privileges. So he knew
42:01
that he had to protect the family's wealth politically.
42:04
So he trained Cosimo the Elder to do this. And
42:08
he became so successful that he ultimately caused
42:13
the... jealousy of the great families running
42:18
the oligarchy that controlled Florence up until
42:22
1434. And they tried to, well, there was a show
42:30
trial. They wanted to execute him, but the Pope
42:33
and others and the Duke of Ferrara said, you
42:35
better not do that. So they exiled him forever.
42:38
But he... put his wealth in the hands of ecclesiastical
42:42
institutions and in the name of members of his
42:44
family and friends. So when the oligarchy pushed
42:49
it a little bit too far, the popular rebellion
42:51
that they had so feared came about, and Cosimo
42:55
was invited back to the city in 1434 and became,
42:59
in effect, the ruler of the city. But he wasn't
43:02
ruler as a prince in any way whatsoever. He was
43:06
a behind -the -scenes manipulator. He only held
43:09
office when he was elected. He did not act like
43:13
a prince in any way whatsoever. He just made
43:16
sure that he controlled the committee that determined
43:19
who was eligible for public office. And that
43:22
meant he could decide how many supporters he
43:26
wanted on any commission. And he was brilliant
43:29
at it. He used his private fortune. to beautify
43:31
the city, to make non -repayable loans. He built
43:36
up a faction by making loans to poor people and
43:41
saying in the best godfather tradition, you know,
43:44
don't worry about repaying me, but if I need
43:46
a favor, I know whom to ask. So he did very,
43:50
very well indeed. And when he died in 1464, He
43:57
was really, truly lamented. And he was given
44:00
the title, the same one that Cicero held, Pater
44:02
Patriae, the father of his people. And that's
44:05
on his tomb by Veracchio in front of the altar
44:08
in the Church of San Lorenzo. If I can be a bit
44:12
crude, sounds like a mafia don a little bit.
44:15
Indeed, Italian politics, and that's even true
44:18
today. Still, there is this sense of... manipulating
44:25
situations so that you're going to end up on
44:28
top. There is an element of being a mafia don
44:30
in the Medici. Because you said that he was sort
44:35
of like a gray eminence in the background somewhere,
44:38
but I'm pretty sure he made it known that people
44:41
knew who's bankrolling these artists and who's
44:45
building this cathedral. And if you crossed him,
44:48
he also said... I don't think you should marry
44:53
your daughter to this guy because, you know,
44:56
he's on the outs politically. I don't think he's
44:58
going anywhere. It wouldn't be a good match.
45:02
And ultimately, he could ostracize any of his
45:07
enemies from office or from almost any role in
45:11
society. But he was so clever. He didn't do this
45:15
universally. There was no... Donald Trump wore
45:19
on my critics. He brought them into the government
45:22
because he said they have often useful ideas
45:24
and let's see if we can turn them around. If
45:28
they didn't turn around, if they remained recalcitrant,
45:31
sometimes he would just push them aside. He wouldn't
45:34
kill them. He would just economically damage
45:37
them in the best Italian tradition of increasing
45:39
their taxation. But, you know, most people come
45:43
around. There are very few heroes in the world,
45:47
as you probably know. The great pioneer of keep
45:52
your friends close and your enemies closer, I
45:54
suppose. Exactly, exactly. At the beginning of
45:58
our conversation, I kind of asked you if the
46:00
Renaissance was a sort of an endless summer picnic,
46:02
and you said it was very much not. And one of
46:05
the most intriguing episodes in its history,
46:07
one that is sort of illustrating this more of
46:11
an ambiguous reality full of... contradictory
46:14
currents is that of the infamous friar Savonarola,
46:17
who went against de' Medici. Since you wrote
46:20
an entire book about this episode, please do
46:23
tell us this story. It is a curious thing in
46:27
many ways. Florence, when Savonarola began to
46:31
achieve a following at the time of Lorenzo de'
46:37
Medici in the 1480s, he first of all had very
46:42
little traction. The first time he came to Florence,
46:45
he was a disaster. He had a funny accent from
46:48
Ferrara, and his doom and gloom didn't suit this
46:52
marvelous city that was just in such a splendid
46:57
situation. Excuse me, just for a bit of context,
47:01
who was he and what was he preaching about? He
47:03
was a Dominican monk from Ferrara. His grandfather
47:07
had been court physician, and he had a very,
47:10
very good education. But he had a very, very
47:13
dark vision. He saw the world as a fallen place.
47:18
And God was going to be angry. And the second
47:22
coming was going to be disastrous. But increasingly,
47:26
when he came to Florence a second time, his preaching
47:29
began to associate with some of the Renaissance
47:33
ideas that had developed during the golden age
47:37
of humanist learning. in Florence, because he
47:42
was extraordinarily smart. The tradition in Florence,
47:46
a tradition determined by especially Leonardo
47:49
Bruni, who was Chancellor of the Republic, was
47:52
that Florence was the new Rome or maybe the new
47:54
Athens. It was the place where freedom lived,
47:58
that Republican freedom gave agency to all of
48:02
the citizens, that you could be anything, you
48:04
could do anything. It always protected the freedom
48:07
of others. Well, Savonarola didn't see Florence
48:12
that way. He began to interpret Florence as the
48:16
new Jerusalem and that God had chosen Florence
48:21
for the second coming. But the Florentines, because
48:25
of their traditional vices and their taking money
48:29
at interest and their card playing and all of
48:32
the other things that they were doing, had to
48:34
be cleansed. And so increasingly, His sermons
48:38
became more and more histrionic against what
48:42
he considered sinful behavior. And he identified
48:46
much of this with Lorenzo de' Medici and with
48:49
the Medici control of the city. Because Lorenzo
48:53
was a very devout Christian, but he also wrote
48:58
obscene carnival songs, but then everybody did.
49:01
He enjoyed art. He enjoyed culture, enjoyed classical
49:05
learning, all of these things. And for Savonarola,
49:08
these things stood in the way of salvation and
49:11
they had to be taken out. And then as after the
49:16
Pazzi conspiracy, an attempt in 1479 to murder
49:20
Lorenzo and his brother by the Pazzi and by Pope
49:23
Sixtus IV. Lorenzo's personality changed a bit.
49:27
He became a little bit paranoid because his brother
49:30
had been murdered, a plot that he couldn't imagine
49:33
that took place in front of the high altar on
49:36
Easter in 1479. I mean, who and one of the attempted
49:42
murderers was a priest. I mean, this was serious
49:44
business. He became more paranoid and he began
49:48
distancing himself from. the Florentine people.
49:52
He also was sick. He probably had stomach cancer
49:55
because he died in his 40s. And it was easier
49:59
for Savonarola then to attack the Medici and
50:03
attack Lorenzo in person. And Savonarola, also
50:08
being such a good leader of the opposition, identified
50:12
those who had succeeded the least under this
50:16
humanistic republic. Women who were almost completely
50:20
outside of any public role. The poor, those who
50:25
were really devout Christians who had no interest
50:29
whatsoever in classical learning and pagan thought
50:32
and thought that these things were dangerous
50:34
to the youth of the city. He played to these
50:38
people and they followed him with a great deal
50:41
of devotion. And then finally, when Lorenzo died
50:44
in 1492 and his dim -witted son, Piero Fortunato,
50:51
who was every parent's nightmare, took over the
50:55
rule of the city, it was in a moment of incredible
50:58
crisis. Because in 1494, Charles VIII of France
51:02
invaded Italy to claim the crown of Naples, and
51:05
Piero wouldn't side with him, wouldn't oppose
51:10
him. And ultimately, Charles VIII made demands
51:13
on Piero that he instantly agreed to, despite
51:18
the humiliating circumstances. And that was enough
51:24
to drive the Medici out of Florence in 1494.
51:27
But the Medici had been so successful in destroying
51:31
the opposition that the only person with any
51:35
traction who could fill the vacuum left by the
51:39
expulsion of a Medici with savonarola sounds
51:42
like a bad idea yeah it was and uh he had a faction
51:46
of um they were called the snivellers uh the
51:50
piagnoni um because they would always cry and
51:53
snivel during his um during his sermons um they
51:57
put together a faction and um decided that they
52:01
were going to control the republic and this is
52:03
the beginning of that really really weird time
52:07
between 1495 and Savonarola's ultimate execution
52:11
in 1498 with the burning of the vanities, the
52:14
destruction of so much art and culture and classical
52:17
texts and musical instruments, false hair, cosmetics,
52:22
anything that gave the odor of vanity to the
52:28
city. He co -opted children. One of the first
52:33
rules of history is... distrust, actually fear
52:37
any regime that gives power to children, you
52:41
know, whether it's the Hitler Youth or whether
52:43
it's the Bands of Hope, where parents pledge
52:46
their children to Savonarola and they would dress
52:49
like angels and walk through the city and rip
52:51
the clothes off immodestly dressed women, which
52:54
of course was pointless from my perspective.
52:56
They'd break up card games. They would, then
52:59
Savonarola closed the brothels. It was a terrible
53:05
time in the city. But ultimately, he pushed it
53:08
too far. He promised more than he could give.
53:10
The economic situation became desperate. The
53:13
opposition became far more organized, especially
53:16
when Savonarola ordered the execution of some
53:19
very young patricians who were plotting against
53:22
him. So 1498, the ordeal by fire where... the
53:32
franciscans challenged savonarola and two other
53:34
dominicans to walk across hot coals to see which
53:38
ones could reach the end without burning so we're
53:41
talking about the end of the fifteenth century
53:42
this is simply bizarre but savonarola had no
53:46
choice but to agree they arranged to meet in
53:49
the piazza della signoria Everything was there.
53:52
But then, of course, the usual. You go first.
53:55
No, you go first. I don't like what you're wearing.
53:57
I think that cassock is probably made of asbestos.
53:59
No, no. Well, we all have to change into linen
54:01
sheets. All right. This went on so long and the
54:04
whole city had gathered to watch this event.
54:07
You would be there. I'd be there. I would totally
54:10
be there. Yeah. And then the heavens opened and
54:14
a heavy rainstorm put out the fire. And that
54:19
seemed to be the sign from God that Savonarola
54:22
was not his prophet, that he didn't have a red
54:24
telephone to God. So the mob went to his monastery
54:30
of San Marco. He was arrested. The leader of
54:35
his faction was murdered en route to make sure
54:39
that this was going to be a nice, clean job.
54:40
He was brought before two trials, one a trial.
54:47
in the church with a papal judge uh saying that
54:51
you know he's a heretic the other a civil trial
54:53
saying you've broken every law of the republic
54:56
you have no right to engage in politics because
54:58
you're a foreigner you're a priest he was found
55:01
guilty and so he was hanged in his body together
55:04
with his two closest followers burned and ashes
55:08
thrown in the in the uh in the in the arno So
55:11
it was a weird time because he represented a
55:14
rejection of all of the principles that had animated
55:19
Renaissance Florence. Except they were still
55:23
there. They were just twisted and turned. Florence
55:26
became the center of the universe again, but
55:29
God's choice for the second coming. It was the
55:32
place that was going to lead a great crusade
55:34
with... the emperor Charles with the King Charles
55:37
VIII in order to ultimately cleanse the church
55:40
and then go and fight a crusade and drive Islam
55:43
out of the Holy Land. All of these things gave
55:46
glory and honor to Florence. That's what people
55:49
expected. That's what they believed. He just
55:52
switched to a degree the frequency and turned
55:58
it a little bit more towards this religious fanaticism.
56:01
And he was... you know, for three years, very,
56:04
very successful. On the other hand, the Pope
56:07
that excommunicated Savonarola, I believe Alexander
56:10
VI, the Borgia, was reported to be as debauched
56:15
as Savonarola was pious. A lot of these Renaissance
56:18
Popes have a reputation of treating faith as
56:21
a sort of a pastime activity, a hobby, if you
56:24
will, and instead seem to be more busy with making
56:27
money, tending to mistresses and waging wars.
56:30
which some people say also ultimately leads to
56:33
the Reformation. Is there any truth to that?
56:35
Well, the first thing to note is that most of
56:39
these high ecclesiastics, cardinals who then
56:42
chose a pope from amongst them, had no clerical
56:46
vocation. They were given to the church because
56:48
they were surplus sons. They were second, third,
56:51
fourth sons of ruling families or very wealthy
56:54
families who needed a comfortable life. So they
56:58
had no vocation. So why should they embrace poverty,
57:03
chastity, and obedience? So no desire whatsoever.
57:07
So we can't think of the Renaissance Church the
57:10
way we think of Pope Francis and Leo XIV. It's
57:16
a completely different kind of structure and
57:19
organization. It essentially was a multinational
57:22
machine to deliver salvation at a price. It was
57:27
a multinational, the first great multinational.
57:30
So that's it. But some popes were worse than
57:33
others. And Alexander VI was amongst the worst.
57:37
He was probably the richest cardinal who ever
57:41
lived because his uncle, Calixtus III, made him
57:43
a cardinal when he was very young. And he took
57:46
a skim off every... a dollar that crossed his
57:53
desk. And then finally, with the death in 1492
57:57
of Innocent VIII, he said, I think it's time
58:00
for me to be pope. I'm going to buy it. So he
58:03
bribed cardinals with promises because he wasn't
58:07
the leading candidate. But if you have infinite
58:10
amounts of money, you can get almost anything
58:13
done. So he was elected pope. And his personal
58:17
life, he had a mistress, Venatza Captain A, known
58:21
as the Queen of Rome, who gave him four children,
58:24
two of whom were psychopaths, and one of whom
58:30
was a nice Spanish girl who did what she was
58:32
told and was overly randy. His eldest son, Juan,
58:37
was made captain general of the church. His second
58:40
son, Cesare, was made a cardinal in expectation
58:43
that he would be a future pope. And what's more,
58:47
Juan was so incompetent, the only thing Cesare
58:49
could do was to murder his brother and have his
58:52
father pop him out of the sacred college by remembering
58:56
that he was illegitimate. And so he could then
58:59
become captain general of a church, and he could
59:02
then try and build a Borgia kingdom out of the
59:04
states of the church, out of Romania. And he
59:10
was a psychopath. He loved killing people. He
59:12
loved doing horrible things. Horrible human being.
59:17
Lucrezia needed to be single. So her first marriage
59:22
to a member of the Sforza family was dissolved
59:26
by her father because it was unconsummated, despite
59:30
the fact that both parties said, oh, no, we consummated
59:32
the marriage. It was OK. Said, no, you didn't.
59:34
I'm the pope and you didn't do this. So poor
59:37
old Giovanni Sforza was sent off in order for
59:40
the humiliation of an Italian to say that you
59:42
didn't. consummate the marriage with this fabulously
59:45
beautiful blonde, blue -eyed girl. And then her
59:48
second husband, son of the King of Naples, the
59:51
Duke of Vesilia, was, you know, useful for a
59:55
while, but then he ceased being useful. So Cesare's
59:59
thugs, who didn't even bother to cover Cesare's
1:00:02
symbol on their cloaks, murdered him on the steps
1:00:05
of the Basilica of St. Peter. Not quite right.
1:00:08
They wounded him on the steps. And he was brought
1:00:11
into the Pope's chambers to be cared for by the
1:00:15
Pope's doctors. And sadly, he died overnight.
1:00:19
Just a terrible thing. Oh, my, my son -in -law
1:00:22
is dead. That's too bad. So anyway, then Lucrezia
1:00:24
was married to the Duke of Ferrara. And she was
1:00:28
a relatively successful Duchess of Ferrara until
1:00:31
she died. So we're talking about a totally dysfunctional
1:00:37
family that lived for power. And the sad thing
1:00:40
is that the power base of the Borgias, who weren't
1:00:43
even Italian, they were Spanish, was the papacy.
1:00:47
And when the Martin Luthers of this world saw
1:00:52
it, they were horrified because it was not the
1:00:56
way they thought Christ's vicar on earth should
1:00:58
act. Nobody probably thought that's the way Christ's
1:01:01
vicar on earth should act. But reformers were
1:01:04
there. And when Luther went to Rome, it was actually
1:01:09
in the pontificate of Leo X. He saw an incredible
1:01:15
amount of learning, great culture, wonderful
1:01:17
buildings. But he was looking for a kind of simple
1:01:20
piety that just wasn't there. The church is a
1:01:24
complicated business in Italy. It still is. It's
1:01:28
not just a question of faith. It's a question
1:01:29
of social cohesion, of cultural identification,
1:01:33
of all of these things. Martin Luther would never
1:01:37
get that. So was it the fault of papacy? No,
1:01:42
not really. They were just behaving the way popes
1:01:43
behaved. Was it the fault of Martin Luther? Well,
1:01:47
a little bit. He should have stayed home. So
1:01:50
what is the conclusion? Reformation probably
1:01:53
would have happened anyway for very, very clear
1:01:56
reasons. But it was probably hastened by the
1:01:59
anger that so many reformers saw in the Roman
1:02:04
church because it didn't correspond with their
1:02:07
own pietistic view of the way clerics are supposed
1:02:11
to act. You know, I wouldn't in a million years
1:02:15
attempt a career in the Catholic church. I'm
1:02:17
not even religious. But if I was alive during
1:02:19
the Renaissance era, I would have probably given
1:02:21
it a go. Sounds like a lot of fun. Well, I think
1:02:23
your parents, if they put you there, you would
1:02:26
make the most of it. When Leo X, the son of Lorenzo
1:02:30
the Magnificent, was elected improbably at the
1:02:32
age of 37, as Pope, he skipped out of the conclave,
1:02:36
saying, now that God has given us the papacy,
1:02:38
let's enjoy it. Words to live by. Last couple
1:02:43
of questions, really quick. Did ordinary people,
1:02:46
ordinary Florentines participate in or had anything
1:02:49
from all of this grand rejuvenation and art production
1:02:53
too? Or was it only for the elites? Yeah, it's
1:02:55
a very common and good question. And I've written,
1:02:59
yes, of course they did. Partly, simple people
1:03:03
are not stupid people. because they lacked the
1:03:07
education to read the Latin and Greek and take
1:03:11
part in the Platonic Academy discussions at the
1:03:15
Villa Careggi. But they were very well attuned
1:03:20
to visual culture. They would go into their parish
1:03:22
church. They'd see these new frescoes in the
1:03:25
new style. They would see linear perspective
1:03:27
and they would be moved. They knew that something
1:03:29
important was happening. and it made them proud.
1:03:33
They would buy paper woodcuts outside of churches
1:03:38
in the new style and stick them on the walls
1:03:41
of their simple houses. So yes, I think it did
1:03:45
affect them, not in the same way as it affected
1:03:47
the elite. So to think of the Renaissance as
1:03:50
an elite phenomenon, at its highest level, of
1:03:54
course it was, but all culture is elite. You
1:03:57
know, how many people have you met who actually
1:03:59
go to the opera? How many people have you met
1:04:02
actually buy paintings? Very, very few. So it's
1:04:07
always been an elite activity of people with
1:04:11
means. But that doesn't mean that you can't turn
1:04:14
on Saturday afternoon at the opera from the Met
1:04:17
and enjoy it on your radio. It doesn't mean you
1:04:20
can't go to the art gallery and enjoy the pictures
1:04:22
on the wall. And that's the way I think common
1:04:25
people in Florence experience the Renaissance.
1:04:29
Coming full circle in the end, that bit about
1:04:32
the Renaissance being a long Prosecco party.
1:04:35
There's some interesting scholarship about the
1:04:37
Renaissance that's been coming out recently.
1:04:39
Last year, historian Ada Palmer published a book
1:04:42
with the title Inventing the Renaissance, the
1:04:44
myth of a golden age in which she argues that
1:04:47
the golden era we associate with the period is
1:04:49
a total myth invented by later historians to
1:04:53
kind of further their own agendas. And then the
1:04:55
real history was much more desperate. even brutal.
1:04:59
Would you agree with this assessment? No, no,
1:05:01
it's essentially nonsense. You put four historians
1:05:03
in a room, you get five opinions. You can't get
1:05:07
anybody to agree on it. And of course, being
1:05:10
contrarian is a way of getting attention. So
1:05:13
if you just wrote another book on the Renaissance,
1:05:16
well, it's another book on the Renaissance. But
1:05:17
if he challenged the whole concept of the Renaissance,
1:05:20
that's a great way of getting attention. No,
1:05:23
I think that's absolute nonsense. Something fundamental
1:05:26
happened and shifted the baggage in the mind
1:05:31
of Europeans that allowed for the voyages of
1:05:35
discovery, that allowed for the scientific revolution.
1:05:38
Because unless you believe your own... and you're
1:05:43
able to reproduce what you see on a piece of
1:05:45
paper so others can check, you're not going to
1:05:48
have the scientific revolution. And that's what
1:05:49
the Renaissance provided, these skills. So, no,
1:05:53
I think it's nonsense. The same thing about the
1:05:55
ugly Renaissance. Yeah, sure, there are all sorts
1:05:57
of ugly things in the world. There are ugly things
1:05:59
in our world. But do we celebrate them? Only
1:06:03
if you've got an agenda. But most people try
1:06:07
and avoid the dead things in the road. But there
1:06:10
you are, Zaza. I don't agree with it one bit.
1:06:18
Okay, very last question. I just watched a video
1:06:22
essay from a guy, I can't remember his name,
1:06:24
but he was arguing that we might be just before
1:06:27
a renaissance of our own, that this era is sort
1:06:31
of like intellectually... completely exhausted
1:06:34
and that we're getting fed up with all of these
1:06:36
like ai slop uh social media uh ugly things as
1:06:42
you said in our world do you think that's remotely
1:06:45
possible it's hard to um uh if i could predict
1:06:48
the future i would be a rich and king of the
1:06:51
universe but i think that um there is an incredible
1:06:57
revolution happening and it is in fact going
1:07:00
to be driven by artificial intelligence Because
1:07:03
we'll be able to do things, individuals sitting
1:07:05
in their own library, the way I'm in my library,
1:07:08
can have access to not only information, but
1:07:12
also to use that information in ways that would
1:07:15
be otherwise impossible. And we'd be able then
1:07:18
to create a world of our own imagination. And
1:07:23
the real question is, what is it going to look
1:07:26
like? And who is going to dominate it? A world...
1:07:30
controlled by elon musk is my idea of the ultimate
1:07:32
dystopia yeah this screening you're not the only
1:07:36
one uh so i don't think that is the solution
1:07:40
but my hope is that as more and more people have
1:07:45
access to more and more information and they're
1:07:47
able to use that information for creative purposes
1:07:50
that a new renaissance could indeed happen so
1:07:55
I'm too old to experience and know it. You're
1:07:57
probably just about the right age to take advantage
1:07:59
of it. And who knows, it might be the audience
1:08:02
of your podcast who will then be your followers
1:08:04
and you'll take them to the promised land. Wow,
1:08:09
ending on a high note, not on the Renaissance
1:08:12
shaved by Elon Musk, literally the last circle
1:08:16
of Dante's Inferno. Professor Bartlett. If you
1:08:20
would recommend one of your books for people
1:08:22
who want to start digging in into the Renaissance,
1:08:25
which one would it be? I think it would be the
1:08:27
most recent Renaissance book, The Renaissance
1:08:31
in Italy, A History. Thank you very, very much.
1:08:35
Right. Find bookstores everywhere, probably available
1:08:38
on Amazon. Right. Do you have any social media
1:08:41
where people can follow your work? No, I avoid
1:08:44
social media so religiously. First of all, being
1:08:48
a professor, it's a dangerous thing to do. And
1:08:51
secondly, I find it incredibly boring looking
1:08:54
at people's cat pictures. All right. Thanks again,
1:08:58
Professor. This was a pleasure. Thank you very
1:08:59
much. And I look forward to hearing the response
1:09:02
to the podcast. Thank you very much for listening.
1:09:05
Please subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, follow
1:09:07
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1:09:10
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1:09:14
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1:09:16
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1:09:17
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1:09:20
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1:09:25
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1:09:35
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1:10:20
Thanks again, everybody. Means a lot.