Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Classics: SMNTY Ships It

Transcript

SMNTY Classics: SMNTY Ships It · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Smantha falcome stuff. I'll never
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: told you protection I heard you, and welcome to a
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: classic uh one that has been on my mind as
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of late. As you will know if you listened to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: our recent dappy hours. This comes out how about queer wating,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and it's about shipping and how that can look and
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: how the ups and downs, the highs and lows of shipping.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I do have to say it's pretty funny when you
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: start looking at it, because me and my best friend
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: were like, you know, if we were on TV, they
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: probably would ship us just because you start looking at
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: things didn't really like, wait a minute, oh okay, which
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: is a very fun It was a fun exercise and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: we got to go down, don't you?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: And Lauren?
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: There is fan fiction of me. I don't know if
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: anybody ever published the ones with me and Lauren. There
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: was one being bridge it too. Oh I haven't looked,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: and they were super cute. I found them very sweet,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: and it was very funny because they immediately pegged me
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: as the shy one and Lauren and Bridget as the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: more forward one. It was it was interesting because it
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: was like reading a version of yourself that people here
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: see in a digital space, but they don't actually know you,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: so I didn't. I was not weird a doubt about
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: it at all. I thought it was kind of funny,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and I appreciated that they because it was a couple
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: of listeners and they wrote in to me and was like,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: here it is. So I appreciated that they were open
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: enough to share that with me because I did enjoy it,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: which I don't know. Maybe that makes me sound really pompous,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: but I just thought it was cute. But yes, I
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: have gone on a whole journey lately and I've learned
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: a lot, so I thought I would bring back this
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: classic episode, although I think we're also going to have
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: to update this one not with some things that's a
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: problem for future us. In the meantime, please enjoy. Hey,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Staphone Ever
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: told you protection of iHeartRadio, And today we are recording
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: an episode that I'm not sure when it will come out,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: but I'm very excited about it.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: We've been talking about this episode for a minute.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have actually I think over a year at least,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: but it was I really got a catalyst when our
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: friend of the show. Listener Jamie wrote in and suggested, quote,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: what about shipping and problematic ships like the non con
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: forcing a sexual aspect into a friendship and shipping wars
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: with the related internet abuse, which for some of you,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I bet you're like, what does that mean? We're gonna
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: talk about it, We're gonna break it all out. But yeah,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: this is this is a big conversation right now, and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: it's changed so much since I started being Fanish in
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: the fan space, so there's a lot to go over
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: in a lot of history. This might be a two parter.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I don't think it will be, but who knows. We'll see,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: We'll see.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: You always have like I feel like you and I
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: have both are like, it's not gonna be that long,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: and it ends up being either the full amount and
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: then some and especially for those who are like maybe well,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: but then again, we've also had those moments it's like,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: this is gonna be really long, and then it ends
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: up being not.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Not yeah, yes, yes, it's so it's hard to say
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: because I do have a lot of thoughts about this,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm actually going to put my thoughts at the
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: end of this episode slash episodes, but I'm built they'll
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: be throughout. I'm sure. I just have a lot of opinions.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So very brief spoilers for Good Omens season two, very
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: vague h and at the end and I'll give a
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: heads up. But uh, big part of the conversation right now,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: shall I say?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: My TikTok is full of Michael and David like doing
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: their little uh parody shows is the entire thing. And
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I guess because Good Omens too had come out, there's
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: more like ads and I'm like, why I don't even
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: know them? That will help, but they're really funny.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: It also could be that you sent me one.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I did well because I've been getting them in my feet.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I was like, why am I getting so much of
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: this content? And then when I asked, dude, you were like, no,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen because they did the whole Zoom show
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: web series, I believe with the director from Good Omens,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and I was like, have you not seen this? Well,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: you definitely have to because it's right up your rally
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: and I've never seen good Omens either.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I do love good Omens. Oh well, getting into so
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: today we are talking about shipping, but I guess that
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: we should start with a definition for people who might
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: not know what is shipping.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that this is from Urban Dictionary,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: because we do talk about a lot of like fanfic
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: words from Urban Dictionary, don't we. So it is from
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Urban Dictionary. The act of one wanting supporting two individuals
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: involved in a romantic relationship a verb used to describe
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: the action of wishing for two people to enter a relationship,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: whether romantic or occasionally platonic, in books, movies, tv shows,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: or real life. Shipping can often happen involuntarily, and it
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: is the majority of what happens on the website Tumblr,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: really tumbler. There are some very popular ships, some unpopular,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: as well as often lots of controversy between ships from
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the same fando.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I would also say that it can include two or
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: more individuals. This says two people, It can be it
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: can be more poly cool. But yeah, that's that's pretty
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Uh, that's where the name comes from.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Relationshipping shipping.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what with people who are not
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: a part of the fanfic world, because I've noticed this
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: as I'm on like a lot of the K pop
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: yep tiktoks that when they do the shipping. I get
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: very confused thinking it's real because they do this like
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: montage and I'm like, wait, are they is this true?
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I'm very confused, and I think it take it as
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: a reality because when they do that with real people,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I'm very I'm very confused about what just happened.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Essentially, Oh yes, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: that up actually, because I'm not even going to talk
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: about in here, but that is something people do, like
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: we'll make videos, will make this content that you're like,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: wait what.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: And then they'll just like rumored things on there that
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what did that happen? Did that really happen?
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Where they're like the main of course, the ones that
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I've seen the most of has been like Stray Kids
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: and of course BTS, but the BTS one has kind
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: of wavered down, and the stray Kads have a lot
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: more content because of it, Like they're very affectionate kids
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: with each other, Like I'm not sure if they are
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: if they are together, wonderful, But I'm like, y'all are
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: confusing me as a person who has no idea what's
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: happening in this shipping fanfic world. And then you put
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: two real people and then put this like glossy montage
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: of them that I'm like, did that really happen? Is
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: that a thing?
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, it's a whole it's a whole world.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: So confused. And then and I would assume that because
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: they are idols of swords, that the people, the fans
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: would not want them to be together since they're in
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: love with them. I thought or like they had a
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: you know, like but apparently it really is a thing,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: a big thing that they want them to be together.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about this, actually, oh,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: because I think and it's understandable, people get weirded out
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: when people ship real people. And trust me, as we've
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: discussed several times on the show, there are problems with that,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: especially when you start hating on a real life person, right,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: But I also think that a lot of times when
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: people ship real life people, or when they write fanfic
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: about real life people, that's it's not a it's not
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: someone you know, it's not somebody you've ever met, so
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: it is almost like a fictional character in that way.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: And usually one person and we actually are going to
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: talk about this, but there's like a stand in for
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: the person you think you're like and stand in for
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: the person you want to be with. Right.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I feel like you've mentioned that before in our fanfic episodes,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: but like, I found that interesting because it actually has
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: damaged some people's reputations because in things like South Korea
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Asian countries, which is very like homophobic hunt trees, when
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: they did that, there would be rumors swirling about and
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: then like papers that would be coming out be like no,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: that's not true, and having to like separate people so
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: even if they're really good friends, they can't be around
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: each other because of these like made up stories about
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: real people. So I'm like, oh, that's sad, but that's
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: an odd It's such an odd phenomenon when you see
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: fanfic like that go like overlapping real life.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It is interesting. I know I've said it before, but
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I've I've read some fan fiction about myself and I
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, cool to me.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: That's closing way. Do you have a ship? Is there
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: a ship for you and Lauren?
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: There's been a ship between me and Lauren. There's been
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: a ship between me and Bridget. I haven't checked since
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: you came on. I don't know, but oh, I didn't think.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I mean, I guess that makes sense,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: especially if it's about you, And.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, huh, set yourself.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Would I be in that one? Would I be the like,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: the unapproachable one, because isn't that how it goes? It's
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: the hard that's one that gets hard, that's hard, that
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: has to stop it up for one person.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Uh kind of, And I swear we actually are going
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: to talk about this. And I didn't know about this,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: but I was like, oh my god. There's usually I'm
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: usually like the shy, embarrassed yes, and then everyone else
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: that I've been shipped with is like, come to this
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: bar with.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Me, oh dear, which would be hilarious and very fictional,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: because I'm the one like, I'm not going to a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: bar my house and hang out.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: But that's kind of my point is that there's like
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: this understanding of that's funny, this flash, these flashes we
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: get of people online or how we understand them to be,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: so it does feel kind of fictional. Like when I
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: read something like that, I'm like, oh, no, it's not.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: It's obviously not me, but but thank you.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, go to that bar eddie.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Bar touch our hot fingers lightly at each.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Other's drinks so furiously, oh my gosh, and turn around.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe this will be a two part and we haven't
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: even gotten a segad definition.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's too good to get
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: into before we start. So let's jump into the second
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: part of the definition.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so this is from fan lore wiki. Shipping
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and fandom is the act of supporting our wishing for
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a particular romantic relationship that is a het, different sex slash,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: male slash male, fem slash female female, or polly three
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: or more characters ship by discussing it, writing meta about it,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: or creating other types of fan works exploring it. Fans
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: who have and promote favorite ships are called shippers. They
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: might assert that the relationship does exist or will exist
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: in canon, that they would like it to exist, are
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: simply that they enjoy imagining it. Shippers who support multiple
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: ships within a single canon are often referred to as
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: multi shippers, especially if they support those ships equally. The
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: relationships that fans promote or wish for are not all happy,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: fluffy bunny ones. Fans also enjoy enemy slash and wrong shipping.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that more later.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm sorry, I'm so old, but wrong ship.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: It was like, as I know, you send it to
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the wrong address.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I've seen reactions like that, so I don't think you're alone.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: It has got a lot more mainstream though, we're going
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: to talk about. Some shippers support relationships that are portrayed
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: or acknowledged as established in canon. Some shippers like relationships
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: that exist only as subtext, whether intentional or accidental, itself
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: a topic of debate, and some prefer relationships where the
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: characters have no subtext discern bole to non shippers. Some
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: fans ship characters who never even appear in Cannon together.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Later I'll talk about that. It is important to note
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: that some percentage of fans actively do not want their
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: ship to become canon, especially wrong shippers and fans who
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: don't trust the shows and writers to do it right.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Shippers have been known to regret it when their wish
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: came true. There's a very famous example of that we'll
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: talk about. And yes, okay, so I didn't know about this,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: but when I read it, I was like, oh, obviously,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: there's also anti shippers. Are no romos, no romance.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Why does that sound like an insult? I don't like that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: King who actively don't want romance between characters. They can
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: be just as passionate as shippers in their fight against
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: a ship, and some of the earliest online no romos
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: feel that they lost when Moulder and Scully's relationship became canon,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: because if you haven't seen X files, that's actually where
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: shipping the term first showed up. They did, Moulder and
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Scully did eventually get together, and.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: So was it always the plan? Though?
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Oh I don't think so. But yeah. They often say
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: that they want to believe that relationships can be platonic.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Gonna break that down later too. There's a lot to
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: break down in this.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I think this is going to be a two part
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: of right.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: I think we'll see this is fun. We'll all find
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: out together. It is something fandoms love to fight over,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and sometimes in a healthy way and sometimes in a
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: very very very unhealthy way, but it is often something
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: people bond over too. The ship typically has a name,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: and sometimes one of the first questions fans will ask
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: each other when that Dido song came out, I will
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: go down with this ship at became a very popular meme,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: especially because David Boriannis was in that music video and
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Angel Buffy Spike shipping.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Which has a hall a lot of shipping, I'm sure,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: because also has her own little.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: She does she does Buffy the Vampire Slayer is big
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: in this conversation, so you can look forward to that too.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: It's supernatural too. Yeah, I think that's the first notification
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: of me knowing about shipping was of course Dusty l
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: But I was.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Like, what is that? Oh, yes, yes, yes, I.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Feel like that's my theme phrase. What exactly?
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think so as.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: A dragon Con approaches, I think this will come out
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: after Dragon Coon. But one of the first questions I
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: would get sometimes from people when I was dressed as
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: the Winter Soldier would be are you Stucky or are
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you whatever the name is for the Black Widow and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Bucky ship, which I can't remember.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, really, oh yes, I would have thought more Falcon
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and Bucky. Well.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I think after the show came out, because I remember
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: watching that being like, you guys are really leaning into
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: this sexual tension here, and a lot of people texted
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: me and were like, is this what you're talking about
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: with fan fictional? Like yeah, but I hadn't at that point.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I wasn't dressing as the Winter Soldier anymore so much.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just funny to me that people come
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: up and that was what they wanted to know, was
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: who ship?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Interesting?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: And okay? Apparently the ship name for Catnus and Peta
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: from the Hunger Games is penis.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: What do you gotta do?
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Like that? That's so true?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Why that was made up by people who did not
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: want Peta and Gattus to get together. They wanted was
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: his name. I'm so good at not knowing any characters.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I love that I sell like so old and outdated
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: because I can't remember a damn character.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: The funny thing is, you're so much better than me
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: at actors names. I get so much better at character.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the character. I know the act We
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: were fitting together, though, this is this is.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Why we are okay, this is the ship that I
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: just finished Your sentence is the entire time, or that
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: you finished mine.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: That's kind of I translate for you, you translate for me.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they pronounce it penis, but it's
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: pronounced pet and catus, so I feel like it's penis.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Somebody right and let me so.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: The Gillness is the one that made this, Yeah, ship name,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: I hope that's true. That is very funny. Steve Rogers
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: and Tony Stark is Stony. I found this whole like
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: chart of the names and I was laughing so hard
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: it was great. That's pretty good Stony. I mean, come on,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: people do get really excited about the smallest things when
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: they ship something or ship someone, and it'll be like, oh,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: did you see that, Look you've seen me do this. Yes,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: they're in love your honor. Oh. People will write essays
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: affording their theory. They write fan fiction, they make fan art,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: they'll make predictions. They get invested. There are websites dedicated
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: to ships. There are websites dedicated to like anti ships,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: people you don't want to go together. There are tumbler communities.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: There are discords. That's one of my favorite tags and
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: fan fiction was whatever ship discord made me do it?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So yeah, people are into it. And also, yes, the
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: sex and subtext is a big joke, which they hit
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: they had on Supernatural. They did. Oh, but that's basically
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: implying like you're kind of reading into these the meta
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: of the whole thing. In my experience in the fictional
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: shipping world, not celebrities. People largely ship two men. They're
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: often two white men, and often interviews the celebrities who
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: play these characters. Those interviews are used for evidence too,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and they are often asked who they ship. Uh.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I did find it interesting that when it's just shipping,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: it means two men automatically instead of just two people
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: instead of and then having to be like fim ship
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh wait they had.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: To add that.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Well that's interesting.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Well actually, okay, so got welled. Actually yeah you did,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah you did. No, No, you're right, you're right. But
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize this. Once you account for non fan
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: fake specific fan spaces, there are a lot more hetero ships.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: So slash is a very fan fiction name.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Left slash not ship.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Sorry yeah yeah, yeah, So slash is very from fan fiction,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: and I we've talked about the history of it before
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and then fem slash comes from that. And I actually
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: read a really fascinating like nineteen ninety three, what were
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: those called bulletin board you know, those like online bulletin
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: board spaces. Anyway, it was like a little short thing
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: where someone was saying. She was making the point that
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: people who were so supportive of Slash weren't supportive of
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: them Slash, and it was really fascinating because she was like,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I can see you only support this one type of
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: thing and not this other thing, like that really upsets you,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: but this doesn't. It was cool. It was cool.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: That's interesting. I don't know, Like, again, I'm not part
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: of this, but I'm very into the K drama world.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And in that same scope, they really love the bl
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: which we've talked about in the K drama episodes or
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: any typically any Asian episodes, which is like the title is,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: it's not what it sounds like because in the US
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: we're like, what does that boy love? But essentially like
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: ment two men together, and that's kind of the entire
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: it's a whole genre, and they there's so much of
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: that way more than there's about two women in which
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I thought was odd. But again, the people who are
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: eating up this content are typically women.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yep, yep. You can see our fan fiction
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: episode for that. I think I also did one on
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: specifically on Slash. But there's a lot of theories where
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: that is, there's actually like research papers and books about
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: it's interesting.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Is it carries over just like romances especially.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I did find many articles that reported how queer fan
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: fiction helps people come out realize they were queer, and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: so this is a big part of like when you
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: start shipping and you're like, oh, this is queer relationship,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I'm shipping this, and then people will be like, wait
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a minute, let me think about this a bit more.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Which speaking of Yeah, while this term is relatively recent,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: it was first used in nineteen ninety three in regards
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: to exiles fandom, which was my oh maybe I'm queer moment.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: People have been doing this forever. I found really fun
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: examples from like Jane Austen, like Sherlock Holmes way back
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: like it's really fascinating. However, the Internet and social media
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: really allowed for these ship communities to grow, for people
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: to find each other, but it also allowed for bad
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: behavior to be amplified, and it has led to a
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: lot of Internet abuse and interestingly, in the early days,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: shipping was mocked and looked down upon. Sometimes it was
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: even viewed as you saying, like something that you're all
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: enjoying is not perfect, heaven forbid, Like you're not a
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: real fan because you're like wanting more, maybe you're being weird. Uh,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: And people who shipped would get email attacks or harassed.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: But now it's definitely gone mainstream and with that we
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: have seen a lot of issues and it's just funny
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: to me and looking back at this where I'm like,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: now it's just you don't ship who I want you
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: to ship, get to say, the attacks and the harassment.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: But back then, apparently people who ship forgetting that strange.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Can you come a long way? Baby?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes we have. But that brings us to shipping wars,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: which is one of the biggest issues.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So literal, I'm like, you ups wars.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: We should have had you do like your version of
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: what you thought this was this was and compared it.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: It would have been great. So wh from teen Vogue
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: and where they're shipping, there are ship wars aggressive in
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: community beefs between fandom factions that focus on different ships
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: in the same piece of media or fandom. Ship wars
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: have a rich history of stirring up heightened emotion. Back
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: when Buffy the Vampire Slayer dominated online fandom, one of
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the biggest ship wars in fandom history revolved around Buffy's
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: relationships with two of the hottest and most toxic vampires
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: this side of the Vampire Diaries extended universe Spike and Angel. Yes,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: more on that in a second. Oh my gosh. I
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: did see Final Fantasy seven, and I've talked about it
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: on a hear before, But the whole thing in that
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: game was based on decisions you made. You would end
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: up with one of like four people, but really two people,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Tifa and Earth, and people would pick sides like, obviously
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: he should have gone with Earth, Obviously he should have
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: gone with Tifa, and that was kind of programmed into
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the game. That was like, there was this whole thing
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: where Eric died spoilers, but that game's really old, and
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: it would There was this belief if you were nicer
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to her, if you did all these things, if you
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: were in a romantic relationship, she would live, which she wouldn't,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: but there was a belief so that she would. So
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: people really pick sides. Another big one is Team Edward
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: versus Team Jacob from Why Yes And then I totally
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: forgot about this, but when I read about it, I
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh. Yes, the Harmony Wars the Harmonians.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: People were so pissed Samantha. Oh my gosh, there was
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: a whole live journal about killing off Ron Weasley in
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: as many ways as possible, because essentially this was people
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: who thought Harry and Hermione should be together.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean people really hated on Jenny. You really
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: hated Oh, yes, poor actress.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Yes. So this was before a lot of this was
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: happening as people were going online more. Harry Potter is
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: still one of the biggest fan communities fan fiction communities
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that exist. And there was this big break between the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix and before that,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: like so no one knew who was going to end
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: up with whom, but people had all this time to speculate.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: So there was the Harmonians the I think it was
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: called the USS Harmoniums, so it was like a ship anyway,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So they were like really adamant that this was how
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: it was going to go. And then JK. Rowling said
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: in an interview, Oh, no, it's definitely not that, And
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: one of the interviewers said Harmonians were delusional and there's
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: kind of laughter and all the stuff. JK. Rolling backtracked
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: about it. She didn't attach herself to the word delusional,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: but was also kind of like, yeah, but she did
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: say she thought she had dropped these huge hints and
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: that it was obvious who was going to end up
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: with whom. From Claire McBride over at Sci Fi Wire,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: but even early on, the tension between these two factions
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: ran hot. Sugar Quill, one of the first Harry Potter
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: specific Fick archives, refused to accept Harry Hermione fan fiction
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: on the grounds that it was not canon compliant. Interestingly,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: they accepted remiss Serious Fick as canon compliant because you
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: know it was, which may have contributed to the opening
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: of Fiction Alley, which pointedly accepted all ships. Ship specific
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: fan sites and communities became the norm, allowing the factions
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: to more or less peaceably coexist, although the occasional battles
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: still happened up until this point, they trusted that they
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: were correctly reading Rolling's larger plan and that they were
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the only ones doing so. They were heavily invested in
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: not only the veracity of their ship, but the morality
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: of it, valuing a relationship built on friendship over what
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: they saw as a relationship built on conflicts, among many
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: other values they assigned to their ship because they'd invested
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: so heavily in this one ship, to the detriment of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: making wider connections in fandom and developing a diverse interest
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: in the series. Rolling's revelation threatened to invalidate not only
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: their ship but their fandom, so they turned their ire
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: on her. Harmonians began to openly insult Rolling, calling into
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: question her talent as a writer, denigrating her for being divorced,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: and even insulting her personal appearance. One post even indulges
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: in some pearl clutching, wondering if the moral of ron
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: slash Hermione is really one she wants to pass down
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: to her daughters. This ship meant more to them than
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: the fandom did. This is the moment that birth's zero
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: sum shipping, a kind of blind game in ship that
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: only values as ship for whether or not it wins,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: not whether or not it is enjoyable. And of no, oh,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: this was pre Twitter, so this could have been a
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: lot worse. The battle. Yeah, but it was funny because
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: my mom had an opinion on this. She obviously wasn't
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: like dude naos, but she thought it should have been
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: her in her minding. And I remember being like, oh,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Know if I ever had an opinion on it, but
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, it doesn't make as much sense,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: but I get it. Like the side characters, he has
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: his own trauma he doesn't really need. I think that
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: was part like he doesn't need a romance right now,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: he's got too much on his plate.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my mom was very it was
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: she was very blessed about it, but it was just
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: funny because like normally she wouldn't even care have a
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: thought about it, but she did say that. I was like,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, but that kind of that morality that that
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: writer mentioned is a key point of this, because there's
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: this whole idea of like, my ship is better than yours.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Ye right, Because as I said, chips are not new.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: They've been around since we've been telling stories and could
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: have opinions, but they have evolved. It used to be
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and still is largely I would say, a fun thing.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: There are plenty, plenty the majority of people who can
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: ship without being absolutely awful, but it's gotten way more
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: intense as where we are all online and now when
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: someone believes they found the OTP, the one true pairing,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: they think they are right, you are wrong, and it
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: gets heated and outright hateful. Jamie described it as almost
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a religion. A part of this is that you've interpreted
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the media in question correctly, that there is just one
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: right way, one correct pairing, and if that's not, if
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: they don't agree with someone, then they will shame people,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: harass people, shun people, docs people to swap people, even
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: threatened creators.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: How old are the rain for people who like are
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: active on those kind of boards.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it depends on the specific site,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: because I know we've talked about this before. If fan
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: fiction is like my forte so that's what I know
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: off the my head, But like wapad is for younger folks,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: there's another one that more younger people use, And then
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: AO three and fanfic dot Net are like older folks.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And by that I mean I don't know, like my age.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Like what's the older mean?
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: I mean it could go it's I think they're much
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: more like I would say twenty five to forty. Okay,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I think there's more outliers on that than there are wapad.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I could be wrong, which I feel is much younger, right.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I just wondered, because you know, a that's a lot
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: of time and effort to go after and debate with people.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know as people do that, like does it
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: for any all subjects, But I find interesting for fictional
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: characters that level of love and passion, like you have
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: to have some time and dedication for that.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: That's kind of part of the issue. It doesn't have
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: to be an issue, but part of it is if
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: it becomes like a consumed right all of your time
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and someone's telling you in your mind you're wrong, but
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: you've spent all this time on it. You was like,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: looked for all the clues, You've done all of this
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: digging and research, and so it's like you don't get it.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen you watch Star Wars and you're
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: telling me your theories and me just going really and
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: you go, wait no, but this evidence.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Well see. The funny thing is I'm a multi shipper,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: which is yes, I have a lot of ships, and
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: so I can be like I can take evidence and
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: make my case for one couple, and then that same
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: evidence I'll be like, disregard this couple though, which I
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: think is a good way to me.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: So many times I heard do you see that stayre
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: do you see that look don't know. No, you can't
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: tell me.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: People have written it about that. Look data won't look
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: it is. I'm not kidding people know.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I can. I can picture. I picture it
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: the moment you say it. I know what scene I'm
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: talking about because you've done it every time. Yep, every time.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: The dedication to that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: A look, it's a lot, but that's what it is.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And that's like the fun part of it. Like when
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you can just be like yeah, and then you don't
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: mind if someone does it agree with you.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: There was no disagreement. I'm just the nod. You get
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: the nod from me like oh okay, yeah, yeah.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: No, don't derail me because now I just want to
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: talk to that.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I have look that you're having it, like contemplating do
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I go down this road.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I've had more than one friend say I didn't see
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: it before, but now it's you. That's right. Okay. But
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: speaking of from that same article from sci Fi, what
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: was once the love of two characters dynamic has become
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: to a small but outspoken subsection of fans, a zero
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: sum game. How did we get from God, I love
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: seeing these two together to these two need to be together,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: So help me God. And this quote is going back
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: to that teen Vogue article, which I really recommend. I've
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: been a part of several ship wars, never an active
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: participant really, just a member of ships that are fought over,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: and I think it all comes down to wanting to
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: feel right. Fandom, especially fanfic, is all about participating in
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: and taking ownership of the material. Colleen, a pop culture
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: nerd and scholar who made it through the Vultron fandom,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: shares with teen Vogue. Ship war are caused by people
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: wanting their ship to be the number one correct ship,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the only one, and even if it's not canon, it's
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: the one. So you see things like Katong versus Zutara,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: where on the one hand you have people arguing their
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: ship is better because it's canon and it's sweet, and
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: on the other hand arguing for tension and character development.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: In that case, it's a matter of preference and power.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Each ship slash fandom wants to be in charge. Yes,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting because we are going to
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: discuss this more. But that whole like, you go to
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: fan fiction because you can't find relationship you want in
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: canon or maybe they don't do it, and then what
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: happens when it does become canon. But essentially what most
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: of what I read is it comes down to this
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: is the quote unquote healthier relationship versus the quote unquote
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: unhealthier relationship, which is a for uh, you know, debate.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: But yes, creators and celebrities get this abuse to even
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: extending to real life relationships of celebrities. That's something we've
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: talked about before. Some creators have been blackmailed in an
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: attempt to force a ship and make it cannon. Some
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: have been forced off social media, and it gets nasty,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: like people will tear people up who support the opposing ship.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: They will claim that there's is the least problematic ship,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: while pointing out the problematic parts of the opposing ships
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: and people who ship them like it becomes like, well,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: if you like this ship, then that means you're messed
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: up in this way, you're appear to and slash goody
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: two shoes, or you're actually a criminal. Then there is
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: the hate that is heaped onto the characters. As you
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: mentioned with Jenny Weasley, perhaps yeah, usually the cannon ship
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: often a woman who ruined your ship, and the person
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: who created them or played them, people who who did
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: ship with these toxic fans. So if you're like shipping
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: a ship and then all these toxic fans come in,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: sometimes you get forced out of that ship because you're like, well, right,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: you ruined it. Sometimes the creators make it worse with
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: their comments making fun of a ship or being queer baby.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Often they have no idea how much fandom is behind
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a ship. I would say not always, but I feel
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: like a lot of the examples I wrote, I was like,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: why did you say that? Which is a point to
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: an interesting disconnect between creators and their fans. MCU story
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: editor Matthew Schancey, who's responsible for the what if Zombie episode,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: which is that like marvel Kind Alternate Realities animated series,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: reportedly wanted Zombie Captain America to bite off Sharon's lips
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: and spit them out because quote, no one likes her.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Actually he belongs to Peggy, which he might have been
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: joking and maybe not, but it does fuel these fights
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: in this hate. Perhaps he did it intentionally, Perhaps he
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: did it, I don't know.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: My only problem with that whole storyline was, wait, couldn't
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: he beat her grandfather?
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: A great uncle now or something. This whole timeline thing.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like, this doesn't this doesn't bode well.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I would say, I don't think the MCU has done
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: a romance very well. Yes, I know some people disagree
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: with me, but I don't think so.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of a good wood.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would say like WandaVision,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: but I actually don't think so.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: They worked together and then she fell alone with a
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: make belief thing.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that was my biggest hang up of
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: that show was is I was like, I just don't
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: buy your relationship because you just suddenly told me you
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: were dating and then he died.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: And it's also forced anyway from the Yeah, maybe I'm
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: not gonna get hay for that.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: It did, it did, but almost all the relationships in
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: the MCU felt very forced. Yeah, but anyway, anyway, we're
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: gonna get there right. There are even conspiracy theories that
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: for one reason or another something is cannon, but the
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: creators cannot admit it like it is canon. They just
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: can't say it's cannon. A lot and this used to
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: be a big thing in fan fiction, which is kind
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: of a lot of people brought up has kind of
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: gone by the wayside. But it used to be like, oh,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: there was a certain tag for it, but it was like,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, we were playing in our sam box.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Whatever they do, that's the thing that we're playing in
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: our sandbox. Whereas now it's become it's crossed the line
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: into oh, let's yell at them online. But it used
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: to be much more like, Nope, that's that's the powers
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: that be. That's what it was. The powers that be.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: You you, that's what they've decided and that's how it is.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: But I'm going to play in this sandbox. But now
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: it's become like it has to be can and which
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: is part of this issue. Also, yes, we have talked
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: about celebrity shipping, which is essentially, yeah, you're just two
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: real people are more than to real people. Again, but
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: that usually like the unhealthy side of that is definitely
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: that it has real world impacts. That impacts usually like
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: the celebrities new partner again is often a woman, and
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: this has resulted in people being forced off social media,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: celebrities having tor reulease statements asking for people essentially not
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: harassed their partner or their ex like post about mental
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: health and all this, so that's definitely definitely an is sha.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: And then, as Jamie said in the original suggestion for this,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: there are some ships that are truly problematic. And from
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: what I've read, as mentioned, a lot of shipboards do
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: boil down to should person a who is torn between
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: two people go with the bad boy type or the
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: good guide type. And this is not It doesn't mean
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: that the good guys without problems. But I found out
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: this is known as cinemon rule ships versus trash ships,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, trash ships.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Huh trash ships. So from here's a quote about that
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: from Vox. For instance, a ship like Kaylux Kylo Brinn
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: and the minor character Hucks and the Force Awakens might
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: be labeled a trash ship because it's seen as a
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: re presentation of fandom's heavily white status quo your average
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: ubiquitous white dude slash pairing, and a ship like Ika
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Body That's fun name too, Nikobod Crane slash Abbey Mills
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: on Sleepy Hollow might be seen as a Simon roll ship,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: both because of the puereness of their love and because
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: one of its members is a woman of color. Again,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: this is this being fandom, These issues are very layered,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: controversial and complicated. So essentially, a shrash ship is like
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: a ship you ship even though you know it's bad,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: you know it's problematic, you know it's toxic.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: So would would this be the Buffy and Yes what's
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: his name?
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, Buffy and Spike. Yes, yes, I'm gonna talk about
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: that more in a second of so excited you bought that? Yes? Yes,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I did see some recent articles about multi shippers who
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: ship toxic, problematic ships and healthy, wholesome ones, and they
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: were saying, like, it's not mutually exclusive. Sometimes you're all happen.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it just happens. It really does. I should people
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: have like, how did this happen? I never would have guessed.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: But there are also shippers for abusive relationships, for non
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: consensual slash manipulaity of controlling relationships, underage relationships with massive
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: age differences, incest, which is kind of complicated in terms
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: of fanfic because oh yeah, I don't really I don't
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: read it, but I think a lot of times there's
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: an understanding that we all know they aren't actually related.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Plus things like Game of Thrones, like I don't.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Know, because that's the thing about super naturals, the brothers.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: What are you doing.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Wincest yep Oh, one day, I'll come back to that,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: And I'll also come back to ABO, which I've talked
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: about before. We talked about it in our dob com
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: episode Best Answer for Alpha Beta Omega. And it's kind
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: of like a secondary gender political biological type of writing
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: and relationship and those are often very toxic, but they
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: also are interesting in how they explore gender politics. I
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: have a lot of thoughts about that as well, but
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: we won't go into them now because that would be
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: a whole episode. But there's a lot of shipping in
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: that realm that's pretty pretty problematic. Yeah, and then, as
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, wrongshipping.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: I'm just laughing about so many things right now.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, So back to that fan lore wiki article. When
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: a fanship's two characters who really shouldn't be together, they
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: are wrong shipping. Wrong shipping isn't a judgment about a
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: fan of shipping preferences, but the recognition that the characters
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: in question would be a hot mess together. Wrong shipping
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: can also be used when the fan is in support
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: of a pairing other than the cannon o TP. So
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: this is sort of like, yeah, they won't gotcha.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna assume from now on, I'm on, I'm
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: not on this, which I assume from the beginning, which
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: you were like you got some parts, I was like, why.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I put a minute in it.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: I was just like, well, because I like me saying
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: that would be so out of context. I have no
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: idea why I'm saying this. I got it, So I'm
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: just I'm just gonna go with that. So I'm like, yeah,
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: I have no idea what that just happened.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: That's that's what it's like when you get in the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: world of shipping, some man, you get lost lost in
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: the shipping. And then related that at the top, I
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: mentioned like antis, non romos, no romos. Actually this is
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: sort of different because there's a difference between people who
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: don't want any ship, like maybe they just don't want romance,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: versus people who actively don't want a certain ship and
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: they have gotten in on this toxicity too. And I
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: found this quote from geek Dad. The most aggressive of
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the bunch is a new subset of shippers collectively known
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: as antis from the practice oft tacking things anti ship
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: name on social media. It's a term these toxic members
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: of fandom. We're proudly Despite its association with combative behavior,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: ANTIS appear to be a response to, among other factors,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: changes in how fans interact online. As fans move from
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: sites like live journal, where content was opt in, to Tumblr,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: where content is opped out, the method in which fans
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: consumed content changed. Thanks to ANTIS. The old adage of
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: early fandom don't like, don't read yep or the idea
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that consumers are response for avoiding content they don't like,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: has been replaced with discourse, death threats, and violence. Discussions
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: shifted from I don't like this too, no one should
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: like this. This often involves moral arguments. It's sort of
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: devolved into I can morally prove you're a terrible person
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: for this ship to destroy it. I thought that was
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: so interesting because we've talked before. I love the history
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: of how those technologies impact right our discourse, and in
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: this case, I didn't know that that's really cool. I
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: mean not cool, but like I'm glad to know it.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: You can on a three you can be like I
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: don't want this shift to show up, but it doesn't
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: like populate like how Tumblr it would be like you
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: find all of this stuff that's like I hate this ship.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: It's more like than that ship just won't show up. Yeah,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the quote goes on. Anti arguments may shift every time,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: but the critical thing to note is one competing popular
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: pairings pairings that share characters with the anti favored pairing
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: are always problematic, and two, the anti preferred pairing is
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: never problematic. If you take nothing else from this article,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: please take this all. This outrage isn't about protecting children,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: or about morality or about critiquing media. It's about people
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: wanting their favorite characters to kiss. It's true. It's so
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: true though because it is, it gets real nasty the
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: things people will say about like why your ship is awful?
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: But really it does come down to probably just one
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: of these these people kids.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of the thirty Rock episode
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: in which the daughter of the owner of the company
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: it just really likes soap operas and she's because the ship.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: There was a whole ship with Tina's face character and
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Alec Baldwo's character. Again, I don't remember the character's names,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: any of their characters, and then and then so like
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: they played I'm going kiss, Kiss kiss and they're like, Nope,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: you can't do this because I chatted it. But like,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: we know, there actually was a shipping for the two
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: of them to be together for a while.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Which is a yeah, well it's funny. One of the
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: stories I'm reading right now, the author left a you
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: can read the notes at the ends, and they just
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: wrote make like smashing their faces together like two barbies,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I mean, essentially, the quote continues.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Despite all of this negativity, I believe fandom is an
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: incredibly positive thing. I'm gay and the first time I
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: ever saw a gay character and a story was in
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: fan fiction. Fan Fiction gave me stories about people like
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: me when I couldn't find them anywhere else. That is
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: the power of transformative media like fanfic and fan art.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: In a world where so many people don't get to
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: see themselves on TV, fandom can offer them a place
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: where they can be the hero of the story they
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: know and love. Fandom enables anyone to create with an
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: established world. It enables writers to create stories that go
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: beyond the canon media, and gives artists the power to
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: explore new scenes and what ifs. There are thousands of
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: people right now creating this content for free simply because
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: they enjoy it. And I do think that's I always
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: try to make this point because there's critiquing media is healthy.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: We all like problematic things, but there's a way to
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: do that healthily. There's a way to do that without
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: threatening people or yelling at people, harassing people. And it's
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: funny to me the ways technology like this all started
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: as sort of an attempt to better control content searches
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: on Tumblr. So when they were like, you can put
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: in this anti whatever tag it was, they were trying
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: to clamp down on like bad behavior honestly, then it
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: led to this. So that's just interesting to me. And
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: also back to what you were saying, when it becomes
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: a part of your identity and then that it becomes
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: so personal and it just you can't see anything else
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: like this is it has to be this way because
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: so important to me. Another thing that Jamie brought up
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: was this sort of forcing of romance or this prioritizing
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: of romance. And I talked about this recently because yes,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: I have been posting fan fiction and never but there
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: is this I found myself writing romance and I actually
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: it's like released romance which I think makes sense. It's
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: much more like holding hands type of romance and anything else.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: But but I did get in my head about like
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: it just feels so much of what I read that romance,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: romantic love is seen as more powerful love, like the
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: most powerful love, as compared to friendship. And so it
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: can be strange when you're reading all this stuff like that,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: you're writing stuff like that, and you're asexual, you know,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Like I have found, especially within the past couple of years,
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: a lot more depictions of asexual characters and even asexual
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: romances where you know, they have the talk and they're like, yeah,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I just like kissing but nothing more, and they're like, okay, cool.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: And I have seen more non sexual relationships, but a
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: lot of times that's what it is, like a good
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: amount of times, like maybe not the whole thing, but
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: it's in there somewhere. And as we've discussed before, there's
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: also that strange tight rope of for so long women
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: have been shamed for wanting sex, and so I'm like,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: embrace it, embrace it, but also at the same time,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that for everybody. So it's
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: sort of strange there. And I've also been thinking about
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: this too, of this understanding that everyone sees romance the
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: same way or they must all want it, which isn't true.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: And I think that comes up a lot of times
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: in shipping wars, because if you're finding like your evidence,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: not everybody sees that evidence the same way, you know
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: what I mean, Like even if like you don't agree, right,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: but like some people might see something as romantic and
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: other people might see it's like not romantic at all. Yeah,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: So there's that difference too. And I do think this
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: is tricky because I've heard before this argument why can't
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: they just be friends, especially between two men who have
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: just a close relationship, Why does it have to be romantic?
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: And I think that it speaks to a couple of things.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: The fact that we put men in a box where
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: they can't be emotionally vulnerable with other men are physically affectionate,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: so that's like, look at how they're being so emotionally vulnerable,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: they must be in love. And the fact that women
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: are always through romantic interest in so much of media,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: And the fact that we don't have enough queer storylines
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: in mainstream media, especially front center. So it's sort of like,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: as we say so often we just need more representative,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: diverse stories, so we're not always like it's so desperate
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: for this queer story, though, can't it be them? But
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: also have platonic relationships. And then there's been arguments about
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: fetishizing homosexuality in that way too, which is certainly certainly
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: a part of it. This is sort of a separate issue,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: but I wanted to mention it. When the media reports
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: on this, especially fan fiction, they find the most bizarre
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: fan fiction. I'm almost always like, I think you might
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: actually read fan fiction because you have plumbed the depths,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: you've found something, You've found something. And I read a
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: lot and I have never seen this and either make
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: fun of it for celebrities to read it, or frame
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: it as this depravity of young girls and make an
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: argument about why we need to censor things. So that
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of times with shipping wars and gets in
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: the news and they're reading fan fiction and it's like
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: the wildest thing I've ever heard, and I've read some stuff.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Oh and this was about a specific incident where it
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: was at a convention and a fan that is a
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: supernatural convention. I think a fan got up to ask
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: about I don't know, but everyone thought they were going
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: to ask about shipping. No, it wasn't that. They later
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: found this fan and it wasn't that, But that's what
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: everyone thought, and they got removed by security.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Even before they could ask the question. Wow.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, And so here's the quote from hyperbole about that.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: What is so horrible about slash shipping and asking the
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: actors about it? Why should asking Aqules about whether Dean
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: might possibly have feelings for Castiel be more taboo than
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: asking him about Dean slash Lisa, whether he thinks Dean
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: should die at the end of the series, or what
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: his favorite moment filming season eight was. For those who
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: claim that they've been asked about slash shipping a million
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: times and that it just makes everyone uncomfortable, this might
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: be the case, sure, but these guys do like twenty
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: conventions a year. Do you really think that there's one
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: single question which you could pop sssibly asked them which
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: they haven't had to answer at least a dozen times before.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: The difference seems to be that some fans believe it
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: is harassment to force the actors to confront the possibility
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: that their characters might be homosexual. So singling out slash
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: shipping or shipping in general, when there is so much
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: more that might be awkward for the actors to be
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: confronted with. That is problematic whether you're an actor, a creator,
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: or a fan. I have to question the logic that
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: slash shipping is cool as long as we don't talk
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: about it, don't ask, don't tell really fandom, which was
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: a good point. I do hate going to these like
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Q and A things because it's always like, what are
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: they going to ask? But it's true they've heard these
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: questions like a million times, all of them haven't. It's
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: not like an original question. I went and saw one
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: actor once and he just was like, I'm not going
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: to do the Q and A because I hear the
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: same questions all the time. And he just went down
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: a list of questions and answer. I was like, yeah,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: probably you would know. Yeah. And then from Vox, here's
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: a quote conflating ships that involve underrepresentative identities with the
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: desire for inclusion. Gets especially dicey when it leads fans
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: to prioritize support for their ship over other intersexual concerns.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: For example, and teen Will fandom fans of the Steric
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: ship Derek slash styles have frequently accused the show of
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: queer baiting or exploiting their specific queer male pairing without
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: any intention of following through on it, even though the
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: show's creator, Jeff Davis, is a gay man who has
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: already inserted several queer relationships in the show storylines, and
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: even though Steric as it currently exists in canon is
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: a physically abusive relationship. The prioritization of a ship at
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: the expense of another intersectionality concerns is also present on
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: The one hundred, which earlier this year featured a queer
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: canonical relationship between main character Clark and the warrior queen
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: Lexa aka Klexa. Klexa fans have been so focused on
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: advocating for Klexa, even after the ship effectively ended with
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Lexus on time death, that they've come under fire for
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: ignoring the many elements of the show that some feels
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: are racist and problematic. M Yeah, I think that's a
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: that's a really good point as well, because when you
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: when you're just attacking people who don't like your ship
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: and you're not thinking of anything else, it's not a
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: good look. It's not a good look. Yeah. Yeah, as
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: sort of wrap up here, I did mention I was
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: gonna say my thoughts. So I I do ship, even
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: though I am an ace ace person, but a lot
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: of times I ship. I found a really fun article
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: about the fun of shipping No One, someone who's never
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: gonna end up together. It's kind of nice. You're kind
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: of like you find your little niche pandom of all
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: of your your like online friends we will never meet
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: or talk to, but you're kind of like we're the
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: ones that, like the ship that we know is never
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: going to be cannon. We never once thought it would be.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: It's just no chance of it. And I think there
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: has been a couple of things I've shipped where people
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: have gotten upset and they're like, I can't believe I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: thought they would end up together. And sometimes I'm honestly
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: so surprised. I'm like, you really, I never actually thought
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: this was gonna happen, but you did. Eh, And I
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: get I feel bad. It does suck when you're like, oh,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: that didn't go how I wanted it to go. But also,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: as we've been talking about, sometimes fans do regret when
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: their ship happens, like with Buffy and Spike and you know,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: like a tempted rape that happened in their relationship. And
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: sometimes the ship happens and they break up or they're
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: killed off. Like it's not like if your ship does
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: become cannon, everything's going to be the best thing and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: the happiest thing. And I think, like going back to
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: like not trusting the creators. I just have been hurt
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: so hard. It's not that I don't trust them, but
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeo, I'm gonna be much happier if i
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: just do this in my own world and does it
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: become right. I don't need your drama and your studios influencingness.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: I just will go over here and be let me.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not about that either. It's about what
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: fans believe they should have gotten. Canon romances are often
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: looked down upon, and there are people who feel like
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: me and maybe want a ship to happen, but ultimately
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: don't want that entertainment in question to really change. So
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: like you don't want it to become a rom com suddenly,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: but you kind of don't want the relationship to happen,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: but you have fun imagining it and sharing it with others,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: and yes, it can be lonely to ship someone barely
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: anyone else does, but it can be very fun. Can
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: be very fun. Here's another quote for teen Vogue. Shipping
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: oriented fandom is all about transformation. For many shippers. The
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: pairings we put together in fandom are that come together
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: in a series or on a gossip site are the
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: first time many of us get to see ourselves and
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: relationships that echo the ones we have. Whether it's a
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: queer ships as a gateway to understanding your own identity,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: or fans of color or highlighting ships that center characters
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: of color. The goal of shipping has been to fill
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: gaps and provide room for fans to play with emotional
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: connections from box. For fans feeling fatigue over an imbattle
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: struggle to make a ship cannon, and the crushing disappointment
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: of setbacks or failure, it might help to remember that
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: ships don't have to be cannon in order to be
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: transformative and meaningful on both a personal and cultural level.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Look at Star Trek's Kirk slash Spock Sperk. That ship
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: never became canon, but it remains one of the most
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: compelling ships ever created, and within cannon, it gave us
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: one of pop culture's most enduring symbols of love, there
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: are hands touching through the glass. Henry Jenkin's famously said
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: that queer fan fiction is what happens when you take
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: away the glass. And sure, it's increasingly possible that savvy
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: creators might go ahead and take away the glass for us,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't negate the power of fans being able
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: to do it on their own without anyone's help. I
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: love that. It's so funny, it's so true. That's it.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: Do you look for the clues their hands touching to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: the glass, and then you take away the glass?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, I feel like you having a moment here.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: I am, I am. And then to close out, I
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: have this thing I found from more Stand on Tumblr.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: And this is a while back. I found like all
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: of this old archive like Fanish stuff, like nineteen ninety three.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: I was researching this. Very cool. I don't know when
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: it happened, but somewhere along the way, shipping got a
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: new meaning for younger folk that seems to translate to
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: I want these people together for real asap. I think
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: the media had something to do with it, guys. Shipping
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: absolutely does not mean demanding anything from people slash creators.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Shipping isn't about expecting and waiting for the day it
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: will certainly happen. It is not a direct translation to
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: happen or die. Shipping means you like the idea of
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: two or more people together. You like the concepts, You
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: find it fun to imagine the dynamics, You even create
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: fan and content of it, thick art edits. It's all
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: on your head and it's fine that way. Is it
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: nice to have a ship become cannon? Oh my god, Yes,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: but that's not what shipping is about. And y'all need
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: to take a step back and breathe, because being a
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: jerk to people ain't gonna change their mind about ships. Yep, yeah,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I just want to say, two people, and
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: you know who you are, uh, who've watched good omens
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: and you're happy. I'm happy for you. Vague I told
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: you I didn't spoilet, But okay, yes, I mean, like
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: all things we talk about, there's obviously really bad behavior,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: but there's really good behavior too, and a lot of
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: it is that and it can be so fun and
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: so beautiful and I love that too. Of like the
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: idea just because it doesn't become canon doesn't mean it
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: can't be transformative. So yes, our shipping episode.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Like towards and you just went going faster and faster
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: trying to make it.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I also will say I wrote an essay
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: about this for Jamie that you can find about my
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: thoughts about shipping. But that's what I have to say
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: for now. So thank you Jamie for this suggestion. And yeah,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, if you have
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: any thoughts about this, I'm sure that you do. You
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: can email us stephanium Mom Stuff at ihartmedia dot com.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most up podcast,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One Never told you.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: We have a tea public store. We also have a
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: book that you can order. It is available at stuff
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: you should read books dot com. Thanks as always to
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: your super producer Christina or executive producer Maya and our
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: contributor Joey.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say talking about shit, but it wasn't
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: gonna be right, So thank you.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Me his production of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio, you can check out the art
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: radio app Apple Podcasts or regulus to your favorite shows,