Latest / Trudge Report / Ep. 127 - Beyond the Booze: Symptom vs Disease & No Shortcuts Sobriety.

Transcript

Ep. 127 - Beyond the Booze: Symptom vs Disease & No Shortcuts Sobriety. · Trudge Report

0:07
SPEAKER_02: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to another episode of Trudge Report.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: We are a recovery-based podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: My name is Sean, and I am your host, joined by my good friends and fellow Trudgers.
0:18
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0:22
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0:26
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0:30
SPEAKER_02: Remember to like and subscribe on all social media outlets with the handle at Trudge Report Pod.
0:36
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0:40
SPEAKER_02: Gentlemen, good evening.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: Happy recording Sunday, uh beginning of a new week.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: How's everything going?
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Mr.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh the redheaded Superman.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: For those who won't watch this, uh, how's the Ginger Superman doing tonight?
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Doing good, man.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Doing good.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Just uh wrapping up a fun weekend.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: We uh we got Peyton back today.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: He's been at his dad's for two weeks.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So absolutely destroyed the family in uh putt-putt as all as all things should be, I think.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: He did or you did?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: No, no, I did.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, good.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: All right.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: That's that's that is how I agree.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: That is how it should be.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: We don't we don't give participation trophies around here, especially not when it comes to putt-putt.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: However, I did buy ice cream afterwards, so there's that.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: It helps it helps cool down the the loot the loss, you know, a little bit.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, and and other than that, man, it's just a busy week.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: We had a neighborhood garage sale.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh they they have it every year here.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Dude, I love a good garage sale, bro.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: I I absolutely love it.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Dude, but let me tell you, from the hosting standpoint, it brings on some freaking weirdos, dude.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's some really, really weird stuff.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: That's part of the fun.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't know who you're gonna get.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's in the and it's the whole neighborhood.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, like I mean, you don't have to participate, obviously, but it's it's the whole neighborhood.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: So like the neighbors.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: But let's be honest, you're looked you're looked down upon within the neighborhood if you don't participate.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's be honest, right?
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, probably, honestly.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Bring us all your old shit and let it let me see what's in that house.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, basically, so um, but yeah, dude, weirdos.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, like the thing started at nine, and literally I had people bun bum rushing my driveway at eight o'clock.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not even done setting up tables, pulling stuff out, dude.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And people are just bum rushing the houses.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: What do you got?
2:25
SPEAKER_00: You got any Legos?
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Those are the out-of-towners.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: The out-of-towners got or that or the meth addicts, one of the two.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: I was about ready to flip.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: You got any tools?
2:35
SPEAKER_00: You got any Legos?
2:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, like what the hell is going on?
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I did I did make 215 bucks, so I I can't uh just sell an old shit.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: I might have sold a couple swords to a couple children, but it's fine.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a law saying I couldn't.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: So they need to learn how to defend themselves too, you know.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, all in all, pretty good.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: Greg, when is your uh when is your wedding again?
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're almost a year out.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: We're uh it'll be July 24th, 2027.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: That's what I thought.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: All right.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: It was my mom asked, uh, my mom, our avid, avid fan, she asked, When are they getting married again?
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Are you guys gonna go?
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Do you need me to watch the kids?
3:17
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Yes, yes, and yes.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: All across the board.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'm pretty sure it's summer of 27.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: So that's right.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Good stuff.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: Danny P, what's up, buddy?
3:29
SPEAKER_02: My mom also said she is very intrigued to see your what hairdo you bring each week.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh dude, it was it was actually a big conundrum uh last night going to the burlesque show.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: I had to, I couldn't wear a hat, so I have no idea what I was gonna do with my hair, and I ended up having to like style it weird and it was flopping over my face in the middle of the night.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: We used the uh the LA Looks gel.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Remember LA Looks, dude?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh basically it was like the little the little pomade cans, you know.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did a little pomade in there, and then yeah, by the middle of the night, it was it was disastrous, man.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I probably look like a complete weirdo, but um yeah, that's awesome.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh we had a good week, man.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: We had the uh the all-star game and we won in walk-off fashion in the bottom of the sixth inning.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, that was pretty awesome.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: I had uh two two RBIs and she played a great game defensively, but it was just pretty cool to have all the girls that are like good at softball all on the field at the same time, and to see my Maya in that environment of girls that like all want to play softball because you know in like rec league, you get those parents that make their kids that play softball that have no desire to be there at all, you know.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, so like that was like a it was like a cool environment to to see Maya in.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, what else did we do?
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we had date night at the burlesque show.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: That was that's yeah, how let's hold on, let's let's pause on that for just a moment.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: How was that?
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, dude.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: So well, first we went to dinner at the Cooper Hawk Winery.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: That was pretty uh pretty nice.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: That was a nice little uh teaser.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And then uh so you walk into this place called the 40 deuce, you know, we'll get the free shout-out, 40 deuce speak easy and burlesque show.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: That sounds like a time, yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And you walk in, it's got a piece of pizzeria on the um first floor, and then you walk uh like through the uh through the kitchen and the refrigerator door, you open the fridge door up, and then it goes uh into the stairwell, and the stairs go up to the uh where the uh nightclub is.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, it was wild, man.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was just it was there.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was basically like a nightclub.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: I felt like I was 21.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not I was gonna say, so so is this like a because the only burlesque show I've been to is like a theater atmosphere.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: It was like a Star Wars themed burlesque.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: So the one who started himself wore that one too.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we so we got so this was like a show then, a full-on like routine and all that.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: So basically they had, I mean, it was like two girls that went up and danced and pretty much butt naked.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And uh on the yeah, pretty much, yeah, and uh they were dancing up.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: We uh we got tickets in the VIP area, so we sat in the velvet roped area.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh just yeah, just because we didn't want to stand up in the nightclub fashion, you know, and nuts the butts with everybody and just hanging out, you know.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: Were they were they local girls where you're like, oh shit, that's Mitzi from the local diner.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh I just hooked up your dryer.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: What's up?
6:21
SPEAKER_00: So they had they had people just lined up just standing.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, yeah, it was like a nightclub, you know what I mean?
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Like they were just standing on the dance floor and stuff and just hanging out.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: And uh it was a lot of the catch a rogue boner or something like that, one of those things you don't want all of that, dude.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: You don't want all that, yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: So then uh so then um start throwing dollar bills on the on the table and stuff like that.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: So I started throwing dollar bills on the table over by Alyssa and the girl.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she was she was a great performer, man.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like she took a dude's cell phone, she was taking a selfie with it and stuff like that.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: Like it was like that's what I was gonna say.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: Were they were they were actually like talented, like it was funny, yeah.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: No, she was like awesome, dude.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
7:02
SPEAKER_01: It was like a show, yeah, yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And then she was like putting her head down over by Alyssa and she was flapping up in the air.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: It was crazy, man.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And then uh at like 11 o'clock, then they have like this jazz band that comes out and they do like the actual burlesque show, you know what I mean, where they have like all the music and stuff, the old school music and stuff like that.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, it was a good time, man.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And then like 15 people like rushed in, and they were probably like my age, and they were all dressed up as grannies and grandpas, and they had walkers and stuff.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Like it was like they put on outfits and stuff, and they started the techno was jamming, dude, and they started going.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Me and Alyssa were dying, dude.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: It was freaking hysterical.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: That's all nice, dude.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was funny, man.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: It was a good time, though.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Something different.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: That's that's like the low-key, not even low-key, like stuff in a marriage and a long-term relationship, but like you change it up a little bit, do something fun, do something different.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: You may never do it again, but that's okay.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: It's a lasting memory, you have a good time.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: That's that's cool.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it was cool, man.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: It was good, and it was much needed, and it was to celebrate, you know what I mean?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Alyssa, yeah, you know, her job and all that stuff, and we had no kids, you know.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really that's the nice part.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, dude, with school and everything.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we both said it last night.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember the last time that we had like a night and waking up alone and like a night that we went out and had fun and all that stuff with no weight on our shoulders.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: And it was it was so it was it was good.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: We make it a point to do it once every month or two, but it takes uh like a I have like a reminder set in my phone to plan it and like make sure we have sitters, it takes a very concerted concerted effort.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: It's hard, man.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and that's what I do.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: We would do it like while she was during school, but your mind, her mind was so still in school that it's not, you know, I mean like we still did it and had time together, but it was not like last night was just so free, and we didn't get home to like one 1.30 and uh went to bed at like 2 30.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Man, I'm like I'm toasted today.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: I haven't stayed up to 2 30, and I don't even remember the last time, but um, yeah, it was good, it was good, man.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, much needed.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Very good.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, all good on my end.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: We had miss uh Miss Grace's uh birthday party today at the the roller skating rink up here in a little north of us.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: We had a blast, we had we had a lot of fun.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, I still got the moves just in case.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say you get out on that floor, dude.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: I still I got it.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: I still got the rhythm.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was fun.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: We had a blast.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Great kids had a great time.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: They super cheap too.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: Like like they get like really cheap compared to any other birthday package at any other venue here.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's always good.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: My parents came back to the house.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: We opened presents after, and and uh it was just a good day.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: It's always fun to to see your children happy and and having a good time.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: And Sophia's is in a couple weeks, got back from vacation this week.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Had I obviously I recorded with you guys last week on vacation, had a great time, love getting home.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: Possibly my favorite part of vacation is getting home.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, just getting back to my routine.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: Big routine guy over here, and uh just everything's good, man.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: We got a good good couple days.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: Um real quick, uh, have you guys um been following any of your baseball teams at all yet?
10:11
SPEAKER_02: I know it's not quite all-star break.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: You guys have been tracking tracking anything else?
10:16
SPEAKER_00: My tribe is decimating the Marlins all weekend.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: So well, right now, but just I mean, you guys are still holding holding first place in your division, too.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a this is a tight division.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Tight one, yeah.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a tight one.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: Um I know Danny, the Yankees are a few games behind the Rays.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I'm like I'm panicking over here, guys.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: My Braves had up to a 10-game lead in their division earlier this season.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: It's it's down to two right now.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: We're not playing well.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: The Phillies are playing well, which sucks even more that it's the Phillies.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, give me the Mets or the Nationals or the Marlins or somebody like playing well.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Not the Phillies, anybody but the Phillies.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Who saw the Mets just like I love it so much?
10:56
SPEAKER_01: It's great.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: It's great it's the greatest thing ever, dude.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh Sean, you guys got injuries or like that's why I like like the Yankees lost like like 10 out of 11, but I mean uh two of the best hitters in the week.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: No, not not to the point of I mean Acunia's like always hurt, I feel like he's gonna have still wild.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: But um, I heard some trade rumors about him.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't think we're gonna trade him at this point in the season, but I've heard some rumors.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: It not not enough to to be as stinky as we are.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: The problem is we might have been like playing like too good in the beginning of the season where it was almost unsustainable, but but not not to this point, you know.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: But uh I don't know, man.
11:34
SPEAKER_02: It's after the all-star break, it kind of really starts to heat up and and uh baseball starts to really mean something.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: So we're pretty we're just we're we're pretty lucky to be in the American League.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're pretty much gonna be good no matter what.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
11:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean uh the if you're above 500, you're you're either leading your division or you're ahead in the wild card.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: We will we will somehow uh find a way to make it into the playoffs again without spending any money.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: You just need uh the Jose's gotta be good to go.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: No, he will be.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: He he's he's uh he's been practicing.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: They they expect him back in a couple weeks.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they'll throw a shockwave and they'll pick up a hitter.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Totally unlikely.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: I don't see it happening.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no chance.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: They'll get seven pitchers.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: You guys you guys stuck with the World Cup at all after the US lost?
12:24
SPEAKER_02: There's some good games on last night, man.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, I know you were out last night, damn it.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: There were some phenomenal games yesterday.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I'm out, I'm all out, all out after the US.
12:33
SPEAKER_02: No, down to the semifinals, man.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's no reason no anymore.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: Um I I just I have I have to say this because it just it just jumped out at me.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: And and we again, we are not a political podcast, we all know that, but you know, they they changed the name of uh West Palm Beach International Airport.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: Do you guys know what the name is now?
12:51
SPEAKER_02: It's Donald Trump International, isn't it?
12:53
SPEAKER_02: Donald J.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: Trump International.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, is it really?
12:56
SPEAKER_02: That's so gangster.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And it's just I like I haven't seen, I haven't driven driven south of us, and I did the other day, and it's just you know, they have it on all the exits now and all the signs.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: It's just it's wild.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: And there's there's people, man.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: It's just it's just crazy.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: And and I'm I'm not gonna get too far in the weeds, but it's wild that he's a sitting president and they did that.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, I mean, we all know he's got a huge ego, even though our governor, DeSantis, signed the bill.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, that had some like, come on, Ron, like, let's let's get this thing done, you know.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: He had some pushback, but it's like people were like, I'm never flying out of that airport.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: I know that's awesome, bro.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be light through the gate.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah, but you know what though?
13:34
SPEAKER_02: It's like, guys, I don't give a shit what you name your airports, you know, like it really shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of life.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: If that's what you're there's so much more to be worried about and upset about, but it does stand out, and it is a little like, oh wow, he really did that while he's a living and sitting president.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, usually that's something you do like you know, after.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, JFK, obviously we have it's happened before, but not while they're sitting presidents.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: I just thought that was funny, and people are just up in arms about it, you know.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Did he like donate money or something?
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Or did it just legit just change the name?
14:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he is West Palm Beach, pretty much.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, he is, you know.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yes, at one point, obviously it was Trump Towers in New York City, but like I would say, you know West Palm Beach is synonymous with Trump, Trump International, Trump Doral.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's all that stuff is is uh pretty synonymous with him.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: So such a random thing.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure he did.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm sure he did.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Just change it, just change it.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's a five million dollar donation.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, make it my name.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: Probably, probably.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh anything else you guys are cooking on?
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Anything else you want to talk about real quick before we rock into it?
14:44
SPEAKER_02: So let's do it.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Um Corey is out there uh gallivanting around somewhere.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully he's not pissing anybody off in the process.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we will miss him tonight.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: I think he actually would have been pretty good for this conversation.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: It would have given him a a platform to potentially rant and rave um in a good way.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: But um, so tonight we're kind of stemming off of a little bit of it's an easy transition into what we talked about last week.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: So tonight we're talking about this idea of actual true sobriety and and you know abstinence from all drugs and alcohol, as opposed to this term that has become pretty popular over the last decade or so of harm reduction, right?
15:26
SPEAKER_02: The idea of are you truly fully sober or what they call California sober, um, where you smoke weed or suboxin.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: We've talked about suboxin and some of that stuff at times in this, but really like this idea of you know, is it okay to just if I'm if I'm just drinking and smoking weed or I'm just doing this as opposed to the hard drugs I'm doing, stemming into you know needle exchange programs and um you know places of where they've decriminalized all this stuff.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: Like we want to kind of talk about kind of all that stuff, but but like first and foremost, what we start with is this idea of um symptom versus the disease, right?
16:10
SPEAKER_02: So like this is kind of where it all stems from, you know, exploring the concept that the drink or the drug was just a symptom and that the real issue is our thinking and our behavior and our lack of spiritual connection, right?
16:21
SPEAKER_02: Like we all subscribe to a program of recovery um and a faith and a form of recovery that I don't even want to say emphasizes the spiritual approach, it's all about the spiritual approach, it's all about the connection with our higher powers.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: And yes, there are some pretty practical and pragmatic, you know, logistical steps along the way and things we do.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's a lot of people out there that, you know, think that like so for us, in my worst, right?
16:50
SPEAKER_02: If you remove the drugs and the alcohol, and this goes to the power of choice thing we talked about last week, but if you remove the drugs and the alcohol when I was at my absolute worst, right, I don't really get better.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I almost, I almost get even worse in terms of my thinking and my emotions and on my mentality, because now you've just taken, even though the drugs and the alcohol had stopped, quote, working, now you just took the only thing that I believed worked for me, the only solution I had to deal with and cope with life.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: So let's start there.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Let's start this with this idea of symptom versus the disease, right?
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Is it is is it just the drink or the drug that has to be removed, or is it a much deeper issue?
17:29
SPEAKER_02: And we'll go to we'll go to the ginger superman first.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like this, and I like um I think it's fitting as well because we got uh some pretty serious hate and uh and and views on the city of the world.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of where the thought was.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of where the thought came from from some of those.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, where we did an episode on on choice, you know, uh, you know, was this all a choice or or you know, and and how that plays a role in addiction?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that um you know, so it's fitting, you know, because we had a lot of people talking and and chirping on it.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: So um I so I'm sorry, what was the question again?
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh just the uh the exploring symptom versus disease, right?
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Is it enough sure to just remove the drunk drink or the drug, or is it a much deeper issue about our our behaviors and our attitudes?
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Not for me, not for me.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And um again, you know, if we look at uh you know, this is this is just straight off of uh Google, you know, but uh um there there is a model of addiction out there that that posits that it uh this is not a disease, that it is a choice.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: It's the choice model of addiction.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh and it views uh substance abuse uh as a as the result of a conscious decision making and a personal responsibility rather than an uncontrollable disease.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: It states that individuals engage in addictive behaviors through rational decision making, weighed perceived benefits against potential costs rather than being a helpless victim of a disease.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, I and I'm sure that there are are people that are affected uh in some way, shape, or form that that kind of way and and um you know make rational decisions to to act out in that kind of way.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: It's just not me, you know.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and I know uh that uh I was never like that.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: I was it was it was never, you know, um rational decision making, especially when I was in like full-blown addiction, not when I was you know in my twenties and thought I was still playing around with it and and you know, and the illusion of having a good time.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Like I always drank alcoholically.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: I I think from from really truly the very first time, you know.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: Um and certainly if not that first time because I really didn't know what I was playing with, but definitely from the second time forward, right?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I always uh drank uh to you know to get drunk, right?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, I always used to get high so that I did not have to deal with uh what was going on in my in my life, you know.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: So I think that um to to the the the choice model just makes no sense to me.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: It it makes absolutely no sense to me uh whatsoever because uh uh it was it was never like that.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Now I think that where a lot of people take issue with that and and uh want to uh fight against uh maybe medical uh you know medical diagnosis, which you know, uh the you know the the the medical community agrees that addiction is a disease, but where people want to fight against that is I think that there is the thought that and and maybe you know justifiably so because there's a lot of people out there like this, but there is the thought that we don't take accountability for our actions and we just hide behind this facade of oh, it was a disease, and I was a whole hopeless uh person, and and you know, this this just all happened to me.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, the the the whole point of this podcast, the whole point of what we do in recovery and uh what we've talked about countless times is that we do take accountability for our actions.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: It's just not it just may not be right away as soon as we get sober because we have to get sober first.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: And and I do understand, I do understand people's upset upset with that, but again, to your point, if they really understood our recovery process, they would see that kind of the most integral part is taking accountability.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: I've got several people close to me that don't understand that, that don't understand that, and it does kind of get at them in a certain kind of way because it's like, okay, well, why should you uh be put on this pedestal because you went and got sober and did the right thing?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: And I've been busting my ass uh my whole life to to just be a good human being, you know, and so why should you get all this credit?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, aga again the three of us, as well as the people that we surround ourselves with, I think we know that.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: That is not the case.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Um you know that we're not out here trying to take credit for anything, but I think that that is sometimes how we are viewed.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: I to before we kick to you, Dan, one of the things you said when you were reading that that description off of Google Greg was about uh I don't know if you have it, could you have it pulled up still?
22:21
SPEAKER_02: Can you uh the part where it says um fur first after the first two sentences about they weigh the rational choice and decision making against what was it?
22:30
SPEAKER_02: Can you read that again if you can?
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh the choice model posits that individuals engage in addictive behaviors through rational decision making, weighed perceived benefits against possess uh against potential costs rather than being helpless victims of a disease.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, so like that right there.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: All right, so guys, you're ever walk into a party and do a cost-benefit analysis before you start getting railed or what?
22:56
SPEAKER_02: No.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, you probably aren't going to too many parties if that's what you're doing.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: But on that theory, though, so I would take it even a step further, right?
23:05
SPEAKER_02: The things I did to get money to support my heroin addiction, right?
23:10
SPEAKER_02: Were some really grimy, nasty, illegal, so most times illegal things.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no way was I like, hmm, you know what?
23:19
SPEAKER_02: This bag of dope is gonna possibly leave me homeless because I'm not gonna be able to pay my rent now, and then I have like a drug test for my PO or whatever.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: Like, no, no way was I ever like, you know what?
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Those consequences, those are too much.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna get high tonight, right?
23:36
SPEAKER_02: So that whole idea of weighing that's that's absurd.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: If you if you are able, I'll say this point blank.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: If you are able to weigh the cost-benefit analysis or however it was put, if you are able to have that rational theme, like, you know what, I would love to get high tonight, but it's not gonna go good, so I'm not going to, you're probably not truly addicted, right?
23:58
SPEAKER_02: To to a degree, anyways.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's a you know, people out there, but like if you are able to have that distinction and weigh that, you're probably not addicted.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Kick it to you, Dan.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, uh I don't know about you guys, but it it was never the cost-benefit analysis.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: It was always I'm gonna figure it out.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm gonna figure it out tomorrow.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Figure tomorrow out tomorrow.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll figure tomorrow out tomorrow.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna lose my house, she's gonna be pissed, so I can't do this, and I can't do that.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: But you want to know what?
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Once I get high, I'm gonna figure this shit out.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, that literally was always the mentality.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: But first, I'm gonna get high.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Well that's what I need because that unlocks everything, you know, and all of a sudden we're rocking, you know.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: That's always but um uh more to what Greg was saying too is like you know, how people get mad that like everything we do is about you know making our wrong uh wrongs right and all that stuff.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: But like another part of it too is like I don't even think it gets that far down the road is because there's so many people that get hurt or things stolen and stuff happens, and they don't accept the excuse that he was just a drug addict or he was just an alcoholic, you know, he crashed into my family and killed one of my family members, and yeah, he was an alcoholic.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what I mean?
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I understand that part because I don't think it gets as far as down the road as us saying I'm sorry.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It's just people get hurt and they don't accept the fact that like this is the reason that people are giving you that that they they they still got hurt regardless, you know what I mean?
25:27
SPEAKER_01: I I I feel like uh I mean there is obviously people that think that that use the crutch of sobriety and what we do into not make things right and to use that as an excuse, you know what I mean.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: But I I think most most uh it it is because people get hurt and they just don't accept that as well and Dan, to that point, you're absolutely right, because to that point, how many people do we know that try to get sober and they only stay they're in and out, in and out, they stay sober a few months, so they never actually get to the part of the recovery process where they need to make amends and restitution and admit their faults.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: So their loved ones and people around them just see them continuously kind of doing the same thing and and you know, lying, cheating, stealing, and and and caught re-causing the same hurt over and over again, right?
26:11
SPEAKER_02: So I do get it on some level, yeah.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and it's just different, you know what I mean?
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Because like you were just talking about like California sobriety, there's so many different levels to different people and how they do it and how people have experienced it in their lives and stuff like that, where like people just get sick of hearing it.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
26:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like a that's like it's on us, like people like us that actually walk the road and travel the road and do these things to maybe you know what I mean, talk to somebody and something like that where we can explain it to our family and they understand more.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: And you know, like Greg was saying, people in his family still don't understand and they still won't.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I mean that's just that's just part of it.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: That's just like a part of what it is.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, but w as long as we keep doing what we're doing, and same thing to like uh what the original question was, um you know, like uh you know, having a a choice to do things and stuff like that.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: How many times did I I mean you guys too, I'm sure, you know, how many times did I try to stop the drink or the drug?
27:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, I stopped the drink and I only did this, I stopped the drug and I only did this, I stopped both and I only did this.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: But magically I always came back to it.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
27:16
SPEAKER_01: So like it really wasn't a hard concept to swallow that you know the problem was a spiritual condition that I lacked.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't the actual substance that I was using.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, I mean that's the you know, the whole it's so funny how much hate and how like how hardcore people are on the choice and addiction thing.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, like it's just like such a staunch view of like it's like politics, man.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is like pol like this is what I view, and there's nothing else that is right no matter what, you know, no matter what other people's experiences are.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: And that's like well, I think you bring up a good point too with that is that like there's no taking back the wrong shit that we've done, right?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, um, we do everything we can to make it right and make it better and try and rebuild and and work on those relationships, but there's no taking it back.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And the and I can sit here and hear somebody out during an amends process.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: I can um, you know, do my best to to to try and feel empathy towards them and and try and make it right, but I can't sit in their shoes and experience me myself doing that shit to them, you know.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: So I think that that there's something to be said for that, and I'm glad you touched on it.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, and again, it's this it can be as simple as this sometimes.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: Like the way I know that I'm a real alcoholic and drug addict is when you take away my drugs and alcohol without anything to replace it, I get worse, right?
28:42
SPEAKER_02: I act out even more.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: I was already a shithead, right?
28:45
SPEAKER_02: I was already trying to steal everything you had and do I get worse.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: I go, I get grimier, I go to any length to get the money I need to or the next to the for the next fix, right?
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Because that's all that matters.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the in the worst part of my addiction, if you wanted me to behave, just give me the drugs and the alcohol and let me go be alone or go be with the one or two people that still wanted to be around me that were also getting high, and I'd I'd leave you alone.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: You wouldn't see me for a while, you know.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: I might overdose and die.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: But like, but the point being, you know, you take that away, and that's when I come out of the woodwork, and I am you know belligerent and deceitful and and even more so than I was, right?
29:25
SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the one of the counterpoints to the whole symptom verse disease thing.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's like oh yeah, sorry, real quick.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: It's just like it's a little wild, like when you think about it, like everyone's you know, it's a choice, it's a choice.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like you honestly think that these people are consciously choosing to shoot up fentanyl and die.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Like just to meet like you know what I mean, like like you you like the choice is like you know what, you know, like how much I don't even know what the numbers are.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: This might kill me, but you know what?
29:53
SPEAKER_02: Fuck it.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the stats on that, you know, how much does that happen a day?
29:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, you think all those people, all those numbers that's like everyone's just waking up, like, yeah, let's do this, you know what I mean?
30:02
SPEAKER_01: This is the way, you know.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the choice I want to make today.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: So let's lead that into the whole idea of like true sobriety.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: So I know what true sobriety means to me, right?
30:16
SPEAKER_02: True sobriety means complete abstinence from all substances, including weed and suboxin and methadone.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: I only name those because those are kind of the some of the more common ones we hear.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: No cratom, no, no kava, even, you know, for me, not none of that stuff.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: And but it's this is where I do sympathize a little bit.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: That's easy for me to say.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: It's an easy decision for me to or an easy conclusion for me to come to about real sobriety because I was addicted to all of that stuff.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
30:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm not one of these guys that only had like a heroin problem and didn't smoke weed or only drank and didn't really do drugs to where I I might be able to like trick myself into thinking, even though I don't I think people know what they're doing, that weed's okay.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: Like I it was never it was never a question mark for me of like, oh, I wonder if there are certain substances I could do safely.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: So this idea of California sober, I hate even that term as it sounds so stupid.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, the Suboxin maintenance stuff.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Like, do you guys know and like truly this is a serious question?
31:27
SPEAKER_02: Do you guys know anyone that leads a happy, successful life just doing suboxing?
31:34
SPEAKER_02: Like they've given up all the other stuff, but like just doing suboxing.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Do you guys know anyone?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I don't know anyone personally uh that that we've had a conversation about.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've met people in recovery along the way.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Um I can't attest to where they're at right now.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: I hope they're doing better.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I hope that they're enjoying their life.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: And I guess there's there's no real way to gauge another person's happiness.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's a little bit.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna that's what exactly what I was gonna get.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, but like like so, for instance, my wife has a friend and she has an uncle who has been on Suboxin for like, I think she said like 30 years.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: That might be a little bit of a gross over, but like a long, long time, like more than a decade, more than two decades.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: And she in like one breath said, like, well, this is like he's better than he's ever been, you know, especially how he was on the on the the hard drugs.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: But then she also in like the same breath has been like, Yeah, but like he doesn't really do much, he just kind of is kind of like essentially I'm paraphrasing now, but essentially moving aimlessly through life, and like the family kind of has to take care of him and stuff, and you know, yeah, he's not like belligerent or mean, and he's like a a a nice guy and seems happy, but doesn't he hasn't really amounted to anything.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Like he's basically, you know, if his family wasn't there to take care of him, he might not make it, right?
32:55
SPEAKER_02: And he might go back.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: So I guess that's where it is.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, yeah, we can we can harm reduction all we want, and we can give the dope addict the Suboxin and they and they they stay off the dope.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, maybe they can go get a job at you know, Publix Bag and Groceries, no offense to any of our listeners that work at Publix.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: I know it's a great company, and you know, but like I don't know, man, like think about us, you know, we got sober, we all we none of us.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Dan, I know you were married and had a kid, but essentially we didn't have families intact when we got here.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, we didn't really have careers or directions in life anywhere we were going.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: And now look, look, look at us now, right?
33:35
SPEAKER_02: So I guess that's the big question is what what what's the quality of life if that's the route you choose to take?
33:43
SPEAKER_02: You know, either either you can take that from there.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: There's a reason why, like every time like I have three friends, you know what I mean?
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Two of them drink like non-alcoholic beverages, you know what I mean?
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Which to me is like you know, like that's yeah, it's yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: There's a reason why whenever I see it, I have a friend that's been on Suboxing for like 13 years, and you know what I mean.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: There's a reason why I get nervous about that.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
34:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not some made up fallacy that the reason why I get nervous about that, you know.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Like I know personally, it's like you know, that to me, honestly, it's like if you're doing that, like uh I I might as well just drink, bro.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Just let it rip, man.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, because that's just a matter of like why do you need that replace?
34:21
SPEAKER_01: It's a you're playing the mind game, that's uh the the spiritual condition, the mental condition, and all these things that like and I mean I see it in recovery meetings uh uh here.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I think I talked about it with you guys before is that I met people which you know why it was really hard for me when I first came here that are at these meetings and you know what I mean, and they're at they're out talking about their own suboxin or they smoke weed or they do this stuff, and it was hard for me because I just don't understand.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
34:47
SPEAKER_01: To me on every level, that's just not sober.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not just about like we just talked about the drink and the drug or whatever you're doing and you put down, it's about the way you live, you know what I mean?
34:57
SPEAKER_01: How is your spiritual condition defined through your life, you know, and like all these things on living the right way is that you know, when you get back to that point, if you're living the wrong way, and um, yeah, I mean it's just super, I just don't it's hard for me to even comprehend it, man.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I that's kind of where I'm at.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was taught things a certain way, and you know what I mean.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: We were all taught pretty much the same way, you know what I mean, to do things like and it's just like it's hard for me.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like you know, not saying I'm both, you know what I mean.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: When I started in the medium, like I'm this and I'm this, you know what I mean?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Like it's yeah, I don't know.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: It's just hard for it's hard for me to understand.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm at a point where it's like, hey, if you have I'm I'm willing to hear your side of the story, not not because I think I can I can do it.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: I have I have no questions that I can't touch anything and I'd have no desire to, but like, all right, if I meet you in the rooms recovery and you you tell me this story, and then you tell me you're gonna just smoke, like I'm I'd like to hear why you think that's okay.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: I just don't understand it.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: I guess is mostly the point.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't agree with it, and I wasn't to your point, Dan, I wasn't taught that way, but it's like I'm open to hear to hearing a good argument for it, but guess what?
36:03
SPEAKER_02: No one has one, right?
36:04
SPEAKER_02: Because the truth is the people that say, like, oh, I'll just I'm gonna smoke weed because of this, they smoke weed because they want to smoke weed and they want to get high and they like the effect produced by the weed.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: It's not, I'm sorry.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Let me say this.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Um let me not talk in absolutes.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Very few rare cases is it actually to help some kind of medical diagnosis, or I don't I don't disbelieve that there are people out there that it helps for medical reasons, but like the people we come across that are coming off the streets from crack addictions and and drug and alcohol abuse that stay sober six months and then they're like, you know what, I'm just gonna smoke weed because like helps with my anxiety and does this, like that's bullshit, in my opinion.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: You just want to you just want to get high.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, and I'd much rather you say that than try to convince us that either you didn't think the weed would be a problem or that it actually helps with something, you know.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: Greg, what are your thoughts?
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that the way I try to live now is is that I I really do try to keep it on myself.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: I when I attend abstinence-based recovery meetings, I I uh speak and talk about the recovery that I know the the which is what we've always talked about, what we've already talked about tonight, you know, the complete and total abstinence.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Because for me, I have something that that rests not only uh in my in my physical body, but also in my mind and and in my you know, ultimately in my spirit, right?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Um everything you guys have talked about already, you know, it's it's just it's it's us, it's me, you know.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: The that you know, you take away my favorite stuff and I get worse.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Um I do think that there is um, you know, uh I mean obviously we can we can talk all we want to about big pharma and stuff like that, but if this stuff wasn't helping some people uh in a very broad sense, you know, I I don't know if it would be as popular as it is.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Um so so we have to I guess recognize that.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's fair.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: Um you know if if it's if it's keeping somebody from shoving a needle in their arm and dying today, great, I'm all for it.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think at the end of the day, um you really have to take a look at where you want to be in life, you know, and and um I I have a couple family members who um are definitely, definitely, you know, I'm not gonna diagnose them, but but uh if it if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, right?
38:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, and so it drinks like a fire, right?
38:57
SPEAKER_00: It drinks right, right, right, right.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: So I have uh a couple of family members and you know both of them are they're playing with fire currently, you know, playing the smoke and weed game, have been for years.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: One of them it's causing a huge amount of health problems.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like talking about like has been in the hospital four times in the last two months, you know, with a GI bleed and everything else causing a lot of problems.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Still, you know, a hundred percent believes that the pain management doctors that she's been seeing for a decade are you know her buddies and that they're prescribing her the right stuff.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: And you know, again, I don't want to get into all that and go down all that road, but like I can see it.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: I can see it and I can I can hear it in their voices when they talk, and I can see it on them.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, the other family member is scared to come home, they don't want to come home to Cleveland, they they don't they don't want to come back here because they're scared of what might happen if they do, you know, and it's like man, I spent so many years looking over my shoulder.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Why would I want to do that now?
40:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, now that now that I'm I you know have a family, I'm living a worthwhile life, you know.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: I have a good job, I'm making money, I'm you know, checking all the boxes, enjoying all of life's uh finer things.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to look over my shoulder anymore.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: I want to be able to wake up and look the world in the eye, you know, and I and I think that part of that is like I said, that's just uh playing with fire.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think that you you know, obviously you do that long enough, you're gonna get burned.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that that harm reduction when it comes to real deal drug addicts and alcoholics, I I don't necessarily think that um it works.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Certainly not in the long run.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: And again, we can sit here and say, like, who are we to judge what happiness is for somebody else?
41:03
SPEAKER_00: I always try to when I when I do interact with those people, I'm I'm really quick to check myself and not you know come off preachy to them, but just hey, this is the life I live today, and like look at look at what you could enjoy, you know, um on the other side of what you're doing.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: So I think I think where I net out on all of it is like if you truly are addicted, you are an addict, and and listen, we can't answer that for other people.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: It's a self- we are right, it's a self-diagnosed disease.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: We can we can tell you what we think and we can make some good assumptions, and we're not usually wrong, but ultimately it's up to each individual to settle for themselves, right?
41:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, qualify yourself.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I have this thing.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: If you are one of those, then I don't truly think you can lead the life that God intended you intends you to lead while doing any kind of substance, right?
42:02
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean that, and but that also posits the theory that this said individual has any desire or interest to get in touch with that God, right?
42:12
SPEAKER_02: To get in touch with that side of themselves.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: Um I don't think they can.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you can smoke weed or do Saboxin or, you know, whatever else is there, crad them, you know, drink here and there, and truly, truly lead like a happy, successful life.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: And success is different, it's relative, it's different to some people.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, some things are more important than others, but we all kind of know, like each individual knows their own internal happiness and and and stuff.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Then if you can do that, you're you're probably not a true alcoholic or addict, right?
42:48
SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, we do get a lot of those people in our rooms of recovery that um had some consequences and had the the bad situations, but maybe they aren't like full-blown, you know, drug addicted or alcohol.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of where I net out on it, you know.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Like well, and and the other thing too is is well, I I always go back to uh or think back to this thing in that I remember from rehab actually.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: But do you guys remember the stick man?
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do they ever do that the stick man drawing on the thing and the and explains all of it?
43:23
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, essentially, you know, what we're doing, you know, when we're obviously with with suboxin, which you know is um a heavily addictive drug in and of its own right.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Um people can argue all the live long day about weed and whatnot, whether it's addictive, yada yada yeah.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: But um I would say like with suboxin, right?
43:46
SPEAKER_00: If you're prescribed suboxin, do yourself a little experiment, give that suboxin to somebody and have them lock it in a safe that you don't know the combination to.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: And tell me how you feel after 24 hours.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: hours and then after 48 hours tell me what you're willing to do to get into that safe you know and and and all of the all of your morals and all that kind of stuff will go out the window really quick.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I will I'd I'd bet a paycheck on it.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: So with that like if I do have this physical craving and I and it's coupled with a mental obsession and I'm just kick starting that physical craving every single day then I'm just I'm still stuck in in the endless cycle right I I might be I might you know it it might look different because I have a doctor saying here you go instead of you know having to do the grimy shit that I would do to get it before but I'm still in just this never ending cycle you know how do we feel about uh needle exchange programs and like places in our country and and other countries I know there are that like basically safe zones where you can go get high they'll give you clean needles and clean equipment to use these drugs and you can just kind of go get high and yes it it mitigates the risk of you know hepatitis a little bit and AIDS and dying from you know and all that stuff couple that with the the drug checking kits like not not not an actual drug test that like our parents gave us growing up but like the kits where they can they can test like test for if there's like bad shit in it or stuff you know whatever the case may be how do we feel about that stuff that that is a little bit of hard harm reduction I can get behind to be honest with you.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: And and I used to maybe feel a little bit differently about it.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: But then you come back to you know being close to an inner city you take take one walk through Kensington or I wouldn't recommend walking through Kensington actually drive through it.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: Unless you have cornrows like Dan unless you're cornroad up right in got that swag about you but um no it's it's a very uh for lack of a better term it's it's sobering to walk through that and holy shit like this is bad you know and um so as far as far as that's concerned if those people are doing that to try and help and and you know even even just something dumb like you know if if if we're helping a little kid not walk over a a dirty used needle and possibly get stabbed in the foot with it then you know I think that's a little bit of good done in the world.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: So yeah I Dan I'll let you take it.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I'm I I'm all for it.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean because those people are going to get high and the fact that they're making it safe safer for them to get high you know and then also like most of the time in those areas if someone's gonna OD or something like that, that means there's people there and there's going to be uh ambulance called and something's gonna happen and maybe that person gets some help maybe that don't but it's probably better than hiding in uh abandoned building by yourself no one's gonna find your body for 74 days you know I mean that's another one I look at those people are gonna get high you know they're they're gonna get high and they're making it safer yeah that's a tough one man and I I because I hear everything you guys just said and I don't I don't really disagree with it.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm I am all for saving a life on a Monday so that maybe they can get sober on a Tuesday right like I I get it because if you die on Monday there's no chance of getting sober on Tuesday and and I do but I do understand like the really low bottoms that are you know homeless and on skid row and in the abandoned buildings like yeah they're they're most likely going to get high and stuff but I I just I can't help the feeling of we're making it okay right and I know that sounds a little like maybe closed minded and kind of one-sided but it's what about the people like us that rolled through those programs that we had the ability to get sober and what do I mean by that like I mean like we we still had some form of family that wanted to help us that was hope.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: We still had we may not have had the means but there were there were people and situations in our life that could get us to treatment rehab the rooms of recovery whatever the case may be I know that's not the case for some people some people have lost everything and they're just unfortunately going to die on the streets you know with a dirty needle hanging out of their arm and yes that's for them it's maybe a different thing but like then you have this whole other contingent of people that that kind of like what does our literature say right many could recover if they had the opportunity we have enjoyed right that's kind of where I net I get at it's like it's hard for me to get behind these programs and these places in our country and other countries that condone the behavior right I do understand though that with that the fallout is you do get some people that are going to die right you you would get some people that are not going to make it and I guess if you're you know talk to the mom or dad that has one of that happen to their children you know like they're singing a different tune but it's a it's a hard I I even had someone I think I shared this on the pod before someone at our local recovery meeting place not necessarily my group but uh uh the meeting hall that we have a lot of different groups at they put uh naloxone and and whatever the other one is on the wall you know um at the meeting hall in case anybody dies and or anybody ODs and this person who I respect highly and and and sober longer than me and I've been very close with was like radically against it on the theory of this is gonna sound really harsh but like on the theory like when people are are I don't even like saying it but like when they're meant to die they're meant to die and having that stuff there is almost to the point I just said like condoning the behavior I don't fully get behind that and I think that's a little radical but that is definitely what their point was and I I do understand that to a degree I don't want anyone dying at my feet let me say that and if I have the opportunity to save someone I mean I drive around with that stuff in my trunk I have to for work uh but I'm glad I do you know yeah I I think I mean to me honestly because that's like like you said that's like a super hot take to me that's that that's like it what we were talking about before if you want to give someone the uh the the take that you're uh holier than thou and above them and to have that viewpoint that I'm sober and that you know some people are just meant to die.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean I did it this way you have to do it this way you know like that that that to me is like total total nonsense on every level.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: No I I I was kind of blown away when they said it like that.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: I was like like really like that's really that's how you feel about that.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah like you said I understand the premise of it but like that's like you know what I mean if you're in a in in a sobriety location and trying to like I mean to to me it's just wild to not have the mindset of like maybe if we save this person's life today then their life can continue on and stuff like that.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: Maybe them almost dying and having to get in a rec in a recovery hall.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah you know would might be the wake up call they need yeah exactly that might be their bottom that's that's yeah that's that's kind of how I I see it with that stuff I feel like it was I feel like it was if someone OD'd like in in the in the recovery meeting he would just keep the meeting going.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Yep probably while reading while reading something like when when I reach out my hand I want the hand of recovery to reach back and grab mine but not that guy back there.
51:40
SPEAKER_02: Hey uh actually we would say hey Greg and Dan will you you guys get on that I'm gonna keep this I'm gonna keep this thing going what about like um you know the idea of uh we already talked about like medication assisted treatment and that's kind of the whole the whole the boxing thing and stuff like that but um like what are we doing to bring these people and I guess it kind of ties in with the treatment industry and stuff like that and we've talked about that ad nauseum I don't really want to get in too much into it tonight but there's so many different kinds of recovery out there nowadays right like like for instance you know and and and we're not particular to any I mean we on this podcast we don't talk about any one particular kind of recovery and stuff we talk about our own experience but you know for a long time you know 12-step recovery was the way to go for forever and ever and ever and then you know as the years went on they had that smart recovery stuff come up and then they had the medication assisted treatment and now they have like I don't know like the Dharma way through recovery the Buddhist recovery stuff like real quick just give a couple of thoughts on that I mean I guess I guess it's the easy answer is whatever works do it right whatever works for you do it and what what worked for us or for me may not work for other people but I just I have a hard time with those other alternative forms of recovery that that you know is it really true yeah I don't know what do you guys think yeah I mean I mean to to me like it's like I like obviously have a hard time understanding it but like the tangible evidence that I've seen is that it doesn't work.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: You know like I it does not work no that it does not work because I physically have seen the evidence and these other things it's like you know uh people we got sober with that we were living with and stuff like that.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: You know people that we both oh we all we all know you know that like uh just go to work you know make money build my life back up and do it's like alternative ways to get sober but even also alternative ways that I come up with that I think will work you know that I I saw multiple times happen and those people are in and out still to this day you know and then also like I mean dude just the way we live like I love the fact that every night I come home and if something is off or like something at work or my family or something like that that I can't go to sleep.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: I love that I freaking love that.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean and you can tell people that don't you know and those are the people that I mean and this is not teach his own man I'm all for it.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Like dude if you're gonna stay sober off of bowling phenomenal awesome we can hang out cool you know I mean I've just never seen it work for a long period of time to where you're to me what is a desired life you know like that to me on like how you want to be as a human being as a father as a son as a all that stuff that like I've never seen it work to be a desired life or a life that you're gonna actually be able to continue to live you know it all that it always falls out.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: That's the that's kind of the point too it's like we how many people do we know that stayed sober for multiple years and then they relapsed and either died or just never saw them again I I sometimes it's like we we forget like oh well that person's been sober for four years like it must be working well okay yeah but what happens when they get drunk after their fifth year and they never make it back I mean take Brian Beattie for example guys like he was sober seven almost eight years he relapsed for various reasons we don't have to get into and and but like he never fully made it back and he died you know he died it's like this isn't just about oh well they stayed sober for six years good good on them right it's not about that this is about a complete lifestyle overhaul spiritual awakening psychic change hopefully strong enough and to where I stay active enough in that recovery that I can have permanent sobriety right yep so and and help a few souls along the way absolutely help a few souls along the way start a podcast with your friends there you go and you know so I think what else anything in closing guys anything that uh you want to wrap up on yeah I mean I echo all the same sentiments that Dan just said man and and like we you're you're as free as you want to be in all this yeah at the end of the day if what is working for you is working for you great but if you also on the other hand maybe struggle with with your personal relationships maybe maybe you you know um the whatever harm reduction you're using or whatever cost benefit analysis uh that you're weighing uh and and all that kind of stuff is is starting to interfere in your personal life your work life your relationships with your children your spouse the rest of your family um if you're um staring at a wall just wondering like you know hey man I I my my life isn't as good as I want it to be you know right if you're if you're scared to go outside to enjoy yourself if you're scared to go anywhere um in any specific place because you're afraid of what might happen I'd love to go to that concert but I'm just I'm afraid that you know a a joint might fly out of the air and land right in my mouth you know um or something like that then I would honestly take a look at that take a good long hard look you know and then talk to some people that doesn't have to be us there's a lot of people out there like us you know um but talk to some people uh about it and you know because um odds are you could you can have a much better easier way of going and if you've been doing it a certain way and it's been working and then it like maybe starts to stop working don't be afraid to ask new questions and try new methods either you know what I mean like that's it like I listen you up you guys know like I the way I've the recovery I subscribe to it's been you know you could almost predict in a way what my routines have been for the last 15 plus years because that's what gives me that you know that's what helps bring me that joy I love the routine I love the process of it I love our our meetings and our groups and our friends and our everything we do.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: So if it's working for a while but then it kind of stops working or you're a little unfulfilled or something man don't be afraid to try new things and try new avenues and mix it up and ask questions.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: So yeah like one thing I was gonna say is uh you know like if you depend on one thing to be happy whether albeit money your job uh car uh this certain other you know whatever remedy medication you're taking or anything like that and you can't wake up and just be grateful to be alive and be happy then they probably have a problem yeah then here's your here's your sign so good stuff boys I always appreciate the intelligent conversation and I uh hey don't the commenters don't stop commenting we look forward to those comments give us the hate give us the love we can handle it we've all got broad shoulders we all just blame it on Corey anyways so um corey's in the midst of of a an internet battle with probably 12 people right now easily easily so he called them all out and they all met at the local target so that's why he couldn't be internet shout out to our listeners please like follow and share on all socials at Trud ReportPod email us trudgereportpod at yahoo.com or just send a comment send in your mailbag request for topics questions comments to any of these handles remember we are all here sincerely we are all here if anyone wants to talk about recovery our experiences or if you're struggling with some form of addiction or anything that we can help with um remember we are uh we're here uh and we want to be helpful um we are brought to you by Stella Mix Podcast Management we want to thank Stella Mix very very much uh for being our wonderful producers and editors and helping us bring you this show we will see you all next week and trudge the road of happy destiny until then cheers