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Rainey Street Ripper Strikes Again? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, has the so called Rainy
0:08
Speaker 1: Street Ripper struck again. Fears renewed that a Texas serial
0:15
Speaker 1: killer stalks the city of Austin as two more bodies
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Speaker 1: are found. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, thank
0:26
Speaker 1: you for being with us. In the last days, two
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Speaker 1: more bodies found in Austin's Lady Bird Lake. In total,
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Speaker 1: twelve bodies have been found there since twenty twenty two.
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Speaker 1: Police still insisting there is no serial killer, but hey,
0:46
Speaker 1: mounting body counts suggest otherwise. Fresh fears a Texas serial
0:53
Speaker 1: killer is on the loose and they've been reignited after
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Speaker 1: the discovery of two more bodies and the very same lake.
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Speaker 1: The as of yet unidentified bodies were pulled from Ladybird
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Speaker 1: Lake within days.
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Speaker 2: Of each other.
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Speaker 1: This means there has been a whopping twelve bodies in
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Speaker 1: total recovered from that body of water since twenty twenty two. Now,
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Speaker 1: while police continue to insist there is no killer on
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Speaker 1: the loose, concerns of a possible so called Rainy Street
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Speaker 1: ripper continue as the body count rises.
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Speaker 2: Now.
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Speaker 1: Cops insists they have ruled out foul play in some
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Speaker 1: of the cases, but several of the deaths remain unsolved.
1:44
Speaker 1: How did the whole thing start? Listen to Austin police
1:49
Speaker 1: officers speaking out.
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Speaker 3: Our initial information doesn't show anything suspicious, but we don't
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Speaker 3: make that final determination until the medical examiner has been
1:57
Speaker 3: able to conduct their review as well.
2:00
Speaker 4: The body's been pulled out of the water off Sir,
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Speaker 4: can you understand the public's concern, worries and the heighten
2:07
Speaker 4: of alert.
2:08
Speaker 2: Sure?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know. One thing to keep in mind is
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Speaker 3: that Austin has thousands of acres of green space and waterways.
2:15
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very nature focused large metropolitan area.
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Speaker 3: So you know, we would just encourage people to always
2:23
Speaker 3: be aware of your surroundings, you know, and if you
2:25
Speaker 3: can go with friends, keep yourself safe, right so that
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Speaker 3: way we don't have unfortunate incidents that that can occur.
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Speaker 1: What unfortunate incidents, many people call it murder. Now, I've
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Speaker 1: been researching this and there are many bodies that have
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Speaker 1: just been recently pulled out of Lady Bird Lake, But
2:46
Speaker 1: all the way back to two thousand and eight, there
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Speaker 1: have been suspicious deaths, bodies floating up in Ladybird Lake
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Speaker 1: that have been deemed accident or suicide, specifically in two
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Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Hamad Rid Ahmad a dad, a husband,
3:06
Speaker 1: great job, second job. He's found dead in Ladybird Lake.
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Speaker 1: His hands and feet are bound and he has tape
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Speaker 1: over his mouth and nose. Witnesses saw it when he
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Speaker 1: was pulled out of the water. Multiple witnesses saw that
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Speaker 1: he was bound and duct taped. But it was ruled
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Speaker 1: a suicide. How did he bind his feet and hands,
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Speaker 1: get duct tape on his mouth and nose, and what
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Speaker 1: hobble into the water and flee himself in That's statistically impossible.
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Speaker 1: If you look at method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
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Speaker 1: that assessment is very wrong.
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Speaker 2: But let's fast forward to now.
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Speaker 1: Cops in Austin still insisting it's all just a coincidence.
4:06
Speaker 1: Agree or disagree. Another body just found. Take a listen
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Speaker 1: to Rachel Benia crime online.
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Speaker 5: Another body has been found in Ladybird Lake in Austin.
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Speaker 5: At one thirty one pm, Austin Police respond to a
4:19
Speaker 5: check welfare urgent call after a nine to one to
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Speaker 5: one caller report seeing a body about twenty feet off shore.
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Speaker 5: Police arrive at one thirty three pm, minutes after the
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Speaker 5: call is made and find a body of an unknown
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Speaker 5: person who's pronounced dead. So the body is found in
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Speaker 5: the same site where other deceased individuals have been recovered
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Speaker 5: in recent months.
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Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand what's happening. First of all, let's
4:41
Speaker 1: go out to a special guest joining us, a Brianna Hollis,
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Speaker 1: crime reporter k XA and news Brianna, thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us. First of all, tell me about Lady
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Speaker 1: Bird Like I understand, it's a man made lake to
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Speaker 1: what hold water?
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Speaker 2: For a reservoir? What is it? Crank it for?
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Speaker 6: You know, the average person who hasn't been to Austin.
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Speaker 6: It's referred to as the river. It's I believe, about
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Speaker 6: four hundred and seventy acres of the service surface area,
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Speaker 6: and it flows under the two major highways in town,
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Speaker 6: goes all through downtown, is lined by a lot of
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Speaker 6: green space, is closed to bars, right by a popular
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Speaker 6: walking and hiking trail.
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Speaker 1: So let me understand Lady Bird Lake actually has a
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Speaker 1: ban on swimming in it, doesn't.
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Speaker 6: It for most parts of it?
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Speaker 1: Correct, because so many dead bodies have been faced out.
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Speaker 6: There's other reasons for that as well, just kind of
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Speaker 6: I believe general safety and bacteria in the water kind of.
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Speaker 7: Issues as well.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I understood that swimming was banned a few years
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Speaker 1: after riat Hamad was found floating with his hands and
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Speaker 1: feet bound and duct tape. After a few more bodies
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Speaker 1: floated up and officers continued fishing them out, swimming was
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Speaker 1: in fact banned at Lady Bird Lake.
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Speaker 2: But let's move forward to what we know now.
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Speaker 1: Also near Ladybird Lake is a popular area that includes
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Speaker 1: food trucks, food trucks, and it's a long rainy street.
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Speaker 2: Listen.
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Speaker 8: Rainy Street in downtown Austin is one point eight miles
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Speaker 8: from Ladybird Lake. It's a rackus, bar, and food truck
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Speaker 8: area where many of the victims were seen before their deaths.
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Speaker 8: It's also an area with a long standing reputation for crime.
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Speaker 8: One theory is that people are in danger of having
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Speaker 8: their drink spiked so they can be robbed or worse.
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Speaker 8: Over the last two years, the Austin Police Department has
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Speaker 8: been investigating crimes where men are being potentially drugged while
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Speaker 8: out for the evening. KXAN reports in each case, a
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Speaker 8: man meets a woman at one of the downtown establishments,
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Speaker 8: and during the course of the evening, the victim is
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Speaker 8: drugged and the suspect takes off with their credit cards
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Speaker 8: and cell phone. Investigators say the cell phones and credit
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Speaker 8: cards have been used to commit more than seventy five
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Speaker 8: thousand dollars in fraudulent purchases and transactions. The suspect uses
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Speaker 8: the credit cards for physical purchases at various businesses and
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Speaker 8: the cell phone for banking apps for fraudulent purchases and
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Speaker 8: other transactions.
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Speaker 1: This would not be the first time that late night
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Speaker 1: food trucks have been linked to homicide. Brian Coburger specifically
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Speaker 1: as to whom I am referring listen to.
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Speaker 8: A four murdered University of Idaho students caught on video
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Speaker 8: less than two hours before they were stabbed to death.
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Speaker 8: Madison Mogan and ky Leagan Soolvis ordered a ten dollars
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Speaker 8: portion of carbonara from the Grub Truckers, a food truck
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Speaker 8: at one for three am. During their ten minute wait,
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Speaker 8: they took photos of each other and chatted with other customers.
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Speaker 8: They arrived at the truck with an unidentified young man,
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Speaker 8: but didn't leave with him. The video was filmed by
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Speaker 8: the food truck operators as part of a livestream joining
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Speaker 8: me an all.
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Speaker 2: Star panel to makes sense of what we know right now.
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Speaker 2: But I want to go.
8:14
Speaker 1: To Dennis Frank's, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of
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Speaker 1: Investigative and Security Global Solutions.
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Speaker 2: Dennis, thank you for being with us, Good morning.
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Speaker 9: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: The food truck and bar and restaurant area along Rainy
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Speaker 1: Street not far from Ladybird Lake, and I believe in
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Speaker 1: criminal law there is no coincidence. And I base that
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Speaker 1: on not only ten years of prosecuting nothing but felonies,
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Speaker 1: of course, including homicide.
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Speaker 2: Serial murders, spree murders.
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Speaker 1: But in all the cases that I've covered, when you
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Speaker 1: keep having dead bodies float up in the same lake,
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Speaker 1: you have to at least consider a serial killer.
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Speaker 9: I would agree. It's you know, you count the number
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Speaker 9: of bodies that have been found in this area over
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Speaker 9: the last several years, and this is an area where
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Speaker 9: people don't spend their motorized boats are not allowed. You know,
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Speaker 9: there are a few drownings every year on Lake Austin
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Speaker 9: and Lake Travis, but these are usually for boating situations
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Speaker 9: and swimming situations. So this number of bodies in one
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Speaker 9: location to me is not a coincidence either. And there
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Speaker 9: are probably I think I've counted, maybe there are fifteen
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Speaker 9: bars on Rainey Street and they're all within distance walking
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Speaker 9: distance of the lake.
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Speaker 1: Joining me In addition to Brianna Hollis from k x
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Speaker 1: A N and Dennis Frank's for me FBI, another special
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Speaker 1: guest is Reagan Apodiio, mother to one of the Ladybird
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Speaker 1: Lake victims. I am referring to John Christopher Hayes Clark.
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Speaker 1: He was found dead April fifteen, twenty twenty three. His
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Speaker 1: COEOD cause of death even now is undetermined.
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Speaker 2: Reagan, thank you for being with us, Thank you for
10:17
Speaker 2: having me.
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Speaker 1: Reagan, what do you make of police insisting that all
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Speaker 1: of these deaths are either accident or suicide.
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Speaker 4: I don't believe anything the Austin Police Department says. I
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Speaker 4: haven't since I've known, since I first got the call
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Speaker 4: about Chris. It's been crazy dealing with them, and I
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Speaker 4: haven't had too much clarification on anything of his death,
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Speaker 4: So that makes me not believe them.
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Speaker 1: When you say it's been crazy dealing with them, what
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Speaker 1: do you mean by that.
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Speaker 4: Little to no contact with them? I have to keep
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Speaker 4: basically begging to talk to the detective at the time
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Speaker 4: when all this happened. I literally only talked to him
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Speaker 4: two times, met him one time, and the one time
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Speaker 4: I met him is when they were about to close
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Speaker 4: the case.
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Speaker 2: Is the case actually closed? Yes? And what was their
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Speaker 2: decision as to cause of death?
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Speaker 4: They deemed it as undetermined and they closed the case
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Speaker 4: because they said they had no information on Chris.
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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: Two more bodies pulled from Ladybird Lake in the Austin area.
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Speaker 1: Citizens fear a serial killer is loose walking amongst them.
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Speaker 1: This is the twelfth body that we know of that
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Speaker 1: has been pulled from the lake. Are there others in
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Speaker 1: the lake that have not been discovered? The first body
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Speaker 1: found under South First Street Bridge April nine, Well, that
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Speaker 1: was attributed to a cardiac arrest style event. But if
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Speaker 1: that's true, why are police continuing to probe the death.
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Speaker 1: Just five short days later, a fisherman calls in the
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Speaker 1: report of another corpse that death they say is not
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Speaker 1: being investigated as a homicide. Cobbs insists foul play was
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Speaker 1: not the cause of the deaths connected to the reservoir,
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Speaker 1: stating they're most likely accidental due to the closeness of
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Speaker 1: the reservoir to very popular night spots. But wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: twelve people get drunk and fall.
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Speaker 2: In the lake.
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Speaker 1: Really, I've known a lot of drunk people and none
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Speaker 1: of them have fallen into a lake.
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Speaker 2: What more do we know?
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Speaker 1: Reagan Opodisio mother to one of the Ladybird Lake victim's
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Speaker 1: young son who is now twelve, and he wants to
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Speaker 1: know what happened to dad? And can I tell you?
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Speaker 1: As each year passes is going to nag him and
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Speaker 1: haunt him the rest of his life if we don't
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Speaker 1: get answers, now is the time to get those answers
13:21
Speaker 1: where you get hold on just one moment. Also joining
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Speaker 1: us is renowned medical examiner chief medical Examiner in Texas
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Speaker 1: of Terran County. That's Fort Worth Lecturer, University Texas Austin
13:33
Speaker 1: and at TCU, Texas Christian University Medical School doctor Kendall Crown's.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, thank you for being with us. To me,
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Speaker 1: when a case is labeled undetermined CEOD cause of death
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Speaker 1: and the family has no answers, that's not a case
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Speaker 1: that I would consider to be closed.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, you're correct on that, man. See any case that's
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Speaker 7: left undetermined means that the medical examiner wasn't able to
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Speaker 7: figure out an exact cause of death, and so because
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Speaker 7: of that, they've left it undetermined in case any investigative
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Speaker 7: information comes up on a later date, or anything else
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Speaker 7: may come arise that may change the outcome. So when
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Speaker 7: you get an undetermined, especially in a case found in
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Speaker 7: a lake like that, it means that they didn't find
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Speaker 7: anything specific because drowning finding themselves are non specific, and
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Speaker 7: so they didn't find anything that they felt was valid
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Speaker 7: enough to cause it to give a good valid cause death.
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Speaker 1: Well, they're saying that about so many of the cases.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns, I want to circle back to you
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Speaker 1: on obtaining cause of death when a body has been
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Speaker 1: in the water submerged for a period of time. But
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Speaker 1: I want to go back to Reagan Updicio, mother to
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Speaker 1: victim Christopher Clark's son, and now I believe as your
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Speaker 1: son turned.
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Speaker 2: Thirteen yet it'll be thirteen next month.
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Speaker 1: Question to you regarding the day death of Chris Clark.
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Speaker 1: You guys were together for over ten years. I understand
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Speaker 1: you last saw him on Easter Sunday, it's correct, and
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Speaker 1: when he walked out after visiting with you and your son,
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Speaker 1: you had no idea you would never see him again.
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Speaker 1: When did you learn that Christopher had been killed?
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Speaker 4: I learned Sunday after they let his mother know.
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Speaker 2: What were you told?
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Speaker 4: His best friend called me and he was very distraught
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Speaker 4: and let me know that they had found Chris in
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Speaker 4: the lake. And I didn't believe it, and I went
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Speaker 4: to his mom's house and she told me that the
15:42
Speaker 4: police had came and let them know that they had
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Speaker 4: identified him in the lake and that you know, he
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Speaker 4: was deceased, and I kind of lost it from there.
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Speaker 1: Do you know, Reagan, whether he had drugs or alcohol.
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Speaker 2: In his body?
15:59
Speaker 10: Yes?
15:59
Speaker 1: I do, Diddy, Yes, you know that leads me back
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Speaker 1: Brianna joining me, Brianna.
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Speaker 2: Hollis kx A N to.
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Speaker 1: The scheme that apparently some women have drugging and robbing
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Speaker 1: male victims and then they are found in and around
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Speaker 1: Ladybird Lake. Are you familiar with that scheme? That investigation
16:25
Speaker 1: by Austin p D.
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Speaker 6: In my experience, when it has come to cases similar
16:31
Speaker 6: to what you have brought up in the past two
16:33
Speaker 6: years that I personally have looked into, they have either
16:37
Speaker 6: been not reported to police or have been unsubstantiated, or
16:42
Speaker 6: the police department has suspended the cases on the onus
16:46
Speaker 6: of the complaint end.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you
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Speaker 1: saying that you know of other cases where it's alleged
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Speaker 1: victims were drugged and then robbed but they were never prosecuted.
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Speaker 1: Whether it's because it couldn't be substantiated or the victim
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Speaker 1: didn't want to testify, is that what you're saying I'm.
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Speaker 6: Saying, Or because the alleged victims didn't report it to
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Speaker 6: police at all and it was just social media chatter or.
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Speaker 2: Okay, people reaching out my question?
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Speaker 1: Do you know of cases, whether they've been prosecuted or not,
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Speaker 1: where victims claimed they were drugged and robbed in the area?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, let me go.
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Speaker 1: To doctor Kendall Crowns again, chief medical examiner there in
17:36
Speaker 1: Fort Worth. Doctor Crowns, I find this baffling and confusing
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Speaker 1: that so many bodies have been pulled out of Ladybird Lake,
17:47
Speaker 1: but police are continuing to say.
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Speaker 2: It's all just a coincidence.
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Speaker 1: Could you explain to me whether in life of toxicology
17:56
Speaker 1: reports that it could be determined if these victims had
18:00
Speaker 1: been drugged anyway.
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Speaker 7: So the taxcology of reports will tell you what drugs
18:04
Speaker 7: are in the system, and there are certain drugs that
18:07
Speaker 7: are used to try and coerce or to drug an
18:11
Speaker 7: individual like row him Be and I think is one
18:13
Speaker 7: of the date break drugs. But if you're seeing other
18:17
Speaker 7: types of drugs, it may or may not have been
18:20
Speaker 7: used coercely. So it's difficult to say this on toxicology.
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Speaker 7: The problem is, as you pointed out, you have many
18:28
Speaker 7: bodies coming from the same area in a short period
18:31
Speaker 7: of time, so you have to kind of wonder if
18:33
Speaker 7: they're clustering like that, what's going on and what's causing it.
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Speaker 7: It's more than just as simple, oh they all happen
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Speaker 7: to go to the same area and die. I do
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Speaker 7: feel that that's something the Medical Examiner's office in Travis
18:46
Speaker 7: and the police in Austin should be really looking at.
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Speaker 7: Why are all these same people ending up dead in
18:52
Speaker 7: the same area. There's got to be a connection.
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Speaker 6: I'm sorry, can I say something up in There's a
18:58
Speaker 6: lot of talk that all of these bodies have been
19:00
Speaker 6: found near Rainy Street, and that isn't true. There have
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Speaker 6: only been I'm looking at our map right now, there
19:05
Speaker 6: have only been two found near Rainy Street. Where the
19:08
Speaker 6: victim was reported last seen on Rainy Street. Since twenty
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Speaker 6: twenty two, the rest have been in all different parts
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Speaker 6: of Ladybird Lake, which again, if you're looking at it
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Speaker 6: on a map, that looks more like a river. So
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Speaker 6: I think it's really important to note that all of
19:21
Speaker 6: these bodies aren't showing up near Rainey Street.
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Speaker 2: That's good to know, yeah, but it's not.
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Speaker 7: Ladyborg Lake have a current associated with it, so those
19:29
Speaker 7: bodies could be being dropped to the centralized location and
19:32
Speaker 7: then washing down the rivers. So they don't look at.
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Speaker 6: There that has been found upstream from Rainey Street.
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Speaker 2: Upstream O is that Dodger Kendall crown speaking.
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Speaker 1: Yes, Sorry, okay, doctor Kendall Crowns, you took the words
19:47
Speaker 1: straight out of my mouth. Because the current leading into
19:52
Speaker 1: and out of and in Ladybird Lake is considerable and
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Speaker 1: your analysis is correct.
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Speaker 7: Well, that's actually one of the reasons why they don't
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Speaker 7: want people swimming in Ladybird Lake is because the current
20:05
Speaker 7: is very dangerous and people that aren't very good at
20:08
Speaker 7: swimming get caught in that current.
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Speaker 1: Drown is a serial killer stalking the Austin area, particularly
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Speaker 1: a popular nightlife area called Rainy Street, not far from
20:21
Speaker 1: downtown Austin. It was the death of Clifton Axtell, forty six.
20:26
Speaker 1: He was found March twenty twenty three. The cause of
20:29
Speaker 1: death COEOD ruled undetermined. Other bodies, according to police, are
20:36
Speaker 1: not being investigated as homicides. So I'm supposed to believe
20:42
Speaker 1: that these guys, all male, were just drunk and fell
20:46
Speaker 1: in the water. Police say multiple victims were basically drunk
20:54
Speaker 1: or high and fell into the water and just died.
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Speaker 1: That includes Ricky Parks, his body was found on July
21:00
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. He drowned, Christopher guitarist Kyle Thornton Christopher
21:05
Speaker 1: Hayes Clark. They were also deemed not suspicious. Two of
21:12
Speaker 1: the victims, Jason John and Jonathan Honey, were deemed to
21:15
Speaker 1: a drowned accidentally. Both men last seen on Rainy Street.
21:23
Speaker 1: One man, Hussu Moreno, shot while driving his vehicle, plunging
21:29
Speaker 1: into the reservoir. You think that's a heart attack too.
21:32
Speaker 1: Local bartenders stay they have a hard time excepting there
21:36
Speaker 1: is not something much more sinister going on. I mean,
21:42
Speaker 1: what's the likelihood that all twelve that we know of,
21:45
Speaker 1: I've got drunk end quote fell in the water. Let
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Speaker 1: me go to Alan Bennett, former felony prosecutor now partner
21:53
Speaker 1: at Gunter Bennett and Anthus at GBA Firm dot com. Alan,
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Speaker 1: I mean here, a former felony prosecutor like myself. If
22:02
Speaker 1: you're prosecuting this case or investigating it, do you really
22:05
Speaker 1: care if the victim is pushed into the water or
22:09
Speaker 1: dumped upstream in the lake or downstream?
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Speaker 2: Do you care?
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Speaker 1: It's a series of young men of men dead in
22:21
Speaker 1: and around Lady Bird Lake. So I appreciate the distinction,
22:27
Speaker 1: and it sounds like a wonderful distinction a veteran defense.
22:31
Speaker 2: Attorney might make at trial.
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Speaker 1: But I have handled serial murder cases. I have argued
22:39
Speaker 1: them to the Georgia Supreme Court. One of the first ones.
22:43
Speaker 1: You'll like this for its analogy to the current case,
22:46
Speaker 1: Alan Bennett. Was a string of young black males that
22:51
Speaker 1: were killed in Atlanta. Everyone within a certain as age range,
22:56
Speaker 1: everyone African American, everyone killed with I believe it was
23:01
Speaker 1: a thirty six caliber in the head in the middle
23:04
Speaker 1: of a sex act, or so police thought. But yet
23:08
Speaker 1: no one would say serial killer. Well, it was a
23:11
Speaker 1: serial killer who would lure these young guys out of
23:18
Speaker 1: a bar go out to have sex and kill them.
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Speaker 2: Why, I don't know. Did he hate himself, did he
23:25
Speaker 2: hate them? I don't know, and I don't care why.
23:28
Speaker 1: But he was a serial killer, and for the longest
23:31
Speaker 1: time nobody would say serial killer.
23:35
Speaker 2: And I don't know why.
23:36
Speaker 1: But when you have this many bodies, whether they're upstraight
23:39
Speaker 1: in the lake or downstream, they all have to be
23:42
Speaker 1: examined very closely.
23:44
Speaker 10: Alan, yes, ma'am, I would agree. I think o psychology
23:48
Speaker 10: reports need to be done on all of those folks.
23:51
Speaker 10: And I can't speak to this investigation directly in I
23:54
Speaker 10: can't speak rap but having worked with APD for the
23:58
Speaker 10: last thirty seven years now, both as a prospertor in
24:00
Speaker 10: tench Jarning, one thing I see across the board, and
24:05
Speaker 10: I'm sure you've seen us as well, answer across the
24:07
Speaker 10: board in law enforcement, any detective, investigator, a forensic analyst, officer,
24:13
Speaker 10: everyone across the board. Good detective work dictates that you
24:17
Speaker 10: work the facts, not the theory, and I've heard that
24:21
Speaker 10: countless times. I suspect APD may take the position that
24:25
Speaker 10: this isn't necessarily a coincidence. There is a common thread
24:28
Speaker 10: to all these We have a bunch of young people
24:30
Speaker 10: and a very very well working entertainment district here in Austin,
24:36
Speaker 10: a bunch of bunch of alcohol. They're very close to
24:39
Speaker 10: a very dangerous body of water with a strong current.
24:42
Speaker 10: They would say that it's incidentally there are a number
24:45
Speaker 10: in such a short period of time. And I'll be
24:47
Speaker 10: the first to admit the number of bodies found in
24:49
Speaker 10: such a short period of time. There's the old adage
24:52
Speaker 10: where there is smoke, there is fire. That's a lot
24:54
Speaker 10: a lot of smoke. But I think former speciality of
24:57
Speaker 10: France will hopefully agree with me. You have to work
25:00
Speaker 10: the facts and not the theory. The facts and the
25:04
Speaker 10: clues will help you develop the theory. The theory doesn't
25:07
Speaker 10: help you develop facts. And it may very well be.
25:09
Speaker 10: As Miss Hollis mentioned no long ago, APD they close
25:13
Speaker 10: cases that they will also administratively close the case, which
25:17
Speaker 10: basically means we're just not doing anything right now. We
25:20
Speaker 10: don't have any lease to follow, we don't have any
25:22
Speaker 10: anywhere this is taking us. They're not going to go more.
25:25
Speaker 10: If additional evidence comes up, as doctor Brown to mention, absolutely,
25:29
Speaker 10: they'll reopen that case if they can find that common
25:32
Speaker 10: thread and it may as well be the currently APD
25:35
Speaker 10: is not finding the common thread that our intuition tells
25:40
Speaker 10: us must be there, should be there, and it must
25:43
Speaker 10: be something more than simply young folks bunch of alcohol close
25:48
Speaker 10: to a bottle of water.
25:49
Speaker 1: Now I know why you want so many cases, Alan Bennett.
25:52
Speaker 1: I agree with everything that you just said, But for
25:55
Speaker 1: Austin ployees to just come out and announce there isn't
25:57
Speaker 1: a serial killer at this juncture, I think is highly,
26:01
Speaker 1: highly premature and a risk to the public because we
26:04
Speaker 1: really don't know.
26:05
Speaker 2: And you're right, you've got to follow the.
26:07
Speaker 1: Facts before you develop a theory. Another thing you said
26:11
Speaker 1: that I think should be very comforting to Miss Reagan Apodicio,
26:16
Speaker 1: the mother to victim Christopher Clark's twelve year old son,
26:20
Speaker 1: is that the cases are not closed in the TV sense,
26:25
Speaker 1: in the street and vernacular sense of the word.
26:27
Speaker 2: They are closed, as in, we've had a dead.
26:30
Speaker 1: End, we're not giving up. Well, you don't have anywhere
26:34
Speaker 1: to go right now. And I got to tell you something, Reagan.
26:38
Speaker 1: When I became a felony prosecutor, I inherited a courtroom,
26:43
Speaker 1: a very very busy felony courtroom in inner city Atlanta,
26:46
Speaker 1: and I inherited about one hundred and fifty pending cases
26:51
Speaker 1: while getting about one hundred new cases every week or so.
26:55
Speaker 1: So the case isn't gone, it's not done. It's closed
27:00
Speaker 1: for now until new evidence emerges. And that's why we
27:05
Speaker 1: are talking about this case today. I want to go
27:08
Speaker 1: to doctor Dana Anderson, forensics psychologist, host of Killer Psychologist podcast,
27:15
Speaker 1: and you can find doctor Dana at Kill Our Psychologist.
27:19
Speaker 1: Doctor Dana, thank you for being with us. Why do
27:23
Speaker 1: you believe police don't want to even entertain discussion of
27:28
Speaker 1: a serial killer in Austin.
27:29
Speaker 11: Well, one reason is you don't want to brighten the public.
27:33
Speaker 11: You want to create that sense of safety. And maybe
27:38
Speaker 11: they do have more information and they don't want the
27:41
Speaker 11: public to know about it. They don't want to create
27:43
Speaker 11: that panic and fear. Although too late, that's actually already happening.
27:48
Speaker 11: If you scour the internet, and even this morning, I
27:51
Speaker 11: went online and looked at the bars on Rainy Street,
27:57
Speaker 11: the Sidebar, and there's hundreds of reviews saying don't go
28:00
Speaker 11: out to these places, you're going to get drugged. And
28:04
Speaker 11: there's lots of information on the internet about about these
28:09
Speaker 11: individuals that have gone missing, and a lot of speculation
28:13
Speaker 11: and theories. So there is panic and people want answers,
28:18
Speaker 11: and it is concerning to hear that cases.
28:20
Speaker 12: Are being closed to prematurely agree, agree and again based
28:26
Speaker 12: on what Alan Bennett was just explaining, the cases may
28:29
Speaker 12: not be closed in the layperson understanding, they're closed, as.
28:33
Speaker 1: In, we don't have any updates right now, we're waiting
28:38
Speaker 1: for more evidence to be uncovered.
28:41
Speaker 2: It would not be the first.
28:42
Speaker 1: Time by any stretch that a serial killer stalked an area,
28:47
Speaker 1: while police steadfastly deny any such apparition as a serial killer.
28:55
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut sixteen A.
28:57
Speaker 1: This is Dave Mack from Crime Online discussing a recent
29:01
Speaker 1: spate of murders. For the longest time, police refused to
29:06
Speaker 1: acknowledge a serial killer alert to the area.
29:08
Speaker 13: Listen with Eric Opena's description of the man, the make
29:11
Speaker 13: and model of the truck. Authorities were able to identify
29:14
Speaker 13: Border Patrol Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As
29:18
Speaker 13: authorities mobilized to look for One David Ortiz, they couldn't
29:21
Speaker 13: find him. After Paine's escape from Martes, officers only knew
29:24
Speaker 13: of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they
29:27
Speaker 13: were chasing after him, they heard about a third body
29:30
Speaker 13: that had been found, later identified as thirty five year
29:33
Speaker 13: old Gizelda Elisa Hernandez can too. Believing Ortiz will return
29:37
Speaker 13: to the home he shares with his wife and children,
29:39
Speaker 13: authorities head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
29:42
Speaker 1: That's right, a Border Patrol agent was in fact a
29:44
Speaker 1: serial killer, and if police had acknowledged that these women
29:49
Speaker 1: were dropping like flies at the hands of serial killer,
29:53
Speaker 1: that last victim may very well have been saved. And
29:56
Speaker 1: that's certainly not the only one. The same thing happened
30:01
Speaker 1: in Oregon.
30:03
Speaker 13: Listen weeks after saying the deaths of several women were
30:06
Speaker 13: not linked to one murderer. Investigators and prosecutors say they're
30:10
Speaker 13: working together on the evidence that now links one person,
30:12
Speaker 13: jesse Lee Calhoun, to at least four of the murdered women.
30:16
Speaker 13: Kristin Smith reported missing December twenty second, twenty twenty two,
30:19
Speaker 13: found dead eight weeks later in Portland. Twenty two year
30:22
Speaker 13: old Ashley Real reported missing in Portland April second, twenty
30:25
Speaker 13: twenty three, found dead five weeks later in Clackhamus County,
30:29
Speaker 13: Charity Perry twenty four, found dead in Eastmolknomah County. Bridget
30:32
Speaker 13: Leanne Ramsey Webster thirty one, found dead in Paul County
30:35
Speaker 13: April thirtieth, twenty twenty three. Jesse Lee Calhoun has not
30:39
Speaker 13: been charged yet, but he remains a person of interest.
30:49
Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace.
30:54
Speaker 1: Fears renewed in the Austin area that a serial killer
30:59
Speaker 1: is stalking males in the Rainy Street nightlife area. Why
31:05
Speaker 1: twelve people, twelve males in updead under similar circumstances and
31:10
Speaker 1: they're all found in Lady Bird Lake. Let me go
31:14
Speaker 1: back to you, doctor Kendall, Crown's chief medical examiner Terren County.
31:18
Speaker 1: Let's talk about potential drugging of the victims. What are
31:25
Speaker 1: your thoughts on any way to link some of these
31:28
Speaker 1: victims together. For instance, a date rape drug could be
31:32
Speaker 1: used like I believe it was used in the Natalie
31:34
Speaker 1: Holloway case. Or victims could be watched or party. They
31:39
Speaker 1: could be partying with the victim and when they pull
31:41
Speaker 1: out their own drugs, that's a perfect chance to rob
31:45
Speaker 1: them or kill them. So I'm trying to figure out
31:49
Speaker 1: all the various mos modus operandi method of operation a
31:52
Speaker 1: killer could utilize in this scenario. So where would a
31:58
Speaker 1: medical examiner fit into this puzzle to help link victims potentially.
32:03
Speaker 7: So what you can do is when you have a
32:05
Speaker 7: string of victims all from the same area, or you
32:09
Speaker 7: start looking for similarities, you know, as they have a
32:12
Speaker 7: similar pattern of bruising, where they similarly tied up, things
32:17
Speaker 7: of that nature. If you're worried about a drug someone
32:20
Speaker 7: drugging them and then you know, jumping them, you look
32:23
Speaker 7: for similar if they have similar toxlogic findings. Because the
32:27
Speaker 7: serial killer, if you will, isn't going to be switching
32:30
Speaker 7: up drugs between victims. They're going to go with what
32:32
Speaker 7: works and then continue to use it. So if the
32:35
Speaker 7: medical examler has noticed you have a cluster of bodies
32:38
Speaker 7: from the same area and they all have the same
32:40
Speaker 7: drugs on board, then you have a very obvious issue.
32:45
Speaker 1: Now I've been looking at a lot of the victims
32:47
Speaker 1: and Brianna Hollis.
32:49
Speaker 2: May be able to help me out here.
32:50
Speaker 1: K x A N News again, thank you for being
32:53
Speaker 1: with us. So many of the victims and of course
32:57
Speaker 1: to my knowledge they're dating back to two thousand and eight,
33:00
Speaker 1: but some of them had facial bruising.
33:03
Speaker 2: Some of them had broken bones.
33:06
Speaker 1: I don't really understand how that can fit into an
33:12
Speaker 1: accidental death scenario. But what can you tell me about
33:16
Speaker 1: the most recent victims, Rihanna.
33:19
Speaker 6: So obviously, we had a case this week where a
33:23
Speaker 6: body was pulled from Ladybird Lake. This was near City Hall,
33:27
Speaker 6: which is northwest of Rainey Street, upstream how far from
33:31
Speaker 6: Rainney Street, probably about a mile and a half or
33:34
Speaker 6: so two miles and this was identified as a female.
33:39
Speaker 6: That's all the information we have, but that is what
33:43
Speaker 6: we know at the moment of this case. Otherwise, like
33:47
Speaker 6: I said, most of my reporting has been on the
33:50
Speaker 6: cases dating back to July of twenty twenty two. I'm
33:56
Speaker 6: looking at our map and our chart here right now,
34:01
Speaker 6: all kind of what you guys have been talking about.
34:03
Speaker 6: Accidental drowning, cause of death undetermined. There's two cases I
34:07
Speaker 6: do want to bring up, and before I get into that,
34:10
Speaker 6: I do want to mention that, of course, every death
34:14
Speaker 6: is a tragedy, no matter how it happened. So I
34:18
Speaker 6: go into these details with you know, the utmost level
34:21
Speaker 6: of respect and sensitivity for the family members of these victims.
34:25
Speaker 6: Just wanted to put that out there, but two of
34:28
Speaker 6: the cases that sparked a lot of alarm last year
34:30
Speaker 6: were the Jason John case and the Jonathan Honey case.
34:34
Speaker 6: These were two instances, the only two incidents in my
34:38
Speaker 6: reporting since I've gotten here, where the victim was actually
34:42
Speaker 6: last seen on Rainy Street. And in the two cases,
34:46
Speaker 6: the toxicology reports found no drugs but found alcohol, and
34:51
Speaker 6: then in the Jonathan Honey case they found drugs consistent
34:56
Speaker 6: with over the counter I believe allergy medicine.
34:59
Speaker 1: Okay, so to victims on Rainy Street did not have
35:03
Speaker 1: anything such as GHB, gamma hydroxy butty rate or another
35:11
Speaker 1: potential sedative. But to you, doctor Kendall Crowns, in this scenario,
35:17
Speaker 1: if people are getting guys or women to party, getting
35:22
Speaker 1: them drunk, getting them to use drugs, and killing them,
35:26
Speaker 1: I don't know that drugs would be in their system.
35:29
Speaker 7: Well, I they're getting them drunk or any If they
35:32
Speaker 7: aren't getting them drunk, then yes, or giving them drugs,
35:37
Speaker 7: of course it wouldn't be drugs in their system. But
35:39
Speaker 7: if they're giving them anything, it should show up on
35:41
Speaker 7: the toxicology. But of course you could lure them away
35:45
Speaker 7: into those areas and then strangle theomen, push them into
35:48
Speaker 7: the river, or whatever you're doing to them.
35:50
Speaker 10: Who knows at this form?
35:51
Speaker 13: You know?
35:52
Speaker 1: Another issue, And let me go to Dennis Franks on this,
35:54
Speaker 1: former FBI special agent now with Investigative and Security Global Solutions. Dennis,
36:02
Speaker 1: so many people assume that theft would be the motive
36:09
Speaker 1: with a serial killer. That's not necessarily the motive. The
36:13
Speaker 1: joy of killing is very often the motive.
36:17
Speaker 9: I agree, and no, I'm not a behavioral science expert,
36:21
Speaker 9: but yet you know these I do not see theft
36:25
Speaker 9: as being a situation where somebody gets robbed and then
36:29
Speaker 9: they kill them and throw them in the lake. I
36:32
Speaker 9: would go on to say that I assuming that the
36:36
Speaker 9: Austin Police Department has a behavioral science unit or experts
36:41
Speaker 9: trained in that they should be looking at this, looking
36:44
Speaker 9: at any patterns anything at all, coordinating with the FBIS
36:47
Speaker 9: and behavioral science unit, looking at statistics nationwide, and looking
36:51
Speaker 9: for any clues at all that might whether or not
36:55
Speaker 9: they're going to admit that this might be a serial killer.
36:57
Speaker 9: They should be doing this, and I would alan.
37:00
Speaker 2: Been joining us.
37:01
Speaker 1: Former felony prosecutor, joining us out of Austin. You've handled
37:05
Speaker 1: so many homicide cases, but in serial killer cases. I
37:09
Speaker 1: mean John Wayne Gacy. He didn't steal from his victims.
37:13
Speaker 1: He molested them, then he killed them and buried him
37:16
Speaker 1: in his crawls base off his basement. Ted Bundy, he
37:20
Speaker 1: didn't rob. While many serial killers do take a mento
37:24
Speaker 1: like jewelry, or they might take a driver's license or
37:28
Speaker 1: a hair rib and or underwear, theft is not the
37:32
Speaker 1: motivator for for instance, Ted Bundy, I could go on
37:36
Speaker 1: and on and on, like Ortiz the Border patrol Ation,
37:40
Speaker 1: he hated prostitutes, so he killed them. The Boston Strangler,
37:43
Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, he didn't rob the victims. He hated
37:47
Speaker 1: them because they were prostitutes. So motivation for serial killers
37:52
Speaker 1: is not by far always theft.
37:55
Speaker 10: I agree Ma Answering. In fact, I'm not sure that
37:58
Speaker 10: I'm aware of any seerial killer in history who was
38:02
Speaker 10: in fact most big back up. And again, how they
38:05
Speaker 10: of special agent crimes could give us a better statistic.
38:08
Speaker 10: But my understanding is that at any given time, the
38:11
Speaker 10: FBI believes there are only about fifty serial killers operating
38:16
Speaker 10: within the United States. Because our lady mentioned a moment
38:19
Speaker 10: ago I fat is the most the most prevalent crime
38:22
Speaker 10: that's the most important crime. Serial killers are not uh.
38:28
Speaker 10: I think I think you're right. All the serial killers
38:30
Speaker 10: you mentioned, they are a special breed of people, and
38:35
Speaker 10: they may collect souvenirs, they may take momentos from the victims,
38:39
Speaker 10: but they're not they're not robbing their victims. In fact,
38:42
Speaker 10: I'm not even sure if there's any evidence that any
38:43
Speaker 10: of the bodies have been pulled from the late were
38:47
Speaker 10: in fact victims of robbery or theft. I'm not sure
38:50
Speaker 10: if any of those bodies were pulled that had their
38:52
Speaker 10: wallet impacted, their money still in their wallet. I'm not
38:56
Speaker 10: sure if there's any association or any connection of theft.
38:59
Speaker 1: Brian Hollis, what about it? Kxa N Have any of
39:02
Speaker 1: these victims been robbed?
39:03
Speaker 6: Not to my knowledge the ones I've covered.
39:06
Speaker 1: There You go, Alan Bennett, what you're saying is really
39:08
Speaker 1: interesting to me because I disagree with the FBI, and
39:12
Speaker 1: I certainly don't want to poke the bear. It's like
39:16
Speaker 1: having a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on
39:19
Speaker 1: and you can't let go. But it'll be a cold
39:21
Speaker 1: day in hgub l that there's only fifty serial killers.
39:24
Speaker 2: In America right now.
39:27
Speaker 1: No, they may only know of fifty serial killers in America,
39:31
Speaker 1: but I guarantee you that is woefully woefully under reported
39:37
Speaker 1: to you joining us Breonna Hollis kxa N. I'm curious
39:42
Speaker 1: as to the physical appearance of the victims. What can
39:47
Speaker 1: you tell me about that? Are they similar in appearance?
39:50
Speaker 6: That's something I don't know directly. The only information that
39:54
Speaker 6: we've gotten from police regarding this was just difficulties when
39:59
Speaker 6: it comes to the autopsy and the investigations because of
40:03
Speaker 6: you know, bodies being in the water with you know,
40:07
Speaker 6: bloating and decomposition and whatnot.
40:10
Speaker 1: Many of them are light complected with dark hair. That's
40:14
Speaker 1: my observation so far. And as you know to Dennis
40:19
Speaker 1: Frank's former FBI now in security, serial killers typically kill
40:26
Speaker 1: within their own race. Also, they have a type a
40:31
Speaker 1: type of victim to which they gravitate. I mean, if
40:35
Speaker 1: you look at Ted Bundy's victims, they all look like thin,
40:39
Speaker 1: white females with dark hair part of down the middle.
40:43
Speaker 1: There are a few variations, but that's what you find
40:46
Speaker 1: very very often.
40:47
Speaker 2: What do you make of that, Dennis Franks, Yeah.
40:49
Speaker 9: I think that's true. I think they're usually a pattern
40:52
Speaker 9: of the victims with serial killers and I've been looking
40:55
Speaker 9: at that in these unfortunate does does seem that there
41:01
Speaker 9: the victims do have that picture of look you know,
41:07
Speaker 9: it doesn't seem for sure, you know, certainly there's not
41:09
Speaker 9: random you know victims or people who have found that
41:14
Speaker 9: of different uh, you know, different looks. And so that's
41:18
Speaker 9: a factor that I think is important in this because
41:22
Speaker 9: you're going to look at any pattern you can, and
41:24
Speaker 9: that's an important pattern, and then you're going to look
41:27
Speaker 9: for other commonalities. And you know, it's it's a mystery
41:35
Speaker 9: that they may not say that it's, you know, a
41:38
Speaker 9: serial killer, but they have to be looking at it.
41:40
Speaker 9: I just can't see.
41:41
Speaker 10: Why they wouldn't.
41:43
Speaker 1: The City of Austin has just announced that more safety
41:46
Speaker 1: measures like lighting and fancying around the lake are going
41:50
Speaker 1: to happen. They're also quote considering part rangers around the
41:56
Speaker 1: water and more surveillance cameras. Okay, wait a minute, why
42:01
Speaker 1: are you still quote considering it? I considered it for
42:04
Speaker 1: about five seconds, and I think you should do it immediately.
42:08
Speaker 1: How many more bodies have to be pulled fished out
42:13
Speaker 1: of Ladybird Lake before safety measures are taken. I look
42:20
Speaker 1: for patterns. There is a pattern, Males within a certain
42:26
Speaker 1: age bracket from a certain location on certain times of
42:31
Speaker 1: the night are going missing and ending up dead. And
42:36
Speaker 1: Ladybird Lake, Austin p D. Can you hear me? Nancy
42:43
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,