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How to get hired as a tech writer with Sue Brandt · The Not-Boring Tech Writer

• Kate Mueller: [00:00:03] Welcome to the Not-Boring Tech Writer, a podcast sponsored by KnowledgeOwl. Together, we explore topics and hear from other writers to help inspire us, deepen our skills and foster our distinctly not-boring tech writing community. Kate Mueller: [00:00:18] Hello my lovely fellow not-boring tech writers. I'm Kate Mueller and today's guest, I have to say, also has a storied past. I love interviewing people who got into tech writing by accident after they did something else. And today's guest definitely qualifies as that. She was educated as a biologist and did post-doc research, and then slowly moved into bioinformatics before ending up in tech writing, and then also ended up being a people manager at some point in there. Lots of unexpected twists and turns, and you know how much I love a good, not boring, 'twisty and turny' story. I'm very excited to welcome to the pod today, Sue Brandt. Sue, welcome! Sue Brandt: [00:01:00] Hi! Thanks very much, it's great to be here. I'm looking forward to the talk. Kate Mueller: [00:01:04] So excited to have you. For our listeners, I just spoiled a little of it I think, but can you give us your tech writer villain origin story? How did you get into tech writing in the beginning? Sue Brandt: [00:01:16] I'm wondering, is there anyone who actually planned to be in tech writing from early on? It seems like everyone just falls into it by strange and wonderful means. I've heard all sorts of stories. My story is that I was looking for a new role. I was doing post-doc research and I enjoyed it, but it was really stressful to have to keep applying for new grants and not knowing if you still had a job in a few months. I had no idea what I wanted to do instead. I was looking at everything within about a 40 kilometer radius from my home. Someone was looking over my shoulder and pointed to something and said, you could do that. Kate Mueller: [00:01:50] The infamous tech writer "oh, you could do that". Lo and behold, you could do that and you did. Sue Brandt: [00:01:55] I was super lucky because the hiring manager was somebody who took a chance on me. I was writing about how you use software to program hardware, and I didn't know anything about software or hardware or tech writing, but somehow she twigged that I might be good at this and gave me a chance. So as I say, I was super lucky. Kate Mueller: [00:02:18] This makes me really love that we're trying to talk about how you get hired today, because it's funny how those little moments of somebody maybe taking a chance on you ended up into something that worked as a career. I have a similar thing about getting into software in general. I was teaching college level writing for a while, I got burnt out on it, and I took this temp job at a call center. As a result of that, I ended up teaching myself database design and architecture, which led me more into the technical realm and ultimately led me into tech writing, among other things. But it was just a complete accident. It was just like, I don't know what to do right now so I'm going to take this totally random job that I'm not totally sure I'm good at, but I'm just going to do it for a while. Then it gradually built into something completely unexpected. Along the way, I've definitely had a couple managers who were like, you don't seem exactly qualified for this, but I believe you could do it. In your case, you're not currently working as a tech writer, so I'm going to tweak a couple of the questions that I normally ask folks. For everyone listening, you will recognize that these are slightly different from normal. One of the questions I do typically ask, is 'tech writer' the best role title to use for this? We've had some folks who prefer documentarians. We have some folks who align more with software or product documentation. I specifically wanted you on here because I was like, I need somebody who's actually managed other people, who has been through the hiring process, who can speak to some of this a bit. Does 'tech writer' play well on the resume front, on the highlighting skill front? Are there phrases or words people should be using that are different? Sue Brandt: [00:04:07] I would advise everyone to list 'Technical Writer' on their LinkedIn profile. You can also list other titles as well, but I think technical writer is the most common one that recruiters are going to search for. Obviously you want to be found, even if you call yourself something completely different, 'lord and master of the documentation sphere' or whatever else, you can list that as well. But make sure you list 'Tech Writer' in there too. Kate Mueller: [00:04:32] My KnowledgeOwl title is 'Documentation Goddess'. That is not necessarily the thing I use entirely on my resume, for example, ladies and gentlemen. Sue Brandt: [00:04:41] Probably wouldn't be something that someone was searching for. Kate Mueller: [00:04:44] No, it's a little out there for sure. This gets us into the fun, nuts and bolts and meat of this episode. As I've hinted at already, and kind of danced around a little, Sue and I connected through a friend of a friend. In essence, I reached out to somebody I knew who'd already been a guest on the podcast and was like, I know you've done a little bit of people management now, and I feel like one of the big issues in our community is that we've got a lot of very talented people out of work right now, and a lot of folks really looking for work. I think we all hit a point of desperation when we're out of work, that we will start listening to the advice of any random person on the internet who suggests something different than what we've done. Sue Brandt: [00:05:26] So I'm the random person? Kate Mueller: [00:05:27] No, you are the not-random person, Sue. You are the person where I went, I don't just want to get random advice from a random person on the internet. I want to find somebody who's actually managed a docs team, has done hiring in docs, and has worked with a wide variety of people. And you were director of documentation there, managing quite a few writers and various other people, right? Sue Brandt: [00:05:51] Yeah, up to 30. It varied from time to time. I'd say over my career I've hired around 60 people, so I've definitely been through the process and obviously have my own way of doing it and my own opinions, but hopefully they'll be useful and there'll be some things that are applicable across the board. Kate Mueller: [00:06:09] Just to be clear, we're not making Sue speak on behalf of every single hiring manager on the planet. We're just picking her brain as, here is one hiring manager and here's what she looked for or did or asked, just a day in the life moment here. So no pressure, you are not speaking for all of hiring. I feel like a lot of where people are struggling at this point is trying to get to an interview. They see something, they feel like their experience aligns really well with that role, they send a resume or a CV off and then crickets. Nothing happens. That feels to me like the part that people are trying to dial in and are struggling with, so I wanted to begin there. Let's start with, what are some do's and don'ts for your CV or your resume? What should people be focusing on, or not focusing on, in what they're sending? Sue Brandt: [00:07:03] I would say the first thing is to make sure your resume reflects your skills as a technical writer. It may surprise you guys, but I've received so many resumes that have multiple mistakes on them, and that's just not a smart thing to do when you're applying for a job as a writer. It should be obvious, but it isn't to everyone, unfortunately. Kate Mueller: [00:07:25] All right, so get a friend to proofread it, y'all. Start there. Sue Brandt: [00:07:27] I would not advise you to use AI to write your resume, but get it to check it if you've not got anybody else to do that. It's pretty good at finding mistakes. As a tech writer, you should be good at summarizing the most important material and explaining it in a concise and clear way. And again, do that on your resume. I actually had one once that was 26 pages long. Could you believe it? Kate Mueller: [00:07:53] Are you kidding? Sue Brandt: [00:07:54] Nope. Kate Mueller: [00:07:54] 26 pages? Wow. Sue Brandt: [00:07:57] They didn't want to leave anything out. Kate Mueller: [00:08:02] That is bold, that is a choice. Sue Brandt: [00:08:06] Yeah, that was a choice. Kate Mueller: [00:08:09] The last time I went to a career center, which was, we're going to say, at least ten years ago, the advice I was given is that you are allotted one page for every 5 to 10 years of work experience, which always forced me to try to be as succinct as possible in that. I'm not sure if that's still the common guidance, but 26 pages, you'd be pretty old if you were following that guidance. Sue Brandt: [00:08:37] I'm not sure that I would advise that you have a longer CV if you've been working for longer. My own would be quite long if I did that. I would say, usually try and keep it to two pages. I know in some countries it's the custom to squish it all into one page. I'm not a fan of that, because I don't think you can explain enough in a single page. Maybe if you have a cover letter as well, but it's a bit tough. So keep it at two, maybe three pages, not excessively long, and make it long enough so that you've got room to explain all the juicy stuff. Kate Mueller: [00:09:10] One of the debates I've seen has been, how much time do you spend making it look pretty, versus how much time do you spend on the content that you're putting into it? Obviously, none of us wants to hand in an unattractive thing. But from your perspective, how important was the aesthetic of the document versus the content of the document? Sue Brandt: [00:09:33] I'd say it's really not important as long as it's not a blank page with text on it and nothing else, just lines and lines of text. Have a little thing to catch the eye, whether it's a use of color for headings or a sidebar or something else. But don't spend loads of time making it pretty unless you're good at it and you enjoy it. There have been occasions where I think people have overdone that, and that's actually put me off, and they've obviously spent more care on how to present their words rather than the words themselves. Again, think about what role you're applying for, right? Kate Mueller: [00:10:10] If you're applying for a tech writing position that includes some design and creation of visual assets, then it might be more relevant. Whereas if you're largely working on API documentation or something, it may not be as pertinent to dish out all the fancy colors and bells and whistles. Sue Brandt: [00:10:29] Exactly. Kate Mueller: [00:10:31] How should folks handle cases where they've got gaps in employment? Because we've got a lot of folks who have that right now, either because they were laid off six months ago, a year ago, year and a half ago, and haven't been able to find anything, or they've got a period like that a little bit farther back, but it would come up recently enough that you'd potentially have to handle that either in your application materials, or your cover letter in the interview. Where and how should somebody address that? Sue Brandt: [00:11:05] It is a tricky one. I would say the best thing is to try not to hide it. Because it's going to be obvious looking through, you'll spot a gap between the years. Then if there's no explanation, I start to wonder what went on. Obviously, you don't need to give out personal details if it was a sickness or something like that, but try and summarize something to give some kind of explanation. You can talk about upskilling or just call it a career break, that's also fine. Just give it some kind of a label rather than just leaving a visible gap. Kate Mueller: [00:11:38] My own gap is about six months from when I basically took a career break to hike a very long trail. I always ask this question because I'm like, what should I do about that six month gap in my resume? Which is what I typically say often. It's not always in my resume, sometimes it's in a cover letter, sometimes it's during the interview when somebody asks me about the gap. I can be like, I took six months off and hiked a really long way by myself. Usually that's an interesting point of conversation, so it works out in my favor. But you can't ever tell. I saw an interesting question the other day from someone who had been a tech writer for a period of time and then tried to pivot out of the industry and was not successful in that and so was now resuming applying for tech writing gigs. It was a bit like, how do I handle this? If I tell folks that I took a chance trying to go somewhere else and that didn't work out, how do I then make myself seem still enthusiastic and like I care about doing this when I really did try to bail? Sue Brandt: [00:12:43] That's a tricky one. You could phrase it like, I tried this sort of thing out, it wasn't a great match to me, so I'm coming back to the thing that I know and love. Something like that. Kate Mueller: [00:12:53] Is there anything else that I'm not thinking to ask here about structuring a CV or resume? Sue Brandt: [00:12:57] One thing is to make sure you read the advert. It sounds obvious, but it's not okay to fire off the same resume to every single tech writing job. You're just going to come across as uninterested. So make sure you read the advert, pull out any points that seem particularly important for the hiring manager, anything that's different to the average job and try to address that in your CV. You should be editing some of the content for every application, whether it's a lot or little will depend on the content of the job. Kate Mueller: [00:13:30] For myself, I will sometimes look through a job advertisement, and I'll sometimes tweak the language that I'm using in my CV so that it better reflects the language that appeared in the job description, or whatever it might be. I figure a little bit of keyword hitting probably doesn't hurt me because the content is otherwise the same. Would you recommend taking that kind of approach? If you're like, I generally do use the same CV everywhere, but I do want it to feel like I actually paid attention to the job that I was applying for. Sue Brandt: [00:14:04] I would advise you to do exactly that. That's not because someone, like me, might be reading the application because I can translate and say, that's the same thing. But it's because often the first person to look at your application is a recruiter, and they don't necessarily know that something you call A is the same as something that they call B, so that increases your chances of getting through the first pile as well. Personally, I read every single application myself. I didn't ask recruiting to screen them for me because I could never give them a formula in terms of, this is exactly the person I'm looking for. It's like, I know it when I see it. And maybe they don't have a relevant degree, they typically don't with tech writing. Maybe they don't have exactly the experience you'd expect, but sometimes you look at different things in the resume and think, that could work with that. So personally, I read them all, but I think that's pretty rare. Often it's the recruiters that go for the pearl first, so make sure that you think of them as well. And remember, they're not so experienced in tech writing terms and so on. Kate Mueller: [00:15:05] It's a good point. That the initial audience may not be the final audience. You're trying to create something that's going to appeal to various steps in that. Which maybe leads us into, I think when you and I were talking about this, you mentioned something about understanding the local hiring culture. I feel like maybe this is a good segue into that. Is it a recruiter who's going to be looking at it? Can you figure that out? Do you have a feel for what the process is going to look like? And therefore you can adjust what you're going to submit in that way. Talk to me a little bit more about that. Sue Brandt: [00:15:30] That's a really good point, actually. In terms of who's going to be looking at it first, you obviously don't always know. But if it's a larger company, then the likelihood is that the recruiter is going to look at it first. And if it's a smaller one then perhaps it's just the hiring manager straight off. Cultures vary from country to country as well as from one company to another. For example, it was a surprise for me to learn that most companies in Denmark like you to include a photo on your CV, which is a big no-no in many other countries. If you've moved to another country and aren't familiar with the hiring culture, then make sure you find out about that. Another thing in Denmark, which is perhaps unusual in other countries, it's really common to call the hiring manager and introduce yourself and ask a few questions about the role. Kate Mueller: [00:16:26] I would never think to do that, never in a million years. Sue Brandt: [00:16:29] That was also news to me. But it's worth thinking about. I think we'll talk a little bit about how you can make yourself stand out from the crowd. Maybe that would annoy some hiring managers if they're busy, but others may welcome it. If you actually get through to them and are allowed to talk to them, then you will stand out a little. Because they'll say, that was so-and-so that I chatted with earlier. Kate Mueller: [00:16:52] That makes sense. That's a cultural thing I never would have thought of. Also, not a space that I would be comfortable in generally as a candidate. Sue Brandt: [00:17:02] Should we get on to that elephant in the room about, are people using AI to screen resumes these days? Kate Mueller: [00:17:10] Let's. Sue Brandt: [00:17:11] I think, thankfully, not a lot of companies are doing that already. But some are, I know. And I think it's a terrible, terrible thing. Because as I say, I didn't really trust recruiters myself to find the right mix, and I certainly wouldn't trust AI. They just don't have enough knowledge about the context, and they won't be able to translate skills that are applicable, but not in exact match and all those kinds of things. If a company has decided to do it, there's not much you can do about that. Try searching on the net. Maybe if you're unsure, to see if there's any rumors that a particular company does it. If they do, then it's really important to do that keyword loading and make it as easy for the engine as possible to translate. "They match that one and they match that one, and they've mentioned that one". But I think it's a horrible thing and I hope it stops soon. Kate Mueller: [00:17:56] Fair enough. Is there anything else from a general perspective to say, what else can you do to stand out? There's, you're trying to speak very much the language of the role, you are trying to signal that you have understood some things about the way the company culture is, or the hiring culture specifically is. What else is there other than, let me dial in my documents and try to use the appropriate channels in the appropriate ways to make myself stand out. Which I realize is a really hard question. Sue Brandt: [00:18:27] There's one really important thing, I think, which we haven't touched on yet. That's to make sure that the hiring manager knows what your motivation is, why you're interested in this particular role. If you submit a cover letter, then a good chunk of your cover letter should be about that. If you don't, then try and include it in a section at the top of your CV. For me, the most important thing when I'm hiring someone is enthusiasm. I would weigh that every time above experience. So if you can get that to come through in your application somehow, I think that's one thing that will help you stand out. Kate Mueller: [00:19:05] On that note, I think this is a great time for us to take a break. So stick with us, we will take a break and we will be right back in a few. Kate Mueller: [00:19:13] This episode is sponsored by KnowledgeOwl, your team's next knowledge based solution. You don't have to be a technical wizard to use KnowledgeOwl. Our intuitive, robust features empower teammates of all feathers to spend more time on content and less time on administration. Learn more and sign up for a free 30-day trial at knowledgeowl.com. Kate Mueller: [00:19:36] We are back with more from Sue Brandt. Sue, there's something you said earlier, that enthusiasm, for you, outweighs experience, which I love. I have done a bit of hiring myself, and that often is the case for me as well. I feel like someone who comes in really excited about the role and the work that it entails, any gaps that they might have in tool knowledge or something else, I feel pretty confident they're going to pick it up because of that enthusiasm. It does lead into the, I'm applying for a job that I'm maybe not particularly qualified for, because I'm pivoting from something. A different career, a different whatever. Or, this is maybe much more technical. Or, it's a very different audience that I've written for in the past, or something like that. Let's talk a little bit about what it is for people who are trying to make that pivot. How do they handle that in their application materials? What's a good way to try to make that translation? To show that, I haven't done this exact thing before, but here's why I would be successful in this role. Sue Brandt: [00:20:47] When you're trying that approach, it's potluck. If you're going to hit a recruiter first, then you've probably got a lower chance of getting through if you don't match the criteria in the job advert, because that's what they're looking for. But obviously give it a go. What you want to do is explain why you think your existing experience and skills are applicable, at least to some extent. Do that translation, and then convey the enthusiasm which is going to be really important when you learn new stuff, and talk about times where you've learned other stuff quickly or other transitions that you've made. Those are the things I look for if I'm taking a bit of a risk on somebody. You can sometimes get a gut feel when you look for a resume. This person sounds super smart, they obviously want to do this, and they've got this little piece over here that might be applicable. I think this could work. Then if you get to the interview, you'll make another assessment and have another gut feel about whether you still think that or not. But as I say, it can be difficult to get past a recruiter if they're the first person screening. Kate Mueller: [00:22:03] We haven't talked much about interview stuff at all, kind of by design, but I think this is a good one to talk about interview things a little bit. I think if you can get to the interview stage and you're in a place where you aren't, on paper, the perfect fit, the interview is the place where you can help yourself stand out enough to still get that role. I'm curious, from your experience hiring, I'm guessing you've hired some folks who were very enthusiastic, but maybe not 100% qualified for what you hired them for. What are the do's and don'ts in that situation from an interview perspective for one of those candidates? Sue Brandt: [00:22:48] A lot of the do's and don'ts are the same for any other kind of interview as well. Maybe we can go through a few of those as well. In terms of somebody who's not an obvious fit, I guess it's doing the same things that I've already talked about for the application itself. Explain why you think the experience you have and the skills you have, and maybe things you've done in your past time, whatever it is, any kinds of little pieces of ammunition that can count in your favor. Then show that you've done some research. For example, if you're coming into a tech writer role for the first time, make sure you've read about what tech writers actually do and can talk the language a little bit. Or if you're transitioning from a less 'technical' technical writer to a programmer writing role, maybe you want to have done a couple of online courses in software skills and so on. Something to show that you're serious about moving in that direction. Kate Mueller: [00:23:48] Now I'm going to make you leap back the other direction, which is to say we've also somewhat neglected cover letters. I'm going to rewind us a tiny bit and say, is there anything folks should be focusing on doing, or avoiding doing, in a cover letter? Sue Brandt: [00:24:06] I think the two key things that you need to do, I know we've definitely talked on, what's your motivation for the role and enthusiasm and so on. The other thing is that this is your chance to map your experience onto the job requirements. Don't give the hiring manager the work of having to try and figure that out. If you only send a CV, then there's a bit more work for the hiring manager to extrapolate and think, that situation may be like this. I'm not quite sure. In the cover letter you can explain it. Personally, I'm a fan of a cover letter and I always read those before the CVS, but I know that there are varying opinions about that. If all the applications are going past a recruiter and they're busy, they may not bother reading the cover letter or they may ask you not to submit one. So if you can try and find out what the company prefers, that's the ideal thing. Kate Mueller: [00:25:08] At least in my experience, a lot of them are very clear about whether they want one or don't want one. Even just as simple as, is there a place for you to upload this or not? Sue Brandt: [00:25:19] And that's a good tip. Even before you're ready to actually apply for the job, press the apply button and then you can see which files you're allowed to upload. Then you can save yourself some time if you can't upload a cover letter. Kate Mueller: [00:25:31] Although I do think even for places where you can't upload a cover letter, and maybe this is a terrible piece of advice, you can correct me if it is, but I feel like the action of writing a cover letter forces you to do some of that explicit mapping between your experiences and what the role entails. That can still be a useful exercise when you're getting into conversations with a recruiter or with a hiring manager. Because most of us do writing, because we're often better at thinking on the page than we are thinking out loud. So having gone through the exercise, even if you can't submit, it might be useful just to have really thought through, what are the best ways for me to showcase how I map my skills to what you're looking for? Sue Brandt: [00:26:20] I actually think that's a really good idea, because there are various situations in which you may be able to use it. If you get to the interview part, then you can use it there for sure. If, for any reason, you end up talking to the recruiter or hiring manager before then, obviously use it there. The other thing is that it may prompt you to rewrite your CV a little bit, to showcase a little bit more of that. Kate Mueller: [00:26:44] That's a good point. Maybe one other materials question. There are some applications that will encourage or require you to include a portfolio of the work that you have. Because seeing a writer's previous work is often a very good way to gauge, are they going to be a good fit for the kind of writing that we do for our style, for our conventions, whatever that might be? I don't know that I have a very clear question here, but I can say that this is one of the steps of the application process that I feel causes me an undue amount of stress. To try to decide, what do I put in here? Because I want to pick some of my strongest work, but I also want to pick work that I feel demonstrates the exact skills that I think this role is looking for. There is sometimes this, I haven't written anything like that in a while. Do I make up a sample and send that in? Should I pick something from three years ago that's pretty close to what they're looking for, even though it's several years old at this point? Do you have any wisdom and guidance on picking portfolio content? Let me start here, did you use portfolios in your hiring process? Sue Brandt: [00:27:58] I always want to see a sample of someone's writing before I decide if I'm going to interview them. That's not to say that I ask everybody for that by any means. It's when I get towards the shortlisting stage. Don't have to have a fancy website or anything. It's fine to just send some files and that will do. I feel that three pieces is the sweet spot. You don't want to overload the hiring manager, but you want to choose 2 or 3 samples that show slightly different situations. If you're interviewing for a programmer writer position, you'd want to have some API documentation and then something that's a bit more conceptual to show that you can write something that's a bit less formulaic as well. Kate Mueller: [00:28:42] It is one of the big questions I see from new writers. Folks who haven't been tech writers in the past, and they know that they're going to have to submit some type of samples. They're like, I don't really have a deep, broad portfolio of work to submit. I think at that point, generating a sample or two that feels aligned without spending an achingly long amount of time doing it does make sense because you don't have that experience. You're just trying to demonstrate that you have a basic understanding of what tech writing entails and what you think the role is looking for. So three pieces. Do you have any, definitely do not do pieces that are longer than x or shorter than x? Or is it variable? Sue Brandt: [00:29:33] You don't necessarily have to cut a piece off if it really is a long topic, but it would be better to send things that are maybe 1 or 2 pages rather than many pages. It may be fine to have one very short sample if it's showing something different to the others, and then two longer samples. Not too short, not too long. Kate Mueller: [00:29:52] You want to be Goldilocks, but we're not quite sure exactly where in the sweet spot Goldilocks is for a given hiring manager. One of the questions I get, particularly from younger writers, but not always younger writers, often it's those of us who haven't had to apply for something in a long time is, how in the weeds in our CV or our cover letter should we get on previous projects, tools that we've used to tech stack that we've worked on? I've seen some guidance that says you want to be hyper specific on this. I've seen some guidance that says you should only be hyper specific if it helps show the translation of the experience you have to the thing. I've seen other people who will literally list every single tool they've ever used in the application materials. I'm assuming there's a sweet spot here, I'm hoping you can tell me where it is. Sue Brandt: [00:30:46] The words I fixated on in your question were 'how in the weeds'. You're showcasing your skills as a tech writer, so you're not in the weeds. It is fine to mention tools and tech and projects, but again, don't overdo it. Give preference to anything that's listed in the advert. If they ask for experience in a particular tool and you've used it, of course mention that. Or if there's a tool that's similar, then mention that instead. Give a few examples of projects that showcase your achievements. Definitely don't list everything you've documented or every project you've done. Pick out a few things and you can say for example, blah blah blah to show obviously I've done more than this, but these are a few things that demonstrate what I can do. If they ever ask for particular technologies as well, then obviously list those if you have them or anything adjacent to that. If you're going for a programmer writer role, then list the languages that you know. If you've worked on particular tech stacks, that might be relevant as well. Again, it's that sweet spot. Customize it to whatever the adverts are asking for and give a few examples, but not too many. Kate Mueller: [00:31:55] I feel like the answer in software is often, 'it depends'. I feel like this one is a little bit 'it depends'. It depends what the company is looking for in the role, it depends what you have and it depends how those things potentially map together. Sometimes I think if you don't have experience with the exact tool, then mentioning an experience you have of coming up to speed quickly on a tool that you're unfamiliar with can at least say, "I've had to do something like this before." Sue Brandt: [00:32:27] I'll share a secret with you. I personally think it's stupid to ask for experience in a particular documentation tool, because any tech writers worth their salt will learn it in a couple of weeks. Sure they'll become an expert over time, but it's not an issue. You've used one before, you'll translate, you'll get there very quickly. Kate Mueller: [00:32:45] If you're a good tech writer, you're used to having to learn new things, sometimes very quickly, in order to explain them to others, or because that's just the nature of the business, is that every place you work has a different combination of tools or different tech stack or whatever. One of the things I wanted to ask you was, since you've done a fair amount of hiring, what are the things that people do to seal the deal when they're in the interview, or what are the things people do that totally puts you off and you're like, coming into this, I thought I was going to hire you, but I'm not going to now. I think that is an interview do's and don'ts question, but I always love hearing. Because I think sometimes it's hard to actually articulate what makes one candidate stand out over another, interview wise. So I would love to pick your brain on this. Sue Brandt: [00:33:40] I'm obviously going to come back to my thing and say that enthusiasm is the clincher there. If I see someone who's got a great resume and they've got loads of experience and they've done all the same kinds of things before, and they come to an interview and it just seems like they're going through the motions, "yeah, yeah, I can do this, whatever", they're not going to get hired because that's just going to be soul destroying to work with them. I want someone who's, however good you are, can always move on and improve and try new things. That's what I want to see. Going back to basics, when you start off the interview, the first thing to do is to smile. Establish contact with the interviewer, and don't worry about being nervous because they're going to expect it. They've done this before, they've seen other candidates. Most people are nervous to some extent, sometimes very nervous, and they should be ready to put you at your ease so don't worry about that. If you're having an in-person interview, then obviously shake hands, have a bit of small talk before you sit down. Maybe the hiring manager will kick that off, but if they don't, then do it yourself. Just talk about the usual things, the weather, getting to the office or whatever it is. Once you've got started, it's typical for the first question to be around why you're interested in this job, but if they don't ask it, try and work it into the conversation yourself. Sue Brandt: [00:35:04] We've got another Goldilocks thing in terms of how long your answers should be to questions. More than one sentence normally, but don't talk for several minutes about one thing unless the hiring manager is asking follow up questions and prompting you for more. Don't hog the conversation, they've probably got quite a few questions they want to get through. Then definitely prepare some questions. You can use this as an opportunity to show that you've done your research. And again, that shows your enthusiasm for the role. For example, you could ask something specific about a particular feature in the documentation. It doesn't really need to be something that you're personally interested in, but it shows that you've been in there and looked in the weeds and you've done the research. A couple of don'ts, don't say bad things about your previous employer or colleagues, even if that's the reason why you left your previous job. That's a warning sign for the manager. It may be perfectly fair and just, and they were complete idiots, but the hiring manager can't know that, so there's no reason to mention it. Then the other thing is, don't monopolize the conversation so that the hiring manager doesn't get a chance to ask all the questions. But also don't sit there if there's an awkward gap. Kate Mueller: [00:36:21] Have you ever had somebody ask a question, that the question itself put you off? Sue Brandt: [00:36:28] Questions trying to be a bit too clever. It's almost like you're trying to catch the company out or being overly critical. I think it's fine to identify something in the documentation that you don't like and mention that, and obviously explain why and how you think it could be done better. But don't ask a question that's purposely tricky and will be difficult for the hiring manager to answer. You'll come across as a bit arrogant, and that's not a great place to be. Kate Mueller: [00:36:59] What is a great piece of advice that you have been given? It does not have to do with anything we talked about today. Sue Brandt: [00:37:05] I'm not sure that this fits into the interview as such, but it was actually from one of my previous managers. We just had a really stressful day, and he sat me down at the end and said, I'm going to tell you something that one of my previous managers said. Remember, this is just a job. Which I thought was really great, but I'm not sure that it's particularly applicable to hiring and getting yourself hired. It's once you're already there and trying to keep sane. Kate Mueller: [00:37:35] Yes, but it is still important advice for sure. To round it out, normally I would ask, if people wanted to follow up with you or get in touch, is that a thing? Would you be open to people reaching out to you? Sue Brandt: [00:37:51] For sure. I'm very happy if people want to message me or link up, connect on LinkedIn. I am happy to chat with more people, get more connections. Kate Mueller: [00:38:01] Fabulous. I know that you yourself are working on a pivot into something different. Do you have a feel yet for what that different thing is? Sue Brandt: [00:38:11] I'm definitely hoping I can take the skills that I've learned along with me. The people management side and maybe also the writing side. But I would love to work within sustainability. Who knows, maybe I'll find a tech writer job within sustainability, that would be a neat pivot. Or maybe there's a team out there who really needs me as a manager. That would be another great thing, but it's something I'm exploring. My sense is that it's going to be quite a difficult leap, because most of the jobs are either for new graduates or for people who've got ten years experience. So there may be something I have to drop at some stage and come back to what I know and love, as we said before. Kate Mueller: [00:38:52] Often I think it's worth being honest. We can all be honest about this, you can enjoy something but also still want to do something different. That's a very human thing. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. That's not a thing you should be embarrassed about at an interview. You can say, I'd been doing this, I felt really great at it. Maybe I hit a point where it wasn't feeling as challenging to me, or maybe this other area came up on my radar, and I realized I was really interested in that. I was trying to see if I could break into that, and that didn't work so I'm back here with a thing that I know and love, that I'm great at and hoping I can put my skills to use. Which is a great note for us to end on, I think. Sue, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge and your generosity today. This has been a lovely chat. I know I've learned a few things, so I'm hoping our listeners also have some takeaways here. Sue Brandt: [00:39:46] That's great. I've really enjoyed chatting with you, it's been a pleasure. Kate Mueller: [00:39:49] The Not-Boring Tech Writer is produced by the lovely humans at Astronomic Audio. With editing by Dillon, transcription by Alan, and post-production by Been and Alex. Chad Timblin is our podcast head of operations. Our theme song is by Brightside Studio. Our artwork is by Bill Netherlands. You can check out KnowledgeOwl's products at knowledgeowl.com. And if you want to work with me on docs, on knowledge management coaching, on revamping an existing knowledge base, go to knowledgewithsass.com. Until next time, I'm Kate Mueller and you are the not-boring tech writer.