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Elaine Appleton Grant: How to Develop Your Listening Skills · The Daily Writer

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Writer.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer: creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers, as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: On this podcast, we talk a lot about skills related to writing.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, those are vital.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Those are absolutely essential.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the most undervalued yet one of the most critical skills we must learn to develop is the skill of listening.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this is important for writers because we must be able to discern and interpret what we hear in the world around us.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing client work, listening is vital because you've got to deliver writing and service that meets the client's expectations and needs.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: But even if you're only writing for yourself, listening is vital because listening is not just a writing skill, it's a human skill.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: We live in a world that is increasingly fragmented and fractured.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And as a communicator, you must learn to interact with the world with empathy, understanding, and compassion.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it's pretty hard to be relevant or successful if you're not a good listener.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I'm thrilled to have my good friend Elaine Appleton Grant as a guest on today's episode.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Elaine leads Podcast Allies, a podcast production and training company for mission-driven clients who believe in the power of high-quality storytelling.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lifelong journalist, Elaine worked at WBUR Boston, New Hampshire Public Radio, and Colorado Public Radio.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: She produced Wondery's hit podcast, Business Wars Daily, which has been downloaded more than 10 million times.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Elaine also wrote Wondery's American History Teller series, The Tulsa Race Massacre, and co-hosted the serialized medical ethics drama Hard Call.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Podcast Allies also produces Environmental Defense Funds degrees podcast for climate-change focused job seekers.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: When she's not producing, coaching, or teaching, she loves hiking and kayaking and has an obsession with libraries.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: She once lived in a house built in 1792 at the end of a dirt road in New Hampshire, populated by bears, moose, and a whole lot of history.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as you can tell, Elaine is a fascinating person who's had a wide variety of experiences, and she brings all that to bear on the awesome work that she does in podcasting and also with her clients and friends.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Elaine also has an amazing gift of truly connecting with people in conversations.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And as you'll hear, she shares a lot of wisdom about how to key in on what others are saying, different aspects of listening, and the value of empathy in today's world.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can connect with Elaine and her website, podcastallies.com.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's get to my conversation with Elaine Appleton Grant.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Elaine, thanks so much for taking time to be on the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have been thinking about doing an episode for a while now, and I'm so glad we were able to work this out and that we're here to have a conversation about such an important topic like listening.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So delighted to be here, Kent.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to talk about this topic of listening because number one, it's it's a vital topic for every area of our lives.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: But number two, whenever I thought through the people that I know who I felt could add a lot of value related to this topic, and also who are great listeners and communicators, you were immediately the first person that I thought of.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's what kind of led to this conversation today.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very flattered.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess my first question is how do we shut off the noise in our brain to first of all be better listeners?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if anybody's listening closely, basically this episode is me talking about how bad of a listener that I am and how do I become a better listener?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm framing it in more generalized questions.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So my if my wife listens to this, you know, there won't be like an immediate negative response or something.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: But really, I'm asking, how how do I shut off the noise in my brain?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Social media, emails, task lists.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that we can be more effective in doing that so we can really key in on what other people are actually saying?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love this question.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a good question.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um what it leads me to first is that I think that we operate as listeners differently depending on the type of conversation it is, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if I am interviewing somebody, and of course I teach interviewing skills uh as a journalist, I'm listening very differently and I'm more, I'm probably more capable, to be honest, in that situation than I am if, say, I'm in a hard conversation with someone, you know, I have a disagreement, or the stakes are personally really high, you know, which happens with our husbands and wives and loved ones, and um that's a different kind of listening.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are different kinds of distractions that get in the way.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So for instance, um, you know, it's a it's a Monday when we're recording this, and I came into today with like a list of things that I wish I had gotten done last week and that I have to do or that I'm worried about.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what I want to do as your guest, or, you know, if the tables were turned and I were interviewing you, I can say to myself, my only job right now is to be present for this conversation.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is my task for the next half hour or hour, whatever it is that we've set aside.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of, I don't know, it takes the burden off.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can just shut everything else off.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's not necessarily the same if I'm, you know, I'm looking at my to-do list and I've got a million things on it and I'm in the middle of trying to finish something on deadline, and somebody calls me with a question, then, you know, it's just so much harder.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I have to probably be better myself at making the decision to not answer the phone right then, you know, to only answer the phone or only agree to a conversation that takes more listening than I have the capability for when I'm when I'm not as distracted.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So is a big part of this, would you say, self-awareness and and being aware of our emotions, our feelings in the moment, being aware that maybe we are distracted and just that awareness and knowledge that we have all this stuff going on?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: That almost seems like half the battle in becoming a better listener.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really, yeah, I think it is because I did actually go through that exercise this morning.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, um, should I do this, you know, this meeting at 10 o'clock that's optional, that's an hour before I'm scheduled to talk to you, or should I pay attention to, you know, what I'm thinking about in regard to this conversation about listening?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided, and I'm not usually this mature, uh, but I just try to fit in way too much stuff.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided, you know what?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can watch the replay of that particular uh webinar.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to attend it and then come all sort of flustered.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and that, you know, is obviously self-awareness.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think so.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other part is um there's so many pieces to that, but what's at stake?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so in a way, um, what's at stake and also where do I feel most competent?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I feel relatively competent talking about listening as a as a lifelong journalist.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and um, you know, I was really looking forward to this conversation because I love talking with you, Kent, and I really enjoy your podcast.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you ask great questions.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, so I can look forward to it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's fun.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going, oh, you know, this is gonna be a hard conversation.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing, there's nothing really scary about it.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that there are a lot of things at play with turning off the noise in our heads.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me let me use myself as a guinea pig.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, goodness.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So so as we're having this conversation, I'm the way that that my brain functions is it's like a bunch of open apps at once.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if everybody sees their brain like this, but I'm a very task-oriented, introverted person.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I have about 17 different processes going on in my mind at once.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, right now, in this moment, as we're recording this, one emotion that I'm feeling is I feel bad that I messed up my microphone situation for this interview.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, those who are listening to this later will not have been aware of that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: But right before we got on this call, I had a microphone issue and we had to stop and figure it out.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so emotionally, I'm feeling still a little bit flustered and frustrated at myself for that.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about this client call I have in a couple hours, uh, kind of a big client call.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about um, you know, something I've got to do tonight.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I accidentally busted a table on our on our deck yesterday, getting ready for some friends to come over.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And now I've got to go home and clean that up.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how have you found as a journalist and as somebody who asks great questions and you're a great listener, how do you deal with all those processes going on in your head at the same time and sort of shove those aside, but then really be present in the moment?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'd have I I never really thought about listening in terms of just being present in the moment until you put words to that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I that seems to really hit the nail on the head for me.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm glad.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I think, I mean, you know, first of all, it it's not like uh it's a perfect process at all.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So as we are talking, and I really appreciate you being like super honest about all that stuff because it's so hard to do, you know.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am aware and concerned that, you know, my my fiance has an office that is basically right next to where I'm sitting and recording this, and I can hear him in the background.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, during the recording setup, you and I talked about this, and you can't hear him for uh which I'm very grateful for.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously we would have had to reschedule or something.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's but that's on your mind in the moment.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's annoying me.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like I want that sound to go away.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or if I shift in my chair, I'm hearing a little thump and I'm thinking, uh-oh, did that like I just did it.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I talk with my hands and um, and you know, I'm a podcast producer and I train people on podcasting.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so the last thing I want to do is like really poor audio quality practices for you as a guest.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so I'm distracted by that, of course.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but I do think I do think there's something about well, you and I can we both belong to this community called TLF, total life freedom community.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I really love about that community is what Vincent Paguisi teaches from the get-go, which is sort of um generosity of spirit.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I've really taken that to heart.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a real connector anyway.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I I sort of, when I conceived of this idea of my only task, like right this minute, is to be as fully present as I can.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of think like your full presence to somebody else is a gift.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: So your full presence to me as an interviewer is a, you know, just the fact that you're interested or you thought of me for this topic is also a gift to me.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that helps.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, of course it depends on how positive the interaction is.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are times when all you want to do is run away, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then the distractions are worse.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think there's that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing is um how often have you done the task at hand, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was like 18, I met a newspaper editor and I asked him, How do I become a better writer?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, take out a legal pad and write one page on that legal pad every single day for six months about anything, and look back in six months and you will see that your writing has improved.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just you just do it over and over again.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think practice has a lot to do with it.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you do it, especially with as I think about this, right?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I really haven't thought about it consciously before.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: But as I think about it as like my job is to be fully present, I think if I practice that, it's gonna get easier and easier.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny, I I think that is that's a good insight that I had never thought about.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny that you mentioned TLF.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So just this morning, I was listening to one of the newer episodes.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, by the time this comes out, it won't be so new, but uh to me today on April the 5th, as we're recording this, this was a newer episode.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Vincent was talking about worry on his podcast.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems to me like so much of the things that occupy our mind, and or maybe I should just say my mind, I'll just make it personal and honest that way.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the things that occupy my mind are the tasks that I need to complete today or this week or this quarter or whatever it is.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: But there's really not a lot of purpose, there's not a lot of value of constantly thinking about those tasks because that doesn't actually help them help to get those things done unless you're doing them in that moment.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes up so much mental energy from other things, like being present with the people that you're talking to.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like being so task-oriented, it's sucking energy away from relationships, from your productivity, and from everything else.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I had never really put those two things together.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even, I'm not even totally sure if I'm making any sense at all right now.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: But but you've you've kind of opened up this whole idea that being a task-oriented person and thinking about all those things or all those worries or concerns doesn't actually give you the the ability to do anything about them.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just is kind of taking up bandwidth in a way.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's true.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I listened to the exact same episode because huge warrior.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was, you know, it's it's a great episode.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh and I high I highly recommend it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I am like that too, Ken.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm uh I I wouldn't describe myself as an introvert, but I would describe myself as as quite introspective, you know.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking, I think too much, you know.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I and uh and I'm very task-oriented as well.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And but, you know, there's all this science that says we can't really multitask, it's not possible.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And every time you switch from one task to another, it takes at least 10 minutes to sort of get back into the original task.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really better to try to block off time for whatever task is at hand.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been trying to practice that a lot more in in every aspect, you know, it's not just to do with listening.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that actually is making a difference.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, the other thing too is that um although I think I'm a a good listener, and perhaps it's intuition or by practice, as a journalist, I have definitely been accused of being a terrible listener in personal relationships.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to work on that, and it's much tougher.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, again, um I I do think this whole idea of being fully present is plus we know what it feels like, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: If if I'm trying to talk to you and tell you something important to me, and you're going, you're you're kind of listening, but your eyes are shifting somewhere else, or you're glancing at your phone, or like we know, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: We do.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and it hurts.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to be more conscious of that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm by no means, you know, any better than most of us, but I'm I'm trying really hard.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I do think, and I think in part it's because you asked me about listening.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we set this up, I don't know, a few weeks ago, a month ago.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I think just simply in part because you asked me about it, I've been thinking about it more and trying to be more conscious about it.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm totally fascinated by it now, beyond just the practice of journalism.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has definitely opened up a lot of a lot of new thoughts in my mind.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the reasons why I love podcasting so much, is because just having a place to invite people to and have a conversation, for me, aside from all the other benefits of podcasting, that fact alone, just having a conversation about a simple topic, it opens up so many possibilities and opens up so much more awareness in my life.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So now that when I go home today and I'm talking to my wife and my son, who will be 17 in just a few days, you know, he's in that teen years kind of phase.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm immediately going to be thinking about, I need to be more aware in these conversations.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to just be thinking about 15 other things and just kind of do the uh-huh, uh-huh, and pretend I'm listening kind of thing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So even just being aware of something without having to feel like you've solved all the world's problems, I think that has so much of value in and of itself.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you're absolutely right.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, I don't know where to go from there.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, I do.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that I that I want to ask you about because um I I perceive you to be uh what's the word I'm looking for?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like in this conversation, I'm less prepared than I normally am because I don't just want to tick off a list of questions like I knew for this one on listening that I really wanted, I wanted to kind of practice what what this conversation is about.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I perceive you to be a person who has a high degree of emotional and social awareness.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best way I can put that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm bowled over, thank you.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I mean I've always gotten that impression from you that that you're you're a person who is highly aware of what other people are thinking and feeling, and I think that's a rare thing, uh, because we've all come across people who don't seem to have that, and it's immediately obvious whenever they they don't have so you know, there's somebody in my extended family who has no social awareness, they just say whatever comes to mind, regardless of whether it's offensive.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: We all know people like that.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so, my question to you is in your experience as a human being and as a journalist, how can we start to become more empathetic to other people who are different than us?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I look around at our world today, it seems like one of the best qualities that we could develop personally and as a culture and as the human race is empathy, because we don't agree with everybody.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: We don't see things the same way, we have different priorities and values, but we all got to get along.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we do that better?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, thank you so much.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the best compliment I've had in years, probably.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I often sort of berate myself for being exactly the opposite of the way you described me.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because in say anxious situations where maybe there's a lot at stake, or I've been listening to a lot of Brene Brown lately.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um good stuff.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, wonderful.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she talks about basically when we're in fear, that's when we tend to lash out.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I would say I grew up with that sort of model, I think, of anger is too strong a word, but I definitely grew up in a family where my father in particular, who I adored, was incredibly blunt and um could be perceived as as pretty offensive, you know.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I can have a hard time keeping my mouth shut and uh and say the wrong things.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I I just can't tell you how uh how good that makes me feel to have you say that.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I also love the question.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Question of like how can we learn from people who are unlike ourselves and or who we disagree with?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with absolutely everything you said about in our world today, that seems to be missing so much.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Such a such a big and loaded topic, isn't it?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge topic.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is just and such a loaded topic.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if we think about the year that we have just gone through, or more than a year, particularly, you know, in our political and social environment, I've been as guilty as anybody else of stereotyping people who have political opinions that are different from mine, or just lashing out and saying, how can they think that?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and that sort of thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and of course, it's not helpful.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't change anybody's mind at all.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I'm I try when I'm at when I'm at my best to learn from people who are way better thinkers about this than I am.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a podcast that I love called Pantsuit Politics.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And hang on a second, because I actually have their book behind me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: One second.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're speaking my language when you're talking about books.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is such a good book.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was written a few years ago.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's called I think you're wrong, but I'm listening.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: A guide.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what a great title.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a good book.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: A guide to grace-filled political conversations.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the two co-hosts are Sarah Stuart Holland and Beth Silvers.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And when they started this podcast five years ago, they were on opposite sides of the aisle.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, and they're both former lawyers.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they are two of the smartest women I've ever heard.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I met them briefly.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um Sarah was sort of traditionally on the left, and Beth was traditionally on the right.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they came together to do this podcast to speak sort of smartly and with grace uh from different sides of the aisle.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some of the, some of their politics has changed over the years because, well, we we don't need to get into the details.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they wrote this book together about exactly the question that you're asking, at least when it comes to sort of societal issues, of like, how do we engage civically with each other when we just simply don't see eye to eye?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I read this and just marked it up so much I need to reread it.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was flipping through it this morning, and they wrote, I really like this.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: They say, the righteousness of unchallenged thought freezes us in time.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: We double and triple down on opinions, even as some of the information that we're basing those opinions on changes.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: We cling to views even when those views are based on experiences that are divorced from the present and future.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: The world changes.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be vigilant about what stands the test of time and what needs to change with it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you never engage with the world, the world, full of people you love and people who get on your nerves, never has a chance to push and pull you in new directions.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that amazing?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: I and so this book really challenged my thinking.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's really well written.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of wanted like to start a book club and talk through it with other people.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I really do need to go back and reread it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: But they do a lot of things.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, um they're really good about saying to each other, yes, and which, you know, I I grew up acting, and that's an improv technique.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, so instead of saying, no, I disagree with you, here's the here's my opinion, it's yes and this, and being capable of holding, you know, two contradictory thoughts at the same time, and building upon, you know, like if you have a different feeling about something from me and I disagree, I can challenge your facts, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can challenge your facts, but I can't challenge that you have that feeling, and that feeling feels like a fact to you.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and it's I don't know if you've ever been in this situation, but I used to be close to somebody who would try to tell me that I didn't feel the way I felt, or I hadn't said what I, you know, it's gaslighting.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that never goes well.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, it's maddening.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm trying to be like, well, all right, so that person feels very strongly about something that's very different than I feel.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: It, I mean, it's so hard, especially if somebody has a feeling that, well, as an example, I have done a lot of work on race.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have an interracial family.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: My son is black.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've done, you know, podcasts and TED talks or a TEDx talk about race.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: It would be very, very difficult for me to have a civil and curious conversation with someone who, I don't know, belonged to the KKK.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: But there are people who've been able to cross that line and try to understand where those values and principles are coming from and over time um change that that opinion of that person.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I mean, we're just in a difficult time.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do believe that it's one of the most important things that we can do is to try so hard to step into somebody else's shoes and at least acknowledge, at least acknowledge that you feel what you feel, and then go from there.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it seems like a big a big part of success in dialoguing with people, especially who are different than you, um, which would include every other human being because we all have differences.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a big part of this is humility.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember in uh grad school, and this was uh a religious-based grad school, so this was a seminary.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had this one professor who was this brilliant theologian, scholar type of guy.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember always remember him saying that he assumed that 20% of his theology was wrong.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: He just didn't know which 20%.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was his way of maintaining a real humility about his own views and perspectives, even though in any social setting, he would always be the guy who had read more books than you, he had written more than you, he probably had more degrees than you.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was always the guy who always was so much more accomplished than anybody else, but yet he still had a massive humility about it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned a lot from that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if we shouldn't apply that same kind of reasoning to all of our viewpoints and perspectives that, hey, maybe I'm even the things that I feel like I really feel sure about, maybe sometimes those aren't so sure.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe there's room for learning and for dialogue.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: That seems like a healthy perspective to have.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it can be hard for those of us who are, I don't know, gregarious or have, you know, an ego.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I would want to ever admit to that in public, to uh but all of us all of us have ego to some degree.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it it can be hard for people like me sometimes to just, you know, shut up and listen, as opposed to wanting to give my opinion or be the expert.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm like I said, I've been listening to a lot of Brene Brown this uh uh lately.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And this morning I was listening to her latest episode of Unlocking Us.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very much about actually, I think what she was doing was running the feed from her Darren Greatly show, which is, you know, uh more for leaders of companies or leaders within companies.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um very much talking about how if we have to be the expert, that's really poor leadership.
• 30:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Good leadership is to be able to say, I don't know, or I don't understand.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please explain, you know, your process to me or your thinking, or I need help?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I don't know about you, but I grew up in a in a situation where it was very difficult to say I need help.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was sort of trained to not show that that side, I think.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hate asking for help.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I think most of us actually hate asking for help or admitting that we don't know something.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, gosh, Kent, you you really have me thinking.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, it's my my pleasure.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It almost seems like this this is the complete opposite of uh of something that Abraham Lincoln practiced.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to the book by Doris Currents Goodwin, I think, Team of Rivals, where he knew he was not the smartest person in the room.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he he not only gathered smart people around him for his cabinet, but he gathered his rivals and his enemies to create this amazing group of advisors and leaders who you know accomplished so much.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if there's not something we we can learn from that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: That maybe instead of pushing back against people that we disagree with, that we find a way to draw them closer and have more dialogue and more discussion and uh more back and forth and more learning from each other.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know that that seems to go against a lot of what is going on in the world today, but but maybe that's a good thing.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I like your approach a lot.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um I hate to, I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but one of the things that struck me when I was listening to this Brene Brown episode this morning was that she said, um, you know, when we're having problems, you know, at her company, we each write down on a sticky note, you know, what problem are we trying to solve?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the example she was giving was it turned out that, you know, with six people arguing about something, when they looked at those sticky notes, every single person described the problem differently.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: They hadn't even agreed on what problem they were trying to solve.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that that might be in part what's going on now because, you know, if you've watched the social dilemma, we are getting, depending on the bubble you're in, you're getting like a whole different set of, for lack of a better term, facts.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they're facts, but we're not operating from the same, we're not standing on the same ground when we argue about yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: We have just there's different bubbles of culture where they're operating from completely different perspectives and points of view.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And even the fundamental assumptions of what does it mean to be human?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to be kind?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to be a nation?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that's that's why this topic is so difficult today, because when you don't even agree on the basics or the fundamentals, it becomes hard to then have a conversation about anything because you're not even talking about the same things, especially the fact is that we don't know we disagree, or that we're, you know, that we're coming from different perspectives on fundamentals because it never used to be like that.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have social media defining our worlds for us in the way that is happening these days, you know, which of course is a massive topic on its own.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've we've unpacked a lot today.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I don't know if we've solved the world's problems, but this has added a lot of value to my life because I know as a writer and as a communicator, I need and as a ghostwriter particularly, I need to always work on improving my listening skills and my skills of empathy and entering into other people's worlds who are different than me.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: But also my personal life.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my goodness, I think we can all probably stand to be better listeners to our friends, our family members, parents, kids, siblings, community members, everything.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I am wow, Elaine.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful that we've had this time to have this chat.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: This could go on for hours.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and maybe we should do a follow-up at some point because this is such a vital topic.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that actually, you know, you've really opened my eyes, and I suppose my ears, um, you know, you that there could be, you know, a six or eight part series on listening skills and listening in general right now.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm I'm truly fascinated by the topic and the and the possibilities.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can I tell you a story real quick that I heard yesterday?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so a good friend of mine here in Denver, her name is Rebecca Arno, and she runs a nonprofit called the Barton Institute.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she told me this story about getting a big, huge um community campus off the ground in Denver that does a lot of good things for the community.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's called the Dahlia Campus, and it's owned by uh the Mental Health Center of Denver.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the Mental Health Center of Denver, uh, according to my friend Rebecca, like 10 years ago, bought this unused land.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was some company that had let it fall into disrepair, and they wanted to put a mental health center on it, and the community around them was dead set against it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: They did not want this in their backyard.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the leaders uh took another staff member, said, give us a year to whomever was in charge, and they went to every single community meeting, church, neighborhood group, et cetera.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And at all of those meetings, what they said was, tell us what your community needs.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they listened for a year.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what happened after that was they came back and they built on this land an early childhood education center, a public gym, a an urban farm, um, et cetera, et cetera.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's several things for the community and the original mental health center that they had wanted.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And now the community all uses it and loves it.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now my friend's organization is using the same model, uh, and actually some of the same people, to work on a similar project in a different part of the city.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that amazing?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really cool.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it just gave me chills.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, okay, so rather than we're not going to go in and tell you why you need this so badly.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and by the way, the community is using the mental health center.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's find out from you what you need.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds so simple, but we don't do it.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't do it.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: We don't.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: We don't.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: We we so many times come in with our own agenda and with our list of things that we want to see happen.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't always take time to really listen and learn how we can serve other people and and set aside our agenda for a moment and just enter into their world and really be of service to them and the and the greater world in the process.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Elaine, this has been an absolute blast.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Before we wrap this up, I want to take a second to just acknowledge you as journalists, as a podcaster who's pursuing excellence.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned a lot from you and from your approach and from some of the stuff that you've sent me.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just been phenomenal.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful for all the value that you add to the world through that, but also through just being an awesome human being.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think that is we need more people like Elaine Grant in the world, people who listen and are empathetic and who just are adding so much value personally and professionally.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, Kent.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel exactly the same way about you.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks so much.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take a moment to let you know about our daily writer membership community.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 39:32
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• 39:39
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• 39:47
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• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.